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	<title>Comments on: You go girls! Part II</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/17/you-go-girls-part-ii/</link>
	<description>I am an astronomer, writer, and skeptic. I likes reality the way it is, and I aims to keep it that way. My real name is Phil Plait, and I run the Bad Astronomy blog.</description>
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		<title>By: Rimantas</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/17/you-go-girls-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-90158</link>
		<dc:creator>Rimantas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 May 2008 16:43:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/17/you-go-girls-part-ii/#comment-90158</guid>
		<description>Well is somebody made to this point, see this also:
http://www.mindhacks.com/blog/2008/05/free_choice_and_the_.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well is somebody made to this point, see this also:<br />
<a href="http://www.mindhacks.com/blog/2008/05/free_choice_and_the_.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.mindhacks.com/blog/2008/05/free_choice_and_the_.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: KMR</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/17/you-go-girls-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-90157</link>
		<dc:creator>KMR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 05:15:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/17/you-go-girls-part-ii/#comment-90157</guid>
		<description>The level of the discourse on this topic is very sad.  S. Thomson does a great job of setting up a strawman (especially item 2, which NOBODY has even implied) and then destroying it.  Zar also earns an A+ in Strawman  Construction and Destruction 101, with extra points for the phrase &quot;cootie-fied&quot;; I applaud Jim G.&#039;s restraint in his response.

Why do some people seem so threatened by the notion that there are sex-related, heritable differences in interests and aptitudes?  Look at our closest cousins, the primates - all of them exhibit substantial differentiation in behavior between males and females.  Look at the evolutionary history of Homo Sapiens - why would we expect that we have erased the evolutionary pressures that differentiate male and female behavior?  See any number of Dawkins&#039; works, or Steven Pinker&#039;s popular books for supporting evidence (quickly dons asbestos suit in anticipation of the Lewontin, Rose, and Gould apologists showing up en masse ...).

None of this says that science and engineering are the exclusive province of males.  No reasonable person denies that females have had major obstacles to overcome in access to many academic fields, and that such obstacles have often been in place from early childhood.  No reasonable person fails to do what he/she can to erase those barriers, and looks forward to the day when those barriers no longer exist at all (and no reasonable person can deny that those barriers are today much less important than even 20 years ago).  But no intellectually honest person can deny that, across statistically significant samples, sex is a significant factor in aptitude and interests.  (Note that I did not say the major factor or the most significant factor, so build your strawmen on somebody else&#039;s back, thank you very much.)

It&#039;s great when girls / women do great at science.  It&#039;s great when boys / men do great at science; plenty of them got horribly abused in all levels of school for being &quot;geeks&quot;, &quot;nerds&quot;, or for people of color, &quot;acting white&quot; (see the work of the economist Roland Fryer about this).  But what&#039;s even better is when people get to pursue their dreams and do the stuff that really makes them happy, whether that leads to equal outcomes for the sexes in science and engineering or not!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The level of the discourse on this topic is very sad.  S. Thomson does a great job of setting up a strawman (especially item 2, which NOBODY has even implied) and then destroying it.  Zar also earns an A+ in Strawman  Construction and Destruction 101, with extra points for the phrase &#8220;cootie-fied&#8221;; I applaud Jim G.&#8217;s restraint in his response.</p>
<p>Why do some people seem so threatened by the notion that there are sex-related, heritable differences in interests and aptitudes?  Look at our closest cousins, the primates &#8211; all of them exhibit substantial differentiation in behavior between males and females.  Look at the evolutionary history of Homo Sapiens &#8211; why would we expect that we have erased the evolutionary pressures that differentiate male and female behavior?  See any number of Dawkins&#8217; works, or Steven Pinker&#8217;s popular books for supporting evidence (quickly dons asbestos suit in anticipation of the Lewontin, Rose, and Gould apologists showing up en masse &#8230;).</p>
<p>None of this says that science and engineering are the exclusive province of males.  No reasonable person denies that females have had major obstacles to overcome in access to many academic fields, and that such obstacles have often been in place from early childhood.  No reasonable person fails to do what he/she can to erase those barriers, and looks forward to the day when those barriers no longer exist at all (and no reasonable person can deny that those barriers are today much less important than even 20 years ago).  But no intellectually honest person can deny that, across statistically significant samples, sex is a significant factor in aptitude and interests.  (Note that I did not say the major factor or the most significant factor, so build your strawmen on somebody else&#8217;s back, thank you very much.)</p>
<p>It&#8217;s great when girls / women do great at science.  It&#8217;s great when boys / men do great at science; plenty of them got horribly abused in all levels of school for being &#8220;geeks&#8221;, &#8220;nerds&#8221;, or for people of color, &#8220;acting white&#8221; (see the work of the economist Roland Fryer about this).  But what&#8217;s even better is when people get to pursue their dreams and do the stuff that really makes them happy, whether that leads to equal outcomes for the sexes in science and engineering or not!</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Gee</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/17/you-go-girls-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-90156</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Gee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 02:03:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/17/you-go-girls-part-ii/#comment-90156</guid>
		<description>A few comments here (like the &quot;Robotics Club is for girls&quot; one above) have me worrying. I teach at a community college. At a recent class, every single girl in the class had done a particularl assignment, but only one guy had. Girls in general seem better prepared and get higher grades. I&#039;m not just noticing this in my own classes, but those of my colleagues.

Certainly women are achieving more, both in the sciences and humanities, and I&#039;m not knocking that. Good for them. But I&#039;m worried that at least part of the reason may also be that the guys of the current generation are slacking. I&#039;m not sure why - the usual suspects of video games, poor role models, or what. But it&#039;s worrisome.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few comments here (like the &#8220;Robotics Club is for girls&#8221; one above) have me worrying. I teach at a community college. At a recent class, every single girl in the class had done a particularl assignment, but only one guy had. Girls in general seem better prepared and get higher grades. I&#8217;m not just noticing this in my own classes, but those of my colleagues.</p>
<p>Certainly women are achieving more, both in the sciences and humanities, and I&#8217;m not knocking that. Good for them. But I&#8217;m worried that at least part of the reason may also be that the guys of the current generation are slacking. I&#8217;m not sure why &#8211; the usual suspects of video games, poor role models, or what. But it&#8217;s worrisome.</p>
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		<title>By: S. Thomson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/17/you-go-girls-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-90155</link>
		<dc:creator>S. Thomson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 20:46:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/17/you-go-girls-part-ii/#comment-90155</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t mean to target Rimantas, but make a general comment on the theory that women &quot;on average aren&#039;t interest in the hard sciences and in engineering, so we shouldn&#039;t worry about the disparity, because they have freedom to choose, y&#039;aknow&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t mean to target Rimantas, but make a general comment on the theory that women &#8220;on average aren&#8217;t interest in the hard sciences and in engineering, so we shouldn&#8217;t worry about the disparity, because they have freedom to choose, y&#8217;aknow&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: S. Thomson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/17/you-go-girls-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-90154</link>
		<dc:creator>S. Thomson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 20:39:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/17/you-go-girls-part-ii/#comment-90154</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I should stay away from topic like this.&lt;/i&gt;

Or rather, you should make some effort to discover the state of anthropological and sociological research in the fields of science and technology, and specifically the gender disparity therein, before you make unfounded claims based on articles you read on CNN or wherever.

Your claims about &quot;interest&quot; are predicated on a rather shakey argument:

1) Our interests are entirely or mostly determined by our gender, or by other genetic factors.  This assumption is generally based on the stereotype that men are good with logic and tools, while women are good with emotions, language, and interpersonal relationships.

2) The process of knowledge-making was handed down by god or the universe or something, and should not be tampered with at all. Seemingly, it was perfectly designed for men and their logical, tool-loving minds, which is why there are so many men in science and so few women. To alter that would only be a detriment to science/an affront to god/whev.

2) Given #1 and # 2, women are less likely to do science because it overwhelmingly deals with logic and tools. Wait, hold on, ignore the report-writing, the client-meeting, the grant-funding, the shmoozing, and the grad-student-herding. Also ignore the fact that women are also under-represented in fields that require a tremendous amount of interpersonal relating, like politics and business.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I should stay away from topic like this.</i></p>
<p>Or rather, you should make some effort to discover the state of anthropological and sociological research in the fields of science and technology, and specifically the gender disparity therein, before you make unfounded claims based on articles you read on CNN or wherever.</p>
<p>Your claims about &#8220;interest&#8221; are predicated on a rather shakey argument:</p>
<p>1) Our interests are entirely or mostly determined by our gender, or by other genetic factors.  This assumption is generally based on the stereotype that men are good with logic and tools, while women are good with emotions, language, and interpersonal relationships.</p>
<p>2) The process of knowledge-making was handed down by god or the universe or something, and should not be tampered with at all. Seemingly, it was perfectly designed for men and their logical, tool-loving minds, which is why there are so many men in science and so few women. To alter that would only be a detriment to science/an affront to god/whev.</p>
<p>2) Given #1 and # 2, women are less likely to do science because it overwhelmingly deals with logic and tools. Wait, hold on, ignore the report-writing, the client-meeting, the grant-funding, the shmoozing, and the grad-student-herding. Also ignore the fact that women are also under-represented in fields that require a tremendous amount of interpersonal relating, like politics and business.</p>
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		<title>By: Rimantas</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/17/you-go-girls-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-90153</link>
		<dc:creator>Rimantas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 10:16:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/17/you-go-girls-part-ii/#comment-90153</guid>
		<description>I think we have a new kind of pareidolia here - seeing sexism (and racism for that matter) whenever possible. Well…
@Kutsuwamushion, I am sorry, but I do not believe that you have read that article at all. If anything is sexist, it is your attitude and argumentation. Well, lesson learned - I should stay away from topic like this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we have a new kind of pareidolia here &#8211; seeing sexism (and racism for that matter) whenever possible. Well…<br />
@Kutsuwamushion, I am sorry, but I do not believe that you have read that article at all. If anything is sexist, it is your attitude and argumentation. Well, lesson learned &#8211; I should stay away from topic like this.</p>
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		<title>By: csrster</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/17/you-go-girls-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-90152</link>
		<dc:creator>csrster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 07:50:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/17/you-go-girls-part-ii/#comment-90152</guid>
		<description>I tend towards the view that the best way to find out if women and men really have different natural aptitudes in different fields is to start by eliminating all the social and economic barriers which might lead to different outcomes for men and women, wait a couple of generations for the transients to die away, and then look and see how the numbers shake out. That&#039;s the scientific way to do it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I tend towards the view that the best way to find out if women and men really have different natural aptitudes in different fields is to start by eliminating all the social and economic barriers which might lead to different outcomes for men and women, wait a couple of generations for the transients to die away, and then look and see how the numbers shake out. That&#8217;s the scientific way to do it.</p>
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