For those of you who complain in the comments when I talk about creationism, I suggest you go read what PZ posted, and then accept the fact that I will never back down. Ever.
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Phil Plait, the creator of Bad Astronomy, is an astronomer, lecturer, and author. After ten years working on Hubble Space Telescope and six more working on astronomy education, he struck out on his own as a writer. He has written two books, dozens of magazine articles, and 12 bazillion blog articles. He is a skeptic, and fights misuses of science as well as praising the wonder of real science.
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May 20th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
Read it. Commented on it. Still friggin’ PO’d about it.
Can that stat be true, that the very teachers we support in the teaching of science are creationists?
Cripes.
May 20th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
You go, Phil! Never surrender!!
That is so disturbing! I’ts one of those things you suspect is true but hope isn’t.
sigh…
May 20th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
Well, *I* would back down only under a single circumstance: *evidence* has been presented in a reputable peer-reviewed journal and survived peer-review which demonstrates a young earth.
In other words, Phil, I agree with you, I too will never back down!
John
May 20th, 2008 at 4:21 pm
That is truly depressing, the hundreds and hundreds of kids under those 16% that have been corrupted out of the truth of science.
May 20th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
Thank goodness I dodn’t end up with anyone in that 16%. Good grief. That’s just way too high. Our educators are supposed to be educated, for the love of the IPU!
May 20th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
Phil don’t listen to the whiners. BA Blog is a great read every single day. Keep up the good fight.
May 20th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
On the other side 75% of biology teachers believed humans developed over millions of years (or in other words, though evolutionary means).
Just a “cup is half full” viewpoint, or in this case, three-quarters full.
Back in my freshmen high school days, my fall semester Earth Science teacher was an atheist and my Spring semester one was a YEC Creationist. I remember the latter wanting us to write a short essay on what Easter meant to them (it wasn’t for a grade or anything), which was really strange. Afterwards, he would talk to any students who wanted to about the meaning if they had more questions. It was memorable because my friend and lab partner simply wrote “it means three days without having to listen to you!”.
May 20th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Indeed! Keep up the good fight BA!
May 20th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
Unfortunately, there are plenty of science teachers whose knowledge of science is as sketchy as their beliefs would suggest.
I still shudder when I think of the chemistry teacher who taught his students that a photon was an electron that gives off light. The same guy claimed that “scientists” were working on a car that used hydrogen in a fuel cell, then electrolyzes the water to make more hydrogen. I actually couldn’t get him to understand that that would be a perpetual motion machine.
May 20th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
You may have also seen this depressing 3 minute recent news item about creationists hijacking science exhibits in Denver with their own tours.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE0ar1rf1BU
The segment does end however on a slightly positive note as one of the Denver Science Museum staff, raised in a creationist household, was able to rise above creationism to become a scientist and critical thinker. The very end introduces a welcomed touch of humor revealing the utter stupidity of creationism.
They point out that creationists see evolution as an attack on their faith. I would say that what they have is a political movement masquerading as a religion. Evolution as well as reason threatens their ability to politically control people.
May 20th, 2008 at 5:10 pm
I went to a Catholic school and received a fairly thorough scientific education, mostly from Nuns. There was a clear delineation between the science classes and religion classes. When a student would point out that the science we were learning disagreed completely with the bible, the Nuns (Nuns mind you) would tell them that one does not read the bible to learn about science.
Meanwhile, students in public schools seem to be taking their chances as to whether they will learn real science or religious nuttery.
It is a bassackwards world. Keep fighting.
May 20th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down Phil. Even tough i’m a cristian, I know that creationism and ID is BS… keep fighting.
May 20th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
So *half* of the general public in the US believe ‘god did it’ in the last 10,000 years? I feel for you people, and I pity them.
Still, at least you can say that three quarters of HS Biology teachers express the view that human beings developed over millions of years. At least that’s something; I mean they do form a clear majority. And of them, a clear third believe that god had no part in the process.
Even so, I’m genuinely sorry. If you want to break the chain of misinformation, you’ve got to start at an early age. Prevent the faithful from polluting the classroom in the first place, and don’t let go.
You’re doing all the right things are far as I can see Phil.
BigBob
May 20th, 2008 at 5:24 pm
I had a “science” teacher in 7th grade (a long time ago) whose entire course mostly consisted of the dangers of stray radiation in the fruit we eat. For example, “Never, ever eat the skin of an apple! You could pick up a stray particle of beta radiation and develop cancer.”
Point being, that bad science teachers are not a rare phenomenon, nor are they limited to tellers of creationist fairy tales.
May 20th, 2008 at 5:33 pm
Does anyone know what the trend is? Is it getting better, or are our biology teachers sliding toward the middle of the 1st century?
May 20th, 2008 at 5:42 pm
Those stats can’t be true. I simply don’t buy that nearly half of the general population believe the earth is less than 10,000 years old. Half the general population! I didn’t even think half of all Christians believed in a literal young earth theory. As a Christian myself–which I’m sure invalidates all or most of my opinions on this site anyway
–I didn’t even know that a young earth theory was even a POSSIBILITY until about five years ago.
In the grand scheme of things, sure it sucks that the students being taught by that 16% are losing out on learning about evolution. But jeez, how many of us had at least one bad teacher in at least one subject. I had a U.S. history teacher who said that the “D” in D-Day stood for “destruction.” Remembering back to my own biology class, the evolution section was such a small part of the overall year. We spent way more time discussing the makeup of cells and bodily systems and whatnot. It kind of makes me scratch my head why the whole evolution this is even such a big debate… for both sides. In the end, anyone who is destined for great things in science isn’t going to be stopped by the crackpots who try to teach philosophy in science class. They too will “overcome” the bad science.
May 20th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
And let me quick say that yes I know there is a huge difference between getting a fact wrong and neglecting an entire theory. It was just a quick example of a bad teacher and how we all get them at one point or another.
May 20th, 2008 at 5:58 pm
I see there is a little more optimism here than on PZ’s thread. I left a comment over there about having a more balanced perspective and was completely ignored.
Simply stated, America is still a very religious and very conservative nation. The British Conservative party, even under Margaret Thatcher, would be considered to be more in line with mainstream Democrats than Republicans, and the same goes for many other nations in Western Europe. The same goes for religion.
So I don’t see the 16% as all that depressing. Given the ongoing demographic decline of religious belief in young Americans, that 16% is likely the high-water mark for creationists in the classroom for a long time to come. My expectation is that within the next decade it will be more like 10-12% and even lower after that.
While there are still plenty of reasons to remain vigilant and the battles in the schools and the courts will go on, it’s good to pause and take a deep breath once in a while and remember that we have come a long way in the last 50 years. Not as far as people hoped, no doubt, but the war will be won eventually, that is for certain.
May 20th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
Chip, that clip was depressing. I only wish that there was a disclaimer saying that the children were paid actors.
May 20th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
In 8th grade Life Science, I was ever so lucky to have one of the 16%’ers as a teacher. He taught us some basic biology, some facts about photosynthesis and sugars, the typical stuff.
Then, inexplicably, we drew pictures of fish.
For a month.
For a grade.
I later realized that that particular point in the year was when the state curriculum had slotted time for teaching evolution. I do remember him saying something about being “born-again” in class, but at least he ignored evolution, rather than spend that time trying to refute it.
Of course, he was also the football coach. When I had Biology the next year… it was the basketball coach.
I learned everything I know about biology in college.
May 20th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
@Brian “Those stats can’t be true. I simply don’t buy that nearly half of the general population believe the earth is less than 10,000 years old. Half the general population!”
I didn’t believe it either until I started talking to people I knew (not close friends but acquaintances and friends of friends) about this, and found that many of them DO believe the earth is 10,000 years old or younger.
They all repeated the canard that “There’s no evidence for evolution.”
Talk to people you wouldn’t normally talk to about this issue and I think you will be sadly surprised at the dire level of ignorance.
May 20th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
However, I’ve found that a lot of people just don’t care. I *almost* find that more depressing, although willful ignorance is still worse. On occasion when I’m teaching, I try to get people to see the wonder of the universe (ie. sending them to Bad Astronomy!
and science. This is probably where we need to start. So many people just don’t care, and obediently recite what their pastor told them to say. Everybody sort of likes science, but we have to get people to really like it and *want to learn*. This is why shows like the MythBusters and Skeptologists need to be on TV! So many people really just don’t want to learn new things.
May 20th, 2008 at 7:22 pm
That’s truly depressing, fortunately growing up my mind was not polluted with religious drivel, I didn’t poison my children either.
Too bad this country is still as conservative and religious as it is, I can’t help but think we would be a lot better off, and much more advanced if we weren’t.
May 20th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
I’m glad, BA, that you won’t back down–I hope you keep pointing out where ID is storming the ramparts of education. However, if you turn into a monster (and I mean that in the most derogatory way) like PZ, i can guarantee that you will lose many a reader.
PZ reminds me of those TV preachers who rant and scream about the evils of homosexuality, or the dangers of sex–and who end up turning up at the gay bar in drag, or in a hotel room with an underage prostitute.
I understand the message he is trying to preach, but the venom that spews forth from him–I’m not even going to mention the commenters–makes his site nearly unreadable.
He has an interesting post in the last few days about Robert Bakker (the Dino Guy). It’s PZ who disappoints, not Prof. Bakker.
Just my 2 pennies.
May 20th, 2008 at 7:39 pm
Never give up! Never surrender!
(sorry, couldn’t resist.)
May 20th, 2008 at 7:48 pm
Seeing things like this always makes me very appreciative of the teachers I had in grade school – my grade five science class spent a whole month on “What is Science”, studying the scientific method, and how it could be applied to absolutely anything. Looking back, I now know that it wasn’t actually part of the official curriculum, but the rest of the material from that year (and the rest of them) was a lot easier to understand because of it. Sadly, I didn’t even realize that other students weren’t getting those lessons until years and years later, sitting in a masters level AI programming class, when the Prof. asked the class how the scientific method applied to what we were doing, and when he got only two people in the class willing to answer, he started randomly questioning people in the room, and found that most of them thought science was “test tubes and things”… That was one of the most depressing classes I’d ever been in.
May 20th, 2008 at 8:18 pm
i clearly remember a day in science class when the topic was about evolution, and one of the kids in the bad of the room had to interupt class by stating these “ideas” were against his belief, blablabla. and he wasnt the only classmate i knew that was against being taught reality.
i remember i lovely converstaion i had with some classmate i thought i looked up to for being “cool”, they refused to accept the “idea” that the universe is 15 billion years old, of course at the time i was going of carl sagan quotes, but i wasnt off by much. well if the brians of the kids were mashed like tatters when they were young i hold little hope for them. but people like ourselves must continue to fight if for nothing else then to rmeind others that living in delusion Can kill
May 20th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
I question the results of this study. It was a voluntary response survey that only got about 940 responses. The paper openly states “In addition, we slightly over-represent Midwestern and small town schools.”
That makes me suspicious.
Skeptical, if you will.
May 20th, 2008 at 9:01 pm
Alright BA! As a scientist, how could you be honest and clear-headed and state otherwise? As for that Bakker post on PZ’s site, I think it was well-written. BTW, in defense of his commentors, they helped pull me out of woo-land and sparked an interest in science in general (not just Astronomy). I think people have it all backwards. There is an arrogance in an assuredness of an afterlife (with whatever attendant fantasy world); there is an excitement in stripping away the made-up stuff and a true sense of freedom in the unknown. Oh, but that might be a little scary.
May 20th, 2008 at 9:27 pm
I’m with you BA! Never back down. Those are totally depressing statistics.
I’m Christian, Lutheran flavor, and not a scientist. I believe, because of the only evidence available, that life evolved on earth independent of the divine. Yes, I freely admit I have faith in God, and no, I can’t prove or defend it and that’s OK by me!
I don’t condone teaching faith, which can not be proved, any public school classroom. Ever – not just science classrooms. Evidence says life evolved. There is no evidence God was involved. If one has faith that God was involved, that’s fine – just don’t teach it as fact or as an “alternate” theory.
Like Brian, I never had any teacher in my religious community espouse YEC or (God forbid) ID. Quite the contrary, I learned that the creation stories, and many other Biblical accounts, were just that – stories from a time when knowledge was limited and MAN sought to understand life in the context of a faith in God. Heck, my Sunday School teachers even pointed out the contradicting creation accounts to us. Not a one, that I am aware of, saw evolution or science as threating to their faith. Guess I was a lucky kid.
If only the IDers and YECers would take one of the sayings attributed to St. Francis to heart: “Preach the Gospel every day. Use words if you must.” It’s what we do – how we interact with others – that conveys our faith and interests other people in understanding why we choose certain courses of action.
So, with interaction in mind (and not relying on solely on prayer – LOL!), I’ll keep an eye on my school board and other elected officials and respond with my vote and active promotion of science only in science classes.
May 20th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
Oops.. make that “Like Max,…”
Brian’s comment on Christian opinions and the BA blog cracked me up and I guess his name stuck in my mind!
May 20th, 2008 at 11:07 pm
Having read the description by Richard Feynman of how school textbooks are selected in “Surely you’re Joking Mr Feynman” (a process that means that textbooks are selected by people who generally know little about science, and are under pressure from textbook publishers), it strikes me that 2 things are required -
1: A nationally approved curriculum for science courses.
2: Textbooks that are approved by scientists.
In both cases the approval would need to be done via a suitable body (for example, the AAAS).
From the little I know about the USA, I guess this would meet with considerable political opposition. However, a start could be made by getting text books approved by the AAAS, and having a campaign to let parents know whether or not there childrens schools are using approved textbooks.
Yes, would be a long campaign, but if successful would be well worth while. Phil, do you know anyone who could get such a campaign off the ground ?
May 21st, 2008 at 12:20 am
I’m quite concerned that 1 teacher in 11 didn’t answer or had no opinion.
May 21st, 2008 at 2:03 am
BA would never do that, he’s too family oriented. PZ says it as he sees it, and I for one love the way he says it. He’s angry, and rightly so IMNSHO, that these IDiots are trying to take us back to the dark ages, or at least slow down our progress to greater enlightenment.
Does this mean that you think PZ sneaks out & teaches Creationism at night school classes?
May 21st, 2008 at 2:53 am
Where was the option for the origin of human existence not being suitable material for public high schools, science or otherwise? Nobody ever takes the time to explain that…
May 21st, 2008 at 4:01 am
From the article:
“Between March 5 and May 1, 2007, 939 teachers participated in the study, either by mail or by completing an identical questionnaire online. Our overall response rate of 48% yielded a sample that may be generalized to the population of all public school teachers who taught a high school–level biology course in the 2006–2007 academic year [...]”
So, the sample was self-selected?!
Also, the non-response rate is huge. More people declined to reply to the survey than those who complied.
These are two very loud alarm bells.
Skepticism begins at home. The BA and PZ should be more critical of a survey with such a questionable design.
May 21st, 2008 at 7:21 am
@ Rand
Huh? How could you possibly think that the origin and development of any species, most impotantly our own, is not suitable for public high schools? That’s absurd. How can you make that argument and not make the same argument against teaching basic history?
Evolution is a fundamental concept of biology, and understanding it is crucial if you ever want to become a biologist, (or, ya know, just want to actually understand how the world around you works) and high school is where these fundamental concepts are taught, and should be taught, in all disciplines.
If you’d like to make a reasonable, rational case for not teaching origins of the human, or any other species, to high schoolers that doesn’t begin and end with “cause that answer’s already in the Bible”, then I’m willing to listen… but I think you can already see that I think that would be a monumental mistake. I’m interested in our kids getting smarter… we’re dumb enough as a population already, thanks, without removing fundamental scientific concepts from the curriculum.
May 21st, 2008 at 7:59 am
Did you miss the detailed discussion of precisely that in the supplementary text?
May 21st, 2008 at 9:09 am
These things remind me of a Heinlein story I read long ago in which there was a civilization on a planet where there were three suns. Astronomers predicted that one day all three would be below the horizon. When that day occurred the stars shown themselves for the first time to the people of the world who consequently went mad, burned down their houses and were on their way to burn the scientists for reasons of fear and treachery when the story ended.
One of the lessons here is that people react first and think later if they think at all and another derived lesson is that people will stick to their belief even when that belief is proven explicitly to be flawed. Most people acquire facts and the kind of intelligence needed to assemble their personality into a stable form and cannot grasp very well the logical tools that would enable themselves to think outside of themselves and to see the “other.” It seems to me that this is what science does so well. I would suggest that critical thinking skills be emphasized to a fare thee well as soon as the child can be weened from it’s mother’s milk.
Now that’s a real science fiction story!
May 21st, 2008 at 9:26 am
So 84% of your biology teachers are logical, rational and competent.
I think I expected it to be less than that.
May 21st, 2008 at 9:35 am
That would be the Asimov short story Nightfall, later fleshed out into a full novel. Seven suns, as I recall. Well worth picking up a copy of the full version, if you haven’t already read it.
May 21st, 2008 at 9:36 am
Never give up, never surrender! (new window)
May 21st, 2008 at 11:32 am
“Did you miss the detailed discussion of precisely that in the supplementary text?”
Was the sample not self-selected?
May 21st, 2008 at 11:42 am
I have been reading this blog for some time now, but have never commented. I have a degree in microbiology/biotech and can’t find a job because I live in the buckle of the bible belt. I really, really want to teach. I would love to get my teaching cert and teach jr high/high school science. I am afraid to teach here, though. I’ve had friends that have been run out of schools because they refuse to back up the beliefs of the parents regarding the origins of life. I know of several districts where the science teachers have been given grief because parents go so far as to question RCD because it contradicts their YEC views.
The main reason I have not pursued teaching is because I know that if I did and I was brought up against that sort of scrutiny, I would not back down. I would probably wind up penniless and on CNN because I’ve exhausted the legal system in a refusal to “go quietly.”
I think there are many scientists that would love to teach but are too worried about the consequences for their families. Other capable scientists avoid it because it’s not worth the hassle to constantly fight the muzzling for 35K a year.
And, honestly, who wants to be the guy/gal standing in the classroom saying, “Nope. Your folks/pastor/everyone you’ve ever known are wrong. Evolution is very real.” I’d have no problems doing that with kids older than 18, but 11-17 year olds is another story. Folks here would descend upon your home with torches and pitch forks.
In case you are wondering, I would have no support on the state level either. They showed Expelled in our state capitol rotunda.
http://www.gov.mo.gov/firstlady/gallery/040208Expelled.htm
May 21st, 2008 at 11:42 am
Indeed it was not a self-selected sample, though the main article gave that impression.
http://biology.plosjournals.org/archive/1545-7885/6/5/supinfo/10.1371_journal.pbio.0060124.sd001.pdf
The authors argue that the nonresponse rate is not worrisome, based on prior bibliography.
May 21st, 2008 at 11:43 am
If a child has the awareness, intelligence, and the inner strength
to defy these so-called “teachers” who want to force a theocracy
on this nation, will they be punished for not wanting to be force
fed religious propaganda?
I used to think Richard Dawkins was a bit extreme, but something
tells me by the time the dust settles on this matter, we will realize
he was not only right but had not been tough enough against these
fanatics.
Take a lesson from the Middle East about what happens when a
religious group takes over a nation. Peace and harmony? Yeah,
tell that to Iran and Afghanistan.
May 21st, 2008 at 11:51 am
All of this non-sense makes me sick really. I don’t understand why peoples “idea” should somehow have an effect on actual proven FACT and TRUTH. I love that we live in a country where people are free to believe what they wish. I will fight to my death to protect that right. But when people try to force there “ideas” on children that changes so much that science has proven and given us (without a shed of proof) it boggles my mind that any teacher would allow that in there classroom, where people should be learning things. You are not preachers you are teachers. Keep that out of public schools. Or I will keep my kids out of them.
May 21st, 2008 at 11:52 am
My advice to ELB…
“Run for your life!”
Ack, seriously, that’s a tough situation to be in.
May 21st, 2008 at 1:39 pm
@ELB–
May want to try and contact the good folks at NCSE; they may have some resources for you.
May 21st, 2008 at 4:22 pm
Sickening. America is well on it’s way to becoming the laughing stock of the planet. Especially when it comes to science, engineering, and other technical issues.
May 21st, 2008 at 4:26 pm
FYI, might be time to rally your peeps in Louisiana again to contact their representatives….
http://www.2theadvocate.com/news/19150769.html
May 21st, 2008 at 5:45 pm
I am a Special Education Teacher, I teach Emotionally Disturbed middle and high school students. I teach in rural Northern New York State. In the program I taught in a couple of years ago, I (or my assistant) would attend the mainstream classes with the students who could mainstream, so we could reteach the material as needed. I always attended the Science classes.
I found that the Ninth Grade Earth Science teacher had a small table in the front of the classroom covered in Young Earth Creationist tracts. They were never referred to in class, as far as I heard. But they were there!
May 21st, 2008 at 6:48 pm
I was disappointed to see no love for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism. The universe is 45 minutes old.
Everything you remember before that came factory installed for you.
You & Col. Tigh.
May 21st, 2008 at 11:50 pm
I’ve always been more interested in physics and Geology than biology, and as I looked at quantum physics I decided that I’m an adherent to the Watchmaker Analogy. Something kick started the Universe 14-odd billion years ago, got bored and left.
If the creationists wanted to explain G-d starting things, they should look at the Big Bang 14 GYA. But that’d require more math and hard science than they are comfortable with I reckon.
May 23rd, 2008 at 12:24 am
Having lived in the southern US for 18 years now, I know where a lot of the data come from that put those histograms where they are.
I used to be an advisor for seniors in the Ole Miss Engineering School, typically guiding a group through their graduate projects. In such a role I got to meet a lot of the staff of the engineering and science departments. It was (and is) a hotbed for creationists and IDers.
It always struck me as peculiar when, for example, I’d be talking to a geology professor, and we happened to venture into a topic such as the age of the Earth, you could see him blink, shift gears, and put on his dogma hat as he pronounced with rapt, blank eyes that the Earth and the Universe were really 6000 years old.
Then he’d return to reality and talk about what he was supposed to be teaching the students. But there’d always be more than a hint of insincerity.
How such persons manage to exist with such dual/multiple personalities is beyond my ken. That they’re in positions where they’re “educating” our youth is ludicrous.
May 23rd, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Well, honesty demands me share my story. In high school, my biology teacher was an honest-to-God on-public-access-television Holy Roller. Total YEC. When it came to teaching evolution, though, he said something that I respect him for to this day:
“Class, we are going to study evolution over the next while. Now, please understand, this is not only a requirement but the state of the science. You need to know that I disagree with it, but on purely religious grounds. I’ll do my best not to let my bias show or enter into my teaching but keep it in mind. This is science, and important.”
That’s the reason why I disagree vehemently when people say that one can’t be religious and scientific at the same time; I’ve seen it done. It takes a lot of responsibility, introspection, and self-management, but people are fully capable of going “I believe this because it is true, I believe this because I want it to be true but this other is the accepted scientific truth.” Mostly people choose not to do it (or never even realize they have the choice and power to do it) because they are not taught to.
What my teacher believes, as long as he or she is honest about it, is irrelevant compared to what he or she teaches. Sadly, one is all too often identical to the other, but there are people out there who we should be applauding because they do their jobs and to them well despite their perhaps backwards beliefs.