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	<title>Comments on: Science cartoons for freedom!</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/21/science-cartoons-for-freedom/</link>
	<description>I am an astronomer, writer, and skeptic. I likes reality the way it is, and I aims to keep it that way. My real name is Phil Plait, and I run the Bad Astronomy blog.</description>
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		<title>By: PR1ME</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/21/science-cartoons-for-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-90932</link>
		<dc:creator>PR1ME</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 16:14:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/21/science-cartoons-for-freedom/#comment-90932</guid>
		<description>Will, religion is anti-science at it&#039;s core because the core of science is reason, and the core of religion is faith.

Of course religion is an easy target. But I&#039;d suggest to make sure to target all religions--not equally--but appropriately to the threat they pose to reason and to peaceful co-existence. Science can&#039;t exist without both of those things, and even technology degrades without them (i.e. the Soviets). Christianity is a definite threat, and it&#039;s all around us in the West, but far worse are immoral and irrational abominations like Scientology and Islam. Both are struggling for political power over science, technology and the entire culture, and neither has had it&#039;s reformaton yet.

But as bad as they are, they are all visible and largely external enemies--they come at you more or less face to face. Worse even than them are the &#039;inside men&#039;, the trusted but untrustworthy keepers or guardians who betray what they&#039;re supposed to keep safe from betrayal. Like the conservatives. Or the UCS.

That old saying, &quot;keep your enemies close, and keep your friends closer&quot; is probably good to bear in mind here.

And I feel your pain about your professors. It absolutely galls me that they would stand in front of young men and women, tell them that there is no such thing as men and women--and expect the men and women to BELIEVE it. That kind of thing is either the most nihilistic attack possible against the human mind, or the most brilliant psychological experiment whose results remain unpublished. Would any of us want to live in a society which required, or even tolerated, lies and tactics like that?

If you have never read &quot;1984&quot;, now is a good time. (You might see if there&#039;s a campus Objectivist club around too, and see if that interests you.)

Back in the late 80s a little bimbo &quot;TA&quot; told my sociology class--yes, I was young and dumb and took a sociology class, so I got what I deserved--anyway, she said, &quot;Private property is unnatural. Look at animals; they don&#039;t have private property.&quot; I remember sitting there thinking, &quot;Does this mean you&#039;d invade a bear cave because it&#039;s yours too?&quot; (These days I&#039;d raise my hand and ask it aloud. And point out that there&#039;s a zoo nearby where we can test it. And that we should. We really, really should.) Did she actually expect that nobody there could think of that? --that none of us knew to avoid bear caves? That none of us had pets and saw their territorialism over places, and their jealousy over toys and food dishes--that none of us had seen that with our own eyes? Or did she just expect that we couldn&#039;t put together in our minds the things we see?

I think such &quot;professors&quot; intend to distract their victims with non-essentials, trivia which is completely beside the point. To wit: &#039;culture influences behavior, and men and women can TRY to BEHAVE alike, therefore we&#039;re alike [so therefore you should accept my political goal of destroying all masculine traits, especially &#039;outmoded&#039; things like strength, courage, honor and individualism, and once they&#039;re safely gone, you&#039;ll accept my end-goal of replacing &quot;warlike male rule&quot; with smothering nanny-state female rule].&#039;

And: &#039;animals can&#039;t actually FORMALIZE ownership, therefore they don&#039;t actually practice it [so therefore you should lower your own standards to those of the even-lower-than-in-real-life animals which I myself have invented, and once you&#039;ve done that, you&#039;ll finally be ready to accept my glorious communism, which I&#039;ve been openly and explicitly pushing on you all semester].&#039;

Those are some of the teachers in our institutions of &#039;higher&#039; learning. The keepers and guardians of knowledge.

Keep your friends closer...

-- PR1ME</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will, religion is anti-science at it&#8217;s core because the core of science is reason, and the core of religion is faith.</p>
<p>Of course religion is an easy target. But I&#8217;d suggest to make sure to target all religions&#8211;not equally&#8211;but appropriately to the threat they pose to reason and to peaceful co-existence. Science can&#8217;t exist without both of those things, and even technology degrades without them (i.e. the Soviets). Christianity is a definite threat, and it&#8217;s all around us in the West, but far worse are immoral and irrational abominations like Scientology and Islam. Both are struggling for political power over science, technology and the entire culture, and neither has had it&#8217;s reformaton yet.</p>
<p>But as bad as they are, they are all visible and largely external enemies&#8211;they come at you more or less face to face. Worse even than them are the &#8216;inside men&#8217;, the trusted but untrustworthy keepers or guardians who betray what they&#8217;re supposed to keep safe from betrayal. Like the conservatives. Or the UCS.</p>
<p>That old saying, &#8220;keep your enemies close, and keep your friends closer&#8221; is probably good to bear in mind here.</p>
<p>And I feel your pain about your professors. It absolutely galls me that they would stand in front of young men and women, tell them that there is no such thing as men and women&#8211;and expect the men and women to BELIEVE it. That kind of thing is either the most nihilistic attack possible against the human mind, or the most brilliant psychological experiment whose results remain unpublished. Would any of us want to live in a society which required, or even tolerated, lies and tactics like that?</p>
<p>If you have never read &#8220;1984&#8243;, now is a good time. (You might see if there&#8217;s a campus Objectivist club around too, and see if that interests you.)</p>
<p>Back in the late 80s a little bimbo &#8220;TA&#8221; told my sociology class&#8211;yes, I was young and dumb and took a sociology class, so I got what I deserved&#8211;anyway, she said, &#8220;Private property is unnatural. Look at animals; they don&#8217;t have private property.&#8221; I remember sitting there thinking, &#8220;Does this mean you&#8217;d invade a bear cave because it&#8217;s yours too?&#8221; (These days I&#8217;d raise my hand and ask it aloud. And point out that there&#8217;s a zoo nearby where we can test it. And that we should. We really, really should.) Did she actually expect that nobody there could think of that? &#8211;that none of us knew to avoid bear caves? That none of us had pets and saw their territorialism over places, and their jealousy over toys and food dishes&#8211;that none of us had seen that with our own eyes? Or did she just expect that we couldn&#8217;t put together in our minds the things we see?</p>
<p>I think such &#8220;professors&#8221; intend to distract their victims with non-essentials, trivia which is completely beside the point. To wit: &#8216;culture influences behavior, and men and women can TRY to BEHAVE alike, therefore we&#8217;re alike [so therefore you should accept my political goal of destroying all masculine traits, especially 'outmoded' things like strength, courage, honor and individualism, and once they're safely gone, you'll accept my end-goal of replacing "warlike male rule" with smothering nanny-state female rule].&#8217;</p>
<p>And: &#8216;animals can&#8217;t actually FORMALIZE ownership, therefore they don&#8217;t actually practice it [so therefore you should lower your own standards to those of the even-lower-than-in-real-life animals which I myself have invented, and once you've done that, you'll finally be ready to accept my glorious communism, which I've been openly and explicitly pushing on you all semester].&#8217;</p>
<p>Those are some of the teachers in our institutions of &#8216;higher&#8217; learning. The keepers and guardians of knowledge.</p>
<p>Keep your friends closer&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8211; PR1ME</p>
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		<title>By: StevoR</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/21/science-cartoons-for-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-90931</link>
		<dc:creator>StevoR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 09:29:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/21/science-cartoons-for-freedom/#comment-90931</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt; Andy &lt;/b&gt; Thanks for your response on the EV Lacertae &lt;i&gt; (&quot;roaring Red Dwarf&quot;) &lt;/i&gt; thread.

It hasn&#039;t answered my question - but it was appreciated. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b> Andy </b> Thanks for your response on the EV Lacertae <i> (&#8221;roaring Red Dwarf&#8221;) </i> thread.</p>
<p>It hasn&#8217;t answered my question &#8211; but it was appreciated. <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: StevoR</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/21/science-cartoons-for-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-90930</link>
		<dc:creator>StevoR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 08:58:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/21/science-cartoons-for-freedom/#comment-90930</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;... Please ... ??? &lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>&#8230; Please &#8230; ??? </em></p>
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		<title>By: StevoR</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/21/science-cartoons-for-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-90929</link>
		<dc:creator>StevoR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 08:56:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/21/science-cartoons-for-freedom/#comment-90929</guid>
		<description>To quote Pink Floyd :

&lt;i&gt; &quot;Is there anybody out there?&quot; &lt;/i&gt;

 Any cartoonists read my post and think of trying my idea or some variant thereof??

&lt;b&gt; Bad Astronomer &lt;/b&gt; are &lt;i&gt;you &lt;/i&gt; there?  Did you see my EV Lacertae query posted a way above? Could you please let me know if you are or aren&#039;t going to answer it? :-(</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To quote Pink Floyd :</p>
<p><i> &#8220;Is there anybody out there?&#8221; </i></p>
<p> Any cartoonists read my post and think of trying my idea or some variant thereof??</p>
<p><b> Bad Astronomer </b> are <i>you </i> there?  Did you see my EV Lacertae query posted a way above? Could you please let me know if you are or aren&#8217;t going to answer it? <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':-(' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Deir Yassin's ghosts</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/21/science-cartoons-for-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-90928</link>
		<dc:creator>Deir Yassin's ghosts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 08:51:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/21/science-cartoons-for-freedom/#comment-90928</guid>
		<description>&quot;Obviously in many parts of the country (especially the south), the religious movement has worked hard to associate patriotism, freedom, and religion together, but this does not mean these things are ACTUALLY related (in fact, loyalty to an Israelite god would be anti-patriotism).&quot;

Absolutely.

Blind, excessive, bigoted loyalty to the apartheid military theocracy of Israel is really badly hurting the interests, reputation, credibility and even nature of the United States of America.

I keep wondering when the American people will actually wake up to this truth - seems they never do - but then the media is controlled (very largely) by Jewish companies and individuals. (Just like your foreign policy has been hijacked by fundamentalist Jewish &amp; extremist Israeli thugs &amp; their neo-con servants.)

I won&#039;t hgo further off topic except to say : &lt;em&gt; &lt;b&gt; &lt;i&gt;

&quot;Well said &amp; about time!  Its all too bleeding true!&quot;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Obviously in many parts of the country (especially the south), the religious movement has worked hard to associate patriotism, freedom, and religion together, but this does not mean these things are ACTUALLY related (in fact, loyalty to an Israelite god would be anti-patriotism).&#8221;</p>
<p>Absolutely.</p>
<p>Blind, excessive, bigoted loyalty to the apartheid military theocracy of Israel is really badly hurting the interests, reputation, credibility and even nature of the United States of America.</p>
<p>I keep wondering when the American people will actually wake up to this truth &#8211; seems they never do &#8211; but then the media is controlled (very largely) by Jewish companies and individuals. (Just like your foreign policy has been hijacked by fundamentalist Jewish &amp; extremist Israeli thugs &amp; their neo-con servants.)</p>
<p>I won&#8217;t hgo further off topic except to say : <em> <b> <i></p>
<p>&#8220;Well said &amp; about time!  Its all too bleeding true!&#8221;</i></b></em></p>
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		<title>By: Joker</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/21/science-cartoons-for-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-90927</link>
		<dc:creator>Joker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 08:43:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/21/science-cartoons-for-freedom/#comment-90927</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt; &lt;i&gt; One of my favorite professors frequently made fun of the “religious right” ... &lt;/i&gt;  &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Or as sane folks more accurately call &#039;em &quot;the religious &lt;em&gt; &lt;b&gt; WRONG!&quot; &lt;/b&gt;&lt;/em&gt;

Good for your fave professor,  8)
I hope he continues to give teh fools (non-religious) hell! ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p> <i> One of my favorite professors frequently made fun of the “religious right” &#8230; </i>  </p></blockquote>
<p>Or as sane folks more accurately call &#8216;em &#8220;the religious <em> <b> WRONG!&#8221; </b></em></p>
<p>Good for your fave professor,  <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_cool.gif' alt='8)' class='wp-smiley' /> I hope he continues to give teh fools (non-religious) hell! <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Will</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/21/science-cartoons-for-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-90926</link>
		<dc:creator>Will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 23:57:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/21/science-cartoons-for-freedom/#comment-90926</guid>
		<description>PR1ME, I agree with you, and have seen this same thing at my University. The problem, I think, is it turns into a culture war between left-wing and right-wing ideologies, or those perceived to belong to those ideologies.
Obviously my friends are not a good representation of U.S. population, since they are determined by my own personality/beliefs, but I have 4 close friends who are outspokenly conservative, and none of them believe creationism, or god at all for that matter, and I have about 10 close friends who are outspoken liberals, and half of them actually believe the creation fable, and more than that consider themselves &quot;Christian.&quot; So to begin dividing people by scientific knowledge AND political views is quite detrimental, and only serves to alienate allies.

One of my favorite professors frequently made fun of the &quot;religious right&quot; and pointed out various reasons Christian beliefs are ridiculous - and I loved his points (I hate religion), but he probably turned many people off by not simply saying the &quot;religious&quot; and the leaving political half open. As I said, I know more liberal Christians then conservative Christians. Though politicians try and make it so, tax policy, foreign policy, and religion are not all magically connected.

Another professor, in a class about &quot;power relationships&quot; was discussing how wrong the man-woman power dynamic is in society, considering &quot;science has proven there is no difference between men and women, outside of the differences imposed by culture.&quot;
Obviously, science has NOT proven this (simple comparative anatomy is enough to demonstrate this), yet the comment was presented as factual. This is a clear case of a &quot;left-wing&quot; twisting of science, yet these are left unassailed, as they are &quot;politically correct.&quot;

However, all misrepresentations of science are intellectually backward, and must be defended against.

I hate the Republican party and large swathes of the conservative movement more than most, but watching NASCAR does not equate to creationism. Obviously in many parts of the country (especially the south), the religious movement has worked hard to associate patriotism, freedom, and religion together, but this does not mean these things are ACTUALLY related (in fact, loyalty to an Israelite god would be anti-patriotism).

The Church of Scientology has corrupted many police officers to harass their enemies, but this does not mean police officers = scientologists.

I think for the current &quot;wave of reason&quot; to continue to spread and gain support, we must be sure we stick to reason and science, and avoid the pitfalls of religious us-vs-them thinking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PR1ME, I agree with you, and have seen this same thing at my University. The problem, I think, is it turns into a culture war between left-wing and right-wing ideologies, or those perceived to belong to those ideologies.<br />
Obviously my friends are not a good representation of U.S. population, since they are determined by my own personality/beliefs, but I have 4 close friends who are outspokenly conservative, and none of them believe creationism, or god at all for that matter, and I have about 10 close friends who are outspoken liberals, and half of them actually believe the creation fable, and more than that consider themselves &#8220;Christian.&#8221; So to begin dividing people by scientific knowledge AND political views is quite detrimental, and only serves to alienate allies.</p>
<p>One of my favorite professors frequently made fun of the &#8220;religious right&#8221; and pointed out various reasons Christian beliefs are ridiculous &#8211; and I loved his points (I hate religion), but he probably turned many people off by not simply saying the &#8220;religious&#8221; and the leaving political half open. As I said, I know more liberal Christians then conservative Christians. Though politicians try and make it so, tax policy, foreign policy, and religion are not all magically connected.</p>
<p>Another professor, in a class about &#8220;power relationships&#8221; was discussing how wrong the man-woman power dynamic is in society, considering &#8220;science has proven there is no difference between men and women, outside of the differences imposed by culture.&#8221;<br />
Obviously, science has NOT proven this (simple comparative anatomy is enough to demonstrate this), yet the comment was presented as factual. This is a clear case of a &#8220;left-wing&#8221; twisting of science, yet these are left unassailed, as they are &#8220;politically correct.&#8221;</p>
<p>However, all misrepresentations of science are intellectually backward, and must be defended against.</p>
<p>I hate the Republican party and large swathes of the conservative movement more than most, but watching NASCAR does not equate to creationism. Obviously in many parts of the country (especially the south), the religious movement has worked hard to associate patriotism, freedom, and religion together, but this does not mean these things are ACTUALLY related (in fact, loyalty to an Israelite god would be anti-patriotism).</p>
<p>The Church of Scientology has corrupted many police officers to harass their enemies, but this does not mean police officers = scientologists.</p>
<p>I think for the current &#8220;wave of reason&#8221; to continue to spread and gain support, we must be sure we stick to reason and science, and avoid the pitfalls of religious us-vs-them thinking.</p>
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