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	<title>Comments on: Evolution in a flask</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/06/11/evolution-in-a-flask/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/06/11/evolution-in-a-flask/</link>
	<description>I am an astronomer, writer, and skeptic. I likes reality the way it is, and I aims to keep it that way. My real name is Phil Plait, and I run the Bad Astronomy blog.</description>
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		<title>By: NEB</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/06/11/evolution-in-a-flask/comment-page-3/#comment-213</link>
		<dc:creator>NEB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jun 2008 19:02:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/06/11/evolution-in-a-flask/#comment-213</guid>
		<description>to Tom Marking,
its not about the temperature, but the rate in the change or temperature. If the the E. coli is cooled rapidly from room temperature to below 0 C, no large crystals will form and the cells can survive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>to Tom Marking,<br />
its not about the temperature, but the rate in the change or temperature. If the the E. coli is cooled rapidly from room temperature to below 0 C, no large crystals will form and the cells can survive.</p>
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		<title>By: Torbjörn Larsson, OM</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/06/11/evolution-in-a-flask/comment-page-3/#comment-212</link>
		<dc:creator>Torbjörn Larsson, OM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 05:08:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/06/11/evolution-in-a-flask/#comment-212</guid>
		<description>FWIW, catching up on old threads:

 @ Tom Marking:

I was using the earlier rate (and a generation time of 20 years which I left out as it was possible to deduce): 500*20/0.01= 10^6.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FWIW, catching up on old threads:</p>
<p> @ Tom Marking:</p>
<p>I was using the earlier rate (and a generation time of 20 years which I left out as it was possible to deduce): 500*20/0.01= 10^6.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Torbjörn Larsson, OM</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/06/11/evolution-in-a-flask/comment-page-3/#comment-211</link>
		<dc:creator>Torbjörn Larsson, OM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 05:02:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/06/11/evolution-in-a-flask/#comment-211</guid>
		<description>FWIW, catching up on old threads:

 @ Robert:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
Because if creation is true, evolution isn’t, and that’s the biggest threat there is to athiestic evolutionism. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

False choice. Evolution being wrong wouldn&#039;t make creationism right, as is your basis for the above reasoning. There were other alternatives, for example Lamarckism.

But even if creationism &quot;is true&quot;, you haven&#039;t explained what it is (because you rely on false choice), so both could then be a fact.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FWIW, catching up on old threads:</p>
<p> @ Robert:</p>
<blockquote><p>
Because if creation is true, evolution isn’t, and that’s the biggest threat there is to athiestic evolutionism. </p></blockquote>
<p>False choice. Evolution being wrong wouldn&#8217;t make creationism right, as is your basis for the above reasoning. There were other alternatives, for example Lamarckism.</p>
<p>But even if creationism &#8220;is true&#8221;, you haven&#8217;t explained what it is (because you rely on false choice), so both could then be a fact.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Torr</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/06/11/evolution-in-a-flask/comment-page-2/#comment-210</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Torr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 22:59:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/06/11/evolution-in-a-flask/#comment-210</guid>
		<description>I knew that name Carl Zimmer as soon as I saw this, and once I read the (highly interesting) article I knew why.  Only two days ago I was on a transatlantic flight, reading his Article in SciAm (&quot;What Is a Species?&quot;) - which was also fascinating.

That speeded-up video is amazing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I knew that name Carl Zimmer as soon as I saw this, and once I read the (highly interesting) article I knew why.  Only two days ago I was on a transatlantic flight, reading his Article in SciAm (&#8221;What Is a Species?&#8221;) &#8211; which was also fascinating.</p>
<p>That speeded-up video is amazing.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Marking</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/06/11/evolution-in-a-flask/comment-page-2/#comment-209</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Marking</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 21:29:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/06/11/evolution-in-a-flask/#comment-209</guid>
		<description>Here are some results of a Monte Carlo program I wrote which simulates point mutations in a DNA sequence of some particular length:

Program to compute statistics for DNA point mutations
Total number of point mutations to run = 10000
Initial number of amino acids = 100
Initial number of nucleotides = 303
Mutations with no change in amino acid sequence: 24.5%
Mutations with one change in amino acid sequence: 70.4%
Mutations with truncated amino acid sequence: 4.1%
Mutations with extended amino acid sequence: 0.9%
Average number of amino acids truncated = 49.6
Average number of amino acids extended = 23.0

Consecutive mutations in the same gene
Total number of consecutive mutation runs = 1000
Avg # of consec. mutations for length to change = 19.4

So just looking at point mutations in a DNA strand of length 303 (codes for a protein of length 100 amino acids) we see that about one fourth of them don&#039;t cause any phenotype changes at all.  About 4 percent of them cause the protein to be truncated (on average it is cut in half) which is a catastrophic change.  About 1 percent of them result in the protein being lengthened (this is the answer to the creationist question of where does new information come from).

Considering consecutive mutations in the same gene, by the time you get 19 of them you can expect the protein to be either truncated or extended.  So in terms of the E. coli experiment what these results mean is we expect about 1.3 non-selectable mutations for every 1 that is selectable.  Thus, if the citrate digestibility trait took 3 selectable mutations to occur then the total number of mutations should be about 4.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here are some results of a Monte Carlo program I wrote which simulates point mutations in a DNA sequence of some particular length:</p>
<p>Program to compute statistics for DNA point mutations<br />
Total number of point mutations to run = 10000<br />
Initial number of amino acids = 100<br />
Initial number of nucleotides = 303<br />
Mutations with no change in amino acid sequence: 24.5%<br />
Mutations with one change in amino acid sequence: 70.4%<br />
Mutations with truncated amino acid sequence: 4.1%<br />
Mutations with extended amino acid sequence: 0.9%<br />
Average number of amino acids truncated = 49.6<br />
Average number of amino acids extended = 23.0</p>
<p>Consecutive mutations in the same gene<br />
Total number of consecutive mutation runs = 1000<br />
Avg # of consec. mutations for length to change = 19.4</p>
<p>So just looking at point mutations in a DNA strand of length 303 (codes for a protein of length 100 amino acids) we see that about one fourth of them don&#8217;t cause any phenotype changes at all.  About 4 percent of them cause the protein to be truncated (on average it is cut in half) which is a catastrophic change.  About 1 percent of them result in the protein being lengthened (this is the answer to the creationist question of where does new information come from).</p>
<p>Considering consecutive mutations in the same gene, by the time you get 19 of them you can expect the protein to be either truncated or extended.  So in terms of the E. coli experiment what these results mean is we expect about 1.3 non-selectable mutations for every 1 that is selectable.  Thus, if the citrate digestibility trait took 3 selectable mutations to occur then the total number of mutations should be about 4.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: slang</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/06/11/evolution-in-a-flask/comment-page-2/#comment-208</link>
		<dc:creator>slang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 22:22:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/06/11/evolution-in-a-flask/#comment-208</guid>
		<description>Argh.. my kingdom for an edit button!

I meant I didn&#039;t mean to assert that it was in PZ&#039;s article, which is why I put that suggestion on a separate line, instead of in the same paragraph.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Argh.. my kingdom for an edit button!</p>
<p>I meant I didn&#8217;t mean to assert that it was in PZ&#8217;s article, which is why I put that suggestion on a separate line, instead of in the same paragraph.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: slang</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/06/11/evolution-in-a-flask/comment-page-2/#comment-207</link>
		<dc:creator>slang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 22:17:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/06/11/evolution-in-a-flask/#comment-207</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t assert that. I suggested reading it as I found it a clear explanation of the meaning and value of the research. Sorry for that not being clear on that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t assert that. I suggested reading it as I found it a clear explanation of the meaning and value of the research. Sorry for that not being clear on that.</p>
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