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	<title>Comments on: Banner yet wave</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/04/banner-yet-wave/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/04/banner-yet-wave/</link>
	<description>I am an astronomer, writer, and skeptic. I likes reality the way it is, and I aims to keep it that way. My real name is Phil Plait, and I run the Bad Astronomy blog.</description>
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		<title>By: Nathan Myers</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/04/banner-yet-wave/comment-page-1/#comment-97784</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan Myers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 02:34:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/04/banner-yet-wave/#comment-97784</guid>
		<description>Squid: &quot;Troll&quot;?  Oh, so you &lt;i&gt;are&lt;/i&gt; one of those &lt;i&gt;ad hominem&lt;/i&gt; guys.  You should have said so when I asked.

Nobody said charge was magic.  Nobody said plasma was &quot;The Force&quot;.  I can&#039;t imagine what it would mean for plasma to &quot;bind everything together&quot;.  Those were your (silly) words.  Your claim was that charge could only exist on &quot;large-scale objects&quot;.  An ion is not a large-scale object, yet an extended collection of ions, which we call &quot;plasma&quot;, can indeed carry charge, and both be affected by and generate magnetic fields. Plasma does have mass. The mass of hadronic matter in low-density plasma form completely overwhelms that locked up in &quot;large-scale objects&quot;.  

The only substantive statement in your reply is, in fact, false: &quot;it&#039;s easy to detect a plasma flow&quot;.  Plasma flow is visible only if the current level is high enough.  That&#039;s called &quot;glow phase&quot;.  At higher current densities we see &quot;arc phase&quot;. At lower levels it is invisible.  If plasma fluid dynamics were taught in high school, you might know that.

So far you&#039;re batting sub-zero.  It wouldn&#039;t mean anything to say the universe is electric.  It means no more to insist that it&#039;s not, but it tells us something about the speaker.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Squid: &#8220;Troll&#8221;?  Oh, so you <i>are</i> one of those <i>ad hominem</i> guys.  You should have said so when I asked.</p>
<p>Nobody said charge was magic.  Nobody said plasma was &#8220;The Force&#8221;.  I can&#8217;t imagine what it would mean for plasma to &#8220;bind everything together&#8221;.  Those were your (silly) words.  Your claim was that charge could only exist on &#8220;large-scale objects&#8221;.  An ion is not a large-scale object, yet an extended collection of ions, which we call &#8220;plasma&#8221;, can indeed carry charge, and both be affected by and generate magnetic fields. Plasma does have mass. The mass of hadronic matter in low-density plasma form completely overwhelms that locked up in &#8220;large-scale objects&#8221;.  </p>
<p>The only substantive statement in your reply is, in fact, false: &#8220;it&#8217;s easy to detect a plasma flow&#8221;.  Plasma flow is visible only if the current level is high enough.  That&#8217;s called &#8220;glow phase&#8221;.  At higher current densities we see &#8220;arc phase&#8221;. At lower levels it is invisible.  If plasma fluid dynamics were taught in high school, you might know that.</p>
<p>So far you&#8217;re batting sub-zero.  It wouldn&#8217;t mean anything to say the universe is electric.  It means no more to insist that it&#8217;s not, but it tells us something about the speaker.</p>
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		<title>By: Evolving Squid</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/04/banner-yet-wave/comment-page-1/#comment-97480</link>
		<dc:creator>Evolving Squid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 13:06:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/04/banner-yet-wave/#comment-97480</guid>
		<description>Yes, charge can only exist on an object, although that object might be sub-atomic in size.  Charge is not a magic property like Mana and Ether.  A macroscopic charged object has properties that are stronger than gravity.  If astronomical objects were charged, they would exhibit huge effects that would be very easy to detect.  Those effects would overpower gravity.

No, large-scale plasma flows that link the universe together in the manner suggested by Electric Universe hypothesis have never been detected.  Sure, plasma exists, but it&#039;s not &quot;The Force&quot;, and unlike &quot;The Force&quot; plasma does not bind everything together.  It&#039;s easy to detect a plasma flow - go look at a neon lamp.  That doesn&#039;t mean that the universe is electric.

Nathan, you&#039;re a troll, and I will feed you no further.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, charge can only exist on an object, although that object might be sub-atomic in size.  Charge is not a magic property like Mana and Ether.  A macroscopic charged object has properties that are stronger than gravity.  If astronomical objects were charged, they would exhibit huge effects that would be very easy to detect.  Those effects would overpower gravity.</p>
<p>No, large-scale plasma flows that link the universe together in the manner suggested by Electric Universe hypothesis have never been detected.  Sure, plasma exists, but it&#8217;s not &#8220;The Force&#8221;, and unlike &#8220;The Force&#8221; plasma does not bind everything together.  It&#8217;s easy to detect a plasma flow &#8211; go look at a neon lamp.  That doesn&#8217;t mean that the universe is electric.</p>
<p>Nathan, you&#8217;re a troll, and I will feed you no further.</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan Myers</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/04/banner-yet-wave/comment-page-1/#comment-97453</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan Myers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 09:35:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/04/banner-yet-wave/#comment-97453</guid>
		<description>So, charge can only exist on an object?  That&#039;s the &quot;pith ball approximation&quot;.  Fail.  Large-scale plasma flows ought to be detectable?  They have been.  Fail.

Thus far you&#039;re not doing very well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, charge can only exist on an object?  That&#8217;s the &#8220;pith ball approximation&#8221;.  Fail.  Large-scale plasma flows ought to be detectable?  They have been.  Fail.</p>
<p>Thus far you&#8217;re not doing very well.</p>
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		<title>By: Evolving Squid</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/04/banner-yet-wave/comment-page-1/#comment-97294</link>
		<dc:creator>Evolving Squid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 22:06:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/04/banner-yet-wave/#comment-97294</guid>
		<description>What I mean by debunked is that no premise has stood up to observation or measurement, much as Shane says.  The founding assumption (that large-scale objects can have and maintain an electric charge) has not stood up to inquiry, nor has anything like that been observed.

The simple fact that the electromagnetic force is huge relative to gravity would mean that large-scale charged objects would have obvious, undeniable properties and effects that could not be overlooked by those poor, misguided gravity theorists.  Those properties could not be hidden in mathematical tricks or assumptions.  Large scale plasma flows could be easily measured by instruments well below modern technology, there&#039;s no trick to it, you only need to look.  Well, we have the instruments in place, and the flows are not observed.

Consequently, it is apparent to anyone who has even a tenuous grasp of high-school physics that the Electric Universe hypothesis cannot be true, even if it is true that some plasma exists here and there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I mean by debunked is that no premise has stood up to observation or measurement, much as Shane says.  The founding assumption (that large-scale objects can have and maintain an electric charge) has not stood up to inquiry, nor has anything like that been observed.</p>
<p>The simple fact that the electromagnetic force is huge relative to gravity would mean that large-scale charged objects would have obvious, undeniable properties and effects that could not be overlooked by those poor, misguided gravity theorists.  Those properties could not be hidden in mathematical tricks or assumptions.  Large scale plasma flows could be easily measured by instruments well below modern technology, there&#8217;s no trick to it, you only need to look.  Well, we have the instruments in place, and the flows are not observed.</p>
<p>Consequently, it is apparent to anyone who has even a tenuous grasp of high-school physics that the Electric Universe hypothesis cannot be true, even if it is true that some plasma exists here and there.</p>
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		<title>By: shane</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/04/banner-yet-wave/comment-page-1/#comment-97099</link>
		<dc:creator>shane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 07:40:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/04/banner-yet-wave/#comment-97099</guid>
		<description>My understanding is that the electric universe theory is entirely plausible if you ignore what we know about the universe and what is directly observed and measured.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My understanding is that the electric universe theory is entirely plausible if you ignore what we know about the universe and what is directly observed and measured.</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan Myers</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/04/banner-yet-wave/comment-page-1/#comment-97084</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan Myers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 06:53:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/04/banner-yet-wave/#comment-97084</guid>
		<description>Squid: I&#039;m at a loss to guess what you can honestly imagine has &quot;been debunked&quot;. 

That the interstellar medium is plasma throughout, kept partially or fully ionized by high-energy radiation?  That the collective mass of plasma in the ISM and IGM entirely overwhelms the collective mass of star systems?  That every star is itself plasma, from fully-ionized core to fully-ionized corona?  That plasma fluid dynamics is overwhelmingly more complex than ordinary fluid dynamics?  That charged particles move through space, producing a magnetic field as they go?  That magnetic fields in space vary in time and space, producing potential differences?  That the degree of ionization and elemental composition found varies from place to place?

I suppose you &quot;debunk&quot; it all just by insisting none of the above can possibly have any effect on anything that actually observable.  Perhaps you make up a bunch of claims that &lt;i&gt;no one&lt;/i&gt; actually asserts (e.g. &quot;gravitation has no effect&quot;), and make fun of those.  Maybe you pick absurd claims by ideologists who have latched onto plasma-astronomical concepts, and project them on everyone else.  Probably you trot out results from an approximation (e.g. pith balls, or MHD) and project them on conditions where their underlying assumptions are violated. Most likely all of the above.  None of this, of course, would count as honest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Squid: I&#8217;m at a loss to guess what you can honestly imagine has &#8220;been debunked&#8221;. </p>
<p>That the interstellar medium is plasma throughout, kept partially or fully ionized by high-energy radiation?  That the collective mass of plasma in the ISM and IGM entirely overwhelms the collective mass of star systems?  That every star is itself plasma, from fully-ionized core to fully-ionized corona?  That plasma fluid dynamics is overwhelmingly more complex than ordinary fluid dynamics?  That charged particles move through space, producing a magnetic field as they go?  That magnetic fields in space vary in time and space, producing potential differences?  That the degree of ionization and elemental composition found varies from place to place?</p>
<p>I suppose you &#8220;debunk&#8221; it all just by insisting none of the above can possibly have any effect on anything that actually observable.  Perhaps you make up a bunch of claims that <i>no one</i> actually asserts (e.g. &#8220;gravitation has no effect&#8221;), and make fun of those.  Maybe you pick absurd claims by ideologists who have latched onto plasma-astronomical concepts, and project them on everyone else.  Probably you trot out results from an approximation (e.g. pith balls, or MHD) and project them on conditions where their underlying assumptions are violated. Most likely all of the above.  None of this, of course, would count as honest.</p>
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		<title>By: Evolving Squid</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/04/banner-yet-wave/comment-page-1/#comment-97053</link>
		<dc:creator>Evolving Squid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 04:03:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/04/banner-yet-wave/#comment-97053</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;How about you, are you one of those ad hominem guys?&lt;/i&gt;

No.  The electric universe hypothesis pops up in comments here from time to time.  It&#039;s been debunked countless times, and is worthy of being dismissed out of hand with no further discussion.

If you aren&#039;t basing your comments on &quot;electric universe&quot; then the answer to my question is simply &quot;no&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>How about you, are you one of those ad hominem guys?</i></p>
<p>No.  The electric universe hypothesis pops up in comments here from time to time.  It&#8217;s been debunked countless times, and is worthy of being dismissed out of hand with no further discussion.</p>
<p>If you aren&#8217;t basing your comments on &#8220;electric universe&#8221; then the answer to my question is simply &#8220;no&#8221;.</p>
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