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	<title>Comments on: Oh the pain, the pain</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/11/oh-the-pain-the-pain/</link>
	<description>I am an astronomer, writer, and skeptic. I likes reality the way it is, and I aims to keep it that way. My real name is Phil Plait, and I run the Bad Astronomy blog.</description>
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		<title>By: The Centipede</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/11/oh-the-pain-the-pain/comment-page-1/#comment-101032</link>
		<dc:creator>The Centipede</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:21:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/11/oh-the-pain-the-pain/#comment-101032</guid>
		<description>Hee, I hit a nerve.  Normally I&#039;d apologize, but if someone is seriously dedicated to taking offense where none was intended...

From all of &lt;i&gt;my&lt;/i&gt; anecdotal evidence it happens to be Fundamentalists, Evangelicals, and anyone else who would profess the literal inerrancy of their scriptures that deny the very possibility of the existence of, oh, evolution and oppose any scientific venture that threatens their world-view.  That they haven&#039;t quite gotten to astronomy yet is generally because they&#039;ve not figured out that distance = time in a relativistic universe (light years, anyone?) and those that do generally then go for a Last Thursdayism argument which makes Jehova end up being a bit more like Loki.

Ah well.

Note that I was very careful not to include &lt;i&gt;all&lt;/i&gt; of Christianity in my call-out, as that truly would have been patently unfair, instead concentrating on the fundamentalist sects which, no original research required, have appeared to have been those most vehemently opposed to the promulgation of science qua science--as has been said many times, evolution and cosmology are just as much &#039;facts&#039; right now as universal gravitation.  If you (KC) classify as an exception to that estimation of the Evangelical and Fundamentalist schools of thought, I do apologize, but in terms of the greater number of those schools of thought the shoe most certainly fits.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hee, I hit a nerve.  Normally I&#8217;d apologize, but if someone is seriously dedicated to taking offense where none was intended&#8230;</p>
<p>From all of <i>my</i> anecdotal evidence it happens to be Fundamentalists, Evangelicals, and anyone else who would profess the literal inerrancy of their scriptures that deny the very possibility of the existence of, oh, evolution and oppose any scientific venture that threatens their world-view.  That they haven&#8217;t quite gotten to astronomy yet is generally because they&#8217;ve not figured out that distance = time in a relativistic universe (light years, anyone?) and those that do generally then go for a Last Thursdayism argument which makes Jehova end up being a bit more like Loki.</p>
<p>Ah well.</p>
<p>Note that I was very careful not to include <i>all</i> of Christianity in my call-out, as that truly would have been patently unfair, instead concentrating on the fundamentalist sects which, no original research required, have appeared to have been those most vehemently opposed to the promulgation of science qua science&#8211;as has been said many times, evolution and cosmology are just as much &#8216;facts&#8217; right now as universal gravitation.  If you (KC) classify as an exception to that estimation of the Evangelical and Fundamentalist schools of thought, I do apologize, but in terms of the greater number of those schools of thought the shoe most certainly fits.</p>
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		<title>By: Torbjörn Larsson, OM</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/11/oh-the-pain-the-pain/comment-page-1/#comment-100566</link>
		<dc:creator>Torbjörn Larsson, OM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 22:29:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/11/oh-the-pain-the-pain/#comment-100566</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
the Traveller came as a large and moving Torb! 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Call me the Traveler then.

@ JTankers:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
Dr. Hawking was apparently was unaware that any particles a high energy cosmic ray might create by striking Earth’s atmosphere would travel so fast (nearly the speed of light) that they would just pass through the planet.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Impossible. And we detect them, directly refuting your phantasm version of physics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
the Traveller came as a large and moving Torb!
</p></blockquote>
<p>Call me the Traveler then.</p>
<p>@ JTankers:</p>
<blockquote><p>
Dr. Hawking was apparently was unaware that any particles a high energy cosmic ray might create by striking Earth’s atmosphere would travel so fast (nearly the speed of light) that they would just pass through the planet.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Impossible. And we detect them, directly refuting your phantasm version of physics.</p>
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		<title>By: defectiverobot</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/11/oh-the-pain-the-pain/comment-page-1/#comment-100160</link>
		<dc:creator>defectiverobot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 18:37:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/11/oh-the-pain-the-pain/#comment-100160</guid>
		<description>Brian Gefrich,

Davros isn&#039;t in charge of CERN by any chance, is he?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian Gefrich,</p>
<p>Davros isn&#8217;t in charge of CERN by any chance, is he?</p>
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		<title>By: Celtic_Evolution</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/11/oh-the-pain-the-pain/comment-page-1/#comment-100033</link>
		<dc:creator>Celtic_Evolution</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:24:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/11/oh-the-pain-the-pain/#comment-100033</guid>
		<description>@ KC

&lt;i&gt;How can you be sure statements that we are anti-science isn’t based on bias and stereotype? If what I related is anecdotal information, then so is the testimony of every person who takes a witness stand.&lt;/i&gt;

OK... fair point... but if I have a large sample size of a multitude of similar data over a long period of time, evidence begins to pile up in favor of a specific tendency... no?  That&#039;s quite a bit different from the single anecdotal data of an individual person, and that was the point I was trying to make.  The position that fundamentalists and evangelicals are, have shown, in general, an anti-science leaning, is not based on the single anecdotal data of one person or another... it&#039;s the preponderance of data that all these pieces of evidence build up to that make a pretty strong case for supporting the claim.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ KC</p>
<p><i>How can you be sure statements that we are anti-science isn’t based on bias and stereotype? If what I related is anecdotal information, then so is the testimony of every person who takes a witness stand.</i></p>
<p>OK&#8230; fair point&#8230; but if I have a large sample size of a multitude of similar data over a long period of time, evidence begins to pile up in favor of a specific tendency&#8230; no?  That&#8217;s quite a bit different from the single anecdotal data of an individual person, and that was the point I was trying to make.  The position that fundamentalists and evangelicals are, have shown, in general, an anti-science leaning, is not based on the single anecdotal data of one person or another&#8230; it&#8217;s the preponderance of data that all these pieces of evidence build up to that make a pretty strong case for supporting the claim.</p>
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		<title>By: madge</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/11/oh-the-pain-the-pain/comment-page-1/#comment-99869</link>
		<dc:creator>madge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 07:40:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/11/oh-the-pain-the-pain/#comment-99869</guid>
		<description>My understanding is that the biggest danger with the LHC is that it could do damage TO ITSELF not the planet. Hence the long gradual power up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My understanding is that the biggest danger with the LHC is that it could do damage TO ITSELF not the planet. Hence the long gradual power up.</p>
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		<title>By: KC</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/11/oh-the-pain-the-pain/comment-page-1/#comment-99776</link>
		<dc:creator>KC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 03:45:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/11/oh-the-pain-the-pain/#comment-99776</guid>
		<description>Celtic_Evolution:

How can you be sure statements that we are anti-science isn&#039;t based on bias and stereotype? If what I related is anecdotal information, then so is the testimony of every person who takes a witness stand. What you want to ask, I think, is whether what I witnessed is a accurate sampling. There&#039;s a strong possibility that some many sky gazers in one church is a statistical blip. However, I note that the other issues I mentioned have been discussed by pastors, whether or not it&#039;s come up in church hierarchy or conferences or conventions. About the only denomination that would fall into the Fundamentalist / Evangelical  category that I don&#039;t have info on is Church of God. Which is odd since I have contacts in the denomination and they are more uniform on doctrine than, say, Baptists. And you can add Mennonites to this list: I have no contacts in the Mennonite church.

What you will find is churches taking stand on moral issues of, say, embryonic stem cell research (please note there&#039;s no opposition to adult stem cell research - since news reports usually refer to embryonic stem cell research as just stem cell research, some people aren&#039;t aware of that). Some may call that &quot;anti-science, &quot; yet I&#039;m reminded that some said that about religious opposition to eugenics in the very early 20th Century. 

You will also find scattered opposition to the space program on the theory that the funds could be better spent on social programs at home. Yet I notice the same argument rearing it&#039;s head among those in non-Fundamentalist / Evangelical churches, or who don&#039;t attend church much at all. Off-hand I can&#039;t think of a denomination that&#039;s officially opposed the space program, and I know for a fact that churches prayed for the Apollo 13 crew and the families of the Columbia and Challenger crews.

The only other issue I could think of is some denomination might come out in support of Young Earth Creationism, but offhand I don&#039;t know of any. I found a run-down of what various denominations officially believe here:

http://www.answersincreation.org/denominationlist.htm

Be aware that I noticed an error on their listing of Southern Baptist Churches. The late Adrian Rogers, former SBC president, was a YEC, and that may have skewed their assumptions. Since they have an error in their SBC listing, they may have errors in others as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Celtic_Evolution:</p>
<p>How can you be sure statements that we are anti-science isn&#8217;t based on bias and stereotype? If what I related is anecdotal information, then so is the testimony of every person who takes a witness stand. What you want to ask, I think, is whether what I witnessed is a accurate sampling. There&#8217;s a strong possibility that some many sky gazers in one church is a statistical blip. However, I note that the other issues I mentioned have been discussed by pastors, whether or not it&#8217;s come up in church hierarchy or conferences or conventions. About the only denomination that would fall into the Fundamentalist / Evangelical  category that I don&#8217;t have info on is Church of God. Which is odd since I have contacts in the denomination and they are more uniform on doctrine than, say, Baptists. And you can add Mennonites to this list: I have no contacts in the Mennonite church.</p>
<p>What you will find is churches taking stand on moral issues of, say, embryonic stem cell research (please note there&#8217;s no opposition to adult stem cell research &#8211; since news reports usually refer to embryonic stem cell research as just stem cell research, some people aren&#8217;t aware of that). Some may call that &#8220;anti-science, &#8221; yet I&#8217;m reminded that some said that about religious opposition to eugenics in the very early 20th Century. </p>
<p>You will also find scattered opposition to the space program on the theory that the funds could be better spent on social programs at home. Yet I notice the same argument rearing it&#8217;s head among those in non-Fundamentalist / Evangelical churches, or who don&#8217;t attend church much at all. Off-hand I can&#8217;t think of a denomination that&#8217;s officially opposed the space program, and I know for a fact that churches prayed for the Apollo 13 crew and the families of the Columbia and Challenger crews.</p>
<p>The only other issue I could think of is some denomination might come out in support of Young Earth Creationism, but offhand I don&#8217;t know of any. I found a run-down of what various denominations officially believe here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.answersincreation.org/denominationlist.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.answersincreation.org/denominationlist.htm</a></p>
<p>Be aware that I noticed an error on their listing of Southern Baptist Churches. The late Adrian Rogers, former SBC president, was a YEC, and that may have skewed their assumptions. Since they have an error in their SBC listing, they may have errors in others as well.</p>
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		<title>By: John Marley</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/11/oh-the-pain-the-pain/comment-page-1/#comment-99770</link>
		<dc:creator>John Marley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 03:34:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/11/oh-the-pain-the-pain/#comment-99770</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m hoping for the &quot;return of the Elder Gods&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m hoping for the &#8220;return of the Elder Gods&#8221;</p>
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