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	<title>Comments on: How do you weigh a supermassive black hole?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/16/how-do-you-weigh-a-supermassive-black-hole/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/16/how-do-you-weigh-a-supermassive-black-hole/</link>
	<description>I am an astronomer, writer, and skeptic. I likes reality the way it is, and I aims to keep it that way. My real name is Phil Plait, and I run the Bad Astronomy blog.</description>
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		<title>By: Torbjörn Larsson, OM</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/16/how-do-you-weigh-a-supermassive-black-hole/comment-page-2/#comment-110573</link>
		<dc:creator>Torbjörn Larsson, OM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 00:25:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/16/how-do-you-weigh-a-supermassive-black-hole/#comment-110573</guid>
		<description>Life intervened, but finally returning to old threads FWIW:

@ Tom Marking:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
So in other words, no direct physical evidence for the concept.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Oh, there is direct physical evidence ot there such as accretion disks and their radiation without any central stars. But not every astronomer is convinced, I hear.

&lt;blockquote&gt;
What does the angular momentum of a mathematical point mean? 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I already explained in another comment, spin applies to pointlike particles. 

You can derive spin and angular momentum by looking at the objects response to disturbances in its environment, such as when NMR is used.

&lt;blockquote&gt;
In the standard blackhole model what is the only entity containing the mass?
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The mass et cetera is defined by its imprint far from the object. It isn&#039;t localized.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Life intervened, but finally returning to old threads FWIW:</p>
<p>@ Tom Marking:</p>
<blockquote><p>
So in other words, no direct physical evidence for the concept.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Oh, there is direct physical evidence ot there such as accretion disks and their radiation without any central stars. But not every astronomer is convinced, I hear.</p>
<blockquote><p>
What does the angular momentum of a mathematical point mean?
</p></blockquote>
<p>I already explained in another comment, spin applies to pointlike particles. </p>
<p>You can derive spin and angular momentum by looking at the objects response to disturbances in its environment, such as when NMR is used.</p>
<blockquote><p>
In the standard blackhole model what is the only entity containing the mass?
</p></blockquote>
<p>The mass et cetera is defined by its imprint far from the object. It isn&#8217;t localized.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Marking</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/16/how-do-you-weigh-a-supermassive-black-hole/comment-page-2/#comment-103200</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Marking</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 03:10:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/16/how-do-you-weigh-a-supermassive-black-hole/#comment-103200</guid>
		<description>&quot;If this were true, changes behind the event horizon would be observable as changes outside the event horizon. In other words, it could be used to send signals accross the horizon. This is why black holes “have no hair”.&quot;

In the standard blackhole model what is the only entity containing the mass?  Is it not the singularity?  And is not the singularity behind the event horizon?  What happens to the gravitational field lines leaving the singularity?  If they cannot make it through the event horizon then no mass outside the event horizon can sense the blackhole&#039;s gravitational field.  It seems to me that the gravitational field line propagates from inside the event horizon to outside it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If this were true, changes behind the event horizon would be observable as changes outside the event horizon. In other words, it could be used to send signals accross the horizon. This is why black holes “have no hair”.&#8221;</p>
<p>In the standard blackhole model what is the only entity containing the mass?  Is it not the singularity?  And is not the singularity behind the event horizon?  What happens to the gravitational field lines leaving the singularity?  If they cannot make it through the event horizon then no mass outside the event horizon can sense the blackhole&#8217;s gravitational field.  It seems to me that the gravitational field line propagates from inside the event horizon to outside it.</p>
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		<title>By: !AstralProjectile</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/16/how-do-you-weigh-a-supermassive-black-hole/comment-page-1/#comment-102718</link>
		<dc:creator>!AstralProjectile</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:54:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/16/how-do-you-weigh-a-supermassive-black-hole/#comment-102718</guid>
		<description>TKU, Torbjörn. I stand corrected on the charge issue. As always I should havw researched the subject first. P.S. I meant &quot;spin&quot; in the angular momentum sense, not the QM sense. And I was referring to Larry Niven&#039;s &lt;i&gt;Hole Man&lt;/i&gt;

Tom Marking: That all encompassing store of Humanity&#039;s knowledge (Wikipedia) tells me that the singularity in BH with angular momentum atually forms a disk, not a point. (It still has no volume, since it&#039;s 2 dimensional.)

Io reiterate, I wish I&#039;d done the research before posting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TKU, Torbjörn. I stand corrected on the charge issue. As always I should havw researched the subject first. P.S. I meant &#8220;spin&#8221; in the angular momentum sense, not the QM sense. And I was referring to Larry Niven&#8217;s <i>Hole Man</i></p>
<p>Tom Marking: That all encompassing store of Humanity&#8217;s knowledge (Wikipedia) tells me that the singularity in BH with angular momentum atually forms a disk, not a point. (It still has no volume, since it&#8217;s 2 dimensional.)</p>
<p>Io reiterate, I wish I&#8217;d done the research before posting.</p>
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		<title>By: rob</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/16/how-do-you-weigh-a-supermassive-black-hole/comment-page-1/#comment-102715</link>
		<dc:creator>rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:45:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/16/how-do-you-weigh-a-supermassive-black-hole/#comment-102715</guid>
		<description>@ Michael L:

that was a gAstley thing to do.

Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can rickroll at will to old ladies. There is a pestilence upon this land, nothing is sacred.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Michael L:</p>
<p>that was a gAstley thing to do.</p>
<p>Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can rickroll at will to old ladies. There is a pestilence upon this land, nothing is sacred.</p>
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		<title>By: Sticks</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/16/how-do-you-weigh-a-supermassive-black-hole/comment-page-1/#comment-102651</link>
		<dc:creator>Sticks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 12:30:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/16/how-do-you-weigh-a-supermassive-black-hole/#comment-102651</guid>
		<description>Should we not be calling these things Supermassive Singularities now, so we do not fall foul of the political correctness thought police? :o</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Should we not be calling these things Supermassive Singularities now, so we do not fall foul of the political correctness thought police? <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_surprised.gif' alt=':o' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Pieter Kok</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/16/how-do-you-weigh-a-supermassive-black-hole/comment-page-1/#comment-102629</link>
		<dc:creator>Pieter Kok</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 09:41:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/16/how-do-you-weigh-a-supermassive-black-hole/#comment-102629</guid>
		<description>Let me add my voice to quasidog&#039;s request. I would like to know what the deal with the gas and the plasma is.

&quot;It is true that events within the event horizon cannot propagate out to us. However, that does not necessarily mean there is no data external to the event horizon that will tell us what type of object it is under the event horizon.&quot;

If this were true, changes behind the event horizon would be observable as changes outside the event horizon. In other words, it could be used to send signals accross the horizon. This is why black holes &quot;have no hair&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let me add my voice to quasidog&#8217;s request. I would like to know what the deal with the gas and the plasma is.</p>
<p>&#8220;It is true that events within the event horizon cannot propagate out to us. However, that does not necessarily mean there is no data external to the event horizon that will tell us what type of object it is under the event horizon.&#8221;</p>
<p>If this were true, changes behind the event horizon would be observable as changes outside the event horizon. In other words, it could be used to send signals accross the horizon. This is why black holes &#8220;have no hair&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: quasidog</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/16/how-do-you-weigh-a-supermassive-black-hole/comment-page-1/#comment-102496</link>
		<dc:creator>quasidog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 23:04:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/07/16/how-do-you-weigh-a-supermassive-black-hole/#comment-102496</guid>
		<description>Re: occam&#039;s comic&#039;s comment and Phil&#039;s rebuttal regarding the difference between plasma and gas.   Phil, are you just being general when you call it all &#039;gas&#039;.   Is there a distinct difference here, between the plasma and the gas at these temperature and in the presence of a magnetic field? ... or is this just pedantic.   From where I stand as a layman, but having a good general knowledge about how this stuff works, it seems he makes a good point, but your dismissal of his claim seems weak.   I would really like for you to clarify if possible.   

It seems you have dismissed occam&#039;s comic as being an electric universe proponent but it seems he is suggesting he is not.   The question remains, is his point correct?   Would is be called a plasma seeing as it is in this magnetic field presence, at these temperatures ? 

I ask, because I am confused as to why you are dismissing his claim so readily, by suggesting he is from some pseudo-scientific back-round, when it seems that what he says about the presence of the magnetic field playing a part makes a lot of sense.  Is it a &#039;gas&#039; generally speaking, or more specifically, would it be a &#039;plasma&#039; ?

Confused.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: occam&#8217;s comic&#8217;s comment and Phil&#8217;s rebuttal regarding the difference between plasma and gas.   Phil, are you just being general when you call it all &#8216;gas&#8217;.   Is there a distinct difference here, between the plasma and the gas at these temperature and in the presence of a magnetic field? &#8230; or is this just pedantic.   From where I stand as a layman, but having a good general knowledge about how this stuff works, it seems he makes a good point, but your dismissal of his claim seems weak.   I would really like for you to clarify if possible.   </p>
<p>It seems you have dismissed occam&#8217;s comic as being an electric universe proponent but it seems he is suggesting he is not.   The question remains, is his point correct?   Would is be called a plasma seeing as it is in this magnetic field presence, at these temperatures ? </p>
<p>I ask, because I am confused as to why you are dismissing his claim so readily, by suggesting he is from some pseudo-scientific back-round, when it seems that what he says about the presence of the magnetic field playing a part makes a lot of sense.  Is it a &#8216;gas&#8217; generally speaking, or more specifically, would it be a &#8216;plasma&#8217; ?</p>
<p>Confused.</p>
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