I am no fan of Larry King. I really don’t see his appeal; he tends to ask facile questions, throw softballs, probe about 1 nanometer deep, and have a lot of guests with extremely questionable credentials.
The latter is the stuff of which blog posts are written.
My friend and fellow skeptic Scott Hurst pointed me to a video on CNN’s site from Larry King’s show on July 20. Why he would pick the anniversary of the day we walked on the Moon for the first time for this particular topic is beyond me, but then, so are the claims of his guests. They are UFO believers. They all appear to have good credentials: military men, engineers, and so on. But credentials mean little to me; I prefer evidence.
Did they have any?
Guess.
The best part: they show a video of a crop circle obviously taken from some distance away and using a telephoto. There are people walking around in it, and a white unresolved object apparently flying over it. Given that the videographer followed this object as it flew around and then off to the side, it’s clear we are to think this is some sort of flying saucer or UFO or perhaps the TARDIS.
But notice anything funny about it? Like, how no one walking around seems to notice it? What can we surmise from this?
I surmise it was a bird. That would fit all the facts in hand. Now, it appears to accelerate rapidly, but then, we don’t know where the bird is. It looks like it’s over the circle, but it might be much closer to the person taking the footage. With a big telephoto there is little depth perception, and so it could have been much closer to the camera than the circle, and just appeared between them. That’s why no one noticed it, and why it appeared to move so rapidly.
Does that explanation make more sense than it being a UFO?
And these guys talk a good game, I’ll give them that, but they all have the same story: I had great footage, but the government took it away! Yeah, OK, sure. So why are you on national TV then?
Oh, right. The gatekeepers on the news stations don’t give a fig about reality. Larry King has had all sorts of fraudulent "psychics " on his show, and UFO people, and and and. To his credit, he had Randi on once, but he still promotes all manners of irrational garbage.
So, Larry King: feh. And CNN: shame on you.
July 21st, 2008 at 4:08 pm
So … they have people caught on camera making a crop circle? And they still say UFO’s did it?!
July 21st, 2008 at 4:10 pm
He recently re-visited the Stephenville sightings and had witnesses on, including a radar expert. It was intriguing, but no real concrete evidence to support an alien visitation. The one thing they said about the object is that radar hits placed it on course for Crawford. That would explain the last seven years.
July 21st, 2008 at 4:16 pm
I saw most of the episode. He had Bill Nye on for the skeptics take on UFOs and the pro-UFO guests were being abusive towards Nye. I think one reason he had the show this week is because the X-files movie comes out soon, in Canada the History network had a week of UFOs sponsored by the X-files movie.
July 21st, 2008 at 4:17 pm
I must say that after watching that clip, it does bring up some obvious questions: What caused the shutdowns? If there is someone with the technology capable of shutting our missiles off, shouldn’t the government be placing a priority on finding out who it is? Perhaps, most importantly, who dresses Larry King?
The videos really didn’t fit with what the story was actually about.
July 21st, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Nawww, the same channel that gave Glenn Beck a show? Of course they’d answer to only the highest journalistic ethics. *Waves hand dismissively*
July 21st, 2008 at 4:33 pm
I agree — looks like a bird to me.
July 21st, 2008 at 4:47 pm
I saw that FSM-awful excuse for a television show and some of those idiots, regardless of credentials were frothing at the mouth to convince the credulous of their brand of lunacy. What really annoyed me was the limited time Shostak and Nye had to counter the stupid arguments. It goes to show that not everyone with credentials in the hard sciences can be expected to follow the evidence and the scientific method. It’s sad for all the students who had to be taught by such misguided people.
July 21st, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Here is a link to transcript for the episode
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0807/18/lkl.01.html
from the transcript Nye explains the powered dow silos to coolant system problems
NYE: Well, it looks spooky and scary, but it turns out that that day, or the day before, the power had gone out in some of the chiller units, the air conditioning, OK?
And Boeing was called out — Boeing makes the Minuteman missile — because all these things went down and they wanted to know what had happened.
July 21st, 2008 at 4:54 pm
I’m curious as to why you mention the crop circle at all since it really had nothing to do with the show except to add a little color to the screen. The Ufologists on the show were not the ones to pick out the pictures that they used for fill in and they most certainly know that most of the pictures that were used (especially of UFOs) were officially debunked some time ago. So obviously the LKL show has someone doing something he doesn’t belong doing. Those present and sitting there are not necessarily privy to what pictures are up and they don’t spend time talking about something they didn’t go there to talk about.
The topic, which you failed to mention at all was about UFOs disarming ICBM’s so why didn’t you talk about the topic instead of a picture that they had no knowledge was even going to be shown?
That is a very important topic and it concerns something certainly more important than a crop circle.
July 21st, 2008 at 4:56 pm
And, the show was on the 18th, not on the 20th
July 21st, 2008 at 4:58 pm
I agree with Phil.
Shame on CNN. We’ve seen what you’re capable of. You should be able to do much, much worse than this. No brainwashed comet suicide cult? Are you kidding? That’s your bread and butter, man!
July 21st, 2008 at 5:03 pm
You don’t really think Larry had a clue that 20 July was the anniversary of anything at all, do you?
July 21st, 2008 at 5:10 pm
Um…….DUH!!!!!!
Isn’t the same venue of journalistic intregity where a porn star and a comic told us to stop vaccinating our kids?
Phil, Phil, Phil. Whatever are you doing letting that stuff on your TV screen? Change the blankety-blank station, for cryin’ out loud.
July 21st, 2008 at 5:19 pm
The History Channel and the Discovery Channel both give way too much air time to crappy programming like this. Its a case of following the money. If I was rich I would sponsor the Skeptologists tomorrow, just to try to give some balance to TV. I don’t mind fantasy fiction dramas and such, but I hate UFO and Supernatural based shows passing themselves off as documentary and science shows. AAAAAARRG!!
July 21st, 2008 at 5:24 pm
Why are you posting the other comments from skeptics only?
It says that my comment is waiting moderation and the time on it is 4:54. There have been three comments come in from 5:03 to 5:19 so why haven’t you posted mine or are you only allowing comments from others that agree with you.
I have print screened this page and it is going in my blog as is with my comment in it. That ought to take care of that problem unless you wish to get it posted.
July 21st, 2008 at 5:26 pm
@ CanadianLeigh
Speaking of those channels, and a little OT, but did any of you catch the show on Science Channel last night, “Light Fantastic”… I’d be interested to know the opinions of some of you here on that particular program.
July 21st, 2008 at 5:34 pm
@Celtic_Evolution I don’t get the Science Channel in my location. Bummer.
July 21st, 2008 at 5:36 pm
Atrueoriginall, I have an automatic spam filter that caught your messages and put them in a moderation queue. I have to physically check it every now and again to clear it out, and I just okayed your comments.
So thanks for displaying your baseless accusation here for all to see and, more importantly, for making my own point: without evidence, it’s easy to spin just about any conspiracy theory, but when the evidence comes in, it’s usually something mundane.
Also, I said very specifically in my post that the crop circle was “the best part”. I also mentioned that these guys make lots of claims, but don’t happen to have any evidence at all to back them up. And before you posted your last comment, it was mentioned in the comments that Bill Nye debunked the missile issue.
Anything else you want to add? I’m always willing to listen to evidence, but it better be good evidence. Shaky video, fuzzy pictures, anecdotes, and eyewitness accounts are not acceptable in a scientific investigation.
July 21st, 2008 at 5:38 pm
The link to this story on cnn.com only states “UFOs blamed for nuke missile failures” with no elaboration. So the reader has to actually click on the link to discover that those blaming UFOs are a couple of crackpots and that the link is simply an advertisement for CNN’s own programming, not a valid reporting of current news. CanadianLeigh is right on with the comment that it’s all about the money.
But the most disturbing questions of all are, “What is Larry King still doing on the air?!? Who actually still watches his show? In fact, who ever watched him in the first place?”
I think a monkey with a xylophone could get similar ratings in his time slot.
July 21st, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Atrueoriginall, my post was stuck in spam filter as well.
July 21st, 2008 at 5:45 pm
You just have to read this, then (via Cosmic Variance via Dynamics of Cats) from Paul Krugman:
Cheers,
^_^J.
July 21st, 2008 at 5:53 pm
Phil,
Have you heard about the ammonia they found on Mars?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3896335.stm
What’s your take on it?
Bryan
July 21st, 2008 at 5:58 pm
Yes there is talking about baseless accusations.
You said, “Why he would pick the anniversary of the day we walked on the Moon for the first time for this particular topic is beyond me” but the date of the airing of that show was on the 18th and not the 20th. How’s that for evidence.
Where is the beforehand evidence that Bin Laden was going to take down the World Trade Center. Oops, it wasn’t there, it was too late.
Well what about a what if’. What if those ICBM’s were disarmed by another country and not UFOs.
So what is more important here, the UFO community bringing a subject to light that the majority of the American population were not privy to or a crop circle.
I have seen a UFO and I don’t mean the kind you are more familiar with either so I do think, but rather know that they exist and are in our airspace. Consequently, I know that the possibility is certainly there that they could have disarmed whatever they darn well pleased.
Hey, science dictates that something must be tested or at least observed in order to be considered fact. Accordingly, such things can only be a possibility for you and maybe theoretical so you can never ever believe and you never will unless you see what I’ve seen.
But for me, it will forever remain fact since I was an observer and it wasn’t something obscure or 5 miles off or a fuzzy dot or a light. It had a room with a natural light but there were no lights to be seen. It had a stainless steel table and short 5 foot tall beings around the table that I was laying on. And they spoke to me without moving their small mouths. Do I have proof? Hell no. Who have they ever sent back with proof and why would they ever want to do that anyway?
July 21st, 2008 at 6:03 pm
eing a ‘believer’ i watched the show and was thoroughly disappointed. I agree with much of what was said above. I agree much of the UFO footage they showed was sub standard and in some cases already debunked, including the crop circle video. I also agree that the pro-ufo guests were extremely rude and would not let the sceptics talk without interruption. This does nothing for there credibility. They reminded me of Bill O’Reilly. And I agree that Larry King is a terrible interviewer who only skims across issues and interviews. However, the sceptics also tried to constantly bring the issue around that all UFO believers think they are aliens from space, and indeed Friedman openly admitted this is his belief. The others on the panel made no such assertion, in fact I believe Jamie Fox brought up the point (and this is what I believe) that it is definitely possible these are military, and if so then the government is hiding some extraordinary technology from the public, and seemingly has done since at least the 60s. This is technology that could potentially solve the energy crisis. However this point was ignored both by King and the sceptics. I don’t think you can completely dismiss witness testimony from military officers, engineers and scientists with good credentials. They deserve to be listened to. Of all the witnesses that have come forward with super tight credentials there is definitely a case to be made for an open investigation into the phenomenon. A good point that was mad was that the sceptics do not research the phenomenon themselves, they just take the ‘aliens from another galaxy’ hypothesis and throw around all the age old reasons why this is not possible, although some sceptics are opening up to the idea that there is physics out there we are unaware of atm. If sceptics were to research all the available government documents. As Fox said he had with him, a 1950 memo obtained through FOIA from W B Smith, a Canadian Engineer who wrote a memo to the Canadian govt. In this memo he unequivocally states that:
a. The matter is the most highly classified subject in the United States
Government, rating higher even than the H-bomb.
b. Flying saucers exist.
c. Their modus operandi is unknown but concentrated effort is being made
by a small group headed by Doctor Vannevar Bush.
d. The entire matter is considered by the United States authorities to be
of tremendous significance.
Fox brought this up and King didn’t even acknowledge it. WTF?!?!
Is it amateur hour over there at CNN or what??
July 21st, 2008 at 6:11 pm
Here is a more likely explanation to what you expreinced.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis
July 21st, 2008 at 6:14 pm
Atrueoriginal, I too have seen a “UFO”, when I was 16 years old. However, I chose to do a little investigating. I reported the object to the RCMP, described it as a tumbling cylindrical object that trailed a tail of fire. It turns out that it was the booster from a Russian rocket.
Now, what you are describing has been duplicated at Laurentian University, in a science lab.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14419523.700-alien-abduction-the-inside-story-thousands-of-americans-believe-they-have-had-a-close-encounter-of-the-alien-kind-what-on-earth-is-going-on-.html
July 21st, 2008 at 6:25 pm
@ Atrueoriginal
Where is the beforehand evidence that Bin Laden was going to take down the World Trade Center. Oops, it wasn’t there, it was too late.
Ummm… you may want to actually read up on that one, buddy… not sure you can make that statement.
Well what about a what if’. What if those ICBM’s were disarmed by another country and not UFOs.
Or hey… what if the military just had a massive screwup and decided to keep everyone in the dark about it… and without official explanation, the credulous, like yourself, have a field day tossing out any old wild-eyed theory. That sounds more plausible to me. Spend enough time here, and you’ll learn that the burden of proof with outlandish claims is not on us to prove that they aren’t true, it is on those who make the claims… and as Phil has already pointed out, they have zero evidence.
So what is more important here, the UFO community bringing a subject to light that the majority of the American population were not privy to or a crop circle.
Are those the only two options? How about the most impolrtant thing being NOT allowing a bunch of lunatics like the “UFO community” to profit on people’s fear and gullibility by selling books based on wild speculation backed with little or no evidence? Wanna guess which one I think is the most important thing?
I have seen a UFO and I don’t mean the kind you are more familiar with either so I do think, but rather know that they exist and are in our airspace.
Care to clarify that? If by UFO you mean something you can’t identify, then we can all agree that we know there are UFOs in our airspace. If by UFO you mean aline flying craft… sorry, buddy… show me some proof. UFO doesn’t mean alien, necessarily. And Phil has shown many times on this site the power of the mind to trick you into seeing something that isn’t really what it seems.
Hey, science dictates that something must be tested or at least observed in order to be considered fact. Accordingly, such things can only be a possibility for you and maybe theoretical so you can never ever believe and you never will unless you see what I’ve seen.
Feh… I doubt even you actually know what it was you really saw. Does that mean there can only be one explanation? Alien technology? Again, in ALL the time UFOlogists have been thumping this drum, over 50 years… not one single piece of real, actual, testible, falsifiable evidence has surfaced. Not one. Now ask yourself what the most likely explanation for that is… not the one you want to believe… but the most likely one.
But for me, it will forever remain fact since I was an observer and it wasn’t something obscure or 5 miles off or a fuzzy dot or a light.
Wow… how very special that must have made you seem… for them to select you out of the millions and millions they could have chosen… you. Wonderful… special… you. I hope you see where I’m going with that…
July 21st, 2008 at 6:27 pm
You know… I really didn’t read Atrueoriginal’s last paragraph carefully until just now…
Now I feel really, really dumb for wasting my time with that whole, long reply. :/
July 21st, 2008 at 6:34 pm
Atrueoriginall said It had a stainless steel table and short 5 foot tall beings around the table that I was laying on. And they spoke to me without moving their small mouths.
Please tell me that they were singing the Oompa Loompa song? Sorry, I shouldn’t make fun of what was obviously a very traumatic dream. I saw a face appear in the window of my 3rd floor apartment once. Really scary. It feels like a real memory but I know it was a dream. Sleep paralysis can be scary.
July 21st, 2008 at 6:41 pm
I have heard countless people relate that they have had this “abduction” experience, and it has affected them profoundly and traumatized many of them. However, making the leap that these are little grey beings floating into your room in the middle of the night and floating you out up to their spaceship is a stretch. Wouldn’t it make more sense to consider the possibility that it is sleep paralysis. I have experienced sleep paralysis (not to the extent of believing I was taken), and it is absolutely terrifying to be unable to move.
July 21st, 2008 at 6:42 pm
@ Brent Plowright
I don’t think you can completely dismiss witness testimony from military officers, engineers and scientists with good credentials.
With a complete and utter lack of any corroberating physical evidence of any kind, whatsoever, I most certainly can. I was in the military, and I can tell you that some of the best regarded officers were also some of the loopiest. And I currently work with a brilliant aerospace engineer who also happens to be convinced of the existence of Niburu. So please stop with the “infallable credentials” fallacy. Good, even intelligent, people have been conned into believing stranger crap than this.
A good point that was mad was that the sceptics do not research the phenomenon themselves,
It wasn’t a good point… it was an out and out lie. Skeptics don’t research the phenomenon? On the contrary… the very job of the skeptic is to research the phenomenon. And we have done so… extensively… over and over again… far more than the “believer” in fact. And come to the same conclusion… every time.
they just take the ‘aliens from another galaxy’ hypothesis and throw around all the age old reasons why this is not possible, although some sceptics are opening up to the idea that there is physics out there we are unaware of atm
Huh? Which skeptics would those be? Citation please.
a 1950 memo obtained through FOIA from W B Smith, a Canadian Engineer who wrote a memo to the Canadian govt. In this memo he unequivocally states that:
OK… so a 1950’s kook, who also happens to be an engineer, (see my reason above for why that means nothing where this matter is concerned), writes a letter to the Canadian government where he expresses his opinion. So what? I could do the exact same thing, but without actual evidence, I’m just another nutjob writing unsolicited memos to the government. Like a million other people. What does that have to do with proof of the existence of Alien visitors?
July 21st, 2008 at 6:49 pm
I do not know if I will post this, it might not read well. I read an article not too long ago regarding DNA testing and crime. According to this article there have been close to 1200 rape convictions in the US overturned by DNA evidence. I believe that in the over whelming number of cases the victims would have been completely sincere in their identification of their reapist as the man resposible. In a few cases cited in the article the women were devistated to hear they had helped convict the wrong man. It has to serve as a powerful lesson regarding the fraility of our memories and our power of observation. Even a decade ago, it would be argued that such a traumatic experience would “burn” the incident into someones memory. Yet physical evidence has to prevail. Some evidence has to wait for our technology to catch up to be analyzed fully, however, we still have to base our knowledge on what the evidence can prove today. Bill Nye tried to relate to evidence in a courtroom but was unable to complete his line of thought.
The human mind cannot tell a false memory from a true memory, so be gentle with those with memories not supported with physical evidence. It must be very painful to carry such memories around with you no matter whether they are based in fact or not.
Has anyone ever talked to an astronomer at a star party who has observed a UFO? For all the looking up and all the careful observing of the sky, I think amature astronomers are the least represented in the UFO witnesses.
July 21st, 2008 at 6:50 pm
@Davidlpf & Michael L — Having had a dozen or so episodes of sleep paralysis myself , over the years (including one that was a text book “alien abduction”), I agree. Mine have all been extremely vivid (visual and auditory) and they seemed completely real at the time. When I was a child, I did not know what was happening and it was frightening. When I was in my 20’s I ran across an article about sleep paralysis and started researching it. It’s the most reasonable explanation.
July 21st, 2008 at 6:51 pm
No Michael L, I was in the California high desert at a place called El Mirage Dry Lake where we would take out dirt bikes out to ride and camp on Friday and Saturday nights. I was not the only one abducted that evening. My husband was as well.
Phil: Where did you get the idea that Bill Nye debunked the military issue of the program. He was simply the house skeptic that night and had nothing to throw out there with “well there could have been some other reason that they all went down”.
As well, he managed to make a fool out of himself by thinking that the Phoenix sighting were the flares and not the actual sighting that came a good hour plus previous to the flares. Nye has no research under his belt whatsoever so he had no right even being there, which made it easy for the researchers to lay into him when they realized that. They were livid that he was even there again that night because he was on a previous UFO show with Larry King about a week or two prior.
I doubt he’ll be back.
July 21st, 2008 at 6:52 pm
Paul Hellyer, a former Canadian Defence Minister also believes Bush is building a base on the far side of the Moon to fend of an alien attack:
http://www.ufobc.ca/Beyond/exopolitics.htm
It must be our beer…
July 21st, 2008 at 7:03 pm
Jewel please the sleep paralysis thing is so over done. And no, I’m not fantasy prone either if that is the next statement that someone cares to make.
How do you think that aliens can abduct without a fight. Did you ever think that they can induce sleep paralysis in order to accomplish what it is they need to accomplish in order to get you on board. You are conscience and you are mobile. You are no longer where you were as you watch yourself being moved in a fashion you cannot describe.
Considering their probable age, their technology is most likely unfathomable and so I would imagine that they have a great understanding of the human brain, which would give them the ability to inflict just about anything that would obviously mimic something that medical science already has a name for.
July 21st, 2008 at 7:04 pm
Atrueoriginal, the onus falls on you to provide the physical proof of such an event. How can your experience be tested and measured? I’m honestly interested in your experience, and I do not mock those that say they have experienced something. Some “abductees” have experienced a traumatic event. However, to assume that it has to be aliens while ignoring all other options is bad science.
July 21st, 2008 at 7:07 pm
Well hell, Larry King interviewed one of the Ghostbusters - Venkman, I think - so why would you think he had any credibility left?
July 21st, 2008 at 7:10 pm
Atrueoriginal:
“How do you think that aliens can abduct without a fight. Did you ever think that they can induce sleep paralysis in order to accomplish what it is they need to accomplish in order to get you on board. You are conscience and you are mobile. You are no longer where you were as you watch yourself being moved in a fashion you cannot describe.”
That’s a classic definition of sleep paralysis. We could say back, oh please, the alien abduction is so over done. Why would one refuse to accept that as a viable explanation? Hundreds of years ago, there are accounts of beings floating into bedrooms and taking people into the forests. These beings were often described as faeries, trolls, or other mythical beings that were popular within the folklokre of the culture at the time.
July 21st, 2008 at 7:10 pm
Atrueoriginal
Took a look-see around your site… yikes! Credulous doesn’t even begin to describe it. You really need to look at things a little more closely… like the picture you have about 2/3rds of the way down your page… the one of the saucer against the blue sky (taken in Galviston), even I could tell in about 4 seconds that I was looking at a double exposure of a sky over a standard light fixture… good grief. My daughter knew what it was too, without even being prompted. Some people just want, no need to believe in this junk. I have no idea why.
July 21st, 2008 at 7:12 pm
@ Atrueoriginal
And no, I’m not fantasy prone either if that is the next statement that someone cares to make.
A quick look around your website indicates quite the contrary, my dear…
July 21st, 2008 at 7:12 pm
Sleep paralysis was what kept us from falling out of trees. Having fallen on my noggin from bed a few times I think I was lucky my genetic line is still around.
July 21st, 2008 at 7:12 pm
Celtic, I saw that too, and immediately thought, “Light fixture!”
July 21st, 2008 at 7:14 pm
I don’t think the sleep paralysis thing is over done at all. It is a reasonable, verifiable, explanation for experiences such as these. We can reproduce them in a lab. Perhaps sleep paralysis does not account for all of these experiences, but I’d wager they are responsible for a good many of them.
Without a shred of corroborating physical evidence, we’re just suppose believe that what you (and others) think happened actually happened? You’re making claims you can’t prove. I’m sure you think you had this experience, but I’m not about to leap on the least likely scenario when there are so many more likely explanations.
July 21st, 2008 at 7:19 pm
@CanadianLeigh - I’ve been an amateur astronomer for most of my life, and in all the decades of being out under the stars I can state for a fact I have never seen anything like a “UFO.”
Also, as a scientist, I believe in hard data and hard facts. And that is something the UFO nutjobs can’t produce.
July 21st, 2008 at 7:29 pm
The ten minute video clip of the LKL show that CNN posted on its website also fails to show or even mention that Bill Nye or any other skeptics appeared on the show. Very poor and misleading journalism by CNN. Maybe we should stop calling it “journalism” and just call it “marketing”.
July 21st, 2008 at 7:30 pm
@ Michael L
Celtic, I saw that too, and immediately thought, “Light fixture!”
Yeah… and as an experiment, I brought my wife in, and asked her about it, and in 3 seconds she said (and excuse the crass reference… hehe…), “that’s one of those ‘boob lights’ like we have in the hallway”.
I also asked her if she’s ever experienced sleep paralysis and she immediately shuddered and said, “yeah… and it’s always some horrible vision or something I really want to not be happening but am just powerless to do anything about… I HATE those”.
Oh… and I hadn’t noticed this when I wrote it, but I made the point earlier that perhaps there was some connection perhaps between “Atrueoriginall”’s credulousness and a need to feel special… without realizing the ironic connection between that point and her screen-name…
July 21st, 2008 at 7:30 pm
[…] Thanks to Phil for pointing this out on his blog. […]
July 21st, 2008 at 7:32 pm
@Kevin - Thanks, I had actually meant to say “as UFO witnesses”. No one I have ever spoken to at a star party has ever claimed to see a UFO, and some have admitted to wanting to when they acutally have the equipment to make high quality photos or videos of these “objects”. I even know a comet hunter who videos the sky all night long looking for comets. If anyone would capture aomething on tape, he would. There are also several researchers in northern Canada recording the sky with wide angle lenses every clear night to record the northern lights. Again none of the photo shy UFO’s have shown themselves. I have seen some video that is hard to explain what it is, but they never have any guage for prospective to allow for proper examination. We then have to fall back on the requirement of real physical evidence.
July 21st, 2008 at 7:32 pm
@atrueoriginal, we may be making light of your situation in a tongue and cheek manner, and I’m sure you truly believe what you experienced was an honest aliean abduction, but without proof, your story doesn’t hold up. Evidence is the only think we have at this point to maintain rational thought. You could say you saw the virgin mary materialize out of thin air directly in front of you, and yet, with no evidence, we’re supposed to believe it? How about if 15 people saw the virgin mary suddenly reach down to earth, yet with no shred, absolutely no shred of physical proof. Oh, well, the military and church leaders conspired to hide her so blah blah blah.
Perhaps your observations seem true to you, but our minds are very complex things, and we can be fooled into seeing and hearing objects that don’t really exist. After all, what we see and hear, and then process in our brains are just simulations of the real world, and in doing so, there are truly psychological happenings that cause some type of frame-shift in the mind. What you viewed as an alien abduction, fully convinced of it that none of us will ever dissuade you, people viewed as witch craft, or demon possession hundreds of years prior (in some places, it still occurs). Maybe you should check your grain stores for ergot poisoning.
July 21st, 2008 at 7:36 pm
@CanadianLeigh & Kevin, when I’ve been in a very dark spot observing, I must say, there’s always been the thought, “Hmm, if these little grey guys are real, I’m really screwed out here!” Fortunately, they have never shown up. Although I have been freaked out by several very bright “Shooting stars” over the years. I think I watched too much X-Files.
July 21st, 2008 at 7:37 pm
Phil, I generally like your website but the hostility you frequently display toward those you disagree with detracts from your point. I sympathize when your hostility is directed at the distinctly anti-science — such as creationists — but at other times you go overboard.
While I agree that any particular claim that a UFO sighting represents an extraterrestrial spacecraft should be granted with more than a healthy dose of skepticism, your readers deserve to know there is a growing and I think healthy debate over the very real possibility intelligent life is out there and it may have the ability and the inclination to travel to Earth.
The people suggesting this possibility and not crackpots, they are legitimate scientists like you. In fact, at an upcoming SETI/astrobiology conference in Paris in September, one of the controversies to be debated is the wisdom of so-called Active SETI, or METI (Messages to Extraterrestrial Intelligence).
This controversy revolves around the possibility advanced extraterrestrial civilizations may exist in our galactic neighborhood (i.e., the ones SETI is searching for) and that they may have the ability to travel here and may not be benign. (Without recapping the entire debate here, readers can simply Google the phrase “Active SETI.”)
Astronomers typically dismiss out of hand the possibility of interstellar travel, even though statistics tell us (based on the age of the galaxy) that if we do have galactic neighbors, odds are they are fantastically older and far more advanced than we are.
Engineers, on the other hand,frequently do not dismiss the possibility of interstellar travel.(Remember, it was two bicycle makers from Ohio who built the first airplane, not a scientist.) Hence, even NASA is spending a very modest sum researching Breakthrough Propulsion Physics that could someday enable humans — who have been a spacefaring species for only 50 years — to achieve interstellar travel.
I could write far more (and have at my own blog: http://estimateofthesituation.blogspot.com/ )where I have blogged extensively on this controversy and its implications.
My point is this: if you do not dismiss the Drake Equation hypothesis underlying SETI and much of astrobiology as insane (maybe you do), one does not have to be a crackpot to suggest an advanced technological civilization that may be 100,000 or even millions of years older than we are has achieved at least robotic interstellar travel.
Any particular claim should be treated with skepticism, but the extraterrestrial hypothesis is worthy of examination and not thoughtless ridicule. At least a growing number of your colleagues think so.
July 21st, 2008 at 7:40 pm
I was at a dark location not too far from home at about 2am surrounded by trees and farmland, not realizing one of the farms was raising peacocks. One of the damn things let out a screech that just about made me fill my drawers. I was seeing all sorts of things after that.
July 21st, 2008 at 7:58 pm
Adam Korbitz, I do not dismiss out of hand aliens. In fact, I have done countless interviews where I talk about that possibility.
What I dismiss are exactly what I talked about: blurry photos, crop circles, and evidenceless claims.
In fact, I write about this *extensively* in my upcoming book.
July 21st, 2008 at 8:00 pm
This reminds me of a story I heard one time from Georgia, I think. Some guy saw a huge triangular shaped craft silently drifting over his field. Fortunately, he was prepared. He had a 12 gauge shotgun with him, and began firing away at the object. Suddenly a hatch opens on the bottom, and out pops some guy in combat fatigues, yelling, “For the love of God, STOP shooting!” When I read that a few years ago, I almost fell on the floor laughing.
July 21st, 2008 at 8:02 pm
That UFO picture on atrueorignall’s page is the most hilarious UFO pic I’ve seen. Definitely worth a look if you haven’t already. If the photographer would just look up next time he/she is in their living room they’ll see the UFO again. Thanks!
July 21st, 2008 at 8:10 pm
@Celtic_Evolution
“With a complete and utter lack of any corroberating physical evidence of any kind, whatsoever, I most certainly can (completely dismiss witness testimony).”
So are you saying that ALL the witnesses that have ever come forward about a military cover-up of the phenomenon or the phenomenon itself are outright lying? Eye witness testimony is an instrumental tool in the judicial system and to completely dismiss is dangerously irrsponsible. As a sceptic, as you proclaim you are, you are supposed to judge ALL the evidence on its merrits, not just the physical kind. True?
“I was in the military, and I can tell you that some of the best regarded officers were also some of the loopiest. And I currently work with a brilliant aerospace engineer who also happens to be convinced of the existence of Niburu. So please stop with the “infallable credentials” fallacy. Good, even intelligent, people have been conned into believing stranger crap than this.”
I absolutely agree that credentials certainly are not everything. However, if the US govt. trusts certain people with certain tasks and equipment ie: Gordon Cooper - Ex Nasa Astronaut and witness to the cover-up; then surely they must maintain some level common sense, or, I would argue, as in Cooper’s case, they would not be trusted with a billion dollar spacecraft. I am quite sure significant psychological testing is undergone before many of these people are aloowed to perform the duties they perform.
To be brilliant or a genius often you will find that many of these people are, should we say, eccentric. That tends to come with the territory of a brilliant mind. Also, many of the military witnesses or military industrial complex witnesses have nothing to gain by coming forward with this information. They are not writing books, they are not making documentaries, so why do it? I would agree that some who come out with these stories have financial motives behind them, and any logical person should almost immediately dismiss these but what about those that do not?
Also i never said their credentials were infallible.
“It wasn’t a good point (sceptics do not research the phenomenon themselves)… it was an out and out lie. Skeptics don’t research the phenomenon? On the contrary… the very job of the skeptic is to research the phenomenon. And we have done so… extensively… over and over again… far more than the “believer” in fact. And come to the same conclusion… every time.”
In my experience and the books I have read of sceptics (yes, i do research both sides of the story) it seems that sceptics simply try to refute point by point research that others have done. If you know of some material whereby a sceptic has completely conducted his own research and used only his research to come to the conclusion that this is “crap”, please suggest some, I would be very interested to read them.
“Huh? Which skeptics would those be? Citation please.”
Sorry, i meant scientists. Although I hope very much that there are some recognised sceptics out there that do not honestly think we know EVERYTHING there is to know about physics. In fact, I believe one of the sceptics on King’s show openly said that wormholes were not as bad a theory as some of the others they were throwing around. Cited
a 1950 memo obtained through FOIA from W B Smith, a Canadian Engineer who wrote a memo to the Canadian govt. In this memo he unequivocally states that:
“OK… so a 1950’s kook, who also happens to be an engineer, (see my reason above for why that means nothing where this matter is concerned), writes a letter to the Canadian government where he expresses his opinion. So what? I could do the exact same thing, but without actual evidence, I’m just another nutjob writing unsolicited memos to the government. Like a million other people. What does that have to do with proof of the existence of Alien visitors?”
1. I never, at any stage, mention aliens. The only mention in the memo of this is that Smith mentions the conclusion of the 2 books he has cited, he in no way asserts he believes this to the case. Once again you have done what I have stated in my above post that sceptics always do.
2. He had access to Canadian Embassy staff, he mentions that “Mr. Wright, Defense Research Board liaison officer at the Canadian Embassy in Washington, was extremely anxious for me to get in touch with Doctor Solandt, Chairman of the Defense Research Board” whem he later states he did meet with. This does not sound like an ordinary citizen, like you or me, he has high level governement and scientific contacts.
July 21st, 2008 at 8:10 pm
To Helioprogenus : Like I said, you can never honestly believe because you never observed. You can only sit on the outside and wonder about the possibility.
Only I can believe and I do. There isn’t an ounce in me that doesn’t know what happened.
Before he died Barney Hill said that his the tape recording of his hypnosis could be released to the public. Here it is. I just want you to hear a little of what takes place and maybe you’ll understand just a little more. Again, I’m not asking you to believe because I know that you cannot.
Now I’m hoping that this blog takes address urls. lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiKyo1vq3_I
July 21st, 2008 at 8:19 pm
@ Adam Korbitz
there is a growing and I think healthy debate over the very real possibility intelligent life is out there and it may have the ability and the inclination to travel to Earth.
You make a huge leap between the first part of your statement and the second, and do so as if it were a subtle difference. And therein lies the fault in your argument.
None of us here, myself included, doubts that life may, and in fact probably does, exist on other worlds. But the leap of faith comes in following that logic out to insinuate that intelligent life is capable of, and has visited, our planet.
None of us has ever stated, contrary to what was stated earlier, that it’s abjectly “impossible” to make the trip to visit us… but I have to ask again, where is the evidence? In all this time… all these years, not one single piece of definable, testible evidence. Which leaves only a few possibilities:
1. Aliens can travel to earth. They do, but are just secretive about it as to not alert us to their presence, so as not to interfere, as it were (think Star Trek’s “Prime Directive”). And they accomplish this succesfully, in which case we wouldn’t know it, so there’s no debate.
2. Scenario No. 1 is true, but the Aliens, despite their superior technology and intellect that would allow them to make the journey, are a bit clumsy and occassionally slip up and get “caught on camera”… but not by people who’s job it is to look at the sky almost continually… no… they only get caught by amature photographers with fair to poor equipment. Hmmm… tough to believe…
3. Scenario no. 1 is true, but the gov’t knows about it, and removes evidence from people places and maintains the cover-up with threats of death and destruction of livlihood. But its OK if you go on TV and blab about it. The gov’t doesn’t care about that. Great X-files scenario… not one ounce of actual proof of that in the real world.
4. Aliens have the capacity to travel to this planet, but only a very few of them have evolved to that point, and have as of yet not discovered earth and its multitude of species, or just have not gotten to us yet. We can’t really know that one, now can we? Not at this time.
5. Aliens don’t have the capacity to travel to this planet.
Given the lack of any shred of evidence for 1-4, I’m gonna have to go with 5 until I see some real evidence otherwise. Deosn’t mean I think it’s impossile, just unlikely based on the evidence we have so far.
July 21st, 2008 at 8:26 pm
I watched most of it live…i got a chuckle when one of the ufo believers said that the reason that the states aren’t admitting that ufo’s exist, if I heard him right, is that humans will then want to send a group of people to represent earth and the representatives will be picked by a vote…and since the States only have 300 million while china and india have LOTS more they won’t be represented correctly…HUHH!!!
I felt bad for bill nye…
July 21st, 2008 at 8:26 pm
Okay for the ones that believe tht aliens have visited Earth why do they probe every male in a rather awkward spot, or go and chop some deFenseless cattle.
I do think there is life out there but I think we lack proof that they have been here.
July 21st, 2008 at 8:32 pm
Larry King also recently had a horrible program I happened to catch while looking for real news. His show that night was devoted to child psychics. The obscene thing is that these deluded kids were being manipulated and encouraged by adults. Personally, I think misleading these kids is tantamount to a form of child abuse. Among the smug panelists, was the ‘worthy-of-a-South-Park-parody’: John Edward.
July 21st, 2008 at 8:39 pm
@ Brent Plowright…
Oh geez… just saw your website.
Seriously, Brent… I could spend all night arguing with you about the ability of even the most credible, credential-laden witnesses in dozens of criminal trials giving erroneous testimony, AND, furthermore I will state that almost never is someone convicted of a serious crime based solely on witness testimony. Physiocal evidence of some sort is almost (and note that I will qualify that statement with almost, because that fallability of our judicial system was already covered earlier in this thread, re: DNA evidence) always needed for conviction.
So, the only part of your diatribe I will even touch is the first part, cause it’s really the only thing you have to lean on… So are you saying that ALL the witnesses that have ever come forward about a military cover-up of the phenomenon or the phenomenon itself are outright lying?
Nice strawman, but I never said that… I said they are probably wrong. Could be deluded, could be confused, afflicted with a physical condition that made them think they saw things a certain way… or the could be lying. I don’t know… I just contend they are wrong. Yes. All of them. Every one. Every last one.
And why? Well, I hate to beat a dead horse here, but again… in all the time we’ve been hearing about these UFO phenomenon… not one single piece of hard evidence? Not one? And you think I should simply accept eye-witness accounts as the ONLY needed proof? Look… 25 years ago thousands of people swore David Copperfield made the Statue of Liberty disappear. You think there weren’t some credible, credential laden people in that audience. Ask any good illusionist about the power of the human mind to be easily deceived.
July 21st, 2008 at 8:45 pm
@CanadianLeigh
I have been ou observing on numerous occasions from my southern Ontario dark site, thinking to myself how lovely the night is, only to have it shattered by the death screams of some small animal encountering a fox or coyote. Kinda disconcerting. And though I know they are harmless to me, I feel a lot better in my observatory…
July 21st, 2008 at 8:46 pm
Still haven’t seen a UFO though.
July 21st, 2008 at 8:46 pm
I occasionally am awake and recording memories, and even thinking and reasoning (to a degree), but I’m …. not all there. A couple months ago I woke up in the middle of the night, and I was convinced that there was a book flying around the room (it had wings, Harry Potter style). I ran over to the door of my room, flipped on the light switch, and then grabbed a pillow. I spent a good (and looong) 45 seconds hunting that darned flying book (”Where could it have gone! It was just right here!”) before my brain suddenly rebooted and I went, “WTF am I doing!!!?” to myself.
It felt incredibly real, and I have full memories of that book flying around. That’s not the first that kind of thing has happened to me, but it is the most vivid. It is a kind of half-dream type thing. Very strange.
Anyway, for me it was a flying book. I have a freaking library in my bedroom, so that isn’t surprising. For someone else? Maybe an alien. Maybe a sex dream. Maybe they can’t shake the feeling that they are five years old and their mom is tucking them into bed. Maybe a ghost. It could be anything. For me, discounting the existence of a Harry Potter style flying book isn’t that difficult. But it was terrifying, cause that book was out to get me, and I couldn’t defend myself against it. If I had dreamt up something more real-ish than a flying book, I’d have been seriously screwed up, trying to figure out whether or not it had actually happened.
July 21st, 2008 at 8:50 pm
The flying balls of light around the missiles looked an awful lot like ball lightning to me. That stuff is just weird. Why make things up when nature provides us with weird and wonderful things like that?
July 21st, 2008 at 8:58 pm
jb Says: “I felt bad for bill nye…”
So did I. And that’s it right there. So did many, many people who grew up with him and his crazy examples and silliness, which made for a great teacher. My daughter grew up with Bill Nye the Science guy and so he was our buddy. This is the way everyone felt and I wished that the ufologists would have made a mental note on that beforehand because it somewhat hurt our trek in all of this.
I have a few blogs so I have Google and Blog alerts and I cannot count the number of articles that have been flying around the Internet since the evening of the 18th about Bill Nye having his feelings hurt on national television.
Those researchers knew who he was certainly and they know that he has a great following because of the person he is but when they also realized that he had really no real knowledge on UFO sightings they couldn’t hold back what they had to say. His boo boo on the Phoenix thing is what buried him, so to speak. As well, the ufologist are so burnt out with the likes of Shermer and MaGaha that they were probably ready to spit bullets at Bill Nye anyway.
Then again, without using the word and instead dancing around that word, Bill Nye basically called Bob Jacob’s a liar first. So who’s to blame?
So maybe Larry should get a skeptic (for balance) who does have a fair amount of research on UFOs under his belt. They do exist, I read an article today and it was written by just such a person.
Shermer and MaGaha are just skeptics (skeptics of anything) and again never really researched the subjects to any great degree. They throw out the same ole same that “it could have been this and it could have been that” when there are people sitting there telling them in their own words that they saw what they saw. When the skeptic says something to the contrary at that point, the witness to the UFO is now extremely offended because they were just called a liar without using the word. So sure it’ll get heavy.
Bill Nye will survive but like I said previously, I really doubt he’ll say yes to Larry again.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:04 pm
i feel sorry for the skeptics i do…the time is running out where you can ignore what is going on skeptics.
“Derr ufo” search phrase at youtube.com… or use search phrase “new jersey ufo” . it is not that skeptics cannot think- they can- we have to wait and see once they see the proper material if they actually will change. search phrase “uk ufo” at google news will show you england is flooded with ufo sightings for the last year or so. the author of the top info saying the former air force officers are not credible witnesses to ufos being real is just not able to think rationally. from , Cy
July 21st, 2008 at 9:18 pm
To atrueoriginall:
I have to agree with the crowd on this one. Your Galveston “UFO” is definitely terrestrial. Your tweaking actually helped to show up the floral-type design in the glass. To me it looks like a light either in or behind a glass or crystal fruit bowl. As the other posters have pointed out, it could also be a light fitting.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:21 pm
Atrueoriginall, Phillip Klass was a noted skeptic and UFO researcher maybe you should look at some of his work.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:25 pm
Celtic Evolution (and Phl): Read my entire post again, you obviously miss the point or choose to twist my words.
I’m not claiming aliens have travelled to Earth. I’m only claiming legitimate scientists (other than Phil) are now suggesting we seriously consider they may be capable of doing it if they exist. Other scientists are also suggesting we should bother to actually look for the evidence (which scientists, in general, do not do today). If you don’t look for the evidence, you will not find it except serendipitously. And if you dismiss out of hand that the evidence can possibly exist, you certainly will not look for it or find it.
Seriously, you guys sound like the skeptics who once ridiculed those who claimed rocks (meteorites) fell from the sky or that germs caused disease! Folks with your viewpoint will often say, “Show me a crashed saucer.” Well, what if there aren’t any to be had? What if the only evidence we have to work with are photographs, radar data and corresponding eyewitness testimony? Do we dismiss out of hand all reports or theories about physical phenomena under these circumstances? Good grief, theoretically we knew for decades that other solar systems should exist but didn’t find the first one until the 1990s! We only looked because the theory said if we did we would find the evidence.
I would like to see less ridicule on these pages and more examinaton of the theoretical assumptions underlying astrobiology, exoplanets, SETI, humanity’s own study of interstellar travel, and the implications of these fields. Then, maybe, you’ll have the groundwork laid for a thoughtful debate of the UFO phenomena.
But, it’s your blog Phil. If your readers want what I’m looking for, they can check out mine: http://estimateofthesituation.blogspot.com/
July 21st, 2008 at 9:30 pm
I don’t have cable but still have an opinion: I wish they’d replace him. He’s propped up Sylvia Browne, doesn’t offer up enough of the skeptic perspective. He’s abrasive and rude, not telegenic in the least. He has a prime time time slot that anyone could attract a plethora of viewers. To some degree I suppose they are giving the public what they want, but hey why not challenge the populous and try to make them more informed and enlightened? To me skepticism should be the prime attribute of a journalist (as well as any investigator). King isn’t one and his show is a failure at anything except being fluff.
July 21st, 2008 at 9:56 pm
Put me down as another amateur astronomer with thousands of hours under the night sky who has never seen a UFO. But I have seen satellites, aurorae, space stations, meteors, underlit birds, planets, the moon, airplanes, bags-and-candles, balloons, blimps and spooky clouds, all things that people unused to the sky could easily mistake for UFOs.
I would like to see some real physical evidence. Otherwise, how can I safely distinguish a UFO spotter from a liar, a nut, or someone who can’t tell his fundament from his elbow?
July 21st, 2008 at 9:57 pm
btw, Bill Nye is a big hero of mine and my kids, especially for making the effort to educate these goofballs. Bill, if you read this blog, you rock.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:01 pm
Adam, you wrote a 9 paragraph comment saying that aliens and FTL are a possibility. That strongly indicates you think it’s viable. That is a logical and obvious conclusion to draw from what you wrote.
I am not claiming they aren’t traveling to Earth. I am saying the evidence anyone has of this is worthless.
Let me make this clear: Show me the evidence. Real evidence, evidence that would pass a scientific test.
That’s all I ask. Some piece of reality. When I see that, then we can talk. Until then, all UFO believers have is an invisible pink unicorn in the garage.
I said the same thing of Atrueoriginall, and what does he give us? A recording of a guy making claims. I cannot be any more clear on this. Eyewitness testimony is worthless as evidence. it is only the first step — if that — in an investigation. Corpus delicti is the key here.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:07 pm
King might have been something at one time, and might have had some journalistic integrity but clearly he’s gotten sloppy and lazy. He acts like he’s just waiting to retire.
Shame on him. Give it a rest already and get a new Anderson Cooper in his place.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:29 pm
Phil,
I really like you. I love watching your bad astronomy videos etc. and reading your blog, but come on man! One hundred billion stars in our galaxy and one hundred billion galaxies in our universe. Are you honestly trying to tell me (without physical evidence) that we are the only ones in the inhabitable universe?
So you look for solid evidence. You use the method. Thats great, but science does not hold all the answers. Yes, I’m a very strong advocate of proper scientific education and using the method. However, look around you -SETI, disclosure project, the SETI league…… Do these people look for solid physical evidence? Of course they do. But I’m sure they also believe that other forms of life exist in the universe. Surely you wouldn’t call Jill Tarter and Seth Shostak non-credible both being trained in the method?
Face the facts. The Disclosure project was aired on the national press club in 2001 with numerous eyewitness accounts of UFO and extraterrestrial activity. It just so happened that 9/11 occurred around the same time and as a result it did not get the coverage it deserved.
The evidence for is mounting up my friend. Hundreds of extrasolar planets have already been found. Its only a matter of time.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:29 pm
Can anyone explain to me the phenomena of sleep paralysis? It sounds interesting.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:45 pm
Ya know, I’m torn on this issue, ’cause a big part of me WANTS to believe, but
the skeptic in me knows how unlikely it is that we are being visited by extra-terrestrials.
I’m sure if we are, though, they’re putting up the galactic equivalent of
caution tape around this little ball!
Michio Kaku allows for the possibility, so I’ll keep a little hope going, but I’m certainly
not holding my breath.
BTW, definitely a lamp cover, no doubt about that, anyway.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:47 pm
IBY, here is a link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis
July 21st, 2008 at 10:56 pm
IBY, Davidlpf gave this link way up the top somewhere
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis
I remember hearing about an experiment on cats where the the dohickey in the brain of the cat that turns on the paralysis in sleep was disabled. When the cat dreamed it got up and ran around and generally acted out its dreams.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:57 pm
Adam Korbitz:
You mean ambiguous photographs, inconclusive radar data, and subjective, rarely corroborated eyewitness testimony? Hell yes, we dismiss those! We reject them right into the dustbin. Such “information” is tolerated (and only barely) only in the court system, where some sort of conclusion must be drawn in a timely fashion - at that point, you use whatever you can get your hands on. And anyway, you’ll consistently find that hard evidence trumps eyewitness testimony.
In science, though, there is rarely any such urgency. In science we WAIT for the hard evidence to hang our hats on. Once we get it, then we probe (so to speak) to find more of it.
July 21st, 2008 at 10:59 pm
About twenty years ago, I took a group of friends, mostly fellow teachers, through Haleakala “Crater”, on the island of Maui. We spent the first night in Kapalaoa Cabin, at about 7000 ft elevation. During the fast descending tropical twilight, someone came in and said, “Everybody come look, there’s a UFO!” We rushed out, and sure enough, there was a bright object just above the mountainous horizon opposite us. I, being the nerdy physics teacher and (very) amateur astronomer, suggested that it was a star or planet. “But look! It’s jumping around! And it’s changing color!” By this time, everyone was getting cold (50 degrees F. is very cold for us) and went back inside. I did my duty, put on some more clothes, and went back out to watch. As the sky darkened, the object rose a bit higher. I could soon see a faint star to its left and another to its right. A few more minutes and I recognized the leading edge of Auriga rising. The UFO was clearly alpha-Aurigae, or Capella, one of the brightest stars in the sky. After a few more minutes soaking up the sight, I went inside. I began to explain our UFO, but no-one was really interested. I think a few were mildly upset that I was destroying their illusion, and ruining the story they might want to relate at a cocktail party back in Honolulu.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:03 pm
@Celtic_Evolution
Mate, please. First of all, would you answer my question. As a sceptic are you not supposed to look at ALL the evidence, rather than dismiss witness testimony? Please answer that. If you do not consider the witness testimony and their credentials then you are not doing your job properly. It is as simple as that.
I am not saying that we should accept that that UFOs are alien spacecraft from another planet and because a few people with credentials admit to either seeing them or say they’ve been working on comparmentalised projects that it is all true and it is as good as physical evidence. So i am not saying it is proof, I am saying it is evidence that should be considered on a witness by witness basis, not to do so is irresponsible research leading to innaccuarte conclusions.
Another question for you. Do you believe in god, or are you religous in any manner? I’m sure you see where i am going with this but please answer the question honestly for the sake of this debate.
Celtic_Evolution Says:
July 21st, 2008 at 8:39 pm
@ Brent Plowright…
Oh geez… just saw your website.
Seriously, Brent… I could spend all night arguing with you about the ability of even the most credible, credential-laden witnesses in dozens of criminal trials giving erroneous testimony, AND, furthermore I will state that almost never is someone convicted of a serious crime based solely on witness testimony. Physiocal evidence of some sort is almost (and note that I will qualify that statement with almost, because that fallability of our judicial system was already covered earlier in this thread, re: DNA evidence) always needed for conviction.
Next you say that the witnesses are probably wrong, then you go on to say the are all definitely wrong. Which is it? You CONTEND they are wrong, but you don’t know. Just as no physical proof exists to confirm that there are craft flying around in our skies, no one has been able to disprove the theory, whether you say it is alien or terrestrial. No one has been able to disprove the testimony by many of the more credible witnesses. Therefore an investigation needs to be done in to the phenomena.
Your Copperfield comparison is ridiculous by the way. A quick illusion compared to someone who says that they have worked on compartmentalised projects involving technology we currently don’t believe exists that have service records to back it up. C’mon mate, keep the debate logical.
As for you ignoring the rest of my post, you obviously can’t answer me or you would have done so. typical sceptic, take the material they can best use to back up a pre-determined hypothesis. Pathetic mate!!
July 21st, 2008 at 11:12 pm
Andrew, c’mon. I know the numbers of stars in our Universe, and as I wrote before, it’s far more likely there is life int he Universe besides us than there isn’t.
But I cannot be any more clear on this: that does not mean they are coming here.
And without evidence, without solid evidence, you cannot claim otherwise. You simply can’t, unless you want to declare UFOlogy a religion. Because without any sort of solid evidence, it certainly isn’t a science.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:13 pm
We are supposed to weigh the reliability of the evidence against the nature of the thing being claimed. The more extraordinary the claim, the more reliable the evidence needs to be to support it. Eyewitness testimony is extremely unreliable. I wouldn’t count on it to tell me what color a car was that just drove by, not to mention whether we are being visited by creatures from another planet. They may be right, but given the nature of the claims being supported eyewitness testimony is simply not sufficient.
Another question for you. Do you believe in god, or are you religous in any manner? I’m sure you see where i am going with this but please answer the question honestly for the sake of this debate.
No, and no. Next question.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:24 pm
As has already been stated, eyewitness testimony is notorious for being inaccurate. Two or three individuals can witness the same car accident, yet come up with very different versions of it. Undeniable proof would be, imho, a craft, or bodies.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:28 pm
@The BlackCat
Well at least you admit all the evidence is to be taken into consideration. But I understand your point and I agree with it. However, as in the Stephenville case, radar evidence has now been obtained that backs up some of the eyewitness testimony. Radar tracking plus eye witness testimony must surely lend credibility to this event. I understand that either by itself is not credible evidence but the combination is.
Good and good. Any sceptic that believes in god or organised religion has not a leg to stand on.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:35 pm
Brent, I admit, that evidence is intriguing, but at present, proves nothing, except that something flew over Stephenville. The investigators also admitted that their investigation was far from over.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:49 pm
Thanks for the link! Experiencing sleep paralysis sounds terrifying.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:54 pm
@ Phil Plait
Quote “What I dismiss are exactly what I talked about: blurry photos, crop circles, and evidenceless claims.
In fact, I write about this *extensively* in my upcoming book.”
What a pointless book that will be, we know most sightings are crap already. Do something useful like discussing SETIs implications and sightings with radar evidence to support eyewitness accounts, like what happened in Stephenville. MUFON have a 77 page report on this @ http://www.mufon.com/documents/MUFONStephenvilleRadarReport.pdf
Instead of sceptics just saying radar is not accurate, they should make that assertion with evidence relevant to this case.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:56 pm
Why is it these ufologists ,paranormal experts, hunters of yeti`s ,sasquatches and other assorted nutjobs can`t take a photograph to save themselves?
July 21st, 2008 at 11:57 pm
IBY, it is, it affects me at times, but I just can’t move and feel like I’m choking.
July 21st, 2008 at 11:59 pm
John, thanks for dismissing my book without reading it.
What I meant to say was that I talk about the possibility of life elsewhere extensively, and what it would mean if there is intelligence out there.
July 22nd, 2008 at 12:08 am
Sleep paralysis is actually fun if you’re not easily scared. I had an incident of sleep paralysis where 3 flying saucers hovered outside my window, I then waved at them and one of them flew towards me and shrunk in size and flew right thru’ the window and then just disappeared. Next thing I remember is standing at the other side of the room. It was not induced by alcohol or drugs, and I hardly think aliens are gonna waste time doing that to someone. It did seem real for about a second, until I remembered about sleep paralysis, and somehow I must have jumped out of bed after regaining body motor functions. It did have like a floating out of body experience but at the same time feeling unable to move. Maybe next time it happens I will fly into the ship like an abduction instead of the ship into me. LOL.
July 22nd, 2008 at 12:08 am
@ Michael L
I agree that it proves nothing. But it certainly provides a scenario where eye witness testimony combined with other evidence makes a good case for further investigation. That is all I have been saying, is that the evidence we have including eye witness testimony, radar evidence, physical trace evidence at some supposed witness sights such as abnormally high levels of radiation, indentations etc. warrant further investigation into a real phenomenon.
Let me just clear up my position here for all of you. I do not believe that UFOs are definitely alien space craft. I do believe that 99% of UFO sightings can be explained by natural or terrestrial phenomena, and that of those 1% left most (99%), if not all are covert / compartmentalised military projects / “air”craft. I believe there is still that tiny percentage that can not be explained by these or other conventional reasons.
I am not terribly concerned with whether or not aliens are visiting earth at present, although i do admit it is a possibility, as anything is possible. My main concern is that the military industrial complex is withholding technology from the world at large that could make significant inroads to the energy crisis we now face. Whether you believe that crisis to be global warming or simply that we are running out of oil doesn’t really matter at this stage we need to a way to produce energy that does not produce waste ie; nuclear or nucular as the beloved US president would say, as nuclear is a band-aid solution.
If there is a form of energy being withheld from the public it is unacceptable due to the current state of the world’s affairs.
July 22nd, 2008 at 12:14 am
Brent, radar tracking on its own has about the same credibility as a dodgy digital photo ie. not much. Weather, birds and drug smugglers can all show up on radar given the right conditions. All are much more plausible than supernatural explanations.
July 22nd, 2008 at 12:16 am
Hey, Phil, some of us can’t wait til the book comes out!
July 22nd, 2008 at 12:22 am
@Atrueoriginall
Science you seem to think that what happened in Phoenix is good evidence of alien visitation, why is it that so many people got good footage of the flares, but not a single person was able to get any footage of the real space ships?
July 22nd, 2008 at 12:23 am
Fortunately the military industrial complex ain’t very good at keeping secrets. If they have a super secret source of energy it has been piggy backed on good ol’ non-secret research or could be inferred from such. Haven’t heard about any new forms of exotic energy in anything but conspiracy “literature” so…
July 22nd, 2008 at 12:25 am
I remember reading around 60% of abductions scenarios are sleep paralysis, but the remaining 40% are from subjects already awake at the time. How do we explain the other 40%? Can we likely attribute them to something easily explainable by science? If so, why?
I’m not implying that some are alien abductions, just wondering if any claimed abduction can be categorized as being unexplainable.
July 22nd, 2008 at 12:29 am
Why is it these ufologists ,paranormal experts, hunters of yeti’s ,sasquatches and other assorted nutjobs can’t take a photograph to save themselves?
What about the bigfoot they got to play along Han Solo in Star Wars. I know some people will say it a guy in a suit, but it’s clear that there are no humans who could fit in that suit. And even if they could, its movements are so un-human, that no man could ever imitate them.
July 22nd, 2008 at 12:30 am
Well, until “they”, whoever “they” are, actually land, we’ll never know.
July 22nd, 2008 at 12:30 am
John, I wouldn’t mind knowing who claims the 60/40 thing? Sounds like a claim made by someone predisposed to abduction theories. I’m guessing there’d be more than a few percent that just make stuff up like Travis Walton.
July 22nd, 2008 at 12:31 am
Shane, never mind that, what about the hundreds of thousands that would be “in” on this? Do you honestly think this could be kept secret for so long? Not likely.
July 22nd, 2008 at 12:41 am
@Phil
“What I meant to say was that I talk about the possibility of life elsewhere extensively, and what it would mean if there is intelligence out there.”
That definitely sounds more interesting
July 22nd, 2008 at 12:48 am
As far as SETI goes, what if we’re just the first? It should be our mission, our duty, to go out and be available for the next batch of aliens on the way up the evolutionary ladder and let them know that they are not alone.
Or we could buzz their planets and abduct them for anal probes.
July 22nd, 2008 at 12:50 am
@ Shane
Indeed, which is why the eye witness accounts lend credibilty to the radar info and vice-versa. Also, I think you would find that those things you mentioned can not perfom in the way that the radar info indicates in the Stephensville case.
July 22nd, 2008 at 12:53 am
@ Shane
I think you would find the military and military-industrial complex are very good at keeping secrets. Anyone know what the stealth aircraft skin was made of before they released the fact they had the aircraft to the public? No? EXACTLY!!
July 22nd, 2008 at 12:54 am
@Shane, assuming they have an anus to probe!
July 22nd, 2008 at 12:54 am
“The majority of the abduction experiences they studied occurred at night, and almost 60 percent of the “intense” reports were sleep related. Of the intense experiences, nearly a quarter involved symptoms similar to sleep paralysis.”
http://www.csicop.org/si/9805/abduction.html
By the Skeptical Inquirer magazine, May/June 1998
July 22nd, 2008 at 12:58 am
@ Michael L
Do you know how super-secret military projects work? They are compartmentalised. So if you are working on one part of a project with a team of say 1000 people, you may never come in to contact with anyone that is also involved in the same project but working on a different aspect of the same project. Of those 1000 people working on that particular part of the project 2 or 3 people may only know what relevance that part has to another part and even that the other part even exists. Complicated? A little, but not really. It is the way secret projects have been kept secret for decades. This is not some wacky conspiracy, it is just the way it works.
July 22nd, 2008 at 12:59 am
I have an explanation for the Stephenville radar trace. It was a radar signal bouncing off a satellite, a Texas mockingbird and then deflected from the sceptics ass into the radar dish. Well some would say more likely than ET.
July 22nd, 2008 at 1:02 am
@Jose,
That Chewie guy may not have looked human, but he was certainly no Bigfoot.
July 22nd, 2008 at 1:10 am
Anyone know what the stealth aircraft skin was made of before they released the fact they had the aircraft to the public
Nope, I still don’t. But the plane had been seen, photographed and heard before it was ever officially released. Janes Defence Weekly is usually a good source for breaking news of new technology before the gummint does. I think there are nerds that camp outside of Groom Lake Nevada just on the off chance they may see something new.
July 22nd, 2008 at 1:12 am
I’m talking about keeping the lid on a world wide conspiracy of being visited by ET’s, not top secret human military technology. To believe the Conspiracy nuts, that we are being visited, would take a massive unprecedented cover up. Even if only 1,000 people knew, what are the chances that someone wouldn’t blow the lid off it?
July 22nd, 2008 at 1:15 am
Exactly. We still don’t. A great example of how secrets can be kept by the military-industrial complex when they need to.
July 22nd, 2008 at 1:15 am
Now, if you are proposing that these sightings involve secret “Black Projects”, I am far more likely to believe that. Although it beats me why the military is buzzing a bunch of Texas ranchers rather than deploying it where it would be most useful. I can think of 2 wars that could use such an aircraft to bring them to a quick end.
July 22nd, 2008 at 1:19 am
Sorry, above comment was for shane.
@ Michael L
By blow the lid off it, you mean fly a ufo into CNN and say ‘Hey, check out what we kept secret all these years!!’
Or do you mean willing to testify in front of congress about it and swear on the bible that what they say is true? Because there