…forced vaccination on the entire population (al a Nazi Germany) as some here have suggested…

My friend, you do understand that despite the use of the weasel phrase “as some have suggested”, you just Godwined you point. But you bring up an arguement I’ve been considering, so I will respond anyway.

You seem to be asking, “If this is a non issue, why is so much research still being conducted?” I think I can explain. There are two reasons. The first is, the original correlation studies. This whole thing got rolling when some research was done to look into the anecdotal connection between vaccination and onset autism symptoms. A (very) few showed a correlation, tough in small statistical samples. That research is out there and it isn’t going to go away, and rightly so. Since then, however, many more, much larger studies have been done, and the correlation has evaporated. This is the primary response of vaccination proponents to the anti-vaccination contingent. No consistent correlation means no causation. That might be the end of it, except…

The second reason: this is a public health concern regarding children. (Now, the second part of that, from a rational stance, shouldn’t make a difference. However, it does crank up the emotional ante of the issue.) As such, it is as much in the public interest to continue research as it is to continue vaccination programs. Researches will continue to look for any correlation between vaccination schedules and autism spectrum diseases, even as they continue to show none. Also, the concern has raised the priority on finding a cause for autism, which is certainly a good thing.

Regarding thimerosal: you yourself note that the compound has been removed from all vaccination preparations except some tetanus and influenza vaccines. You seem to imply that this means the failure to find a drop in autism rates is meaningless.
However, it should be noted that neither tetanus nor influenza is universally on the vaccination schedule. As such, some of the children in the study would have gotten zero thimerosal, so some change of the rate curves would have been evident, if thimerosal were the culprit. Since there was none… well, you do the math.

Finally, regarding herd immunity: Others above (Phil included) have pointed out recent outbreaks of vaccinated diseases, such as measles. Herd immunity is a fragile thing. Since you agree that it’s important – you imply that it is a valid reason to refuse vaccination – it seems unwise to threaten it on a problem that has a statistical probability on par with contracting the a disease from a vaccination.

Hey Sarcastro, you’re obviously one of those Unix bigots who think something Bill Joy or Dennis Ritchie dreamed up one afternoon and is still faithfully preserved bug for bug almost 40 years later is superior to an operating system that was *designed* and *tested*. I love my VAX (a 4000-300 with 128MB clustered with a small Alpha workstation) and only wish the measles vax was around in 1954 when I almost died of it at age 1.

In this meeting the Committee admits that we don’t have a method of prescreening those who might be at risk of post immunization complications, even the ones that are backed by undisputed scientific research.

The Committee also admits that we have no studies conducted on the long term (20-30 years) affects of the vaccinations currently on the market and that the practice of mass public vaccination is basically an ongoing experiment.

The Committee further admits that the government organizations involved with vaccination programs (HHS/CDC/FDA) have major image problems and that there is a definite need for improved relations with the public. They recognize that they need to improve transparency in how they conduct business and in publishing the research data.

http://www.hhs.gov/nvpo/nvac/minutes20080411.html

In addition to the two US House of Reps findings of impropriety in the pro-vax research that I posted earlier, the US Senate has more recently found:

>That the FDA inappropriately used EPA guidelines regarding dangers of mercury leading to a potential miscalculation in the toxicity of Thimerosal.
>That CDC’s meetings at Simpsonwood (June 7/8, 2000) were questionable and gave the appearance of impropriety because the list of participants was very much one sided, and because of injudicious remarks made by several of those participants.
>That the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences, who reviewed the data, inappropriately screened potential committee members for possible conflict of interest.
>That US Government data used to assess links between vaccines and autism was less than open and accessible to all researchers.

http://help.senate.gov/Min_press/autism.pdf

Please note that these are the source documents and not some second or third party ravings.

The anti-vax element is asking socially responsible questions and this process is necessary.

Here is an open question considering that many diseases can regional concentrations. If we disregarded personal liberty and forced vaccination on the entire population (al a Nazi Germany) as some here have suggested, where would you find your unvaccinated control group to prove that vaccines don’t cause problems?

Otherwise, I also went to the CDC website and crawled all over it looking for the CDC research that supports their position. Oddly enough, there isn’t any. It looks like the CDC contracts their research out to third parties (like universities and hospitals etc.). I am talking about reading the source document, not some other web page. All of the research that the CDC has made available comes to pretty much the same conclusion, and that is that there is not enough evidence for or against. More research must be done. (One might expect that from somebody who makes their living off of doing research as a government contractor.) Interestingly they did find relationships between thiomersal and individual autistic like symptoms, but at the end of the research none of them felt compelled to pull the trigger on confirmation. I did find it very odd by the way that their most resent research, published Sept 2007, isn’t available in complete form yet. Also, there are a number of studies still in all phases of the research process including the planning phase. That seems like an awful lot of ongoing research into something that isn’t supposed to have a connection to a disease. While their published position may not support a connection, their behavior doesn’t seem to support their position.

I looked up Thiomersal. It is an International Nonproprietary Name for an organomercury compound. That much is easy enough to find, but I also discovered that there are 41 other organomercury compounds around many of which are used the same way Thiomersal is used in vaccines. All studies that I could find on organomercury ingestion other than via vaccination show sever mental and neuro debilitation. If I could find a list of vaccine ingredients directly from their manufacturers, we could figure out if they just changed the name of the agent they use. Keep in mind, the US Army doesn’t use Napalm anymore because they were told to stop using Napalm. They do however still use gelatinized fuel weapons that work much better than the old brand name Napalm.

Many here have said that Thiomersal is no longer used in vaccines in the US. That isn’t true either. I have found this quote at (http://www.metrokc.gov/health/immunization/ingredients.htm)

“QUESTION: Has the thimerosal in vaccines been shown to be harmful to children?

Note: Thimerosal has been removed from all routinely recommended childhood vaccines, except some influenza (flu) vaccine, and tetanus-diphtheria (Td) vaccine used in individuals seven years and older.”

I stand by my original point. The anti-vax element is asking socially responsible questions and this process is necessary. My observations indicate that the pro-vax element isn’t acting like they are innocent and the chemical in question hasn’t been completely discontinued.

Cheers!

I know this is a late comment, but I think you’re making a mistake by judging people on their amount of formal education. I’m not saying that education doesn’t mean anything, but neither does the possession of a degree NECESSARILY indicate a person’s intelligence. You’d probably be surprised how many non-college-grads are smarter than you think.

I’m saying this as someone with a GED who plans to get a degree in art, so take that as you will. I don’t have a degree yet, but I take it upon myself to learn about things. Having a degree doesn’t prevent a person being ignorant on a particular subject. It’s just not a reliable indicator of intelligence/awareness/etc., and it irks me when people pretend it is.

I mean not even good, rational arguments in lieu of lack of evidence. Nothing. Just “oh you know-it-all astronomer what are you doing commenting out of your field?” What?! So all those parents and celebrities are also renowned chemists, biologists and whatnot? Any competent scientist, as per understanding of evidence and the scientific method, has a better chance to form a better argument against nonsense like this.

And of course, the pattern is just short of identical of GW denialists, 911 conspiracy theorists, UFOlogists, Bigfootologists, and even creationists. “Big Science” conspiring with the government! Oh noes!

Coincidently I was composing this before knutty knitter showed up.

BTW I don’t support either group because I do think there is a time and place for vaccination. I just think we use it as a sort of panacea instead of finding out what the real problems are (poor diet, poor living conditions etc).

viv

The first interviewee, one Dr. Paul Offit, comes across as knowledgeable on the entire history of the controversy.

The second, Dr. Jay Gordon, comes across as concerned, sure, but lazy as a researcher. He talks about how he’s been “watching” his patients, about “temporal relationships”, and then finishes with this gem:

I think that if we spent as much time telling people to breastfeed or to quit eating cheese and ice cream, we’d save more lives than we save with the polio vaccine.

Wait, what?

I recently encountered one such anti-vaccine website. I sent them a scathing email about how irresponsible it was to publish faulty autism information, and worse, encourage parents not to vaccinate their kids. To my surprise, the webmaster sent me a lengthy email back. Several emails later and well… there’s no getting through to these people.

It’s like a religion, or political position that becomes like a religion. I think anyone who feels so strongly about a topic to create a website or “watchdog” group isn’t going to be swayed by mere logic, no matter how much sense it makes. Further, the parents of autistic (and Asperger’s) children have a vested interest in believing it was something like a vaccine. It gives them a solid cause, hope that they can therefore find a chemical cure, a person to sue, something to fight.

Only one of the links the webmaster gave me was to an article in a peer-reviewed medical journal (from 2003). The rest were all magazines or weblogs with the sort of scientific standing of say, Cookie magazine. There is obviously not much medical debate about this, but so long as the media thinks there’s interest, and so long as they can sell magazines/viewing time by doing articles/pieces on it, they will. And the only way to counter that is with better science, and more of it.

The FDA and the CDC reject any links with thimerosal and autism. There was no decline in the rate of autism when use of thimerosal declined.

There’s a fairly reasonable sum-up here (www.apologia.com/vaccines/novac_death.html) of why not vaccinating is risky for everybody else. The article uses Pertussis or whooping cough to illustrate the issue.

Are you suggesting that something is wrong with trying to prevent cervical cancer? Where’s your evidence that the HPV vaccine damages children? According to what I read, Gov Perry’s executive order included an opt out clause. According to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_papillomavirus_vaccine nearly every state tried to implement vaccination programs had an opt out clause.

(BTW, I see a lot of references to unvaccinated children putting others at risk. Would anyone care to back up their claims with credible research that shows the incidence and vectors of these outbreaks, or is it all just appeal to emotion at this point?)

The first thing I want to put to bed is that the CDC research proved one thing or another. Both sides have claimed victory over the findings prompting the author of the study to publish a letter to the editor of the journal Pediatrics reminding everybody that the outcome of the research was actually neutral, and that his only conclusion was to recommend more research.
>Verstraeten, T., Thimerosal, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and GlaxoSmithKline, Pediatrics 2004; 113.4.932

Also, the US House of Representatives twice called into question the credibility of the research concluding that vaccines do not cause autism. The focus wasn’t so much on the science as it was the methods and the biased make up of the research teams.
>Conflicts of Interest in Vaccine Policy Making Majority Staff Report Committee on Government Reform U.S. House of Representatives August 21, 2000
>Mercury in Medicine – Taking Unnecessary Risks A Report Prepared by the Staff of the Subcommittee on Human Rights and Wellness Committee on Government Reform United States House of Representatives May 2003

Otherwise, the reputable, peer reviewed research I was charged with producing looks something like this. This list is by no means exhaustive and in no particular order. Though not technically perfect references, the essential information is present in sufficient quantities for anyone to find and read the research. Enjoy.

>Jeff Bradstreet, M.D., David Geier, B.A., Jerold J. Kartzinel, M.D., James B.Adams, Ph.D., Mark Geier, M.D., Ph.D., A Case-Control Study of Mercury Burden in Children with Autistic Spectrum Disorders Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons Volume 8 Number 3 Summer 2003

>Robert Nataf, Corinne Skorupka, Lorene Amet, Alain Lam, Anthea Springbett, Richard Lathe, Porphyrinuria in childhood autistic disorder: Implications for environmental toxicity, Toxicology and Applied Pharmacology 214 (2006) 99–108

>Mark F. Blaxill, MBAa What’s Going On? The Question of Time Trends in Autism Public Health Reports / November–December 2004 / Volume 119

>Blaxill, Baskin, and Spitzer on Croen et al.(2002), The Changing Prevalence of Autism in California Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders, Vol. 33, No. 2, April 2003

>Craig J. Newschaffer, Matthew D. Falb and James G. Gurney, National Autism Prevalence Trends From United States Special Education Data, Pediatrics 2005;115;277-282

>S.J. James, William Slikker III, Stepan Melnyk, Elizabeth New, Marta Pogribna, Stefanie Jernigan Thimerosal Neurotoxicity is Associated with Glutathione Depletion: Protection with Glutathione Precursors, NeuroToxicology 26 (2005) 1–8

>Samuel R. Goth, Ruth A. Chu, Jeffrey P. Gregg, Gennady Cherednichenko, and Isaac N. Pessah Uncoupling of ATP-mediated Calcium Signaling and Dysregulated IL-6 Secretion in Dendritic Cells by Nanomolar Thimerosal, Environmental Health Perspectives 10.1289/ehp.8881 The National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences, National Institutes of Health, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services

>M Waly, H Olteanu, R Banerjee, S-W Choi, JB Mason, BS Parker, S Sukumar, S Shim,
A Sharma, JM Benzecry, V-A Power-Charnitsky and RC Deth, Activation of methionine synthase by insulin-like growth factor-1 and dopamine: a target for neurodevelopmental toxins and thimerosal Molecular Psychiatry (2004), 1–13

>M Hornig, D Chian and WI Lipkin, Neurotoxic effects of postnatal thimerosal are mouse
strain dependent Molecular Psychiatry (2004), 1–13

>David S. Baskin, Hop Ngo, and Vladimir V. Didenko, Thimerosal Induces DNA Breaks, Caspase-3 Activation, Membrane Damage, and Cell Death in Cultured Human Neurons and Fibroblasts. Toxicological Sciences 74, 000-000 (2003)

>Said Havarinasab, Per Hultman* Organic mercury compounds and autoimmunityB Autoimmunity Reviews 4 (2005) 270– 275

>Mutter J, Naumann J, Schneider R, Walach H, Haley B. Mercury and autism: Accelerating Evidence? Neuro Endocrinol Lett. 2005 Oct 30;26(5)

>No author listed, Retrograde Degeneration of neurite membrane structural integrity of nerve growth cones following in vitro exposure to mercury NeuroReport v.12, n.4, 26mar01

>Bernard, S Enayati, A. Redwood, L. Roger, H. Binstock T., Autism: a novel form of mercury poisoning, Medical Hypotheses (2001) 56(4), 462–471

My point is no one knows what causes Autism and attacking someone for taking precautionary measures in the hopes of not contributing to the onset is just plain wrong.

That we do not know what does cause it is irrelevant to question of whether we do know what doesn’t case it. We know vaccines do not cause autism in any significant amount. We have looked at the question and the answer cannot get much more definitive than it already is. Criticizing someone for putting other peoples’ lives at risk, and other peoples’ children at risk, by acting on a doubt about something for which there is no longer any reasonable room for doubt is not wrong.

I find it ironic that Peet can call parents parasites for exercising their parental right to do whatever they can to protect their child yet only consumes organic foods and doesn’t use sunscreen because of some of the additives it contains. That wreaks of hypocrisy.

Not using sunscreen does not put other people at risk. Eating organic food does not put other people at risk. Not using vaccines does most definitely put other people at risk. There is no hypocrisy.

Umm…what preservatives in vaccines? Thimerosal? Not in any of the single-use vaccines in the U.S. for quite a number of years now. It was taken out as a precaution in response to public outcries about it causing autism, yet people are still saying it’s the culprit, despite mounting evidence against that claim.

I’m not against vaccinations, both of my kids are current with theirs. I do take issue with the preservatives that are added to the vaccines specifically if those preservatives are toxic. That is the crux of the vaccinations argument. Most people don’t see that, they just assume that any parent that is concerned about the side effects of vaccinations are wackos, idiots or parasites.

I find it ironic that Peet can call parents parasites for exercising their parental right to do whatever they can to protect their child yet only consumes organic foods and doesn’t use sunscreen because of some of the additives it contains. That wreaks of hypocrisy.

Can someone here tell me what causes Autism?
Until you can tell me that, don’t tell me what doesn’t.

This argument makes no sense. So by this argument standing on your head is a plausible explanation for autism? Or sleeping with your toes pointing at a certain angle relative to magnetic north? Maybe we should outlaw the use of concrete in buildings since it might cause autism. You can rule out causes of something by checking to see whether changing the level of that thing changes the level of autism. That has been done, and it has been shown that it is does not have an impact. For the case of something that happens at a certain point in someone life, if the effect starts before the supposed cause then that must not be the cause. There is quite a bit of evidence that autism starts well before the first childhood vaccines, it is just that the symptoms become more noticeable shortly after.

After all stained peas (unlike fresh peas) are foul tasting agents of corporate evil. The big stained pea lobby has been putting out reports for years claiming stained peas are actually good for children, but we all know they are just lying to line their pockets. The media never does a balanced report about stained peas. They don’t allow people like me equal time with those pro-stained pea scientists so we can show there is a controversy and let people know that almost all autistic children have been fed stained peas at one time or another. Unless you’ve had a child that has been harmed by stained peas there is no way you could understand and therefore you have no right to have any opinion about stained peas unless it agrees with mine.

Eh? Different VAX? Cwap. Never mind.

On the MMR-autism link, that whole thing really got going with Dr. Andrew Wakefield. Reporter Brian Deer (http://briandeer.com/mmr/lancet-summary.htm) has an excellent report following that whole thing. In short, Wakefield’s research was bogus, unethical, and has not stood up to scrutiny, casting doubt on any claimed links between MMR and autism.

On the thimerosal-autism link, again, numerous studies (see the CDC, NIH and FDA web sites for the reports) have shown no link between the two. Furthermore, autism cases have continued to rise despite the removal of thimerosal from vaccines.

As someone else mentioned already, the rise in autism cases, while possibly linked to environmental factors, can also be partially explained by better diagnostic criteria and tools (e.g., observational protocols), greater awareness of the condition, as well as possible misdiagnosis.

On the vaccine schedule…contrary to popular belief, the vaccination schedule is not mandatory. If a parent wishes to alter the schedule, then that is their prerogative. They should get informed about the schedules, the vaccines, their side-effects, contraindications, etc. They should also carefully discuss any concerns with their doctor. If something the doctor says does not jive with the vaccine literature, talk to a different doctor.

On the contagious diseases (e.g., measles, mumps, etc.) being more of an issue in third world countries, yes, hygeine does play a part, but keep in mind, too, that these countries also have less access to vaccines and much lower vaccination rates, thereby having less overall protection of the population.

Finally, while I agree that everyone should have a choice on whether to get vaccinated or not, I also agree with the stance that not vaccinating does pose a potential threat to the populace. Keep in mind, it’s not a threat to the people who get vaccinated. Also, my opinion is not fueled so much by concern for those who choose, for personal reasons, not to get vaccinated, but by concern for those who, due to other medical issues, cannot receive certain vaccines. Those are the people who are at greatest risk when someone chooses not to vaccinate their children. If someone gets sick because a parent chose not to vaccinate their kid, then that parent bears responsibility and blame for the other person’s illness, to some degree.

Sorry for the length. Lots of points to address. I strongly recommend that people visit the FDA/CDC/NIH web sites and read up on their info. Also, the Brian Deer commentary is a good read, and Orac (mentioned in Phil’s post) is another good stop. To those who cry out that pro-vax people must be in the pocket of pharma companies, believe it or not, but it is possible to be independent of “Big Pharma” influences and still come to conclusions that vaccines are generally a pretty good thing.