The world is filled with dumbosity, and it’s all we can do to fight it. But sometimes an idea is so ridiculous that you have to wonder if it’s a joke.
Yeah, I mean the Flat Earthers. Can people in the 21st century really think the Earth is a flat disk, and not a sphere? When I see their claims I have to wonder if it’s an elaborate hoax, their attempt to poke a hornet’s nest just to see how reality-based people react. The media will sometimes talk to these goofballs, and I’m glad to report it’s almost always tongue-in-cheek, which is probably more than they deserve.
The BBC News site recently covered this topic, and, well, you just have to read it. I pretty much lost it around this quotation:
“People are definitely prejudiced against flat-earthers,” says John Davis, a flat earth theorist based in Tennessee… “Many use the term ‘flat-earther’ as a term of abuse, and with connotations that imply blind faith, ignorance or even anti-intellectualism.”
Well, duh. Why do you think that is, Mr. Davis? It’s because you need blind faith, ignorance, and anti-intellectualism to think the Earth is flat.
I was thinking of writing up a definitive post debunking this silliness, but decided I have better things to do, like clipping my toenails. It’s like trying to disprove solipsism; why bother? I don’t see this as being a particularly infectious bit of antiscience (like, say, the Moon Hoax or the antivax movement), and it’s pretty limited in its scope. Maybe someday if I’m particularly bored — like say locked in a room with just water, bagels, and an internet-connected computer — I’ll write something up. It would be a fun mental exercise, but not terribly useful against the Flat Earthers. If someone showed them my page, they’d probably just deny the existence of the internet.
August 11th, 2008 at 1:06 pm
Right on the head, Phil!
Flat Earth “theory” is merely the most extreme example of what’s wrong with antiscientific nonsense. Creationism isn’t too far behind, but flat earth is such a clear example of what this kind of thinking (and I use the term lightly) can lead to. It’s not beneath you to speak up about this kind of thing; it’s your job, and you’re doing it well.
And your rejoinder to Mr. Davis was spot-on.
August 11th, 2008 at 1:16 pm
http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm
Looks like that is one of their homepages. The idea of a flat Earth is so mind numbingly dumb that I thought the whole thing must be a joke. Judging by their site- it doesn’t look like it is.
But their “Join the Flat Earth Society” page definitely does look like the whole thing is tongue in cheek. But if it is a joke, it’s a pretty freaking lame one.
I say ignore them Phil. If you get locked in the closet with the computer and bagel please start work on your third book!
August 11th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
What happened to the old fashioned “bread and water”? Perhaps the new JREF president (congratulations, Phil!) is now above simply eating “bread” and must resort to bagels.
August 11th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Just remember, “spherical Earth” is just a theory!
August 11th, 2008 at 1:29 pm
BadMA:
But a bagel without “a shmear” is more torture than bread without butter.
August 11th, 2008 at 1:30 pm
Teach the controversy!
August 11th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
I strongly suspect these folks are having you (and the BBC) on. Of course there are enough schizophrenic folks in the world that you could probably find several who believe in a flat earth, but that’s not antiscientific, it’s pathology. Someone articulate expousing a flat earth should register very high on the irony meter.
August 11th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
Wow, what a brain squeeze.
These guys can’t even get their stories straight. In one sentence Mr Davis says: “the Earth is flat and horizontally infinite – it stretches horizontally forever” and in the next James McIntyre says: “The Earth is, more or less, a disc, it is around 24,900 miles in diameter.”
So which is it? Infinite or 24,900 miles? If the former, how do we see past it from space? (oh, that’s right, all space photos are faked). If the latter, why doesn’t it take 78,000 miles to travel around the south pole when explorers show that you can simply stomp around it in a few seconds?
Davis also says: “it is at least 9,000 kilometres deep”. OK, so what’s on the other side and why can’t we reach it?
Do these people ever look into telescopes at the other planets? You can watch Jupiter spin before your eyes, so if the other planets are spheres, why isn’t Earth? Has every telescope maker since Leeuwenhoek embedded false images into their design to misguide anyone who looks through them? How do you explain circumpolar stars? How does the atmosphere stick to the planet at the edges? What’s a lunar eclipse?
Aaargh! I’m getting myself all upset. I’ve got to get back to the Saucer book…
- Jack
August 11th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
Oops, I meant “Lippershey” not “Leeuwenhoek” in that post (Leeuwenhoek invented the compound microscope).
- Jack
August 11th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
now Phil, is there a handy experiment to show the earth we stand on is actually spherical?
I remember being a kid of quite a young age, when I started wondering why the oceans
don’t flow over the edge of earth.
Asking my parents, they told me that earth is a ball and has no edge.
Basically I just accepted my parents authority on earths shape. But it left me wondering. Especially since I quickly found out that I wasn’t magnetic, which ruled out a known force, in my little universe, sticking us to the ball.
Somehow I wonder wether flat earthers and other antscientists just stopped early in their intellectual development. Sad, very sad.
August 11th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
This is ridiculous! Everyone knows the earth is round! And hollow. How else could the “little people” live in there if it wasn’t round?
August 11th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Mr Davis, a 25-year-old computer scientist originally from Canada,…
So, for once, this isn’t Tennessee’s fault! As if we don’t have enough home-grown loons, we’ve got to import more from Soviet Kanukistan.
I am somewhat disappointed the article failed to mention the “turtles all the way down” theory.
August 11th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
It’s trolling on a larger scale. I think these so-called flat Earthers are having a laugh at the expense of skeptics that are so keen to attack ignorance that they suspend their critical thinking and fail to realize that their opponent isn’t serious.
August 11th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
I always thought that the Earth was a convex lens shape. That’s why the horizon is curved slightly…and also explains why Mars is a bit scorched…
August 11th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
Hypothesis: Earth is Flat
Experiment: Get in boat. Sail west. Take picture of edge.
Conclusion: Nobel Prize in Geography
August 11th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Two things – first, you have written on this subject before – but it has been years. I recall writing that the group – in general – really doesn’t go about thinking the Earth is literally flat (though the persons quoted in the article appear to – perhaps as an aberration?) – but that “one should in general question what is put forth as truth” – something I find a bit of resonance with.
Second, the article really is rather good – ending with this quote:
“It is always good to question ‘how we know what we know’, but it is also good to have the ability to accept compelling evidence – such as the photographs of Earth from space.”
As I read it – the article basically paints these people as common loons.
JC
August 11th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
this is from the/a flat earther website (http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm)
—
“In the small town of Grass Roots, MO, one of our members has successfully infiltrated the public education system. By being hired on as a teacher in the district, she was able to gain a foothold that has allowed us to ‘replace’ nearly every lower grade teacher in the entire town with loyal Flat Earthers. The students are now undergoing deprogramming measures and are expected to be released when they reach their mid-thirties.”
—
Hmm…”Invasion of the Body snatchers” anyone?
if they really want to prove their theory, all they gotta do is fly a plane from mcmurdo station to the 45 m ice wall and take some pictures. i bet the photos would make the cover of time magazine.
August 11th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
“And that, my liege, is how we know the earth to be banana-shaped.”
August 11th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
wait a minute, the site i mentioned above doesn’t seem to legitimate. further inspection reveals this. (satire? hmm…)
“After spending over sixteen million dollars and using over 48 thousand yards of industrial strength strapping tape, we of the Flat Earth Society were able to construct an enormously powerful neurotransmitter that can implant suggestions directly into the brains of the nearby non-Flat Earthers. Having set it up just outside of the Russian Antarctic exploration post (Vostok), we are awaiting word that all three scientists and 174 penguins have been shown the light.”
apparently they *have* gone to antarctica already!
a little further down they write:
“Your dog has joined us.”
when i get home i am going to ask my dog if this is true. if it is, he is not going to get a walk tonight.
August 11th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
Now I may be wrong but years ago I seem to recall seeing a photo in the Journal of Irreproducible Results of a “flat earth meeting” in Europe. Several people in hardhats were gathered around a giant screw in the ground (preventing plate movement). I think they were all scientists.
If this is the same flat Earth group then they are definitely having folks on.
August 11th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
Philip,
This:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Yule_Oldham
was generally cited as experimental proof of the curvature of the
earth until satellite photos became available.
William Hyde
August 11th, 2008 at 3:02 pm
PEOPLE STILL BELIEVE IN THIS!? O_O
August 11th, 2008 at 3:11 pm
I thought the interesting bit of the article was the fact that flat earth theory isn’t some holdover from the dark ages, but that it was invented in Victorian times by anti-science people with a religious agenda. Plus ca change…
August 11th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
Phil, never underestimate the idiocy of woos and conspiracy theories. I did while reading Respectful Insolence, and I lost a few IQ points.
August 11th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
I think they’ve achieved just about everything they wanted from this:
People actually believe they’re being serious!
The guy (John Davis) says he got his inspiration from reading literature from Flat Earth Society: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/
Skim through their FAQ section and it’ll be obvious to anyone that this is just a hoax. It’s pretty damn funny too!
It seems that persistence is all it takes to blur the line between parody and the real thing.
August 11th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
BoC, tell me again how sheep’s bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes?
The Flat-Earthers take biblical infallibility so much farther than other fundamentalists they are an embarrasment to the Creationists.
The Flat-Earthers fill a much needed niche: as objects of scorn and ridicule for all fundies.
August 11th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
And it’s full of holes, too! After all, tests have shown that the Earth is slightly thinner at the poles than it is at the equator. Therefore, the “round Earth” theory is no more valid than the “flat Earth” theory and both must be given equal time in public schools!
August 11th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
In order for their… hypothesis to work, it would need to be day everywhere on Earth at the same time.
August 11th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
But, with water and bagels, you could have bagel-boat races!
August 11th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Nah. I’ll bet anything you’d rather just look at pr0n.
(Wow, in this font zeroes look remarkably cheerio-ish)
August 11th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
I, too, agree that we shouldn’t take at face value things we are told…but where is the evidence for a flat Earth?
August 11th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
It’s a definite hoax. But one where the rule is not to let on ever that it’s a hoax.
It’s like the game Mornington Crescent.
-Scott.
August 11th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
I get flashes of Deja Vu of the hate mail over at venganza.org when reading this article and some of the comments.
August 11th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
“The Flat-Earthers take biblical infallibility so much farther than other fundamentalists they are an embarrasment to the Creationists.”
It’s for this reason that in a way, I actually have greater respect for the Flat-Earthers than the Creationists. Both are lunatic positions based on the rejection of evidence in favor of blind faith in strict Biblical literalism, so I have greater respect for the ones that go all the way with it. I say, if you choose to go that route in your life, don’t go halfway. Don’t pick and choose the bits of the Bible that you think are so blatantly, provably false they can’t be interpreted literally, and then claim your rejection of other science is based on Biblical literalism: If the Bible says the sun moves around the Earth, then it moves around the Earth, regardless of what the evidence says. *That’s* unwavering faith.
August 11th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
The book by Garwood seems quite interesting. Perhaps rather than debunking the flat Earth theory (which I agree is a waste of time), you could read her book and write a review for us? More fun for everybody involved, I suspect.
August 11th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Salvius, that’s not flat Earth, that’s geocentrism.
August 11th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
Pieter Kok,
Salvius was using that as another example of biblical literalism.
August 11th, 2008 at 5:29 pm
Geocentrists exist so do people who think the Earth is growing and there are no such things as plate tectonics and all other kinds of way out there theories.
August 11th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
In the beginning…
I’m sorry, I’ll read that again.
When they started, I think the modern flat earthers were brilliantly satirical, and were definitely pulling our collective leg.
The satire was so subtle and so well done, though, that I think they struck a chord with the lunatic anti-science conspiracy-minded crowd, and that a number of the current flat earthers are completely serious about their beliefs. The very nature of the belief, though, makes it difficult to tell who, if anyone, really means it.
August 11th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
I wanna know more about that sheep bladder thing. San Andreas Fault is right off the coast over there.
As for my dog, we haven’t really discussed it but I get the impression that he sees the earth as an essentially plane surface, thoroughly marked, with my backyard as its center. But then, my dog’s an idiot.
(Sorry Hootie. I still love you.)
(He reads this blog.)
August 11th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
Years ago, thinking that the concept of being a card-carrying member of the Flat Earth Society was too good to pass up, I tried to join, but each Society I came across was a fake one created for laughs.
I kept looking and finding fakes until finally I had a realization – I was in the movie scene from Apocalypse Now where Martin Sheen is looking for the officer in charge and not finding him, until he comprehends that there is no officer in charge.
There is no real, Flat Earth Society – push your way through all the satire, and nothing’s left.
Fascinating.
August 11th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
Mr. President, I think that doing a debunking of this would be a nice practice for the 2012 stuff that’s right around the corner.
August 11th, 2008 at 6:06 pm
My brother (a big BA fan) used to frequent a flat-earth website.
This website was replete with:
– Very intelligent people touting flat-earthism as truth;
– Very intelligent people touting flat-earthism as lies; and
– Complete dumbass, unintelligible, conspiracy nutjobs from BOTH sides of the fence that the rest of them tried to ignore the spirit of good intellectual debate (as it is on any internet forum).
What I found most interesting is the level of science that the website went into: the fundamentals of HOW a flat Earth were well-documented and the admins and members have gone a VERY long way to explain just how a flat Earth would be physically possible. I was very impressed as to just how much astronometric data they’d got accurrate and how it all bound together into one coherent theory.
There were a few glaring holes that were simply excused away, of course, but the whole package was very in-depth and cogent.
What made me smile most of all was that the admins and upper-echelon users seemed more to be simply having fun debating, and the whole thing seemed a game, an intellectual exercise.
That’s the term I was looking for: Intellectual Exercise – that’s what the theory seemed to be.
And there’s NOTHING wrong that at all – it keeps the mind sharp and can lead to inspiration for real-world theories.
It’s just a shame the site attracted so many illiterate idiots who think they can afford to be choosy on laws like gravity.
August 11th, 2008 at 6:23 pm
Some part of me still doubts solipsism?
August 11th, 2008 at 6:24 pm
Check out the FAQ at http://www.flatearthsociety.org. They get some science ridiculously wrong, like the relationship between the Earth and the heavens:
Q: “What about the stars, sun and moon and other planets? Are they flat too? What are they made of?”
A: The sun and moon, each 32 miles in diameter, circle Earth at a height of 3000 miles at its equator, located midway between the North Pole and the ice wall. Each functions similar to a “spotlight,” with the sun radiating “hot light,” the moon “cold light.” As they are spotlights, they only give light out over a certain are which explains why some parts of the Earth are dark when others are light. Their apparent rising and setting are caused by optical illusions.
But they nailed the Coriolis Effect!
Q: How come when I flush my toilet in the northern hemisphere it goes counterclockwise but I have this friend in Australia and when he flushes it goes clockwise?
You’re mistaken. On a round Earth, the Coriolis effect adds at most one (counter)clockwise rotation per day; fewer as you get closer to the equator. The water in your toilet/sink/bathtub/funnel spins much faster than that (probably at least once per minute, or 1440 times per day) so the additional/lost rotation from the Coriolis effect wouldn’t be noticed.
I vote that this is just a funny hoax.
August 11th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
space cadet,
please refer to Monty Python and the Holy Grail, Act II, scene 1.
Charlie,
it ain’t a hoax. They have a long history, including a long drawn out court battle in the 19th century when a flat earther offered a reward to anyone who could prove to him the earth was not flat and someone did prove it but the flat earther refused to pay.
August 11th, 2008 at 6:34 pm
Here’s a few good links:
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/schadew.htm
August 11th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
Though I’m sure some of these flat-earthers are crazy misguided loons, the majority are not!
They actually believe the Earth is round like the rest of us and are simply pretending to believe in a “flat” earth. The reason for this is primarily that they want people not to necessarily accept facts given from authority at face value even when they’re right! Though the vast majority of people believe the Earth is round, almost all would be stumped if asked to explain how they KNOW the Earth is round besides “I read it in a book” or “everybody knows it” or “somebody told me” or “I saw some photos from space”.
The idea is to get people to think critically by making them think more about why they believe things to be true instead of always accepting facts from authority without question, a problem that’s quite serious in our modern society and indeed in all past human societies as well. For example, WMDs in Iraq? There were satellite photos provided as evidence for THAT TOO.
If you’re still not convinced they’re not serious about their beliefs, check out the arguments in their forums. You’ll notice they don’t resort to profanity and insults and ad hominem attacks when their beliefs are thoroughly questioned, behavior strikingly unlike that of all the other types of conspiracy theory nuts.
August 11th, 2008 at 7:01 pm
I’m pretty sure most, if not all, Flat-Earthers are in it for the lulz…
August 11th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
Why not have these “flat-earth” folks talk (and i mean talk) to a Marine Corps sniper. Let him explain the them that when he is calculating the trajectory of the bullet, he has to account for wind, barometric pressure and CURVATURE of the earth, along with other factors. If the earth was flat, it seems to me this would be one less calculation to add to the mix.
August 11th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
Flat earthers, I’ve always assumed, are just old-fashioned crazy, or they’re taking the piss out of whomever they’re talking to.
It’s the hollow earthers that really irritate me. They have all the elements of a great bit of anti-science… they explain the round earth, the coverups, and even UFOs depending on the flavour of nutter that you meet. And more to the point, they’re absolutely serious.
August 11th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
All this talk of bagels makes me think. Maybe the earth is bagel shaped. This would mean that the Arctic and Antarctic bits are actually one and the same. Think about it!
Mmmm, lox spread.
August 11th, 2008 at 8:49 pm
I’m an oblate spheroidist.
August 11th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
… Like, flying over the South Pole and…
Next thing you know…
… ?!? We are in SPACE?!?
For me, the best part from the BBC article, is this:
”
…
“If you will forgive my use of the term ‘global’”, he says.
…
”
I can only imagine in at the pub with the mates:
“…AHAH! And I even got this BBC interview!! HiHiHi! …”
August 11th, 2008 at 9:20 pm
But……but……..but……….. the world is flat. Don’t you people read Terry Pratchett?
@ Sir Eccles: If it’s true that the earth is bagel-shaped, we all know what global warming will do to the cream cheese……..
August 11th, 2008 at 10:27 pm
I know the Earth is locally round, at least, by watching ships ‘rise up over’ the horizon as I stare out to sea. That and the way the horizon is noticeably curved.
How those poor landlocked people can know the Earth is round is another matter.
August 11th, 2008 at 10:35 pm
Great timing on this post, Phil. There’s a terrific new book out titled Flat Earth – The History of an Infamous Idea by Christine Garwood (Thomas Dunne/St. Martin’s Press).
It’s a great read, filled with an assortment of characters that make you realize today’s nutters are just the latest in a long line of charlatans and morons.
And as someone who refuses to let the loons off the hook (hence the ridiculous longevity of the UFO threads), it was heartening to read that previous generations of rational skeptics have had to put up with same idiotic arguments, repeated ad nauseum, as today’s clear thinkers.
August 11th, 2008 at 10:41 pm
Oops. Posted too quickly. Book already got a plug. Hadn’t yet reached that far in the BBC story. Back to the flying saucers for me….
August 11th, 2008 at 11:12 pm
From my fallible memory, a leading Sceptic in Newcastle Australia is or was a member of the Flat Earth Society. I haven’t heard anything much in the last decade or two and the Flat Earth Society on the interweb could be different to the one I knew of 20 years ago.
I think they are mostly Sceptics who use satire to point out the fallibilty of anyone who just accepts dogma as fact.
Phil, Don’t get too heated up over the Flat Earther’s. I don’t think they are dangerous like young earther’s and IDers !
The simplest primary (Grade?) school physics knowledge shows that the Earth isn’t flat (or the universe must be plain crazy), and these guys must have their tongues in their cheeks every time they write something.
August 11th, 2008 at 11:15 pm
This is obviously and fake. Just by reading the website you can see that its not real…..
“Three loyal Flat Earth Society members, during a camping trip to the small African nation of Tunisia, came across a privately-owned 59 minute photo stand in the isolated northernmost corner of the desert country. Employing guerilla warfare techniques learned under Mao Zedong in the early 1920’s, they were able to effortlessly seize control of the stand and are now using it to distribute pro-Flat Earth propaganda throughout the West African region.”
August 11th, 2008 at 11:18 pm
Actually, the jury’s still out on that “Leeuwenhoek invented the microscope” thing.
August 11th, 2008 at 11:24 pm
Hoax. These people have gone so far over the whack job side that they’ve come right back around and hit themselves in the back. Which naturally, they deny is possible.
August 11th, 2008 at 11:26 pm
Isn’t it pretty well established that the flat earth society is a goof? I remember reading that *30* years ago when I was a teen. Omni Magazine, I think. Picking on them is like kicking a puppy.
August 12th, 2008 at 1:15 am
“It’s like trying to disprove solipsism; why bother?”
Even solipsism has more going for it than flat earthers. Solipsism is impossible to disprove. Just fly around the world and you’ll disprove flat earthers. Well Ok, it does take some money…
August 12th, 2008 at 2:04 am
I am convinced that the Earth is flat.
I will now proceed to masturbate upon this revelation.
August 12th, 2008 at 2:11 am
I saw the original post in the BBC and I think I even commented on it. Either there, or on Dawkins’s website, not sure where. Many (though not all) of the “flat-Earthers” apparently go to these societies not because they believe the Earth is flat (BUT IT IS!!! ;p), but rather to hone their debating skills against arguments which are overwhelming. I am still not sure whether I am in favour of this or not, though.
As for my reply to the original post, it went something like this:
The Earth actually is flat and infinite in diameter, just like Mr. Davis says. In fact, if you think as one of the poles as the center of the disc, the size of the disc is so huge that it actually curls in on itself and the diameter meets itself on the other pole. In fact, you could rightly think of the whole thing as a globe. Who’d have thought reading “Brief History of Time” so many years ago as a teenager and trying to understand Hawking’s theory of time would come in useful against flat-Earthers one day
August 12th, 2008 at 2:34 am
These guys have exceptional strength in the muscles controlling both tongue and cheek. It’s wonderful seeing people raging and ranting on one of the forums, and the “flatearthers” will calmly rebut every attempt at debunking them. After enough beer it makes sense too. One hilarious thread I read concerned the spread of dinosaur bones worldwide.
“Hah! Got you! How can you explain THAT without pangaea?” *does victory dance*
“Dinos made boats. Made of wood. Hence no fossils of them”
… *gasp* … “WHAT!?!?! Impossible!!!”
“Why?”
“No TOOLS!!!!”
“Says who?”
“Small brains!!!!”
“Size doesn’t matter, they could work together.”
August 12th, 2008 at 2:36 am
Ummm… It’s a joke, guy. Making fun of conspiracy nutters. I can’t say a lot about the founders, but the members are laughing at you for trying to argue. At least, that’s how it was ten years ago when I joined.
August 12th, 2008 at 3:33 am
That isolated tribe discovered somewhere in South America recently may believe the world is flat, although I’m told one report of that event included a Google Earth reference and directions to find them. I think the flat-earthers nearer at hand may be seen as useful unambiguous examples that someone who apparently sincerely believes they’re right about something can be not even a little bit right, and that is important when it comes to arguments on compromise or “teach the controversy” lines.
Incidentally, I am in a “logically impossible for the Big Bang to come out of nothing before it” argument at forum thread http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio4/F2766778?thread=5752906 – also BBC – membership free.
August 12th, 2008 at 3:50 am
Uhm, to anyone slightly versed in internet memes, it’s obvious this guy is pulling a prank.
References to “Over 9000″, and “Profit” and he admits he’s a computer geek? This has to be someone from 4chan’s /b/ boards, or someone else trolling the BBC.
For your reading pleasure:
http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Profit
http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Over_9000
those two links are SFW at the time of posting, but no guarantees for the rest of the website.
August 12th, 2008 at 4:04 am
It’s the ultimate in Morton’s demon.
And for pretty much the same reason it appears, if the interesting BBC article is correct. Apparently Garwood claims in her book that organized flat earthers is a Victorian religious invention to throw science of tracks.
Is it a coincidence that both the leading creationist (and HIV-denier) and the leading flat earther are named “Johnson”?
I think not. If you are interested in joining the newly started “Suck on my Johnson, says the church” Conspiracy Society, contact me.
August 12th, 2008 at 5:03 am
Even if the “Flat Earthers” are simply taking the piss, then a rational response is still warranted. If they see it as a “joke”, as has been suggested, then they’re certainly immoral idiots who lie for entertainment value. They ought to be treated as though they are stupid enough to actually believe such garbage until they are exposed as liars who are simply seeking attention.
Lying is wrong, boys and girls, even when you think it’s “funny”. (Though how anyone can find lies funny, I’ll never understand.) Oh, sure, you can try to rationalize it by saying that your silly lie hurts no one, but the funny thing about lies/liars is this: If you’re willing to tell one whopper, chances are you’re willing to tell a thousand others. This doesn’t make you a “fun-loving” person, it means you’re someone who can’t be trusted, a person who will deny/obfuscate reality for their own ends.
August 12th, 2008 at 5:05 am
53 comments and no Discworld references. I’m disappointed, people.
August 12th, 2008 at 5:18 am
Anyway, it’s curious to see that Creationists despise Flat Earthers when it’s obvious that the Bible supports a Flat Earth.
So, we have theistic evolutionists despise intelligent-designers; intelligent-designers despise Old Earth creationists; OECs despise Young Earth creationists; and YECs despise Flat Earthers. Well, the list does not end here, because North Pole-centered Flat Earthers are at odds with Jerusalem-centered O/T Flat Eathers.
As Phil Blait, disproving solipsism is useless. However, disproving Creation or Flat Earth can be done through the Occam’s Razor. Even, solipsism can be disprove, because a Mind needs some external support (like a brain in a vat) and it’s easy to suppose that the perceived external medium is a reflection of the real external medium…
August 12th, 2008 at 5:57 am
Mark H., where in the world did you get the “fact” that snipers take the curvature of the world into account (about eight inches per mile, as I remember, so not really a number of any consequence)? I was my state’s rifle champion and shot on the Army’s rifle team, so I’ll feel confident in saying that you spoke to some Jarhead who believes in that myth and you bought into it without a proper degree of skepticism.
As for the earth being round, didn’t that fellow in (fill in the name of the movie here) throw a coke bottle off the edge? Or was that a myth? It would be an interesting way to get rid of our trash.
August 12th, 2008 at 6:25 am
Frank Zappa
August 12th, 2008 at 6:52 am
You say that and you’re on a boat?! Phil, you’re braver than I thought! For sure, for sure, you’re gonna sail off the edge according to them. Watch out!
August 12th, 2008 at 7:48 am
I don’t know about snipers (although there are apparently rifles that will shoot to 2km, at which range a 20-25cm error could be significant) but the mechanical computers for battleships in WWII made some allowance for the rotation of the Earth at extreme ranges, Flat Earth theory would seem to predict a variation of accuracy depending on latitude that wasn’t observed in practice…
August 12th, 2008 at 7:55 am
I think this is a conspiracy hatched by Terry Pratchett.
And I’m not sure if the internet really exists or not, Phil. I’m starting to side with Descartes on this one… and Plato may be right as well… you could all be just shadows on the monitor-cave wall…
August 12th, 2008 at 8:27 am
If you want some more dumbosity, be sure to check out the interview of stem cell research Robert Lanza in the September 2008 issue of Discover magazine.
August 12th, 2008 at 8:29 am
I love my geocentrism “Teach the Controversy” t-shirt!
August 12th, 2008 at 9:04 am
They ought to be treated as though they are stupid enough to actually believe such garbage until they are exposed as liars who are simply seeking attention.
That is an utterly pathological attitude.
Lying is wrong, boys and girls, even when you think it’s “funny”.
Gosh, thanks, mom.
(Though how anyone can find lies funny, I’ll never understand.)
You just wrote off parody, satire, humorous fiction and most jokes in the world, which are all little lies in various forms.
Oh, sure, you can try to rationalize it by saying that your silly lie hurts no one, but the funny thing about lies/liars is this: If you’re willing to tell one whopper, chances are you’re willing to tell a thousand others.
Yes! And this is true of every person in the world because people are not individuals who can perceive the difference between jokes and harmful lies! Oops! That was sarcasm- another type of lie that we’re no longer allowed to laugh at in your presence.
This doesn’t make you a “fun-loving” person, it means you’re someone who can’t be trusted, a person who will deny/obfuscate reality for their own ends.
You must be great fun at parites. Get over yourself.
You know how much I trust someone who has admitted to lying? Slightly more than someone who claims to have never lied.
August 12th, 2008 at 9:13 am
MoMan said:
> Mark H., where in the world did you get the “fact” that snipers take the curvature of the world into account (about eight inches per mile, as I remember, so not really a number of any consequence)?
1 mile is 5280 ft. Snipers shoot 2000 yards easy. 2000 yards = 6000 ft, greater than 1 mile. Curvature of 8 in/mile means they have to account for over 8 inches of drop to shoot 2000 yds.
Remember that snipers are going for a target about 6 inches across. Not “center of body”, they’re going for “center of head”. If they neglect curvature, they miss.
August 12th, 2008 at 9:13 am
Ok, again, this flat earth thingie is a joke. The flat earth web site’s FAQ states that the earth sits on the back of turtles. Got the reference? Alright, YHBT. HAND.
August 12th, 2008 at 9:15 am
@Kate
I agree. I suspect talking to these funny people would be akin to trying to have a conversation with someone who mistakes hipper-than-thou irony for humor. Which is to say, pretty much like jabbing a fork in your ear.
August 12th, 2008 at 9:20 am
The Flat Earth Society isn’t who we should be worried about. It’s those crazies in the Man Will Never Fly Club you have to watch out for.
August 12th, 2008 at 9:20 am
Philip asks:
“now Phil, is there a handy experiment to show the earth we stand on is actually spherical?”
The greeks knew the earth was spherical by noticing the earth’s shadow is always circular during a lunar eclipse, and using that measured the circumference by comparing the angle of the sun at noon in two places (one pretty much due north of the other). Simple geometry then gets the circumference.
More interestingly, Gauss showed that you can measure curvature intrinsically on a surface. In this case, measure out an east-west line of about 6 miles (10 km), then head due north (90 degree turn) from the endpoints to construct a square. If you measure the distance between the endpoints of the northern end of those lines, you will find (in the northern hemisphere) that they are less than six miles. If you assume constant curvature, you can get the radius of curvature out of that.
Mark H. asks:
“Why not have these “flat-earth” folks talk (and i mean talk) to a Marine Corps sniper. Let him explain the them that when he is calculating the trajectory of the bullet, he has to account for wind, barometric pressure and CURVATURE of the earth, along with other factors.”
I think (and MoMan also pointed out) that snipers don’t normally take the curvature of the earth into account. (Nor barometric pressure) But as Al noted, battleships firing their big guns *did*, as do artillerymen (since the ranges of these ballistic weapons are on the order of 30-50 km).
Alan says:
“The simplest primary (Grade?) school physics knowledge shows that the Earth isn’t flat ”
Ummm- no, not really. Indeed, during freshman physics, the curvature of the earth is ignored (i.e. gravitation is assumed to be perpendicular to a flat plan) when deriving the path of a thrown object as a parabola (also air-resistance is ignored). The actual path (since the lines of force would meet at the earth’s center, and so are not parallel) is a piece of ellipse.
This is essentially the difference seen in the ballistics of artillery (plus air resistance, and the earth’s rotation which must also be dealt with).
cheers all-
Eric
The Turtle Moves!
August 12th, 2008 at 9:30 am
“If someone showed them my page, they’d probably just deny the existence of the internet.”
There is no Internet. The government has merely installed super-advanced Artificial Intelligence on every computer which displays things as though they were being pulled up from remote locations.
But the data is actually being generated on the spot, locally, in your computer. That’s why cable Internet companies are so profitable. They don’t provide a service so they have no overhead.
August 12th, 2008 at 9:33 am
Man Will Never Fly Club
Well, Man doesn’t. Man’s devices do.
August 12th, 2008 at 9:33 am
“Not “center of body”, they’re going for “center of head”. If they neglect curvature, they miss.”
Er, how exactly? Don’t they actually LOOK at their target before pulling the trigger? If you do, you don’t need to take the curvature of the Earth into account, it’s already built into the location of the target. Of course, 8″ over 1 mile is much more likely to be overwhelmed by the topographic variations in the Earth’s surface so you’d never notice the curvature anyway.
On the other hand, *gravity* I bet they have to account for.
August 12th, 2008 at 9:45 am
Sorry for the open tag. No preview button.
August 12th, 2008 at 10:22 am
@John Weiss
No, see. They need to account for the curvature of the Earth for those instance where they have no scope, but do know the height and exact coordinates of their unmoving target on a level plain with no hills, ditches, etc.
And it’s not gravity they need to account for…it’s all those annoying intervening magnets that the enemy puts in the way to draw the bullet off its trajectory.
August 12th, 2008 at 10:30 am
[...] The Bad Astronomer posted about this BBC article, but I just need to chime in. [...]
August 12th, 2008 at 10:35 am
Well, Man doesn’t (fly). Man’s devices do.
Of course that’s what they want you to believe!
August 12th, 2008 at 10:40 am
I wonder if in about 10,000 years people will be making fun of the “Faster-than-light travel is impossible” society, a group that will claim all the other solar-systems we visit are not trillions or quadrillions of miles away but only mere millions, and that it’s all a big conspiracy.
August 12th, 2008 at 10:41 am
[...] Bad Astronomer reports about a dude complaining about the discrimination, scorn, and ridicule that flat-earthers face today. Do they deserve any [...]
August 12th, 2008 at 11:04 am
“is there a handy experiment to show the earth we stand on is actually spherical?”
Yes there is! I wanted to prove that the earth was round for fun once with experiment data that I could get for myself. I found a great experiment that proves the earth is round and you can figure out what the circumference is too!
You need two points due north of each other. My two points were Los Angeles and Mammoth Lakes, CA. Take two poles and put them in the ground. Use a plumb bob to make sure they are vertical. Then measure the length of the pole and the length of the shadow cast by each pole at noon. The distance (for me) between the poles is known (310 miles). You calculate the arc (4.4 degrees). And the you get the Earths circumference: 25363 Miles (Not too bad considering all the errors in my experiment). If the earth were flat the shadows would be the same length. My kids loved the experience. Go science.
August 12th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
I didn’t know, until today, that anybody still paid any attention to Flat Earthers.
August 12th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
I made one last night – but for some unknown reason, it’s stuck in the Black Hole of Moderation. Maybe because I put a link in it?
August 12th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
Testing……….testing……….WordPress just ate my comment…….
@ Quiet Desperation:
I did last night, but it’s stuck in the Black Hole of Moderation. Maybe because I put a link in it?
August 12th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
The Flat Earth Society is a satirical endeavor that’s been around for decades. Started as a joke on those whose beliefs were in direct contradiction to reality. RAther like the Flying Spaghetti Monster,,,
See, satire hard. Banana jokes easy,,,
GAry 7
August 12th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
Satirical?
hardly.
My husband’s Earth Science teacher was a Flat Earth Society member.
Needless to say, they didn’t learn much. She ended almost every sentence with “but this isn’t really true.” or other such things.
grrrrr….
August 12th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
“If someone showed them my page, they’d probably just deny the existence of the internet.”
Classic. I had a good laugh over that line.
August 12th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
Sometimes, to make your point, you have to defend the opposing view with vigor. Only then can it be seen as obviously ridiculous.
This seems to have been a sarcasm experiment gone wrong.
I’ll join the brigade and fight this fire by starting with my children.
Honestly, it looks like someone rolled eyes at a silly notion, presented this tripe as sarcasm and some people fell for it.
August 12th, 2008 at 9:16 pm
# Quiet Desperation Says:
August 12th, 2008 at 5:05 am
53 comments and no Discworld references. I’m disappointed, people.
– - – - –
I was at the library today and one of the new arrivals was the hardcover edition of “The Discworld Graphic Novels,” if that helps . . .
August 12th, 2008 at 9:55 pm
Did you know that Sir Patrick Moore is a member of The Flat Earth Society?
Look him up on Wikipedia and scroll down to the Personal Life section. Also check out the link at Ref. 7.
August 13th, 2008 at 9:55 am
I was at the library today and one of the new arrivals was the hardcover edition of “The Discworld Graphic Novels,” if that helps . . .
It does!
(Clicks away to amazon.com)
August 13th, 2008 at 8:11 pm
Unfortunately, he is the one talking out of ignorance. He didn’t even finish the article let alone research any literature on the flat earth theory. I understand his frustration. However, hopefully he realizes he is indeed the pot calling the kettle black.
August 14th, 2008 at 8:33 am
LOL at this Iraqi TV Debate between a fundamentalist and a physicist : Is the Earth Flat?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wppjYDj9JUc
August 14th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Hey Phil-
Have you heard of Poe’s law? It’s an internet law in the style of Godwin’s law, etc… Poe’s law states, basically, that it is impossible to write a parody of fundamentalist thinking that is so off the wall that it will not be taken seriously by someone. Another implied aspect of the law is that it is impossible to distinguish between a fundamentalist website and a parody of one.
August 14th, 2008 at 11:49 pm
Okay, way late, and probably way beyond the who cares stage, but I’m afraid my estimate of the book “Flat Earth” by Christine Garwood just went down a notch.
Check out this howler, from page 232:
Um…”gravity does not exist far beyond the earth”????
I know this is more history book than science textbook, but…it’s the history of a scientific argument.
August 15th, 2008 at 7:16 am
If earth was like a disk, all of the world would be day or night at one specific time, and not part of it night and part of it day, and changing gradually to day or night, of course this explanation is for flat earthers ! And you don,t need to claim the satellite photos are fake, what do you say about regular airplanes when you see by your own eyes at high altitudes ?
August 19th, 2008 at 9:30 pm
[...] got an interesting incentive, when Phil Plait (The Bad Astronomer) wrote about a recently published BBC article about “The Flat Earth” society. Phil claims it’s ridiculous to even bother rebutting the flat earth society – and I tend to [...]
August 22nd, 2008 at 8:30 pm
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=9820fab82ffd2c451d6fbe29bdf5a353&topic=11211.0
This website takes the tinfoil cake!
September 5th, 2008 at 12:45 am
You know, some of you people think you are SOOO smart, don’t you?
You’re so smart in fact, that you don’t even understand the true nature of the website and/or its members.
Instead of talking out of your collective arses here where you think you are safe, go here: http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php , sign up and prepare to defend yourselves. You have no idea what the website is about. Well, I’ll admit that some of you have an idea and others have even hit the nail on the head, but the majority of you are too full of yourselves to go and have a sensible debate about what you THINK you know.
Our website challenges you to use your brain. It challenges you to think for yourself. It has even renewed some people’s interest in astronomy, physics and oh, check this out – debating.
Obviously, some of you are only going to believe what you want (as evidenced by those of you that completely ignored the people on this site telling you what the site is REALLY about) and will only get mad, frustrated and driven to drinking, but some of you may actually get the hint and have some fun.
Go on now, I dare you.
September 5th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
The Earth is flat.
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:38 am
[...] Flat Earth? Really? [...]
May 20th, 2009 at 7:31 am
[...] Flat Earth? Really? [...]