<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Planet pr0n</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/08/13/planet-pr0n/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/08/13/planet-pr0n/</link>
	<description>I am an astronomer, writer, and skeptic. I likes reality the way it is, and I aims to keep it that way. My real name is Phil Plait, and I run the Bad Astronomy blog.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 18:40:24 -0600</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: StevoR</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/08/13/planet-pr0n/comment-page-3/#comment-117984</link>
		<dc:creator>StevoR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2008 03:41:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/08/13/planet-pr0n/#comment-117984</guid>
		<description>Okay if this works folks can click my name to get back to the &#039;Still Here&#039; thread where this debate is (sort of) still going as a sub-theme! 

Isn&#039;t it funny how things keep ending upon Pluto! ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay if this works folks can click my name to get back to the &#8216;Still Here&#8217; thread where this debate is (sort of) still going as a sub-theme! </p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t it funny how things keep ending upon Pluto! <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Charlie (Colorado)</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/08/13/planet-pr0n/comment-page-3/#comment-113820</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie (Colorado)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 01:37:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/08/13/planet-pr0n/#comment-113820</guid>
		<description>Dammit, I wish you had a preview.  I hope you can close that link.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dammit, I wish you had a preview.  I hope you can close that link.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Charlie (Colorado)</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/08/13/planet-pr0n/comment-page-3/#comment-113819</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie (Colorado)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 01:36:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/08/13/planet-pr0n/#comment-113819</guid>
		<description>And this is why people ought to have classes in logic and rhetoric in undergrad schools, even if they &lt;i&gt;are&lt;/i&gt; planning to be scientists.  

You&#039;re running into the problem of the &lt;a href=&quot;http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/sorites-paradox/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;sorites&lt;/a&gt;: a bunch of things that add up, little by little, so that a very small difference pushes something from one (somewhat arbitrary) category to another.  The canonical example is the category of &quot;bald men.&quot;  I have a pretty full head of hair, at lest compared to most men my age; I&#039;m not bald. If I were to lose one hair, I still wouldn&#039;t be bal; lose two, and, well, that&#039;s only a different oce one hair.  Flash forward until I&#039;ve alost all but &lt;i&gt;one&lt;/i&gt; of my remaining hairs, and sure enough I&#039;ll be bald.  But you&#039;ll be hard-pressed to find the time in between at which removing one hair moved me from &quot;not bald&quot; to &quot;bald.&quot; 

I talked with Dan about this myself, a couple of years ago, with the idea that there were inflections or discontinuities in the distributions of sizes that might give us a hint.  The problem there is that, at least at that time and based on an over-lunch conversation, there really aren&#039;t; the distribution of object size versus number of objects seems pretty continuous.

Of course, if that&#039;s &lt;i&gt;true&lt;/i&gt;, it&#039;s unlikely that &lt;i&gt;any&lt;/i&gt; definition will be able to crisply determine whether an object is, or isn&#039;t, a planet.  No matter what, it&#039;s likely that we&#039;ll find  there are objects that seem &quot;planet-like&quot; but which are just outside our definition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And this is why people ought to have classes in logic and rhetoric in undergrad schools, even if they <i>are</i> planning to be scientists.  </p>
<p>You&#8217;re running into the problem of the <a href="http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/sorites-paradox/" rel="nofollow">sorites</a>: a bunch of things that add up, little by little, so that a very small difference pushes something from one (somewhat arbitrary) category to another.  The canonical example is the category of &#8220;bald men.&#8221;  I have a pretty full head of hair, at lest compared to most men my age; I&#8217;m not bald. If I were to lose one hair, I still wouldn&#8217;t be bal; lose two, and, well, that&#8217;s only a different oce one hair.  Flash forward until I&#8217;ve alost all but <i>one</i> of my remaining hairs, and sure enough I&#8217;ll be bald.  But you&#8217;ll be hard-pressed to find the time in between at which removing one hair moved me from &#8220;not bald&#8221; to &#8220;bald.&#8221; </p>
<p>I talked with Dan about this myself, a couple of years ago, with the idea that there were inflections or discontinuities in the distributions of sizes that might give us a hint.  The problem there is that, at least at that time and based on an over-lunch conversation, there really aren&#8217;t; the distribution of object size versus number of objects seems pretty continuous.</p>
<p>Of course, if that&#8217;s <i>true</i>, it&#8217;s unlikely that <i>any</i> definition will be able to crisply determine whether an object is, or isn&#8217;t, a planet.  No matter what, it&#8217;s likely that we&#8217;ll find  there are objects that seem &#8220;planet-like&#8221; but which are just outside our definition.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Minor planets, major thoughts &#124; Bad Astronomy &#124; Discover Magazine</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/08/13/planet-pr0n/comment-page-3/#comment-113419</link>
		<dc:creator>Minor planets, major thoughts &#124; Bad Astronomy &#124; Discover Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 16:25:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/08/13/planet-pr0n/#comment-113419</guid>
		<description>[...] after discussions with Alan Stern, I&#8217;m still struggling to figure out if this is merely a semantic argument, or a truly [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] after discussions with Alan Stern, I&#8217;m still struggling to figure out if this is merely a semantic argument, or a truly [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Nails67</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/08/13/planet-pr0n/comment-page-3/#comment-112576</link>
		<dc:creator>Nails67</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 17:07:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/08/13/planet-pr0n/#comment-112576</guid>
		<description>Why do we need a definition of planet? Pluto is what it is, whether it&#039;s a planet or not. Same with Earth, Jupiter, and Ceres. No one really gets bent out of shape about the definition of &quot;continent&quot;, and I defy you to establish a definition of continent that would uncontroversially yield the seven (or six or five, depending on what part of the world you are from) continents that we recognize today. Looking at a Dymaxion map makes it hard to argue that there is more than one continent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why do we need a definition of planet? Pluto is what it is, whether it&#8217;s a planet or not. Same with Earth, Jupiter, and Ceres. No one really gets bent out of shape about the definition of &#8220;continent&#8221;, and I defy you to establish a definition of continent that would uncontroversially yield the seven (or six or five, depending on what part of the world you are from) continents that we recognize today. Looking at a Dymaxion map makes it hard to argue that there is more than one continent.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Torbjörn Larsson, OM</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/08/13/planet-pr0n/comment-page-3/#comment-112456</link>
		<dc:creator>Torbjörn Larsson, OM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 11:09:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/08/13/planet-pr0n/#comment-112456</guid>
		<description>@ Jorge:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
You can create indexes showing big gaps in just about anything; you just have to taylor carefully what goes into them. [...] And the mass ratio is everything.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That isn&#039;t what the paper says. It establishes a natural gap. (Yes, using mass ratio as I said, to establish clearing/mass dominance. And a time scale, again naturally characteristic.)

&lt;blockquote&gt;
The neighborhood being dinamically decided is yet another absolute nonsense. Orbits shift, and they shift to the point that we just can’t know for sure at present where the planets orbited in the past.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That wasn&#039;t the process I (and, IIRC, the paper; yes, it was a while since I read it) described. My very first comment mentioned the planetary formation process from the planetary disk.

As for your observation that some bodies may change status, it is exactly what I mentioned earlier in the analogy with biology. There it makes sense, and if we regard the planetary formation process as basis for defining planetary bodies it may make sense here too. 

[But if we try to make the analogy exact, IAU is actually trying to establish an analogue to a &#039;species&#039;, in which case they will have to look for a closely related population. That, I assume would include all inner system originated bodies; planets, most asteroids and most moons.]

&lt;blockquote&gt;
And the checking time is the age of the Solar System, which is why the index details the current state of affairs, not what happened in the past, nor any possible future state.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

As the current state is contingent on the historical path, I don&#039;t see how one can argue that it isn&#039;t a result of a dynamic process. [Btw, again this is very analogous to biology, because species are historically contingent on the dynamic process of evolution. But I&#039;m not arguing that is necessarily a good thing.]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Jorge:</p>
<blockquote><p>
You can create indexes showing big gaps in just about anything; you just have to taylor carefully what goes into them. [...] And the mass ratio is everything.
</p></blockquote>
<p>That isn&#8217;t what the paper says. It establishes a natural gap. (Yes, using mass ratio as I said, to establish clearing/mass dominance. And a time scale, again naturally characteristic.)</p>
<blockquote><p>
The neighborhood being dinamically decided is yet another absolute nonsense. Orbits shift, and they shift to the point that we just can’t know for sure at present where the planets orbited in the past.
</p></blockquote>
<p>That wasn&#8217;t the process I (and, IIRC, the paper; yes, it was a while since I read it) described. My very first comment mentioned the planetary formation process from the planetary disk.</p>
<p>As for your observation that some bodies may change status, it is exactly what I mentioned earlier in the analogy with biology. There it makes sense, and if we regard the planetary formation process as basis for defining planetary bodies it may make sense here too. </p>
<p>[But if we try to make the analogy exact, IAU is actually trying to establish an analogue to a 'species', in which case they will have to look for a closely related population. That, I assume would include all inner system originated bodies; planets, most asteroids and most moons.]</p>
<blockquote><p>
And the checking time is the age of the Solar System, which is why the index details the current state of affairs, not what happened in the past, nor any possible future state.
</p></blockquote>
<p>As the current state is contingent on the historical path, I don&#8217;t see how one can argue that it isn&#8217;t a result of a dynamic process. [Btw, again this is very analogous to biology, because species are historically contingent on the dynamic process of evolution. But I'm not arguing that is necessarily a good thing.]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Laurel Kornfeld</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/08/13/planet-pr0n/comment-page-3/#comment-112443</link>
		<dc:creator>Laurel Kornfeld</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 05:52:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/08/13/planet-pr0n/#comment-112443</guid>
		<description>Sorry, Quiet Desperation, but &quot;letting it go&quot; when the IAU definition makes no linguistic sense and was made by a tiny minority of its members, most of whom are not planetary scientists, in a process motivated by political sentiment that did not even follow the recommendations of the IAU&#039;s own committee is just plain wrong.  What is this bias toward letting things go?  If something is wrong, it&#039;s still wrong a year or two years or ten years later and needs to be fixed.

Thank you, SteveoR, for your very comprehensive list of why the IAU vote was a travesty and why Pluto, as well as Ceres, Eris, MakeMake, and other dwarf planets should be considered a subclass of planets. With the IAU having made such a mess, I hardly trust them as the &quot;experts&quot; in this field.  In fact, most IAU members are not planetary scientists, and most planetary scientists are not members of the IAU.  That leads to the inevitable conclusion that planetary scientists should form their own organization to deal with defining the objects they study.

I was at the Great Planet Debate, and Stern makes a compelling case for hydrostatic equilibrium as the one criteria that unites both &quot;major&quot; or &quot;classical&quot; planets and dwarf planets and separates them from asteroids or small solar system bodies.  Objects at the mass where they can attain hydrostatic equilibrium are fundamentally different than inert asteroids--they are differentiated geologically, the same way the terrestrial planets are.  Yes, they are dynamically different, in that being smaller, they don&#039;t dominate their neighborhoods.  That&#039;s why they are classified as dwarf planets, but it is not reason to state that they are not planets at all.

Phil, Pluto DOES fit the bill for being a planet. You argue that science shouldn&#039;t be driven by public opinion but don&#039;t mention that neither should it be driven by fiat or decree of a small insular body whose members have their own personal agendas.  I believe that when New Horizons gets to Pluto, we will have sufficient data to illustrate Pluto&#039;s planetary features that there will be no need to rely on a decree because &quot;someone says so.&quot;  The same is true for Ceres regarding Dawn. In the meantime, the public is fully capable of understanding that the issue is a subject of ongoing debate with two differing schools of thought and that there is no one &quot;right&quot; answer, at least until 2015.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, Quiet Desperation, but &#8220;letting it go&#8221; when the IAU definition makes no linguistic sense and was made by a tiny minority of its members, most of whom are not planetary scientists, in a process motivated by political sentiment that did not even follow the recommendations of the IAU&#8217;s own committee is just plain wrong.  What is this bias toward letting things go?  If something is wrong, it&#8217;s still wrong a year or two years or ten years later and needs to be fixed.</p>
<p>Thank you, SteveoR, for your very comprehensive list of why the IAU vote was a travesty and why Pluto, as well as Ceres, Eris, MakeMake, and other dwarf planets should be considered a subclass of planets. With the IAU having made such a mess, I hardly trust them as the &#8220;experts&#8221; in this field.  In fact, most IAU members are not planetary scientists, and most planetary scientists are not members of the IAU.  That leads to the inevitable conclusion that planetary scientists should form their own organization to deal with defining the objects they study.</p>
<p>I was at the Great Planet Debate, and Stern makes a compelling case for hydrostatic equilibrium as the one criteria that unites both &#8220;major&#8221; or &#8220;classical&#8221; planets and dwarf planets and separates them from asteroids or small solar system bodies.  Objects at the mass where they can attain hydrostatic equilibrium are fundamentally different than inert asteroids&#8211;they are differentiated geologically, the same way the terrestrial planets are.  Yes, they are dynamically different, in that being smaller, they don&#8217;t dominate their neighborhoods.  That&#8217;s why they are classified as dwarf planets, but it is not reason to state that they are not planets at all.</p>
<p>Phil, Pluto DOES fit the bill for being a planet. You argue that science shouldn&#8217;t be driven by public opinion but don&#8217;t mention that neither should it be driven by fiat or decree of a small insular body whose members have their own personal agendas.  I believe that when New Horizons gets to Pluto, we will have sufficient data to illustrate Pluto&#8217;s planetary features that there will be no need to rely on a decree because &#8220;someone says so.&#8221;  The same is true for Ceres regarding Dawn. In the meantime, the public is fully capable of understanding that the issue is a subject of ongoing debate with two differing schools of thought and that there is no one &#8220;right&#8221; answer, at least until 2015.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
