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	<title>Comments on: The magnetic tendrils of NGC 1275</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/08/20/the-magnetic-tendrils-of-ngc-1275/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/08/20/the-magnetic-tendrils-of-ngc-1275/</link>
	<description>I am an astronomer, writer, and skeptic. I likes reality the way it is, and I aims to keep it that way. My real name is Phil Plait, and I run the Bad Astronomy blog.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 04:52:03 -0600</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: JACQUES MEADE</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/08/20/the-magnetic-tendrils-of-ngc-1275/comment-page-2/#comment-152382</link>
		<dc:creator>JACQUES MEADE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 01:54:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/08/20/the-magnetic-tendrils-of-ngc-1275/#comment-152382</guid>
		<description>@ Anconda,

&lt;b&gt;B.I.O.Y.A.!&lt;/b&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Anconda,</p>
<p><b>B.I.O.Y.A.!</b></p>
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		<title>By: Anaconda</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/08/20/the-magnetic-tendrils-of-ngc-1275/comment-page-2/#comment-152371</link>
		<dc:creator>Anaconda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 00:18:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/08/20/the-magnetic-tendrils-of-ngc-1275/#comment-152371</guid>
		<description>The author is in a bind.  This website furthers the popularization of astronomy (a worthy goal).  But electric currents in space divides the conventional astronomy &#039;community&#039;.  Many in the &#039;community&#039; still cling to the idea that &quot;electric&quot; currents do not exist in space.  But others recognize Maxwell&#039;s Equations, and other proofs that demonstrate the  physical law: Electric currents cause magnetic fields.

Therefore, if magnetic fields exist in space, then electric currents also exist in space by definition of physical law.

This divides the atronomical &#039;community&#039;.

If one is in the business of &#039;popularizing&#039; a field of knowledge then one is most reluctant to acknowledge anything that divides the &#039;community&#039;.

The popularizer can&#039;t win -- half the &#039;community&#039; will end up distancing itself, either way, and badmouth the popularizer.  Not the result a popularizer wants.

Better to hunker down and weather the storm.

But this dilemma should not be satifactory to searchers of the truth, i.e., matching theory with reality.

In essence, it&#039;s a political dilemma and not a scientific dilemma.

Scientifically, the answer is irrefutable: Electric currents exist in space.

(Although, there are people who will argue in the face of irrefutable evidence that electric currents don&#039;t exist in space.  Sadly, this only exposes their ignorance or cynicism and complicity.)

And that, perhaps, is the biggest dilemma in astronomy, today.  If astronomy is being held together by political considerations, such as group-think, rather than scientific compulsion, then the last thing you want to do is divide the &#039;community&#039;, lest the &#039;community&#039; splinter into unreconcilable political factions.

And another note that adds complexity to the whole painful situation:

The hated Plasma Cosmology has been stating emphatically that electric currents exist in space for a century.  Should conventional astronomy announce across the board that electric currents exist in space.  That affirms a basic tenent of a hated rival school of astronomical interpretation.

And many in conventional astronomy would rather suppress the &quot;small truth&quot; (electric currents in space) in order to preserve their &quot;larger truth,&quot; (&quot;big bang&quot;, &quot;black hole&quot; theory) as they see it.

(It should be strongly pointed out, there are sincere folks that acknowledge electric currents in space, but maintain these are generated by black holes, and the big bang created, with it&#039;s high temperatures and pressures, the charge seperation ubiquitous in space, today.)

Because it&#039;s simple: Once you admit that electric currents exist in space and that magnetic fields are only a result of electric currents, then the whole fabric of conventional astronomy begins to unravel.

Conventional astronomy, protests not withstanding, does not have enough internal consistency and scientifically rigorous evidence to support itself when exposed to a coherent, encompassing alternative theory.  One that encompasses and explains the dominant matter (99%) in the Universe: charged particle plasma.

The mission to the popularizer, should he choose to accept it (&quot;play Mission Impossible music please&quot;), is to move astronomy to a foundation that encompasses what can&#039;t be scientifically denied (electric current in space), but still holds together the basic tenents of the field (&quot;big bang&quot;, &quot;black hole&quot; theory).

The strategy at this point in time seems to be this (only speculation): Place black holes on firmer scientific foundation.  De-emphasize &quot;dark matter&quot; and &quot;dark energy&quot;.  Don&#039;t beat the drum for big bang, but then again, never disavow it, either.

The danger: Those that won&#039;t drop this insistence against &#039;electric currents in space&#039; and the clear history of conventional astronomy.

It&#039;s a daunting task.

It may, in the end, turn out like Soviet Communism.  Mikhail Gorbachev knew he needed to reform Russian Communism from the inside or it would fail.  But the internal inconsistencies were too great, any reform allowed the inconsistencies to be exposed to full examination, and it couldn&#039;t survive that.  So, in essence, Gorbachev was damned if he did and damned if he didn&#039;t.

Gorbachev ended up being a &quot;scape goat&quot; of history.

Who wants to step up and take that task or role on for astronomy?

So, the impasse stands unresolved.

But, as long as the &quot;impasse&quot; stands unresolved, events will continue to come forth (scientific observations and measurements) that undermine and contradict the sterile notion that electromagnetic force has little influence in space and the &#039;plausible denial&#039; with become increasingly threadbare (it&#039;s pretty frayed right now) and the eventual collapse will be too mind numbing to contemplate.

A dilemma, yes, but ultimately unavoidable.

The longer one waits that harder it will be to solve.

&quot;Que up the Mission Impossible music.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The author is in a bind.  This website furthers the popularization of astronomy (a worthy goal).  But electric currents in space divides the conventional astronomy &#8216;community&#8217;.  Many in the &#8216;community&#8217; still cling to the idea that &#8220;electric&#8221; currents do not exist in space.  But others recognize Maxwell&#8217;s Equations, and other proofs that demonstrate the  physical law: Electric currents cause magnetic fields.</p>
<p>Therefore, if magnetic fields exist in space, then electric currents also exist in space by definition of physical law.</p>
<p>This divides the atronomical &#8216;community&#8217;.</p>
<p>If one is in the business of &#8216;popularizing&#8217; a field of knowledge then one is most reluctant to acknowledge anything that divides the &#8216;community&#8217;.</p>
<p>The popularizer can&#8217;t win &#8212; half the &#8216;community&#8217; will end up distancing itself, either way, and badmouth the popularizer.  Not the result a popularizer wants.</p>
<p>Better to hunker down and weather the storm.</p>
<p>But this dilemma should not be satifactory to searchers of the truth, i.e., matching theory with reality.</p>
<p>In essence, it&#8217;s a political dilemma and not a scientific dilemma.</p>
<p>Scientifically, the answer is irrefutable: Electric currents exist in space.</p>
<p>(Although, there are people who will argue in the face of irrefutable evidence that electric currents don&#8217;t exist in space.  Sadly, this only exposes their ignorance or cynicism and complicity.)</p>
<p>And that, perhaps, is the biggest dilemma in astronomy, today.  If astronomy is being held together by political considerations, such as group-think, rather than scientific compulsion, then the last thing you want to do is divide the &#8216;community&#8217;, lest the &#8216;community&#8217; splinter into unreconcilable political factions.</p>
<p>And another note that adds complexity to the whole painful situation:</p>
<p>The hated Plasma Cosmology has been stating emphatically that electric currents exist in space for a century.  Should conventional astronomy announce across the board that electric currents exist in space.  That affirms a basic tenent of a hated rival school of astronomical interpretation.</p>
<p>And many in conventional astronomy would rather suppress the &#8220;small truth&#8221; (electric currents in space) in order to preserve their &#8220;larger truth,&#8221; (&#8221;big bang&#8221;, &#8220;black hole&#8221; theory) as they see it.</p>
<p>(It should be strongly pointed out, there are sincere folks that acknowledge electric currents in space, but maintain these are generated by black holes, and the big bang created, with it&#8217;s high temperatures and pressures, the charge seperation ubiquitous in space, today.)</p>
<p>Because it&#8217;s simple: Once you admit that electric currents exist in space and that magnetic fields are only a result of electric currents, then the whole fabric of conventional astronomy begins to unravel.</p>
<p>Conventional astronomy, protests not withstanding, does not have enough internal consistency and scientifically rigorous evidence to support itself when exposed to a coherent, encompassing alternative theory.  One that encompasses and explains the dominant matter (99%) in the Universe: charged particle plasma.</p>
<p>The mission to the popularizer, should he choose to accept it (&#8221;play Mission Impossible music please&#8221;), is to move astronomy to a foundation that encompasses what can&#8217;t be scientifically denied (electric current in space), but still holds together the basic tenents of the field (&#8221;big bang&#8221;, &#8220;black hole&#8221; theory).</p>
<p>The strategy at this point in time seems to be this (only speculation): Place black holes on firmer scientific foundation.  De-emphasize &#8220;dark matter&#8221; and &#8220;dark energy&#8221;.  Don&#8217;t beat the drum for big bang, but then again, never disavow it, either.</p>
<p>The danger: Those that won&#8217;t drop this insistence against &#8216;electric currents in space&#8217; and the clear history of conventional astronomy.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a daunting task.</p>
<p>It may, in the end, turn out like Soviet Communism.  Mikhail Gorbachev knew he needed to reform Russian Communism from the inside or it would fail.  But the internal inconsistencies were too great, any reform allowed the inconsistencies to be exposed to full examination, and it couldn&#8217;t survive that.  So, in essence, Gorbachev was damned if he did and damned if he didn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>Gorbachev ended up being a &#8220;scape goat&#8221; of history.</p>
<p>Who wants to step up and take that task or role on for astronomy?</p>
<p>So, the impasse stands unresolved.</p>
<p>But, as long as the &#8220;impasse&#8221; stands unresolved, events will continue to come forth (scientific observations and measurements) that undermine and contradict the sterile notion that electromagnetic force has little influence in space and the &#8216;plausible denial&#8217; with become increasingly threadbare (it&#8217;s pretty frayed right now) and the eventual collapse will be too mind numbing to contemplate.</p>
<p>A dilemma, yes, but ultimately unavoidable.</p>
<p>The longer one waits that harder it will be to solve.</p>
<p>&#8220;Que up the Mission Impossible music.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Spann</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/08/20/the-magnetic-tendrils-of-ngc-1275/comment-page-2/#comment-137717</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Spann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 06:41:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/08/20/the-magnetic-tendrils-of-ngc-1275/#comment-137717</guid>
		<description>Note to Phil Plait :

Please have the common courtesy to respond to your many critics who have consistently called on you to declare whether or not you accept the basic premise that ALL magnetism observed in space is, by definition, a product of electric currents in that space.

Do you accept this basic tenet of Electromagetism, or do you deny it?

Stand and deliver your answer sir.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Note to Phil Plait :</p>
<p>Please have the common courtesy to respond to your many critics who have consistently called on you to declare whether or not you accept the basic premise that ALL magnetism observed in space is, by definition, a product of electric currents in that space.</p>
<p>Do you accept this basic tenet of Electromagetism, or do you deny it?</p>
<p>Stand and deliver your answer sir.</p>
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		<title>By: The magnetic tendrils of NGC 1275 galaxy &#124; Maathiyoose</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/08/20/the-magnetic-tendrils-of-ngc-1275/comment-page-2/#comment-118708</link>
		<dc:creator>The magnetic tendrils of NGC 1275 galaxy &#124; Maathiyoose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 21:33:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/08/20/the-magnetic-tendrils-of-ngc-1275/#comment-118708</guid>
		<description>[...] you find it Interesting. Here is the link to know [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] you find it Interesting. Here is the link to know [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Davidlpf</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/08/20/the-magnetic-tendrils-of-ngc-1275/comment-page-2/#comment-118452</link>
		<dc:creator>Davidlpf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 20:44:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/08/20/the-magnetic-tendrils-of-ngc-1275/#comment-118452</guid>
		<description>I say to the electric universe people check your own premise, for  electricty to produce an magnetic field the charged particles have to be moving, also the number of charged particles matter, fewer charged particles and slower the velocity of the particles lower the magnetic field.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I say to the electric universe people check your own premise, for  electricty to produce an magnetic field the charged particles have to be moving, also the number of charged particles matter, fewer charged particles and slower the velocity of the particles lower the magnetic field.</p>
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		<title>By: DeiRenDopa</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/08/20/the-magnetic-tendrils-of-ngc-1275/comment-page-2/#comment-118447</link>
		<dc:creator>DeiRenDopa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 20:24:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/08/20/the-magnetic-tendrils-of-ngc-1275/#comment-118447</guid>
		<description>Marnee said: &quot;If one replaces one’s premise with electromagnetism (interacting with plasma and charged bodies, of course) as the dominant force, then one can logically recognize that these “tendrils” (amongst many other structures) are the results of electrodynamics in plasma.&quot;

I guess you don&#039;t mean to imply this, but it&#039;s there in what you wrote: in sciences such as astrophysics, &quot;logically recognizing&quot; something is rather underwhelming, somewhat akin to &#039;that cloud looks like a doggie&#039;.

The good news is that astronomical observations are, these days, fully quantitative, and estimates of things like the density, state of ionisation, strength and direction of magnetic field, and temperature of the &quot;tendrils&quot; can be made.  From there, quite a few good MHD codes could be used to model the tendrils ... but before that the kind of consistency checks reported in the Fabian et al. paper are well worth doing.  Only after those checks have been done - and the plausibility of magnetic support for the filaments demonstrated quantitatively - does it make sense to dive deeper into detailed, MHD-based, models.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marnee said: &#8220;If one replaces one’s premise with electromagnetism (interacting with plasma and charged bodies, of course) as the dominant force, then one can logically recognize that these “tendrils” (amongst many other structures) are the results of electrodynamics in plasma.&#8221;</p>
<p>I guess you don&#8217;t mean to imply this, but it&#8217;s there in what you wrote: in sciences such as astrophysics, &#8220;logically recognizing&#8221; something is rather underwhelming, somewhat akin to &#8216;that cloud looks like a doggie&#8217;.</p>
<p>The good news is that astronomical observations are, these days, fully quantitative, and estimates of things like the density, state of ionisation, strength and direction of magnetic field, and temperature of the &#8220;tendrils&#8221; can be made.  From there, quite a few good MHD codes could be used to model the tendrils &#8230; but before that the kind of consistency checks reported in the Fabian et al. paper are well worth doing.  Only after those checks have been done &#8211; and the plausibility of magnetic support for the filaments demonstrated quantitatively &#8211; does it make sense to dive deeper into detailed, MHD-based, models.</p>
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		<title>By: Marnee</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/08/20/the-magnetic-tendrils-of-ngc-1275/comment-page-2/#comment-118442</link>
		<dc:creator>Marnee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 19:29:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/08/20/the-magnetic-tendrils-of-ngc-1275/#comment-118442</guid>
		<description>&quot;So the problem with magnetic fields is not the basics, but the how and why on the cosmic scale, the interplay of EM fields and interstellar matter etc.&quot;

No not really.  This is only true if one holds the gravity premise (and even then not so much if one is familiar with relativistic jets).  If one replaces one&#039;s premise with electromagnetism (interacting with plasma and charged bodies, of course) as the dominant force, then one can logically recognize that these &quot;tendrils&quot; (amongst many other structures) are the results of electrodynamics in plasma.   (I think the notion that plasma physics is infinitely scalable has been shown well enough.)   

I say check your premises!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;So the problem with magnetic fields is not the basics, but the how and why on the cosmic scale, the interplay of EM fields and interstellar matter etc.&#8221;</p>
<p>No not really.  This is only true if one holds the gravity premise (and even then not so much if one is familiar with relativistic jets).  If one replaces one&#8217;s premise with electromagnetism (interacting with plasma and charged bodies, of course) as the dominant force, then one can logically recognize that these &#8220;tendrils&#8221; (amongst many other structures) are the results of electrodynamics in plasma.   (I think the notion that plasma physics is infinitely scalable has been shown well enough.)   </p>
<p>I say check your premises!</p>
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