Comments on: The FTC wakes up, too http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/ I am an astronomer, writer, and skeptic. I likes reality the way it is, and I aims to keep it that way. My real name is Phil Plait, and I run the Bad Astronomy blog. Tue, 14 Feb 2012 16:11:49 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: michelle http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/comment-page-2/#comment-121897 michelle Mon, 29 Sep 2008 18:58:42 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/#comment-121897 isnt it odd that there hasnt been a cure for a major disease since polio? cmon people, canser is a money making business, pharmacutical compnaies would go out of business if they found a cure for cancer. They create diseases then creat a phony drug that surpresses it temporariy until it causes some other "unatural function" in yr body. the earth has many remidies, how do you think mankind survived before, doctors, pharmacutical companies, fda, fts, and the goverment? they are trying to regulate population and want money money money isnt it odd that there hasnt been a cure for a major disease since polio? cmon people, canser is a money making business, pharmacutical compnaies would go out of business if they found a cure for cancer. They create diseases then creat a phony drug that surpresses it temporariy until it causes some other “unatural function” in yr body.
the earth has many remidies, how do you think mankind survived before, doctors, pharmacutical companies, fda, fts, and the goverment?
they are trying to regulate population and want money money money

]]> By: Celtic_Evolution http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/comment-page-2/#comment-120640 Celtic_Evolution Wed, 24 Sep 2008 13:14:49 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/#comment-120640 @ Harold - OK... Thanks for clarifying. I still think it helps to keep an emotional response within the context of a particular conversation, and yours seemed a bit extreme for this discussion. But I can understand the reason for your feeling that way, based on your description. @ Harold –

OK… Thanks for clarifying. I still think it helps to keep an emotional response within the context of a particular conversation, and yours seemed a bit extreme for this discussion. But I can understand the reason for your feeling that way, based on your description.

]]> By: Celtic_Evolution http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/comment-page-2/#comment-120639 Celtic_Evolution Wed, 24 Sep 2008 13:12:51 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/#comment-120639 Michael L - Well, it depends... if an endorser is found to meet the same 5 criteria listed above for fraud, and profits from that fraud at the expense of the victim, yes... an endorser could technically be included as a party to the fraud. A victim must demonstrate that the endorser is in fact aware that a claim is false, and that's always the hard part. Additionally, I believe most celebrities who do endorsements sign contracts that have built in indemnity clauses in them which state that while the person may endorse the product, he or she does not represent any claims made by the product manufacturer. This is fairly common in endorsement deals and is meant to protect the endorser from liability. I can't think of a case off the top of my head where an endorser has been found guilty of fraud for endorsing a fraudulent product. Although someone with more direct knowledge of such a case may know of one. Michael L –

Well, it depends… if an endorser is found to meet the same 5 criteria listed above for fraud, and profits from that fraud at the expense of the victim, yes… an endorser could technically be included as a party to the fraud. A victim must demonstrate that the endorser is in fact aware that a claim is false, and that’s always the hard part.

Additionally, I believe most celebrities who do endorsements sign contracts that have built in indemnity clauses in them which state that while the person may endorse the product, he or she does not represent any claims made by the product manufacturer. This is fairly common in endorsement deals and is meant to protect the endorser from liability. I can’t think of a case off the top of my head where an endorser has been found guilty of fraud for endorsing a fraudulent product. Although someone with more direct knowledge of such a case may know of one.

]]> By: Harold http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/comment-page-2/#comment-120537 Harold Wed, 24 Sep 2008 00:48:58 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/#comment-120537 Celtic_Evolution, to be honest, I don't think any one comment here set me off, though I had the same visceral reaction to what Max Fagin said as you, and that got the train of thought rolling. In a large part it was that damned illustration in <i>Skeptical Inquirer</i>, which came out shortly before a series of people around me began to be diagnosed with cancer. As soon as I began reading this entry I started getting mental pop-ups from the SI article. Considering that that article appeared ten years ago, you can tell how much of an impression it left, and how deeply the image burned. Celtic_Evolution, to be honest, I don’t think any one comment here set me off, though I had the same visceral reaction to what Max Fagin said as you, and that got the train of thought rolling. In a large part it was that damned illustration in Skeptical Inquirer, which came out shortly before a series of people around me began to be diagnosed with cancer. As soon as I began reading this entry I started getting mental pop-ups from the SI article. Considering that that article appeared ten years ago, you can tell how much of an impression it left, and how deeply the image burned.

]]> By: Michael L http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/comment-page-2/#comment-120511 Michael L Tue, 23 Sep 2008 22:23:35 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/#comment-120511 Thanks for the info, Celtic. One question though, that hasn't been answered as far as I can see. Would a celebrity who endorses a fraudulent individual and his product be complicit. For example, Hugh Downs endorsing Kevin Trudeau? Thanks for the info, Celtic. One question though, that hasn’t been answered as far as I can see. Would a celebrity who endorses a fraudulent individual and his product be complicit. For example, Hugh Downs endorsing Kevin Trudeau?

]]> By: Celtic_Evolution http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/comment-page-2/#comment-120353 Celtic_Evolution Tue, 23 Sep 2008 12:59:38 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/#comment-120353 <i>If you’ve never had cancer, never known someone with cancer - well, good for you. I’m jealous. But, please, while we’re lashing out at the scumbags who peddle these snake oil cures to the desperately ill, please show a little compassion towards the desperately ill victims of their scams.</i> Harold... I certainly agree with this statement, as do i think most of us here... so I'm curious as to what prompted you to feel the need to write it. Reviewing both the original post and the comments that followed, I see most of the vitriol being directed at the "scumbags who peddle these snake oil cures"... I'm not really seeing a lack of compassion for the victims' conditions, per se. We've been arguing Max's "buyer beware... in ALL cases" stance, but I'm not sure that's necessarily showing a lack of compassion for the victims' illnesses. So, did I miss something that prompted this concern? If so, I apologize. If you’ve never had cancer, never known someone with cancer – well, good for you. I’m jealous. But, please, while we’re lashing out at the scumbags who peddle these snake oil cures to the desperately ill, please show a little compassion towards the desperately ill victims of their scams.

Harold… I certainly agree with this statement, as do i think most of us here… so I’m curious as to what prompted you to feel the need to write it. Reviewing both the original post and the comments that followed, I see most of the vitriol being directed at the “scumbags who peddle these snake oil cures”… I’m not really seeing a lack of compassion for the victims’ conditions, per se. We’ve been arguing Max’s “buyer beware… in ALL cases” stance, but I’m not sure that’s necessarily showing a lack of compassion for the victims’ illnesses.

So, did I miss something that prompted this concern? If so, I apologize.

]]> By: Peter B http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/comment-page-2/#comment-120348 Peter B Tue, 23 Sep 2008 12:23:56 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/#comment-120348 Max Fagin said: "You don’t have to be an expert in 127 (bleeping) disciplines to survive. Just learn good critical thinking skills, and know your sources. You probably aren’t a doctor, but you didn’t need to consult the FDA to figure out that homeopathy is bogus. You probably aren’t astronomer, but you didn’t need to consult the NSO to figure out that astrological medicine doesn’t work." Yes, it might be obvious that astrological medicine won't work, but what about that packet of headache tablets you bought? If they're the real thing, they'll relieve your headache, but how can you know they're the real thing? If you're going to test things for genuineness, the only practical solution is to band together with a group of like-minded people and share research. But, as I'm sure you've realised, the effect is much the same as having a regulator. So why not simplify the situation, and have a regulator who is legislated to act in the best interests of the consumer? Max Fagin said: “You don’t have to be an expert in 127 (bleeping) disciplines to survive. Just learn good critical thinking skills, and know your sources. You probably aren’t a doctor, but you didn’t need to consult the FDA to figure out that homeopathy is bogus. You probably aren’t astronomer, but you didn’t need to consult the NSO to figure out that astrological medicine doesn’t work.”

Yes, it might be obvious that astrological medicine won’t work, but what about that packet of headache tablets you bought? If they’re the real thing, they’ll relieve your headache, but how can you know they’re the real thing?

If you’re going to test things for genuineness, the only practical solution is to band together with a group of like-minded people and share research. But, as I’m sure you’ve realised, the effect is much the same as having a regulator. So why not simplify the situation, and have a regulator who is legislated to act in the best interests of the consumer?

]]> By: kebsis http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/comment-page-2/#comment-120339 kebsis Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:13:36 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/#comment-120339 @madge: In the US, all 'psychic hotline' commercials come with a 'for entertainment purposes only' disclaimer at the bottom of the screen. Interestingly, I haven't seen a commercial for one of those things in years. I dunno if there's been some change in the law or FCC rules or if they simply don't make money anymore....either way, it's for the better obviously. @madge: In the US, all ‘psychic hotline’ commercials come with a ‘for entertainment purposes only’ disclaimer at the bottom of the screen. Interestingly, I haven’t seen a commercial for one of those things in years. I dunno if there’s been some change in the law or FCC rules or if they simply don’t make money anymore….either way, it’s for the better obviously.

]]> By: Troy http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/comment-page-2/#comment-120312 Troy Tue, 23 Sep 2008 04:50:44 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/#comment-120312 It seems the FTC is chasing the wind. For example Kevin Trudeau is still on and making money scamming people. He was convicted of fraud but is allowed to hawk books because it is a first ammendment issue. Yes the enzyte guy got a lot of prison time. But smilin' Bob didn't go anywhere and enzyte is still available. They change the ad a bit and it is still on. I'd like to coin a new word it is called the trudeau (you want the trudeau? You can't handle the trudeau!). It is something that is true enough to keep you on television (and out of prision) but is just the same old snake oil. It seems the FTC is chasing the wind. For example Kevin Trudeau is still on and making money scamming people. He was convicted of fraud but is allowed to hawk books because it is a first ammendment issue. Yes the enzyte guy got a lot of prison time. But smilin’ Bob didn’t go anywhere and enzyte is still available. They change the ad a bit and it is still on. I’d like to coin a new word it is called the trudeau (you want the trudeau? You can’t handle the trudeau!). It is something that is true enough to keep you on television (and out of prision) but is just the same old snake oil.

]]> By: Quiet Desperation http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/comment-page-2/#comment-120292 Quiet Desperation Tue, 23 Sep 2008 02:46:37 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/#comment-120292 <i>Max: But just because something is immoral does not mean it should be illegal.</i> I would agree with that. I understand where you're coming from, Max, but we'll just have to disagree on this *particular* case. Max: But just because something is immoral does not mean it should be illegal.

I would agree with that. I understand where you’re coming from, Max, but we’ll just have to disagree on this *particular* case.

]]> By: Harold http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/comment-page-2/#comment-120287 Harold Tue, 23 Sep 2008 02:13:17 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/#comment-120287 One of the things that led to my decision not to renew my subscription to the <i>Skeptical Inquirer</i> was an illustration in an article on the Snake Oil cancer "cure" called Essiac (<i>Skeptical Inquirer</i>,Volume 22, Number 4, July/August 1998.) While the article was quite worthwhile, the illustration was blatantly offensive: A fish-faced person, possibly a woman, goggle-eyes blank with gullibility, crosses her fingers as she downs - capsules? a spoonful? I forget - of Essiac. This fit in well with what I had gradually perceived as the <i>"FOOLS! YOU'RE ALL FOOLS!"</i> tone of the magazine. But bear this in mind: <i>the person in the illustration was someone dying of cancer.</i> What is worse, taking advantage of the desperation of a person facing a painful, debilitating, and ultimately fatal disease, or ridiculing that same person for in their desperation grasping at any hope of a cure they might see within reach? Well, naturally, the first. But the second is pretty bad, too. If you've never had cancer, never known someone with cancer - well, good for you. I'm jealous. But, please, while we're lashing out at the scumbags who peddle these snake oil cures to the desperately ill, please show a little compassion towards the desperately ill victims of their scams. One of the things that led to my decision not to renew my subscription to the Skeptical Inquirer was an illustration in an article on the Snake Oil cancer “cure” called Essiac (Skeptical Inquirer,Volume 22, Number 4, July/August 1998.) While the article was quite worthwhile, the illustration was blatantly offensive: A fish-faced person, possibly a woman, goggle-eyes blank with gullibility, crosses her fingers as she downs – capsules? a spoonful? I forget – of Essiac. This fit in well with what I had gradually perceived as the “FOOLS! YOU’RE ALL FOOLS!” tone of the magazine. But bear this in mind: the person in the illustration was someone dying of cancer. What is worse, taking advantage of the desperation of a person facing a painful, debilitating, and ultimately fatal disease, or ridiculing that same person for in their desperation grasping at any hope of a cure they might see within reach? Well, naturally, the first. But the second is pretty bad, too.

If you’ve never had cancer, never known someone with cancer – well, good for you. I’m jealous. But, please, while we’re lashing out at the scumbags who peddle these snake oil cures to the desperately ill, please show a little compassion towards the desperately ill victims of their scams.

]]> By: stopgap http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/comment-page-2/#comment-120251 stopgap Tue, 23 Sep 2008 00:00:31 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/#comment-120251 "That’s the kind of piffle that drove me away from the Libertarian Party: this idea that we are all alone in this world and have to become a (bleeping) expert in 127 different disciplines to survive." No, the basic Libertarian principle that underlines the ideology is to be against all forms of force or fraud. Nice try, but you fail. “That’s the kind of piffle that drove me away from the Libertarian Party: this idea that we are all alone in this world and have to become a (bleeping) expert in 127 different disciplines to survive.”

No, the basic Libertarian principle that underlines the ideology is to be against all forms of force or fraud. Nice try, but you fail.

]]> By: Grand Lunar http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/comment-page-2/#comment-120238 Grand Lunar Mon, 22 Sep 2008 22:51:53 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/#comment-120238 Surprise, surprise! Quacks and frauds revealed! I wondered about Enzyte. Been a while since I've seen any ads for it. Glad it's over now; that "Smiling Bob" guy was just too weird. Surprise, surprise! Quacks and frauds revealed!

I wondered about Enzyte. Been a while since I’ve seen any ads for it. Glad it’s over now; that “Smiling Bob” guy was just too weird.

]]> By: Crux Australis http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/comment-page-2/#comment-120227 Crux Australis Mon, 22 Sep 2008 21:41:48 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/#comment-120227 Thanks Davidlpf. That explains why it's blocked here. I figured it was some kind of "date drug". Thanks Davidlpf. That explains why it’s blocked here. I figured it was some kind of “date drug”.

]]> By: Crux Australis http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/comment-page-1/#comment-120225 Crux Australis Mon, 22 Sep 2008 21:40:16 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/#comment-120225 I've heard Trudeau's "Mega Memory" system. It's good, and it works, but I've since come across a book saying essentially the same things (even the exact same mnemonics) printed years before his system was published. He never mentioned anything about the previously written book. It was all "We've developed" and "We've discovered". My respect for him diminished after finding the book. I’ve heard Trudeau’s “Mega Memory” system. It’s good, and it works, but I’ve since come across a book saying essentially the same things (even the exact same mnemonics) printed years before his system was published. He never mentioned anything about the previously written book. It was all “We’ve developed” and “We’ve discovered”. My respect for him diminished after finding the book.

]]> By: Davidlpf http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/comment-page-1/#comment-120224 Davidlpf Mon, 22 Sep 2008 21:37:57 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/#comment-120224 @Crux australis Enzyte suppose to embiggen a certain male part, the commercials I normally see have a guy named bob with the stupidest grin on his face. @Crux australis Enzyte suppose to embiggen a certain male part, the commercials I normally see have a guy named bob with the stupidest grin on his face.

]]> By: IBY http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/comment-page-1/#comment-120220 IBY Mon, 22 Sep 2008 21:34:12 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/#comment-120220 God, I have always hated that Trudeau commercial. Everytime he opened his mouth, I wanted to punch him, as to not spread the contagious idiocy he spouts all the time. When are they going to ban HIM? I mean, you can't consider free speech on what he spouts if everything he says are fraud under the guise of "real." Not only that, doesn't he intentionally know what he is selling is, I don't know... questionable? God, I have always hated that Trudeau commercial. Everytime he opened his mouth, I wanted to punch him, as to not spread the contagious idiocy he spouts all the time. When are they going to ban HIM? I mean, you can’t consider free speech on what he spouts if everything he says are fraud under the guise of “real.” Not only that, doesn’t he intentionally know what he is selling is, I don’t know… questionable?

]]> By: Law Mom http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/comment-page-1/#comment-120218 Law Mom Mon, 22 Sep 2008 21:28:30 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/#comment-120218 Detrimental reliance is most definitely a key element of fraud, but there is no requirement that money change hands. Any kind of reliance will do. Foregoing real medical treatment and getting sicker would be sufficient. By the way, I have yet to see a civil claim for fraud, or intentional misrepresentation, that was not accompanied by a cause of action for negligent misrepresentation, which would place a "should have known" standard on the snake oil saleman. Alleged snake oil salesman. Detrimental reliance is most definitely a key element of fraud, but there is no requirement that money change hands. Any kind of reliance will do. Foregoing real medical treatment and getting sicker would be sufficient. By the way, I have yet to see a civil claim for fraud, or intentional misrepresentation, that was not accompanied by a cause of action for negligent misrepresentation, which would place a “should have known” standard on the snake oil saleman. Alleged snake oil salesman.

]]> By: Crux Australis http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/comment-page-1/#comment-120215 Crux Australis Mon, 22 Sep 2008 21:22:40 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/#comment-120215 OK fine. I'll look it up when I get home. Should I do it when my wife's asleep? OK fine. I’ll look it up when I get home. Should I do it when my wife’s asleep?

]]> By: Crux Australis http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/comment-page-1/#comment-120213 Crux Australis Mon, 22 Sep 2008 21:22:11 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/#comment-120213 Huh? I honestly don't get it! Huh? I honestly don’t get it!

]]> By: Celtic_Evolution http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/comment-page-1/#comment-120210 Celtic_Evolution Mon, 22 Sep 2008 21:15:24 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/#comment-120210 @ Crux Australis - Oh, you're not getting me to fall for THAT one... ;) @ Crux Australis –

Oh, you’re not getting me to fall for THAT one… ;)

]]> By: Crux Australis http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/comment-page-1/#comment-120209 Crux Australis Mon, 22 Sep 2008 21:13:09 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/#comment-120209 Sorry to be the ignunt fool in this thread, folks, but I'm from New Zealand. What's Enzyte? Website''s blocked at work due to pornographic content, so I guess it's nsfw anyway; just trying to keep up with the conversation. Sorry to be the ignunt fool in this thread, folks, but I’m from New Zealand. What’s Enzyte? Website”s blocked at work due to pornographic content, so I guess it’s nsfw anyway; just trying to keep up with the conversation.

]]> By: Todd W. http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/comment-page-1/#comment-120198 Todd W. Mon, 22 Sep 2008 20:38:45 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/#comment-120198 @khms My guess is that the 25 years is for multiple counts. @khms

My guess is that the 25 years is for multiple counts.

]]> By: khms http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/comment-page-1/#comment-120196 khms Mon, 22 Sep 2008 20:35:43 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/#comment-120196 1. Working on truth in advertising: good! 2. Fraud means go to jail: good! 3. 25 Years for fraud?! Does that include a manslaughter charge? Otherwise it's ridiculously high. 4. Jokes about prison rape? Very unfunny. Very uncool. Prison rape is exactly as much a crime as non-prison rape. In fact, if you take a way people's freedom - thus trwating them like children - then you (that is, in this case, the government) automatically assume the responsibilities of a parent. Letting your children rape each other ... the responsible people (from wardens on up through at least the whole prison administration) really should go to jail for that. Sending people to prison is not supposed to result in torture. 1. Working on truth in advertising: good!

2. Fraud means go to jail: good!

3. 25 Years for fraud?! Does that include a manslaughter charge? Otherwise it’s ridiculously high.

4. Jokes about prison rape? Very unfunny. Very uncool. Prison rape is exactly as much a crime as non-prison rape.

In fact, if you take a way people’s freedom – thus trwating them like children – then you (that is, in this case, the government) automatically assume the responsibilities of a parent. Letting your children rape each other … the responsible people (from wardens on up through at least the whole prison administration) really should go to jail for that.

Sending people to prison is not supposed to result in torture.

]]> By: Jadehawk http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/comment-page-1/#comment-120190 Jadehawk Mon, 22 Sep 2008 20:25:40 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/09/22/the-ftc-wakes-up-too/#comment-120190 aah, thanks for the clarification Celtic_Evolution :-) aah, thanks for the clarification Celtic_Evolution :-)

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