Australia still has a long way to go. My friend and überskeptic Richard Saunders sent me this picture he took at a newspaper show:
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As my Jewish Australian friends would say:
Oi!
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Phil Plait, the creator of Bad Astronomy, is an astronomer, lecturer, and author. After ten years working on Hubble Space Telescope and six more working on astronomy education, he struck out on his own as a writer. He has written two books, dozens of magazine articles, and 12 bazillion blog articles. He is a skeptic, and fights misuses of science as well as praising the wonder of real science.
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November 25th, 2008 at 11:22 am
Wait, is it a typo or they really mixed the mighty SCIENCE with a-a-astrology?!?
Oh well… At least it’s not Science/Sylvia Browne
November 25th, 2008 at 11:28 am
Woo is worldwide… /cry
November 25th, 2008 at 11:30 am
¡ıo ¿sıɥʇ ǝʞıl ʞool ɐılɐɹʇsnɐ ʇ,uplnoʍ
(I hope that works. When will we get a “preview” button?”
November 25th, 2008 at 11:39 am
Hmm… at least there is an acknowledgement that they aren’t the same thing? Heh. It could be worse: Science (incl. Astrology) or some such thing!
November 25th, 2008 at 11:53 am
Last time I checked my local book store, shelves labeled ‘Popular Science’ were filled with Kamasutra guides… Well… I suppose it’s science of sorts… And I bet it’s popular.
November 25th, 2008 at 11:53 am
I don’t know what’s worse- the sign itself, or that it’s so ubiquitous in some places that I noticed the Dora the Explorer underneath it first.
November 25th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
That’s a glass half empty look at the situation. Maybe you should look at it from a different point of view. Hopefully an astrology buff will come over looking for a magazine about astrology and pick up a magazine about astronomy. Maybe it will help to increase the exposure to science. I doubt segregating the two would really matter.
November 25th, 2008 at 12:03 pm
Gasp! Poirot next to Dora! You’re right Phil, MAJOR Oi.
November 25th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
Yes, and perhaps we shouldn’t concern ourselves with separating physics from Alchemy. Who knows? Maybe someone searching for a way to convert lead into gold will stumble upon a REAL science book,,,
As I’ve noted before, wooism is universal. I have hope however, that rationalism will continue to grow and prosper, mainly because it generates new toys that even the Woos desire and they have to pay for them by supporting the very Science they claim to abhor.
Sneaky, aren’t we?
GAry 7
November 25th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
Man, that’s awful! Equating Poirot and Dora the Explorer with science! How gauche!
November 25th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
There’s an old saying, about using the carrot and stick approach to get a donkey to move,,,
1) Tie a carrot to a stick and dangle it in front of the donkey,,,
2) If the donkey still refuses to move, whack it smartly between the eyes with the stick. This will get its attention and THEN it will follow the carrot,,,
,,,toys are the carrot,,,a dark ages without science, as in disease, painFUL dentistry, etc is the stick,,,
,,,and then, there’s the monkey with its hand stuck in a jar, because it’s too darn dumb to let go,,,
Metaphorical thinking, anyone???
GAry 7
November 25th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
Uh – excuse me but you seem to be studiously avoiding comment on CU Boulder’s own little irony. The professor of philosophy in physics who is an atheist that believes in ID.
Seems to be somewhat like the conflation of astrology with science. Worse is the fact that it is at an institution renowned for its physics department. I know Bradley Monton isn’t IN the physics department but seems to have co opted the title.
Chris P
November 25th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
Chris, there may not be much the phys dept can do about the guy… it could be worse; Boulder for all its scientific institutions of research and higher learning does have a substantial number of people who do woo quite well…
November 25th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Oh – like the Naropa Institute?
Chris P
November 25th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
*sobs* Newsagents do NOT CARE. The one closest to my college (which I go in to ALL THE TIME to get my bus ticket) has a ’science’ section full of… well, you guessed it. Some of them, even *I* have to look at twice to see what it actually is, and I’m a skeptic! New Dawn next to New Scientist (any magazine that’s willing to put Hoagland on the front cover IS NOT A GOOD MAGAZINE), Atlantis Today (no, seriously) next to the quarterly magazines put out by CSIRO…
…Unfortunately, I’m no longer allowed to stay in that segment after two occasions where I a) hid all the pseudoscience behind other magazines and b) slipped notes in to them telling them to read the science magazines instead because they’re WAY more interesting >.> Oops?
November 25th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
Wouldn’t they say “Oi, mate!”
November 25th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
Learn to algebra.
It’s Science with Astrology modded out: two theories are considered equivalent if their only difference is the position of the planets.
November 25th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
I don’t get it. Is Poirot science and Dora astrology, or is it the other way around?
November 25th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
Naomi,
Your bookstore tactic sounds all too much like the sort of thing Bible-thumpers resort to.
November 25th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
Sili: You can’t mod out by astrology since it isn’t an ideal of science.
November 25th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Last time I looked in my newsagent (and I’m down under in Oz where your picture was taken) Science, with SciAm, New Scientist, Astronomy, Sky and Telescope and the like were on one stand and Astrology across the aisle on another. What was interesting was the the creationist stuff was also in the Astrology section. Possibly I have a more savvy newsagent, but I doubt it. It’s one of a chain and I suspect the layout is determined by head office.
So perhaps all Naomi need do is change to a different newagent chain.
November 25th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
Thank god alchemy’s gone out style. I never have to worry about that when reaching the chemistry section… the tiny, miniscule, three or four book chemistry section.
;_;
November 25th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Oh yeah, I’ll tell you what’s worse: I applied for a job at the norwegian defense research institute a while ago, and they use an online database for storing CVs, which also many other companies use.
Well, I was supposed to fill in my field of study in this database. I had to choose “physics”, because I couldn’t find “astronomy” or “astrophysics” on the list (which is my field obviously).
Astrology, however, was there.
A major headdesk if there ever was one.
November 25th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
Ah! You see! This is what those ‘Christians Against Cartoons’ have warned us about!
Dora carries the vicious double-header of science AND astrology! It’s the devil’s work, I tells ya!
I’ll poke around our local shopping centre and try and find out which chain of newsagents this is, so you can all write nasty letters.
November 25th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
This is probably why I get my magazines by subscription now… I can’t stand having to search through all the cr..rubbish when I’m looking for something new. Worse is when there is no section that says astrology and they are all mixed in with the science. Is this just Australia or is it happening anywhere else?
November 25th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
Its true I’m afraid. In virtually all newsagents here in Australia, the Science section is right next to the Astrology/New Age section. Not sure it matters – everything must be next to something, right? What are they next to in the States? (Nudist mags maybe?)
In Oz, typically the New Age section is on one side, and Archaeology on the other – and Creation magazine, if its stocked, is in the Science section. Oi indeed!
November 25th, 2008 at 5:49 pm
I’m taking a “glass half-full” approach. I read it as Science slash Astrology. A very satisfying thought.
November 25th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
Here in the Los Angeles area, I have seen science mags next to mens mags! And astrology next to womens mags.
Sexism, obviously. But also anti-science, since biologists have noted that possession of double x chromosomes doesn’t make one stupid, and a y chromosome doesn’t make one better at science.
In a different post, the BA speculated about intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. I wonder if there’s any intelligent life here on Earth…
November 25th, 2008 at 6:10 pm
Yes. This.
Here where I live in Australia, every newsagent is the same. They bundle science with the fringe. Very annoying. (That said, when thumbing through some of the new astronomy mags I’ll occasionally pick up one of the pseudoscience ones just for laughs. They ARE funny, at the very least – though not intentionally).
On a slightly related topic, (and I’ll give store names/locations for those of you playing along at home) – I went into the Angus & Robertson bookstore in Brisbane city (the one just down from Anzac Square) a few weeks ago after finishing my university exams. To find the science books, I had to go to the very back of the store where they were crammed onto half of a small shelf. After seeing that they had nothing new (most of the book shops generally seem to have the same science books), I had a snoop around the rest of the shop. At the front they had an entire bookshelf devoted to astrology, crystals and other new age garbage.
Blagh.
But like others have said, I guess it’s just a case of “they just don’t care”. Peope do actually buy that garbage, and it’s got to go somewhere. Hopefully there have been occasions where someone looking for an antiscience magazine has accidently picked up one of the good ones and ’seen the light’. Though I guess that could work both ways.
November 25th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
What is Dora doing in there? She should be in the Technical Engineering section!
Oh btw, if you want to see some Australian Science, head to http://www.youngausskeptics.com!!
November 25th, 2008 at 7:00 pm
Common in australia. Hard to envision why this is “annoying” as typically, I’d be less comfortable having pornography next to science. Nobody here thinks that the two words are equivalent. Even if they did, it’d be a one way mistake and having new age fans accidentally picking up genuine science wouldn’t exactly be the end of the world. It’d be a good thing.
November 25th, 2008 at 10:10 pm
@Chris Owen – I can almost see that Angus & Robertson from my office window.
November 26th, 2008 at 1:12 am
That is kind of bizarre.
But as RIch ssaid, it wouldn’t hurt for some new age fan, accidentally picking up some real science content once in a while.
November 26th, 2008 at 1:53 am
Just because someone believes in science need not mean that he/she is anti-science. When Chandrayaan-1 was place in the orbit around moon, several pictures were appearing in the newspaper of priests in the temple praying and worshiping the gods for success of the science mission. The priest would be a complete believer in creationism and astrology but he also prays for the success of science. Isn’t that great as against scientist how keep ridiculing other beliefs…Orthodox belief and modern science can co-exist and need not be at the cost of each other.
Scientists have a long way to go before they can understand that both science and astrology have a place and can exist harmoniously.
November 26th, 2008 at 6:19 am
Bad yes.
But well its least its not as bad as a newspaper account I once saw crediting * astrologers * with discovering a new pulsar!
BTW. Don’t know why the BA has the notion that Australians are jewish -we’re actually a very multicultural and secular society with more Muslims, Christians and others than Jews. As elsewhere in most of the Western world the Jews are a small minority albeit one with their usual vastly disproportionate wealth and influence. (Jews compose less than 5 % of the population of Oz, the US, Uk etc ..and yet they have so ridiculously much media control and political clout esp. regarding the continuing Israeli ocuupation and persecution of the Palestineans. A whole other story there anyway ..and off-track.)
November 26th, 2008 at 7:56 am
StevoR,
Phil doesn’t say that Australians are Jewish. He says that his Jewish Australian friends would say “Oi!”
November 26th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
I mentioned this a few times in your blog a few months or maybe a year ago, but my comments about the problem of astrology being so pervasive in out society, and being confused with real science in Australia were largely waved away by some posters, as insignificant.
I am glad to see this photo. It highlights what I was referring to. I am not trying to ‘big up’ the fact that I ‘told you so’, but I do feel slightly vindicated to see it presented by someone such as Richard Saunders, whom I do respect. Great post.
November 26th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
Im an aussie, and was down the shops yesterday aftering seeing this.
The science was next to astology but it was all under general interest.
Was in a book shop as well and New Age was under Non-Fiction.
November 26th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
LOL Grinspoon. When I go and buy my computer mags, or my astronomy mags, right next to it is always …. Nexus Magazine, and its ilk. I read that magazine a few times and really think it needs to be in the comedy section, ok jks, the new age section. Last time I read it ( a few years back ) was when a mate urged me to read an article on perpetual energy machines. He was trying desperately to convince me these machines were coming out in a year or so, because Nexus magazine was a .. science magazine. :/
Anyone that is not familiar with Nexus, its a new age magazine promoting anti-science but disguising itself as real science. I have to be careful when I dismiss it in front of certain people I know as they are so dogmatic about the claims they make as being ‘thoroughly scientific’. Some people get real defensive when you point out its anti-scientific nature. The same sort of people, I find, think the so called science on ‘Ghost Hunters’ is flawless. :/ When I watch that show all I think of is … a bunch of magic tricks, not unlike Chris Angel or other magicians. Whoa, digression.
November 26th, 2008 at 5:10 pm
Why wouldn’t New Age be under non-fiction? It’s written as non-fiction, and those who take it seriously read is as such. People from our school of thought may not think highly of it, and it may be literally inaccurate, but it’s not fiction.
November 26th, 2008 at 9:14 pm
More sciencey stuff. Well.. kinda sorta semi=sciency in a looney tunes kinda way.. maybe.
see more pwn and owned pictures
November 27th, 2008 at 9:48 am
Just because something is espoused as non fiction doesn’t mean it isn’t fiction. In fact, if some writing is highly inaccurate, that would be a good definition of FICTION,,,
GAry 7
November 27th, 2008 at 1:17 pm
“Just because something is espoused as non fiction doesn’t mean it isn’t fiction. In fact, if some writing is highly inaccurate, that would be a good definition of FICTION”
That’s a load of crap. There’s very sincere stuff in refereed scientific journals often enough that turns out to be literally incorrect. Are these journals then publishers of fiction?
November 27th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
So The Secret was rightfully classified as non fiction?
It was Angus & Robinson. I’m looking at the New Age section on their site.
The Secret.. enough said..
How about this one?
Book of Answers – Just hold this powrful, one-of-a-kind book closed in your hands and concentrate on your question for a few seconds. Then open it at random and find the answer!
Amazing Power of Deliberate Intent: Living the Art of Allowing
Crystal Bible: The Definitive Guide to Every Crystal under the Sun – The directory covers the practical and esoteric properties of each crystal, including spiritual, mental, psychological, emotional and physical effects, plus its use in crystal healing.
Angel Therapy: Healing Messages for Every Area of Your Life
Transit of Saturn – Explains & defines growth patterns & hidden purposes in light of a total person as Saturn transits the zodiac to aspect its natal placement. The Saturn cycle includes ego projection, struggle, action, analysis, perfection, distribution, reorientation & mutation into the next cycle. Highlights ways to successfully use periods effectively & efficiently.
To name a few i quickly found on there. I understand some people can find some value in the self help aspects of these books, however to have some of this crap classified as non-fiction is a joke. Just label it New Age and be done, don’t try and pass it off as “Non Fiction” next to the science books.
November 27th, 2008 at 5:33 pm
I’m not talking about willful lies, or even whether or not people such as you and I would buy into it. I’m talking about literature which both the authors and the readers accept as realistic. Just because *you* think it’s garbage doesn’t make it fiction. The Mayans believed that human sacrifice was fuel for the continued good health of the Cosmos. You and I think that’s more than a little bit dumb. Was the Mayan religion fiction? No, it wasn’t. It was just incorrect.
And really, not all of the so-called science books in the science-section are what I’d call scientific. Many are no more than opportunities to cash in on the public’s naivete’.
November 28th, 2008 at 8:10 am
I just read it as “This rack contains publications about Science, and also contains publications about Astrology.”
If anything, it’s only irritating in the sense that there aren’t enough Science publications at that location to warrant a complete rack of their own.