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	<title>Comments on: Chemical romance</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/03/chemical-romance/</link>
	<description>I am an astronomer, writer, and skeptic. I likes reality the way it is, and I aims to keep it that way. My real name is Phil Plait, and I run the Bad Astronomy blog.</description>
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		<title>By: philr</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/03/chemical-romance/comment-page-2/#comment-210896</link>
		<dc:creator>philr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Sep 2009 14:07:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/03/chemical-romance/#comment-210896</guid>
		<description>On telling my ever-so naturally-aware mother-in-law about Neville Reed&#039;s challenge her reaction was along the lines of &quot;that just shows you how bad the situation is - these chemicals are EVERYWHERE now!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On telling my ever-so naturally-aware mother-in-law about Neville Reed&#8217;s challenge her reaction was along the lines of &#8220;that just shows you how bad the situation is &#8211; these chemicals are EVERYWHERE now!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Someone</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/03/chemical-romance/comment-page-2/#comment-140563</link>
		<dc:creator>Someone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Dec 2008 18:51:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/03/chemical-romance/#comment-140563</guid>
		<description>Phil, I really like your website. But beating up people for using the word &quot;chemical&quot; to mean &quot;an artificial substance&quot; is, for someone who claims to want to promote science, at the very least counterproductive. The word is commonly used to mean &quot;an artificial substance&quot;, as you well know, and the people reading these advertisements understand it to mean that.

If someone automatically associates &quot;chemical-free&quot; with &quot;better product&quot;, then yes, that demonstrates a lack of critical thinking on their part. But the use of the word &quot;chemical&quot; in the advertisements is not the problem there, is it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil, I really like your website. But beating up people for using the word &#8220;chemical&#8221; to mean &#8220;an artificial substance&#8221; is, for someone who claims to want to promote science, at the very least counterproductive. The word is commonly used to mean &#8220;an artificial substance&#8221;, as you well know, and the people reading these advertisements understand it to mean that.</p>
<p>If someone automatically associates &#8220;chemical-free&#8221; with &#8220;better product&#8221;, then yes, that demonstrates a lack of critical thinking on their part. But the use of the word &#8220;chemical&#8221; in the advertisements is not the problem there, is it?</p>
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		<title>By: Nigel Depledge</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/03/chemical-romance/comment-page-2/#comment-139876</link>
		<dc:creator>Nigel Depledge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:36:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/03/chemical-romance/#comment-139876</guid>
		<description>Just to join in the fun (I haven&#039;t read through all the comments, so apologies if someone else came up with thisbefore):

Ricin is a natural organic substance.

It&#039;s also (IIUC) the most toxic substance known.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to join in the fun (I haven&#8217;t read through all the comments, so apologies if someone else came up with thisbefore):</p>
<p>Ricin is a natural organic substance.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also (IIUC) the most toxic substance known.</p>
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		<title>By: Bad Reader Eric</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/03/chemical-romance/comment-page-2/#comment-139120</link>
		<dc:creator>Bad Reader Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Dec 2008 03:12:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/03/chemical-romance/#comment-139120</guid>
		<description>This is like a product that I saw on the shelves of the grocery store where I work.

Sugar from a company called Florida Crystals.

They have a graphic on their bag which says:

NOW CERTIFIED 100% CARBON FREE

Now anyone who&#039;s taken high school knows that sucrose has TWELVE CARBON ATOMS in it (C12H22O11).  Without the carbon, you&#039;d get 11 atoms of water.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is like a product that I saw on the shelves of the grocery store where I work.</p>
<p>Sugar from a company called Florida Crystals.</p>
<p>They have a graphic on their bag which says:</p>
<p>NOW CERTIFIED 100% CARBON FREE</p>
<p>Now anyone who&#8217;s taken high school knows that sucrose has TWELVE CARBON ATOMS in it (C12H22O11).  Without the carbon, you&#8217;d get 11 atoms of water.</p>
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		<title>By: Todd W.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/03/chemical-romance/comment-page-2/#comment-139045</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 20:36:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/03/chemical-romance/#comment-139045</guid>
		<description>The FDA and FTC have no formal regulations on &quot;natural&quot;, &quot;organic&quot; or &quot;chemical-free&quot; labeling on food and other products, but the USDA has tried to define &quot;organic&quot; in the context of food products.  Their summary document on organic labeling can be found at http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELDEV3004446&amp;acct=nopgeninfo

While still a bit iffy, I think that is a step in the right direction.  Giving some sort of context or legal definition, even if it does twist away from the scientific definition, is better than nothing.  The problem comes when the average consumer knows nothing about what that legal definition is (let alone the scientific one).  Too many people see &quot;natural&quot;, &quot;organic&quot; and &quot;chemical-free&quot; and think that means the product is &quot;healthy&quot;, when all it really means is that it was not processed using artificial flavoring/coloring, ionizing radiation, sewage sludge (from the USDA document), or chemically-derived products/processes (I&#039;m assuming they mean human-controlled chemical processes, rather than naturally occurring ones).

Let&#039;s say there is a soda that is made completely from &quot;organic&quot; or &quot;natural&quot; ingredients.  The consumer who subscribes to the &quot;organic = healthy&quot; idea would think that this soda is somehow inherently healthy, or at least healthier than non-organic sodas, despite the fact that it may have more calories than the &quot;unhealthy&quot; soda.  Likewise, an &quot;organic&quot; food product may have more cholesterol than its non-&quot;organic&quot; counterpart.

While I agree that language changes, and definitions are only descriptions of how words are used, this &quot;natural&quot;, &quot;organic&quot; and &quot;chemical-free&quot; garbage muddies the waters and leads to dishonest marketing practices, not to mention vilifying scientific advances, such as preservatives that prevent spoilage.  The preservative itself may or may not have some effect that only appears after chronic exposure.  So, we don&#039;t know with 100% certainty that such a product is safe or unsafe, until something happens and is linked to it.  Spoilage, on the other hand, we do know causes illnesses (sometimes severe).  On balance, then, the preservative-containing foods are better than the &quot;organic&quot; products, at least for products that are kept for an extended period of time.

Then again, as has been pointed out, even &quot;organic&quot; foods use pesticides and other products that are occasionally more poisonous or harmful than the non-&quot;organic&quot; alternative.

I guess the point I&#039;m trying to make is, those terms are merely marketing gimmicks, as others have mentioned, and for all intents and purposes are devoid of any real meaning, as far as the end consumer is concerned.

Sorry for rambling on so long, but thanks for reading if you got through it all. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The FDA and FTC have no formal regulations on &#8220;natural&#8221;, &#8220;organic&#8221; or &#8220;chemical-free&#8221; labeling on food and other products, but the USDA has tried to define &#8220;organic&#8221; in the context of food products.  Their summary document on organic labeling can be found at <a href="http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELDEV3004446&#038;acct=nopgeninfo" rel="nofollow">http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELDEV3004446&#038;acct=nopgeninfo</a></p>
<p>While still a bit iffy, I think that is a step in the right direction.  Giving some sort of context or legal definition, even if it does twist away from the scientific definition, is better than nothing.  The problem comes when the average consumer knows nothing about what that legal definition is (let alone the scientific one).  Too many people see &#8220;natural&#8221;, &#8220;organic&#8221; and &#8220;chemical-free&#8221; and think that means the product is &#8220;healthy&#8221;, when all it really means is that it was not processed using artificial flavoring/coloring, ionizing radiation, sewage sludge (from the USDA document), or chemically-derived products/processes (I&#8217;m assuming they mean human-controlled chemical processes, rather than naturally occurring ones).</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s say there is a soda that is made completely from &#8220;organic&#8221; or &#8220;natural&#8221; ingredients.  The consumer who subscribes to the &#8220;organic = healthy&#8221; idea would think that this soda is somehow inherently healthy, or at least healthier than non-organic sodas, despite the fact that it may have more calories than the &#8220;unhealthy&#8221; soda.  Likewise, an &#8220;organic&#8221; food product may have more cholesterol than its non-&#8221;organic&#8221; counterpart.</p>
<p>While I agree that language changes, and definitions are only descriptions of how words are used, this &#8220;natural&#8221;, &#8220;organic&#8221; and &#8220;chemical-free&#8221; garbage muddies the waters and leads to dishonest marketing practices, not to mention vilifying scientific advances, such as preservatives that prevent spoilage.  The preservative itself may or may not have some effect that only appears after chronic exposure.  So, we don&#8217;t know with 100% certainty that such a product is safe or unsafe, until something happens and is linked to it.  Spoilage, on the other hand, we do know causes illnesses (sometimes severe).  On balance, then, the preservative-containing foods are better than the &#8220;organic&#8221; products, at least for products that are kept for an extended period of time.</p>
<p>Then again, as has been pointed out, even &#8220;organic&#8221; foods use pesticides and other products that are occasionally more poisonous or harmful than the non-&#8221;organic&#8221; alternative.</p>
<p>I guess the point I&#8217;m trying to make is, those terms are merely marketing gimmicks, as others have mentioned, and for all intents and purposes are devoid of any real meaning, as far as the end consumer is concerned.</p>
<p>Sorry for rambling on so long, but thanks for reading if you got through it all. <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: whb03</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/03/chemical-romance/comment-page-2/#comment-139035</link>
		<dc:creator>whb03</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 19:46:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/03/chemical-romance/#comment-139035</guid>
		<description>While some people above (RawheaD, jick) make some good points about &quot;chemicals&quot; in food being potentially (and even provenly) dangerous, I don&#039;t think Phil or anyone else here is arguing against that point.  I believe the point is: the words &quot;natural&quot; and &quot;organic&quot; have been used as a marketing gimmick, the word &quot;chemical&quot; has been bastardized, and the results are a bunch of lemmings running around claiming that anything &quot;natural&quot; or &quot;organic&quot; is good while anything &quot;chemical&quot; is evil and deadly.  I think that while well-intentioned, you guys are splitting hairs here, not Phil.  And while Phil&#039;s argument may not be exactly air tight symantically, I completely agree with his sentiment: the word &quot;natural&quot; has been abused as a marketing tool to steer people into &quot;organic&quot; food chains - for $$$$, regardless of how &quot;organic&quot; they really are (and I am not educated on the subject, but skeptical and paranoid enough to beleive in at least the possibility that a good percentage (at least) of said &quot;organic&quot; products are fraud, based on the money and abuse of language involved).  I too am sick and tired of de stoopid, and &quot;natural&quot; &quot;organic&quot; &quot;chemical-free&quot; foods are (generally speaking) targeted towards de stoopid [not talking about you guys, you are obviously more educated and informed than said destoopid].

Arg, de stoopid.  It hurts.  And it tastes like chemicals.  Hehehe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While some people above (RawheaD, jick) make some good points about &#8220;chemicals&#8221; in food being potentially (and even provenly) dangerous, I don&#8217;t think Phil or anyone else here is arguing against that point.  I believe the point is: the words &#8220;natural&#8221; and &#8220;organic&#8221; have been used as a marketing gimmick, the word &#8220;chemical&#8221; has been bastardized, and the results are a bunch of lemmings running around claiming that anything &#8220;natural&#8221; or &#8220;organic&#8221; is good while anything &#8220;chemical&#8221; is evil and deadly.  I think that while well-intentioned, you guys are splitting hairs here, not Phil.  And while Phil&#8217;s argument may not be exactly air tight symantically, I completely agree with his sentiment: the word &#8220;natural&#8221; has been abused as a marketing tool to steer people into &#8220;organic&#8221; food chains &#8211; for $$$$, regardless of how &#8220;organic&#8221; they really are (and I am not educated on the subject, but skeptical and paranoid enough to beleive in at least the possibility that a good percentage (at least) of said &#8220;organic&#8221; products are fraud, based on the money and abuse of language involved).  I too am sick and tired of de stoopid, and &#8220;natural&#8221; &#8220;organic&#8221; &#8220;chemical-free&#8221; foods are (generally speaking) targeted towards de stoopid [not talking about you guys, you are obviously more educated and informed than said destoopid].</p>
<p>Arg, de stoopid.  It hurts.  And it tastes like chemicals.  Hehehe.</p>
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		<title>By: T.E.L.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/03/chemical-romance/comment-page-2/#comment-139007</link>
		<dc:creator>T.E.L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 17:45:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/03/chemical-romance/#comment-139007</guid>
		<description>Todd,

You are so right. And let&#039;s not forget that lab animals are bred for high physiological consistency (which helps filter out needless confounds), and that in many cases lab animals must be killed in order to get the data. Can&#039;t do mass-spectrometry on brain nuclei when the neuclei are still in the living host!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Todd,</p>
<p>You are so right. And let&#8217;s not forget that lab animals are bred for high physiological consistency (which helps filter out needless confounds), and that in many cases lab animals must be killed in order to get the data. Can&#8217;t do mass-spectrometry on brain nuclei when the neuclei are still in the living host!</p>
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