Comments on: Hubble spies carbon dioxide 600 trillion kilometers away! http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/09/hubble-spies-carbon-dioxide-600-trillion-kilometers-away/ I am an astronomer, writer, and skeptic. I likes reality the way it is, and I aims to keep it that way. My real name is Phil Plait, and I run the Bad Astronomy blog. Sun, 05 Jul 2009 05:53:50 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.1 By: StevoR http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/09/hubble-spies-carbon-dioxide-600-trillion-kilometers-away/#comment-140468 StevoR Fri, 12 Dec 2008 08:26:43 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/09/hubble-spies-carbon-dioxide-600-trillion-kilometers-away/#comment-140468 <b>Bill Nettles wrote on Dec 11th, 2008 at 2:42 pm : <i> ".. I have to try to explain the difference between absolute and apparent magnitude to elementary education majors. That makes me hyperventilate, thus contributing to AGW..." </i> If it's any help here's how I'd explain it in three sentences : Apparent magnitude is how bright a star * seems * in our sky. Absolute Magnitude is how bright a star really is compared with all other stars equally. This is done by putting (in the minds eye) all the stars at the same standard distance of 10 parsces or 32.6 light years. I then usually use a couple of example such as our Sun which seems amazingly bright on Earth where its 8 light minutes away at - 27 apparent magnitude but is actually rather faint in absolute magnitude because at 32.6 ly off it shines at a mere + 4.82 or about as bright as the stars Alpha Sextans (4.6 app. mag) and Alpha (4.4) & Beta Sagittae. (4.4 also) In the southern hemisphere the two pointers to the Southern Cross - Alpha Centauri (Rigil Kent or Toliman) and Beta Centauri (Hadar or Agena) areanother good demonstration : Alpha Centauri is the closest visible star to the Sun at 4.3 light years and seems just a bit brighter than Beta Centauri inour skies. Yet Beta Centauri is about 520 light years away - and thus in reality a far, far brighter star with an absolute magnitude around -6 to - 7! 'Spose its too late now but anyway I hope that helps! Thanks <b> Tom Marking </b> some great examples there & yes I too would love to see more astronomical art featuring those worlds - and have those exoplanetary systems given halfway reasonable names not just forgettable and unpronouncable catalogue numbers! Bill Nettles wrote on Dec 11th, 2008 at 2:42 pm :

“.. I have to try to explain the difference between absolute and apparent magnitude to elementary education majors. That makes me hyperventilate, thus contributing to AGW…”

If it’s any help here’s how I’d explain it in three sentences :

Apparent magnitude is how bright a star * seems * in our sky.

Absolute Magnitude is how bright a star really is compared with all other stars equally.

This is done by putting (in the minds eye) all the stars at the same standard distance of 10 parsces or 32.6 light years.

I then usually use a couple of example such as our Sun which seems amazingly bright on Earth where its 8 light minutes away at - 27 apparent magnitude but is actually rather faint in absolute magnitude because at 32.6 ly off it shines at a mere + 4.82 or about as bright as the stars Alpha Sextans (4.6 app. mag) and Alpha (4.4) & Beta Sagittae. (4.4 also)

In the southern hemisphere the two pointers to the Southern Cross - Alpha Centauri (Rigil Kent or Toliman) and Beta Centauri (Hadar or Agena) areanother good demonstration : Alpha Centauri is the closest visible star to the Sun at 4.3 light years and seems just a bit brighter than Beta Centauri inour skies. Yet Beta Centauri is about 520 light years away - and thus in reality a far, far brighter star with an absolute magnitude around
-6 to - 7!

‘Spose its too late now but anyway I hope that helps!

Thanks Tom Marking some great examples there & yes I too would love to see more astronomical art featuring those worlds - and have those exoplanetary systems given halfway reasonable names not just forgettable and unpronouncable catalogue numbers!

]]> By: Bill Nettles http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/09/hubble-spies-carbon-dioxide-600-trillion-kilometers-away/#comment-140355 Bill Nettles Thu, 11 Dec 2008 21:42:07 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/09/hubble-spies-carbon-dioxide-600-trillion-kilometers-away/#comment-140355 Daniel, I appreciate the encouragement, but I've got bigger problems. I have to try to explain the difference between absolute and apparent magnitude to elementary education majors. That makes me hyperventilate, thus contributing to AGW. And now <a href="http://www.nature.com/news/2008/081209/full/456686a.html" rel="nofollow">the Carbon market has collapsed.</a> Bill Daniel,
I appreciate the encouragement, but I’ve got bigger problems. I have to try to explain the difference between absolute and apparent magnitude to elementary education majors. That makes me hyperventilate, thus contributing to AGW. And now the Carbon market has collapsed.

Bill

]]> By: Tom Marking http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/09/hubble-spies-carbon-dioxide-600-trillion-kilometers-away/#comment-140259 Tom Marking Thu, 11 Dec 2008 18:02:19 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/09/hubble-spies-carbon-dioxide-600-trillion-kilometers-away/#comment-140259 @StevoR "The ‘WooS’ was a site I stumbled over when searching for exoplanet info which seemed, heck, still seems pretty good. Yes they are probably being wa-aay overly optimistic when it comes to the chances of life on “Hoth” - but, hey, we can’t really prove that wrong now can we?" I wonder if the folks at WooS have ever heard of something called the CHZ (Circumstellar Habitable Zone). Hoth doesn't seem to be located inside of it. The following exoplanets are located inside of it for their entire orbit assuming certain values for the albedo and greenhouse temperature increase. I'd like to see some artistic renditions of some of moons of these planets which have a much better chance of containing life than Hoth does: HD 10647b: Semi-major axis = 2.03 AU Eccentricity = 0.16 Periastrion = 1.71 AU Apastrion = 2.35 AU Orbital period = 1,003 days Mass is greater than 0.93 Jupiter masses If albedo = 0.15 and greenhouse temperature increase = 80 deg K then habitable zone goes from 1.49 AU to 2.36 AU HD 134987 b: Semi-major axis = 0.82 AU Eccentricity = 0.224 Periastrion = 0.64 AU Apastrion = 1.00 AU Orbital period = 258 days Mass is greater than 1.61 Jupiter masses If albedo = 0.84 and greenhouse temperature increase = 79 deg K then habitable zone goes from 0.638 AU to 1.01 AU HD 23079b: Semi-major axis = 1.60 AU Eccentricity = 0.102 Periastrion = 1.44 AU Apastrion = 1.76 AU Orbital period = 730.6 days Mass is greater than 2.45 Jupiter masses If albedo = 0.15 and greenhouse temperature increase = 70 deg K then habitable zone goes from 1.14 AU to 1.77 AU HD 28185b: Semi-major axis = 1.03 AU Eccentricity = 0.070 Periastrion = 0.96 AU Apastrion = 1.10 AU Orbital period = 383 days Mass is greater than 5.72 Jupiter masses If albedo = 0.37 and greenhouse temperature increase = 40 deg K then habitable zone goes from 0.776 AU to 1.14 AU HD 188015 b: Semi-major axis = 1.20 AU Eccentricity = 0.137 Periastrion = 1.04 AU Apastrion = 1.36 AU Orbital period = 461 days Mass is greater than 1.50 Jupiter masses If albedo = 0.26 and greenhouse temperature increase = 40 deg K then habitable zone goes from 0.923 AU to 1.36 AU HD 99109b: Semi-major axis = 1.10 AU Eccentricity = 0.09 Periastrion = 1.00 AU Apastrion = 1.20 AU Orbital period = 439 days Mass is greater than 0.502 Jupiter masses If albedo = 0.15 and greenhouse temperature increase = 48 deg K then habitable zone goes from 0.804 AU to 1.20 AU HD 108874 b: Semi-major axis = 1.05 AU Eccentricity = 0.114 Periastrion = 0.93 AU Apastrion = 1.17 AU Orbital period = 394 days Mass is greater than 1.30 Jupiter masses If albedo = 0.37 and greenhouse temperature increase = 40 deg K then habitable zone goes from 0.820 AU to 1.21 AU @StevoR “The ‘WooS’ was a site I stumbled over when searching for exoplanet info which seemed, heck, still seems pretty good. Yes they are probably being wa-aay overly optimistic when it comes to the chances of life on “Hoth” - but, hey, we can’t really prove that wrong now can we?”

I wonder if the folks at WooS have ever heard of something called the CHZ (Circumstellar Habitable Zone). Hoth doesn’t seem to be located inside of it. The following exoplanets are located inside of it for their entire orbit assuming certain values for the albedo and greenhouse temperature increase. I’d like to see some artistic renditions of some of moons of these planets which have a much better chance of containing life than Hoth does:

HD 10647b:
Semi-major axis = 2.03 AU
Eccentricity = 0.16
Periastrion = 1.71 AU
Apastrion = 2.35 AU
Orbital period = 1,003 days
Mass is greater than 0.93 Jupiter masses
If albedo = 0.15 and greenhouse temperature increase = 80 deg K then
habitable zone goes from 1.49 AU to 2.36 AU

HD 134987 b:
Semi-major axis = 0.82 AU
Eccentricity = 0.224
Periastrion = 0.64 AU
Apastrion = 1.00 AU
Orbital period = 258 days
Mass is greater than 1.61 Jupiter masses
If albedo = 0.84 and greenhouse temperature increase = 79 deg K then
habitable zone goes from 0.638 AU to 1.01 AU

HD 23079b:
Semi-major axis = 1.60 AU
Eccentricity = 0.102
Periastrion = 1.44 AU
Apastrion = 1.76 AU
Orbital period = 730.6 days
Mass is greater than 2.45 Jupiter masses
If albedo = 0.15 and greenhouse temperature increase = 70 deg K then
habitable zone goes from 1.14 AU to 1.77 AU

HD 28185b:
Semi-major axis = 1.03 AU
Eccentricity = 0.070
Periastrion = 0.96 AU
Apastrion = 1.10 AU
Orbital period = 383 days
Mass is greater than 5.72 Jupiter masses
If albedo = 0.37 and greenhouse temperature increase = 40 deg K then
habitable zone goes from 0.776 AU to 1.14 AU

HD 188015 b:
Semi-major axis = 1.20 AU
Eccentricity = 0.137
Periastrion = 1.04 AU
Apastrion = 1.36 AU
Orbital period = 461 days
Mass is greater than 1.50 Jupiter masses
If albedo = 0.26 and greenhouse temperature increase = 40 deg K then
habitable zone goes from 0.923 AU to 1.36 AU

HD 99109b:
Semi-major axis = 1.10 AU
Eccentricity = 0.09
Periastrion = 1.00 AU
Apastrion = 1.20 AU
Orbital period = 439 days
Mass is greater than 0.502 Jupiter masses
If albedo = 0.15 and greenhouse temperature increase = 48 deg K then
habitable zone goes from 0.804 AU to 1.20 AU

HD 108874 b:
Semi-major axis = 1.05 AU
Eccentricity = 0.114
Periastrion = 0.93 AU
Apastrion = 1.17 AU
Orbital period = 394 days
Mass is greater than 1.30 Jupiter masses
If albedo = 0.37 and greenhouse temperature increase = 40 deg K then
habitable zone goes from 0.820 AU to 1.21 AU

]]> By: StevoR-Correcting http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/09/hubble-spies-carbon-dioxide-600-trillion-kilometers-away/#comment-140203 StevoR-Correcting Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:28:40 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/09/hubble-spies-carbon-dioxide-600-trillion-kilometers-away/#comment-140203 @ <b>Joker </b> : "Decency" is all the mind of the beholder! ;-) Its like art that way. Correction (sigh) : "On Earth we know of extremophiles and bacteria that can endure staggering amounts of heat, cold, radiation, lack of water, the presence of concentrated acids and alkais, etc .. Below our feet it has been suggested a whole region of 'deep hot biosphere' exists perhaps including silicon based microbes!" <b>Tom Marking's</b> quote was meant to be in italics too .. :-( When is this editing option coming again? Any chance it could speed up & get here! I need it yesterday! ;-) :-( @ Joker :

“Decency” is all the mind of the beholder! ;-)
Its like art that way.

Correction (sigh) :

“On Earth we know of extremophiles and bacteria that can endure staggering amounts of heat, cold, radiation, lack of water, the presence of concentrated acids and alkais, etc .. Below our feet it has been suggested a whole region of ‘deep hot biosphere’ exists perhaps including silicon based microbes!”

Tom Marking’s quote was meant to be in italics too .. :-(

When is this editing option coming again?

Any chance it could speed up & get here! I need it yesterday! ;-) :-(

]]> By: Plutonium being from Pluto http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/09/hubble-spies-carbon-dioxide-600-trillion-kilometers-away/#comment-140202 Plutonium being from Pluto Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:17:55 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/09/hubble-spies-carbon-dioxide-600-trillion-kilometers-away/#comment-140202 Actually there's life on Pluto too! Our species lives around Pluto's core-mantle interface on a thin layer of plutonium that's found in the Plutonian core. Our mantle is like Euopa's (& even Eris'es) in having a subterrerean ocean hidden below an icy crust. Charon's tides keeps our planet nice and geologically active - Nix & hydras' tides not-so much! ;-) Its a pretty cool way to live! ;-) 8) We've been around far longer than your youthful species and are <i> (hate to boast but true) </i> far more advanced than Humanity. When your 'New Horizons' probe flies by you'll see our cities as hollows on the Plutonian surface & then you'll find us out officially. ;-) We've actually got a faster than light wormhole device and lots more techno-goodies which we were going to share with humanity to fix things up for ya a litle - getting your spacecraft to all the planets (Pluto most of all!) was our criteria for you proving yourselves worthy of this aid. :-) But then you had to go & spoil it all by refusing our world proper planetary status so now you're going to miss out! We're kinda patriotic that way! :-P ;-) Well you'll just miss out - at least until you've included us on your planets list again and given each of the anti-Pluto IAU members a televised kick up the backside anyway! ;-) Actually there’s life on Pluto too!

Our species lives around Pluto’s core-mantle interface on a thin layer of plutonium that’s found in the Plutonian core. Our mantle is like Euopa’s (& even Eris’es) in having a subterrerean ocean hidden below an icy crust. Charon’s tides keeps our planet nice and geologically active - Nix & hydras’ tides not-so much! ;-)

Its a pretty cool way to live! ;-) 8)

We’ve been around far longer than your youthful species and are (hate to boast but true) far more advanced than Humanity. When your ‘New Horizons’ probe flies by you’ll see our cities as hollows on the Plutonian surface & then you’ll find us out officially. ;-)

We’ve actually got a faster than light wormhole device and lots more techno-goodies which we were going to share with humanity to fix things up for ya a litle - getting your spacecraft to all the planets (Pluto most of all!) was our criteria for you proving yourselves worthy of this aid. :-)

But then you had to go & spoil it all by refusing our world proper planetary status so now you’re going to miss out! We’re kinda patriotic that way! :-P ;-)

Well you’ll just miss out - at least until you’ve included us on your planets list again and given each of the anti-Pluto IAU members a televised kick up the backside anyway! ;-)

]]> By: StevoR http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/09/hubble-spies-carbon-dioxide-600-trillion-kilometers-away/#comment-140195 StevoR Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:04:29 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/09/hubble-spies-carbon-dioxide-600-trillion-kilometers-away/#comment-140195 I've just emailed the WooS site author(s?) via their contact link & told them to feel free to visit here. Can't find anything on there on who they are but then even this still-on-dial-up & not-very-net-savvy web-sufer knows identity can be problematic on the net although they seem legit to me. Bear in mind too that life has been known or speculated to exist in some pretty astonishing and harsh places. On Earth we know of extremophiles and bacteria thatcan endure staggeringamoiunts of heat, cold, radiation, lack of water, presenceof acids and alkais etc .. Below our feet itha sbeen suggested awhole region of deep hotbiosphere exists perhaps including silicon based microbes! Elsewhere within our solar system there is possible life on Mars, Europa, Encleadus, Titan, etc .. Arthur C.Clarke has plausibly imagined aerial lifeforms living in the clouds of Jupiter. Ben Bova has made at least a reasonable speculative case for life existing in his novels on Mars, in the clouds and on the surface of venus, even in the rings of Saturn - see his Sf novels. Now I know that's science fiction where imagination is given more reign but extraopolating to how 'Hoth' may be (&how very little wereallyknow for certain about it) I wouldn't rule out the possibility of 'Hoth' having life. Not that I'd put the odds at 100% or anywhere near that but still .. ... I'd love to see us invent an FTL drive and go see! ;-) <i> (Yes, yes, I know that may well NOT be possible either. I love both Sf and science - wish the latter would help accomplish the dreams of the former a bit more rather than squash 'em with gosh-durned relativity & so forth.;-) ) </i> I’ve just emailed the WooS site author(s?) via their contact link & told them to feel free to visit here. Can’t find anything on there on who they are but then even this still-on-dial-up & not-very-net-savvy web-sufer knows identity can be problematic on the net although they seem legit to me.

Bear in mind too that life has been known or speculated to exist in some pretty astonishing and harsh places.

On Earth we know of extremophiles and bacteria thatcan endure staggeringamoiunts of heat, cold, radiation, lack of water, presenceof acids and alkais etc .. Below our feet itha sbeen suggested awhole region of deep hotbiosphere exists perhaps including silicon based microbes!

Elsewhere within our solar system there is possible life on Mars, Europa, Encleadus, Titan, etc .. Arthur C.Clarke has plausibly imagined aerial lifeforms living in the clouds of Jupiter. Ben Bova has made at least a reasonable speculative case for life existing in his novels on Mars, in the clouds and on the surface of venus, even in the rings of Saturn - see his Sf novels.

Now I know that’s science fiction where imagination is given more reign but extraopolating to how ‘Hoth’ may be (&how very little wereallyknow for certain about it) I wouldn’t rule out the possibility of ‘Hoth’ having life. Not that I’d put the odds at 100% or anywhere near that but still ..

… I’d love to see us invent an FTL drive and go see! ;-)

(Yes, yes, I know that may well NOT be possible either. I love both Sf and science - wish the latter would help accomplish the dreams of the former a bit more rather than squash ‘em with gosh-durned relativity & so forth.;-) )

]]> By: StevoR http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/09/hubble-spies-carbon-dioxide-600-trillion-kilometers-away/#comment-140180 StevoR Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:11:41 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/12/09/hubble-spies-carbon-dioxide-600-trillion-kilometers-away/#comment-140180 <b> IVAN3MAN </b> said : "Also, I see that you have a bad problem with “typos”. I’m sure that you will be relieved to hear that according to the Discover Web Editor, Amos Kenigsberg, we will have a preview/edit facility here on B.A. Blog sometime early next year in January/February." He-elll yes!!! Can't come soon enough as far as I'm concerned! Great news. :-D <b> Tom Marking said on December 10th, 2008 at 12:27 pm : "@StevoR “You can go to one of my sources - “Worlds of other Suns” - via clicking my name above - for the named worlds listed earlier. Its an exoplanets website (not mine but a fave of mine) with examples of … er very optimistically but well written info & superbly illustrated exoplanets as named (Hoth Tatooine etc ..) Hopefully interesting for people! Hopefully the link’ll work!” Concerning the planet Hoth (i.e., OGLE-2005-BLG-390Lb) the URL you provided says the following: “WoOS gives this planet a 100% probability of harboring it’s own life and ecosystem, a notable first among the discovered Exoplanets. It would be almost impossible for such a world to not have some form of life.” Huh? The planet is totally frozen and yet it has a 100% probability of having life? What/who is WoOS and what criteria are being used for this probability? According to Wikipedia the planet’s surface temperature is only 50 degrees Kelvin. This is a slam dunk for life? I don’t think so." </i> Nah, me neither. :-) That's why I wrote : " Its [Worlds of Other Suns) an exoplanets website (not mine but a fave of mine) with examples of <b> … er very optimistically </b> but well written info & superbly illustrated exoplanets as named (Hoth Tatooine etc ..) Mind you, we <b>don't</b> actually <i>know </i> for sure that 'Hoth' is frozen either .. Who is to say that it hasn't got a fair bit of geothermal heat and all sorts of other energy sources keeping it or areas on it warm? (Meteorite impacts? Extreme atmospheric factors like greenhosue gases? Pyromanic alien friends? ;-) ) The 'WooS' was a site I stumbled over when searching for exoplanet info which seemed, heck, still seems pretty good. Yes they are probably being wa-aay overly optimistic when it comes to the chances of life on "Hoth" - but, hey, we can't really prove that wrong now can we? ;-) (ok, ok, I * know * the burden of proof is on those making the extraordinary claims and the chances aren't 100 % as they suggest and so on but well ..putting that aside I still reckon its a pretty good website & I like their naming ideas -& spaceart - too! ;-) ) IVAN3MAN said :

“Also, I see that you have a bad problem with “typos”. I’m sure that you will be relieved to hear that according to the Discover Web Editor, Amos Kenigsberg, we will have a preview/edit facility here on B.A. Blog sometime early next year in January/February.”

He-elll yes!!! Can’t come soon enough as far as I’m concerned! Great news. :-D

Tom Marking said on December 10th, 2008 at 12:27 pm :

“@StevoR “You can go to one of my sources - “Worlds of other Suns” - via clicking my name above - for the named worlds listed earlier. Its an exoplanets website (not mine but a fave of mine) with examples of … er very optimistically but well written info & superbly illustrated exoplanets as named (Hoth Tatooine etc ..) Hopefully interesting for people! Hopefully the link’ll work!”

Concerning the planet Hoth (i.e., OGLE-2005-BLG-390Lb) the URL you provided says the following:

“WoOS gives this planet a 100% probability of harboring it’s own life and ecosystem, a notable first among the discovered Exoplanets. It would be almost impossible for such a world to not have some form of life.”

Huh? The planet is totally frozen and yet it has a 100% probability of having life? What/who is WoOS and what criteria are being used for this probability? According to Wikipedia the planet’s surface temperature is only 50 degrees Kelvin. This is a slam dunk for life? I don’t think so.”

Nah, me neither. :-) That’s why I wrote :

” Its [Worlds of Other Suns) an exoplanets website (not mine but a fave of mine) with examples of … er very optimistically but well written info & superbly illustrated exoplanets as named (Hoth Tatooine etc ..)

Mind you, we don’t actually know for sure that ‘Hoth’ is frozen either .. Who is to say that it hasn’t got a fair bit of geothermal heat and all sorts of other energy sources keeping it or areas on it warm? (Meteorite impacts? Extreme atmospheric factors like greenhosue gases? Pyromanic alien friends? ;-) )

The ‘WooS’ was a site I stumbled over when searching for exoplanet info which seemed, heck, still seems pretty good. Yes they are probably being wa-aay overly optimistic when it comes to the chances of life on “Hoth” - but, hey, we can’t really prove that wrong now can we? ;-)

(ok, ok, I * know * the burden of proof is on those making the extraordinary claims and the chances aren’t 100 % as they suggest and so on but well ..putting that aside I still reckon its a pretty good website & I like their naming ideas -& spaceart - too! ;-) )

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