This is interesting: someone has started a group on Facebook called "She is an astronomer". The description reads:
Promoting gender equality and empowering women is one of the United Nations Millennium Development Goals. She Is An Astronomer will promote gender equality in astronomy (and science in general), tackling bias issues by providing a web platform where information and links about gender balance and related resources are collected.
I think this is a pretty good idea. It’s a new group and there is already an interesting discussion going on about what it means to be equal. Personally, I think it means equal opportunity. I’m no psychologist, so I don’t know if women think differently then men in general or in specifics, but even if men and women think exactly in the same way, we should strive for equal opportunity for everyone. No one gets promoted or demoted because of gender; no one gets any sort of bias for good or for ill.
I imagine the situation in real life is more complicated than this, of course. We still see a lot of attrition of women during grad school and postdoc years. There are all sorts of difficult-to-distinguish things going on there. And I know a lot of men who are very good about gender equality, and a lot who… aren’t. I still think that with time, this will become less and less of an issue, but for now it’s still a cause worth fighting for. And it’s not just women, of course; without breaking a sweat I can think of lots of minorities or people in various categories who are fighting a very steep uphill battle.
I don’t know how much a Facebook group will help, but if it helps even a handful of people be a little more aware, then good on ya.
December 18th, 2008 at 11:04 pm
I agree that if men and women are the same “gender equity” within the various professions is important, perhaps critical. If, as life’s experience teaches us, women are subtly different from men, their presence in professions and intellectual endeavor is even more important.
Would Karl Benz have faith in his Patent Motorwagen if Berta not been angry at him for spending prolonged amounts of time on the project, and drove that very first automobile back home to see her mother?
If, by whatever means, man and woman came to be on the earth, all earthly endeavors are deficient when dominated by a single gender.
December 19th, 2008 at 12:08 am
Uh, Phil, google first! She is an astronomer isn’t just a Facebook group, it’s one of the International Year of Astronomy’s cornerstone projects.
It has a really stupid logo but the idea is of course sound.
December 19th, 2008 at 12:17 am
It’s good to see people trying to show women that they can and should take part in scientific enterprises, But you can’t spend your childhood being told to go play with barbies and dolls and wake up one day and have an interest in science. It starts young.
December 19th, 2008 at 12:28 am
There’s a big IYA initiative of the same name, presume they’re related?
December 19th, 2008 at 12:32 am
Funny, over here I always noted a distinct female majority in Astronomy courses in the universities I went to. Together with Chemistry, Astronomy seems to be one of the few science courses that don’t seem to have a problem with gender equality.
Now in comp sci… we were 4 out of 50 in a year.
December 19th, 2008 at 1:16 am
jokergirl: Don’t forget biology; switching from bio to CS probably wasn’t a good long-term strategy for me…
December 19th, 2008 at 1:35 am
She is an astronomer is a good initiative, and I’m afraid still relevant. There’s been a while since I saw those ads for telescopes where a bikini girl stood beside the instruments, but I remember them very clearly. They didn’t prevent me from becoming an astrophysicist, and they were in fact the least of obstacles I had to overcome. I like to say that theoretical astrophysics is ridiculously simple and easy compared to the social and psychological lessons I’d have had to learn. And I mean it!
I’m no longer 16 so I have empirical data to lean on when I say that a well mixed gender group is the best to work in and hence the best for all, also for astronomer.
Norway score high on equality but don’t be fooled to think it is all fixed now. The discrimination is more subtle and often harder to relate to.
Good of you Bad Astronomer to give this issue blogairtime.
December 19th, 2008 at 1:40 am
Given how history has treated women, I think they deserve a little more than “equal opportunity”. Why? Because the moment we strive for exactly “equal opportunity” is the moment we fall short, but if we try to give women just that extra little push, we can start turning back the social structures that prevents them from being as successful in the sciences as men. Then we can start talking about “equal opportunity”, imo.
I’m a Computer Scientist, and in my field, the gender bias is absolutely ridiculous. Especially at the school I attended, but I saw it everywhere, including the workplace.
The problem isn’t with men being dominating, or thinking they are smarter, or anything like that. It’s little things – the fact that elementary-school classrooms are kept a little chilly, which helps boys to focus, but is uncomfortable for girls; the fact that most educational toys are geared towards boys; the fact girls don’t have a stereotypical “smart” rolemodel to dream about, like boys have with Einstein and Newton and Linnaeus. These millions of little details that make up a person’s life is the root cause of the Computer-Science gender gap.
How to fix it? I dunno… I dated all the CS girls I could so I could figure out what made them different from the girls studying English, and frankly, I have no idea. Small dataset, ya know…
December 19th, 2008 at 3:56 am
I think CS was the only area I didn’t see a lot women when I was I college. I remember several grad courses that ended up being men only.
I also remember reading a paper in one of my classes which had an interesting piece of information. The study found that women in CS, on average, felt less confident using computers than even men who weren’t in CS.
http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/downing/papers/GenderDifferences.pdf
December 19th, 2008 at 4:01 am
Walruss – I don’t know any boys who dream of being like Newton or Linnaeus – Einstein *perhaps*, at a stretch. IMO the more inspiring role models are the ones you see around you every day, not those from past centuries.
December 19th, 2008 at 5:45 am
I’m a computer engineer and I had some teachers that treat us, women, different… one even told me that a woman shouldn’t be the leader of a team in his class… that of course made me study and work harder in his class to proof him wrong
December 19th, 2008 at 6:20 am
jokergirl – “Funny, over here I always noted a distinct female majority in Astronomy courses in the universities I went to. Together with Chemistry, Astronomy seems to be one of the few science courses that don’t seem to have a problem with gender equality”
It is interesting how you mentioned that – I took an elective introductory astronomy course way back when and a lot of the girls there thought it was actually astrology.
They remained in the course, so I guess it was probably a good thing that some paranormal nonsense got them hooked on to the real information. The professor had more patience than I would have deflecting the initial astrology questions however.
Although it seems that introductory science courses attract a lot of women because they need those credits to get into other female dominated faculties – nursing, education, etc. That is why you see a ton of women in chemistry. After those courses however, the numbers start to fall noticeably (except in biochem… that is dominated by women just like med school nowadays).
*****
Hypatia said: “I’m a computer engineer and I had some teachers that treat us, women, different… one even told me that a woman shouldn’t be the leader of a team in his class… that of course made me study and work harder in his class to proof him wrong”
The comments weren’t unheard of in mechanical engineering either. I had a professor say in front of the entire class something along the lines of “women aren’t natural engineers because they lack good spatial perception”.
December 19th, 2008 at 6:24 am
Now in comp sci… we were 4 out of 50 in a year.
That was how it was when I was in school, and it’s a male dominated industry to be sure.
At the same time, I work in a major corporation’s IT group and there are well-qualified women in major management positions in a group that employs well int0 the four figures of people.
No one gives a damn if they are female or not; what they care about is competence and to a one they are that.
December 19th, 2008 at 7:40 am
Well, if you want to give everyone equal opportunity, you might have to go back to childhood, and make sure that little girls and little boys aren’t treated differently. Santa didn’t like it when I asked for a toy plane, and people who research such things find that little girls are more encouraged to be quiet and cautious, aren’t allowed to roam as far, and so on. It’s not like you can allow people equal opportunities without talking about even the cultural influences and stereotypes within astronomy, or science in general.
For the people talking about computer science – I was very impressed with “Unlocking the Clubhouse – Women in Computing” which was a very thorough investigation of the gender gap at CMU, going from childhood to undergrad.
December 19th, 2008 at 7:53 am
I think the facebook thing (and any effort like it) could do some good. It helps build the tribe, make people feel like they belong and are part of something. From my experience that’s one of the main things keeping women from getting into certain fields.
Case in point: I volunteer with a FSAE team (when I can, lately I’ve been slacking). It’s a university level engineering thing, and car related, so the gender bias is basically 30:1 men. And by that, I mean there are 30 guys on the two teams, and one girl. I don’t know how she couldn’t feel out of place, and worse the guys (solidly engineers, many of whom haven’t passed that social graces 101 course yet) give her…special attention. They’re harmless and many have some admiration for her, but they are awkward, and crude, and sometimes desperate. Note that none of them think women are incapable, and there’s no separation of work type or expectations.
For the most part she laughs it off and plays along, but i sincerely doubt many women would. It’s a volunteer program, all are welcome to come and go as they please, and no qualifications are necessary. The biggest thing keeping women from partaking in this excellent aerospace engineering opportunity is that they are few, and we are many. It’s off putting.
It is getting better though, I remember sitting in a graduation ceremony with my father, and while I noted that 4 out of 5 graduating engineers were men, he pointed out to me that when he graduated it was more like 49 out of 50.
December 19th, 2008 at 8:19 am
It’s like this in a lot of industries. I work in technology (software development) and last I heard, related graduating classes are about 10% women. My previous company had a female manager, and our staff was about 10% female. This company has all-male managers and I’d say we have ~1%… something smells fishy.
December 19th, 2008 at 8:37 am
I work in the aerospace engineering business. When I started work many, many years ago (right after the Wright Brothers invented flight as I recall), the only women to be found in the workplace were secretaries. Today, women number almost one in three among the technical staff. Though there is still room for improvement, there has been progress in integrating women into the more technical disciplines.
December 19th, 2008 at 8:57 am
As someone who decided to enter engineering a little later in life, I’m 27, it’s interesting that I really did think about how I would be treated and if I could handle being a minority. In my entire life I could never really have been classified as such and the internal dialogue about what it means to be me that has ensued has been really interesting.
What I’ve come up with is that basically I am not one that chooses to be out of place. I find my place within a group and make it work. I have no doubt that I will be just fine and find my place within the engineering community just as I have in many others.
My basic concern is that I might somehow benefit from my gender alone. It makes my skin crawl to think that I would receive a job or any other opportunity BECAUSE I’m a woman. And on the other hand, I don’t want to be excluded for the same reason. I also don’t want any special consideration. But with this in mind concerning my career and future, it is a difficult situation because men NEVER require maternity leave. Being in a male dominated field concerning these “womanly” issues makes me feel almost embarrassed that at some point I will have to go to my employer and fess up to being pregnant. Just things I think about.
I’m sure it will all work out and seeing the support within these comments makes me feel even more at ease.
December 19th, 2008 at 9:04 am
Give Phil a break…there are a LOT of IYA intitiatives! Trust me, I work on a few of them and I still occasionally find one I didn’t know about.
December 19th, 2008 at 9:35 am
I too am heartened by a lot of the womens’ replies in this thread. It’s been my experience that there just isn’t any downside to female engineers and scientists, a view that previous generations obviously didn’t share. They were wrong.
I got a real kick out of the STS-114 Shuttle mission, one of the most important ever (Return to Flight) in that it was commanded by Eileen Collins. That was one helluva statement on “equal” in that NASA selected the best astronaut to command a technically and politically challenging mission and she just happened to be a woman.
December 19th, 2008 at 9:48 am
Women lack spatial perception???
Egads, when was HE born?
I think back to when my ex-wife was going for her degree in mathematical sciences/computer science(1978) and recall some of the same BS laid on her. What was so funny was that she would come home from her graduate course in Probability theory(where she was competing with PhD candidates in Math), complaining she only understood half what was being presented,,,at the end of the course, she set the class curve,,,
When we got to Saudi Arabia, she worked as a “casual” employee(all non-primary employees were graded as casual employees w/in ARAMCO, meaning they didn’t get the extra benefits, like expat bonus, etc) in the engineering dept at Ras Tanura as a programmer,,,About two years into our presence there, the data processing dept in Dhahran started to complain about Barbara taking a ton of their work away from them,,,seems the engineers in Ras Tanura could give Barbara a job and w/in two weeks she’d have it done and de-bugged. The EDP dept in Dhahran typically took five times as long for the same job.
Well, she was a top down, structured programmer and so good at what she did that even an optimizing compiler couldn’t improve her programs run time.
,,,but she was just a WOMAN,,,Go figure!!!
Gary 7
December 19th, 2008 at 10:49 am
molly: Good news, some companies are starting to offer Paternity leave now too, so it won’t seem quite as unequal/discouraging for the employer if they know it’s just as likely the leave will get used.
December 19th, 2008 at 11:12 am
Spiv: Thanks, that is reassuring. It does help, but for me it seems a little different, because I pretty much don’t have a choice. If I choose to have children I have to miss work. I also honestly think it’s just part of my own issues of wanting to do everything at the same time, even if it’s not physically possible, and having to make a choice! But I definately appreciate the support!
December 19th, 2008 at 11:58 am
Hadn’t really considered that aspect of it. I kind of wonder how that’s really viewed in the upper management circles: on the one side, a woman basically has no choice. You have hospital time, you have newborn care time, these are not times you can possibly get out of, so it’s guaranteed absence. A man has a choice, to some degree (although I think it’s pretty much required, technically child survival likely doesn’t depend on it, even if sanity might). Actually using said time might be perceived as a fault, not unlike the weirdness that is sick leave (sure, it’s delegated time, but if you actually use it much it’s looked down upon). Yours shows up at the interview, ours shows up in a performance review.
I suspect as our generation takes the reigns all of this will change. We stay out later at night, come in later in the day, believe in casual monday-thursday, and get 5 times as much done as our “established” counterparts. In time maybe we will believe in true personal leave, since we’re still getting paid less because we don’t have 30+ years “experience.”
December 19th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
There were times in Computer Science grad school (early-mid 1980s) when I was the only female in class. But as an undergrad in the late 1970s, there were more of us – at least 25%. For the past several years, our CS majors classes have had about 10-15% women. This semester my class was 3 women of 22 students. Next semester it’s 3 women out of 26 students – different three. But it’s not as strange as being the only woman in the classroom – and you’re the professor.
When I go out to career days at middle schools and high schools, there are only 10-15% girls in my sessions. Being a computer scientist sounds too geeky. And too many girls (and probably boys, too) think they aren’t good at it. Hint: being able to play video games or add memory to a computer doesn’t make you ‘good with computers’ and isn’t really relevant to becoming a computer scientist. Problem solving, thinking logically, and being able to abstract as well as communicate are more important.
Ryan mentioned the study where women felt they were less competent at computer science even when they were doing better in the the computer class. In my experience in teaching, the women are often near the top of the class. Maybe that’s because they really want to be there and would have moved to something else if they didn’t. We need diversity of experiences (gender, socio-economic, cultural, …) to think about problems in different ways.
Debunking the stereotypes to remove the gender assumptions opens up the possibility that we’ll get more people of all backgrounds interested in math and science. I encourage students to keep their options open by taking as much math and science (and communication) courses as they can. And don’t be satisfied with the status quo.
Dragonfly TV (young kids), Engineer Girl (middle school), and Engineer Your Life (high school) are three similar sorts of resources to what I’d expect She is an Astronomer to be. Being a scientist or engineer is fun.
December 19th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
It’s an honest concern– I once had a manager who told me that he doesn’t like to hire women because “they get pregnant and quit.” I don’t look at things that way, but it’s not an uncommon viewpoint for more… traditional men. Frankly, to my gen-Y eyes a male-dominated workplace just doesn’t feel right and I miss having more women around. It’s an utter falsehood that there is a gender-specific deficiency in engineering, computer science in specific. The women who choose to do it are equally as good — or bad — as men. Simple math. If 60% of the workforce is average or below average, and 90% are men and 10% women, you’ll meet many more “above average” male engineers, by sheer population. This kind of environment is breeding ground for confirmation bias/stereotypes, something that we as skeptics do our best to fight.
December 19th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
jay r: we’re all born with innate interest in the world, no matter what our gender. it’s how those interests are handled later on by the adults in our lives that help guide us to some extent. Nonetheless, it shouldn’t have to be that little girls are chided for having the same interest in bugs and frogs and stars and engines that little boys do. Whenever I see girl children being treated like that by “well-meaning” adults, I cringe. They do stuff to little girls that they wouldn’t dream of doing to little boys.
December 19th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
Spiv: I completely agree with you, and I definately see the workplace environment changing. The convergence of seemingly seperate parts of you life certainly makes for interesting thinking! I am so excited to have finally found something that I am passionate about in engineering, and it has been really strange to then to doubt my decision based on whether or not I want to have kids!
I love it though, it makes life even more interesting when you discover sides of yourself you never expected to be there! Thanks for the great discussion.
December 20th, 2008 at 1:20 am
Great examples, Walruss. Also many IT jobs work long hours with no flexibility, have cut off cubicles limiting social work environments, and a lack of good mentorship and counseling for women. Combine this with a very unfriendly all male environment and few women, even ones that love computers and are interested in the subject, want to be subjugated to that.
March 6th, 2009 at 4:40 am
[...] tanke på att Internationella astronomiåret driver ett omtalat och till synes stort kvinnoprojekt, She is an astronomer, händer det tyvärr rätt lite under [...]
March 6th, 2009 at 4:40 am
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