[Update: Before I posted this, I read Laurie's post. Twice. And yet, somehow, I missed that this preschool was at a Lutheran church. Because of this, I withdraw my comment. When you put your kid in a religious place, then you have to expect they'll get religion during the day unless otherwise told it won't be so.]
Laurie T. at Rational Moms has a problem: her son’s preschool teacher is injecting religion into her son’s day. Laurie obviously has a problem with this. However, it’s not a public school, so it’s not technically illegal. She’s unsure what to do, and is asking for ideas.
I posted my own idea in her comments (I was first. I’m never first. That was cool). Why not go over there and check out the details, and leave her a thoughtful reply? There are probably resolutions to this no one else has thought of yet, and a good conversation may yield some workable results.
December 21st, 2008 at 3:07 pm
I’m never first either.
December 21st, 2008 at 3:18 pm
First!
… aw, nuts.
December 21st, 2008 at 3:28 pm
Yeah, but still – God DID create everything. And even if he wouldn’t have, astronomy as a science shouldn’t step into the realm of metaphysics.
December 21st, 2008 at 3:50 pm
Oh, now. Everyone knows the big bang was caused by kids playing with matches….
December 21st, 2008 at 3:55 pm
I’m forced to wonder why a rationalist would choose to send their child to a church preschool in the first place but I’m not a parent so I’m sure that there are issues here that I am not prepared to address.
I’m going to assume that, because this is a religious institution, that whatever interpretation of the science/faith debate is most common in that religion is going to be what informs policy. As a Lutheran school, that will vary depending on the synod of which the school is a member. I would first have a discussion with the teacher and perhaps with the head administrator of the school to find out exactly what that policy is.
Even if the policy is to teach some sort or religious creation, unless it’s a systemic, day in day out, bit of instruction, I see no reason to take the child out of the school. This might be a great opportunity to introduce the boy to the fact that, as a skeptic, he is going to encounter religious people as he grows up and lives his life, people that will not share his world view but that, nonetheless, he must live among. These are people that, for practical reasons, he is going to have to tolerate and be tolerated by, however much he might want and try to change their worldview and however much they might do likewise.
December 21st, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Even in a school operated by a church, I think parents are entitled to know if the school is going to evangelize its own particular creed or just teach about religions. I.e., there’s a difference between declaring that one flavor of faith has all the right answers versus an academic presentation of different faiths. In a world where billions of people hold fast to the tenets of one faith or another, an educted person needs to know something about those faiths.
Preschoolers, though, would sem to be a bit young for all that.
This also illustrates why teachers are wise to avoid addressing religion. For every parent who gets upset because a teacher said the Big Bang didn’t happen, there will be at least one who gets upset if the teacher says it did. Of course, the latter is science, not religion, but try telling that to some folks who see science as the enemy of their faith.
December 21st, 2008 at 4:16 pm
Interesting topic here. I agree with justcorbly, teaching kids “unchangeable truths” in pre-school is pretentious at best. Richard Feynman has a great book that touches on this matter, “What do you Care what Other People Think”. His solution was to inform his child about different natural phenomena in a practical sense, ie showing his son to recognize patterns when playing with tiles, explaining how birds are able to fly during their walks, etc. This allowed the child to form his own opinions, to ask questions, and to probe when told things that didn’t seem to make sense. I think at the most rudimentary level, teaching children things that go against common sense is a bad idea. It seems we have it backwards, I am not religious but I think it makes more sense to teach children science first, simply because it is explainable. When they are old enough to understand the concept of “metaphysics” and “spirituality”, Religion should be introduced.
December 21st, 2008 at 4:27 pm
I’m no fan of exposing kids to religious dogma, but its a free country, its a private school, and the mother knows this. If she has a problem, she should take the kid out of the pre-school.
December 21st, 2008 at 4:29 pm
I’m with Thomas on this one–why is a “rationalist” sending her child to a religious-based school, and then shocked when the child comes home with some religious based ideas?
Best thing is to talk w/teacher and head of school about it. But it may be a great way for the child to be exposed to other viewpoints. If it is truly a problem, go somewhere else.
December 21st, 2008 at 4:33 pm
One of the most important lessons in becoming a skeptic is that teachers aren’t always right just because they’re teachers.
December 21st, 2008 at 4:54 pm
Laurie’s possible responses, she says:
“How dare you lie to my child about the basic foundations of physics?”
“So, are you guys young-earthers? ‘Cause that’s crazy!”
“Feel free to teach my kid all about the bible, but don’t ever contradict me again.”
Calling the teacher a liar is probably a bad idea. I don’t see any evidence for young earther, so I’m a little mystified by the second one. The third one, whew, seems like a bundle of contradictions–and what if a teacher were teaching the big bang and a parent said “don’t ever contradict me again”?
December 21st, 2008 at 5:25 pm
Said Thomas:
I am an atheist, skeptic, rationalist, all of that too. And yet I (and my wife) chose to send our kids (under 10) to a christian school. I’ll first mention that we’re in the Netherlands, where the craziness in those schools isn’t as bad as I understand it to be in some US schools.
For us there were two choices, a public school and a christian school, both very close to our home, within 2 minutes walking distance. We made our choice based on our assessment of what the best school was. Based on what we heard from parents from both schools, on what we could observe going on around the schools, and talks at the schools.
We decided that, despite the religion fantasy, it was the best environment for them. Besides, we live in a society that is (for now) culturally linked with christianity (damn you firefox, that word does NOT need capitalized). What they learn about the bible has at least cultural significance, and they sure won’t learn it from me.
I think the religion brainwashing only works if everyone one trusts works with it. I won’t. It’s much too early to get into real discussions about it, but when one asks “do you believe in god?” I do say “no”. Other questions I’m ok to respond to ambiguously. They’re smart kids, they’ll draw their own conclusions eventually. I did.
December 21st, 2008 at 5:31 pm
For heaven’s sake, it’s a religious school, the teacher is the preacher’s wife. What did this mother expect?
The Mom should respect the rights of the school to teach in the manner they see fit.
Clearly this child should be withdrawn from this or any other religious school.
This unfortunate incident is yet more proof that we need a voucher system in the United States. The days of one size fits all government schools ought to go the way of the buggy whip.
December 21st, 2008 at 5:54 pm
Sometimes folk have less choice about which school their kids go to than they may like.
Since the teacher wants to teach literalist theology, the mother at least has the right to say that’s not even a done deal in most Christian* churches.
*ps and why wouldn’t Christianity be capitalised, like Buddhism, Marxism, Islam, etc etc? Even the metric system capitalises when the unit is based on a person’s name.
December 21st, 2008 at 6:01 pm
Mike, isn’t christ a title? Much the same as the king. I actually don’t care one way or the other but sometimes I use lower case just because I know it annoys christians. Childish eh?
December 21st, 2008 at 6:09 pm
Buddha is too. I prefer to bow to the gods of grammatical style but not to stoop to the tricks of idols, graven, engraved or gravely unlikely.
December 21st, 2008 at 7:41 pm
Thomas says:
Like slang, my wife and I chose to send our son to a religious preschool because it was far superior to the other options. It went up through Kindergarten and we most likely would’ve kept him there if they offered 1st grade. (Our son is currently in 2nd grade.) Just because something is religious doesn’t means it’s bad.
December 21st, 2008 at 8:12 pm
@Jim Howard: As a former public school teacher (and current private school teacher), nothing is more amusing than watching a charter school start up, having a bunch of parents (who know literally nothing about teaching) turn on each other and start trying to make the school in their own image. Face it, public schools are not perfect and need improvement. But in a society with millions of disparate views on everything from faith to reason to life in general, a flexible, fluid “one-size-fits-all” approach isn’t just the best way, it’s the only way. How else does this society work, unless we’re forced to get along at an early age?
Oh, and I’ve made this point before and I’ll make it again. Exposing kids to a little bit of religion, faith, and values in the context of a school never hurt anyone. Maybe the mom should relax a little. The kid’s not going to come home and start speaking in tongues (any more than a toddler already does).
For Pete’s sake. I thought the religious fundamentalists were uptight.
December 21st, 2008 at 8:34 pm
# David D Says:
December 21st, 2008 at 4:29 pm
“I’m with Thomas on this one–why is a “rationalist” sending her child to a religious-based school, and then shocked when the child comes home with some religious based ideas?
Best thing is to talk w/teacher and head of school about it. But it may be a great way for the child to be exposed to other viewpoints. If it is truly a problem, go somewhere else.”
Couldn’t agree more. I went to an Australian public school (that was awful) and ended up in a private Methodist school by the age of 10. I’m Jewish. As part of the school curriculum, I had to sit in chapel services once a fortnight. Religious ed. classes was mainly about Christianity, but the school had enough sense to discuss other religions too. The experience didn’t hurt me, and I had a great number of interesting and open discussions with the RE teachers; the school also had a diverse background. One of my best friends was a practicing Sikh, many others were Christians of differing beliefs, some were Jewish, etc etc. We were there because the school had a good track record of high marks and discipline; not because of the religious doctrine.
If you put your kid in a religious school, then why be upset when they teach religion? Better to take the kid to another school that better suits your belief system. But then, in Australia, we have less ‘craziness’ about this stuff than in the US.
December 21st, 2008 at 9:24 pm
I was raised in a very Catholic household* (not closed-minded, but very Catholic), but we were all sent to a Lutheran pres-school (and then public schools K-12). The pre-school didn’t preach any religious view at us (mostly, we read “Green Eggs and Ham” and learned how to get along with other kids and with teachers). I don’t think it’s remotely obvious that a religious pre-school would be teaching religion in the school, although it’s also not unreasonable. They should be up front about it, though.
* Actually, I’m posting from that household right now. Home for the holidays!
December 21st, 2008 at 9:40 pm
I posted my views on her blog. I dont get the arguement
“There may be a limited choice of schools”
Do parents not think of this before having the child? I would and a whole lot more.
December 21st, 2008 at 9:40 pm
Just tell your kids like it is and explain that not everything they hear in school is correct. I have 5 kids and its worked pretty well for them. We once had a teacher provide a book with pictures of dinasaurs walking around with humnans! We promplty explained that it was non-sense, and then moved the kids to a new school the next year.
December 21st, 2008 at 9:51 pm
@Jim Howard: Are you on crack? How does this say anything about the “need” for a voucher system? The last thing we need is for the government to pay for that kind of religious nonsense to be taught.
As far as the religious indoctrination at a religious preschool, what did she expect? If that was going to be a problem, it should have been a selection criterion that ruled that school out initially.
December 21st, 2008 at 9:59 pm
I fail to see the problem with this… she can send her child to a public school or perhaps try another private school is avalible.
December 21st, 2008 at 9:59 pm
I’m afraid I have to break ranks on this on. It’s a church run pre-school. I would think that a rationalist would know that there is a high probability that religion is going to be taught. (BTW, I seriously doubt a preschooler is going to be indoctrinated with anything more than Veggie-Tales).
December 21st, 2008 at 10:15 pm
Mom needs to chill. The teacher wasn’t trying to indoctrinate her son. To her it is a fundamental, non-controversial truth. You don’t have to read very far into the Bible to get to the part about God creating the universe.
“I’m shocked, shocked to find that there is religion going on here!”
December 21st, 2008 at 10:29 pm
I’m sure the mom knew there would be religious teachings (she even says so in her follow-up comment on her blog), but it sounds like the teacher (at least by the son’s recollection) might have been talking full-on special creationism (young-earth, etc.). I think that’s part of the issue, here. A little research about Lutheran doctrines proves that out, at least for one major Synod…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheran_Church_-_Missouri_Synod#Creation
>>The LCMS is officially creationist. According to the recent
>>2004 LCMS synodical resolution 2-08A “To Commend
>>Preaching and Teaching Creation,” all LCMS churches and
>>educational institutions—including preschool through 12th
>>grade, universities, and seminaries—are “to teach creation
>>from the Biblical perspective.”
Where I live, the ONLY (yes ONLY) decent preschools are theistic — the secular ones are crap. I’d have done the same thing she did.
I think the best option here is to just gut it out for the rest of the school year, and within a year of starting public school in the fall, with proper guidance from the parents, it will all be forgotten. Having a conversation with the teacher (even if it weren’t any of the humorous examples presented by the author) probably won’t get anywhere except “outing” the kid as a child of an atheist… and perhaps subjecting him to EXTRA proselytizing from the minister’s wife.
December 22nd, 2008 at 7:03 am
Here we go again…
God for you, Phil, that you withdrew your comment. It was flawed in its logic to begin with.
As to a “Young Earth” philosophy, other posters are 100% correct that this should be an issue of a different sort if it’s being taught in a Lutheran school. While all of the Lutheran synods are creationist (not unlike pretty much all of the mainline and evangelical churches in America), neither the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, or Evangelical Lutheran Church in America subscribes to “Young Earth” doctrine, and they should be concerned if one of their teachers was teaching it.
To give you a flavor, there is a rather famous incident with a reporter and a former leader of what is now the ELCA, which is considered the most liberal of the three. When asked by the reporter if Lutherans believed they followed the one true faith, he responded by saying, “Of course! We also believe we’re not the only ones who do.” Granted, among other things, the WELS and LCMS follow a “closed table” doctrine in their communion service (the ELCA practices open communion), so there are some notable differences between them.
The only time a faith based private school would run into trouble teaching religious doctrine is if the school also receives (IIRC) a certain threshold of US federal funding. That combination is a definite no-no.
By the way, this nation may not be explicitly Christian, but it was most certainly founded upon Christian principles. The evidence supporting this is plentiful in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. The primary arguments for independence were based on a combination of unfair taxation and religious freedom – as in the freedom to practice your faith, or lack thereof, without persecution by the government. The basis that man has certain rights which can not legally be taken away by government are explicitly justified through the notion that these rights were given by “our Creator” (aka that “fantasy myth” God many skeptics and atheists talk about so viciously, and to which any faith in it they attack as brain washing).
Indeed, not everything about religion is bad.
You can find specific Lutheran statements of faith and doctrine at the websites of all three:
http://www.lcms.org
http://www.wels.net
http://www.elca.org
By the way: Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah to these believers! And Merry …um… whatever “warm, fuzzy, Winter Solstice oriented reason to shop, spread cheer, etc.” to everyone else.
December 22nd, 2008 at 8:36 am
It’s a religious school. End of story. She can pick another school, or (gasp!) discuss the topic with her kid.
This is why there needs to be entrance exams for parenting.
December 22nd, 2008 at 8:44 am
Well, first, there is a difference between a “church preschool” and a “preschool run at a church”. The article calls it:
which makes me think it may be the latter. Several preschools in this area are run at churches, including the one my older kids went to, and the one my youngest still attends, yet they simply rent the building during the day when the church is otherwise unoccupied.
So, if it’s run _by_ the church, I’d have to side with the “you knew it was a religious-affiliated school when you signed him up”. But, if it’s simply run _at_ the church, I’d start asking about the school’s policy on this before taking any further steps.
December 22nd, 2008 at 9:30 am
It’s a church preschool. If she can’t find a suitable alternative, she can home school.
OTOH, I went to parochial kindergarten and a few years of grade school and the experience taught me a lot about irrationality, superstition, abuse of authority, and misogeny along with penmanship, phonics, math, and art appreciation. It doesn’t take much parental intervention to encourage a child to develop a rational perspective.
December 22nd, 2008 at 10:21 am
The main reason that Religious schools are often better than non-religious ones, is that they don’t often have to put up with “rationalist” parents and because they are religious is why they are better.
December 22nd, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Heres my take I posted over there:
If you are going to send your child to a preschool run by a religious organization, you need to find out up front what type of dogma you can expect to be presented to your child. The preschool isn’t at fault here unless they are violating an explicit policy against religious indoctrination. They have a right to run their preschool how they want to unless they receive public funds to support their preschool activities.
I wouldn’t worry about pulling the kid out of the school, though. That’s an age where many children still believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny, and most of us manage to put that indoctrination behind us. Besides, his reaction shows his parents got him off on a good foot anyway. (I suppose it would be too much to ask for a preschooler to grill the teacher on what kind of scientific support she has for her position, but wouldn’t it be funny if he had?)
I went to a Christian run preschool, and attended Lutheran schools from Kindergarten trough my senior year of high school, and I still managed to end up an atheist, so there’s always hope.
December 22nd, 2008 at 12:32 pm
This has to be one of the funniest blogs in a long time.
I send my kid to a religious school and they teach him religion. How dare they. Next we’ll see, I sent my kids to Vacation Bible School and they talked about the Bible and not vacations.
Here was the perfect opportunity to tell your kids why you accept the big bang for the origin of the universe and you complain about the teacher.
Bottom Line: If you have kids and can even be bothered to check out the curriculum, whether a private or public school, you have no business having kids.
P.S. I checked out online my local Lutheran church that offers Pre-K classes and guess what, they clearly state that religion is part of the curriculum. I never would have guessed that.
December 22nd, 2008 at 1:04 pm
“Rational Mom?”
At least in this instance, more like “Uptight Uninformed Mom . . .”
December 22nd, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Chris,
You can say merry christmas to atheists, wiccans, naturists, or anyone, it’s not offensive or bothersome. It’s a secular holiday based upon religious and cultural history.
Saying this country was founded on christian principles is a little bit of a misnomer, it sounds like you are implying that these rights and morals we have didn’t exist before christianity. There is more on this, but you can look that up fro yourself if you really want to know what our founding principles are, if you don’t , you wouldn’t listen to me anyway.
Also, “…endowed by their creator”. Yes, it’s in there, but creator is never defined. I assume you are assuming it means the christian god, but it could mean Allah, Jehovah, any god or pantheon out of the many mythologies that people believe, fsm, primordial ooze, or just nature itself.
USA. not a christian nation.
December 22nd, 2008 at 3:40 pm
“…endowed by their creator” is a line from the Declaration of Independence, which actually doesn’t really carry any weight in law, and is an extraordinary ambiguous statement anyway. Notice that it doesn’t state “..endowed by the Lord God”.
Nobody who has done even basic research on Thomas Jefferson or Benjamin Franklin (to name two key founding fathers) could reasonably call either of them Christian.
I don’t recall any references to Christian principles in the Constitution. It’s been a while since I went through ti, so I could be forgetting something key here, but the constitution is a framework of government and doesn’t really address principle values at all. It dictates how the government is to be formed, how it is to be operated, and the roles of its various parts. The Bill of Rights was added on later to make explicit what rights are not granted to the government, and what rights are guaranteed to the people- still no Christian principles.
There are no provisions against theft, murder, or bearing false wittiness in the Constitution or Bill of Rights, which are all principles that predate Christianity and even Judaism by thousands of years anyway.
December 22nd, 2008 at 3:51 pm
By the way, slavery is implicitly endorsed in the constitution, but so it is also in both testaments of the Bible; maybe that’s one on the Christian principles you’re referring to?
December 22nd, 2008 at 11:24 pm
Easy. Send the kid to public school.
January 7th, 2009 at 1:17 am
Michael L said:
(BTW, I seriously doubt a preschooler is going to be indoctrinated with anything more than Veggie-Tales).
Be very careful with a statement like that. I’m being very serious when I ask…do you know who is behind and runs the Veggie-Tales franchise? If you don’t know, you better look into it real quick.
Hint: He’s a very well-known Televangelist and probably not too popular among regular readers of this site or of free-thinking individuals. (initials JF)