Well, nuts. The new year is barely unwrapped and I already have to knock some heads together.
[Oops! I somehow got it in my head that it was NPR promoting this, but it's not. I've corrected my mistake below, and apologies to NPR.]
Now, usually I like National Public Radio. It has intelligent, thoughtful programming, unlike pretty much every other local or national radio station/network.
What the frak they doing promoting astrology?
American Public Media aired a story recently (transcript here) with what could have been a good premise: economists in general were caught by surprise by the recession. If they are experts in their field, why not go outside the field and see how other prognosticators did? They chose astrologers, which I think could have been very cool; see if any of the big name astrologers predicted this event, especially since they do give money advice to people.
Instead, APM did a wholly gullible, credulous, and ridiculous puff piece on astrology. It’s galling.
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Now, many news outlets do stuff like this, then make sure they do the story with just enough tongue-in-cheekiness and snark that they can say "Oh, we weren’t taking it seriously!" But if you read the transcript of the APM story I don’t see that being the case. And on that page they give a huge amount of space to the astrologers themselves to promulgate their antiscientific garbage, including casting charts for Obama, the US, and the Federal Reserve!
Why not ask the Easter Bunny what he thinks while they’re at it?
A far more interesting and useful story would have been to collect as many pre-market collapse predictions about the economy from astrologers that can be found, and see how many of them actually saw it coming. I bet the answer is very, very low.
OK, folks, repeat after me: Astrology doesn’t work.
As far as APM goes, shame on you. I’ll note that at the bottom of the APM web page you can leave comments. I urge people to do so, but remember, BE POLITE. You can be strong and you can be firm, but please don’t be rude.
And a note: whenever I write about astrology, I get a bunch astrologers leaving comments about how I don’t understand it, how I haven’t researched it, how I haven’t seen what they can do. Wrong, wrong, and wrong. I have researched it, I do understand it, and I have seen what astrologers can do. If you’re soft on astrology, please read what I wrote on my website first before leaving a comment here.
Background image of Sun signs from grahamwilliam’s Flickr stream. Tip o’ the phiuchus to D. Jack MacConnell.
January 1st, 2009 at 1:19 pm
FWIW, this isn’t National Public Radio, it’s American Public Media – separate group. Both organizations produce shows which play on public radio stations. The distinction is easily missed.
I listen to Marketplace often, and I think they know it’s bunk, but they sure didn’t make it clear enough.
January 1st, 2009 at 1:19 pm
I wonder how tough it is for astrologists to work in all the new discoveries in the heavens. Fomalhaut Beta is in Leo! Now what?
January 1st, 2009 at 1:26 pm
Rest easy–this is NOT National Public Radio. Marketplace does these tongue-in-cheek stories every once in a while (usually on days when the markets are closed so they have little else to talk about), and while they could have done a better job at this one, I don’t think they’ll be building their portfolios based on astrology.
January 1st, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Awesome! In Aussie >>> way over here .. we get this stuff all the time. I heard some on the Radio yesterday. I heard some the day before that too. They love to bring it up at the end and beginning of the year naturally, but it is prevalent all over the country in all forms in media circles. They usually do it without the ‘tongue in cheek’ here, it is usually cast with so called ‘experts’ with very serious tones in their voices and also alongside listeners ringing in to get their predictions.
One astrologer I heard the other day not only asked what date the listener ( a truck driver ) was born, but also asked a few other questions like, ‘and you do what for a living?,’ ‘your partner is at home right?’, and a few others and then with that information proceeded to explain how his year would be with obvious issues like, ‘finacially difficult’ (economic crisis + truckies are already finding it hard) and another like, ‘partener want’s to spend more time with you’ (come on! .. no really?!) … grr.
Her questioning was obviously in a similar manner to a psychics cold reading techniques and other such ones. Funny enough I find a similar line of questioning when I have seen a Psychologist .. :/
I have attempted to use my astronomy knowledge in situations with friends or work associates to explain for example why Mars used to be thought of as a flaming chariot flying across the sky, and how with our knowledge now it clearly isn’t. It is amazing how simple logic can sometimes be so hard for some people. Another thing that bugs me is how often people confuse the terms astrology and astronomy. Some of my friends who know I love astronomy have asked me to help them do a chart (for astrology) or have been surprised to find out that there is actually a difference. When I explain one is real science and one is fake, I often get blank looks … ‘oh .. aren’t they the same thing?’ ‘No.’
Great post Phil. Hate astrology with a passion, for many reasons, but one of the foremost is how it clouds peoples mind to real science, especially astronomy itself.
January 1st, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Amen! Wow, I have GOT to use that pic for my blog. ^_^ Pleasepleasepleaseplease!
January 1st, 2009 at 1:43 pm
Oh, and I forgot to repeat after you: Astrology doesn’t work. ^_^
January 1st, 2009 at 1:55 pm
Well, Phil, what can we expect? I still see Kevin Trudeau on the air every week. And not long ago, one of the major shopping channels had a line of John Edward merchandise.
People just don’t think. They don’t *want* to think. Which is frightening.
January 1st, 2009 at 2:06 pm
I’d love to be able to edit my comments. I hate having to write another comment to correct an earlier mistake.
Any chance that function could be added to readers comments ? Like they allow in certain forums ?
January 1st, 2009 at 2:34 pm
Have you heard the old joke about how Astrology was invented by Economists?
They got tired of being ridiculed for missing most of their predictions so they went and invented Astrology to have other people draw the ridicule.
January 1st, 2009 at 2:58 pm
I used to think astrology was just harmless fun (that’s why it’s in the comic section of the newspaper). But after reading the wise words of Phil, I now fully understand that not only is it just plain stupid, it can also be bloody dangerous.
A friend of a friend of mine informed her daughter that her new husband was “playing” around behind her back. Of course, when hubby was questioned he denied having any other relationships (this assured his guilt) and the newly married couple split up. Many months later it was revealed that the mother’s source of information was “can anyone guess” a psychic. Result, marriage destroyed and daughter now hates mother. (This, the psychic didn’t predict).
On the lighter side, during last years Australian Psychic Expo, a thief broke in to the main office and stole the weekends gate takings. I guess nobody saw that coming…..
I will never rest until I have educated everyone I know, that “ASTROLOGY DOESN’T WORK” and “PSYCHICS ARE WRONG”
January 1st, 2009 at 3:24 pm
I had fun analyzing an astrologers “Forensic Astrology” piece about a murder that had been committed in Seattle in 1991. She had done a great deal of research, not only into the victim’s detailed horoscope and charts for that day, but also posted some details about the likely murderer and even came up with a biographical sketch based on heavenly events and charts for Seattle on that terrible night. She was putting it out there in hopes of helping to solve the crime and bringing the murderer to justice.
It turned out that the murder had been solved five years ago using actual forensic science (true life CSI,) and the only match between her description and the actual murderer was the gender.
When the IAU demoted Pluto to “Dwarf Planet” status, NPR reported that astrologers were upset that they weren’t consulted. “It’s such a major change that affects our charting. We’re professionals. too, and should have had a say.” My response to that was “How would such a nominal change affect their charting?”
Too, too funny.
In case anybody is interested, I posted the Skeptic’s daily horoscope a long time ago. I was able to save quite a bit of time because I didn’t even need to consult any charts nor do any math:
Skeptical Daily Horoscope.
As true today as the day I first posted it.
January 1st, 2009 at 3:46 pm
I actually remember hearing this on the air and not believing my ears. Gross. Thanks for posting this.
January 1st, 2009 at 3:56 pm
Phil
I think you missed the reporter’s sign-off: “Returning to earth, I’m Mitchell Hartman for Marketplace.”
Definitely snarky.
January 1st, 2009 at 4:08 pm
“Tip o’ the phiuchus”?! Ouch my humerus.
January 1st, 2009 at 4:17 pm
I have a lot of friends who talk abut astrology constantly and I cringe every time I hear them blaming some mishap on Mercury being retrograde. They talk about it as commonly as they talk about the weather and IT DRIVES ME INSANE. I have lost friends even over voicing my anti-astrology position (I can’t say opinion, because hard astronomical data isn’t ‘opinion’), which to me just shows their hypocrisy — it’s ok for them to talk about their BS but the minute someone dissents they throw a hissy fit over it.
January 1st, 2009 at 4:20 pm
John McBryde gallantly warns us that astrology can be dangerous. This first became apparent when a group of astrologers assembled the first atomic bomb.
January 1st, 2009 at 4:26 pm
A couple of years ago, the USA Weekend section had a story about Pluto being demoted from planethood…and how it would affect your horoscope…under the “science” section.
And it is still online!
http://www.usaweekend.com/06_issues/060115/060115astrology.html
January 1st, 2009 at 4:29 pm
Oh, and the producers of Marketplace have done gag stories in the past. Their weekend show, Marketplace Money, has a feature called “A Day in the Work Life”. A couple of years ago, they did a day in the life of a wallet carrier, a guy who carried the wallet of a super rich guy. The whole story was a joke, but done in very serious deadpan that fooled a lot of people. Of course, this one aired the week of April 1st!
January 1st, 2009 at 4:32 pm
And Steve wins! We have the first totally ridiculous logical fallacy-based comment of 2009! Woooohooo!
Steve: Science is tool, and can be used for good or evil. If you take any medicine at all, then maybe you conveniently forgot to mention that. Wear glasses? Given CPR? Used a computer? Those came from science.
Modern astrology, on the other hand, has done nothing. Zip. Zilcharooni. Did astrologers predict the existence of Pluto, or extrasolar planets, or, really, anything?
January 1st, 2009 at 4:41 pm
So scientists have not been involved in the development of weapons of mass destruction? Astrology is only used for evil purposes while scientists only develop child-friendly technology? Thanks for straightening me out on this. Please forgive my temerity…and, my most egregious flaw, a sense of humor.
January 1st, 2009 at 4:59 pm
@Steve. I was gonna say, if that was a joke, your sense of humor sucks. But then I clicked your link. “Signs of Success: The Remarkable Power of Business Astrology.” BWAHAHAHAHAHAA. Good one, almost had milk coming out my nose.
January 1st, 2009 at 4:59 pm
I also hail from Australia. I have no scientific training but recognise bullsh*t when I see it. What has always struck me as odd is that I, like all Aussies, was born under the Southern Cross.
As I understand, it people in the Northern hemisphere cannot see the Cross, which make me think they cannot see many other constellations.
Yet, the loonies up here (that’s right not ‘down’ here), insist on listing the star signs which I presume people here cannot possibly be born under. Can someone please explain this to me.
Finally I was once again asked on NYE what star sign I was and gave my standard reply: ‘You tell me!’
January 1st, 2009 at 5:11 pm
Actually steve weapons of mass destruction have some positives. They stopped us having to invade japan and incur millions more casualties then we needed to and have also prevented large scale conflicts between the U.S and the Soviet union. The only reason we didn’t get conscripted into world war 3 is Mutually Assured Destruction.
That’s not to say nukes are good and it’s a horrible thought that we could all be obliterated one day but don’t underestimate the benefits to civilization brought on by these weapons.
January 1st, 2009 at 5:13 pm
@Steve
You missed the point of Phil’s comment. To reiterate, science is a tool, just like a hammer or a vise. It can be used to create “good” things, like medicines, electrical appliances and so on, and it can also be used to create “evil” things like bombs and poisons, just like a hammer could be used to build a home for someone just as much as it could be used to whack someone over the head.
If you feel that astrology is valid, then perhaps you could explain what people have achieved through astrology. I suggest you use sound, quality research to support any claims you might make, rather than anecdotes. Other than making money for the astrologer and giving false hopes (or fears) to the customer, what has astrology accomplished?
January 1st, 2009 at 5:13 pm
Hey, Pat. I’ll read your book if you’ll read mine…or would that be a time impediment to your uninformed and compulsive sense of derision? Or perhaps you don’t have a book, maybe just a couple thousand blog comments? By the way, that BWAHAHA and milk coming out of your nose line…funny and original both. I’m gonna run all my jokes by you in the future.
January 1st, 2009 at 5:26 pm
Whoa .. sniper central.
January 1st, 2009 at 5:26 pm
Todd – Astrology is not science, it is an art that to a considerable sense wraps itself up in the guise of science. If this offends you or other scientists so be it. But astrology is far more similar to painting or music or poetry than it is to physics. It is based upon very precise measurements and a demanding sense of structure to be sure, but there is always an air of the imaginative (not anywhere near the dirty word you think it is) about it. It’s purpose is to create intuitive connections, not to validate empirical realities. Think of an abstract painting or favorite song that may have once prompted an insight or a change of mood. For some people this makes their life richer and their time on earth a little more palatable. Contempt is hardly a worthy reaction from superior scientific beings. And by the way, Pat, the great turn of the century industrialist J.P. Morgan in a quote that has been quite adequately validated, once said “Millionaires don’t have astrologers. Billionaires do.”
January 1st, 2009 at 5:34 pm
Steve,
Define precise. That word can be vague and arbitrary. Precision doesn’t mean much if the output is abstract.
Another astrologer once did a drive by comment (she didn’t return to respond) and she claimed astrology was a science because it made predictions.
There seem to be an element in however astrology is described that hints at something scientific or analytical.
January 1st, 2009 at 5:36 pm
@Steve
So, astrology is just something that makes the recipient feel better, but has no real effect on the world or anything in it, beyond aesthetics, and has no predictive or real descriptive power. It is no better in offering advice than any other method, including plain old common sense or even guessing.
See, now, if more astrologers were just up front about it like that, I think the world would be a better place. Instead, the majority claim to be able to predict future events based on some supposed cosmic interaction between stars, planets and people (or corporations) on Earth.
January 1st, 2009 at 5:44 pm
@Steve
Since you acknowledge that astrology does nothing to validate itself empirically, then clearly there is no need to think it is effective in anyway.
I also suggest you take a look at the following link, you will find that scientific advancements (modern medicine, agriculture, mechanical innovation….etc) has done more to save lives than astrology
http://whatstheharm.net/astrology.html
January 1st, 2009 at 5:56 pm
I’m pretty sure Steve’s comments were meant in jest, I mean, why would an anti-science person be leaving comments on the (science created) internet.
Anyway Steve, happy new year mate, I’d wish you all the best for 2009, but since you already know what’s going to happen, I suppose that would be a bit pointless. (Now if I knew how to insert one of those smiley faces here, I would do so)
January 1st, 2009 at 5:57 pm
ND – I know I’m singing to the wrong choir here and I really don’t want to come off as blindly adversarial. Yet it has been my experience that scientists, despite the sancrosanct principles of the scientific method, are contemptuous of astrology without really having given it much investigative thought (they know it isn’t science, but they rarely stop to consider that it might have human worth as something else). The best astrologers, and they are a surprisingly learned and interesting bunch, are every bit as passionate about astronomy as are you likely. “Precise” indicates a respect for astronomical calculation that would likely astound you in its…well..precision. The trap that many astrologers fall into is that they start to think of themselves as scientists, when what they really are is intuitives deriving impressions from rigorous mathematical/astronomical calulations. Many astrologers are crappy mathematicians and others are crappy intuitives, but others are surpisingly gifted. What is personally sad to me is that the argument about astrology always degenerates into one of predictive accuracy, when what is uplifting about astrology is that in the hands of a decent practioner it has an air of seductive mystery about it, like the way you may feel while listening to your favorite song. So if you need to shoot me, do it because I think it’s okay to be a bit of a magic junkie as I pass through this life…I’ll accept that this is non-rational if you’ll accept that we might not solve the world’s problems merely because we own some digital calipers.
January 1st, 2009 at 6:33 pm
Astrology may be an art in the casting but it either works or it doesn’t. Why buy your book otherwise? If you can’t make predictions from Astrology what use is your book? If it is only to entertain I will buy Death From The Skies thank you very much.
January 1st, 2009 at 6:40 pm
Steve,
I’m a little confused by your description here. Are you saying astrologers do their own astronomical calculations? As far as I can tell, all the cut and dry astronomical calculations are done by, well, astronomers for anyone to use. Please explain to me what math astrologers need to do themselves today?
The issue that appears from your description is that, it starts out from precise calculations ends with vague intuitive feeling by the astrologer. You’re emphasizing use of precision and calculations and downplaying the predictive powers of astrology, something that those flocking to astrology are looking for.
There is a complete disconnect between the astronomical math used and the final psychological comfort people get astrology. It is indistinguishable from cold reading and guesswork. That is the issue.
January 1st, 2009 at 6:49 pm
The New Years party that I attended had a tarot reader available for the entertainment of guests. This might have been fun had he not been charging five dollars a go for it. He approached my gaggle of friends twice and was rebuked. The third time he asked why none of us were interested. When I told him he was “a fraud and a peddler of cheap superstition.”
He threatened to have me kicked out of the party.
Just goes to show.
January 1st, 2009 at 6:51 pm
Steve, did you read what I wrote, specifically the last paragraph? It’s as if I was predicting the future somehow when I wrote it.
Anyway, of course we dismiss astrology. That’s because we have tested it thoroughly, using the tests dreamed up by astrologers themselves, and it fails every time. If you didn’t read the link I provided I strongly urge you to. It links to studies showing precisely why I know that astrology doesn’t work.
January 1st, 2009 at 6:53 pm
Astrologers, palm readers, psychics…whatever. The problem isn’t them or the media. The issue here is with the people who pay them and believe they are getting more than just entertainment. Like any other commodity there has to be a buying market out there for this stuff…or it wouldn’t exist.
The solution to this is EDUCATION! People who know how the universe works….who have even a passable understanding of basic science will see these things for what they are…fantasy.
Then, if they want to pay for fantasy and entertainment, they can do so with the full understanding of what they’re getting.
January 1st, 2009 at 6:59 pm
Bottom line, whether you argue that astrology is an intuitive art, or a science (which it clearly is not) it just doesn’t work on any level, except as gambling. As one commenter noted, you may as well just guess, or if you are not content with guessing, ask an informed wiser person how to deal with a current financial, love, or gardening
.. issue or problem.
Consulting star charts in order to predict a life course is just a stupid line of reasoning, art or not. If it is art, then I can’t take it seriously either. Magic is an art too, but I know magicians are basically tricking the audience into believing something is real when it is not.
The major problem with all this is that the really gullible people, don’t even know how to differentiate between what some are arguing as art, or some as science. These gullible people then spend (throw away) money on astrologers, psychics, and other bunk, and the end result is usually disappointment.
If someone wishes to point to successful astrologers that made people rich, or got rich themselves, I will point in comparison to gamblers that sometimes get rich gambling or by using it to seduce others into gambling in order to make themselves rich, like a casino does.
If its an art, then I believe any success financially in astrology can be given the same merit as success in gambling. Yet we all know gambling is just chance, and most people lose.
Astrology is dangerous.
January 1st, 2009 at 7:06 pm
“what is uplifting about astrology is that in the hands of a decent practioner it has an air of seductive mystery about it, like the way you may feel while listening to your favorite song. “
If that’s the case, I’ll take David Bowie over an astrologist, any day.
““Precise” indicates a respect for astronomical calculation that would likely astound you in its…well..precision.”
But, Steve, what good are those “precise” calculations if they lead to nonsensical conclusions? I can make very precise measurements of the exact locations of the garden gnomes in my yard (which probably exert more gravitational pull on me than any of the distant planets) and then spin some yarn about how my day will be filled with profitable endeavors, or imminent death, or whatever. But there’s no relationship between the two. The quality of my measurements don’t matter…they just don’t have any connection to the forces and events that shape my day.
Maybe, maybe your horoscope might affect me psychologically, but, as you imply yourself, why not listen to a good piece of music, or looking at a beautiful painting, or do something that doesn’t try to layer itself in pseudoscience and self-importance?
January 1st, 2009 at 7:11 pm
I just finished reading Neil Tyson’s The Pluto Files today and I enjoyed his final words on astrology and its merits:
“Please tell your children to stay in school.”
January 1st, 2009 at 7:17 pm
Monty Python’s Flying Circus, “What the Stars Foretell” sketch:
[Mrs. O reads her horoscope.]
Mrs. O: “You have green, scaly skin, and a soft yellow underbelly with a series of fin-like ridges running down your spine and tail. Although lizard-like in shape, you can grow anything up to thirty feet in length with huge teeth that can bite off great rocks and trees. You inhabit arid, subtropical zones, and you wear spectacles.”
Mrs. Trepidatious: “It’s very good about the spectacles.”
Mrs. O: “It’s amazing!”
Richard Dawkins, The Enemies of Reason, “Slaves to Superstition”:
January 1st, 2009 at 7:30 pm
Actually, the Austrian-school economists such as Peter Schiff have seen this coming for years and have been trying to warn people about it. Look on YouTube and you’ll find videos of Schiff saying this and being beaten down by the other economists and panelists including Ben Stein.
The thing is, even after he was proven right, they’re STILL beating him down and not listening to him.
Look at these comments in Congress by Ron Paul back in 2005:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul282.html
The late Harry Browne was even predicting it on his radio show back in 2004. Anyone can verify this by listening to the show archives at HarryBrowne.org.
January 1st, 2009 at 8:00 pm
Marketplace has a history of doing “tongue in cheek” stories, I’m surprised so many people didn’t pick up on it. One of my favorites is “Free candy in every pot” from November 6, 2006. Pull it up on their website and read the text. Could this be real? Gee, I don’t think so. The audio for it is funny as hell. I thought the last line of the segment said it all.
January 1st, 2009 at 8:40 pm
The claim about astrology not trying to be a science is baloney. Of course it is. It makes claims that is has predictive power, and it’s testable. That’s what science does. The difference here is that for science discards claims that have been proven not to work. Astrology doesn’t do that at all. It just makes up excuses after the fact, which is a clear signal of pseudoscience. And as I point out in the link I provided in the post, it fails to do any better than random chance.
January 1st, 2009 at 8:58 pm
Oh, and you should check out some of Randi’s video too. Wasn’t there a video of Randi refuting astrology? Or am I mistaken and it is just a figment of my imagination or got source amnesia?
January 1st, 2009 at 10:26 pm
@ IBY,
Is this the one you mean?…
January 1st, 2009 at 10:41 pm
That was from a Nova episode about Randi, I think that is the first time I heard of him.
January 1st, 2009 at 11:06 pm
Astrology and Astronomy can co-exist. Astrology is not dangerous at all. Its a religion for those who believe in it and its fun for others. Each to his own. Spread both Astronomy and Astrology.
January 1st, 2009 at 11:18 pm
Here is at least 4 reasons amoung many other reasons why astrology should be opposed.
http://whatstheharm.net/astrology.html
January 1st, 2009 at 11:19 pm
Spread gardengnomeology!
January 1st, 2009 at 11:36 pm
spread debunkology.
January 2nd, 2009 at 12:52 am
Back to the original subject:
Marketplace’s piece on astrology.
They were being sarcastic.
They were implying that economists are no better than astrologers whan it comes to predicting the market. I always suspected Alan Greenspan managed his economic policies by reading sheep entrails. It would have made as much sense and be just about as accurate as whatever “science” is involved in predicting economic trends caused by the influences of greed and stupidity.
I heard the original broadcast, and thought it was one of the funniest pieces they have done recently. And ending it with a song by the B-52s is a sure sign of the story’s gravity. I did read the transcript, and it sounded more serious than the audio version. But that is why listening to George Carlin was always funnier than reading him. Delivery and timing don’t translate well to transcripts.
This is the “Serious” news show that plays ‘We’re in the Money’ when the market goes up; “Stormy Weather” when the markey goes down; and “It Don’t Mean a Thing if It Ain’t Got That Swing” when the market fluctuates.
Maybe American Public Media, PRI and NPR need to set off some sort of sarcasm or satire alarm when they do something like this again. Obviously they are overestimating their audience.
January 2nd, 2009 at 2:56 am
@kuhnigget: Plus points for voting Bowie > Astrology!
Yea, anybody who thinks that Astrology is to be viewed as an art like painting or music is deceiving themselves. Of course it’s not a science – that much is established. It also gives many people a pleasurable experience while reading it; much like a poem, it contains no real value except for the enjoyment of reading it and contemplating its implications – real or not.
HOWEVER, the reason Astrology is dangerous and – to me – evil, is that its practitioners insist that it is scientific, has predictive powers, and is “real”. Sure, there may be some astrologers that say it’s just for fun, but the point is that the evil astrologers have convinced millions of people, crushing their capacity for critical thinking, objective truth, and sound reasoning.
Give me a work of art, or genre, or whatever (aside from religious works) that has done the same, and I’ll submit and accept Astrology as an art form of equal or greater value.
January 2nd, 2009 at 4:33 am
Welcome to the club of public money misuse. Italian public TV/radio network Rai has been giving astrologers prime time prominence essentially forever. Rai also airs prime time conspiracy-biased moonhoax shows, and all sorts of conspiracy/pseudoscience crap.
January 2nd, 2009 at 6:16 am
Why not ask the Easter Bunny what he thinks while they’re at it?
Ask, and you shall receive.
January 2nd, 2009 at 7:19 am
Well now, I bet practitioners of haruspication feel slighted.
What about all those intrepid laborers who cast the runes or deal the tarot ?
January 2nd, 2009 at 7:39 am
So Astrology is about the same as reading Dear Abby/Ann Landers?
J/P=?
January 2nd, 2009 at 7:56 am
@ Steve: you have consistently moved the goalposts. Initially you poison the well and stack the deck, by linking science with the atomic bomb. Why choose a negative? How much good have astrologers done for human health, or instant communication…?
But as Phil points out, what people do with scientific knowledge is a different field to science. It’s called “ethics”. Scientists should, and do, take into account ethics, but this is not science.
After being roundly beaten by the other commentators here, it’s good to see you’ve since given up and now simply say astrology is another branch of art. Fine.
Anyway, speaking of books, here’s a free eBook (disclaimer: I’m a co-author) on fallacies you might like to read – Humbug! – the Skeptic’s Field Guide to Spotting Fallacies in Thinking. It could help you. Especially the bit on “Observational Selection”.
January 2nd, 2009 at 7:56 am
Dena DeCastros analyses of Obamas character and inclination would have been an interesting example of a “cold read” if it weren’t for the fact that we already knew all that from his behavior in his run up to the election and his actions since then. He’s thoughtful by astrological inclination? Well, all I have to say to that is,,DUH!!! His calm, centered, rational behavior is why I voted for the man in the first darned place and since I saw that 9 months ago, I suppose that makes me a good prognosticator,,,my advice for stock market investors is therefore to BUY LOW, SELL HIGH.
Now, please send money. I over spent this xmas,,,
GAry 7
January 2nd, 2009 at 8:14 am
This is an extract from James Randi’s Encyclopedia of Claims, Frauds, and Hoaxes of the Occult and Supernatural:
Rationalists: Click on my name to read the full article.
“Woo-woo” Astrologists : Just suck your thumb and twiddle your ear-lobe with the other hand.
January 2nd, 2009 at 8:47 am
@ Ivan:
Maybe it’s in the full article somewhere, or I’ve missed the nuance in your clip from Randi’s piece, but I think the origins of astronomy/astrology were as simple as early farmers noting that the appearance of a particular star or asterism coincided with the change of seasons, and hence became a handy reference for knowing when to plant their crops. There was no predictive power associated with the stars…they were just readily available and relatively unfailing calendars.
For that reason, I think it is more appropriate to say that astrology descended from astronomy (however basic it might have been), rather than the other way around, or, as Randi seems to put it, that the two descended from some common astrological discipline.
January 2nd, 2009 at 9:11 am
@IVAN3MAN
Yes, that is it!
January 2nd, 2009 at 9:24 am
IVAN3MAN: Loved the video link. I saw another professional magician do the same thing but he went international with it, traveling the globe to give identical “astrological readings” to groups of five people. No matter the tribe, all were flamboozled by the “accuracy” of “their” reads and were somewhat perturbed to learn they were all identical.
Carl Jung invented “Synchronicity” to describe things that happen at the same time that are not causally related. These are those co-incidental occurrences that imply a pattern, which is what we ‘re so good(???) at finding in nature however, like astrology, they are not replicable and therefore have no significance, kinda like cold fusion. I expect many of us have had the feeling there was someone invisible looking over our shoulders or “heard” a voice in our heads(the source of telepathy and spiritism) but since they are not replicable, we cannot determine if they have any validity. Thus they are not subject to the scientific method, which, as I and others have repeatedly expostulated, is the ONLY methodology humanity has ever developed that consistently allows us to manipulate our material reality. Maybe someday we’ll inculcate that methodology into every child from birth, so they don’t end up thinking Science is “too hard”,,,
Well, I can hope, can’t I?
GAry 7
January 2nd, 2009 at 10:11 am
Phil, it was sarcasm, a joke, played very well and obviously over the heads of quite a few people, yourself included.
Fear not though, lots goes over this particular head, including a very good April Fools joke here on CBC a few years back that had a well-known host interview “Jimmy Carter” and insult him.
January 2nd, 2009 at 10:50 am
I think astrology does make one prediction that regularly comes true – the prediction that there will always be another sucker.
January 2nd, 2009 at 11:47 am
@Steve – I think the others are being mean. I think you’re really awsome and totally smart. And I’d like to sell you a premise which will make – no, not millions, but billions, at a fraction of the price. It’s called “The Remarkable Power of Creationism in Business”. Price to you: $500K. Send the check to Phil. I’ll get it right to you.
And Phil – you can forgo sending me the check, donate it to one of those ridiculous planetariabums which needs one of dem dar bigexpensive overhead projectors.
Steve – ARE YOU KIDDING??? No, don’t answer that, I’d have to have to sieze up again today.
January 2nd, 2009 at 12:27 pm
# whb03 Says:
No, don’t answer that, I’d have to have to sieze up again today.
Another Carpe Diem?
J/P=?
January 2nd, 2009 at 12:46 pm
“Kai Ryssdal: Seeing as how none of the experts seem to have a real handle on the forces moving this economy, and no one is doing a particularly good job of predicting how it’s all going to turn out next year, we figured why not try another prediction racket altogether?”
“ANOTHER PREDICTION RACKET”
Now I ask you how serious is that?
Now there are seriously written complaints on APM’s website, undoubtedly instigated by Phil. There was a certain knee-jerk reaction with this topic which I find alarming. Phil missed the point and suddenly there is a flood of “Skeptics” grabbing pitchforks and torches. Add to this some schmuck defending astrology because he has a book to sell and we have the internet equivalent of a food fight.
This is a serious problem, folks. If we are rationalists and skeptics, shouldn’t we be a little more open-eyed?
If you want to see “wholly gullible, credulous, and ridiculous,” take a peek in the mirror. You were fooled and led a lot of people with you.
“Men at some time are masters of their fates: The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves.” – Shakespeare: Julius Caesar (Act I, Scene II).
January 2nd, 2009 at 2:50 pm
hmmm… dozens of commenters and only two in favor of keeping astrology, pretty unbiased, and as a skeptic, I personally find quite a few of these comments distasteful and hypocritical. The tone and tenor of these comments are remarkably similar to the ones at Conservapedia.
I’d like to see a good faithful debate on both sides without the emotions, the name calling and below-the-belt fish-market style sarcasm. Having grown up in a culture where astrologers are consulted on pretty much EVERY major decision in life, having grown up in a culture where a secular science based education is considered paramount to EVERYTHING else, including religion, and having grown up in a generation (not culture, this one) that prides itself on being part of or at least aware of the broader scientific and technological advances, I can offer some decent points of view on astrology as an amateur astronomer, physics enthusiast and culture-language hobbyist. THIS IS NOT A JUSTIFICATION OF ANY SORT – JUST PROVIDING PEOPLE HERE WITH SOME DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES ON ASTROLOGY that I grew up learning and hearing about.
1. There ARE different flavors of astrology that are VERY different from one another. Vedic astrology for example, uses techniques and assumptions that are different from Chinese astrology which in turn is different from the so-called “Western” astrology. For those who claim otherwise, I suggest you pick up a good book on vedic astrology (relax, no offense intended).
2. Vedic astrology does consider nine major celestial bodies, but not the NINE ‘PLANETS’. Sun, Mercury, Venus, Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn and two ‘Invisible’ bodies or shadow planets. These last two, called Rahu and Ketu, are simply mathematical calculations: Rahu is the Lunar Ascending node (the point where the moon crosses the ecliptic moving northwards) and Ketu is the Lunar Descending node (the point where the moon crosses the ecliptic moving southwards). The reason I’m trying to describe these in at least some detail is because this is an astronomy blog and this particular topic does concern the work of the original astronomers. Don’t insult them. And no, there’s no Pluto or Uranus or Neptune (they couldn’t be seen with the naked eye).
(A quick google search on Rahu and Ketu gave me this link: http://users.hartwick.edu/hartleyc/rahu.htm . I think somebody here is familiar with this person’s work)
3. Regarding precision, I agree that astrological predictions are not accurate in the scientific sense. To say that astrology doesnt work because its predictions dont hold up against scientific scrutiny is just plain ignorance, at least to a purist. Astrology is not Science: it’s a combination of science and poetry. It IS based on sound mathematics and basic astronomy. The results of these calculations are given a very human interpretation. It’s called a metaphor. I personally find this to be very beautiful. To some, it’s like appreciating poetry – it takes an open mind and a relaxed mindset to savour these. The astrologer I consult is not some ‘woo-woo’ astrologer (to quote some of the smarter arguments here). The last time I visited him, he asked me for my time and date of birth. He asked me for my place of birth and consulted the only table he had to get the latitude and longitude. He then proceeded to calculate, using pencil and paper, the position of Jupiter and Saturn at that time, at the present time, and their locations in different houses years into the future – all in a matter of minutes. It was precise. (And people, I bet he’s a lot smarter with his math and a lot more tolerant than most of you folks).
In one of the original Indian texts on the subject, Brihat Parasara Hora Sastra, all of this – the astronomy and the metaphors are described in great detail. Find and read a clean version of that text if you are really honest. Phil, at least you should find this and read it – it takes patience to digest names of a different culture, but without this sort of honesty, this blog and the comments will eventually start to resemble The O’Reilly Factor – the main guy and his supporters.
Regarding the ‘HOW’, there is no mention in the original texts of just ‘how’ the celestial bodies affect life here on earth. No talk of gravity, no talk of magnetism, and certainly no talk of mysterious forces hitherto unknown to science – I’ve never come across them. Hindu philosophy is based on a simple all pervasive principle – that everything in the universe follows the same pattern which manifests itself differently in different ‘entities’ – dont jump on the word entity, it seems to be the closest translation of the appropriate Sanskrit word. (You may have come across versions of this: ‘What happens in the micro, happens in the macro’, and other such phrases: comparisons of the atom to the Solar system, etc, etc). Vedic astrology then tried to discern this pattern from the positions of celestial bodies, which seemed to be more or less regular and tried to predict what that ‘pattern’ meant for humanity or for individuals. The actual argument is much more profound and very beautiful. And no, this isn’t something my astrologer cooked up because he saw modern astronomy as a threat to his livelihood. Consult a good copy of the Vedas, the Upanishads and you’ll find references to this idea.
For those wondering how a society that prides itself on science based education consults astrologers regularly, I honestly dont know. If nothing else, it’s just routine – mechanical so to speak, to consult an astrologer on selecting good wedding dates, investment decisions, etc. It’s a tradition here, whether people believe it or not.
Finally, unlike most issues (eg. religion VS science), astrology seems to be the one topic where a LOT of people on the fence can indeed be convinced to go one side or the other completely. I dont know the true origins of astrology. At some point, people forgot the real philosophy behind astrology – but it’s out there, if you know and really intend to look. Show some respect kids, and stop clubbing Western and Eastern cultures.
January 2nd, 2009 at 4:29 pm
Thor said,
That is something any free astronomy software can do for you in a matter of microseconds, so that’s not impressive. Its just calculations that anyone who has taken a high school calculus or physics class can do.
Then you said,
The key word here is “predict,” and I’m glad you used it. You also said one needs “an open mind,” and empasized the word “poetry.”
Astrology is a wooly discipline, attempting to legitimatize an imaginary connection with stars and planets to people on Earth by wrapping it in a little bit of real science. Regardless of how it started, astrology today is used to predict people’s lives, sometimes dangerously, and it is an insult to real science. There is no means of physical connection between the planets and people, and the “predictions” that astrology make are worse (or no better) than random chance.
Next time I go to an art gallery, or play, or music festival, I’ll ask some of the “real artists” what they think of astrology, in regards to it being “poetry.” I’d bet that some of them would find astrology to be insulting to their art as well.
January 2nd, 2009 at 4:59 pm
@ Gary 7: This is the video you are referring to I think. It’s called the Forer Effect.
And it’s good to see Thor agrees with Steve. Astrology is akin to Art at best and one should read into it, in terms of guessing one’s future, no more than you’d read into the feeling you get listening to Beethoven, 50 Cent or Metallica, or looking at a pretty picture.
January 2nd, 2009 at 5:10 pm
Thor,
The precision and calculation issue does not factor into it unless it can be proven that the position of the planets have actual impact or influence to us humans in ways other than psychological.
I’m skeptical of your skepticism. When you say he calculated on a piece of paper, did you understand the math he was doing? How was he doing his calculations? Were you just taking him at his word about what he was doing? And when you say precise, how precise? Several degrees? around one degree?
“It IS based on sound mathematics and basic astronomy. The results of these calculations are given a very human interpretation. ”
This emphasis on math and the astronomical base is a complete red herring. This human interpretation is the issue.
“The astrologer I consult is not some ‘woo-woo’ astrologer (to quote some of the smarter arguments here).”
There have been smarter arguments put forth in this post and the rest of the blog. You selectively quoted something that’s not even an argument. You’re ignoring the arguments that have gone to the heart of the issue with astrology.
You’re trying to have it both ways, just like Steve earlier, in that astrology is a predictive tool and yet an untestable metaphor.
I’m also skeptical of Thor, the posting sounds awfully lot like Steve.
January 2nd, 2009 at 5:16 pm
On new years eve here in Australia they had an astrology thing on A Current Affair (I always knew they where dodgy)… And I couldn’t believe it!!
To make it worse nearly all the stuff they were spouting I could have told you. All it takes would be to look at the last wks tabloids and celeb news news and I could have told you Brad Pitt would have a successful year and maybe an award! Or that Obama was going to have a tough time this year and needs to concentrate on the takes ahead…blah, blah, blah. And the horoscopes were so generic as to be laughable. Always hitting the big 3. money, work and relationships….
Help me now!!!
January 2nd, 2009 at 5:42 pm
I saw the same story Andy and it drew the same response in me. *cry*
January 2nd, 2009 at 6:39 pm
Thor also said,
Perhaps you’d would be happier reading a different blog. Most of these comments say the same thing about astrology as they say about ghosts, ufos, and other paranormal activity. If you can prove to us, with actual studies on the accuracy of astrological predictions, that astrology really works, please do so.
What Phil and most everyone else here wants you to do is learn to think critically. Don’t you think if astrology really worked the way other things work (semiconductors, for example, or car batteries) then it would be more widely accepted?
January 2nd, 2009 at 6:42 pm
If astrology is akin to art, then why don’t they advertise on the internet and on television to:
“Call right now for a Poetry reading. Only $1.99 per minute!”
January 2nd, 2009 at 7:00 pm
hehe… I’m not Steve – would upmod you if I could. I’m not promoting any book here. I’m not sure he did so either. I think you guys read my post awfully fast. For my part, I tried to cram in too many things into a small comment. I apologize for the brevity. This happens all too often.
While the main post was about APM and its views on Astrology, discussions and debates on the topic tend to cover too many points of view too quickly, just like debates on the merits or demerits of religion. In the latter, the biggest issue is that religion is not very well defined. For a lot of people, religion means spirituality – meditation, exercise, a constant appreciation for the beauty of world, real true love for everything and everyone. They get annoyed and insulted when atheists club them together with people who interpret the Bible or the Koran literally. When debating on something that personal, it becomes necessary to give people the space they need to let them explain themselves: in arguments regarding religion, different people have different views of God – ones markedly different from the Abrahamic one. I could go on. The point is you shouldn’t slap them in the face saying that they are filibustering – sometimes an argument needs to be elaborated by providing the right context. I hope that explains to some level, why there is a need for a deliberate discussion on astrology, where everyone makes their viewpoint clear.
The point I tried to make earlier was that there is a completely different point of view of Astrology that I guess 99% of the people here in the West are not aware of, but large populations in other parts of the world take for granted.
The reason I made the reference to my astrologer was in the hope that you would agree or realize that many astrologers aren’t cunning conniving folks expounding ideas just to rip people off. These are good people with a good understanding of celestial mechanics. The feeling that comes to mind for most people when astrology is mentioned is the one I get when I think of a wild psychic in front of some crystal ball – that’s not the case. (Greg, It IS impressive that high school students in Austin can predict planetary conjunctions in different houses 15 years into the future based on the time and location of birth using high school calculus. You and I went to very different schools, buddy).
Regarding predicability, again, this is NOT a science and I said so earlier. I dont buy lottery tickets based on what my astrologer says. That’s not how astrology works. Read a good book that explains the differences between astrology and psychic reading: they are NOT subtle. And don’t club the two. Millenia ago, when astrology was developed, science, philosophy and spirituality were the same – or at least slightly different facets of the same object. People back then developed good techniques (without free software) to compute the positions of various celestial bodies in the different houses. I argue that that part of it WAS science – observing the motions of celestial bodies for a very long time, they did a lot of good astronomy. Where it deviates from the current scientific method, was the prediction part. There are plenty of good books and online references that explain how these calculations are done. Feel free to explore. It wasn’t intended to be a red herring.
Predicting natural disasters based on the positions of celestial bodies was NOT a science. There are many astrologers who claim likewise. I maintain that it still is an art that uses good mathematics, and like poetry, can be appreciated and savoured. I’m not going to stretch that last analogy further. If used wisely, astrology can be appreciated and people can be given hope. Any tool that has a large audience can be used for good or bad. For my part, I just hope these discussions on any forum can be kept civil. Any way, need to get back to a book I was reading. Will join again later.
January 2nd, 2009 at 7:47 pm
Thor,
You’re still impressed with and emphasize the mathematical precision and prowess of astrologers and that is not the issue. You’re talking about the math and the hope people can get but not the actual prediction phenomenon where the real issue is.
January 2nd, 2009 at 7:55 pm
I read what you are saying Thor.
I see the poetic value and its merits in certain cultural values, and you agree it is not a science as such. I also see what you mean by its comparison to religion also. I could also maybe talk about certain superstitious beliefs like black cats crossing your path, witches on broomsticks, horseshoes over doorways as pertaining to some sort of cultrual value in some part of the world also. These things have a romantic fascination and are widely used in poetic circles, even in a religious sense.
However they are bunk. Luck is not a real force. Black cats are black cats, and having a knowlege of celestial mechanics, however vauge, does not give value to a superstitious interpretation of it, which astrology does. If it’s kept in the realm of fiction, fine, but for many it is given a real meaning, in such a way that many people actually believe that it has a real physical effect on us on this planet, that it affects their decisions and choices.
Yeah, it has cultural, historical, poetic and romantic merits, but beyond that is has no real meaning. You agree it is not a science. It is those that attempt to succor people into believing that it does, that many critical thinking people stand in defense of. They value the idea that the danger it imposes outweighs its other merits. For example, and this is a vague analogy: gambling can be fun, but the danger of losing all your money and becoming addicted is seen by many to out-weigh the fun part. So with that in mind, many decide gambling is just wrong, and dangerous. (I realise that analogy is a bit off but I hope you get my point)
Really it is those that preach the idea that astrology is a science, or a tool for helping you decide where your life should lead as the ones that I believe many people here are trying to debunk. There are many ways you can look at astrology, I agree, but it definitely does not work as a real and accurate way to determine who you are or how you should live, or who you should marry. I believe you are not talking about those issues.
January 2nd, 2009 at 8:27 pm
@ the big manly man with the hammer:
“hmmm… dozens of commenters and only two in favor of keeping astrology, pretty unbiased, and as a skeptic, I personally find quite a few of these comments distasteful and hypocritical.”
Dozens against + two for = bias? Why not, overwhelming evidence against trumps underwhelming evidence for?
As for being distasteful and hypocritical, again…why? Because bunk is being called bunk? Because aptitude for mathematics is not being accepted as a means to predict the future?
A rose by any other name doth smell as sweet. Vedic, tantric (now that would be something!), or whatever, astrology is a stinking rose.
January 2nd, 2009 at 8:33 pm
Someone is casting Obama’s horoscope?
In the roman empire, casting the Emperor’s horoscope was a capital crime. That is one law we ought to bring back.
January 2nd, 2009 at 9:23 pm
Ahhh, kuhnigget… I was wondering when you would readdress this issue with your kind words.
Did I say “kind?” I meant brutal. Carry on!
January 2nd, 2009 at 11:07 pm
@ Greg:
Even biased, snarky, close-minded, hypocrites (and distasteful, too!) have to take a break now and then.
Besides, I was dealing with a Michael Horn/Billy Meier clone over on another site.
January 3rd, 2009 at 1:59 am
As the owner of the Australian Psychic Expo I can assure you that we have never been broken into. Your story is just wrong – yet another concocted inaccuracy designed to try to discredit those with a metaphysical bent.
It is my fervent hope that my psychics don’t repeat that which your writer John McBride is guilty of: plain old lying.
John Gold
January 3rd, 2009 at 9:29 am
Ah, but John, the real question is, Did you see it coming?
January 3rd, 2009 at 1:48 pm
@quasidog : I certainly agree that astrology, like most major religions has a strong hold on the major decisions people make in their lives, especially in Eastern cultures (and I’m talking about billions of people). And YES, a more rational approach to making these decisions is most desirable. Absolutely. So, if the question is whether this can be used as to predict future events (tsunamis, divorces, lottery), the answer is a resounding NO. It cannot.
If the question is whether the same tool be used to predict eclipses, planetary conjunctions (I know many here hate this word), and other slightly more complicated phenomena, YES. It Can. I am not suggesting that this is astrophysics, or that it can be used to predict the evolution of stars, or that it can be used to detect planets beyond Pluto, none of that.
The point that I’ve been trying to convey (albeit poorly) is that some astrological systems do involve some pretty serious computation and thus should NOT be clubbed together with psychics or crystal balls. When it is used the way it is in the West, then it acquires a wholly different, just nasty flavor.
Your analogy was pretty good. Gambling is fun. Gambling can probably make you filthy rich, with emphasis on ‘probably’. But to make career decisions based on what you might make off of gambling is just unwise. Same goes with astrology. I dont know about anyone here, but if somebody told me that the gambling machine used some beautiful mathematical formula or some brilliant algorithm to generate its output, I’d be more than willing to give the machine itself greater consideration. If an entire culture was based around that machine, I’d give that machine more respect, than say, dice. This is NOT an endorsement of the idea that you can base your life’s major decisions around the machine’s output. I hope I haven’t stretched your analogy too much.
And a related but different point that I tried to make is that this system is deeply rooted into several cultures. So, although astrology is NOT science, it needs to be treated as a source of different cultures and thus holds a deeper anthropological value. This is why it needs to be studied deeply and not clubbed together with say, what Sylvia Browne does. Or even Linda Goodman. And the different systems of astrology need to be treated differently. If I may, let me throw in another analogy. Look at the Swastika. It’s a VERY sacred symbol in the east. It’s VERY old and has a lot of symbolic meaning. It has a cultural identity of its own that for the most part, is distinct from the religions that use it, and deserves to be respected as such. It has also been borrowed and abused and much maligned. So should it be discarded just because it is held in so much contempt this side of the world? If you look at original descriptions of this symbol – what it represents, again : beautiful. Is it ‘TRUE’??? In one sense, that doesn’t mean much. But I’ll end the comparison there.
Side story 1: In many cultures, astrology is used to guide people into making decisions. If your “horoscope says that your immediate future does not look very favorable, it might be advisable to hold off on putting that much money into that other business”. It does not tell what business to invest in, who you SHOULD get married to, etc. The recommended use of astrology in cultures based on that system is to reveal ‘the path’ – the ups and downs and possible bumps, and not to reveal particulars on the road. If you read more about how it is used in many places in the east, you’ll find this ‘guiding light’, ‘contour map’ concept is true, and that it is not used like a GPS tool. Should it even be used as a contour map when it is not? That is the real issue in most people’s minds. Suffice to say, if I love someone and I want to marry her, I will, regardless of what my horoscope says. Same goes for business investments. People are quite practical regarding that.
Side story 2: Several years ago, in India, where astrology is BIG, major astrology groups wanted the ruling (Hindu) party to include astrology in University curriculums. You’d think that in a country where major personal decisions are made after consultation with astrologers, this might have been received positively. It was rejected overwhelmingly. On average, the hold astrology has is not as bad as you might think. People are smart. They know the difference between physics and metaphysics, between the practical and the supernatural. Well, at least in India. Thankfully.
The difficulty in seeing it akin to other forms of art is understandable. It’s just too weird to say they are alike. But then again, most Hindu and Buddhist scriptures are written as long poems, and Western scholars are attracted and excited by this. Well, most anyway. I hope this clears up why I think astrology deserves to be studied.
People need to travel a lot, read a lot and go easy on the sarcasm (not directed at everyone).
Now… need to go get some Iranian paintings… Bagher Aghamiri anyone?
January 3rd, 2009 at 3:09 pm
Elyse: I’m sure as with everything else, your mileage may vary. Oh, and you’re very MILF-tastic! ;^)
They did have pretty easy labors, only a couple of hours or so. I’m sure someone going through 30 hours of back labor deserves all the painkillers she can get—before and after the procedure! (And probably the husband, too…)
January 3rd, 2009 at 3:26 pm
You know, I never really thought about whether the term MILF is demeaning or sexist or objectifying or anything, but this discussion has gotten me thinking, and I’m thinking that it might actually be a good thing.
For far too long, our society has been obsessed with youth and beauty. Along with this has come the idea (which I’ve never subscribed to) that you stop being desirable once you have kids. Think of all the women who say having kids will “ruin my figure” or whatever.
The term MILF is a reversal of all of that. It says that women who have had children can be, and are, sexually desirable.
And, let’s face it, in very many cases it’s absolutely true. I think the PC-fundies do more harm than good by attacking the language; without the language, you have no idea of who thinks what. Making it unacceptable to say “the n-word” did nothing to stop racism, because racism was never in the word; it was in the thoughts, feelings, and actions of the person saying the word.
It’s a bit like someone looking at a murder committed with a firearm and blaming the ivory grip on the gun.
January 3rd, 2009 at 3:36 pm
Thor,
The term conjunction is used in astronomy. This makes me wonder how much you actually understand science and astronomy specifically.
You seem to be enamored with precise calculations and formulas and misunderstand that this somehow adds credibility to astrology. And I really don’t have much else to say about it.
If a gambling machine used “some beautiful mathematical formula or some brilliant algorithm”, it’s most likely designed to cheat you better.
Can you give us an example of the prediction/advice/poetry your astrologer gave you and how you used that in real life?
January 3rd, 2009 at 3:39 pm
“If the question is whether the same tool be used to predict eclipses, planetary conjunctions (I know many here hate this word), and other slightly more complicated phenomena, YES. It Can.”
NO, it cannot. People “predicting” eclipses, planetary conjunctions and other slightly more complicated phenomena are using mathematics and astronomical physics. That some choose to cloak those scientific “tools” in fantasy does not change the nature of the tools, but rather reflects upon the mindset (and/or cultural background) of the ones using them.
Astrology may be a form of art. But art cannot make scientific predictions without incorporating science. Strip away the science, and you’re left with pretty words, pictures, fairytales, whatever you choose to call them.
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:15 pm
Jupiter’s passed through Orion,
And come into conjunction with Mars.
Saturn is wheeling through infinite space,
To its pre-ordained place in the stars.
And I gaze at the planets in wonder,
At the trouble and time they expend.
All to warn me to be careful,
In dealings involving a friend!
Flanders & Swann
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:16 pm
kuhnigget
I know I posted a reply to Thor’s latest posting but it wasn’t worth it. He’s not going to get it. He’s in his own walled off world.
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:23 pm
@ ND:
Sadly, there are lots of people in there with him.
January 3rd, 2009 at 8:28 pm
ND,
When I mentioned conjunction, I tried to indicate that most people here would view its usage in the context of astrology with more than mild annoyance.
I’ve repeatedly said that astrology is more than just prediction, although it is associated with that. What’s wrong with being enamored with precision and math, especially with something so closely associated with metaphysics? And even if the gambling machine is designed to cheat you better and it does a good job at it, wouldn’t you be interested in knowing how it does that? I would.
Kuhnigget, astrology has two components, the mathematics/celestial mechanics part AND the interpretation/’prediction’ part. They are separate modules, so to speak. You do one, and then the other. There’s no “cloaking” here, at least not with true astrologers – the ones that do the math themselves and then give the results some meaning or other. This is unlike most astrologers here in the west, who use software to compute everything they need and give it their interpretation.
Once again (I’ve said this in my previous comments too), this IS an ART when you understand what it is. THIS is NOT SCIENCE. It is NOT used to predict supernovae. And my comparison to poetry was with Eastern (Vedic) astrology which are written in excellent poetic verses.
January 3rd, 2009 at 9:34 pm
Deuteronomy 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
18:12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
Isaiah 47:13 Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee.
47:14 Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.
January 3rd, 2009 at 10:58 pm
@ Thor:
“astrology has two components, the mathematics/celestial mechanics part AND the interpretation/’prediction’ part. They are separate modules, so to speak. You do one, and then the other. There’s no “cloaking” here, at least not with true astrologers – the ones that do the math themselves and then give the results some meaning or other.”
The trouble, Thor, is that there is no connection between your separate modules. You keep dodging that key point. The “meanings” you attach to the positions of the planets are fiction. Poetic, maybe, but still utterly make-believe.
You could just as easily turn the mathematics of the solar system into a sculpture. No matter how artistic it might be, it still would not represent a connection between the position of the planets and the lives of anyone on Earth.
I suppose you could make that sculpture abstract enough that people could “interpret” it however they want (just like astrologers use generalizations to make their text seem applicable to any reader who happens to read it). You could also claim that it somehow affects the events in their lives (noted, usually, after the fact), but the fact remains that the position of the planets do not physically affect anyone’s lives. If someone is being influenced by astrology, it is because they are being psychologically manipulated by a human being…NOT a planet.
And it matters not one whit if a person uses software or their own brain to do the math. Once they make the assertion that their calculations can explain the affect of some force that influences the lives of human beings, they are engaging in bunk.
@ I.P. Freeley:
1) cut your dosage of Flomax and that might help
2) The Old Testament isn’t exactly consistent in its attitudes toward divination, is it? It’s not that Yaweh doesn’t like people seeing the future, he just doesn’t want them seeing it clearly. I mean, c’mon…John’s revelations are just a little on the wiggy side. They make even the modern astrology b.s. seem positively sane.
January 4th, 2009 at 2:39 am
Thor,
You keep throwing at us, math and precision as used by astrologers to give credibility to astrology. It doesn’t. The crux of astrology has to do with prediction (the second part you mention), however vague, as influenced by the position of heavenly bodies. It’s irrelevant how accurate the math is.
“the ones that do the math themselves”. How does doing the math by hand differ than using software? The math gives you the same positions regardless of whether it’s done by hand or software. With software, you’ve removed human error in from the computation.
I can no longer tell if Thor is a troll or honestly confused. Do you understand the calculus the high school students you mentioned in a previous post? After reading your posts it appears that you seem quite dazzled by all the math and “precision” without really understanding it’s details.
January 4th, 2009 at 3:47 am
@Thor
Sure it can be studied for historical and cultural value. No problem. I see your point.
I see what you are saying but suggesting astrology can be used in cultures to predict astronomical events .. well … why cant we just use something better … like astronomy? It more accurate. That’s like saying that we should give value to alchemy because it still exists in some Cultures and did in the past like astrology, when we clearly need to keep it in the realm of historical and romantic value and just use chemistry instead.
Alchemy > Chemistry ……. Astrology > Astronomy
Again I must insist, and I am sure you do, that astrology can only be used for historical and poetic value, as a study of culture. Anything beyond this is infringing upon rationality. Astrology is only similar to astronomy because they both use the sky and star positions. Beyond that astrology attempts to predict things. If it is tying to predict where a star is going to be, that is just astronomy, or if it tries to predict when a planetary conjunction will occur (astronomy uses the word too, I have no issue with it) that is also astronomy. If it tries to predict when a tsunami is going to be, that is just garbage.
I see value in studying it for the same reason I see value in studying why Alchemy was used the past, (to turn lead into gold .. which doesn’t work) for historical reasons, or cultural reasons, or romantic poetic reasons. In fact I find the study of Babylonian Astrology fascinating, due to how well they knew the sky and how well in advance they could predict where planets would be, and also because that is believed to be where astrology was born. It is a fascinating subject.
Again, if someone tries to use it to make financial and relationship decisions for themselves or others, then it just becomes laughable, almost akin to watching someone attempt to turn lead into gold using ancient alchemy techniques. … except that would be less harmful.
January 4th, 2009 at 3:58 am
correction …..
Alchemy < Chemistry …. Astrology < Astronomy
I had my ‘less than’ sign around the wrong way .. doh
January 4th, 2009 at 8:19 am
Glad you made that correction, Quasi….I was had my rolled-up newspaper ready to whack you one…
January 6th, 2009 at 3:53 am
I read your article with interest and it was clear to see that you have no scientific training. To state that there are only four fundamental forces governing the universe, which you base your arguement on, is not necassarily correct. It would be better to state recognised forces as we do not have all the answers yet. That being so, your whole arguement becomes flawed.
I do not believe that astrology works but professional debunkes do more harm than good as they try too hard and always cross the boundries into a “swamp gas” explanation or end up using psuedo-science. Then to use the biggest fraud on the planet James Randi, further weakens your case. This is pure lazy journalism, but what we have come to expect from this corrupt industry.
January 6th, 2009 at 11:04 am
@Roy Parker,
You said,
What other fundamental forces in the universe did you learn about in your physics class? If you don’t agree that the Strong, Electromagnetic, Weak and Gravity forces are the only ones, please educate us on your alternatives. And show your work. If you try to weasel out and say, “We don’t know yet,” then you have no argument. Until you can provide evidence of some “unknown” force here, then we’ll just stick with what we can prove.
Roy also said,
Yes, and seatbelts cost more lives than they save. Where is your evidence that debunkers do any harm at all? Is it harmful to educate people?
January 7th, 2009 at 9:06 am
Roy Parker
Stating that there are forces out there we don’t know of is usually a springboard for justifying things such as astrology. I’m led to believe by your comments that you may actually believe in astrology or of the many pseudo-science topics out there. You’ve made very strong accusations and without giving examples or backing them up. Your post is very reactionary. Can you give some examples of how Randi is a fraud? I suppose a magician or a mentalist could be framed as a fraud since they’re not really doing what they claim they’re doing in front of you
January 7th, 2009 at 9:08 am
Also,
Yesterday Market Place talked about their astrology segment and how they got letters about it and that there was contraversy online and how that it was actually humor
They phrased it as “There’s astronomy … there’s astrology …. and there’s humor.”
January 7th, 2009 at 9:14 am
@ND
Aha..ha..ha. Courtesy laugh for the station.
January 7th, 2009 at 9:14 am
then again, Roy could be trolling
“I read your article with interest and it was clear to see that you have no scientific training.”
January 8th, 2009 at 12:54 am
Roy .. how is Randi a Fraud .. when he is debunking fraudulent claims other people make? In what way is he a fraud? How is exposing flaws in logic being a fraud? How is exposing frauds make one a fraud?
Your entire post makes little sense.
January 12th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
You can laugh all you want as I laugh all the way to the bank.
.
I’m a professional astrologer who knew the market was going to tank in ’08. I took all my money out of the stockmarket in the summer of ’08 and saved myself thousands of dollars in losses.
Its all invested in 5% CD’s now and I’m very happy
January 12th, 2009 at 5:32 pm
Astrologer: yes, and you wrote it on a website so it must be true!
January 12th, 2009 at 9:52 pm
@Astrologer,
If you are indeed a professional astronomer, and did indeed know that the market was going to tank before it did, then why did you put money in the stock market in the first place? Or better yet, why didn’t you buy the stocks that were going to make money 10 years ago? Or for THAT matter, why would you pull your money out now, when stocks will be at their lowest? Now’s the time to buy if you really want to make money, right? RIGHT?
Of course, you have verifiable proof that you knew before 2008 that the stock market was going to tumble in 2008? And the same method you used to determine that information has NEVER been wrong, is that correct? Or it at least has been right more times than from random chance, right?