If you are indeed a professional astronomer, and did indeed know that the market was going to tank before it did, then why did you put money in the stock market in the first place? Or better yet, why didn’t you buy the stocks that were going to make money 10 years ago? Or for THAT matter, why would you pull your money out now, when stocks will be at their lowest? Now’s the time to buy if you really want to make money, right? RIGHT?

Of course, you have verifiable proof that you knew before 2008 that the stock market was going to tumble in 2008? And the same method you used to determine that information has NEVER been wrong, is that correct? Or it at least has been right more times than from random chance, right?

Your entire post makes little sense.

“I read your article with interest and it was clear to see that you have no scientific training.”

Aha..ha..ha. Courtesy laugh for the station.

Yesterday Market Place talked about their astrology segment and how they got letters about it and that there was contraversy online and how that it was actually humor

They phrased it as “There’s astronomy … there’s astrology …. and there’s humor.”

Stating that there are forces out there we don’t know of is usually a springboard for justifying things such as astrology. I’m led to believe by your comments that you may actually believe in astrology or of the many pseudo-science topics out there. You’ve made very strong accusations and without giving examples or backing them up. Your post is very reactionary. Can you give some examples of how Randi is a fraud? I suppose a magician or a mentalist could be framed as a fraud since they’re not really doing what they claim they’re doing in front of you

You said,

“To state that there are only four fundamental forces governing the universe, which you base your arguement on, is not necassarily correct. It would be better to state recognised forces as we do not have all the answers yet.”

What other fundamental forces in the universe did you learn about in your physics class? If you don’t agree that the Strong, Electromagnetic, Weak and Gravity forces are the only ones, please educate us on your alternatives. And show your work. If you try to weasel out and say, “We don’t know yet,” then you have no argument. Until you can provide evidence of some “unknown” force here, then we’ll just stick with what we can prove.

Roy also said,

“I do not believe that astrology works but professional debunkes do more harm than good as they try too hard and always cross the boundries into a “swamp gas” explanation or end up using psuedo-science.”

Yes, and seatbelts cost more lives than they save. Where is your evidence that debunkers do any harm at all? Is it harmful to educate people?

Alchemy < Chemistry …. Astrology < Astronomy

I had my ‘less than’ sign around the wrong way .. doh

Sure it can be studied for historical and cultural value. No problem. I see your point.

I see what you are saying but suggesting astrology can be used in cultures to predict astronomical events .. well … why cant we just use something better … like astronomy? It more accurate. That’s like saying that we should give value to alchemy because it still exists in some Cultures and did in the past like astrology, when we clearly need to keep it in the realm of historical and romantic value and just use chemistry instead.

Alchemy > Chemistry ……. Astrology > Astronomy

Again I must insist, and I am sure you do, that astrology can only be used for historical and poetic value, as a study of culture. Anything beyond this is infringing upon rationality. Astrology is only similar to astronomy because they both use the sky and star positions. Beyond that astrology attempts to predict things. If it is tying to predict where a star is going to be, that is just astronomy, or if it tries to predict when a planetary conjunction will occur (astronomy uses the word too, I have no issue with it) that is also astronomy. If it tries to predict when a tsunami is going to be, that is just garbage.

I see value in studying it for the same reason I see value in studying why Alchemy was used the past, (to turn lead into gold .. which doesn’t work) for historical reasons, or cultural reasons, or romantic poetic reasons. In fact I find the study of Babylonian Astrology fascinating, due to how well they knew the sky and how well in advance they could predict where planets would be, and also because that is believed to be where astrology was born. It is a fascinating subject.

Again, if someone tries to use it to make financial and relationship decisions for themselves or others, then it just becomes laughable, almost akin to watching someone attempt to turn lead into gold using ancient alchemy techniques. … except that would be less harmful.

“the ones that do the math themselves”. How does doing the math by hand differ than using software? The math gives you the same positions regardless of whether it’s done by hand or software. With software, you’ve removed human error in from the computation.

I can no longer tell if Thor is a troll or honestly confused. Do you understand the calculus the high school students you mentioned in a previous post? After reading your posts it appears that you seem quite dazzled by all the math and “precision” without really understanding it’s details.

“astrology has two components, the mathematics/celestial mechanics part AND the interpretation/’prediction’ part. They are separate modules, so to speak. You do one, and then the other. There’s no “cloaking” here, at least not with true astrologers – the ones that do the math themselves and then give the results some meaning or other.”

The trouble, Thor, is that there is no connection between your separate modules. You keep dodging that key point. The “meanings” you attach to the positions of the planets are fiction. Poetic, maybe, but still utterly make-believe.

You could just as easily turn the mathematics of the solar system into a sculpture. No matter how artistic it might be, it still would not represent a connection between the position of the planets and the lives of anyone on Earth.

I suppose you could make that sculpture abstract enough that people could “interpret” it however they want (just like astrologers use generalizations to make their text seem applicable to any reader who happens to read it). You could also claim that it somehow affects the events in their lives (noted, usually, after the fact), but the fact remains that the position of the planets do not physically affect anyone’s lives. If someone is being influenced by astrology, it is because they are being psychologically manipulated by a human being…NOT a planet.

And it matters not one whit if a person uses software or their own brain to do the math. Once they make the assertion that their calculations can explain the affect of some force that influences the lives of human beings, they are engaging in bunk.

@ I.P. Freeley:

1) cut your dosage of Flomax and that might help

2) The Old Testament isn’t exactly consistent in its attitudes toward divination, is it? It’s not that Yaweh doesn’t like people seeing the future, he just doesn’t want them seeing it clearly. I mean, c’mon…John’s revelations are just a little on the wiggy side. They make even the modern astrology b.s. seem positively sane.

18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

18:12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

Isaiah 47:13 Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee.

47:14 Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.

When I mentioned conjunction, I tried to indicate that most people here would view its usage in the context of astrology with more than mild annoyance.

I’ve repeatedly said that astrology is more than just prediction, although it is associated with that. What’s wrong with being enamored with precision and math, especially with something so closely associated with metaphysics? And even if the gambling machine is designed to cheat you better and it does a good job at it, wouldn’t you be interested in knowing how it does that? I would.

Kuhnigget, astrology has two components, the mathematics/celestial mechanics part AND the interpretation/’prediction’ part. They are separate modules, so to speak. You do one, and then the other. There’s no “cloaking” here, at least not with true astrologers – the ones that do the math themselves and then give the results some meaning or other. This is unlike most astrologers here in the west, who use software to compute everything they need and give it their interpretation.

Once again (I’ve said this in my previous comments too), this IS an ART when you understand what it is. THIS is NOT SCIENCE. It is NOT used to predict supernovae. And my comparison to poetry was with Eastern (Vedic) astrology which are written in excellent poetic verses.

Sadly, there are lots of people in there with him.

I know I posted a reply to Thor’s latest posting but it wasn’t worth it. He’s not going to get it. He’s in his own walled off world.

And I gaze at the planets in wonder,
At the trouble and time they expend.
All to warn me to be careful,
In dealings involving a friend!

Flanders & Swann

NO, it cannot. People “predicting” eclipses, planetary conjunctions and other slightly more complicated phenomena are using mathematics and astronomical physics. That some choose to cloak those scientific “tools” in fantasy does not change the nature of the tools, but rather reflects upon the mindset (and/or cultural background) of the ones using them.

Astrology may be a form of art. But art cannot make scientific predictions without incorporating science. Strip away the science, and you’re left with pretty words, pictures, fairytales, whatever you choose to call them.

The term conjunction is used in astronomy. This makes me wonder how much you actually understand science and astronomy specifically.

You seem to be enamored with precise calculations and formulas and misunderstand that this somehow adds credibility to astrology. And I really don’t have much else to say about it.

If a gambling machine used “some beautiful mathematical formula or some brilliant algorithm”, it’s most likely designed to cheat you better.

Can you give us an example of the prediction/advice/poetry your astrologer gave you and how you used that in real life?

For far too long, our society has been obsessed with youth and beauty. Along with this has come the idea (which I’ve never subscribed to) that you stop being desirable once you have kids. Think of all the women who say having kids will “ruin my figure” or whatever.

The term MILF is a reversal of all of that. It says that women who have had children can be, and are, sexually desirable.

And, let’s face it, in very many cases it’s absolutely true. I think the PC-fundies do more harm than good by attacking the language; without the language, you have no idea of who thinks what. Making it unacceptable to say “the n-word” did nothing to stop racism, because racism was never in the word; it was in the thoughts, feelings, and actions of the person saying the word.

It’s a bit like someone looking at a murder committed with a firearm and blaming the ivory grip on the gun.

They did have pretty easy labors, only a couple of hours or so. I’m sure someone going through 30 hours of back labor deserves all the painkillers she can get—before and after the procedure! (And probably the husband, too…)

If the question is whether the same tool be used to predict eclipses, planetary conjunctions (I know many here hate this word), and other slightly more complicated phenomena, YES. It Can. I am not suggesting that this is astrophysics, or that it can be used to predict the evolution of stars, or that it can be used to detect planets beyond Pluto, none of that.

The point that I’ve been trying to convey (albeit poorly) is that some astrological systems do involve some pretty serious computation and thus should NOT be clubbed together with psychics or crystal balls. When it is used the way it is in the West, then it acquires a wholly different, just nasty flavor.

Your analogy was pretty good. Gambling is fun. Gambling can probably make you filthy rich, with emphasis on ‘probably’. But to make career decisions based on what you might make off of gambling is just unwise. Same goes with astrology. I dont know about anyone here, but if somebody told me that the gambling machine used some beautiful mathematical formula or some brilliant algorithm to generate its output, I’d be more than willing to give the machine itself greater consideration. If an entire culture was based around that machine, I’d give that machine more respect, than say, dice. This is NOT an endorsement of the idea that you can base your life’s major decisions around the machine’s output. I hope I haven’t stretched your analogy too much.

And a related but different point that I tried to make is that this system is deeply rooted into several cultures. So, although astrology is NOT science, it needs to be treated as a source of different cultures and thus holds a deeper anthropological value. This is why it needs to be studied deeply and not clubbed together with say, what Sylvia Browne does. Or even Linda Goodman. And the different systems of astrology need to be treated differently. If I may, let me throw in another analogy. Look at the Swastika. It’s a VERY sacred symbol in the east. It’s VERY old and has a lot of symbolic meaning. It has a cultural identity of its own that for the most part, is distinct from the religions that use it, and deserves to be respected as such. It has also been borrowed and abused and much maligned. So should it be discarded just because it is held in so much contempt this side of the world? If you look at original descriptions of this symbol – what it represents, again : beautiful. Is it ‘TRUE’??? In one sense, that doesn’t mean much. But I’ll end the comparison there.

Side story 1: In many cultures, astrology is used to guide people into making decisions. If your “horoscope says that your immediate future does not look very favorable, it might be advisable to hold off on putting that much money into that other business”. It does not tell what business to invest in, who you SHOULD get married to, etc. The recommended use of astrology in cultures based on that system is to reveal ‘the path’ – the ups and downs and possible bumps, and not to reveal particulars on the road. If you read more about how it is used in many places in the east, you’ll find this ‘guiding light’, ‘contour map’ concept is true, and that it is not used like a GPS tool. Should it even be used as a contour map when it is not? That is the real issue in most people’s minds. Suffice to say, if I love someone and I want to marry her, I will, regardless of what my horoscope says. Same goes for business investments. People are quite practical regarding that.

Side story 2: Several years ago, in India, where astrology is BIG, major astrology groups wanted the ruling (Hindu) party to include astrology in University curriculums. You’d think that in a country where major personal decisions are made after consultation with astrologers, this might have been received positively. It was rejected overwhelmingly. On average, the hold astrology has is not as bad as you might think. People are smart. They know the difference between physics and metaphysics, between the practical and the supernatural. Well, at least in India. Thankfully.

The difficulty in seeing it akin to other forms of art is understandable. It’s just too weird to say they are alike. But then again, most Hindu and Buddhist scriptures are written as long poems, and Western scholars are attracted and excited by this. Well, most anyway. I hope this clears up why I think astrology deserves to be studied.

People need to travel a lot, read a lot and go easy on the sarcasm (not directed at everyone).

Now… need to go get some Iranian paintings… Bagher Aghamiri anyone?