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	<title>Comments on: Fight harder for vaccination!</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/01/02/fight-harder-for-vaccination/</link>
	<description>I am an astronomer, writer, and skeptic. I likes reality the way it is, and I aims to keep it that way. My real name is Phil Plait, and I run the Bad Astronomy blog.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 16:00:43 -0600</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Why Aren&#8217;t Scientists Asking More Questions? &#171; The Woo Woo Teacup Journal</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/01/02/fight-harder-for-vaccination/comment-page-2/#comment-150892</link>
		<dc:creator>Why Aren&#8217;t Scientists Asking More Questions? &#171; The Woo Woo Teacup Journal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jan 2009 02:51:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/01/02/fight-harder-for-vaccination/#comment-150892</guid>
		<description>[...] several times about childhood vaccinations. The blog post that inspired me to write this is called Fight harder for vaccination! and in it, Plait says that model and actress &#8220;Jenny McCarthy is a walking antiscience [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] several times about childhood vaccinations. The blog post that inspired me to write this is called Fight harder for vaccination! and in it, Plait says that model and actress &#8220;Jenny McCarthy is a walking antiscience [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/01/02/fight-harder-for-vaccination/comment-page-2/#comment-150382</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2009 20:20:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/01/02/fight-harder-for-vaccination/#comment-150382</guid>
		<description>Here in VA you can&#039;t send your kids to preschool unvaccinated, even a private preschool, unless you lie and say you have a religious objection to all vaccines.  That&#039;s my understanding, at least.  Of course, enforcement is another issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here in VA you can&#8217;t send your kids to preschool unvaccinated, even a private preschool, unless you lie and say you have a religious objection to all vaccines.  That&#8217;s my understanding, at least.  Of course, enforcement is another issue.</p>
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		<title>By: Todd W.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/01/02/fight-harder-for-vaccination/comment-page-2/#comment-150256</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2009 14:50:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/01/02/fight-harder-for-vaccination/#comment-150256</guid>
		<description>@Matt

&lt;blockquote&gt;why can’t a 3-year old legally go to a private pre-school without getting the full gamut of vaccines?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Liability? :)

Seriously, though, they can.  They can even go to a public school without the full gamut of shots.  Every state has some manner of exemption clause.  At the very least they have medical exemptions.  Many have religious exemptions, and not a few have &quot;conscience&quot; exemptions.  Part of the reason that states have laws requiring vaccinations is because of the enormous impact on public health, and that many people probably would not otherwise get the shots.

And, as regarding the pro-vaccination people, it&#039;s generally there that you will hear the arguments about the &quot;people at the margins&quot;.  The anti-vaccine crowd almost never have anything to say about them, instead focusing on their own kids or only those receiving the shots.

Lots of emotion wrapped up in this issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Matt</p>
<blockquote><p>why can’t a 3-year old legally go to a private pre-school without getting the full gamut of vaccines?</p></blockquote>
<p>Liability? <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Seriously, though, they can.  They can even go to a public school without the full gamut of shots.  Every state has some manner of exemption clause.  At the very least they have medical exemptions.  Many have religious exemptions, and not a few have &#8220;conscience&#8221; exemptions.  Part of the reason that states have laws requiring vaccinations is because of the enormous impact on public health, and that many people probably would not otherwise get the shots.</p>
<p>And, as regarding the pro-vaccination people, it&#8217;s generally there that you will hear the arguments about the &#8220;people at the margins&#8221;.  The anti-vaccine crowd almost never have anything to say about them, instead focusing on their own kids or only those receiving the shots.</p>
<p>Lots of emotion wrapped up in this issue.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/01/02/fight-harder-for-vaccination/comment-page-2/#comment-150252</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2009 14:15:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/01/02/fight-harder-for-vaccination/#comment-150252</guid>
		<description>Thanks Todd.  That&#039;s what I figured--the public side is for people at the margins.  But then it seems like those who are ardently pro-vaccination should just say that instead of casting the debate as about &quot;our kids lives,&quot; as the starting post does.  

Given that the danger is at the margins, I personally wish there was less state intervention and more education and outreach to get people vaccinated.  Like, why can&#039;t a 3-year old legally go to a private pre-school without getting the full gamut of vaccines?  Seems a bit heavy-handed to me.  

Anyway, thanks for your thoughtful response.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Todd.  That&#8217;s what I figured&#8211;the public side is for people at the margins.  But then it seems like those who are ardently pro-vaccination should just say that instead of casting the debate as about &#8220;our kids lives,&#8221; as the starting post does.  </p>
<p>Given that the danger is at the margins, I personally wish there was less state intervention and more education and outreach to get people vaccinated.  Like, why can&#8217;t a 3-year old legally go to a private pre-school without getting the full gamut of vaccines?  Seems a bit heavy-handed to me.  </p>
<p>Anyway, thanks for your thoughtful response.</p>
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		<title>By: Todd W.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/01/02/fight-harder-for-vaccination/comment-page-2/#comment-149409</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:50:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/01/02/fight-harder-for-vaccination/#comment-149409</guid>
		<description>@Matt

The issue is not how this affects your immunized kid, but how it affects those who, for age or medical reasons, cannot be immunized.  Here are a couple examples:

You have a newborn infant.  You are taking that infant, who is as yet too young to receive, say, the MMR, to the pediatrician for a checkup.  Also in the waiting room of the pediatrician&#039;s office are a couple kids with measles, a disease which is highly contagious and can be transmitted through the air.  Your infant contracts the disease from these other kids and is now at great risk for serious injury, including pneumonia, encephalitis or even death.

Suppose now, that instead of an infant, your child has to receive an organ transplant.  The transplant goes well, but in order to ensure that the organ is not rejected, your child must take immunosuppressant drugs.  This pretty much wipes out the immune system.  Everywhere they go: to the store, to the movies, on the bus or train, on airplanes, they are at high risk for contracting a vaccine-preventable disease.  And, for some of these diseases, the risk of serious injury is worse the older they are.  If they live in a community where no one is getting vaccinated, it&#039;s pretty much guaranteed that they will get a disease.

Or, let&#039;s make it even closer to home.  You are getting on in years.  Your immunity, either naturally gained or through vaccinations, to certain communicable diseases has worn off, leaving you susceptible to contracting the disease.  Assuming you don&#039;t get a booster shot (either by choice or due to medical reasons), all those kids whose parents chose not to get vaccinated are now putting you at risk of pretty serious injury.

I hope these examples show how this is a public health issue, rather than a private health concern.  There are members of society who, for one reason or another, cannot receive vaccinations.  When people choose to forego vaccination for their kids, they are not only choosing to put their own child at risk for disease, they are also choosing to put people around them at risk for disease.  Oh, and keep in mind that vaccines, while pretty darn effective, are not 100% guaranteed to work.  Some need multiple administrations before immunity is conferred, leaving the child susceptible until the series is completed.  For some, even when the series is completed, immunity still does not occur.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Matt</p>
<p>The issue is not how this affects your immunized kid, but how it affects those who, for age or medical reasons, cannot be immunized.  Here are a couple examples:</p>
<p>You have a newborn infant.  You are taking that infant, who is as yet too young to receive, say, the MMR, to the pediatrician for a checkup.  Also in the waiting room of the pediatrician&#8217;s office are a couple kids with measles, a disease which is highly contagious and can be transmitted through the air.  Your infant contracts the disease from these other kids and is now at great risk for serious injury, including pneumonia, encephalitis or even death.</p>
<p>Suppose now, that instead of an infant, your child has to receive an organ transplant.  The transplant goes well, but in order to ensure that the organ is not rejected, your child must take immunosuppressant drugs.  This pretty much wipes out the immune system.  Everywhere they go: to the store, to the movies, on the bus or train, on airplanes, they are at high risk for contracting a vaccine-preventable disease.  And, for some of these diseases, the risk of serious injury is worse the older they are.  If they live in a community where no one is getting vaccinated, it&#8217;s pretty much guaranteed that they will get a disease.</p>
<p>Or, let&#8217;s make it even closer to home.  You are getting on in years.  Your immunity, either naturally gained or through vaccinations, to certain communicable diseases has worn off, leaving you susceptible to contracting the disease.  Assuming you don&#8217;t get a booster shot (either by choice or due to medical reasons), all those kids whose parents chose not to get vaccinated are now putting you at risk of pretty serious injury.</p>
<p>I hope these examples show how this is a public health issue, rather than a private health concern.  There are members of society who, for one reason or another, cannot receive vaccinations.  When people choose to forego vaccination for their kids, they are not only choosing to put their own child at risk for disease, they are also choosing to put people around them at risk for disease.  Oh, and keep in mind that vaccines, while pretty darn effective, are not 100% guaranteed to work.  Some need multiple administrations before immunity is conferred, leaving the child susceptible until the series is completed.  For some, even when the series is completed, immunity still does not occur.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/01/02/fight-harder-for-vaccination/comment-page-2/#comment-149010</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Jan 2009 01:31:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/01/02/fight-harder-for-vaccination/#comment-149010</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m trying to figure something out.   Why is this a &quot;public&quot; health issue, at least after a certain period where information and access to a particular vaccine becomes widespread?  In other words, how are &quot;my&quot; or &quot;your&quot; or &quot;our&quot; kids affected by someone else&#039;s decision not to vaccinate their kids?  If I or you or we vaccinnate our kids, they can&#039;t get measles or whatever from the non-vaccinated counterculturists.  So why isn&#039;t this a private health issue, i.e., the health of those unvaccinated kids?  Why should any privilege in society be conditioned on one&#039;s immunized status?  If my kid is the only one to get the MMR vaccine in a school of 1500 unimmunized kids, what do I care?  How will all the measles those kids are getting affect my immunized kids?  Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m trying to figure something out.   Why is this a &#8220;public&#8221; health issue, at least after a certain period where information and access to a particular vaccine becomes widespread?  In other words, how are &#8220;my&#8221; or &#8220;your&#8221; or &#8220;our&#8221; kids affected by someone else&#8217;s decision not to vaccinate their kids?  If I or you or we vaccinnate our kids, they can&#8217;t get measles or whatever from the non-vaccinated counterculturists.  So why isn&#8217;t this a private health issue, i.e., the health of those unvaccinated kids?  Why should any privilege in society be conditioned on one&#8217;s immunized status?  If my kid is the only one to get the MMR vaccine in a school of 1500 unimmunized kids, what do I care?  How will all the measles those kids are getting affect my immunized kids?  Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Radwaste</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/01/02/fight-harder-for-vaccination/comment-page-2/#comment-147271</link>
		<dc:creator>Radwaste</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 17:39:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/01/02/fight-harder-for-vaccination/#comment-147271</guid>
		<description>Cite the study showing the link, SCH.

Reconcile the fact that vaccines are, essentially, the very biohazard they protect against. Show that measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox and so forth cause autism.

What an impressive bioweapon vaccines would be. We could cause autism in the enemy. Not.

And leave out the straw men. The coverup here is by antivaxxers, who hide the studies showing that they have a genetic, not chemically-induced, affliction to deal with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cite the study showing the link, SCH.</p>
<p>Reconcile the fact that vaccines are, essentially, the very biohazard they protect against. Show that measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox and so forth cause autism.</p>
<p>What an impressive bioweapon vaccines would be. We could cause autism in the enemy. Not.</p>
<p>And leave out the straw men. The coverup here is by antivaxxers, who hide the studies showing that they have a genetic, not chemically-induced, affliction to deal with.</p>
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