Antivaxxers and their trouble with truth

By Phil Plait | March 28, 2009 9:08 am

Remember the highlarity when it was found that the modern antivax movement’s founder, Andrew Wakefield, apparently faked his data and lied in his original paper claiming vaccines were linked to autism?

That article was researched and written by investigative journalist Brian Deer, who looked pretty carefully into what Wakefield did. Now mind you, Wakefield wrote that original vaccine-autism article after coming up with what he claimed was an alternative to vaccines, so his own credibility is suspect. And now he is in Austin, Texas, as part of Thoughtful House, where autistic kids undergo "therapy" based on Wakefield’s dubious research. No doubt this is a highly profitable business.

So what did you think Wakefield did when Deer’s article came out? Admit defeat, fold up business, and apologize for starting a movement that has helped hundreds of kids get sick and have some of them actually die?

No, of course not. He wrote a scathing attack on Deer, most of which is as thin as his original claims about vaccines.

And now Deer has responded. Orac has all the pieces to this little puzzle, and every time another part comes out, things look worse for Wakefield and the pro-measles crowd.

Some antiscience is a pain in the neck, and some kills. Think, people.

Think.

Comments (266)

  1. IVAN3MAN

    Phil, just tell it like it is: Anti-science advocates are an unmitigated pain in the ass/arse!

  2. EricS

    My hat off to you and Orac for staying on top of this, BA. I never really bought into the antivax hysteria, and now that my wife and I are expecting our first child I know exactly how to confront anyone who tries to throw this junk at us, and where to send them. Not just here but also to Brian Deer’s site — it’s good to see that not only was he following Wakefield’s trail intently but also publishing the findings online. I’m just stunned at the effect one greedy person can have on so many young lives.

  3. QUASAR

    So, why fill up your children with some liquids which have the disease in a weakened state to prevent those diseases, when they can develope immunity the natural way?

    P.S.

    The word vaccination alone makes me feel sick, because well, I think you know where it came from, don’t you?

  4. Murdats

    @QUASAR

    hmm, develop an immunity via a dangerous process of an extended period of agony or achieve the same result via a quick needle and perhaps some nausea and dizziness.

    Why don’t we risk our lives for the same effect still?

  5. QUASAR, because kids get very sick if we don’t. Measles, as one example, can lead to incredible painful and dangerous illnesses, including death. Look up the word “antivax” on this blog and see what some of the results are.

  6. QUASAR

    ‘…an extended period of agony…’

    What disease are you talking about?

  7. Richard

    What, you mean cow pox boils?

    Sure okay QUASAR, we shouldn’t put liquids with dead or weakened germs into kids. Let’s also not give them cheese, since there are live microbes in there. Or pasteurized yogurt, nasty stuff that turns milk like that, no?

    And let’s forget about bread, what with an insane amount of dead yeast carcasses inside of just one slice. Can’t let those kiddies ingest dead or weakened germs.

    But, if they want a bit of uncooked chicken, that’s okay because they’ll have to get used to it anyway, ’cause it’s the natural way, right?

    You know, one of the real risks with some vaccines is if a person has allergies to eggs, or whatever medium is used. It can be bad.

    If the apparently strange origin of a word or consumable is enough to put you off, then I’d stay away from pork rinds. That they make footballs out of the same thing is kinda worrying, right. Imagine someone eating pork rinds, with a liberal amount of hot sauce. Why that should get my tongue,…er, I mean anyone’s tongue wagging is in front of,…er, I mean beyond me.

    (And don’t get started with Jell-O. Made, again, mainly with processed pig skin. Also, appropriately with cow skins. Ah yes, cow skin. Leather and gelatin. What a combo.)

    And then Big Pharma shoves down gelatin capsules down our mouth. Gelatin, down our mouths!

    I have seen the truth, oh great QUASAR. Now I shall remove from my fridge, and discard my attempt to make orange Jell-O with pork rinds and hot sauce.

    I’m hoping my siblings got all their kids vaccinated so they don’t have to worry about getting a serious disease from a kid who either couldn’t get vaccinated, or didn’t get vaccinated because of this whole Wakefield mess.

  8. @QUASAR

    Because developing immunity the natural way has the nasty side effect of sometimes KILLING YOU?

  9. Richard

    Hey, if we followed the anti-vaccination crowd’s advice, we’d get a nifty way of birth control. Once adolescent or adult male gets the mumps, because of not contracting it while a child or through the smarter method of vaccination, then we can almost be sure the such a person is sterile.

    Imagine a large population of sterile males in the Western World. Can you imagine just how lucky they’d be to say, “Oh, I don’t need birth control, I’m shooting blanks.”

    Thank you Antivaxxers, you’ll straighten our society, yet.

  10. I really don’t think that people like QUASAR listen to themselves. I mean it just seems they’re spouting off nonsense without any filter whatsoever. If the difference between “get disease X and build immunity off of it” and “get a shot with a weakened disease X, not get the disease, but build immunity off of it” does not make you want to take door two, when there are no risks for yourself for taking door 2 (egg allergies, etc), you are ignorant, plain and simple.

  11. Eduardo

    QUASAR: some never develop immunity and…well… they die. I think I prefer vaccination, thank you.

  12. QUASAR

    @ Richard

    Ahhhhh hahahahahahahaha! You’re hilarious with that cheese, yogurt and bread thing! Many pathogens can be destroyed by the immune system but I was talking about the ones which can cause diseases and then develope immunity the natural way. But now it has been clarified to me by Murdats and Phil Plait in some of the previous comments!

  13. Dutchdoc

    Remember the highlarity

    highlarity? As oposed to lowlarity?

    Or is this some clever play on the word ‘hilarity’ that escapes us, non-native-English’ readers? ;-)

  14. Pieter Kok

    Quasar, forget measles: how about polio? Get it the natural way, and you have a good chance you end up in a wheel chair or worse. I am very grateful that my parents had me vaccinated, and I am doing the same with my children.

    We are close to the complete eradication of polio through immunization. Don’t jeopardize that with this nonsense!

  15. Hazy

    I am of the opinion that vaccines should not be blindly administered “just because”. There is a big push by pharma companies to institute mandatory vaccination which has nothing to do with the safety and health of our children. The mere fact that there is an almost complete media blackout on mercury filled vaccines causing autism shows that these bastards do not care about us and are willing to cover up the truth to make more money.

  16. TheBlackCat

    So, why fill up your children with some liquids which have the disease in a weakened state to prevent those diseases, when they can develope immunity the natural way?

    Develop immunity the natural way? You mine by getting a terrible disease that often causes permanent chronic unbelievable pain, brain damage, disability, paralysis, sterility, blindness, or death? Just let ‘em die, brilliant plan there.

  17. On behalf of all sane parents of fully vaccinated autistic children, I thank you. Vaccines don’t cause autism, but even if they did, I’d rather face the one in a million chance of encephalitis from vaccines than the one in a thousand chance of getting encephalitis from actual mumps.

    Oh, and I’d much rather have an autistic child than a dead child, I’m not going to scope my son to find imaginary measles in his gut, and I’d rather not waste money on bullsh$t woo that I could spend on researched therapies. But perhaps that’s just me.

  18. TheBlackCat

    BTW, if you are wondering I am referring to shingles, measles, and polio.

  19. IVAN3MAN

    QUASAR:

    So, why fill up your children with some liquids which have the disease in a weakened state to prevent those diseases, when they can develope [sic] immunity the natural way?

    Yes, QUASAR, why indeed; then you and your children can show everybody your and their scars of eye damage due to smallpox!

  20. zar

    So, why fill up your children with some liquids which have the disease in a weakened state to prevent those diseases, when they can develope immunity the natural way?

    Because vaccines help prevent people from getting sick. The ‘natural way’ involves getting polio or measels or mumps, likely getting lifelong health problems or even dying.

    Speaking of natural ways, why communicate via electricity and silicon? Open your window and just yell real loud.

  21. Amanda

    I, personally, hated the chicken pox. I was vaccinated as a young’n (autism free, btw), but there is apparently a booster that you’re supposed to get at 18. Just like clockwork, I caught it in Dec/Jan of my senior year in high school and was sick for two weeks. I was 18 years old, and I wanted to die. It wasn’t just the itching; it was the lack of sleep, the burning, the puking, the fever of 102+, and the fact that there was NO relief at any point in that two week period. (Oatmeal and calamine lotion just made it worse. Cold baths didn’t stay cold long enough. Ice packs started to hurt. I was MISERABLE.) I had it everywhere, too – eyelids, tongue, throat, feet, hands, ears, scalp, and various places that don’t need to be mentioned here.

    Chicken pox is one of the less serious diseases (for children, especially – it can get dangerous for adults). I could have suffered long-term effects (like Shingles), but so far it looks like I’m only left with immunity and memories. There are other diseases out there, though, that result in a lot worse. I’m no expert, and my experience is purely anecdotal, but I’d like to prevent this happening to people. My kids, your kids – doesn’t matter. The difference between anecdotal evidence from people who believe that vaccines cause autism and my anecdotal evidence is that mine is backed by scientific research.

  22. ND

    Quasar is a troll.

  23. Murdats

    @QUASAR
    since when is being sick ever fun? since when is being sick better then a quick needle?
    being sick sucks, just a cold sucks. things we have vaccines for really suck.

    If we were to cause people to be itch all over for weeks on end it would surely be considered a deplorable form of torture, but kids used to go through it all the time until we developed that nice little needle that prevents it and I sure as hell would prefer that needle not to mention the greatly decreased chance of death and permanent damage but mainly just the itchy as hell thing.

  24. Amanda

    @ Murdats
    ZOMG the itching… it was horrible.

    Torture, yes.

  25. Lawdogg

    Pro-measles…I like that. It sounds more positive and uplifting than anti-vax, but it’s just not catchy enough. It needs more pop. How about pro-polio? Pro-smallpox? Too long. Pro-pox? I like it. It’s got the alliteration thing and the nice symmetry. They could be the PP movement and call themselves PP peeps. That’s kinda cute. It helps soften those little problems with the dead babies and the increased risk of pandemic.

  26. Pieter Kok

    Lawdogg: Polio Posse?

  27. Geek Goddess

    Some people purposely expose their kids to chicken pox, often will only minor sickness as a result. They’re the lucky one. I had chicken pox at age 8, and was only mildly sick. My mom had it as a teen and was sick enough to be hospitalized. In her 70s, she came down with shingles, including in her eyes. The cornea scarring, which caused her pain for several years, was finally helped by a cornea transplant. She’s get the stitches out in twelve more months. Yep, chicken pox the natural way is just great.

    My friend Mary Ann died two years ago. She got polio the ‘natural way’ when she was 2 year old, about a year before the vaccine became available, and spent her entire life as a quadriplegic in a wheelchair. But at least she didn’t have autism!

    ::snork::

  28. @Richard, Hey, if we followed the anti-vaccination crowd’s advice, we’d get a nifty way of birth control.

    The problem there is that vaccines don’t just protect the individual. Since vaccines aren’t %100 effective, we rely in part on a “herd” immunity that comes from being part of a vaccinated population. When someone refuses to vaccinate, they’re not making a personal decision that affects only their child. They’re allowing their child to become a walking biohazard. They’re saying “My child is special, and the rest of the population should be willing to shelter him with their immunity while simultaneously allowing him to put them at risk.” Fetuses, those too young to vaccinate, and those with weakened immune systems are in serious danger when they’re in an area where there are a lot of these wackos.

    Several kids on Vashon Island, Washington wound up with chronic asthma because they caught Whooping Cough from antivax classmates. The classmates’ parents still insist they were right not to vaccinate. It’s disgusting.

  29. Charlie Young

    I stand on the sidelines for most of this debate since there are for more vocal and eloquent voices to be heard. One thing that strikes me as odd is why haven’t the mercury manics in the anti vaccine camp not joining forces with the anti-amalgamists of dental fame. I hope I don’t start a new union with this point, since 2 times the quackery usually explodes exponentially.

    It just seems to me that if all these toxic substances being foisted on the unsuspecting public by the government and greedy corporations are so horrendous, why aren’t all these groups coming together to get to the bottom of the whole mess. Doing good science to prove the current mindset is wrong would go a long way. That is not their agenda, though. To me it looks more like a bunch of self-serving individuals who want to take advantage of an emotionally loaded problem.

  30. Charlie Young

    Just proofreading after posting: for more should be far more and joining should be joined. Sorry.

  31. Gary Ansorge

    I note that anti-vaxers studiously ignore the Danish study:

    http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1124634

    comparing autism rates among 440,000 MMR vaccinated children vs autism rates in approximately 100,000 UNvaccinated children and found NO correlation,ie, the autism rates were the same for both groups.

    Such a bummer for a particular belief system when we have such complete studies to refute those beliefs.

    GAry 7

  32. Chris

    I recently heard someone refer to people like QUASAR as “pro-infectious disease.”

    More stuff here:
    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=430

    Then came the news, just released by the Pennsylvania Department of Health, of seven more cases of invasive Haemophilus influenzae disease since October. All were children under 5, and all were unvaccinated or incompletely vaccinated. Three of these seven children have been confirmed to have died.

  33. Chris

    Charlie Young said “One thing that strikes me as odd is why haven’t the mercury manics in the anti vaccine camp not joining forces with the anti-amalgamists of dental fame.”

    Actually they are a direct off-shoot of the anti-amalgamists. Two of the big names in the Mercury Militia are Boyd Haley and Andy Cutler. They both started out with the “curing mercury poisoning from tooth fillings.” Boyd Haley used to have a business selling detention kits and cures (long gone, but there might be snippets in the ether), and Andy Cutler is the one behind the Autism-Mercury Yahoo group. Neither has any medical or biology training, Haley was a chemistry professor and Cutler is a chemical engineer.

  34. Chayanov

    It’s weird. The antivaxxers wring their hands with worry over the supposed harm being done to children by vaccinating them, yet they have no problem whatsoever with actually allowing children to die from easily preventable diseases.

  35. @Hazy: I think you might have come close enough to the critical mass of anti-vaxx BS statements to collapse in upon yourself, creating a black hole from which no intelligence can escape.

  36. Clive DuPort

    Could not Andrew Wakefield in some way be prosecuted for what in the UK we call manslaughter for spreading alleged lies which have caused the deaths of some children? I think a very public trial would help to put the message across that he is, at least, wrong.

  37. Sili

    Don’t forget lovely ol’ lockjaw. Perfectly natural.

  38. Another Data Point:
    RE: Eggs and vaccinations.
    As a child, I was violently allergic to eggs – we’re talking breaking out in a rash just being near (e.g. three feet (1/3 meter)) cooked or raw. I had my vaccinations (except, IIRC, Mumps) with no problem. I have ‘outgrown’ the allergy but still do not like eggs. (I have a very strange metabolism – you know how most people reach Middle Age and “go from growing UP to growing OUT”? I went from over 200# (100kg) to below 180# (90kg) after reaching my 50′s (no metric equivalent) ;)

    Also, as for Polio and wheelchairs, that’s hardly the worst, Wikipedia Iron Lung for more.

    J/P=?

  39. Sun Tzu

    @ QUASAR

    @ Hazy

    Kudos to both of you for having the cojones to stand up to the Amen Corner goons who keep tossing their cornucopia of dreck at you. I am 100% with you!

    Hint: now that the sharks are making a beeline on my position, and while I keep them occupied, you should take this opportunity to regroup, join forces and launch your assault on the BS Propaganda Machine. And don’t settle for anything less than the jugular. Tallyho!

    Your comrade at arms.

    Sun Tzu

  40. Quasar,

    We’ve been through this before. Kids don’t get filled up with vaccines. That is just your anti-science rant. The only dangers to children are insignificant compared to the dangers from the illnesses.

    Anti-vaccination kills. How proud you must be to kill children.

  41. OtherRob

    I got chicken pox when I was young. It was no big deal. But then a few years ago I got shingles. Very painful, QUASAR, very painful. And what really scares me about shingles is that, despite all the pain I experienced, I’m pretty sure my case would be classified as “mild”. *Shudder* for those that have it worse….

  42. @Hazy: There’s also a “complete media blackout” about how the moon landing was faked. Another about how the US Government planned 9/11.

    Maybe that, coupled with the fact that reporters are in the business of making money, so it’s not in their interest to “cover up” real news, should tell you something.

  43. @Gary – They’ll ignore the Danish study or tell you some reason it was flawed. They’ll ignore studies showing no sharp uptick in autism rates when MMR was introduced. They’ll ignore the fact that the Amish DO have autism. They’ll ignore all the studies and say there must have been some flaw. Autism speaks had a press release claiming the recent Omnibus ruling was merely a ruling that “three specific individuals” did not have vaccine-induced autism.

    They’ll tell you that Dr Offit must not know what he’s talking about, since he did work on a vaccine once. Oh, and they’ll tell you that poor, innocent, ethics violating, data faking, bad researching Wakefield was horribly maligned by Deer and anyone else that wants to pick on him by writing the truth about his research.

    Conflicts of interest only apply to people who work on vaccines or for the government or are ever paid by a pharmaceutical company. Conflicts of interest do not apply to people who make money from quackery, make money from books promoting anti vax stances, or make money from lawsuits against vaccines.

  44. @Nostrum: But, but, but, they only make money to recoup their costs to bring the TRUTH to the people, as well as nice, effective homeopathic/naturopathic medicines. And the the lawsuits, well, don’t these poor parents deserve to be compensated by the evildoers that are trying to kill their kids by injecting them with nasty viruses, “toxins”, monkey brains, etc, etc.

    Apparently, profits should also only be earned by those fighting the good fight and trying to destroy the establishment.

    Just in case anyone’s sarcasm meter is broken: ::roll::

  45. Mark Hansen

    Hazy, it has been discussed ad nauseum and there is not any mercury in vaccines any more. Hasn’t been for years. Autism is still happening. So what’s the new bogeyman in the vaccine that’s bringing on autism? And how does he make unvaccinated kids get autism too?

  46. Autumn

    All the pro-death-by-easily-preventable-disease-in-helpless-children-who-trust-adults-to-protect-them crowd (or, NAMBLA,) are just stooges of Big-Iron-Lung.

  47. Ulric

    As a parent whose children have suffered severe reactions to DPT and Meningitis vaccines, I suggest to all parents who read this to have a look at what this site has to say, to at least have another perspective on this whole vaccine issue and help you make an informed decision about vaccination : http://www.nvic.org/

    Be informed, parents. Be informed. It is your utmost right.

  48. Grump

    Sun Tzu Says:

    …now that the sharks are making a beeline on my position..

    Clearly your knowledge of zoology is as pitiful as your understanding of medicine.

    Sharks don’t eat troll, it tastes foul.

  49. Peter B

    Quasar said: “So, why fill up your children with some liquids which have the disease in a weakened state to prevent those diseases, when they can develope immunity the natural way?”

    Because it’s still dangerous.

    Read a bit about variolation. It was the process by which people were deliberately infected with a form of smallpox in order to protect against a full dose of the disease – perhaps the “natural” way of developing immunity you’re thinking of. From Wikipedia: “The effectiveness of the procedure was proven when, of the nearly three hundred people Boylston inoculated during the outbreak, only six died, whereas the mortality rate among those who contracted the disease naturally was one in six.”

    This was Boston in the early 18th century. Read that quote carefully – the death rate from variolation was only one-eighth that of the death rate from un-variolated people, which seems pretty good. But a variolation death rate was still 2%, and that’s way higher than the death rate from smallpox vaccination, which was about 0.0002%.

    I know which risk I’d take.

  50. Peter B

    Hazy said: “The mere fact that there is an almost complete media blackout on mercury filled vaccines causing autism shows that these bastards do not care about us and are willing to cover up the truth to make more money.”

    Why get your medical information from the media when you can get it from medical professionals? Like the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine. Or the Center for Disease Control. Or that Danish study that Gary Ansorge listed. Or are they all part of the “almost complete media blackout”?

  51. Or are they all part of the “almost complete media blackout”?

    It’s all part of the Grand Conspiracy, dontcha know.

  52. Jacob

    It’s incredibly frustrating as a medical student trying to cope with people who believe they’ve “outfoxed” the pharmaceutical companies or the vaccine manufacturers especially with diseases like the measles and rubella. Rubella in particular is exceedingly dangerous to pregnant women (read up on congenital rubella syndrome) and when parents don’t vaccinate their special little someones, they can become tiny cesspools of rubella virus without even knowing it.

    Think twice before letting these people anywhere near you, and spread the word because even with your own vaccination an acutely sick person might be able to harm you.

  53. Sun Tzu

    Grump says:

    “Sun Tzu Says:

    Sharks don’t eat troll, it tastes foul.”

    Yes, pity, isn’t it? It is most likely the aftertaste left by the vaccine.

  54. duphenix

    You might consider for a moment, dear great minds of science, that vaccination short circuits natural selection. Yay! for stopping natural human evolution.

  55. Josh

    @Sun Tzu/Quasar

    You seem to follow the Pseudo-Intellectual Internet Troll Pattern:

    1.) Post something pseudoscientific that defends a bizarre belief.
    2.) Get your ass handed to you by people who are actually intelligent.
    3.) Respond to such attacks personally.
    4.) Create a fake account (Sun Tzu) so it looks like you have friends.

  56. Josh

    @duphenix:

    That’s a good point. Unfortunately, fools are still allowed to vote.

    -j

  57. Grump

    @Sun Tzu: I take it back. Vaccines do cause autism, as your case clearly shows.

    @duphenix: And just when I thought “teh stoopid” couldn’t get any deeper.

  58. Inquiring Mind

    @ Mark~

    Mark Hansen Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 9:59 pm
    Hazy, it has been discussed ad nauseum and there is not any mercury in vaccines any more. Hasn’t been for years.

    Are you 100% certain of this? Why did the package inserts from the flu vaccine this past flu vax season (fall 2008) list thimerosal as an ingredient?

  59. Gene

    I think people have to be able to make their own decisions. It’s been proven there have be a lot of approved vaccines which have caused more damage then the illness it was trying to cure. There have also been vaccines which stops illness like Polio in it’s tracks.

    People can make the research say whatever they want and trying to argue with someone who doesn’t take the time to look at both sides is useless.

    You need to think about what you are putting into your children, there is good reason to vaccinate the life threating illnesses out there, that’s just a no brainer, but to blindly agree to something because your told too then it will be on your ignorance alone.

    Use common sense and do a little research so your decisions are informed.

  60. Peter B

    Duphenix said: “You might consider for a moment, dear great minds of science, that vaccination short circuits natural selection. Yay! for stopping natural human evolution.”

    What makes vaccination different from any other piece of technology humans have used to challenge the environment? Stone, copper, bronze or iron weapons? Medicine? Sanitation? Food preservation? Improved farming techniques? Electricity? Every one of these, and other, technologies has kept humans alive who would otherwise have died, thus affecting natural selection.

  61. b3ar

    If some fools want to not vaccinate their kids, I say let them, with the caveat that they will relocate to a quarantined area where they can watch as their children suffer and die from smallpox, polio, and whatever else they contract. At least they won’t be autistic, right?

  62. Mat

    As a doctor, I enjoy reading in our texts “Haemophilus was formerly the number one cause of disease X, and very virulent, but is now uncommon due childhood vaccination.” Some new versions of these same texts are now adding lines like “don’t overlook Haemophilus, as it is making a comeback due to changes in the public’s feelings on vaccination.” Why are you making our lives more difficult? We work day and night to keep you people well and you just don’t get it. Make all the arguments you want about Big Pharma, or even Big Medicine, but they are one reason you live to 78 on average and not 37 like in sub-Saharan Africans. Those people would happily accept your vaccines.

  63. Mat

    Duphenix said: “You might consider for a moment, dear great minds of science, that vaccination short circuits natural selection. Yay! for stopping natural human evolution.”

    Humans have been short circuiting natural selection in hundreds of ways. To reverse this, we’d have to close down every assisted care facility, deny all people on disability and welfare any help, cast off our elders once they stopped being productive, and possibly eat our own young if it benefitted us. Man is a complex animal that can’t be compared to all the other animals directly. There are reasons we are the dominant species on the Earth, but because of natural selection, and in spite of it.

  64. Sun Tzu

    Grump says:

    “@Sun Tzu: I take it back. Vaccines do cause autism.”

    You’ve just made my day!

  65. TheBlackCat

    So now we know that Sun Tzu is definitely a troll. Move along people, nothing more to see here.

  66. Bonk

    To all the antivaxxers out there:

    On behalf of all the Teeny Tiny Baby Coffin manufacturers out there, we would like to express our deep appreciation for your efforts in boosting the profitability of our industry.

  67. Duphenix said: “You might consider for a moment, dear great minds of science, that vaccination short circuits natural selection. Yay! for stopping natural human evolution.”

    Better not breast feed either then, Duphenix – that comes dangerously close to Lamarckian evolution. But actually, that’s the point.

    We don’t come with a blank slate handed to us by evolution.

    We get primed pretty early on. In the womb, epigenetics flips on and off a variety of genes depending on the environment we will end up in.

    Then, when we breast feed, we get a full spectrum of antibodies and training materials in the milk to get our immune systems up to speed as fast as possible.

    We’re just taking it to the next level. The reason why we don’t have better immune system support against these diseases by evolution, and by default is quite simple – they kill or sterilize. And our immune system is not designed to mutate rapidly like bacteria – we won’t breed immunity, these are population killer diseases.

    Just think about the millions of diseases and conditions that our system /does/ come prepared for. These are just the diseases we can’t adapt to at this point.

  68. Zij McGij

    I don’t pretend to have exact scientific knowledge of vaccines and all their potential pros and cons. I will say one thing, though: the tone taken by the anti-anti-vax-ers (most of those here) is remarkably unscientific and needlessly rude. How childish do we need to be to tell someone that we disagree with them? Another thing to consider is the fact that, the more you try to label one point of view as stupid or ridiculous, especially when infantile name-calling is used, the easier it is for that point to remain alive and grow a following. One of the biggest reasons some people doubt the wisdom of conventional thinking on issues like vaccinations is that they are so violently shouted down and belittled when they raise reasonable questions, as if they had no right to question a prevailing assumption. I also want to mention that the autism issue isn’t central to an anti-vax stance necessarily; I have issues with vaccinations just because I innately distrust anyone telling me I am required to have drugs pumped into me. Double for any children I may have in the future. So don’t yell at me and call me names just because your propaganda is more popular than someone else’s. Science still isn’t god.

  69. HCN

    Ulric, the NVIC is also known as the National Vaccine MIS-information Corporation (the lat part because their board includes Clifford “suppress a blogger with subpoenas so that we can continue to money suing for supposed vaccine injuries” Shoemaker). They cherry pick and do not update their “information” when no data comes out.

    My son never got the DPT vaccine because of a history of seizures, at a time when our county was in the midst of a pertussis epidemic. It was also at the time when over 120 Americans died from measles.

    And more recently (if you have read the recent ScienceBasedMedicine blog on vaccines), you will learn that in Pennsylvania out of seven children who got Hib, three died. (I am assuming that was the meningitis vaccine you were referring to, because the DTP was no longer being used when the other meningitis vaccines came into use).

    So, using those “great” resources at NVIC, tell us what actual factual scientific evidence (and it has to be in a journal available at my local medical school library, but not include any lawyer funded research, nor anything in “Medical Hypothesis”) shows that the Hib vaccine is worse than haemophilus influenza type b.

    Also, since the DTP is no longer used, tell us what actual factual scientific evidence shows that the DTaP is worse than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis (pertussis now kills over a dozen American babies each year, so your evidence should be very compelling).

  70. HCN

    Funny how an afterthought gets munged up. It is supposed to be: the latter part because their board includes Clifford “suppress a blogger with subpoenas so that we can continue to make money suing for supposed vaccine injuries” Shoemaker

    If you want to know what that is about do a search on: Clifford Shoemaker Kathleen Seidel

    You might find Ms. Seidel’s website very interesting.

  71. @HCN: We understand. It’s the internet equivalent of being too angry to speak coherently.

  72. Fielding j hurst

    I do appreciate where you guys are coming from but my daughter had a seizure after 4 month vaccines. The doctors dismissed it. From the first nano second their default position was no way now how was vaccine related. No more seizures until the day of the 8 month batch I shots. We had a slew that day, some very long. Again, no way the vaccine was related. That started a run of, to date, 321 seizures and our journey with autism. The medical establishment are borderline morons when it comes to dealing with seizures and autism. I understand you concerns about herd issues, but there are safer vaccine schedules that can provide the necessary innoculations and protect those who are genetically predisposed to have issues with vaccines. This includes going slower, not all at once, and following established guidelines about giving the vaccines when the kid is sick, on antibiotics at the time, etc.

  73. mike yadon

    All you have to do is research aluminum and ethyl mercury. These are two ingredients in vaccines. They have NO BUSINESS injecting these chemicals into the bodies of anyone. The whole thing is a fraud. Just google, “Polio Scam”. Polio is a made up disease.

    It’s all a scam and a big fraud and one of the biggest money making schemes in the history of this planet.

    same with hiv/aids. You people can scare yourselves to death and live out your lives lavishing in the fact that you poisoned yourselves and your children in the name of FEAR. I’ll pass on the whole thing and know that my family is building immunity the natural way.

    I

  74. mike yadon

    OUR TROUBLE WITH TRUTH? REALLY? Why don’t you research ethyl mercury and aluminum and how poisonous those two chemical compounds are to the human body.

    That’s the only truth I needed.

    The aluminum found in most vaccines alone is more than enough to be considered toxic and way beyond the limits that the FDA says is acceptable.

    Anyone who debates this is blinded by ignorance.

    ALUMINUM IS BAD FOR YOU. THE FDA WILL TELL YOU THAT. COUNTLESS STUDIES WILL TELL YOU THAT.

    So why do we inject it into infants?

    GENOCIDE. Our govt and other world leaders and the scientists who sit on the approval boards are all complicit in genocide. And someday they will all rot in prison cells. And I for one can’t wait to see this whole fraud come crashing down.

  75. Mark Hansen

    Inquiring Mind, I made the assumption that Hazy was referring to MMR vaccine which hasn’t had thimerosal since 2001. You are free to check that with the CDC. Some flu vaccines do use thimerosal. However there are thimerosal, or preservative, free vaccines. If you want to avoid thimerosal, ask your doctor for the preservative free vaccine.
    But, still, why haven’t autism rates dropped if thimerosal was the problem?

  76. HCN

    Mark Hanson said “MMR vaccine which hasn’t had thimerosal since 2001. ”

    Actually, it is a live virus vaccine and has NEVER contained thimerosal (nor aluminum). The funny thing is that it has been used in the USA since 1971, and only in the UK since 1992 (their earlier MMR had a different mumps strain). The only reason MMR has come into question was due to lawyer paid “research” of twelve children in the UK, resulting in a Lancet paper that came out in 1998 — which most of the authors have recanted.

  77. HCN

    Mike Yadon said “GENOCIDE. Our govt and other world leaders and the scientists who sit on the approval boards are all complicit in genocide. And someday they will all rot in prison cells. And I for one can’t wait to see this whole fraud come crashing down.”

    uh, huh… would you care to tell us exactly where the evidence of that accusation is?

    Teresa, what kind of vaccine is Dr. Gorski working on? I thought he was a surgical oncologist.

  78. Ulric

    @HCN

    In this matter, I speak as a concerned parent, and not as a specialist.

    My daughter got the DPT vaccine in 1984. As a result, she experienced swelling of the thigh (from the knee up to the groin) in which she got the injection. In addition, she had diarrhea and ran a moderate fever (101 to 102 degrees) for two days. She ended up pretty dehydrated, as she would refuse any feeding during that period. We tried Pedialyte, but she would’nt even have that. She would also wake up in the middle of the night, crying as if in pain. She would not do that normally. We were pretty concerned. We called the pediatrician and told him about our daughter’s situation. He said reactions like these could occurr, and not to worry about it for the time being. How reassuring! I guess she and we were lucky it only lasted for two days. It could have been much worse.

    As for the Meningitis vaccine, both my daughter and son got the injection in 1993, after a suspected outbreak among schoolchildren. They ran a moderate to high fever (101 to 103 degrees) for five days, had no appetite, had a rather bad case of throat infection and recurring neck (nape) aches. As a result, they missed school during those five days. We learned later that the Health Officials had exaggerated the threat posed by the meningitis, although not by their own admission, but rather through our family doctor. He was very critical of the way they jumped the gun. In addition to our children, he had also seen many children who had had adverse, and in some cases even severe, reactions to the vaccine.

    Now you will certainly understand that when it comes to the well-being of my children, I am a PARENT before anything else. It’s the least I owe them. Since that sad episode in 1993, when I’m not satisfied with the answers I get, I keep investigating. I’m suspicious, because there have been cases where science has made serious mistakes, namely in the infamous thalidomide case (although the product was not a vaccine). There are also problems with the Gardasil vaccine. Can you blame me for exercising caution and retaining a healthy dose of skepticism vis-à-vis the vaccine pushers? And I totally agree with what Gene said in his post.

    Having said that, now that my children have grown up (my daughter is 25, and my son is 23), I know they will have benefited from my experience as a parent. So, if and when they have children of their own, they will make it a duty, as parents, to get all the necessary information before making a decision on a matter as crucial as vaccination. They will NOT be bullied or coerced in any way to have their children vaccinated until they have looked at all the angles and are very reasonably satisfied it poses no risk whatsoever to the health of their children. If it means standing up to the PTB, so be it. And they can count on my unflagging support, and they know it.

    This is how being a PARENT works for me. And if someone calls me a fool, or whatever, for holding such a position, I will tell that person: “Come say it to my face!”

    Yours sincerely,
    Ulric

  79. You are all psychotic to think that any rationale person would choose Orac, an anonymous blogger…who just so happens to be involved in—vaccine development rather than Dr. Wakefield, a doctor who was thrown into this pit of slander and pro INDUSTRY snakes when he discovered that these original children in his study had a novel bowel disease and autism. After that, he became pro-vaccine & pro-industry’s #1 enemy as he reported the truth.

    Uh, no. I’m not involved in vaccine development in any way. Never have been. That was a pretty lame try at the pharma shill gambit:

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2006/09/the_pharma_shill_gambit_1.php

    Don’t believe me? Prove it. (Hint: You won’t be able to.)

  80. Sylvia

    What a strange world. Parents who vaccinated their children and then witnessed their children being forever changed are called “antivaxxers”.

    I wish I was, then life would be a lot different now.

    But when the debate is about the honesty and integrety of Brian Deer? Laughable! Truth has nothing to do with his “investigations”.

  81. HCN

    Ulric, did you miss the part where I asked for actual factual scientific evidence? The plural of anecdote is not data.

  82. Mickey

    I would be interested in pointers to any research that shows that any vaccines have been tested, particularly if they have been tested on children. I know it’s common knowledge that vaccines work, and are safe but would like to see the science behind the common knowledge. Thanks!

  83. Teresa

    “Teresa, what kind of vaccine is Dr. Gorski working on? I thought he was a surgical oncologist.”

    He would be the best one to ask as I had heard this through some people who work in that area. It was something about possible vaccines for cancer that deal with the measles virus. Here was a recent news piece.
    http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/64522.php

    I am not saying that he is but again he should say if he has a conflict if that is the case. Why did he hide behind “orac” and not reveal he was an MD until it was found out?

  84. Oh dear. Teresa has a little problem with reading comprehension.

    David Gorski is a surgical oncologist. That means he, you know, performs surgery on people with cancer.

    The rest of Teresa’s comment is just as misguided.

  85. Teresa

    Joseph and Liz,

    Prove that he is not involved instead of attacking me.

  86. Ulric

    @ HCN

    Sir, do you mock me, or what? Or haven’t you read my message at all?

    I will repeat the first line of my message for your benefit:

    “In this matter, I speak as a concerned parent, and not as a specialist.”

    If you are a parent, as you say you are, you would surely understand where I’m coming from. Surely, there is a heart under that callous personnality of yours. Unless you are just hiding behind a monicker and playing games with me?

    Yours sincerely,
    Ulric

  87. Grump

    It seems we’ve attracted more than just the usual well-meaning-but-ignorant pro-pox lot. We’re now getting the tin-foil-hat I-didn’t-take-my-meds-again (because it’s all a govt plot, I tell you!) raving lunatic brigade.

    Polio is a made-up disease? AIDS is a made-up disease?

    mike yadon, please return to your personal bunker to wait out the coming chemical apocolypse. Stop messing around in the world of Reality, a place you are clearly unfit for.

    Unless you’re actually pro-vaccination and are trying to make pro-pox people look more ridiculous than they already are. If so, it’s a lousy, underhanded tactic, and you’re still despicable.

  88. TheBlackCat

    Prove that he is not involved instead of attacking me.

    Wait, what? You made the accusation, it is up to you to substantiate it.

    That is ignoring the fact that Wakefield is known to have several massive conflicts of interest that he hid in his peer-reviewed research. There is a big difference between trying to hide your identity when blogging online versus blatantly lying when publishing peer-reviewed research.

  89. TheBlackCat

    If you are a parent, as you say you are, you would surely understand where I’m coming from. Surely, there is a heart under that callous personnality of yours. Unless you are just hiding behind a monicker and playing games with me?

    What, and you don’t think we are concerned? We don’t want kids dying from easily preventable diseases because of the lies spread by a group that is trying to make money off the suffering of other peoples’ children. The anti-vaxx crowd are not noble crusaders, that have at least as much financially to gain as the pharmaceutical companies do.

  90. Grump

    @Teresa: You made the accusation, you provide the evidence. I say Teresa is actual Andrew Wakefield. Prove (s)he is not!

    @Ulric: HCN is not being callous, he is merely living in the reality-based world, where individual stories (anecdotes) are not enough to prove anything scientifically, for a long list of reasons.

    Your appeals to emotion are invalid. Just because your children have suffered, and you believe it was caused by vaccines, does not give you the right to demand that countless other children must suffer and die because they were denied vaccines. If you want to withdraw, reduce, or in any way change the current vaccination regime, you are going to need E V I D E N C E, not anecdote.

  91. Teresa

    “You made the accusation, it is up to you to substantiate it.”

    Oh, really? I said I had heard he was and he and a few of his henchmen say, “No” he’s not. Just verbalizing the word is hardly evidence of innocence.

    Patents can be made with false names–what is orac but a false name…..

  92. And Mike Yadon has trouble with fundamental toxicology, known as long ago as the 1500s, and evidently fundamental chemistry, too.

    Toxicology: the adage is, “The dose makes the poison”.

    Chemistry: “Aluminum” isn’t a “chemical compound”. It is an element. The element is not part of vaccines. Aluminum salts (aluminum compounded with other elements) may be. The purpose is to increase the efficacy of the vaccine.

  93. Grump

    Teresa is actually an alien from Zeta Reticulai, her to destroy humanity by letting preventable diseases kill off the next generation.

    Prove you aren’t!

  94. Grump

    Teresa is so annoy that she makes me so mad that I forget how to type. That’s actually true, as evidenced by my last post.

    Why the hell must Orac proce a damned thing? You need to prove your accusations. Ever heard of innocent until proven guilty? Anyone can say anything about anyone, but it means bugger-all if you don’t have E V I D E N C E, a concept that is clearly foreign to the hard-of-thinking.

    And “I heard he has” is not evidence, for the love of Mike!

    And what is this fascination with Orac anyway? Is he the only blogger in the world opposing Wakefield and the other pro-pox child-murderers? Once again, E V I D E N C E is what is ultimately important, not the personality of individuals. Wakefield’s conflicts of interest are “icing on the cake”, as it were. The main issue is that he faked his results, and there is E V I D E N C E to prove it.

  95. Sir Eccles

    Talking of Patents and conflicts of interest…

    GB2325856
    “Pharmaceutical composition for treatment of MMR virus mediated disease comprising a transfer factor obtained from the dialysis of virus-specific lymphocytes”
    WAKEFIELD ANDREW JEREMY
    1998-12-09

    And if anyone is considering it, it is an offense under section 109 of the Patents Act to enter false information in the Register of Patents.

  96. Ulric

    @ Grump

    Are you a parent? If so, you must care about the well-being of your children.

    Well, so do I. And I will not be swayed by any argument that threatens to take that well-being away from my children, be it backed by all the facts, data, evidence or studies in the world. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. When I, and only I, as a parent, am satisfied that a vaccine does not represent a health hazard for my children, then it’s OK. Such is my right as a parent.

    It’s too bad that, despite all our technological advances, we are losing our humanity in the process. This is not the legacy I want to leave to my children.

    Your truly,
    Ulric.

  97. Grump

    Argh! I am so upset that I made another stupid typing error. It’s 12:30am where I am, and I have work to go to tomorrow, so for the sake of my salary, and of my blood-pressure, I am leaving this conversation for now.

    I don’t know why I let it bother me. I have not spawned, so I have no rug-rats that are being threatened here. And as far as my own immunity? Just keep your septic little ambulatory biological weapons the hell away from me, OK?

  98. Dear Teresa,

    “Prove that he is not involved instead of attacking me.”

    1. Prove:

    There’s this marvelous web-based resource called PubMed that indexes articles published in life-sciences journals.

    “PubMed is a service of the U.S. National Library of Medicine that includes over 18 million citations from MEDLINE and other life science journals for biomedical articles back to 1948. PubMed includes links to full text articles and other related resources.”

    It is free. It is widely used. The citations there are universally regarded as factual.

    So you could check out if this fellow D. Gorski had published anything about vaccines.

    [pause while searching PubMed for Gorski vaccine] — there’s about 26 articles. Oh, wait, we’re looking for Gorski D

    [pause while searching PubMed for Gorski D vaccine]

    Zippo. Nothing. None. Ergo, Gorski D has published nothing on vaccines, meaning his scientific career does not involve vaccines.

    There’s this other marvelous free internet service, the United States Patent and Trademark Office,

    http://patft.uspto.gov/

    You can search there, too!

    Searching on Gorski and vaccine there, a few results. Oh, look, nothing for D Gorski!

    So Gorski as a researcher in a vaccine-related field…well, no.

    2. Attack

    Could you explain how pointing out your factual deficits are an attack?

  99. Grump

    @Ulric: Why can’t I keep my promises and just go to bed? No-one is denying you your right to leave your children vulnerable to hideous diseases. That is currently not considered child abuse by any jurisdiction I know of, although it should be. But like I said, you’d better keep the little germ-bombs away from other children, lest their deaths be on your conscience.

    Yes, you have the right, nay, the obligation to care for your children to the best of your ability. But if you base you decisions on emotionally charged rhetoric and lies, you’re making a mistake, whether you can see that or not.

    And as for your repeated claims that the pro-health people of this world are somehow “inhuman” – That’s pure bull-shit.

  100. Grump

    I look forward to reading your next baseless rant about how the inhuman medical fraternity and their blog-reading minions are conspiring to kill your children just to make profit. Tomorrow. But for now I’m really going to bed. My “shill for big pharma” cheque bounced, so I’d better actually earn my regular salary.

  101. Julian

    “And I will not be swayed by any argument that threatens to take that well-being away from my children, be it backed by all the facts, data, evidence or studies in the world…When I, and only I, as a parent, am satisfied that a vaccine does not represent a health hazard for my children, then it’s OK. Such is my right as a parent.”

    That is hands down the most retarded thing anyone has ever said on this blog. And believe me, what with all the creationists running around, that’s saying something. You, sir, with your decision to ignore all evidence and data presented to you have earned the title of ‘Pompous Ass.’

    Actually, I’m glad Ulric has admitted he doesn’t care what the evidence says. It means where one step closer to reveling this raving maniacs to be just that, raving maniacs who should be ignored.

  102. Ulric

    @ Grump

    It is sad to see such fearmongering from educated people like you. Really sad. You should know better. If you ever become a parent, I think you’ll understand what I’m getting at.

    Have a good night’s sleep and take care.

    Yours truly,
    Ulric

  103. Ulric

    @ Julian

    Sir, I do not like your tone. Have I talked to you in a disrespectful way? Neither should you.

    And I am certain that if you were standing in front of me, you would not be having that condescending attitude. It’s so easy to call people names and try to intimidate them when you are hiding behind a computer and from such a distance. I’ve got news for you : IT’S NOT WORKING!

    Yours truly,
    Ulric.

  104. Mike Yadon

    That’s right grump, i said it. AIDS IS A MADE UP DISEASE. A complete scam. POLIO IS A MADE UP DISEASE. A complete scam. Both blanket terms used as a means to explain the physiological changes that occur from total body burden caused by overtoxicity.

    FEAR OF THE INVISIBLE – Janine Roberts

    Read it. It will blow your mind.

    That’s all i’m going to say on the issue.

    Here are some great webistes to check out as well.

    http://www.brainguardmd.com – goes into detail on how the immune response to these toxic chemicals cause blood sludging (excessive amount of white blood cells being released to combat the foreign proteins and toxins). This in turn causes ischemic strokes.

    http://www.whale.to/vaccines.html

    http://www.thinktwice.com

  105. Torbjörn Larsson, OM

    I’m rather bemused by the fact that anti-vaxxer David Kirby hasn’t been found to have any other income the last 4 years other than by publishing anti-science articles.

    So now you don’t need to sell actual scam products for money, it is enough to make indirect PR for them. “O brave new world! That has such people in’t!” :-/

  106. HCN

    Ulric, you also missed where I said “My son never got the DPT vaccine because of a history of seizures, at a time when our county was in the midst of a pertussis epidemic. It was also at the time when over 120 Americans died from measles.”

    This is why I want real data, not anecdotes. My son was put into real jeopardy from the pertussis epidemic as an infant. I am not mocking you, I am just asking for real data. I could say you are mocking me in minimizing my son’s issues with seizures and vulnerability to the real diseases as an infant (by the way, I could pile it on even more since he was also diagnosed with a severe genetic heart condition as a young teenager).

    With over a dozen real American babies dying from pertussis each, the return of haemophilus influenza type b causing more deaths in childrens, and with measles coming back — anecdotes will not do, only real evidence (preferably not paid by lawyers).

    Now the following is mocking:

    Mike Yodon, you have now invoked Scopie’s Law: “In any discussion involving science or medicine, citing Whale.to as a credible source loses you the argument immediately …and gets you laughed out of the room.”

    (John Scudamore, the pig farmer who runs whale.to, has claimed that a satanic ley line burned his bum!)

    And what is even funnier is that you are pushing the idiot “brainguardmd”, Moulton claims he can diagnose and cure from a video of a person:
    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/10/vaccines_cause_microvascular_strokes_that_cause_autism.php?utm_source=sbhomepage&utm_medium=link&utm_content=channellink (oh, Teresa, I just checked Gorski’s profile on ScienceBasedMedicine, he is a surgical oncologist, that has nothing to do with vaccines)

    Yep, you are definitely in the crank zone!

  107. Toby

    I was never vaccinated as a child.
    I’ll just say it was amusing to see all the other children get sick from diseases they were vaccinated against, whilst I was often a very healthy child.
    I’m 27 now and very rarely get sick.

    The more violently people respond to alternative opinions of a topic,
    the more that topic should be looked into.

    = )

  108. Sigh…

    Someone over at A0A must have gotten hold of this one. I can’t imagine all the cranks came out of the woodwork spontaneously at the same time.

    Phil, can I borrow your “The Stupid, It Burns” pic?

  109. Prove that he is not involved instead of attacking me.

    You made the claim. I told you it was false, because, well, it is false. The burden of proof is on you.

    I predict you’ll bluster and keep making the unfounded accusation without one shred of evidence.

  110. TheBlackCat

    It is sad to see such fearmongering from educated people like you. Really sad. You should know better. If you ever become a parent, I think you’ll understand what I’m getting at.

    Fearmongering? Pot, meet kettle. By not getting your kids vaccinated, you are not only putting their lives at risk, but the lives of everyone else they meet. These diseases are deadly, and if they don’t kill they often cause permanent, irreversible damage. You are willingly accepting known, proven risks to the lives of your children and everyone elses’ based on nothing but rumors, logical fallacies, and baseless accusations.

  111. Ulric

    @ HCN

    I am truly sorry to hear about your son’s condition. I apologize if I have caused you additional pain in your ordeal to cope with this situation. It’s just that I had found your reply to be, well, let’s just say, a bit curt. Rest assured that I will never, ever, knowingly minimize or dismiss the pain of parents who have to deal with children who suffer, especially since I have been there myself, and still am today. As a matter of fact, I can tell you that my daughter is often afflicted by episodes of mononucleosis. Her immune system seems to be very weak, and this is a cause of great concern to me. She also seems to be suffering from an early phase of anorexia.

    You see, as a parent, and I’m sure you will appreciate this, I tend to have a protective approach towards my children. In other words, it’s not just about the hard, cold facts. The human factor has also an important role to play in all this.

    How old is your son? Do you have other children?

    Respectfully yours,
    Ulric

  112. Ulric

    @ The Black Cat

    Sir, if I did not know better, I would say that you are putting words in my mouth and attributing me with intentions I don’t have.

    Have you actually read my posts? Judging from your response, it would appear you have not.

    All I’m telling parents is to be informed, fully informed, before making a decision on such a crucial issue as vaccination. It is their right as parents. But you know that already, don’t you. You’re just giving me a ride, aren’t you?

    Yours truly,
    Ulric

  113. And I thought we were having trouble in Texas with the creationist heading up the education board. Man, the bats have left the belfries here and all come to this blog to comment.

    “I was never vaccinated as a child. Never got sick.” Yes. Because everyone else around you was vaccinated and protected you, dumbass. It’s a tad sadistic of you to laugh at people who are ill. I can’t say it’s surprising, however.

    “I’d rather have the disease.” Would your child rather have the disease? Let’s see…how about diphtheria? Hope you’re around to clear that membrane away from the throat so they don’t suffocate to death in the nighttime. Oh, I know. Polio! Iron lung, anyone? Or how about pertussis? Have you ever seen a baby die from pertussis? Chest sucking in so hard you can outline the stomach, little lungs exploding? Yes, rather have that any day, for sure.

    The above was once a daily reality. I can assure you that for most of these antivax control-freak people, if there were a diphtheria outbreak in their community killing several hundred folks a week (diphtheria kind of had a way with that), they’d be hammering down the doors screaming for a vaccine. Bitching about vaccines is a luxury that people who once really did have to try to live through these diseases–or watch their beautifully healthy child play happily one day and die from the next–did not have.

    I’d sit back and laugh at you, too, if it weren’t so deadly serious. Fatally serious, really.

  114. Jeremy

    OK anti-vac people lets be clear about this – not treating children preventativly is a form of child abuse, pure and simple. Like not sterilizing their bottles, or letting your kids drink untreated water. The odds of issues are FAR outweighed by the down side on non-treatment. Because some bozos in the UK are anti, I nearly died and spent months in hospital as baby. Because my mother was born before measles vac, she is legally deaf. Because of a stupid hippy parent, a child I know is blind in one eye from birth from “harmless” chicken pox. Antis are as bad as child sexual deviants! Murders and child torturers. It is slap in the face for you if we ever meet, parent or not! And yes, that’s from a parent who can actually think about facts, not the oral defications of stupid celebs who should be in jail for crimes against humanity. Selfish, stupid punks … I am sick of rationally trying to deal with you lot, a bit of anti-drugs style social disgracing is now required.

  115. Teresa

    Orac said-

    “I predict you’ll bluster and keep making the unfounded accusation without one shred of evidence.”

    The shred of evidence was a conversation. I’ve already posted that so time will tell what happens with that information.

    Why again do you use a false name on these blogs?

  116. miska

    Hey, if we followed the anti-vaccination crowd’s advice, we’d get a nifty way of birth control. Once adolescent or adult male gets the mumps, because of not contracting it while a child or through the smarter method of vaccination, then we can almost be sure the such a person is sterile.

    Actually this isn’t strictly true. It CAN make men/adolescent boys sterile, but ‘almost sure’ is not accurate. It is a very common perception though. My second husband was absolutely certain that having mumps as a teenager made him infertile – our little girl was a wonderful surprise for us both, – it turns out his fertility isnt impaired at all.

    I’m a very strong believer in vaccination – but I think it is essential that the medical profession is honest and receptive to the voices of people who either have experienced side effects or see side effects in their children. Often these are very mild compared to having the actual illness, but they are nevertheless areal consequence and something some parents might have concerns about.
    My middle child had a bad reaction to the pertussis vaccine, including a seizure. Medical advice was not to have the second and third parts of the vaccine, but there was a real reluctance to accept that the vaccine was responsible for the reaction. My third child had a mild reaction to one of her vaccines – an upset stomach, diarrhea and nappy rash. It happened with both does of the vaccine, and was something I was happy to accept as a mild inconvience and vastly superior to actually being ill, but the nurse delivering the vaccinations gave me a huge lecture in front of a room full of people about how ‘that vaccination doesn’t cause that symptom.’ I found this extremely patronising, and went and got a second opinion from a GP/friend who said actually, she did see lots of similar reactions, it was just not public policy to ‘frighten people.’

    i think the effect of this ‘doctor knows best, there is no real problem’ in the long run is that people believe that their experiences are NOT being listened to or factored into the experiences of vaccination, and you even get people who feel that the medical profession have something to hide.

    Vaccination is a modern day miracle, and I’m very grateful for it. But its smart to take note of side effects as well – to address people’s fears ( so they don’t get swayed by nutty conspiracy theorists) and to collect data for future reference.

  117. Mark Hansen

    Teresa, I’ll assume you haven’t been on the internet very long. Lots of people use false names. TheBlackCat, for instance. It doesn’t make them evil and it is the same as a CB’ers handle. If you’re that worried about it though, why don’t you use your full name when you post?

  118. Mike Yadon

    FEAR OF THE INVISIBLE – Janine Roberts

    By vaccinating your children, you are complicit in child abuse. Read the book. Every single parent that is authorizing the use of toxic poisons as a means to prevent disease is in effect creating disease in the very body that you want so dearly to protect.

    So, I suppose the old adage is true… What you resist, persists….

    Have fun poisoning your children and perpetuating violence and abuse against children. Because that is what you are doing by allowing your children to be used as guinea pigs by the establishment.

    Have fun with that. I’ll pass.

  119. Todd W.

    @Mike Yadon

    And what poisons would those be? Please list them, which vaccines contain them in the final product, and cite your sources.

    Thanks!

  120. Sylvia

    Wow, what an angry bunch of zealots here. Parents have the right to full disclosusre of all the risks and benefits of vaccination. Then it is their right to pick and choose which of these medical procedures they allow their children to receive. But currently, parents are not given all the facts. The benefits of vaccination are hugely overstated, and the risks are hugely understated. On top of that, there are now vaccines for sexualy transmitted diseases that not all parents think are needed, especially hepatitis b vaccination for newborns. Parents have every right to make their own decisions, even if it drives some of you stark raving mad.

  121. Mike Yadon

    Todd W.,
    I’m not going to do your research for you. But all you have to do is ask your pediatrician for the package inserts.

    But most often, the jabs contain:

    ethyl mercury – even when they claim they’ve taken it out, independent labs have shown that its still in there.

    aluminum

    formaldehyde

    foreign proteins – tissue from monkey kidneys, pigs, chickens, etc. (most often these tissues are contaminated with a host of virii of their own – google sv40 for instance)

    Or if you’d like, you can view some of them on this site:
    http://whale.to/vaccines/pack.html

  122. Mike Yadon

    Sylvia,
    That’s what I was thinking. What an attack on parents who just want to due their own research. I can’t even believe some of the replies on this blog posting or the comments on Digg about this article. This is an outright attack on those of us who have decided to use our own free will and not be forced to do something that is completely unnecessary.

    None of these people have done any real research on any of the diseases and the history of vaccinations.

    It’s just a complete joke. A bunch of puppets spouting off cdc nonsense and throwing out names of boogeyman diseases in the name of financial reaping for big pharma.

  123. Teresa, I’ll assume you haven’t been on the internet very long. Lots of people use false names. TheBlackCat, for instance. It doesn’t make them evil and it is the same as a CB’ers handle. If you’re that worried about it though, why don’t you use your full name when you post?.

  124. Julian

    @Sylvia

    “The benefits of vaccination are hugely overstated, and the risks are hugely understated.”

    Back it up, dollface. Back it up or never repeat it again.

    Lying is a disgusting habit I’ve noticed mothers in the anti-vaccine movement have no problem with.

    @Todd

    he won’t answer you. None of this idiots will.

    Damn it. I’m so angry right now I’m shaking.

    @ Ulric

    “It’s so easy to call people names and try to intimidate them when you are hiding behind a computer and from such a distance.”

    Looks like our host didn’t like my response to you. I guess he wants this site to be kid friendly.

    Rest assured that if I met an anti-vax retard like you in the streets, I’d treat him with the same contempt I’d do an aids denialists or 9/11 truther or any other retard group. You don’t deserve respect. You don’t deserve civility. I will show you neither.

  125. Todd W.

    @Ulric

    They will NOT be bullied or coerced in any way to have their children vaccinated until they have looked at all the angles and are very reasonably satisfied it poses no risk whatsoever to the health of their children.

    This is an unrealistic expectation. All medicines pose some risk, no matter how small that risk is. So, vaccines will never “pose no risk whatsoever”. I hope they will also weigh the risks associated with not vaccinating, or altering the vaccination schedule based solely on speculation and fear-based web sites like NVIC. Not vaccinating also carries risks with it, and those risks are actually greater than the risks of vaccinating.

    You also said it doesn’t matter how many studies or what evidence is presented, which says to me that you will take an irrational approach, opting for a path with greater risk because you emotionally believe the risk is lower.

    I can understand your desire to protect your children and for their children to be protected when their time comes. It’s natural. However, the best way to protect them is to follow the evidence, rather than emotion.

    Just a side note. When I was researching both sides of this issue for a paper about a year ago, I looked at the blog-offshoot of NVIC, Vaccine Awakening, by Barbara Loe Fisher. In among the typical misinformation about MMR and mercury/thimerosal was her statement that if it wasn’t mercury, then there must be something else in the vaccine causing autism. Her comments on the issue took on a very conspiracy theory feel to them. I haven’t read any of her posts since I finished that paper, so I can’t say if she’s continued to move the goalposts as new evidence against the vaccine-autism link comes out. As for NVIC itself, there is some legitimate information on the site and good advice, like reading the package inserts for vaccines and being involved in the medical process for your child, but they also tend to veer toward fear-mongering and misinformation against vaccines.

  126. Teresa

    Sylvia and Mike,

    You are being ignored and instead the attack is in full force, for now, at me since I brought up something that obviously has hit a nerve. You are also being ignored because what you are saying is real and painful and it cannot be dismissed but rest assured they will eventually get back to you with attack posts dripping with sarcasm and hints of desperation.

    Another post that has been completely ignored is this one:

    “Fielding j hurst Says:
    March 29th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
    …… my daughter had a seizure after 4 month vaccines. The doctors dismissed it. From the first nano second their default position was no way now how was vaccine related. No more seizures until the day of the 8 month batch I shots. We had a slew that day, some very long. Again, no way the vaccine was related. That started a run of, to date, 321 seizures and our journey with autism.”…….

    Fielding j hurst I am with you on that journey of autism and hope things get better. Here is an upcoming consortium that may help in your search for help with autism and seizures:

    http://www.ageofautism.com/2009/03/autism-one-announces-seizures-think-tank-in-may.html

  127. Mike Yadon

    Todd,
    it’s called aluminum.

  128. Todd W.

    @Julian

    I can understand your anger, but keep Phil’s commenting policy in mind. The main rule, “Don’t be a jerk.” Enough of calling people “retards” and such.

    @Mike Yadon

    You are making the claims, it is up to you to provide citations to support those claims.

    Ethylmercury – absent from nearly every final product vaccine. Even flu vaccines off thimerosal-free versions. Please show that this is toxic in the amounts currently present in the vaccine schedule, taking into account the rate at which it is eliminated from the body.

    Aluminum – please show evidence that the element aluminum is present in its pure form in any vaccine. Aluminum salts (aluminum that is chemically bound to another element, much like Sodium and Chlorine, both toxic substances, are chemically bound together in normal table salt, a non-toxic substance)

    Formaldehyde – used during the production of the vaccine but removed before the final product. Law requires the finished product to have less than .1 mcg per dose. Please show evidence that any vaccine has more than this amount in the final formulation. Also show evidence that the amounts (whether above or below this level) have led directly to adverse reactions in a significant portion of the population.

    Foreign Proteins – again, these are used during the production phase of the vaccine to grow the virus. Not all vaccines are developed this way. Those which do use this process clearly include in their labeling that people with allergies to any of the substances used should not receive that vaccine. E.g., vaccines made using eggs include an egg allergy warning. For the average person with no allergies, any proteins still in the final product have no ill effects, though I’m willing to see evidence that you can present showing that such proteins are harmful in non-allergic populations. As to other viruses being present, that would be adulteration of the product, putting it in violation of FDA regulations. If any vaccine is adulterated in such a way, then it is in both the public’s and the manufacturer’s best interest to keep it out of the market.

    And as already noted, whale.to is not a sound, scientific site from which to gather information.

  129. Sylvia

    The benefits of vaccination are hugely overstated, and the risks are hugely understated.

  130. Mike Yadon

    TODD W.

    HOW ABOUT YOU SHOW ME PROOF THAT THOSE THINGS HAVE BEEN TAKEN OUT.

    Did any of you read about the recent flu vax from Baxter that contained live H5N1 avian flu viruses?

    Hmm, i wonder how that got in there and why? Must have been for our benefit.

  131. Todd W.

    @Sylvia

    The benefits of vaccination are hugely overstated, and the risks are hugely understated.

    Can you provide the statistics that illustrate the discrepancy in risks? Please provide the evidence which supports your claim, along with citations. The % risk of injury from the vaccine and the disease it prevents should suffice.

  132. Todd W.

    @Mike Yadon

    Nice attempt to shift focus away from your lack of evidence. I’m still waiting.

  133. Sylvia

    I personally know dozens of families who saw similar things to what I saw; that their baby reacted violently to mulitple vaccines, these reactions were ingnored by our childrens doctors, and our children did not recover the skills they lost and went on to be diagnosed with autism. The medical community calls that a coincidence. As we parents talk to each other, we realize that this phenomenon is not so rare after all. We now know that our experiences are brushed under the rug, so other parents can continue to think such reactions are rare.

    All the vicious name calling and chest-thumping-rightousness won’t change the fact that our family and friends witnessed the massive injury to our childrens health and cognitive abilities by the current over aggressive vaccine schedule. The risks are under reported and under documented. It doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. That is why parents are scared and why many no longer trust the vaccine program.

  134. Todd W.

    @Sylvia

    You have anecdotes, based on a self-selecting group, all with experiences of correlation, but no evidence of actual causation. How many people have you spoken with? Have you talked to all of the people who have had no bad experiences?

    Again, please provide evidence for your claims that the risks of vaccination outweigh the benefits of vaccination, and that the risks of the disease are not outweighed by the benefits of vaccination. If your evidence lies solely on the stories of yourself and others, that doesn’t count (not being mean here, it’s just the nature of science). You need controls to rule out other possibilities and biases. If there are no published studies that vaccines are causing injuries in such large amounts, then why not? Are people researching such a threat to our health? If so, who, and when will their results be published.

    Without valid evidence, making a statement like “the risks outweigh the benefits” is premature. Show us the evidence (not just stories) and we will seriously consider your opinion. Otherwise, that’s all it is…an opinion.

  135. @Todd: You’re such a trooper to continue trying. I must applaud you. However, I fear that you’re talking to brick walls.

    This issue has become like the Moon Hoaxers and 9/11 truthers. No matter what logic you present and what evidence shows their claim to be wrong, they will simply shriek louder in an attempt to drown out dissent. The hard and fast shriekers are utterly hopeless as evidenced by Mike Yadon’s rantings.

  136. Ulric

    @ Julian

    Sir, if you do not want to show respect to other people, do not expect any in return. I am certain your parents have taught you better manners than that.

    What anger, what bitterness, what acrimony! First, we had road rage. Then, air rage. And now, blog rage. An interesting new development in our society! I do not understand why you insult other bloggers like that. What does that say of you? Is this the way you treat every person who are legitimately entitled to their own opinions?

    And I maintain that you would not have the same cavalier attitude if we were to meet in person. That, I am certain of!

    On the other hand, you may just be having a bad day. I can understand, given the overall climate of uncertainty we are currently experiencing on a global scale.

    @ Julian
    @ Todd

    Let me ask you, and for that matter, Todd as well, a question: are you a parent? Do you have children of your own? The reason I am asking is, you can’t really understand what it is to be in someone else’s shoes until you have experienced it yourself. It’s so easy to judge another person based on our own set of beliefs or on “conventional wisdom”. Trust me, because I’ve been there before. And I’m still working on educating that conditionned reflex. And it’s a lot of work, believe me!

    I have nothing against debating an issue, event if the arguments get somewhat heated. But there’s one thing I will never tolerate: disrespect or abuse. I will always stand up to that. It’s regrettable that this unfortunate habit is quickly becoming the norm in the blogosphere. Moderation appears to be a thing of the past.

    I will now take my leave. But before I do, I wish to reiterate the following advice to all parents out there: Be informed. Be fully informed when it comes to your children’s health. It is your utmost right.

    Ulric

  137. First of all, I couldn’t help but notice the HUGE Walgreens advertisement in the top left corner of this page. What do you take us anti-vaxers for? Idiots? Pharmaceutical funds help this blog out A LOT. It is no wonder why you hate anti-vaxers and think we are idiots. Yes, we are people that are taking profits aways from the pharmaceutical companies AKA drug cartel AKA drug mafia.

    My baby and I were injured by vaccines in 2007. I later learned I have 3 other victims in my family – one death – my niece in 1975 after her 2 mo. vaccines. Not only are vaccines deadly, but they DO NOT even give you immunity. I will take polio, diptheria, tetanus, pertussis, chickenpox, measles, mumps, rubella, rotavirus, Hep B and whatever else over deadly vaccines ANYDAY! My family will NEVER receive another vaccine again. Tens of thousands of victims in the U.S. alone are saying the same thing. Big Pharma can take their vaccines and stick ‘em where the sun don’t shine.

    Be sure to check out my blog for the “real facts” instead of wasting your time with this ridiculous, one-sided article backed by pharmaceutical funds.

  138. Teresa

    Mike, Sylvia, and Fielding j hurst – my post was in moderation for over 3 hours –odd–but just want to point out as predicted-the attack has shifted to Mike and Sylvia while Fielding j hurst’s post continues to be ignored..so I’ll try one more time and see if anyone can respond to his daughter’s vaccines, seizures, and autism.

    Fielding have you done testing on mitochondria dysfunction?

    Poling, J. S., R. E. Frye, et al. (2006). “Developmental regression and mitochondrial dysfunction in a child with autism.” J Child Neurol 21(2): 170-2.

    Autistic spectrum disorders can be associated with mitochondrial dysfunction. We present a singleton case of developmental regression and oxidative phosphorylation disorder in a 19-month-old girl. Subtle abnormalities in the serum creatine kinase level, aspartate aminotransferase, and serum bicarbonate led us to perform a muscle biopsy, which showed type I myofiber atrophy, increased lipid content, and reduced cytochrome c oxidase activity. There were marked reductions in enzymatic activities for complex I and III. Complex IV (cytochrome c oxidase) activity was near the 5% confidence level. To determine the frequency of routine laboratory abnormalities in similar patients, we performed a retrospective study including 159 patients with autism (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders-IV and Childhood Autism Rating Scale) not previously diagnosed with metabolic disorders and 94 age-matched controls with other neurologic disorders. Aspartate aminotransferase was elevated in 38% of patients with autism compared with 15% of controls (P <.0001). The serum creatine kinase level also was abnormally elevated in 22 (47%) of 47 patients with autism. These data suggest that further metabolic evaluation is indicated in autistic patients and that defects of oxidative phosphorylation might be prevalent.

  139. HCN

    Ulric asked “How old is your son? Do you have other children? ”

    I said that he was vulnerable to pertussis at the same time that over 120 Americans died from measles. With that information you can find out how old he is.

    And yes I have other children, and they are fully vaccinated. I even made sure they got their second MMR early when there was a measles outbreak in a nearby private school. They are both healthy.

    Do you have real answers to my question? (actually, now that this has scrolled to the second page, I doubt I will come back since it has turned silly).

  140. Sylvia

    Yeah, the words “anecdotes” and “coincidence” pop up a lot of these types of discussion boards. Why would I need to prove to you what I have personally experienced? My experience has been that vaccine reactions are grossly under reported. I know lots of people that have had the same experience. That cannot be labeled a “rare” occurance by anyones standards.

    Something terrible is happening to our children, and many parents say vaccines were the catalyst. But some people just say “nah, nah, nah, nah, PROVE it!” That is not helping the situation at all. It is not helping the injured children, it is not helping other parents make informed choices, and it is not instilling confidence in the vaccine program.

  141. Todd W.

    @Sylvia

    Why would I need to prove to you what I have personally experienced?

    Because personal experiences are subject to lots of different sources of bias. There may be aspects that you, consciously or unconsciously, don’t pay attention to. There may be details that you just don’t know about, but which are very important to the case at hand. There are lots of ways in which your interpretation of the experience can be wrong. We want scientific evidence because the scientific process minimizes those holes in observation, understanding and bias. We aren’t trying to be callous or discount your experience as having happened. What we are saying is that your explanation for what happened might not reflect the full picture, the reality of the situation.

    My experience has been that vaccine reactions are grossly under reported.

    Are you familiar with VAERS? Looking at that, I would say that supposed problems with vaccines are not under reported. The caveat to this: VAERS just records reports of bad reactions, whether there is actually a causal relationship or not.

    I know lots of people that have had the same experience. That cannot be labeled a “rare” occurance by anyones standards.

    How many is “lots”? Out of the entire population of people that receive vaccinations, how many have you talked to? Of those, how many have had adverse reactions? And of those with adverse reactions, how many have a proven causal link to vaccines?

    Something terrible is happening to our children…

    What is the something terrible, and where is the scientific evidence that shows a causal link to vaccines?

    and many parents say vaccines were the catalyst.

    Lots of anecdotes, but no data.

    But some people just say “nah, nah, nah, nah, PROVE it!” That is not helping the situation at all.

    Actually, the best way to fix the system is to have the data and show a causal link, if there is one. It is with that kind of scientific information that power can be given to the people to put pressure on the manufacturers, on Congress and on the FDA. Scientific data props up one’s case. Not having sound data sinks it.

  142. Todd W.

    @Ulric

    Not sure why you lumped me in with Julian regarding disrespect or abuse. If I was disrespectful in my post, please point it out and I will apologize. It remains that your reaction is natural, but it is not rational. If I were in a similar situation, I would probably have a similar reaction, and it would probably take a good bit of self-control to overcome my natural, emotional response.

    The rest of my comment stands.

  143. Todd W.

    @Teresa

    Regarding Fielding J’s account of his child, we cannot properly evaluate it as we don’t have all of the details. That is part of the problem with anecdotes.

  144. Joseph

    “Oh, really? I said I had heard he was and he and a few of his henchmen say, “No” he’s not. Just verbalizing the word is hardly evidence of innocence.”

    @Teresa: That’s absolutely ridiculous. OK, prove you’re not a Russian spy. If you can’t prove it, we’ll just have to assume you are.

    You see, you can’t just go around making up random accusations, and then expecting the accused to prove their innocence.

  145. Teresa

    “we cannot properly evaluate it as we don’t have all of the details. That is part of the problem with anecdotes.”

    What is it that takes an occurrence, like seizures, from anecdotal to….data? This is a parent witnessing seizures — not rats in a lab.

    Try as you may, this kind of “anecdotal seizure data” is just as important to the safety of the vaccine program as all of the covert and overt work many of you do.

  146. Joseph

    “Why would I need to prove to you what I have personally experienced? My experience has been that vaccine reactions are grossly under reported. I know lots of people that have had the same experience. That cannot be labeled a “rare” occurance by anyones standards.”

    @Sylvia: You don’t. To be blunt, whether your experience is true or not is not very relevant. Your experience does not demonstrate a scientific principle or mechanism took place. There is such a thing as coincidence, for example. There is such a thing as observer bias and so forth. That’s why science requires more than just testimonials and personal experience. Do you think the FDA should approve drugs based on testimonials?

    Also, I think vaccine reactions are actually over-reported. Just look at VAERS. It’s been shown that vaccine litigation has an impact on the reports that are filed. Who knows how many of those reports can simply be explained as coincidence.

  147. Sylvia

    Joseph doesn’t think my experience is relevant. Todd says the same, but in a much more diplomatic manner. There are a lot of Todd’s and Jospeh’s out there trying to say that parental observation doesn’t matter. That the people that know the child best can’t possibly be counted on to understand when they are being injured by a pharamceutical. I say they are wrong. And I have as much right to say they are wrong as they do to say the same about me. But they sure sound like they THINK they have more rights than me.

    They keep trying to assert that only commenters here that agree with them are relevent. That has been the continueing theme here.

  148. Joseph

    @Syliva: It’s not about parents vs. non-parents. I’m a parent. I have an autistic kid too.

    It’s about science vs. personal experience. If science says one thing, and personal experience says another, science wins every time. It’s as simple as that.

  149. Todd W.

    @Teresa

    What is it that takes an occurrence, like seizures, from anecdotal to….data?

    For starters, more than just a comment on a blog. Second, controlled observations by those trained to make such observations. We don’t know anything about other events that were happening around the same time that may also have had an effect. We don’t know the actual timing between administration of the vaccine and observation of the reactions. We don’t know if there were other, subtler signs that may have suggested something, nor the timing between the onset of those subtle cues and the reported reaction. Were there hints that something may have been amiss before administration of the vaccine? Any symptoms that would have been missed without careful observation? Was there anything that was not reported by the parent because it slipped the parent’s mind (e.g., eating something that is not out of the ordinary)? People tend to remember that which is unusual or not part of the ordinary routine (e.g., they’ll remember the vaccination, but not necessarily a meal, because the vaccination is unusual) regardless of whether or not there is an actual causal connection between the unusual event and the observed reactions.

    Regarding the Poling case, first off, it would seem that there could be a pretty big conflict of interest and potential for bias, if the author is the same Poling who is the father of Hannah Poling, and if the subject of the paper is Hannah. The results may still be sound, but that is one warning flag to be cautious of the results. Second, it examines a single case and, based on the abstract you posted, does not say anything about vaccines causing autism. Third, its conclusions suggest further research is necessary, but again, says nothing about vaccines. How this bolsters the “vaccines cause autism” argument is beyond me. And, before you mention the court decision on Poling’s case, IIRC the court stated that the Polings’ lawyer showed a reasonable connection between the vaccine and exacerbation of Hannah’s mitochondrial disorder, but that the ruling does not state that the vaccine caused autism.

  150. Todd W.

    @Sylvia

    There are a lot of Todd’s and Jospeh’s out there trying to say that parental observation doesn’t matter. That the people that know the child best can’t possibly be counted on to understand when they are being injured by a pharamceutical.

    I’m not saying that parental observation doesn’t matter at all, rather that it is not a reliable thing on which to base public health policy. Are the majority of parents trained in medicine or biochemistry, to understand what is actually going on? Are they objective enough to examine all of the data to draw a sound, scientific conclusion that is not based on emotion or affected by bias? My guess is that few parents do.

    I, personally, don’t have the skills to determine whether a medicine has a causal connection to a reaction, but I know the types of questions to ask. I also know that my own observations are inherently flawed, in no small part because I am so close to the situation.

    At best, parental observations are a call for research, but they fall far short of establishing a causal connection.

  151. Mike Yadon

    you guys sure can talk the talk. documented vs. undocumented. personal experience vs. science.

    the bottom line is that you are still injecting aluminum and mercury into infants in quantities that are vastly superior to the limits set by the fda itself.

    and that is the bottom line. you won’t get a dollar from me, big pharma. your whole operation is nothing more than fear mongering in the name of greed.

    Here is an example of what i am speaking of for those of you that require sources…

    From merck’s own insert on the hep b vax:
    http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/r/recombivax_hb/recombivax_pi.pdf

    There is .5mg of aluminum in the vaccine.

    From a 1952 study on aluminum by Merck:
    http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/hydro/al.htm

    4 ppm of aluminum in human blood can cause it to colagulate.
    Aluminum in humans is documented to Inhibit Learning.

  152. Teresa

    Todd,

    I think that you know very well that the study had to do with vaccines as the child was vaccinated and became autistic.

    The rest of your post is your opinion…and it has little merit to be pertinent

    The amount of energy that many of you use to try and stop this truth is fascinating.

  153. Sylvia

    Hey we are getting somewhere here Todd! Yes, I fully agree with you, parental observations ARE a call for research. Not epidemiolgical studies designed to “reasure” me (that is another word that pops up a lot) that vaccines are safe. And why is no one looking at the kids that reacted adversely? Why are they not being studied?

    And I would love to see vaccines looked at individualy for their independent risks and benefits. Some vaccines are more nescessary than others. Some are safer than others. Some companies have better quality control standards that others. Some people are geneticaly more predisposed to react adversely to different componants of certain vaccines. It would be nice to dig a little deeper instead of just getting the constant blanket assurances that they are all hunky dorey.

    And I never said that vaccine risks outweigh their benefits. For some people that is probably true, but I never said that. I said that their benefits are over rated. Vaccine promoters tend to gloss over the effect of plumbing and improved hygiene in bringing infectious disease rates down. That is not really fair to leave that out, and give all the credit to vaccine programs.

    When a person undergoes any medical procedure, they need to evaluate the risks involved. But when parents are not given all the facts about vaccine risks, they are not able to make a truely informed consent.

  154. Mickey

    hmmm…. still standing by for any pointers. Here is my original (ignored) post:

    I would be interested in pointers to any research that shows that any vaccines have been tested, particularly if they have been tested on children. I know it’s common knowledge that vaccines work, and are safe but would like to see the science behind the common knowledge. Thanks!

  155. Todd W.

    @Sylvia

    And why is no one looking at the kids that reacted adversely?

    This was the same call that was made regarding a vaccine-autism link. The studies were done. The results showed that vaccines do not cause autism. The problem is that the people who called for the research are not accepting the results, and instead they call for more research. Nothing will be enough for them, until something comes along that jibes with their preconceived notions of what’s going on. The data don’t matter.

    Vaccine promoters tend to gloss over the effect of plumbing and improved hygiene in bringing infectious disease rates down.

    Improved hygiene certainly played a role in overall improvements in public health. However, improved plumbing doesn’t play much of a role in the reduction of person-to-person contagions, such as chicken pox, measles, etc., and it also has no effect on whether or not someone will contract tetanus. Personal hygiene helps in the reduction of passing along the infectious agents, but how many children (or even adults) do you know that have perfect personal hygiene (i.e., always use a tissue or their arm to cover their mouth when they cough or sneeze, always sanitize their hands after a cough, sneeze or contact with their mouth/nose, quarantine themselves for the entire duration of the contagious phase of the illness, etc.).

    Hygiene improvements have had more of an impact when it comes to pest-borne infectious diseases (e.g., bubonic plague) and in hospitals, but for person-to-person contact, things haven’t changed quite as much.

    So, for childhood diseases, like varicella, measles, mumps, rubella, pertussis, polio, and so forth, vaccines have, actually, had a pretty dramatic effect in reducing infection rates.

    When a person undergoes any medical procedure, they need to evaluate the risks involved.

    I definitely agree with you there.

    But when parents are not given all the facts about vaccine risks, they are not able to make a truely informed consent.

    Doctors don’t always say everything for a variety of reasons (lack of time, risks are exceedingly rare and/or needlessly cause worry or fear, telling the parent may lead to decisions which have more risk than the vaccines, etc.). Some of those reasons may be justified, some might not be.

    So, what should parents do? They can do some investigation for themselves. Good places to go for information on contagious diseases and vaccines are the FDA and CDC, as well as the NIH. They have a wealth of information, and the CDC even has information comparing the odds of adverse reactions due to a vaccine compared to the odds of an adverse reaction due to the disease being prevented. Other sources are well-respected medical journals, such as JAMA, the Lancet, etc. PubMed is a good resource for this. However, as the Wakefield case illustrates, even respected journals can be hoodwinked.

  156. Todd W.

    @Teresa

    My response regarding the study you quoted was based on the abstract you posted. I have not read the entire article.

  157. Todd W.

    @Mickey

    I would be interested in pointers to any research that shows that any vaccines have been tested, particularly if they have been tested on children. I know it’s common knowledge that vaccines work, and are safe but would like to see the science behind the common knowledge. Thanks!

    Sorry I missed this and that you have waited so long. The package inserts/labeling for all drugs, biologics and medical devices must contain sections for special populations, such as the elderly, pregnant women, renally or hepatically impaired patients, and pediatric populations. This section states whether or not the product has been studied in the population in question.

    You can also visit the FDA web site to look for information on the vaccines (classified as biologics, by FDA regulation). While proprietary information is not publicly available (e.g., specific formulae, proprietary methods used, etc.), the results of studies conducted by the manufacturer to support their marketing application are available. Depending on what you are looking for, you may need to file a Freedom of Information Act request.

    If you have any trouble finding the information you’re looking for, you can contact someone at the FDA for help. It will probably take a few days or so for them to get back to you, seeing as they are a woefully understaffed agency, but they are quite helpful.

  158. Mike Yadon

    since you pro-vaxxers are so confident in your miracle jabs, why don’t we use you and your families as the guinea pigs for a new study.

    All we need you to do is go to your doctor or pediatrician and fully innoculate yourselves based on the vaccine schedules. Let’s get you up to date. According to you folks, 10 shots in one day, no problem.

    And then we’ll see how it goes. Any volunteers?

  159. Todd W.

    @Mike Yadon

    Still not providing that evidence, hmm? I’ll keep waiting…

  160. Mike Yadon

    i did provide research. that comment is still awaiting for approval. imagine that.

  161. Todd W.

    @Mike Yadon

    Posts that are exceptionally long or contain hyperlinks, as well as those containing language inappropriate for, say, kids, automatically get caught up in the spam filter and Phil gets notified. He is usually pretty good about getting to them in a timely manner; posts usually get approved no more than a couple hours later, and quite often before that time. Once it’s approved, give us another post just to draw attention to the fact that it’s up.

  162. Todd W.

    @Mike Yadon

    Actually, I think your post is up, now. The one linking to Merck’s studies? When I get a chance, I’ll take a look at those links.

  163. Dawn comments:

    “First of all, I couldn’t help but notice the HUGE Walgreens advertisement in the top left corner of this page. What do you take us anti-vaxers for? Idiots?”

    Is that a rhetorical question?

    Prometheus

  164. Sylvia

    No, I don’t agree the studies showed that vaccines don’t cause autism. Most of the studies said stuff like “a causal relationship could not be proven”, and other such language. None of them reasured me at all.

    SafeMinds.org has a lot of the studies in quesiton on their website. Other professionals have voiced concerned on how many of these studies were carried out, not just parents. So yeah, there a lot of people not at all convinced.

    There are many reasons for the decrease in disease, and the decrease in the death rate from disease. Hygiene ofcourse, and better nutrition and better access to health care are others. Most people in the US no longer live in filthy, cramped quarters and work 18 hour days in factories or farms. They have access to food and medicine. I find it very disingenuous that the pro-vaxxers want to take all the credit. And as I said before, vaccinating newborns for a sexualy transmitted disease shows how far things have gotten. Talk about selling ice cubes to Eskimos. When millions of parents think they have to give their hours old baby a vaccine for a disease that they have a miniscule chance of contracting, that is when you know that there is a large amount of salesmanship involved in the vaccine program. How much is marketing, and how much is science? It is a very blury line at best in other pharmaceutical sales, but somehow vaccines are special? The same company that lies about adverse outcomes during clinical trials for their pain pill are supposed to be completely trustworthy about their new block-buster vaccine?

  165. Speaking of vaccines and their life-saving MYTHS, please visit this highly documented graph showing the true cause of Polio.

    http://www.wellwithin1.com/pol_all.htm

    Who knows? Maybe it was just some good artistry.

  166. Mark Hansen

    Lucien, how much DDT did the ancient Egyptians use?

  167. Todd W.

    @Sylvia

    How much is marketing, and how much is science?

    Good questions for those arguing against vaccines, as well. (e.g., Wakefield, lawyers, etc.) But, those questions are neither here nor there. We could go back and forth on that forever.

    After taking a look at SafeMinds.org, I notice that they have quite a lot of misinformation regarding thimerosal. They say that the amount of mercury in vaccines exceeds EPA guidelines. This is false. The EPA does not have guidelines on ethylmercury exposure. The web site does not differentiate between ethylmercury (the compound in thimerosal) and methylmercury (the compound found in most environmental contamination, e.g. fish), leading to further misunderstanding. They also have no citations for any of the information there. The only link under “Sources” is to a list of vaccines containing thimerosal, and that is from Jan. 2004.

    I have not had a chance to review the rest of their site, but if this is the level of scholarship that they present, then they are woefully disappointing and should definitely not be used as a credible source of information on this issue. I haven’t been able to access the PDF files they have (computer’s acting wiggy), but a glance at the titles of some of them suggest that they looked at the effects on plated cultures, and not at effects in a person. Unfortunately, that doesn’t tell me much and I cannot offer a reasoned opinion or evaluation on it.

  168. Todd W.

    @Sylvia

    Most of the studies said stuff like “a causal relationship could not be proven”

    I guess I should have phrased my comment differently. The best that a scientific study can do is just what you quoted as saying. When that happens in enough different studies, it is reasonable to reach the conclusion that vaccines do not cause autism. However, because science is always open to new data, and because there is always a possibility, however vanishingly small, studies cannot say absolutely “vaccines do not cause autism”.

    To illustrate what I mean, it’s like asking you to prove that there is not an intangible, invisible pink elephant in my garage. Just as you are unable to prove that there is not an IIPE in my garage, so too can science never “prove” that vaccines do not cause autism, but it can say it is incredibly unlikely, which is what these studies have done.

  169. The anti-vaccination preachers make a fortune off of this fraud.

    Children die.

    If you have children, how can you justify taking this ridiculous risk of endangering your children by avoiding vaccines? There is no evidence to demonstrate a connection between vaccines and autism, not because of a cover-up, but because there is no connection.

    There is no evidence to demonstrate a connection between many other things that used to be considered causes of disease. Science has made it clear that humors do not cause disease, bad air does not cause malaria, cold weather does not cause a cold, . . . . There are many other correlations between events that have long ago been shown not to cause the diseases they were associated with.

    Yet, parents continue to ignore science and recklessly endanger their children by avoiding, or delaying, vaccination. Vaccines, as with any medicine, are not without risk. The risk from vaccines is about 1,000 times less than the risk of not vaccinating. Endangering children makes no sense. Not vaccinating makes no sense.

    I can understand that Wakefield and others are in it for the money. Some people are just unconscionable killers. But how many children have to die before parents protect their children with vaccines?

  170. Todd W.

    @Mike Yadon

    the bottom line is that you are still injecting aluminum and mercury into infants in quantities that are vastly superior to the limits set by the fda itself.

    I looked for quite a while on the FDA site and could find no regulations setting a limit for the amount of aluminum in a vaccine. Could you please provide a source/link to this information?

    From a 1952 study on aluminum by Merck:
    http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/hydro/al.htm

    4 ppm of aluminum in human blood can cause it to colagulate.

    Much of what is “cited” suggests that adverse reactions to aluminum are due to allergies. This suggests that a simple skin test could show whether the recipient is allergic, and, if so, whether they should avoid receiving those vaccines that use aluminum compounds.

    Also, the 4 ppm comment has no citation. What is the method of administration? Is it 4 ppm injected directly into the blood? Or is it 4 ppm making it into the bloodstream after it passes through the body’s filtration system? That tidbit of information is essentially meaningless in this discussion without further explanation.

    Your evidence isn’t particularly convincing. So, again, please show that the substances you quoted are a) present in the final form of the vaccine, b) toxic in the amounts in the final form of the vaccine, and c) that the vaccines, when administered according to their labeled indications, have resulted in adverse reactions. I would also request that you provide evidence that the risks of any such adverse reactions are higher than the benefits derived from the vaccine by both the individual and the public that comes in contact with the individual.

    You also say that “Big Pharma” won’t be getting any of your money. I assume that also includes “Big Alt-Med”…you know, the ones selling alternative “medicines” for all kinds of stuff, from common colds to cancer.

  171. Sylvia

    The slander keeps rolling in. To insinuate that Dr. Wakefield is a unconscionable killer? How nutty is this thread getting? Dr. Wakefield at no time said not to vaccinate, but he did suggest the combo shot may cause problems for a subset of children and that this should be looked into. He suggested giving the MMR components seperately while the combo shot was researched further. And for that he has been crusified. But his treatment did wonders for the vaccine lobby, for any other doctor who may consider voicing concern on any vaccine safety issue only needs to picture Dr. Wakefield, and they soon think of better things to do with their time.

    A doctor that is so pro vaccine that he only suggested switching to seperated shots instead of the combo while the combo product gets more research, is now slandered to this extent is a sad commentary on how science really works. To the pro-vax crowd, any question of vaccine safety has to be squashed. This approach is not winning the confidence of parents.

  172. Peter B

    Mike Yadon said: “There is .5mg of aluminum in the vaccine” and “4 ppm of aluminum in human blood can cause it to colagulate.”

    There is about 5 litres of blood in an adult human, so I’d guess about 1 litre in a child of about 12 kilograms. 0.5 mg mixed into 1 litre represents 0.5 ppm. That’s a lot lower than 4 ppm.

  173. Todd W.

    @Sylvia

    Dr. Wakefield at no time said not to vaccinate, but he did suggest the combo shot may cause problems for a subset of children and that this should be looked into.

    True, Wakefield did not say “do not vaccinate”. He said that there was, not “may be”, a problem with the combo MMR. He faked his data and made the claim that the combo MMR causes autism. When he published his results, there was an immediate decline in the rate of MMR vaccination in the U.K., and a corresponding increase in the rate of measles infection.

    Also, it would be silly of him to say “don’t vaccinate”, because he had patents in the works for alternatives to the combo vaccine. The success of those patents was dependent on his study results coming out positive for his claim.

    And for that he has been crusified.

    No, he was ripped apart for his conflict of interest violations, his ethics violations and for faking his data.

    for any other doctor who may consider voicing concern on any vaccine safety issue only needs to picture Dr. Wakefield, and they soon think of better things to do with their time.

    If they have valid scientific evidence, then they have nothing to fear. Their claims may be scrutinized a bit more closely, since Wakefield’s scam, but if the science is sound, they will be listened to.

    Your description of Wakefield does not match up with the reality. If you have evidence that the allegations are false, please present it!

  174. Todd W.

    @Peter B

    Thanks for those numbers. We must also take into account that vaccines are not injected straight into the bloodstream, but that they are administered either intramuscularly or subcutaneously. Because of this, the body acts on it before it hits the bloodstream, so some of that aluminum is eliminated even before it gets into the blood.

  175. Peter B

    Sylvia said of Dr Wakefield: “He suggested giving the MMR components seperately while the combo shot was researched further. And for that he has been crusified.”

    My understanding is that he’s been crucified for: 1) not revealling that he had a conflict of interest in that the results of his study favoured a vaccine he had a patent for, 2) changing the symptoms of some of the children in his study to favour his conclusions, and 3) not revealling he was being paid a large amount of money for his research at the behest of a group challenging the MMR vaccine in court (Information from Wikipedia).

  176. To insinuate that Dr. Wakefield is a unconscionable killer?

    He scared parents about dangers, that do not exist.

    He engaged in fraud. Fraud that leads to the deaths of children, because the parents of these children trusted this fraud.

    Where is there evidence of a conscience in this killer?

  177. Chris

    From ScienceBasedMedicine, http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=430

    http://www.dsf.health.state.pa.us/health/cwp/view.asp?A=171&Q=252640

    In the last six months, the PADOH has received reports of Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib) invasive disease in four unvaccinated or incompletely vaccinated children less than five years of age in southeastern Pennsylvania. Isolates from three additional cases of Haemophilus influenzae invasive disease, also in unvaccinated children less than five years old from southeastern Pennsylvania, have not yet been serotyped. Three of these seven children died. Clinicians are strongly encouraged to ensure that children have received the full primary series of Hib vaccinations. ,

    That must be “good” news for the pro-infectious disease bunch.

    (if it works, the bolding was added by me, since this will go into moderation and I will not be able to see it before it is posted)

    Also on the more recent Wakefield stuff: the MMR that has been used in the UK since the early 1990s is the same that has been used in the USA since 1971. It has never used thimerosal, which would know if you clicked on this new link: http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/Jenny_McCarthy_Body_Count/Home.html

  178. admiral76

    If these diseases were so deadly, we would not be here as a species. The Black Plague did not kill off Europeans (which the bacteria is still around…but we’re not dyeing from it…hmm?) If you want to inject yourself with formaldehyde, go right ahead, drink the paint thinner, but it is complete negligence and should be criminal to administer it to other living beings. Check the ingredients on vaccines before you go spouting off that they are saving the world. Heading off to the slaughter house like a herd of cows.

  179. Mark Hansen

    admiral76, how deadly does a disease need to be before we use a preventative measure? 5% mortality? 10%? 25%? Not dying from the plague is easy if it is treated in time with antibiotics – something which Europeans in the Middle Ages didn’t have. So not so mysterious if you take , oh, let me see, how long did it take me, 10 seconds worth of typing, Google 0.18 seconds searching and 30 seconds worth of reading, say, less than a minute?

    Formaldehyde does go in some vaccines at an early stage but is diluted during manufacture. I could type the page verbatim but I’ll link to it instead. Summary: The amount that is in vaccines is less than your own body produces. http://www.chop.edu/consumer/jsp/division/generic.jsp?id=75809

  180. Mark Hansen

    Further to my previous post, the bubonic plague information comes from the CDC.

  181. admiral76,

    Your comment is not surprising. You are so opposed to vaccines, that you think the Black Plague is better than vaccines.

    Most medicines contain preservatives, especially medicines used in austere environments. The preservatives are there to prevent the vaccine, or other medicine, from making the person sick. The preservative extends the expiration date from maybe being a few hours after removed from a refrigerator to weeks or months. Formaldehyde is used to kill the virus the vaccine is made from.

    The risk from these preservatives is tiny. The vaccines protect children from illnesses that are much greater risks to children. As more and more children are not vaccinated, the risk grows for the unvaccinated children. This is why there are children being killed by these diseases.

    Heading off to the slaughter house like a herd of cows.

    Since the children dying are the unvaccinated children, the ones heading to the slaughter house seem to be the children listening to your advice. You are a true humanitarian, Killer admiral76. (Yes, that is sarcasm.)

    Not vaccinating our children is bad medicine.

    Not vaccinating kills.

    The Andrew Wakefield and Jenny McCarthy and other opponents of vaccines are killing children by convincing parents to avoid vaccines.

  182. I’ve got your “scientic proof” right here. Open your stupid phone book and start calling every neurologist to see if they are testing children to see if they have a Mitochondrial Disorder. The CDC maintains that this disorder affects 20% of the Autism community. Where exactly do they get these figures if nobody is looking for these children and reporting the real statistics? I had to fire my neurologist and hire another and demand that he test for this in my own son! Otherwise, it never would have been done. FYI – the tens, if not hundreds of thousands of children following the same protocol that Jenny McCarthy is using (to recover from Autism) would possibly lead to a false negative during Mitochondrial Disease testing. Meaning – the protocol is working to help support Mitochondria and the children are recovering from their so-called “Autism-like symptoms” aka Autism.

    Genetic markers are often associated with Mitochondrial Disorders. Two common ones would be Fragile X or Rett Syndrome. My son does not have any genetic markers – meaning his condition developed after birth. Vaccines and prescription drugs kill your Mitochondria and these babies DO NOT grow back.

    Only during criminal trials are we supposed to give “benefit of the doubt” that the accused is not guily until proven otherwise. Vaccines do not fall under this category. Vaccines can and do cause Autism aka “Mitochondrial Disorders”.

  183. Rogue Medic states: Most medicines contain preservatives, especially medicines used in austere environments. The preservatives are there to prevent the vaccine, or other medicine, from making the person sick. The preservative extends the expiration date from maybe being a few hours after removed from a refrigerator to weeks or months. Formaldehyde is used to kill the virus the vaccine is made from.

    The risk from these preservatives is tiny. The vaccines protect children from illnesses that are much greater risks to children. As more and more children are not vaccinated, the risk grows for the unvaccinated children. This is why there are children being killed by these diseases”.

    Yeah? Where’s your proof of your claims. Vaccines injure and vaccines kill. Just take a look at the pre-licensure trials.

    Also, children with Mitochondrial Disorders CANNOT handle even minute amounts of “preservatives”. So, please – don’t lump all children into the category of being able to tolerate the shots. As of right now, nobody is looking for these susceptible children so spare us of your BS Rogue Medic. Let us not forget about the nasty, and life-threatening contaminants often found in vaccines too – bacteria, parasites, and cancer-causing viruses like the SV-40 virus.

    Lastly, Rogue Medic where is your proof that these children who died from so-called vaccine preventable diseases were 100% unvaccinated. I have been researching vaccines for over a year now and have found that every death has been a situation where the child had an autoimmune condition and could NOT be vaccinated anyways OR the child received other vaccines. This leads me to firmly believe that vaccines weaken your immune system. It is going to boil down to survival of the fittest. The unvaccinated will be left standing.

  184. Julian

    Oh, Christ. It’s Dawn. Apparently spouting her nonsense at a blog site for doctors isn’t enough. She’s come here to make an even bigger nuisance of herself.

  185. Todd W.

    @Dawn

    I’m sorry to hear about your son, and I understand, to a degree, what it is like for you. That said, your suggestion to call neurologists is not scientific evidence that vaccines cause autism. Your personal experience is not scientific evidence. Show us some well-controlled studies that establish the link you claim.

    Also, Mitochondrial Disorders are not the same as Autism. While some of the symptoms may be similar, the underlying condition is different, in the clinical sense.

    Genetic markers are often associated with Mitochondrial Disorders. Two common ones would be Fragile X or Rett Syndrome.

    So, Mitochondrial Disorders are not always linked to genetic markers? Also, from your comment, it appears that there are markers other than the two you listed. I did a quick look at a few sites to find out more about the disease and found that there are several different types, mostly inherited, as well as the causes (mutations/defects in the DNA of the mitochondria as it replicates).

    I found the following NIH paper quite informative: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/bookshelf/br.fcgi?book=gene&part=mt-overview (add the www to the beginning and paste it in your address bar).

    After perusing quite a number of different web sites on the disease, not a single one mentioned anything about it being caused by vaccines. One site briefly mentioned that medicines could cause a toxic reaction, but did not single out any particular one. If you have links to studies showing that vaccines have been observed, under controlled conditions, to cause damage to mitochondria, please provide them.

    In the end, though, what I learned is that Mitochondrial Disorders/Diseases are not Autism.

    Only during criminal trials are we supposed to give “benefit of the doubt” that the accused is not guily until proven otherwise.

    Actually, in all court cases, criminal or otherwise, “innocent until proven guilty” is the rule. The level of “proof” varies. In criminal cases, it is “beyond a reasonable doubt”. In any other case, including those before the Vaccine Court, the level is “more likely than not”, i.e., just a hair over 50%. Neither of those is even close to the rigor demanded by science. So, you still have yet to back up your claim that vaccines cause autism, as well as your claim that autism and mitochondrial disorder are the same thing.

  186. Todd W.

    @Dawn

    Lastly, Rogue Medic where is your proof that these children who died from so-called vaccine preventable diseases were 100% unvaccinated.

    Well, there was the case of the unvaccinated child in Minnesota who died from hemophilus influenze type b. The CDC has a report on it here: cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm58e0123a1.htm (add www to the beginning). From that report, “Three patients had received no vaccinations because of parent or guardian deferral or refusal.” One of those three died.

    In Germany, in 2006, there was a measles outbreak. 86% of the patients were unvaccinated. Two children had the complication of measles-induced encephalitis and died. This is from a World Health Organization report (who.int/bulletin/volumes/87/2/07-050187.pdf). While the report does not specificy if the two children had been immunized or not, it is likely they had not been (or at least had not completed the series), given the high percentage of unvaccinated patients. However, this outbreak would not have occurred had immunization rates been where they should be (around 90%).

    Before the introduction of measles vaccine, hundreds of people died annually, as well.

    So, your “belief” that vaccines weakens the immune system is quite simply wrong. Your research is also lacking. I found the above information after a very short search online.

  187. Sylvia

    The allegations by Brian Deer about Dr. Wakefield are just that. Wakefield’s scam? He listened to parents who said that their childs life exploded into physical and emotional pain after the MMR. That their typicaly developing child got sick and never got better. That they had multiple explosive diarrhea episodes everyday of their lives and lost most of their cognitive abilities after this shot. He listened to them and actually provided medical care for their bowel disease instead of turning them away and calling it “just part of their autism” like most other medical practitioners. That is quite a scam alright. Most doctors are too afraid of what it would do to their careers to help these kids. It is disgraceful how they have turned their backs of these children.

    If anyone really wants to learn about the allegations against Dr. Wakefield, go to: http://www.cryshame.org/

  188. Todd W.

    @Sylvia

    Did Wakefield receive payment for his study from a lawyer representing parents who claimed that their children developed autism after receiving the MMR? Yes.

    Did Wakefield have pending patents on alternatives to the combo MMR? Yes.

    Did Wakefield fail to disclose those financial interests before publishing his results? Yes.

    Was his sample size too small for good statistical power to support his claimed results? Yes.

    Were the samples he reported in his Lancet paper contaminated? Yes.

    Did the majority of co-authors on the paper retract their names from it? Yes.

    Has Wakefield admitted any wrong regarding any part of that paper? No.

    The site you linked to is filled with apologetics. Even Wakefield’s own response is filled with evidence of, at best, incompetence. Furthermore, if Deer’s allegations are false, then Wakefield should have an open and shut libel case under the British court system. Has he initiated such a case in any of the time that Deer’s allegations have been coming out (this is many years, now)? No, he hasn’t.

    Any claims of good things he may have done, if true, do not mitigate any of his fraud (or, to be charitable, incompetence as a researcher). He still acted in an unethical manner and his actions did contribute to an increase in measles infections in the U.K. due to fears of the MMR vaccine raised by his grossly flawed paper.

  189. Sorry Todd, but there is no proof that you supplied that these children were indeed 100% unvaccinated. Same old story from the “scientific community”….no proof, only assumptions. I said it before and I’ll say it again, I have NEVER heard of a completely unvaccinated child dying from any disease in the U.S. They were always suffering from an autoimmune disorder (most likely caused by prescription drugs in the first place) and they couldn’t be vaccinated anyways. Let me simplify it further – a child dies of the measles. The CDC claims the child is unvaccinated. This usually means that the child received every other vaccine under the sun (Hep B, IPV, DTaP, Flu, Rotavirus, Chickenpox, etc. etc. etc. OR the child did not complete the set of boosters for the measles vaccine just yet, but did get at least 1 shot. Again, NONE of these child who died were “healthy”.

    Please Todd, tell us all what the difference between Autism and Mitochondrial Disorders are. You have not a clue what this disorder even is because you just got through telling us that you had to look it up!

    Now, as far as the 3 recent test cases in the National Vaccine Injury Court of Claims – they all based their cases on mercury causing Autism. I never said that mercury causes Autism. I never said that vaccines cause Autism. Vaccines are however the trigger for many susceptible children….more than the CDC, FDA, AMA, WHO, AAP, and NIH care to admit. Hell, they aren’t even looking at who is susceptible. These idiots are just telling us that everything is just peachy. Let us not forget about the 2 well-known Autism cases that DID WIN in this same court – Hannah Poling and Baily Banks. What has this same court paid out to injured vaccine victims by the way? Is it still in the billions or has it made it to the trillions of dollars yet? I don’t know. I lost count.

    Parents have totally lost faith in “Modern Medicine”. I know you doctors think “boo-hoo”. You have nobody to blame but yourselves for lying to us parents since vaccines first came out.

    One last thing Todd. Please don’t feel sorry for me or my son. Just last summer my little one was walking on his toes, spinning, flapping his hands, would take off from you, wouldn’t respond to his name, grunt, and so much more. As of last week, the neurologist told us that he “just doesn’t see Autism anymore”. Jenny McCarthy is no quack. I’ve been following the same protocol AND my son IS RECOVERING. Vaccines can injure and vaccines can kill. More people than you can imagine. I’m just one of the lucky ones that listened to my gut instead of my doctor and stopped vaccinating in the nick of time. The chance of my 2 year old recovering completely is very high because of his age.

  190. TheBlackCat

    @ Dawn: So you are saying that nobody died of these diseases prior to the invention of vaccines?

  191. Sylvia

    “Did the majority of co-authors on the paper retract their names from it?”
    If they liked having a regular paycheck and not getting the same treatment as Dr. Wakefield, yeah, they did.
    The huge smear job of Dr. Wakefield demonstrates the venom in which is directed towards someone who dares question any vaccines safety. That doesn’t make me have more confidence in the vaccine program, and it doesn’t answer the question of what is going on with the kids that regressed into autism and bowel disease after the MMR. But that is besides the point now. The important thing is to slander him untill anyone in the medical community who dares question vaccine safety is completely intimidated.

    Incompetence? So many children are suffering from bowel disease – severe pain, diarrhea, and 99% of the doctors do nothing. I cannot even begin to imagine what some of these kids go through. And what do these other doctors have to say about it? Coincidence? Just part of the autism? That it is a behavioral issue? (like a kid can make his bowels move 10 times a day by just giving it some good thought?!) Talk about incompetence!

  192. Todd W.

    @Dawn

    The CDC claims the child is unvaccinated. This usually means that the child received every other vaccine under the sun (Hep B, IPV, DTaP, Flu, Rotavirus, Chickenpox, etc. etc. etc. OR the child did not complete the set of boosters for the measles vaccine just yet, but did get at least 1 shot. Again, NONE of these child who died were “healthy”.

    To quote, again, from the MN case, “Three patients had received no vaccinations because of parent or guardian deferral or refusal.” While it is true that the report does not say that the three had received zero vaccinations ever, it is reasonable to conclude that they have not, based on the reason given by the parents.

    You have no evidence to conclude that the child who died received any other vaccinations, nor do you have any evidence that the child suffered from some form of immunodeficiency.

    Please Todd, tell us all what the difference between Autism and Mitochondrial Disorders are. You have not a clue what this disorder even is because you just got through telling us that you had to look it up!

    I’ll let that article I linked to described what Mitochondrial disease (MD) is. Autism is a spectrum disorder for which the cause is currently unknown, though recent research points toward a genetic component, as well as possibly being a result of high testosterone levels in utero. Mitochondrial disease, from what I’ve been able to find, is equally common in both males and females, though only females can pass it along to their children. Autism, however, affects almost twice as many boys as girls. So, yes, I didn’t know too much about MD until I did some research. Now, my question for you is this: what are your qualifications to make the determination that they are the same thing? Are you a physician specializing in genetic or neurological diseases? What research have you found that states that they are the same thing? Please provide citations.

    ow, as far as the 3 recent test cases in the National Vaccine Injury Court of Claims – they all based their cases on mercury causing Autism. I never said that mercury causes Autism.

    I was not commenting on the three test cases. My comment was merely the level of “proof” required for cases before the various courts, including the NVIC.

    Hannah Poling and Bail[e]y Banks

    In neither case did the court rule that the vaccines caused autism in the children. Poling’s case involved mitochondrial disorder. Banks’ case involved acute disseminated encephalomyelitis (ADEM), which is also not autism. These cases represent the system working as it should, to compensate people who have been injured due to a vaccine. What these cases do not represent is that vaccines cause autism. Further, getting back to my statements on level of proof required, a ruling that vaccines do cause autism should be relatively easy to show, as only a “more likely than not” level is required. As well, such a ruling wouldn’t not constitute evidence, in the scientific sense, that vaccines cause autism, due to the lack of necessary controls or rigor.

    Regarding Jenny McCarthy, no, she isn’t a quack. She’s not claiming to be a doctor while she doles out misinformation. However, she is still issuing forth the idea that vaccines cause autism, which, quite simply, has no evidence to support it. As to her son or yours, I can’t comment on their recovery, since I don’t know the initial diagnoses, whether those diagnoses were, in fact, correct, nor do I know anything else about their situations, other than what has been described. If you son is doing better, that’s awesome! I’ve seen kids with a wide range of autism severity show significant improvement through the use of applied behavior analysis. They still have autism, but their symptoms are way down.

    Vaccines can injure and vaccines can kill.

    Yep, that’s true. No one denies that. They can injure and, in rare cases, can kill. However, those risks of injury or death are significantly lower than the risk of the same from the diseases being prevented. If you claim that getting the disease naturally carries lower risks, please provide the scientific evidence that backs up your claim.

    I have already shown that in areas where vaccination rates are low, infection rates are incredibly high. Hospitalization due to infection is common. Where vaccination rates are high, infection rates are low.

    Oh, and one parting thought. In every case that you have found where someone has died of an infectious disease, did the reports expressly state that those who died received one or more other vaccinations or were immunocompromised, or are you making assumptions? Note, every case must explicitly state that the individual who died fell into one of those two categories. Wouldn’t want to have a double standard, now, would we?

  193. Todd W.

    @Sylvia

    I noticed that you ignored the rest of the ethical issues I raised.

    Incompetence?

    What follows that question has no connection to Wakefield’s study, but is rather a general statement and rant against the quality of medical care provided by others. Sort of a “So many other doctors are incompetent that it makes Wakefield’s incompetence okay” kind of argument.

    Wakefield, if he is not guilty of fraud in the Lancet paper, certainly displayed incompetence in his research. Failure to disclose conflicts of interest. Failure to place proper controls on subject selection. Failure to follow Declaration of Helsinki guidelines on ethical human subject research. Failure to control for contamination of the test samples. Failure to include data that contradicted his claims. That’s a lot of stuff that he got wrong. If he were a competent researcher, he would not have made so many errors. Now, if you argue that he is a competent researcher, then the only other option is that he lied and was dishonest. So, which is it?

    I’m curious what your response is to the other issues I raised.

  194. Todd W.

    @Dawn

    Actually, a few questions for you. You say that vaccines weaken the immune system. What is the mechanism by which vaccines accomplish this? Do the diseases, if contracted naturally, weaken the immune system? If so, by what mechanism? If not, why not? Please provide scientific sources for your answers.

  195. Todd states: “Actually, a few questions for you. You say that vaccines weaken the immune system. What is the mechanism by which vaccines accomplish this? Do the diseases, if contracted naturally, weaken the immune system? If so, by what mechanism? If not, why not? Please provide scientific sources for your answers”.

    I guess you have to read the package insert for clarification on that one Todd. I believe damaging your kidneys is just one side effect out of many. I trust the maker of the product over some doctor that went to a pro-vaccine convention sponsored by the CDC. The CDC doesn’t make vaccines.

  196. Sylvia

    Dr. Wakefield has already answered those questions. I am not him. But the witch hunt thing is bizarre. Disagree with his methods? Disagree with his conclusions? If the subject was about any drug except a vaccine, the slander wouldn’t be at the fever pitch that it is today, 11 years after he released his paper.

    Does the triple virus MMR vaccine cause bowel disease and autism in a subset of suseptible children? How many doctors what to be in charge of that study after the Wakefield crusifiction? And that sucks, because we need to find out what happened to these kids so other kids can be spared similar outcomes. Telling parents that it is all a coincidence hasn’t been working out so well. And what has been the alternative explanation for kids who become ill after taking the MMR? I mean besides the whole “coincidence”, “God’s will”, “it’s a mystery” “it’s genetic” bunch of b.s. we usually hear.

  197. Oh, so now I post a lengthy response and it is held and not posted? I see how this works.

  198. Todd W.

    @Dawn

    Really long posts are automatically picked up by the spam filter. It has nothing to do with the content of the post. I’ve had really long posts of my own held up for moderation. Be patient and don’t jump to conclusions.

  199. Todd W.

    @Sylvia

    If Wakefield’s study did not have the issues that it has, and the methodology and conclusions were sound, he would not have suffered the current brouhaha. If it is, indeed, slander/libel, then he has legal recourse, and the UK libel laws pretty heavily favor the person claiming they were libeled.

    Does the triple virus MMR vaccine cause bowel disease and autism in a subset of suseptible children?

    Wakefield’s own study did not show this. The contamination of his samples means that his conclusions, even without any of the other problems, are not true.

    I mean besides the whole “coincidence”, “God’s will”, “it’s a mystery” “it’s genetic” bunch of b.s. we usually hear.

    Unfortunately, where autism and the MMR are concerned, “coincidence” is the proper response. The average timing of onset of autism happens to coincide with the generally time period that the MMR is administered. However, there is no causal link between the two. Correlation, yes, but that does not equal causation. Numerous studies have shown this. I won’t reiterate my comments on how faulty human perception is. You can scroll back up and reread that, lest we start going in circles.

    Anyone who says it is “God’s will” is not basing their conclusion on evidence. Those who say “it’s a mystery” may well be stating their personal understanding…it is a mystery to them. The “it’s genetic” is a bit closer to the mark, as recent research suggests. In some cases, people do suffer injury, though not autism, caused by a vaccine jab, but that rate is pretty low, overall (i.e., # of people vaccinated vs. # of people suffering injury).

    Again, I’ll ask both yourself and Dawn for links to studies that show, conclusively, cases in which a vaccine (MMR or otherwise) caused autism. And I mean autism, not some other disorder that people in the anti-vaccine community like to call autism (like ADEM or mitochondrial disease).

  200. Mike Yadon

    I would be willing to contract any disease, for which we currently vaccinate against, to prove that vaccines are bunk. I’d also be willing to contract hiv, to prove that aids is bunk.

    And to the fella that was doing the math on the 4ppm causing coagulation thing. Do the math on 6 or 7 shots (which is not uncommon in one visit) and I think you’ll start to see numbers exceeding 4ppm. Not to mention the other toxins in the shots that are causing coagulation (via increased white blood cell release) as well. You add all that up and you are primed for ischemic strokes. For those children that do make it through with no visible signs of excessive immune response, don’t believe for a second that damage was not done.

  201. Todd W.

    @Mike Yadon

    White blood cells do not cause coagulation. Platelets do. Further, not all shots given in a single visit contain agents that have been shown to cause coagulation. You are also not taking into account that these substances are eliminated from the body over a relatively short timeframe, so even if you take all of the vaccines a child receives, you cannot simply add up the numbers as if the shots were given all at once.

    I would be willing to contract any disease, for which we currently vaccinate against, to prove that vaccines are bunk. I’d also be willing to contract hiv, to prove that aids is bunk.

    Wow! You’re brave. You get on that and let us know your results. Be sure to arrange for someone else to let us know, too, in the event that you don’t pull through.

  202. Mike Yadon

    I’ll get on that as soon as you line up and get current on your jabs.

    And TRUST ME, after reading Janine Roberts book – FEAR OF THE INVISBLE, I am not afraid of a single disease we vaccinate against. I take a little measles with my toast and coffee each morning.

  203. Todd W.

    @Mike Yadon

    I am actually up to date on all my vaccinations. Oh, and I’m quite healthy. I hardly get colds, and they usually are not long-lasting or very bad.

  204. Todd W.

    @Mike Yadon

    I take a little measles with my toast and coffee each morning.

    That so? Where do you get the measles? And have you contracted measles before? If so, then you’re likely immune to further exposures.

  205. Mike Yadon

    Do you really think i was being serious, Todd?

    The point I am trying to make as that these are all boogeyman diseases. Nothing more than bacterial infections and/or excessive immume response due to toxins and foreign proteins. There is not a single retrovirus that kills cells. Duesberg established that and Gallo seconded it by admitting that Duesberg was the be all and end all when it came to retrovirus research.

  206. Todd W.

    @Mike Yadon

    Measles – virus, not bacteria
    Varicella – virus, not bacteria
    Polio – virus, not bacteria
    Hemophilus influenza type b – virus, not bacteria
    Influenze – virus, not bacteria
    HPV – virus, not bacteria
    HIV – virus, not bacteria
    Tetanus – bacteria (well, that’s one you got right)

    If I am wrong on any of those, please link to studies showing that they are bacteria, not viruses.

    As to foreign proteins, yes. That is how viruses do their work.

    As to killing cells, true, most viruses don’t do that. If they did, they wouldn’t last long at all in the host, as they would have no means of replicating. What they generally do is reprogram the cell. There may be some that kill the cell, but I can’t think of any off-hand.

    But more to the point, if they are bogeyman diseases, then why not take you at your word that you are willing to be shot up with the virus? You should have nothing to fear, and it shouldn’t cause any harm, right? Now, finding someone actually willing to infect you may be a bit difficult, but I’m sure with the right kind of influence you may be able to find someone.

  207. Mike Yadon

    Measles – made up disease
    Varicella – made up disease
    Polio – made up disease
    Hemophilus influenza type b – made up disease
    Influenze – made up disease
    HPV – made up disease
    HIV – made up disease

    And since I would never agree to being injected with mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde, or smashed up monkey kidneys, I guess my immune system won’t be stimulated to result in an overexcessive immune response which could be further labled as a made up disease.

  208. Mike Yadon

    I’m not a dumb dumb, Todd. I may have been only researching these things for 6-9 months now, in my spare time, but all one has to do is research the history of things such as polio/hiv and the whole house of cards falls flat…

    it’s all made up in the name of greed to thin the herd and make the fat cats at the top much fatter.

    I can only hope that someday you’ll look in the mirror and ask yourself, “what have i become”…

  209. Todd W.

    @Mike Yadon

    Measles – made up disease
    Varicella – made up disease
    Polio – made up disease
    Hemophilus influenza type b – made up disease
    Influenze – made up disease
    HPV – made up disease
    HIV – made up disease

    Citations, please. The medical literature begs to differ with you.

    And since I would never agree to being injected with mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde, or smashed up monkey kidneys, I guess my immune system won’t be stimulated to result in an overexcessive immune response which could be further labled as a made up disease.

    No need to get any of those items injected into you. Just find someone that works with the viruses in question and ask them to expose you to them. If the reactions are simply due to an “overexcessive immune response” caused by vaccination, then you should have no significant reaction, right? So, go to! Find someone with measles and ask them to cough on you. Find someone with HIV and put some of their blood on an open wound of yours. Then, come on back and let us know your results.

  210. Todd W.

    @Mike Yadon

    it’s all made up in the name of greed to thin the herd and make the fat cats at the top much fatter.

    Still waiting for some scientific data to support these claims of yours. So far, all you’ve done is act as a marketing agent for a book. Let’s see the well-controlled research! Citations! Journal articles in JAMA!

  211. Mike Yadon

    what i am saying is the additives in the vaccines are doing the damage and not the viruses. viruses are harmless. Necessary in intracellular communication and nothing more.

  212. Todd W.

    @Mike Yadon

    viruses are harmless. Necessary in intracellular communication and nothing more.

    Yeah, I understand that that is what you are saying. I’m asking for the scientific evidence that supports that conclusion. And, if the viruses are harmless, then if you do indeed go out and get infected by the virus, then you should suffer zero harmful effects. I’m just taking you up on your offer to go out and get yourself infected, then report back to us what the results are.

  213. Mike Yadon

    Provaxxers and their trouble with truth.

  214. Sylvia

    Todd, I know you keep asking for studies that conclusively proves that the MMR causes autism. You know they don’t exist. Just like there aren’t any that conclusively prove they don’t cause autism. We have been through all of this. But ofcourse many people, including myself, just aren’t buying the coincidence arguement. There can be multiple factors involved, but they are external causes or triggers. And the obvious suspect in many cases (not all cases) are vaccinations, especially when parents report regression after their use. It is very disheartening when parents see some much effort put into trying to disprove a link instead of following all possible leads.

  215. Yahoo! Go Mikey!!

    Todd says the medical literature begs to differ! HAAAA! What medical literature? The pharmaceutical funded medical literature? No conflict of interest there.

    I highly doubt that Todd is even fully vaccinated. If he is, then he is probably on the usual cocktail of medication – erection problem meds, anti-anxiety meds, blood pressure meds, cholesterol meds, etc. etc. etc. Yet, people like him claim to be “healthy”. Yeah, I know that one all TOO WELL. I cannot tell you how many parents tell me that their fully vaccinated child is completely normal and healthy. Yet, you dig a little deeper and find their child is on anti-psychotic meds, depression meds, anxiety meds, AND antibiotics every month! Quite sad.

  216. Oh, boy! Now we can have ‘anti-vinyl flooring’ added to the list:
    Link to Scientific American article

    J/P=?

  217. Yes Sylvia, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Thousands upon thousands of parents report REGRESSION AFTER VACCINES. Did you know that this is a common symptom of a MITOCHONDRIAL DISORDER? Yep, it sure is. People with Mitochondrial Disorders cannot handle chemicals….even in minute amounts. Now, with pediatricians not knowing what this disorder is and neurologists not knowing what it is and how to diagnosis it – I think it is safe to say that we have a HUGE problem on our hands. The answer is simple – don’t vaccinate and stay away from toxic pharmaceutical drugs aka prescriptions.

  218. Todd W.

    @Sylvia

    You know they don’t exist.

    If there is no scientific evidence that vaccines cause autism, then is it not premature to conclude, with certainty, that vaccines can cause autism?

    But ofcourse many people, including myself, just aren’t buying the coincidence arguement.

    Because you do not buy the explanation, you argue from incredulity, rather than based on any valid evidence. You have anecdotes, but as I’ve already noted, anecdotes are not evidence and are subject to a variety of flaws and biases.

    It is very disheartening when parents see some much effort put into trying to disprove a link instead of following all possible leads.

    When the spectre was first raised that vaccines cause autism, researchers went out to verify this. When they found no causal link, they reported that. Then other researchers did work to verify or overturn those initial studies, and more researchers, and more. And all of the well-controlled, rigorous studies came back with the same conclusion: “We cannot find a causal relationship” and “There is no observable difference in autism rates between populations receiving vaccines and populations not receiving vaccines”.

    But none of this research is enough. Those who do not believe that vaccines are not to blame keep calling for more research, and more research? How much is enough? When can we turn out efforts to finding the true cause(s) of autism? How much more time, how many more resources must be expended on this goose chase?

  219. TheBlackCat

    There is not a single retrovirus that kills cells.

    Even if that was true, it would only eliminate AIDS. The rest are not retroviruses.

  220. Todd W.

    @Mike Yadon

    Provaxxers and their trouble with truth.

    If you aren’t going to provide any science, then I’m done with you. It’s like talking to a brick wall.

  221. Todd W.

    @Dawn

    I highly doubt that Todd is even fully vaccinated. If he is, then he is probably on the usual cocktail of medication – erection problem meds, anti-anxiety meds, blood pressure meds, cholesterol meds, etc. etc. etc. Yet, people like him claim to be “healthy”. Yeah, I know that one all TOO WELL. I cannot tell you how many parents tell me that their fully vaccinated child is completely normal and healthy. Yet, you dig a little deeper and find their child is on anti-psychotic meds, depression meds, anxiety meds, AND antibiotics every month! Quite sad.

    Wow. Make assumptions much? I am fully up to date on my vaccinations. And, I am not taking any meds. No ED meds, no anti-anxiety meds, no blood pressure meds, no cholesterol meds, nothing.

    Stop trying to deflect the calls for evidence with such personal attacks. Just give us the evidence. Sheesh!

  222. Sylvia

    I agree Dawn that mitochondrial disorders in autism is a promising area to look at. Many kids on the spectrum, mine included, do incredibly well on the Mito Cocktail of supplements. If Pharma decides they can pantent the Mito Cocktail, then the world will be informed of the high prevalence of this disorder. You can almost see it now….commercials with people dancing around, happy, smiling, with that voice saying “ask your doctor if MitoFlex is right for you!” Untill that happens, Mito disorders will remain “rare”.

  223. Eric James

    The “Mito Cocktail” of supplements? Which enterprising quack came up with that one?

  224. Sylvia

    I can’t give credit to any alternative practioner for that one. That is a mainstream specialty. It consists of the amino acid Carnitine, B complex, and several antioxidants such as vitamin C and E, and sometimes alpha lipoic acid. Those of us in the autism community have known about this for years, as it helps with many of the issues our kids face; fatigue, low tone, etc.

  225. Bizarro

    Hey, Yadon! How youse leave Htrae! Us miss you.

  226. Mark Hansen

    Dawn, it’s even sadder to see people like you make assumptions about the state of people’s health. Just for your records though, my daughter is fully immunised and is not on anti-psychotics, anti-depression, or anti-anxiety tablets. Hasn’t been on anti-biotics at all this year or even since about Sept. last year and has never been on anti-biotics every other month. So clearly you don’t know people TOO WELL at all.
    One thing has got my curiosity going though. You don’t trust the CDC because they don’t make vaccines but you trust “Big Pharma™” because they do make vaccines. How does that work?

  227. P

    I’ve now taken care of a few kids hospitalized with pertussis and one with Hib meningitis…I’ll tell them Mike says their disease doesn’t exist…Oh, and they weren’t immunized, so “it was the vaccine” doesn’t apply…as to the idea that mitochondrial disease being a cofactor…these are kids who are typically ill before too many mos of age the idea would be that this would be prevalent in autism then, yes? My own kids with mitochondrial disease don’t really display the characteristics of autism, they are more globally affected.These wouldn’t be children who appeared normal until they received vaccines. I’ve about 5 in my practice now and not one presented this way.

  228. Mark Hansen, I don’t trust the CDC or Big Pharma. However, I do know that the drug manufacturers are required by law to “disclose” possible adverse reactions on their inserts. Just because the CDC and mainstream doctors don’t “believe” that these adverse reactions can take place, doesn’t mean the don’t. Did I clarify that enough for you?

  229. @Todd W: I said it earlier, but it bears repeating: You have the patience of a saint.

    @Mike Yadon: Made up diseases??? Where do you get this stuff?? If they’re so made up, I’m sure you won’t mind being put into an isolation chamber into which some smallpox, measles or polio virus are released. Get on that and let me know how that works out for you. But please, stay behind the sealed plastic wall. I’d like to live for a few more years.

  230. Greg in Austin

    Sylvia said,

    “Todd, I know you keep asking for studies that conclusively proves that the MMR causes autism. You know they don’t exist. Just like there aren’t any that conclusively prove they don’t cause autism. We have been through all of this. But ofcourse many people, including myself, just aren’t buying the coincidence arguement.

    You see Todd, there’s your problem. You are trying to argue with someone who refuses to change her belief in the face of evidence.

    Sylvia, you admit that no study has proven that MMR vaccines cause autism, but you refuse to believe it. Over 25 studies have been done looking for a direct connection, but you choose to ignore them. The technical term for that is called “denial.”

    8)

  231. Buzz Parsec

    Hmm… Wakefield has committed fraud. If he gained financially from this, it is a felony. If someone commits a felony, and someone dies as a result even if that is not the intention of the person commiting the felony and the person committing the felony did not actually kill the victim, it is a crime called “felony murder” in many states (and I believe Texas is one of them), and the punishment is death by lethal injection. Wouldn’t that be ironic? IANAL, but if I were him, I’d be high-tailing it for the border.

  232. So, Buzz Parsec, what exactly should the punishment be for healthcare practioners who violate their own code of ethics…”First, do NO HARM?” Should we give them lethal injection for the people they’ve killed and injured with vaccines? Or should we just lock them up and throw away the key?

  233. Johannes9126

    “Wakefield sentenced to death by lethal injection for felony murder” – this would be the case if there was anything like Karma or some just deity.

    I always love listening to the drivel of the anti-vaxxer crowd. When I am depressed it makes me happy to know that there are actually people this stupid and/or deluded out there.

  234. @Dawn

    I do know that the drug manufacturers are required by law to “disclose” possible adverse reactions on their inserts.

    If an adverse event is reported in connection with their product, manufacturers are required to include those in the list of possible adverse reactions, regardless of whether there is a causal connection or not. In other words, if people start lying and saying that they are hallucinating seeing purple unicorns after using a medicine, then hallucinations will be included on the next revision of the labeling/package inserts. Now, it is in the company’s interests to investigate those reports for veracity and have some sound evidence to back it up. The majority of reactions that are listed in the packaging were discovered during placebo-controlled or active-controlled trials, so there is evidence to back up the majority of reactions.

    The CDC and NIH, on the other hand, like to see, y’know, science before they say what something will do. If the evidence isn’t in, yet, then they won’t make any official statement on possible reactions. If the evidence isn’t there, then they state that the information that is available is not conclusive and more studies need to be done. If your position is that they state that vaccines are 100% safe and pose absolutely no risk at all, please point me to that link so I can see for myself and, if necessary, complain to them that their information is inaccurate.

    On a final note, I’m still waiting for your evidence that vaccines weaken the immune system in recipients in general. You stated, but offered no studies, that they can damage the liver. While this may be the case in rare instances, this is hardly a widespread thing. If liver damage occurred in even 2-3% of recipients, at levels that a) the body could not recover from or b) at levels that posed immediate, serious risk to the individual, then the FDA would remove it from market. So, evidence, with citations, that the immune response is reduced, that this occurs in the majority of individuals, rather than in rare cases, and that manufacturers, FDA and other government agencies are complicit in knowingly contributing to the injury and death of a significant percentage of the population.

    Also, since you seem to be in agreement with Mike Yadon’s claim that the diseases are made up, please provide evidence of that, as well.

    And as an added bonus, please show that the risk posed by vaccines is greater than the risks posed by the very real diseases that are being prevented. (Hint, comparative risks can be found already on the CDC web site, but they’re lying about it, aren’t they?)

  235. @P

    Thank you for sharing your experiences with mitochondrial disease. I really appreciate people who have direct experience with the various topics brought up commenting on their experiences and knowledge.

  236. Todd W.

    @drksky

    I entertain the vain hope that I can actually get through to someone. If not necessarily the people I’m talking with, then perhaps lurkers who are reading the exchanges. Now, if they would actually provide some science that backs up their claims, I might actually change my views, depending on the quality of the science, of course. But, they always seem to throw the conversation off on a tangent when I ask for evidence. I wonder why…

  237. Peter B

    Mike Yadon said: “what i am saying is the additives in the vaccines are doing the damage and not the viruses. viruses are harmless. Necessary in intracellular communication and nothing more.”

    Pardon? So what killed or maimed people in the days before vaccines? I mean, are you seriously saying that the native population of America wasn’t decimated by viruses like smallpox? Are you saying that polio wasn’t responsible for putting people in calipers or iron lungs?

  238. Peter B

    Mike Yadon said: “And to the fella that was doing the math on the 4ppm causing coagulation thing. Do the math on 6 or 7 shots (which is not uncommon in one visit) and I think you’ll start to see numbers exceeding 4ppm.”

    That was me. So what are the vaccines given, what amounts of aluminium do they contain, and at what age are they given?

  239. Todd W.

    @Peter B

    My prediction is that he will answer with one of the following:

    a) Those events never happened, since the viruses are harmless.
    b) Poor hygiene and cleanliness were responsible. They introduced harmful toxins into the food and water supply.

  240. Mike Yadon

    i did respond, with references to the cdc’s own studies on things like polio such as…

    87% of polio cases between 1973-1983 were caused by the vaccine itself.

    there was a 700% increase in incidences of polio after mass vaccination started in ottawa, canada.

    but for some reason, i think my posts are being blocked now…

    so you guys have fun perpetuating violence against children with your fake diseases and chemical filled jabs.

  241. Todd W.

    @Mike Yadon

    We’re not asking you for disease cases after the development of vaccines. What we’re asking is, before vaccines, what was it that killed hundreds to thousands of people annually? If it was not smallpox that wiped out a large portion of native peoples of North and South America?

  242. Mike Yadon
  243. Todd W.

    @Mike Yadon

    DDT, which was first developed in the late 1800s decimated the populations of 15th-16th century North and South America? So DDT can travel through time? That’s amazing!

    On a side note to the pro-disease crowd, if you include hyperlinks in your post, the spam filter sends it into moderation. If you would rather it not get held up and go all “Conspiracy!” on us, try removing the http and www from the address. Also, try substituting (dot) for the periods. You could also just put the link in the “Website” field when you are posting.

  244. Todd W.

    I’ve been thinking. If Mike Yadon happened to be correct, that would overturn the Germ Theory of Disease, something that, if true, would garner a Nobel Prize.

  245. Mike Yadon

    i’ve provide proof from the cdc that the vaccines increase disease rates. i’ve also provided proof from the fda that aluminum causes blood sludging in concentrations as small as 4ppm.

    i don’t know what else to say. you guys wouldn’t know the truth if it punched you in the face.

    i’m done with this nonsense. I have much better things to do in my spare time other than argue with big pharma trolls. have a nice life, losers.

  246. Todd W.

    @Mike Yadon

    i’ve provide proof from the cdc that the vaccines increase disease rates.

    No, you’ve provided statements without links to the information (or article titles, in the absence of links). For example, what were the titles of the CDC studies from which you got your numbers?

    i’ve also provided proof from the fda that aluminum causes blood sludging in concentrations as small as 4ppm.

    Okay, but that number is meaningless unless put into context. Dihydrogen monoxide can be fatal if breathed in, even in small quantities. Does that mean that anything that contains dihydrogen monoxide is dangerous? So, what are the amounts of exposure from vaccines in a single visit to the doctor? What is the half-life of the aluminum salts used in the vaccines? See, in order to make your point, you need to show that in a single visit, the amount of aluminum received exceeds 4ppm, or that the aluminum stays in the body long enough to build up across the visits in which vaccinations are administered. However, I have this sneaking suspicion that the half-life for aluminum in the blood is rather far under the months to years between vaccinations.

    I have much better things to do in my spare time other than argue with big pharma trolls.

    Where? I have no connections to “Big Pharma”. Rather, you are the one acting like a troll. When asked for citations and evidence, you give none. You redirect away from questions asked of you. And you insult, as demonstrated by “Have a nice life, losers.”

    To recap Mike Yadon’s posts:

    Claim: Infectious diseases (e.g., measles, polio, etc.) don’t really exist and are actually caused by vaccines.
    Proof presented: None
    Reaction when called on it: Repeat the claim or state some numbers without providing any information on how to find the original source of those numbers. Also uses insults.

    Claim: DDT killed native American populations in North and South America in the 15th-16th centuries, even though DDT wasn’t actually invented until the late 1800s.
    Proof presented: None
    Reaction when called on it: Change the subject

    Claim: The bacteria and viruses that are claimed to cause diseases are harmless.
    Proof presented: None
    Reaction when called on it: Volunteer to be infected with the viruses or bacteria, including HIV. Then, when called on that, says he wasn’t being serious and that he’s not stupid, but the viruses really are harmless.

    So, not a single citation there. No science. No evidence. Just claims, lies, misinformation and insults.

  247. Bizarro

    Dat why us wonder why Yadon left Htrae. Now Dawn heer!!! Youse guys happy in Htrae ruler cellar! Why go to sane world? Better on Htrae where code is “Us do opposite of all Earthly things! Us hate beauty! Us love ugliness! Is big crime to make anything perfect on Bizarro World!”.

    Dawn and Mike com bak!

  248. Mark Hansen

    Amazing how viruses can be harmless but when asked to provide proof positive by self-exposure, MUD believers (Made Up Diseases) suddenly lack the courage of their own convictions.

  249. Dawn,

    Here is a study, from 2007 from the Journal of the American Medical Association, on the death rates prior to vaccines and after. Historical Comparisons of Morbidity and Mortality for Vaccine-Preventable Diseases in the United States.

    Where are the deaths from the vaccines?

    You preach not vaccinating, but will you pay for the funerals of the children who die due to lack of vaccination, because their parents took your deadly advice?

    Vaccines save lives.

    People who discourage parents from vaccinating children kill.

    Dawn, how many children do you have on your conscience?

    There is a site that lists the recent deaths and illnesses due to people like Dawn and Jenny Killer McCarthy. JennyMcCarthyBodyCount.com

    People who jump to the conclusion that because one thing follows another are falling for a common error of logic. They believe that correlation equals causation.

    I wore my lucky hat and my team won.

    The hat is not the reason.

    My child got vaccinated and started showing signs of autism.

    The vaccine is not the reason. The research shows that autism does not happen any more frequently in vaccinated children than in unvaccinated children.

    There is no valid research that shows a connection between vaccination and autism.

    If there were, the vaccine manufacturers would not take the risk of manufacturing something for so little profit and so much risk. They are not angels, but they aren’t that stupid. If there were valid research showing a connection, there would be a growing consensus in the scientific community about the dangers of vaccines. This has not happened, because the danger is in not vaccinating.

    Does the scientific community hate children?

    No. They can see through the fraud of Wakefield and other killer quacks.

    Science is full of rebels. If there were truth to these claims, some would be investigating. The so called scientists blaming vaccines for autism have one thing in common. They all make a lot of money selling books, giving speeches, selling quack remedies. These are not the rebels of science. These are not the ones recognizing a problem before the rest of the scientific community.

    These are snake oil salesmen. If they get you to kill your child, they do not care. They are making money off of their scare tactics.

    Do not listen to these superstitions. The vaccine did it, is just a superstition. In earlier times, we might hear that the autism is because of a witch. Superstition is bad medicine. Superstition kills. Do not help Dawn to kill children.

  250. Mitochondrial Disease is more prevalent than we are led to believe. So, until these children are screened properly before and after vaccinations are given, I really don’t buy the theory that “vaccines don’t cause autism”.

    “The Spectrum of Mitochondrial Disease” by Robert K Naviaux, M.D., PH.D. and Angie Longenecker, R.N. is definitely worth reading.

    Also,

    “The Management of Mitochondrial Disease” by Mark Korson, M.D. is also worth reading.

    Apparently, much of the treatment recommended to assist the Mitochondria is the same treatment recommended by DAN doctors (what Jenny McCarthy is talking about). Amazingly, tens of thousands of children in the U.S. are recovering. How? They are being treated as if they have an underlying Mitochondrial Disorder.

    Now, where on earth is the CDC coming up with the figure that 20% of Autistics are suffering from this disorder if most neurologists know very little about it? Hmmmm…..the CDC is at it again – pulling figures out of thin air. I wonder if they are able to do the same with the salary?

  251. By the way, just last summer my Autistic son was toe walking, flapping his hands, spinning in circles, lining things up, not responding to his name, grunting, not able to point, etc. and NOW…….he is just delayed in expressive language (he speaks with a completely closed mouth – many words though)….I thought that the scientific community said that recovery from Autism is not possible? Well, THAT’S A LIE. Sure, just like VACCINES DON’T CAUSE AUTISM?? Another LIE.

  252. Julian

    “I thought that the scientific community said that recovery from Autism is not possible? ”

    Once again you demonstrate just how out of touch you are with science and the fact that you never read any of the responses made to your posts here or on Respectful Insolence. You spout the same none sense time and time again. Doesn’t intellectual honesty mean anything to you?

  253. Dawn,

    Any research to support your claim that bad mitochondria + a vaccine = autism?

  254. I’m not a dumb dumb, Todd. I may have been only researching these things for 6-9 months now, in my spare time, but all one has to do is research the history of things such as polio/hiv and the whole house of cards falls flat…

    Polio is an excellent example of the success of vaccines in protecting people from disease.

    About 35,000 cases per year in the US prior to the Salk vaccine. Now there are no cases in the US.

    35,000 cases without the vaccine vs. 0 cases with the vaccine.

    Such a difficult choice. I should ask someone who has been only researching these things for 6-9 months now, in my spare time. I’m sure that he will come to a reasonable conclusion.

    RM – Which would you choose?

    MY – You can’t fool me, those aren’t real diseases. It’s a government conspiracy.

    RM – I think we all have learned a lesson from this humanitarian. We need to stop vaccinating against polio, because it does not exist. If only we had consulted him earlier. Doh!

  255. Todd W.

    @Dawn

    Now, where on earth is the CDC coming up with the figure that 20% of Autistics are suffering from this disorder [mitochondrial disorder] if most neurologists know very little about it?

    Dunno. Where did you get those numbers? You did not provide a citation for your source so that others could verify it. You also need to cite your source that “most neurologists” know very little about it.

    Oh, and another thing. Once again, mitochondrial disorder is not autism. Some people with autism have mitochondrial disorder, yes. But you know what? Some people without autism also have mitochondrial disorder. If they were the same thing, then there would not be a single person with mitochondrial disorder that did not have autism.

    Again, you are long on accusations and claims, but short on citations and evidence.

  256. QUASAR

    @ zar

    Don’t be a crapbrain!

  257. Jacquie Meade

    @ QUASAR,

    NE SOYEZ PAS UN IMBÉCILE!

  258. QUASAR

    @ Jacquie Meade

    I wasn’t talking to you, jerko!

  259. Vaccines are what seperates a modern health care system and an archaeic one.

NEW ON DISCOVER
OPEN
CITIZEN SCIENCE
ADVERTISEMENT

Discover's Newsletter

Sign up to get the latest science news delivered weekly right to your inbox!

ADVERTISEMENT

See More

ADVERTISEMENT
Collapse bottom bar
+

Login to your Account

X
E-mail address:
Password:
Remember me
Forgot your password?
No problem. Click here to have it e-mailed to you.

Not Registered Yet?

Register now for FREE. Registration only takes a few minutes to complete. Register now »