Comments on: Shuttle safety dance http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/ I am an astronomer, writer, and skeptic. I likes reality the way it is, and I aims to keep it that way. My real name is Phil Plait, and I run the Bad Astronomy blog. Tue, 14 Feb 2012 15:46:45 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: don http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-174720 don Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:57:16 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/#comment-174720 @ Peter B Your thoughts are correct. They only need the backup shuttle for Hubble missions when getting to the ISS is impossible with the current design limitations (not enough fuel for orbit changes necessary to get to ISS). Since there won't be any more Hubble missions after this one, there won't be another need for 2 shuttles to be launch ready at the same time. (At least with the current planning - who knows if they will extend the life of the shuttle while waiting for Constellation/Aries to become available. They did extend the life of the shuttle by 1 extra mission. Maybe more will be added since politically it's not a popular idea that the US won't have human launch capability for several years, but there's also pressure to terminate the shuttle program as quickly as possible. That's a whole debate unto itself.) Missions to ISS could theoretically extend their stay for up to several additional weeks (longer with Soyuz/Progress resupply missions) - hopefully enough time for another shuttle to be prepared and sent for rescue. So at the moment, there isn't a need for a backup shuttle to be launch ready at the same time. @ Peter B
Your thoughts are correct. They only need the backup shuttle for Hubble missions when getting to the ISS is impossible with the current design limitations (not enough fuel for orbit changes necessary to get to ISS). Since there won’t be any more Hubble missions after this one, there won’t be another need for 2 shuttles to be launch ready at the same time. (At least with the current planning – who knows if they will extend the life of the shuttle while waiting for Constellation/Aries to become available. They did extend the life of the shuttle by 1 extra mission. Maybe more will be added since politically it’s not a popular idea that the US won’t have human launch capability for several years, but there’s also pressure to terminate the shuttle program as quickly as possible. That’s a whole debate unto itself.)

Missions to ISS could theoretically extend their stay for up to several additional weeks (longer with Soyuz/Progress resupply missions) – hopefully enough time for another shuttle to be prepared and sent for rescue. So at the moment, there isn’t a need for a backup shuttle to be launch ready at the same time.

]]> By: Peter B http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-174716 Peter B Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:41:49 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/#comment-174716 Christopher A. Eirich asked: "Can somebody please elaborate further as to why we’ll never see 2 shuttles positioned for launch at the same time ever again? Phil wasn’t clear about this in his article, and I’d like to know..." I assume it's because there won't be any more Hubble service missions performed by the Shuttles before they're retired. All other Shuttle missions will be to the ISS, and if something goes wrong on such a mission, the Shuttle can simply remain with the ISS, so having a second Shuttle on standby isn't necessary. Christopher A. Eirich asked: “Can somebody please elaborate further as to why we’ll never see 2 shuttles positioned for launch at the same time ever again? Phil wasn’t clear about this in his article, and I’d like to know…”

I assume it’s because there won’t be any more Hubble service missions performed by the Shuttles before they’re retired. All other Shuttle missions will be to the ISS, and if something goes wrong on such a mission, the Shuttle can simply remain with the ISS, so having a second Shuttle on standby isn’t necessary.

]]> By: Christopher A. Eirich http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-174537 Christopher A. Eirich Wed, 15 Apr 2009 22:16:42 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/#comment-174537 Can somebody please elaborate further as to why we'll never see 2 shuttles positioned for launch at the same time ever again? Phil wasn't clear about this in his article, and I'd like to know.... Can somebody please elaborate further as to why we’ll never see 2 shuttles positioned for launch at the same time ever again? Phil wasn’t clear about this in his article, and I’d like to know….

]]> By: Johnny Vector http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-174375 Johnny Vector Wed, 15 Apr 2009 12:47:16 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/#comment-174375 Gopher65, you do not recall correctly. The old external tanks are all gone; new ones have been manufactured in the last year or two at the Michoud facility in Louisiana. They are filled just before launch because loading and unloading fuel is not without risk, so you want to make sure as many things are working as possible before you fuel. Darrin, you may have Safety Dance in your head, but I have YMCA: http://www.kevland.com/blog/2008/09/ayyy-ceee-esss-arrr/ Gopher65, you do not recall correctly. The old external tanks are all gone; new ones have been manufactured in the last year or two at the Michoud facility in Louisiana. They are filled just before launch because loading and unloading fuel is not without risk, so you want to make sure as many things are working as possible before you fuel.

Darrin, you may have Safety Dance in your head, but I have YMCA:
http://www.kevland.com/blog/2008/09/ayyy-ceee-esss-arrr/

]]> By: Alex http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-174324 Alex Wed, 15 Apr 2009 01:38:38 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/#comment-174324 JB: Bringing back a failed commsat simply isn't economic. Firstly the costs of refurbishing the bird are a high percentage of building a new one from scratch. Unlike your car, which is designed to be repaired in it's lifetime, the bird is designed to be launched once. So you have to work out how to safely discharge the fuel, disassemble, diagnose & repair damage, rebuild and then refuel. Then at the end of the process you've got a bird which cannot be considered new, and probably will have to be sold at a discount to a less well off customer who can't afford the full price. Secondly, you have to consider the costs of bringing the bird back. At the very minimum you've got to launch a very heavy vehicle to enclose the bird. That means a lot of fuel. It's also only been shown to be possible when the bird was originally launched by the shuttle, it's still controllable (to bring it back into an orbit where it can be grabbed) and by using highly trained humans using specially designed tools which are unique for each design of bird, and at high risks to themselves. The economically sensible route is to launch satellites using cheap expendable rockets such as Ariane, Delta or Titan, and if they fail, then shrug, learn why it failed if we can, and rebuild them. JB: Bringing back a failed commsat simply isn’t economic.

Firstly the costs of refurbishing the bird are a high percentage of building a new one from scratch. Unlike your car, which is designed to be repaired in it’s lifetime, the bird is designed to be launched once. So you have to work out how to safely discharge the fuel, disassemble, diagnose & repair damage, rebuild and then refuel. Then at the end of the process you’ve got a bird which cannot be considered new, and probably will have to be sold at a discount to a less well off customer who can’t afford the full price.

Secondly, you have to consider the costs of bringing the bird back. At the very minimum you’ve got to launch a very heavy vehicle to enclose the bird. That means a lot of fuel. It’s also only been shown to be possible when the bird was originally launched by the shuttle, it’s still controllable (to bring it back into an orbit where it can be grabbed) and by using highly trained humans using specially designed tools which are unique for each design of bird, and at high risks to themselves.

The economically sensible route is to launch satellites using cheap expendable rockets such as Ariane, Delta or Titan, and if they fail, then shrug, learn why it failed if we can, and rebuild them.

]]> By: Paul M. http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-174319 Paul M. Wed, 15 Apr 2009 01:01:22 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/#comment-174319 Good work with the lyrics there Darrin... I take my hat off to you! Good work with the lyrics there Darrin… I take my hat off to you!

]]> By: Steve A http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-174304 Steve A Tue, 14 Apr 2009 22:39:52 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/#comment-174304 @ Juergen, tony tony tony If this was happening a few years ago, they probably wouldn't need to move it. However, pad 39B is now undergoing modifications so it can become a launch pad for the Constellation program. Right now, work is being done so the Ares I-X test rocket can launch from there this summer. Already, they have erected giant lightning towers to protect the rocket. I'm not sure how far along it is, but the plan is also to add an abort system so when astronauts are in the craft, they escape quickly if there is a problem BTW, the Constellation architecture should be able to service the Hubble if necessary. In this case, service probably means intentionally deorbiting it when the time comes in order to plan where exactly it will land on Earth. IIRC, one of the tasks on the Hubble repair mission is to add attachments so Orion could grab it and place it in a planned orbit when the time come. I'm not sure if this is still happening. @ Juergen, tony tony tony

If this was happening a few years ago, they probably wouldn’t need to move it. However, pad 39B is now undergoing modifications so it can become a launch pad for the Constellation program. Right now, work is being done so the Ares I-X test rocket can launch from there this summer. Already, they have erected giant lightning towers to protect the rocket. I’m not sure how far along it is, but the plan is also to add an abort system so when astronauts are in the craft, they escape quickly if there is a problem

BTW, the Constellation architecture should be able to service the Hubble if necessary. In this case, service probably means intentionally deorbiting it when the time comes in order to plan where exactly it will land on Earth. IIRC, one of the tasks on the Hubble repair mission is to add attachments so Orion could grab it and place it in a planned orbit when the time come. I’m not sure if this is still happening.

]]> By: JB of Brisbane http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-174301 JB of Brisbane Tue, 14 Apr 2009 22:05:53 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/#comment-174301 As I see it, the only real advantage to a "shuttle" type reusable spacecraft is in providing a platform for servicing satellite objects such as Hubble, or if necessary, bringing them back to earth as with a number of commsats that did not achieve geostationary orbit on launch in the eighties. Perhaps if the shuttle concept is ever revisited, the Russian Energia/Buran model may be more practical. Even so, it would have been cool, if pointless and expensive, to see two little dots of light go over Brisbane in formation one of these days and say, "There go Atlantis and Endeavour". As I see it, the only real advantage to a “shuttle” type reusable spacecraft is in providing a platform for servicing satellite objects such as Hubble, or if necessary, bringing them back to earth as with a number of commsats that did not achieve geostationary orbit on launch in the eighties. Perhaps if the shuttle concept is ever revisited, the Russian Energia/Buran model may be more practical.
Even so, it would have been cool, if pointless and expensive, to see two little dots of light go over Brisbane in formation one of these days and say, “There go Atlantis and Endeavour”.

]]> By: PG http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-174288 PG Tue, 14 Apr 2009 19:37:53 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/#comment-174288 @tony tony tony: Many shuttle replacements have been proposed over the years. The politics involved with keeping the shuttle and ISS running has out-paced the desire for progress on this issue for 30 years. @tony tony tony: Many shuttle replacements have been proposed over the years. The politics involved with keeping the shuttle and ISS running has out-paced the desire for progress on this issue for 30 years.

]]> By: tony tony tony http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-174285 tony tony tony Tue, 14 Apr 2009 19:14:36 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/#comment-174285 Pretty cool. But has it been answered why they don't launch from there? Is it a camera issue? Also, how long does it take to go from one to the other on the crawler. Looks to be a few miles. I understand the companies are gone, but doesn't NASA have the blueprints? Couldn't some of the components have been improved upon over 30 years? The new Ares is cool, but it can't service the Hubble, can it? Or drop off or pick up an LDEF type experiment. I know the shuttle underperformed, but couldn't we have come up with something similar/better in the meantime? Pretty cool. But has it been answered why they don’t launch from there? Is it a camera issue? Also, how long does it take to go from one to the other on the crawler. Looks to be a few miles.

I understand the companies are gone, but doesn’t NASA have the blueprints? Couldn’t some of the components have been improved upon over 30 years?

The new Ares is cool, but it can’t service the Hubble, can it? Or drop off or pick up an LDEF type experiment.

I know the shuttle underperformed, but couldn’t we have come up with something similar/better in the meantime?

]]> By: Charles Boyer http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-174262 Charles Boyer Tue, 14 Apr 2009 17:38:23 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/#comment-174262 "One of my golfing buddies has a Taylormade R-7 driver that, when swung properly, will launch a golf ball like a rocket. Thrust is rather short lived in this case." Yet a 300 hundred yard flight with the correct azimuth and trajectory can bring such joy... Fellow R7 Owner “One of my golfing buddies has a Taylormade R-7 driver that, when swung properly, will launch a golf ball like a rocket. Thrust is rather short lived in this case.”

Yet a 300 hundred yard flight with the correct azimuth and trajectory can bring such joy…

Fellow R7 Owner

]]> By: TomJoe http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-174258 TomJoe Tue, 14 Apr 2009 17:17:29 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/#comment-174258 I've really got to get down to Florida to see a shuttle launch before it's all over. I’ve really got to get down to Florida to see a shuttle launch before it’s all over.

]]> By: John Paradox http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-174257 John Paradox Tue, 14 Apr 2009 17:17:07 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/#comment-174257 Why do I keep visualizing Richard Crenna, James Franciscus, and <a HREF="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064639/" rel="nofollow"> Gene Hackman</A> as the first crew? ;) J/P=? Why do I keep visualizing Richard Crenna, James Franciscus, and Gene Hackman as the first crew?

;)

J/P=?

]]> By: mk http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-174241 mk Tue, 14 Apr 2009 16:27:55 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/#comment-174241 Well... at least they're doing something <I>useful</I> this time! Well… at least they’re doing something useful this time!

]]> By: BP http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-174238 BP Tue, 14 Apr 2009 16:20:55 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/#comment-174238 Juergen: They don't want to launch from B if they don't have to because B is being transitioned for the Ares I-X launch. A shuttle launch would further delay plans to get Ares off the ground soon. Juergen: They don’t want to launch from B if they don’t have to because B is being transitioned for the Ares I-X launch. A shuttle launch would further delay plans to get Ares off the ground soon.

]]> By: Michael L http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-174232 Michael L Tue, 14 Apr 2009 16:08:17 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/#comment-174232 @Mchl... No, afraid not, and I would not want to take that ride, anyway! @Mchl…
No, afraid not, and I would not want to take that ride, anyway!

]]> By: Torbjörn Larsson, OM http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-174224 Torbjörn Larsson, OM Tue, 14 Apr 2009 15:59:37 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/#comment-174224 So, "safety dance", is that some sort of jig? So, “safety dance”, is that some sort of jig?

]]> By: actuator http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-174219 actuator Tue, 14 Apr 2009 15:41:36 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/#comment-174219 Mchl, Unfortunately I don't know the mass, COR etc of the R-7 or Dave's club head speed at impact. He hits it about 240 when he does it right. Mchl,
Unfortunately I don’t know the mass, COR etc of the R-7 or Dave’s club head speed at impact. He hits it about 240 when he does it right.

]]> By: Mchl http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-174216 Mchl Tue, 14 Apr 2009 15:34:04 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/#comment-174216 @actuator: How large specific impulse does it have? :P @actuator: How large specific impulse does it have? :P

]]> By: actuator http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-174214 actuator Tue, 14 Apr 2009 15:31:16 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/#comment-174214 Mchl, One of my golfing buddies has a Taylormade R-7 driver that, when swung properly, will launch a golf ball like a rocket. Thrust is rather short lived in this case. Mchl,
One of my golfing buddies has a Taylormade R-7 driver that, when swung properly, will launch a golf ball like a rocket. Thrust is rather short lived in this case.

]]> By: Gary Ansorge http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-174209 Gary Ansorge Tue, 14 Apr 2009 15:21:49 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/#comment-174209 The following link/comment has absolutely nothing to do with this post, but it comes from my Defend Science site and I think it's important for Phil to look at,,, http://www.ncselegacy.org/resources/news/2007/TX/270_barbara_forrest_on_chris_comer_12_5_2007.asp GAry 7 The following link/comment has absolutely nothing to do with this post, but it comes from my Defend Science site and I think it’s important for Phil to look at,,,

http://www.ncselegacy.org/resources/news/2007/TX/270_barbara_forrest_on_chris_comer_12_5_2007.asp

GAry 7

]]> By: Mchl http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-174202 Mchl Tue, 14 Apr 2009 15:11:04 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/#comment-174202 @Michael L: These are not waiting for any crews to get into them I'm afraid :) @Michael L:
These are not waiting for any crews to get into them I’m afraid :)

]]> By: Michael L http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-174199 Michael L Tue, 14 Apr 2009 15:08:45 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/#comment-174199 @Mchl: I guess one could say that there are dozens of launch pads with rockets sitting on them around the world... only those rockets carry enough power to blow the world up several times over... :( Thanks for that headline, Phil... now I have that silly song dancing in my head! @Mutt: There have never been two Shuttles in orbit together. @Mchl:
I guess one could say that there are dozens of launch pads with rockets sitting on them around the world… only those rockets carry enough power to blow the world up several times over… :(

Thanks for that headline, Phil… now I have that silly song dancing in my head!

@Mutt:
There have never been two Shuttles in orbit together.

]]> By: The Mutt http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-174192 The Mutt Tue, 14 Apr 2009 14:44:15 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/#comment-174192 Have we ever had two shuttles in space at the same time? I will never forget the joy and awe I felt when I saw the pictures in Life Magazine from the two Gemini spacecraft in orbit together. For the first time, we got to see pictures of our spacecraft in space! I still have that magazine. Have we ever had two shuttles in space at the same time?

I will never forget the joy and awe I felt when I saw the pictures in Life Magazine from the two Gemini spacecraft in orbit together. For the first time, we got to see pictures of our spacecraft in space!

I still have that magazine.

]]> By: gopher65 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/comment-page-1/#comment-174190 gopher65 Tue, 14 Apr 2009 14:41:44 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/14/shuttle-safety-dance/#comment-174190 As an aside, that's what NASA gets for contracting out critical components to unstable corps. Technically using 3rd party contractors is "cheaper", but only for a given value of the word (prefixing it with "in the short term" helps. Corps are excellent at short term projects, and piss poor at long term projects). As an aside, that’s what NASA gets for contracting out critical components to unstable corps. Technically using 3rd party contractors is “cheaper”, but only for a given value of the word (prefixing it with “in the short term” helps. Corps are excellent at short term projects, and piss poor at long term projects).

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