Jim Carrey loves the pro-disease movement

By Phil Plait | April 23, 2009 2:00 pm
Jim Carrey maybe isn’t a medical doctor.

Living with Jenny McCarthy must have infected Jim Carrey’s brain, because yesterday he posted an astonishingly fallacious antivaccination propaganda piece for the Huffington Post screed.

Carrey is the boyfriend of Public Health Threat Jenny McCarthy and has been an antivaccination advocate for some time. He is a funny guy and a movie star, but I don’t think either of those things should give him a public voice wherein he can mislead people about vaccinations.

The article Carrey wrote has so much wrong in it that it almost qualifies as self-satirizing. His very first paragraph is a textbook example of spin. Basically, a few months ago a special court looked at three cases of potential damage due to vaccinations, and found no evidence of any connection. About this, Carrey says:

…a ruling against causation in three cases out of more than 5000 hardly proves that other children won’t be adversely affected by the MMR, let alone that all vaccines are safe. This is a huge leap of logic by anyone’s standards.

That last line comes dangerously close to an out-and-out lie on Carrey’s part, and it’s certainly dead wrong. The three cases that were presented to the special courts were chosen by the people presenting the cases themselves as the strongest of all their claims. And the courts did far more than simply find no link between between vaccines and autism; they called the antivax claims "speculative and unpersuasive." One of the special masters (the judge, essentially) in the cases also said that the parents of one child had "been misled by physicians who are guilty, in my view, of gross medical misjudgment."

So that "huge leap of logic" Carrey complains about is actually a carefully reasoned and literally judicious step.

His case gets worse from there, and in fact contains this whopper: "We have never argued that people shouldn’t be immunized for the most serious threats including measles and polio." I suppose that all depends on who he means by "we"; if it includes Jenny McCarthy and their autism organization, well then it’s not exactly the truth, as that is precisely and exactly what they been advocating.

I won’t go into anything more Carrey says; you can read the smackdowns at Skeptic Dad and Left Brain Right Brain [edited to add: and Opposing Views] to see many other things he says which are completely wrong. More will come, no doubt.

It bothers me greatly that people with no scientific training and who are indeed ignoring and distorting scientific results have such a loud voice in the media, especially when it comes to the health of our children.

I for one will never watch another Jim Carrey movie again, ever. I will make sure not a single dime of mine will go into his pocket, money that he will use to ultimately put the children of our nation and the world at risk of preventable diseases.

Vaccines don’t cause autism. But what Carrey and McCarthy are advocating will certainly cause more outbreaks of diseases like measles, Hib, pertussis, and mumps. The real health threat here is not vaccines, it’s the antivaccination movement.

CATEGORIZED UNDER: Antiscience, Debunking, Piece of mind

Comments (470)

  1. Todd W.

    Before making any comments on how evil vaccines are and how they cause autism, please read the following. I apologize for the links, but the mouthpieces of the pro-disease anti-vax movement spout so much nonsense and misinformation.

    MMR (info available from FDA, CDC, investigative reports by Brian Deer)
    * Some in the pro-disease anti-vax movement claim that the MMR has/had mercury in it. However, the MMR vaccine does not and never has had any mercury in it.
    * The basis of the “MMR vaccine causes autism” argument is a flawed study by Andrew Wakefield, who had several ethics breaches, including failure to disclose financial compensation from a lawyer representing families claiming MMR cause their children’s autism, failure to disclose financial interests in patents for MMR alternatives, failure to include data which contradicted his conclusions, use of contaminated samples to support his conclusions.
    * Independent studies trying to replicate Wakefield’s results have come up negative. To date, no well-controlled study has shown a causal link between vaccines and autism.

    Thimerosal (info available from both FDA and CDC)
    * Thimerosal is a preservative that is used in the manufacturing process of some vaccines and other medicines to prevent the growth of bacteria and fungi, which could otherwise cause illness or injury.
    * It metabolizes into ethylmercury, not methylmercury, a mistake commonly made by pro-disease anti-vaxers who claim that the amount of mercury that used to be in vaccine exceeded EPA exposure guidelines. Those guidelines were for methylmercury, a compound that has a half-life in the body of several weeks to months and is often found in fish or other environmental exposures. Ethylmercury, on the other hand, has a half-life of a few days to about a week, meaning that it is not in the body long enough for it to build up to toxic levels from vaccination to vaccination.
    * It was removed from the final product of nearly all vaccines around 2001/2002. This was a political move, due in large part to public pressure, rather than based on sound science. This was a recommendation rather than a regulatory requirement. A handful of studies that suggested problems with thimerosal, but which were inconclusive, prompted a “better safe than sorry” approach from the FDA while the issue was investigated by FDA, CDC and others. No follow-up studies have found any health risks beyond local hypersensitivity. (www (dot) fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm#act)
    * Some vaccines still use it during the manufacturing process, but remove it from the final product, leaving, at most, trace amounts. The influenza vaccine still uses thimerosal, though thimerosal-free versions are available.
    * Despite the removal of thimerosal from vaccines, resulting in exposure levels lower than anytime in the past, autism rates have not declined, suggesting that there is no connection between thimerosal and autism.
    * To date, no well-controlled study has shown a causal link between thimerosal and autism.

    Other Vaccine Additives
    * Some pro-disease anti-vaxers claim there is antifreeze in vaccines. This is false. Antifreeze is ethylene glycol. Vaccines use polyethylenes glycol. These are different substances, the latter of which is not toxic. More info can be found at insidevaccines.com/wordpress/2008/03/13/common-anti-vaccination-myths-and-misconceptions/
    * Vaccines contain formaldehyde. However, the chemical structure of the formaldehyde in vaccines is the same as that produced by our own bodies. It is used during the manufacturing process, but is diluted to remove it from the finished product, leaving only small or trace amounts. The total amount of formaldehyde in a finished product is far less than what is naturally found in the human body. (www (dot) chop.edu/consumer/jsp/division/generic.jsp?id=75809)
    * Vaccines contain aluminum in a salt form. Pro-disease anti-vaxers claim this is toxic, and some will cite that 4ppm will cause blood to coagulate. However, individuals are not exposed to such amounts of aluminum in a single vaccination visit. Blow are the vaccines containing aluminum, with the corresponding parts per million (ppm) for an infant (~251 mL of blood in the body) and an 80lb. child (~4000 mL of blood); note the two numbers for DTaP represent extreme ranges of aluminum content.:

    ppm (w/v) = (weight in grams of sample/volume of sample in mL) * 106
    Vaccine____________ppm in infant_____ppm in child_____age received (in months)
    DTaP (170mcg)________.677____________.043_________2, 4, 6, w/ final ~4-6 yrs.
    DTaP(625mcg)________2.490___________.156
    Hep A_______________.996____________.063__________12 w/ final ~6 mo. later
    Hep B_______________.996____________.063__________birth, 1 or 2, final at 6+
    HiB________________.896____________.056___________2, 4
    HPV________________.896____________.056__________11 or 12 yrs., then 2, 6 mo.
    Pediatrix____________3.386___________.213__________2, 4, 6 (in lieu of DTaP, IPV and Hep B)
    Pentacel_____________1.315___________.083_________2, 4, 6, 15-18 (in lieu of DTaP, IPV and HiB)
    Pneumococcus_________.498____________.031_________2, 4, 6, 12-15

    * Further, about 71% of the aluminum is excreted from the body after about 5 days or so.

    Polio
    * Pro-disease anti-vaxers claim that polio rates increased after the introduction of the polio vaccine, that OPV spread the disease, and that polio was on a decline before introduction of the vaccine. This is wrong.
    * Before the approval of the vaccine, paralytic polio struck 13,000-20,000 individuals every year in the U.S. The number of cases peaked at 21,000 in 1952, only three years before approval of the vaccine. By 1960, there were only 2,525 cases, and only 61 cases in 1965. (www (dot) cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/polio/dis-faqs.htm)
    * The oral polio vaccine (OPV) was nearly 100% effective in preventing polio, though it did have a very small risk of causing paralytic polio in the recipient. OPV-caused paralytic polio resulted in about 6-8 cases per year. However, when vaccination rates were low, OPV had the added benefit of contact immunity. In other words, the virus from the vaccine was present in the stool, resulting in about 25% of people who came in contact with the immunized person would also become immune. (www (dot) chop.edu/consumer/jsp/division/generic.jsp?id=75724)
    * With the eradication of wild type polio in the U.S., the OPV vaccine is no longer used, and the less effective inactivated polio vaccine (IPV) is used. This version does not cause paralytic polio. OPV has not been used in the U.S. since 2000. (www (dot) cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/polio/dis-faqs.htm)

    Vaccine Court and National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) (info available from the Autism Omnibus Proceedings – www (dot) uscfc.uscourts.gov/omnibus-autism-proceeding)
    * Pro-disease anti-vaxers claim that Hannah Poling and Bailey Banks are examples of successful Vaccine Court cases where vaccines caused autism. This is wrong.
    * Hannah Poling was found to have a mitochondrial disorder, and that the vaccine worsened her condition. The court did not rule that a vaccine caused autism. Note, mitochondrial disorder is not autism, though some in the anti-vax camp claim it is.
    * Bailey Banks was found to have suffered acute disseminated encephalomyelitis (ADEM). This disease occurs in approximately 1 or 2 per million vaccine recipients, compared with 1 per 1,000 individuals infected with measles and 1 per 500 rubella infections. (pmj.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/79/927/11) The court ruled that this is a type of pervasive developmental disorder, but made clear that it is not autism. Like the Poling case, anti-vaxers try to distort the truth to make their case. In the case of ADEM, vaccination helps reduce the risk of contracting the disease by reducing the likelihood of natural infection.
    * Despite the low standards of proof in the vaccine court (more likely than not, or 50% + a hair), no one has been able to establish a causal relationship between vaccines and autism.
    * In three of the best cases put forth by the anti-vax movement, the court ruled in all three that vaccines did not cause the individuals’ autism.
    * Before VICP, the media fueled fears about vaccines, leading to increases in law suits and many manufacturers halting production of vaccines altogether. The VICP was proposed by a coalition of government, health organization, and industry representatives, as well as physicians and ordinary citizens as a means to ensure a suitable supply of vaccines while allowing legal recourse to those injured by vaccines. (www (dot) hhs.gov/nvpo/factsheets/fs_tableIV_doc1.htm)
    * Individuals may still seek damages through the tort system, if they choose, though they must then prove not only that the vaccine caused the injury, but also that the manufacturer was at fault.

    Vaccines in General
    * Pro-disease anti-vaxers want vaccines that are 100% safe. This is never going to happen, as all medicines carry some risk. However, the relative risk of injury from vaccines is significantly lower than the risk of injury from getting the disease naturally. For more information, see www (dot) cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/6mishome.htm
    * Reduced vaccination rates lead to higher incidents of infection. This has been illustrated in the U.K. following Wakefield’s bogus study, in Germany in 2006 (including two deaths in unvaccinated children – see www (dot) who.int/bulletin/volumes/87/2/07-050187/en/index.html), in California (see www (dot) cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm57e222a1.htm), in MN (where an unvaccinated child died from hemophilus influenza type b – see www (dot) emaxhealth.com/1020/50/28863/minnesota-child-dies-lack-hib-meningitis-vaccination.html).
    * Pro-disease anti-vaxers claim that “Big Pharma” makes lots of money from vaccines. If vaccination rates dropped, however, there would be an increase in preventable illnesses, many of which have high rates of complications resulting in hospitalization and expensive treatment. See the link about Germany above for information on costs associated with the measles outbreak there. The money to be made from the diseases far outweighs any money to be made from vaccines.
    * Pro-disease anti-vaxers claim that better hygiene has led to a decrease in disease, rather than vaccines. However, many of the diseases prevented by vaccines are airborne, and are not greatly impacted by improved sanitation or hygiene.
    * Pro-disease anti-vaxers claim that too many antigens (the parts that make the vaccines work) are given at once, ignoring that infants and children are exposed to thousands of antigens every day by touching things and putting their hands or the object in their mouth, through absorption or by inhaling.
    * They claim that combination shots should be avoided, and that parents should break up the vaccinations into individual vaccines and spread them out. However, this increases the total number of shots received, as well as exposure to those various “toxins” they hate so much.
    * There have been no well-controlled studies establishing a causal link between vaccines and autism.
    * There have been numerous well-controlled studies sponsored and run by various people and organizations around the world that have shown no link between vaccines and autism.

    Population X and Vaccines/Autism
    * Pro-disease anti-vaxers claim the Amish do not vaccinate and do not have autism. This stems from a lie by Dan Olmsted from Age of Autism. The Amish do, in fact, vaccinate, and it appears that their rates of autism may be lower than in the general population. (autism-myths.org/2008/09/the-amish-anomaly/)
    * Some claim that the Chinese do not have a word for autism (they do, it’s 自闭症 [zì bì zhèng]). And simply not having a word for the disease does not mean that it does not exist, merely that it is not recognized as a specific disorder. Did autism only afflict people after someone created the diagnosis? No, but it may have been called something else.
    * The same claim about the Chinese has been made about Somalis due to a recent article about Somalis in Minnesota (www (dot) nytimes.com/2009/03/17/health/17auti.html?ref=science&pagewanted=all). Again, lack of recognition does not mean that the disease never occurred in the population. Further, the cases in Minnesota do not have a consistent connection to vaccines. Some of those with autism have been vaccinated, some have not. Despite a lack of evidence, Generation Rescue (which runs Age of Autism) has told the Somali parents that vaccines were the cause.

  2. Martin Moran

    I really didn’t know he was involved with Jenny McCarthy. Funny people are generally quite clever, obviously there are some exceptions to the rule.

  3. Todd W.

    Oops…that should’ve been “sorry for the length” not “links” in the first paragraph.

  4. bob

    Todd W, that’s a great summary. Did you compile it yourself? If so, I’d suggest getting it up somewhere permanently.

  5. Todd W.

    @bob

    A few vaccine posts ago, I did a draft version of it, then decided to just make a more reader-friendly summary with links to further information so I could kinda pre-emptively address anti-vax comments.

  6. Mchl

    I will watch all Carrey’s movies! But will not pay a dime for them! Dodge that!

  7. Flip

    “I for one will never watch another Jim Carrey movie again, ever.”

    You watched his movies before this? :-p

  8. Jon B

    If only they made a vaccine to prevent the stupid…

  9. OtherRob

    I second what bob said, Todd W. That is a wonderful piece and should be posted somewhere permanent.

  10. Personally, I don’t know if giving a smackdown to a particular mouthpiece of a movement does much good. There’s a fundamental problem that anti-vaxxers want to address but because they don’t know how, they’re looking for an easy culprit to feel like they’re making some headway in what seems to be an epidemic of autism, and they find it in Big Pharma and vaccines. And of course, the dramatic rise in cases of autism may have as much to do with bureaucracy as it does with medicine.

    Apologies for the shameless plug… http://worldofweirdthings.com/2009/04/08/a-case-of-medical-luddism/

    Wait… if I’m asking for an apology, it the plug really that shameless?

  11. I was so boggled by the number of fallacies in that piece I had to post a deconstruction myself. Shameless blog plug: http://padraic2112.wordpress.com/2009/04/23/in-which-i-take-jim-carrey-to-task/

  12. Michelle

    …Oh Ace Ventura. Why did this have to happen? How will I ever laugh at your funny faces again?

    I’m with you, Phil. There is just…no way I will ever be able to look at Ace Ventura again without gagging. (Wait. What? He had other movies?)

  13. The stupid, it kills.

  14. rob

    if you want to a more, um, scathing fed-up rebuttal to the jim carey article, go to:

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/

  15. BJN

    I don’t boycott actors or performers because of their strange religious views or other views that I disagree with. Free speech means tolerating stupid speech and the best response is to counteract it with persuasive speech of your own. I’m not a big Carrey fan but I’ll watch him when he does good work and won’t punish him for voicing an opinion. There are just too many talented artists in the world with woo beliefs to boycott them all.

  16. Nathaniel

    I for one will never watch another Jim Carrey movie again, ever.

    Hm. No great loss, IMHO. :P

  17. Todd W., how is your web page with that writeup (along wth the evolution denyer caveats) coming? Your compilation needs to be readily available to pre-empt the stupid pro-disease killers out there.

  18. Lawrence

    We have a bit of an outbreak of measles here in Maryland right now. An individual went to China & contracted the disease there – spent some time in a local emergency room before anyone knew he had measles, and at least a half dozen cases have been reported (including an 8 month old).

    Seriously, get and stay vaccinated people! Your kids too!

  19. Todd W.

    Web page? What’s a web page? :)

    And IVAN3MAN mentioned he was working on an evolution version, complete with pictures.

  20. Mchl

    BJN: voicing your opinion is one thing, and using your popularity to spread harmful misinformation are two different things.

  21. I agree with those above, who have lauded Todd W. for his informative comment. Todd, I would change one word in your presentation. At one point you say, “To date, no well-controlled study has shown a causal link between thimerosal and autism.” I would change that line to read, “…no properly controlled study…” It’s just a little more emphatic, and points out more succinctly that the opposite – improperly controlled studies – are worthless. Just the unrequited editor in me poking his head up. Thanks for putting that together, though. I’ll be bookmarking it for future reference. Is it on the web elsewhere?

  22. This stuff has been driving me especially insane lately since I discovered someone I know is antivax. Whenever he starts talking about it, I start thinking of boron, as in that part of this Geologic song. Worse still, he’s so snide about it. It drives me up the fuh-rikken wall.

    I got to say, that I haven’t seen a Jim Carrey movie willfully in a long time. I was under the impression that he stopped making new movies. Except for that remake of Liar, Liar, what was it called… oh yeah, Yes Man. I guess that was old-new, (I haven’t seen it).

  23. Tom Woolf

    Until recently I had not noticed JC putting his name or image on any of PHT-JMcC’s brand of anti-vax woo. I wasn’t pleased when he set aside $50mil for her, guaranteeing that she was fiscally able to spew her woo, but then who am I to question a wealthy person making their spouse (and parent of their children) comfortable for life?

    But with this woo spewage of his, combined with his appearing on Larry King with PHT-JMcC, I have to side with Dr. Plait and avoid all things JC. No TV, no movies, no nuthin’.

    Bill and Melinda Gates take their wealth and images and use them to protect poor children from malaria.

    JC & PHT-JMcC take theirs and try to drag public health back 75+ years.

  24. Oh, and since my linky comment is going into moderation, I wanted to get in seperate thanks to Todd W. Thankyouthankyouthankyou. Where is that compiled, because I think I have a link to email some- um, people.

  25. I think Carrey’s ‘evolved’ into Fire Marshall Bill
    [‘evolved’ in the same sense that physicists use ‘negative acceleration’ instead of ‘deceleration’)

    J/P=?

  26. Todd W.,

    You, IVAN3MAN and I could probably collaberate and get something set up. I have a host that can take the traffic for sure, so we can see about putting it all together. And I know IVAN3MAN has a lot more skill than I do with web pages and HTML.

    Tom Woolf, well said!

  27. Mchl

    Perhaps I could help somehow as well

  28. Pieter Kok

    Todd, you should post that on HuffPost

  29. CD

    There’s a whooping cough outbreak in my neck of the woods (Austin area-Central Texas). The papers are reporting that it may have something to do with high numbers of children, especially in private schools, who aren’t vaccinated. (http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/local/04/23/0423whooping.html) I just pray that my children won’t have an allergy or some other problem that will keep them from getting vaccinated. I can’t imagine the worry of parents in that situation.

  30. Geek Goddess

    It’s dishonest to rag on celebrities who spout their views (no matter how wrong), but then praise celebrities when you AGREE with their pulpit-pounding. If you think they shouldn’t have such a loud voice based on their celebrity, be consistent.

  31. Mchl

    IMHO it actually matters if they’re wrong or not.

  32. In sentiment I agree with you Geek Goddess; however, it’s always nice to cheer for people who are smart as a counterpoint for the vacuous bubleheads that are so common. And this is not about agreeing and dissagreeing. This is between correct and WRONG. The folks who are plain wrong are costing people (especially children) their lives with their lies… That’s the crux of the position.

  33. Kev

    Phil just FYI – the Opposing Views piece is mine from LB/RB (they have my permission). Might be worth going to read the whacko comments though ;)

  34. Karl Withakay

    I’ve been kind of soured on Jim Carrey for a while anyway. His hippy appearance at the Oscars after he didn’t win for The Truman Show wasn’t amusing. I’ve heard that a lot of people who have worked with him say he’s a big @ss, always has to be the funny guy and center of attention, etc.

    Other than the Truman show, he pretty much keeps playing the same character over and over again, hoping to remind people that they once found him funny.

    I had no interest in seeing “Yes Man”, because I already saw that movie when it was called “Liar, Liar”. (Even Zooey Deschanel was enough to make me want to see the movie, and I really like her- hubba, hubba.)

    Since he’s descended into anti-vaccination lunacy, I have less interest in him as an actor than Scientology loon Tom Cruise.

  35. Karl Withakay

    Geek Goddess,

    To some extent, I agree with you, but when a celebrity uses their prominence to spout unscientific, unsupported positions that are injurious to public health, they should be criticized.

    When a celebrity looks at an issue and considers the scientific evidence and consensus of the scientific and medical communities, makes a rational decision, and speaks out publicly to promote public health and oppose a popular but unscientific and medically dangerous position (one that is already being promoted by other celebrities), that celeb deserve a little bit of recognition.

    Celeb will always have powerful advocating strength with the public, we can’t really hope to change that.

  36. Todd W. — thanks for that great summary.

    Tell Jim Carrey that hw is wrong about vaccines and autism from Autism.Change.Org:

    All the publicity surrounding the claims of a vaccine-autism link has diverted attention and energy away from focusing on issues of pressing importance to individuals on the autism spectrum including education and schools, services, employment, and housing.

    Ask Jim Carrey to reconsider his statements about vaccines and autism and, if he wishes to advocate for autism, to rather direct his energies to support services and education for individuals on the autism spectrum.

    The suggested text of the letter. Feel free to compose your own message and post it at the Change.org link, above:

    Dear Mr. Carrey,

    I have read your recent article in The Huffington Post, “The Judgment on Vaccines Is In???” in which you assert that “We don’t know enough to announce that all vaccines are safe” and that further research about a possible vaccine-autism link is necessary. Further research has and is being done, and the scientific evidence refuting this hypothetical link is steadily accruing. Nonetheless, this issue continues to hold the attention of the public and of parents who have become fearful of vaccinating their young children.

    It is unfortunate that, due to your celebrity, many people will listen to your statements about vaccines and even decide not to have their children receive the vaccines that are important for their health. Please reconsider your statements about vaccines and autism and please rather direct your energies to supporting services and education for individuals on the autism spectrum.

  37. Michelle

    The difference, Geek Goddess, is that Carey and McCarthy are saying scientists are wrong by spewing unproven nonsense and denying evidence. Amanda Peet realizes that facts and facts unless they are proven wrong by strong evidence.

    It’s not a matter of expertise. I don’t think Peet claims she’s an expert in the field. She says she trusts the experts have the truth. That’s a massive difference.

  38. Kazorek

    From the Carrey piece:
    “[toxins in vaccines] may be causing autism and other disorders (Aspergers, ADD, ADHD).”

    This reminds me of my writing class in 7th grade, trying to write a persuasive essay: “Hanging around high schoolers might be why some middle schoolers use tobacco and lots of other drugs (chew, cigars, alcohol, beer, Zima, vodka).”

  39. Geek Goddess, I’m “dishonest”? I disagree. In the case of someone like Amanda Peet — the only celebrity I think I have praised here on this blog about this — she was saying how people should listen to doctors and others who have done actual research. That’s a huge difference.

    Read again what I wrote: “It bothers me greatly that people with no scientific training and who are indeed ignoring and distorting scientific results have such a loud voice in the media.”

    I hope you can see this difference.

  40. Maybe it is because I have a son with autism that Carrey’s McCarhtyism ticks me off like it does, or maybe it is that I so often see the results of painstaking research, where people have really taken the effort to get it right being dismissed by nothing more than a ‘I just don’t believe it’ and ad hominem attacks.

    Please please please mr. Carrey, tell me to my face that I caused my son’s autism by vaccinating him, that my daughter was merely lucky not to get it and you might be the very first human I don’t reply to with words but with a smack in the face. Go ahead, make my day. Oh, and after that, we can have a lengthy discussion.

    btw anyone else who wants to blame me for my son’s autism? I heard of the anti-vac nonsense I found no evidence for it. With that knowledge, I had, and am still having, my kids getting their shots. So come on, blame me…………..

  41. Todd W.

    @TheChemist

    This is the only place I have that summary posted so far. I wrote it mainly because I was tired of saying the same stuff over and over on every single vaccine thread.

    @Larian

    Sounds interesting. I’d love to collaborate on something.

    @Everyone

    Thanks for the kind words and feedback. I’ll take that “properly controlled” suggestion to heart. Good point.

  42. flawedprefect

    I didn’t know Mr Carey was so hard up for sex. Is McCarthy bribing him? Is she taunting him with the prospect of sleeping with her? Is she saying “write this article and I’ll put out”?

    I used Occam’s razor on this (after I used it to shave this morning) and it is the simplest, most logical explanation I can come up with.

  43. Chris A.

    Yeah, no Jim Carrey movies for me either. I don’t want my money going to people who recklessly endanger children.

    Some time ago I started boycotting the movies of people who, I feel, shouldn’t get my money. The Scientology crowd alone keeps me away from a sizable chunk of Hollywood’s offerings.

  44. Chris

    In addition to Amanda Peet, Keri Russell has championed the pertussis vaccine on pkids . org (Parents of Kids with Infectious Diseases), and today I saw Jennifer Lopez is doing the same at soundsofpertussis . com (which is a vaccine manufacturer website, it is so well hidden by the icon on the upper left hand corner!).

    I personally don’t care is someone is an actor, I am only interested if they are spouting nonsense.

  45. @Todd W.

    You can get to my web page via my name and email me from there (or go with Larian AT LarianLeQuella DOT com). Make sure to say Todd W. from BA so I know to look for your email. You too IVAN3MAN! Where are you mate?

    @Erwin, you go! I have a nephew with severe autism, and my daughter has been diagnosed as having a slight Asperger’s Spectrum (Heck, sometimes I suspect I have that as well). And we’re all vaccinated.

  46. IVAN3MAN

    @ Larian LeQuella,

    I’m right ‘ere, mate, and thanks for the compliment. Yeah, I would like collaborate… I could incorporate Todd W’s statistics, as shown above, into a fancy table layout!

    :cool:

  47. dhtroy

    BA

    I have three little ones at home, and the wife and I have had all of them vaccinated. I will admit that when some of this hit the press, we both did our fair share of reading, trying to find the and understand the facts; and having to wade through a mountain of information on the subject was no easy matter.

    But having done so, and read so much, I think the reason people, especially parents, are so willing to believe it’s possible to get something like autism from a vaccination, is that our corporate and drug industries have a nasty habit of denying problems exist with their products, only to come out years, decades, later and admit that “yes” they knew there was a problem … etc… etc… Just watch T.V. long enough, and there are countless lawsuits against the drug companies for drugs that have caused massive health problems in people.

    Because of things like that, it leads people to trust no one, even if the science clearly states there is no correlation between autism and vaccinations. Because you desperately want to be a good parent, and not bring harm to your child, and that doubt can be very compelling.

    Yes – I fully understand that NOT getting a child a vaccination is certainly, without doubt, endangering the child’s health, but these people aren’t thinking that way; for whatever reason, they are fixated on the other side of what “could” happen if they get a vaccination, and not what will happen, if they do not.

    Until someone can change their line of thinking, this battle will continue. We need a celebrity to speak in favor of vaccinations, and educate people on the real dangers of not getting them; and sorry Phil, despite your almost “God like” internet status, I don’t think you’re celebrity is going to cut it. :p

    Just my meager thoughts on the subject …

  48. Keith

    I feel very sorry for Jenny McCarthy’s son Evan, that his mom couldn’t outwit a staple gun and a de facto dad in Carrey who is going along with her stupidity.

  49. MadScientist

    Great poster BA, now all we need are posters of children dying of various diseases with something like:

    “Vaccines can prevent this, but Jenny McCarthy doesn’t want you to vaccinate your children”

  50. @Orac:
    great (?) minds think alike
    # John Paradox Says:
    April 23rd, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    I think Carrey’s ‘evolved’ into Fire Marshall Bill
    [’evolved’ in the same sense that physicists use ‘negative acceleration’ instead of ‘deceleration’)

    J/P=?

  51. Mike C.

    Well seems like a lot of well put together information. Regardless of it causing or not causing autism. Anyone know where the research is that proves there effectiveness? I mean double blind randomly controlled studies? I can not find any? You know control, test group,etc the way it is supposed to be done?

  52. Elaine McKillop

    Isn’t it interesting how many people want to launch ad hominem attacks on someone who is dealing with a child that was diagnosed with Autism, and with diligence is saving this child from a life that was far below his potential. Jim Carrey is a man with a dog in this fight. Carrey is justifiably irate over the pharmaceutical manufactures blasé attitude regarding the lives of children. Carrey is certainly not putting himself out their to take the kind of abuse that has been dished out at him for financial gain or fame, he has both, his stake in this debate is a heartfelt desire to protect future children from vaccine injury. The parents with vaccine-injured children are not going to let disinformation distributors such as you win this battle. The pharmaceutical cartel may have billions of dollars to spend to propagandize this issue, but there are cracks erupting in your wall of denial. The claim of consensus is the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled. Whenever you hear the consensus of scientists agrees on something the public is being had.

    When the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Act of 1986 was established, now commonly called the “vaccine court” it was intended to be a “no fault” system designed to compensate families for vaccine injured children and at the same time shield the vaccine manufactures from civil liability since they provided such a vital product, they should not be shut down by costly litigation. The “vaccine court” has paid out $1.18 billion since 1988 for the vaccines you believe are so safe. That number by no means represents that justice was served. A monster was created that denies every American their Constitutional right of redress for a vaccine-injured child. Authoritarian types do not like the pesky Constitution. (If it befuddles you, you can give Dr. Ron Paul a call since he is obviously the only man in Washington who has read it and understands it. Ask Dr. Paul about the 7th Amendment. ) It is my position that this blanket immunity from tort liability removed the incentive from pharmaceutical companies to develop safer vaccines.

    The interesting thing about the recent Vaccine Court cases is that they have the issues framed in a very narrow way. In my opinion, if the issues were broader then what was decided the outcome would have been different. The question should not have been does thimerosal cause Autism but do all the vaccines given to a child in their first two years of life cause Autism? Getting back to the thimerosal question, this case was not decided on the facts, but by the exclusion of facts. The Daubert Standard was hauled out and used to exclude evidence, even though this is suppose to be a non adversarial no fault substitute for a real court of law, which this is not. It has the same despotic injustice as a Star Chamber Hearing during the Inquisition, which is historically the hallmark for unfair judicial proceedings. Maybe that will change.

    A recent case headed to the U. S. Supreme Court titled, “American Home Products vs Ferrari”, was brought by parents of a boy who developed neurological problems, including autism, after receiving childhood vaccines containing thimerosal. The Georgia Supreme Court ruled that this family was not preempted from filing a state court case if a product that could have been made safer harmed their child.

    Interestingly enough a cast of characters that oppose the vaccine / autism debate being played out in a real court of law, not the kangaroo court set up by the pharma loving Feds signed on to a amici curiae brief asking the Supreme Court to overrule the Georgia decision. Listed are some that oppose the Georgia ruling: The American Academy of Family Physicians, AAP Section on Infectious Diseases, American College of Osteopathic Pediatricians, American Medical Association, American Public Health Association, Every Child By Two, Immunization Action Coalition, Infectious Disease Society of America, Pediatric Infectious Disease Society, and the Vaccine Education Center at The Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia. It is the usual group of Autism / vaccine deniers who claim the issue is settled. Let me make myself perfectly clear, if you are going to err when it comes to the life of a child, it should be on the side of caution. How dare this group try to deny any injured child their constitutional rights! Follow the money. They are all pharmaceutical bedfellows.

    If this case is not overturned, if this issue is played out in fifty state courts, where it should be, with juries made up of real Americans hearing the facts about just how many time the “coincidence” occurred that a normal healthy baby was injected with a dangerious and deadly vaccines and regressed into Autism, just what do you think those juries will decide? The Wakefield’s and the Jim Carrey’s will be vindicated.

  53. JackC

    @Tom Woolf

    Easy on the use of the initials bro, OK??

    JC

  54. My favorite parts of the refutation of Carrey’s spewings come from the Opposing Views article. In it, Kevin Leitch first points out that “after between 51 and 346 days breast feeding, a 6 year old will have taken onboard the same amount of Aluminium as from the total US vaccine schedule.” Clearly, going by Jim Carry’s reasoning, we need to ban breastmilk as a threat to our children.

    Later on, he notes that “the total amount of Formaldehyde in vaccines from the vaccine schedule for a 6 year old child is 1.2016mg” and “1 (one) banana contains 16.3mg”. So one banana is more than TEN TIMES the amount of formaldehyde as ALL VACCINES from birth to 6 years old. Oh dear lord, I gave my son a banana in his cereal for breakfast… What have I done?!!!

    Please, no one show Jim Carrey the dhmo.org website, he might take it seriously and push to have Dihydrogen Monoxide banned. On the other hand, someone show it to him. It’d be amusing to hear him claim that Dihydrogen Monoxide causes autism.

  55. Eric TF Bat

    @Todd W – Email me at bat@flurf.net. Using a free web hosting system called Jottit, I’ve marked up your comment, and I can give you the keys to your brand spanking new single webpage so you can edit it if you like, or just point people to the link.

  56. Elaine McKillop

    Just a question, do you moderate out anyone that does not agree with you?

  57. Elian Gonzalez

    What was even more disturbing was the barrage of self-satisfied members of the bourgeoisie seconding this idiot’s “essay.” Proof that stupidity isn’t just the domain of (presumed) intellectually-challenged people derided as “hicks.”

  58. Elaine McKillop, no. I have an automoderator that flagged your comments for some reason. Note they are now posted.

    Also, you should read my earlier posts on this, as I am not making an ad hominem attack on Carrey. I attack his arguments. I don’t care if he’s an actor or a doctor; he’s wrong.

  59. ToddW – We’re not worthy! [/Wayne and Garth] Awesome post. As others have said, please let us know when – and where – you get that online somewhere permanent.

  60. isles

    Actually, I think ToddW should (in addition to having his primer on a webpage where search engines can find it) keep pasting the whole ball of wax into comment threads where it is needed. People don’t go to links but they will notice the enormity of what is, in truth, only a slice of the evidence against the antivaxers’ position.

    Well done!

    Don’t forget: http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com

  61. Spunk-Monkey

    As an aside, Elaine McKillop, i thank you for taking the time to disagree here. I’ve tried politely and respectfully do the same on a number of the pro-disease sites, but am either blocked or removed. “Age of Autism” actually moderator-edited my post, blocked me so i couldn’t follow-up, and –i’m not making this up– declared me a government plant on behalf of some vaccine industry marketing agenda.

    Of course, i could use a second paycheck these days. If i could get paid for openly and honestly discussing a topic i care about, let me know.

  62. Todd W. et all, I made it a blog entry as well (with links and all) at http://larianlequella.com/2009/04/pro-disease-nutters.shtml

    Todd W and whoever else we can get together to put this together will expand and make it better as we get going. Same goes for IVAN3MAN’s evolution compilation.

  63. Kblanco

    Going to be brave here….would rather have measles, and others, than a lifetime of autism. My kids have the virus on their peyers patches, they have metabolic dissaray from thimerosol (which acts on mitochondria to damage them), had mercury flowing out of them like a river, and they almost died from them qualifying for reporting, so, you self bloating people can stick it. You think you know everything? What about the tables, which clearly show the diseases were almost wiped out BEFORE vaccined hit the market. Do your homework yourself. I think most of you are sharp, that is for sure, but your hate mongering borders on ridiculous. And herd immunity was based on the ACTUAL disease, not a vaccinated population, do your homework again. Vaccines either cause, inititate, or worsen the autism condition, based on my research, so stick it.

  64. madge

    Todd W you are a genius! Thank you
    :)

  65. John S.

    It’s amusing to see so many spouting off on poor old Jim. Perhaps they should educate themselves a little more before belittling others. Why don’t we start with these…

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18482737?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16807526?ordinalpos=4&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

    I realize that most of the neg. studies against thimerosal come from the same author, but hey, he has published a Nature paper, which is more than can probably said for the vast majority of posters here.

    And for the comment by Todd, that ethylmercury is not as harmful as the methyl variety, perhaps you should read:

    Arch Toxicol. 1985 Sep;57(4):260-7.

    Oh, and some flu vaccines and HepB vaccines continues to use thimerosal as a preservative.

    http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/ccdr-rmtc/07vol33/acs-06/index-eng.php

    As to Todd’s comment that ,”No follow-up studies have found any health risks beyond local hypersensitivity. “, type in thimerosal and autism into Pubmed (I’m presuming you know what that actually is) and there certainly are studies that suggest a link between thimerosal exposure and ASD.

    So don’t be so dismissive.

  66. Carrey doesn’t go far enough, that’s the only problem. This is called “Discover” Magazine? It purports to be scientific, right? I’ll be sure to let everyone I know what a stupid rag it is, another pundit for medical fraud, nor will I ever forget it any sooner than the taste in my mouth when I barfed up the last bad pizza.

  67. Eric TF Bat

    @Larian: I’ve marked up the table and stuff too; feel free to grab it and paste it into your version: http://antiantivax.jottit.com

  68. omeone, anyone has to speak up for the many, many who have been affected by vaccines adversely.
    If is it not a vaccine issue, why does the Homeland Security Act have code that disallows a major drug company from being sued, IF A CHILD BECOMES AUTISTIC?
    Hint: Daddy was on the board of said company in the 70’s
    Soldiers get 17 vaccines at once and have Gulf War Syndrome ,Hello???

    The non addmitence of the vaccine damage is $$$$$$$, as always.
    I see a lot of “dumb and dummer”[yet another movie] comments here, and as a researcher and parent whose child and grandchild have been affected, by vaccines, and as a human being who does not use vaccines , and is very healthy I don’t get this lamb to the slaughter mentality, when as a nation , far beyond the issues discussed here, who and whose money will take care of these children, who develope autism and other illnesses, from what? Air????????
    Question authority or be the lamb.. Your choice. Jim Carrey is a human being on this planet and entitled to an informed opinion.

  69. Rod

    “I for one will never watch another Jim Carrey movie again, ever.”

    Argh! I’ve been avoiding Jim Carrey movies since the mid-nineties, so can’t boycott him again!

  70. k9_kaos

    Wow. Who would’ve guessed that the character he played in Dumb and Dumber was based on himself.

  71. George Kopeliadis

    Oh.. Please…
    Let natural selection take it’s course …
    Idiots will die and the problem is gone !
    (just kiding :)

  72. Lawrence

    @Elaine – if you look a the history of the Vaccine Court, it was set up specifically to deal with the issues you discuss, because families didn’t want to wait for the decades it could potentially take to go through the “traditional” court system.

    As a group, they were asked to put forward the “BEST” cases that represented the greatest chance of proving any correlation between vaccines & autism (in a number of different ways, hence the three cases). The burden of proof was also MUCH lover in the Vaccine Court process than in a regular civil trial – so when the three Special Masters ruled against the three cases – they did so stating that there was NO real evidence showing a direct causation between autism and the vaccines they were given.

  73. Ema Nymton

    No, Elaine McKillop, he doesn’t moderate anyone. Kinda a pity, but it’s probably best to let everyone read what you write and realize just how stupid you are.

  74. Sarge

    The federal government sets up a court to handle vaccine injury cases in 1986.

    If vaccines are so safe, why does this court exist?

    Perhaps parents have decided that they will keep their kids safe on their own terms, instead of Big Pharma’s terms.

    Hey, it’s only our children….

  75. MarkW

    Elaine McKillop Says:

    if you are going to err when it comes to the life of a child, it should be on the side of caution

    Which is precisely the reason you should vaccinate.

  76. I had never heard of antivax, Jenny McCarthy, or Amanda Peet before reading about them on an astronomy blog. Maybe I should get out more. -_-

  77. you have got to be kidding?
    you all call yourselves educated?
    for your information, those 3 cases that were lost, had no specialists/experts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    they used dr.paul offit, who created a vaccine and is paid big dollars by big pharma and brian deere a newspaper reporter from london. now, some wins, from the u sgovt pleading no contest to vaers. and many more that have gag orders from courts.
    what you as a writer did not write about are the cases that were won, where the government pleaded no contest (hannah polling) or the case where a boy with autism, it was clearly found and concluded that asd(autism spcetral disorder) was clearly caused. nad btw there has been millions payed out in vaccine injury courts in the u.s.a.
    i am speaking from a scientific background in chemistry and microbiology.
    if some of you people remember back in the 1970’s or 80’s, “anyone taking any medical or biology major was told ” any form of mercury taken internally, will go directly to the central nervous system”
    hey, that’s the brain people, or should i say sheeple? and mercury does destroy the mitochondria, which is responsible for all life, and activity of all living organisms. so take your pick, brain damage or weakened immune system for life?
    some other proven examples of mercury harming us , is the dental amalgams which are 50% mercury. ever wonder why dentists have the highest rate of suicide and alcoholism, hellooooo, mercury.
    whether it be autism, adhd ,addd, aspergers, diabetes, thyroid malfunction, ms, als, depression or heart disease. you can thank mercury, the aluminum salts, and definitely the antifreeze components, and formaldehye.
    but lets now find out how they ,(big pharma) use fecal matter, stem cells from dead fetuses, feces and urine from affected parties.
    if you do not believe it go to the inventor of vaccines for smallpox.
    btw vaccines is from word derivative vaca or cow, where the 1st vaccine was created. and it is odd one example of those that never use vaccines, and in great health are the amish. there are plenty of valid sites on vaccines, if people care to look them up
    last , but not least, check out vaccine ingredients, i know i would not want anyone i love or family to get a vaccine. here is the link of real ingredients, “witches brew’ from our govt and big pharma http://www.oasisadvancedwellness.com/learning/informed-vaccine.html
    thank you

  78. also , look at the new statistics of autism rates worldwide
    in the united staes 1/60 , mostly boys because vaccines affect testosterone 1/38 have autism in the uk
    in the military 1/60 ever wonder about ptsd and ‘gulf war syndrome”? there should be a real study on vaccines,which never has been done or qualified, the cdc aap ada and govt agencies endorse them.
    did oyu know vaccines were created for the masses by the rockefeller foundation? even back then 1919, scientists cautioned bad results with lab rats and monkeys. so we the population are the new lab rats?

  79. Keith

    @Elaine – Where is your evidence that the organizations you mentioned are in bed with the pharmaceutical companies. Oh wait, that’s right, like every other pro-disease person, you don’t have any and just hand-wave and speculate, and insist there’s some evil, money driven conspiracy to harm our children in the name of profits.

    Those of us who support vaccinating our children have OVERWHELIMING SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE showing no correlation between vaccines and autism.

    I don’t know if you have any children, or plan to, but when they die from diseases that could have been prevented by a simple series of shots that you decided they didn’t need, don’t come crying to us! We could care less.

  80. MadScientist

    @BA:

    I for one will never watch another Jim Carrey movie again, ever.

    Yup, I’m with you on that one. Dang, my list is growing. No more Mel Gibson, no Jim Carrey, I crossed someone else off my list only last week but now I’ve got to check my little black book … No big loss really since there are rarely ever any movies worth watching these days.

  81. jon

    so how does the writer of this blog explain the fact that Jenny eliminated the symptoms of her son’s autism by putting him on a special diet and reversing his toxic load? Why would her son be fine before his vaccinations, only to become autistic afterwards?

    What IF it is true that many vaccinations are highly toxic and that autism is caused from toxic overload?

  82. andyb

    New Scientist wittily point out that Carrey starred in “Dumb and Dumber” and “Liar Liar”.

    http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2009/04/dumb-and-dumber-star-carrey-sp.html

  83. Todd W.

    @Elaine McKillop

    Please go back up to the top and read my first post. I address the issue of the vaccine courts there and clear up some misconceptions you seem to have. Note the part where people can still seek redress in the tort system if they so choose. No violations of Constitutional rights. Oh, and one thing I didn’t mention up there was that, win or lose, families are reimbursed for their court costs, something which would not happen in the tort system. Follow the link I provided for more info.

  84. Anthony

    You go to opposing views and you see comments like this:

    “Whenever you hear the consensus of scientists agrees on something the public is being had.”

    I think somebody had better tell this to those gravity nuts. Seems to be a pretty big conspiracy there; clear proof we’re getting had.

  85. Eric TF Bat has kindly reformatted my post and made it all shiny and pretty over at antiantivax.jottit.com. My name is also linked to it, although, as someone else mentioned above, I think I’ll continue reposting it to future vaccine threads, because people don’t like to follow links.

  86. Alex Reynolds

    Do you guys have the same views on Monsanto or do you consider them another “benevolent giant” after all the toxic waste theyve dumped into the environment? Here is a framework of their subversive actions:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto

    Finally, rGBH milk is being pulled off the shelves– once and for all. There’s a reason why the WHO and the Canadian Ministry of Health condemned them and wont sell any of their products, while our own scandal ridden FDA turns a blind eye. At least with all the lawsuits theyve been losing recently, we’re finally bringing them down on their knees. Meanwhile you naive little idiots can live in your wonderful fantasy-land… but just know that people have the right to vaccinate or not vaccinate their children and neither you nor anyone else should ever take their right away.

    BTW, before I hear any of you fools defend large corporations like Merck… just remember that they were recently found guilty of trying to threaten doctors into prescribing their medication (in the court system of Australia)

    http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,25273468-462,00.html

    and need we get into the landmine that is/are Celebrex, Vioxx etc– and why the FDA lets these commercials air on TV is beyond me– except of course, overwhelming greed. So before I see any of you low IQ morons try to defend the large corruption infested drug companies get your facts straight or I’ll make you run with your tail between your legs. I hope your children end up with autism or mental retardation because you surely deserve it.

  87. polio is meningitis and another case was won from a parent getting polio transferred from infant sons’s diaper
    meningitis is polio is you look at the definition
    and back in the 60’s everyone had measles , mumps and chickenpox and survived. adults that get german measles were warned of sterilty.
    but if you look at just the flu vaccines track record the us governent says the wrong flu arrived and the vaccines did not work for the current flu, that has been atated over and over for the last 18 years. and the new vaccien gardasil, so far 33 deaths and thousands of paralysis or guileenes barre .
    also the lyme vaccine was a failure.
    the point is there has never been a study on vaccines efficacy.
    until thereis, but there has been a scuttlbutt with the fda, their own scientists are complaining of faulty studies.

  88. antiantivax.jottit.com looks great guys. Excellent work Todd W, and Eric TF Bat we bow to your superior net skillz.
    Although… it doesn’t have as many pictures as an IVAN3Man post….

  89. @ Todd W.

    I would love to copy and post your summary on my blog. Its just getting started, but is growing in readership – http://www.mitoblog.net – The entire idea that people will not vaccinate their children bc of misconceptions makes me IRATE! My daughter has mitochondrial disesase and CANNOT get the pertussis vaccination because of her seizure disorder (even on 5 seizure medications, she is still having 4 to 10 a day, and we have been fighting them since she was 4 weeks old). What I would give to have the peace of mind that she has her vaccination against pertussis. We have her on homebound school status for her special needs public preschool, so she is not around other kids at the moment and I have made all our adult family and friends who are around her on a regular basis get the pertussis booster.

    Not only do these nut-jobs spouting anti-vax endanger their own children, they endanger the ones around them – your kids and mine! It has to stop .. AND just the other day I found out that a good friend of mine has not vaccinated her 2 year old since she was 6 months old and has some mild seizures (which are resolved) and that her friend FORGES the vaccination record she gives to the school since she does not get her kids vaccinated!!!

    In any event, I would love to post your full summary on my blog with credit given, of course. Please let me know – you can email me at LNHIGGINS @ GMAIL . COM (remove the spaces). Keep up the good work!

  90. Charles Boyer

    “Whenever you hear the consensus of scientists agrees on something the public is being had.”

    This is so stupid a statement it borders insane.

    I am sorry but there is no other conclusion to that statement other than that.

    I suppose Big Physics is determined to fool us into believing the well-established laws of classical physics, just for example. Who knew that the Laws of Thermodynamics were a scam.

  91. Karl Withakay

    Elaine McKillop,

    “Jim Carrey is a man with a dog in this fight”

    EVERYBODY has a dog in this fight; public health is everybody’s interest. Heard immunity is EVERYBODY’S interest.

    Knowing a child with autism does not give anyone special scientific insight to the facts or the right to shout “Fire!” in a crowded building when there’s no fire, even if you believe, against all evidence and reason, that there is a fire.

  92. Elaine McKillop

    My son and daugther have been vaccinated and will get all the shots to follow. I knew of anti-vaccine before the first shot. My son is a properly diagnosed autist, my daughter has no signs of anything out of the ordinary.

    Now tell me, am I evil, deluded, have I willfully and knowingly harmed my children (and thus should be locked up). Or, and I’ll pull a McCarthy on you, I’m am the parent of this boy and I say it were not the vaccines. I’m the parent, so I am right, I’m a dad warrior and my son is a helium-neon child*

    Not to give any info about myself away but I should consider my nack for focused attention, love for all things abstract and mathematic, not too mention SF (including Star Trek and Star Wars), might by due to vaccination: w00t, evil vacs FTW!!! Big pharma made me smart.

    *That’s about 200nm over indigo and a lasertype that is common in education (yeah, education, couldn’t let it pass)

  93. Most here have probably heard it but let me give a link to some comic relief along the line of Charles Boyer’s comment

    http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4150

    Exalted Grand Illuminatus of the New World Order of Masonic Illuminati Brian Dunning, aided by the Most Evil Lee Sanders have a plan!

  94. rbelyell

    i am not a scientist; i am an attorney. i posit that one does not have to be a ‘scientist’ to look at a set of facts and draw reasonable inferences.

    first fact: we must and should immunize against a small variety of awful diseases that can cause much damage if left unchecked
    second fact: at 50 years old i am witness to the radical change in the infant immunization process. we went from polio, whopping cough, ‘german’ measles and maybe one or two more–GIVEN OVER A PERIOD OF YEARS– to over a dozen–GIVEN OVER A PERIOD OF WEEKS.
    third fact: there has been a tremendous and unaccounted for increase in the number of autistic children, especially those who exhibit no symptoms until 18-24 months.

    the conclusion i, as a non-scientist, draw is that there may well be a link between immunization and autism caused by the sheer number given in a compressed time period, which logic says simply cannot be properly observed by many infant bodies.

    i do not advocate abolition of immunization. what i do advocate is taking a logical look at the tiny, helpless bodies of infants and drawing a conclusion that perhaps they simply cannot tolerate this extreme level of medication over such a short period. these are bodies that have to have their own aspirin for crying out loud! perhaps, like with many other aspects of our lives, we need to return to the past when these drugs were both more limited and spread out over a much greater period. would that really hurt anyone? it didnt in the ’50’s or 60’s! then we could see if there was a concomitant decrease in autism. hey, isnt that how ‘scientists’ draw conclusions?

  95. Cheyenne

    @Todd – Fantastic. I forwarded your new website address over to some friends. Really great write-up and I think this is just a really important topic that everybody should be educated on. Well done!

  96. Phil Plait,
    My fondest wish is that you have children who become autistic and smear feces all over you.

  97. @John Best

    My fondest wish is that you have children who become autistic and smear feces all over you.

    Now, why would you wish that on anyone? Phil is not insulting people who are dealing with autism. He is calling out those people spewing false and misleading information about the disease and vaccines. If that makes you uncomfortable, I kindly suggest you educate yourself on the realities of vaccines. For starters, there’s my first post in this thread (also linked in an easier-to-read format by clicking on my name). I have links within that post where you can find even more information.

  98. Cheyenne

    @John- That’s your fondest wish? Of anything you could wish for it would be that? Damn son you don’t get out much do you? That seriously makes me laugh thinking what a creepy basement dweller you have to be to have wishes of feces smearing. I know some people are into that kind of thing but I would think they would normally shy away from publicly stating it.

  99. If you wander over to Mr Best’s blog you’ll see that he is actually into a little faeces smearing himself.

  100. Rift

    debora said
    and back in the 60’s everyone had measles , mumps and chickenpox and survived. adults that get german measles were warned of sterilty.

    EXCUSE ME???

    That is a baldface LIE. I had cousins that died from measles, mumps and chickenpox. I know someone who is BLIND because of measles. I have pock marks on my face because I caught chickenpox when i was 15 months old and didn’t know better not to scratch. They had to tie my hands down so i wouldn’t make the scars worse. Believe me they are bad enough. My sister, a decade younger then me got vaccinated, didn’t contract any of the above, nor is autistic.

    I’d rather have a lifetime of autism then be dead…

  101. @Alex Reynolds

    I’ll make you run with your tail between your legs.

    Bring it on. Show me the evidence that vaccines cause autism. Notice that not a single person in this thread is saying that vaccines are 100% safe, but compared to not vaccinating, they are safe. If you can produce data that clearly shows that the risks of injury from the vaccines outweighs the benefits of the vaccines or are greater than the risks of not vaccinating, please present it. Put up or shut up.

    Your comments on Monsanto are irrelevant to the discussion, as the topic is vaccines, not dumping of toxic waste or even GM crops. That is a whole different ballgame and does not belong in this thread.

    I hope your children end up with autism or mental retardation because you surely deserve it.

    Why do any of us deserve such? Please be precise. And, before you answer, please go back and read my initial post.

    Regarding FDA and commercials, I would suggest you take that issue up with your senators and representatives. There is no legal basis to keep drug manufacturers from advertising their products. Also, FDA recently required one company to correct their advertisements (I believe it was one of the contraceptive pill makers).

    Get your facts straight and try to keep emotion out of your arguments. They are clouding your perceptions.

  102. i am amazed that the people pro vaccine never looked at where the money trail leads to pro vax. there are investigations going on though congress as i am typing this.
    and the cdc director, that was pro vaccine was fired, not for vaccines, but allowing melamine to be in baby formulas, thank you china. the same melamine that killed thousands of pets, when melamine was added to pet food.
    how you say? melamine destroys the kidneys, and can cause death.
    and i applaud the person who commented on monsanto, a few years back they were fined for their practices.
    needless to say all the “diseases” have cures.
    the so called polio , measles epidemics are published on 3rd world countries anyways.
    as a microbiologist , there is no way you can introduce virus strains with thimerosol, aluminum slats, formaldehyde and live cell cultures to destroy a microbe (bacteria), which these diseases are.
    after working as a microbiologist/chemist for 12 years, i now work with children with autism and learning disorders, and success of removing symptoms was 100% with diets , changes in regular lifestyles and chelation.
    and btw chelation is acknowledged and approved by the u.s. govt when someone has mercury toxicity. ie: dmsa, edta nad 1 dnagerous one called bal. some use zeolites, it is safer or ndf.
    so apparently some parents use dchelation and diets with success.
    i have been a teacher for 29 years, and i see vast improvements in these kids with autism or learning disorders with those changes.
    and successfully have helped 100s of kids, with parents and dr referrals see no more speech delays, seizures and many of the other autism disorders.

  103. Rift

    Well gee Debora if you have such a high success rate of curing autism, then why not get your kids vaccinated? No worries, right?

  104. @rbelyell

    we need to return to the past when these drugs were both more limited and spread out over a much greater period. would that really hurt anyone? it didnt in the ’50’s or 60’s! then we could see if there was a concomitant decrease in autism. hey, isnt that how ’scientists’ draw conclusions?

    In your look at things, you failed to account for confounding variables, such as increased awareness, changes in diagnostic criteria, and improved diagnostic tools and training, as well as ignoring recent controlled studies which have examined autism rates among vaccinated vs. unvaccinated, MMR vs. no-MMR and thimerosal vs. no-thimerosal populations, all of which have found no correlation.

    As to going back to limited vaccines and spread-out schedule, limiting the vaccines received would, depending on which vaccines you chose to exclude (and which ones would you exclude?), lead to a resurgence in incidence of preventable diseases. As for spreading out the schedule, this would increase vulnerability to infection, as many vaccines require multiple doses before the body develops immunity. Already, the schedule dictates a minimum amount of time between doses of vaccines. What would be your proposed schedule, then? If you propose breaking out combo vaccines into single jabs, you are then increasing the number of jabs a kid receives, as well as potentially significantly increasing exposure to adjuvants in the vaccines.

    While logic is all well and good for arriving at legal conclusions, science actually needs to test the conclusion against the evidence, carefully controlling for bias and confounding variables.

  105. Robert Carnegie

    Maybe Jim Carrey will repent, and then you should consider forgiving him. I mean, what if he’s cast as Doctor Who? You’ll have a serious problem.

    If my girlfriend was, was, well, you know, I don’t know what I’d do. I hope I’d behave rationally and ethically, but, well, no wonder.

    Now apparently she is -making- him gain fifty pounds weight for a film role. That could be either “no other woman will want you any more” or “best girlfriend ever”, what do you think??? Even with the autism stuff. But no. No, it’s wrong.

    (And, maybe not in fact her idea.)

  106. Todd W,
    I don’t usually invite mental cases into my home but for you, I’ll make an exception. I have the proof that vaccines cause autism in my house. His name is Sam and he’s a twelve year old who used to be a walking zombie. When I removed the mercury from his brain, he slowly became human again. You see, he was human as a baby too, before thimerosal mangled his brain.

    Now, he can do all sorts of things that normal children do. I have videos to show you what he used to be like, brain dead to the world around him. Now, I could identify you as one of the pieces of feces who wants to keep him autistic and he might just punch you in the mouth. So, why don’t you call and arrange a meeting. My number’s on the blog in a letter that I sent to FBI asking those imbeciles to arrest the criminals who poisoned our kids. If I don’t answer, just leave the message that a mental case called.

  107. Rift

    If he is cast as Doctor Who we will not have a serious problem, we’ll stop watching Doctor Who.

    (Would do so even if it wasn’t for his pro-disease stance, and i’ve been watching Dr. Who since 1978, when it first hit the states, and I assure you a bigger fan then Dr. Plait)

  108. @ rbelyell

    > i am not a scientist; i am an attorney. i posit that one does not have
    > to be a ’scientist’ to look at a set of facts and draw reasonable inferences.

    I will accept this statement; moreover, I would posit that being a ‘scientist’ is less about a self- or externally-applied label and more about the thought process. Anyone who observes, reasons, theories, experiments, and confirms *is* a scientist. One must be careful, however, to doggedly follow the thought process past the inference stage.

    > the conclusion i, as a non-scientist, draw is that there may well be a
    > link between immunization and autism caused by the sheer
    > number given in a compressed time period

    This is a *theory*, sir. This is the first step in scientific analysis. Observing the world and noticing correlations is often how scientists come up with theories. The next step, however, is to find evidence to support your theory. If you can’t find any but continue to argue that your theory is still valid, then what you have done is what Mr. Carrey did in his op-ed piece, you have committed the fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc.

    If you read any of the linked information on this thread, you will see why this is a fallacy; why this evidence is not present, and in fact that there is a large volume of null hypothesis evidence, which goes one step farther.

    > what i do advocate is taking a logical look at the tiny, helpless bodies
    > of infants and drawing a conclusion that perhaps they simply cannot
    > tolerate this extreme level of medication over such a short period.

    Again, this is a reasonable theory (minus the “tiny, helpless” bits), *supposing that your categorization of the dosage as “extreme” is valid*. Here, however, there are lots of reasons to assume that the dosage is not in fact extreme (again, check the links). There is no current hypothesis that explains or illustrates a mechanism wherein the dosage qualifies as “extreme”. The suspension ingredients that are touted as “possibly harmful” are either not present or are present in levels that are much, much lower than the environment (again, follow the links).

  109. @debora

    i am amazed that the people pro vaccine never looked at where the money trail leads to pro vax.

    Money trail…let’s see. There are independent investigators who have no financial ties to manufacturers, either inside the U.S. or elsewhere around the world, who have come to the conclusion that vaccines do not cause autism. And speaking of the money trail, let’s talk about Andrew Wakefield (see my first post). No money biasing him at all, eh? And just take a moment to think about what would happen if we stopped vaccinating and the diseases came back. The incidence of disease would shoot up, with more people requiring more medicines to treat the diseases. More medicines means more profits for drug manufacturers and physicians, no? So reductions in vaccination would be of more benefit to manufacturers than continued, robust vaccination schedules.

    and the cdc director, that was pro vaccine was fired, not for vaccines, but allowing melamine to be in baby formulas, thank you china. the same melamine that killed thousands of pets, when melamine was added to pet food.
    how you say? melamine destroys the kidneys, and can cause death.
    and i applaud the person who commented on monsanto, a few years back they were fined for their practices.

    Strawman argument.

    measles epidemics are published on 3rd world countries anyways.

    Let’s see, there was a measles epidemic in Germany in 2006. I’d venture to say that Germany is not a third world country. In that instance, approx. 86% of the individuals were not vaccinated, including two babies who died from measles-induced encephalitis. See my first post in this thread for a link to that data. Then there was the measles outbreak in California. Oh, and increased measles epidemics in the U.K. As for polio, those cases are mainly from third world countries because vaccines have pretty much eliminated it from the U.S. and Europe.

    i now work with children with autism and learning disorders, and success of removing symptoms was 100% with diets , changes in regular lifestyles and chelation.

    Where have you published your results? If you have such success in true cases of autism, that would be a major breakthrough in autism research.

    and btw chelation is acknowledged and approved by the u.s. govt when someone has mercury toxicity.

    Yes, chelation is approved for treatment of heavy metal toxicity, but the person must be carefully examined and diagnosed as having elevated levels of heavy metals before such a treatment is administered. A diagnosis of autism is insufficient.

    new vaccien gardasil, so far 33 deaths and thousands of paralysis or guileenes barre

    As I understand it, there was nothing substantive to link Gardasil to any deaths. Can you please provide a citation to support your claim?

  110. Torbjörn Larsson, OM

    I for one will never watch another Jim Carrey movie again, ever.

    Yes, and no loss, The Truman Show is the only one where he is memorable.

    I have to start listing those no-see actor cranks:

    Anti-vax crank:
    – Jim Carrey

    Scientology crank:
    – Tom Cruise
    – John Travolta

    Apologist cranks:
    – Mel Gibson
    – Will Smith

    …, um, who did I miss?

  111. Rift

    Must… Not…. Type…. Ad Hominem.. Attack…

    Mr. John Best, please take a statistics class, one sample is meaningless and is simply an anecdote, not proof. Besides, as i told Debora, if you can cure autism, why not have your son vaccinated?

    Can you cure the pock marks on my face too and my friend’s blindness, and bring my dead cousins back to life?

    Phil, can we please have some moderation here, things are getting very ugly.

  112. Gonzo

    I am with you on the boycott of the movies. I tell everyone that will listen. This one is the last straw on HuffPo. I’m done reading that site.

  113. @John Best

    First off, cool it. There’s no need for insults.

    While I feel for you and your situation, one case does not scientific evidence make. I cannot comment on your particular case, because I do not know all of the specific details, but I would venture to say that there is probably at least one variable involved of which you are not aware (e.g., genetics, other environmental factors, etc.).

    Further, as I mentioned in my first post, despite lots and lots of well-controlled studies, no link has been found between vaccines and autism. However, if you know of some other data, please present it. Just make sure that it is more than just an anecdote. I can point you to anecdotes from parents of children with autism who are just as sure that vaccines did not cause it.

  114. @John Best

    When I removed the mercury from his brain

    Quick question about this. What type of mercury was removed?

  115. Todd,
    The kind that mangled his brain.

  116. @John Best

    I mean what mercury compound was it? Pure mercury?

  117. Todd,
    I can identify parents all over the country by name who can show you the same evidence. I doubt many of them would want mental cases in their homes though.

    You can continue disingenuous argument techniques that ask us to look at the wrong evidence and ask misdirectional questions but, to establish the truth, you have to look at the cured children. No jury could disagree with that evidence.

  118. Todd,
    I’m not a scientist. I just followed the guidance of honest scientists who told me how to remove the mercury. I understand that it is ethyl while in the vaccine and gets transformed into something else, what, I can’t recall and don’t care…as long as it’s gone.

  119. MrMud

    Through the wonders of the internets you can watch all his movies and never pay a single dime, it is called piracy!

  120. to rift,
    am sorry you have pockmarks on your face
    but your cousins, did not just die of childhood diseases
    i grew up in the 60s , and noone died of child illnesses then or in the 70s…….
    what causes death is combination of bacterial infection and other complications ie : other illnesses and i will not say poor parenting in your case, since i dont know you.
    but most parents ignore the high fevers that do cause death inevitably, but that is due to lack of giving antibiotics, because that is wher some complications that arise. for that matter many die of the flu, and no flu shots do not work, the govt admitted 75% failure on getting right virus in the vaccine.

    BUT to say you rather have autism, most with autism do not succeed and many are institutionalized. these kids i have observed focus on only one thing, and lack communication skills. and their parents are up with them 24/7.
    omg with millions with autism, come retirement, who is going to pay for their medcial care , never mind most dont have great paying jobs.
    lets think this through before 1 in 100, 000 had autism in 60s and 70s/
    now, millions
    btw i had measles and chickenpox, had 3 scars used some herbal cream and poof they were gone, nad our doctor did housecalls. only complication was fever which broke, because i had good parents. all my friends, 66 cousins , brother and sister , friends we all survived.

  121. @John Best

    I can identify parents all over the country by name who can show you the same evidence.

    Again, I am not asking for anecdotes. That is not science. Further, there is no way to control for anything in such an approach, meaning that any conclusion (either for or against vaccines) is meaningless.

    You can continue disingenuous argument techniques that ask us to look at the wrong evidence

    What wrong evidence? Can you point to where the evidence is incorrect? Please be specific, and if possible include links or citations.

    No jury could disagree with that evidence.

    Actually, they could. But the opinion of a jury doesn’t matter where science is concerned. What matters is what the actual evidence shows, not what parents say. Like I said, for every person you bring up with a story that vaccines caused their kid’s autism, I could bring up a parent who would contradict them.

    So, let me ask you this. Would you say that we should stop vaccinating kids? If so, why would you advocate exposing people to significantly more risk of serious injury and death from the diseases that would make a comeback? If not, then what do you propose?

  122. to todd,

    85% of pediatricians income is from vaccines!
    and the veterinaryf ield the same.
    and most doctor annual visits, except for the doctors that are savvy, and use other modalities, and yes they have md behind their names.
    give me complementary/ alternative medicine that has been around over 4000 yrs vs allopathic medicine that has been around for 130 yrs.

    and yes most doctors that are pro vaccines get millions.
    look at mass general, john hopkins nad mayo clinic to name a few.

  123. @debora

    i grew up in the 60s , and noone died of child illnesses then or in the 70s

    Citation, please. The CDC would seem to disagree with you.

    due to lack of giving antibiotics

    Many of the illnesses that are prevented by vaccines are viral, not bacterial. Therefore, antibiotics would do nothing except contribute to antibiotic-resistant bacteria, like MRSA. If you have evidence to show that these illnesses are caused by bacteria, rather than vaccines, please provide a link or citation.

    for that matter many die of the flu, and no flu shots do not work, the govt admitted 75% failure on getting right virus in the vaccine.

    Yes, many die of the flu. Flu shots do work for the strains for which they are prepared. However, the virus mutates extremely rapidly, so the vaccine is always a bit of a guessing game. On occasion, such as last year (or was it the year before), they guessed wrong on which strain would be most prevalent. More often, they get the dominant strains. But again, flu mutates very rapidly, so while the vaccine may prevent most strains, you may still be susceptible to rarer strains.

    btw i had measles and chickenpox, had 3 scars used some herbal cream and poof they were gone, nad our doctor did housecalls. only complication was fever which broke, because i had good parents. all my friends, 66 cousins , brother and sister , friends we all survived.

    Glad to hear that you and your family came through all right. Lots of people didn’t. Some died (again, see the 2006 case in Germany), and many others lived, but with serious injuries from the diseases (deafness, sterility, blindness, etc.).

  124. @debora

    85% of pediatricians income is from vaccines!

    Citation please.

    complementary/ alternative medicine that has been around over 4000 yrs vs allopathic medicine that has been around for 130 yrs

    Complementary/alternative medicine is only alternative until it has evidence to back it up. Personally, I’ll take the stuff that has actual evidence, rather stuff that has no properly controlled study showing it actually does anything beyond placebo. But, that’s just me. I like to actually know that what I’m receiving actually does something, not to mention be aware of what side effects to expect.

  125. strawman

    there are official reports, they also say 25-40% are mercury sensitive.
    and the prime minister of indonesia is questioning gardasil
    gardasil did not have a 12 yrs human study, it was pushed through in 2 years. and yes 33 young girls and women have died per year on average and numerous reports of paralysis, if you watch the gardasi commercials is why warning of gullaine barre syndrome which is paralysis.
    mercury toxicity you say? i have plenty of evidence, i had a reading of 14 ppm and was monitored for 18 months, good news am down to comfortable level that average american has which is 1.5-2. tg for dmsa and edta.
    the cause?
    easy// flu shots, gamma globulin shots every year as hospital worker and vaccines in the us army. throw 10 fillings that were white changed to silver fillings 50% mercury there. had fillings removed and great improvements within 3 months.

  126. @debora

    look at mass general, john hopkins nad mayo clinic to name a few.

    What about them? Again, provide citations. You talk big, but you have absolutely nothing to back up any of what you say.

  127. tood the 85% vaccines schedule is a fact check out the aap site and the ama as well

  128. @John Best: If you can ID parents all over the country that can produce this evidence, the put or shut up. If there are so many people who can produce these results why are they not screaming it from the rooftops for the doctors and parents to hear?

    @rift: Don’t ask Phil to moderate because you don’t agree with what someone is saying. That’s what makes this blog superior those on AoA, HuffPo, etc. Phil doesn’t just moderate away dissenting opinion.

  129. Kris

    I love Jim and will watch his movies even more now. Someone has to tell the truth and buddy you are not. Unvaccinated kids are so much healhier than vaccinated kids. You are just plain ignorant and brainwashed. I am glad we live in a free country. Stop letting fear cloud your judgement “sheeple”

  130. @debora

    Can you provide a link? You seem to know where it is, so it would save everyone a lot of time if you can direct us to the specific place you found that information.

  131. @drksky

    I believe the reason Rift was asking for some moderation was due to John Best’s violation of Phil’s commenting policy, rather than the substance of his comments.

  132. todd
    just remember over 50% of americans use complementary /alterative medicine
    and yes studies have been proven, why do you think more nad more doctors are studyign alternative medicne? and my hmo pay for them now too.
    since my bout with mercury tocicity, and chelation , have had no serious illnesses or flus since 2001.
    i have docotors nad nuses seeking me out on my medicla equipment and herb advice now

  133. ok todd i share john best’s beliefs, but i will not insult.
    which sites would you like me to provide here?
    i have hundreds , literally

  134. HCN

    Todd, John Best is one of only two people banned at Orac’s blog. You can see why.

    Debora, your grasp of basic statistics sucks as bad as your grammar, spelling and punctuation. The reason that people who had measles and are now fine is because they were not the one in a thousand who became blind, deaf, paralyzed or died. Also, it helps if you give actual data and evidence, you are basically arguing through blatant assertion.

    And you are liar when you say “i grew up in the 60s , and noone died of child illnesses then or in the 70s…….” — just because you were shielded from the tragedies does not mean they did not happen. The CDC Pink Book has an appendix G with lots of statistics on cases and deaths. It is a pdf image file so I had to type in the numbers (you can find it, links send comments to be moderated). Here are some of the data for measles:
    Disease: Measles in the USA
    Year__Cases___Deaths
    1961__423,919_434
    1962__481,530_408
    1963__385,156_364
    (^^ first vaccine licensed)
    1964__458,083_421
    1965__261,905_276
    1966__204,136_261
    1967___62,705__81
    1968___22,231__24
    1969___25,826__41
    1970___47,351__89
    1971___75,290__90
    (^^^ MMR licensed)
    1972___32,275__24
    1973___26,690__23
    1974___22,690__20
    1975___24,374__20
    1976___41,126__12
    1977___57,245__15
    1978___26,871__11
    (^^^ Measles Elimination Program started)
    1979___13,597___6
    1980___13,506__11
    1981____2,124___2

    Pertussis still kills over a dozen American babies every year.

    Anyway, about the silly “money trail”… Which makes more money for “Big Pharma”: selling vaccines or by providing supplies and medication to hospitals for those who have been hospitalized due to pertussis, measles, mumps, Hib, etc? Be sure to provide real actual factual evidence of the type I can find in my local medical school library. Something like this:
    Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005 Dec;159(12):1136-44.
    Economic evaluation of the 7-vaccine routine childhood immunization schedule in the United States, 2001.
    “RESULTS: Routine childhood immunization with the 7 vaccines was cost saving from the direct cost and societal perspectives, with net savings of 9.9 billion dollars and 43.3 billion dollars, respectively. Without routine vaccination, direct and societal costs of diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, H influenzae type b, poliomyelitis, measles, mumps, rubella, congenital rubella syndrome, hepatitis B, and varicella would be 12.3 billion dollars and 46.6 billion dollars, respectively. Direct and societal costs for the vaccination program were an estimated 2.3 billion dollars and 2.8 billion dollars, respectively. Direct and societal benefit-cost ratios for routine childhood vaccination were 5.3 and 16.5, respectively. CONCLUSION: Regardless of the perspective, the current routine childhood immunization schedule results in substantial cost savings.”

    Also note I am a parent of a disabled child which may or may not be due to a history of seizures. He has actually hospitalized several times, including once while suffering from what is now a vaccine preventable disease. Trust me, hospitals are very expensive.

  135. So, John, I should be persecuted for willfully harming my children? (when will someone take the bait for crying out loud? I’ve been clear enough in my comments but Elain did not).

  136. HCN

    Now for the links alluded to in my main post:

    The economic study:
    http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/159/12/1136

    The California experience with the 1990 measles epidemic:
    http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=8855680

    Another study on the impact of medical interventions on mental retardation, it notes the effect of measles, Hib an rubella:
    http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/160/3/302

    The CDC Pink Book:
    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/default.htm

    And the Appendix G:
    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/appdx-full-g.pdf
    Just the cases and deaths:
    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/G/cases&deaths.pdf

  137. Todd,
    Here’s a nice study from Mass. General and Harvard that I’ve exposed as fraudulent. Would you care to discuss it and how it relates to autism?
    http://hatingautism.blogspot.com/2008/10/harvard-finds-cause-of-alzheimers.html

  138. hcn
    am sorry, but i have residual nerve damage from mercury toxicityand a train accidnet which i survived// and it stayed in my inner ear with concrete absolute proof and evidence from neurologist as well as my hands are arthritic because of it documented by my pcp and your comments are cruel at best

  139. Spunk-Monkey

    Debora, Dona, Elaine, et all… if all you are going to do is repeat the same mis-represented memes that have been factually discredited over and over (and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over) again, please just save us your time and our annoyance. It appears your focus on trying to win an already lost argument is more important to you than children’s lives. And now your arguments are just getting goofy.

    Speaking for myself, I respectfully request you chase rainbows elsewhere. If you have some actual factual data to support the conspiracy you allege, we’re all thankful if you would share it. Otherwise, this argument simply boils down to:

    1. Mountains of verifiable empirical data accumulated by years of verifiable
    and peer-reviewed cross-disciplinary research from around the globe
    which is constantly reviewed and added upon for continual refinement

    versus:

    2. Implausible mechanism(s) backed up by your pleas of “but it’s gotta be bad,
    i just KNOWS it!”

    I don’t want to be insulting, but you ARE looking like dumbasses. And with lives of children at stake, cruel dumbasses. Just sayin’.

  140. @debora
    Ok, where’s your evidence that because of gardasil “33 young girls and women have died per year on average and numerous reports of paralysis”. As has been asked repeatedly, citation please?

  141. and i do not trust the cdc, when employed, had to do quality control at laboratories i worked at, and many errors and cross contamination of reagents that they used , and sent to every lab in the us
    suggest instead of the cdc , go to vaersand who

  142. spunk monkey is what you state is such profound evidence , then explain why some autistic children have been cured of almost all symptomology?
    and show me it please?

    if cdc or nih would not trust it

  143. catie

    Every individual is entitled to their opinion. Writing this story & commenting on it is opinion. Jenny McCarthy is definately entitled to opinion, having witnessed her son’s regression. However, you say celebrities aren’t entitled to voice their opinion b/c they’ve got no ‘credible’ understanding of modern medicine? Well gee, I do believe that means J Lo & Amanda Peet better shutup, Rosalynn Carter as well. They’re in the same boat you’re describing but on the other side. You wouldn’t pick sides on this issue now, would you?

  144. Mark Hansen

    There you go, Rift. Debora’s just diagnosed why your cousins died. Bad parenting. They didn’t give them enough antibiotics for viral diseases apparently.

    Debora, you must have started working when you were 3. How did you become either a teacher or a microbiologist at 3?

  145. @debora

    I appreciate your not stating outright that you think I’m a mental case. Much obliged.

    which sites would you like me to provide here?

    Please provide citations for the following (and eliminate the http and www from the beginning of any web sites you post so you don’t get hung up in moderation):

    * In the ’60s and ’70s, not a single person died from measles, mumps, rubella or any of the other vaccine-preventable diseases.
    * 85% of pediatricians income is from vaccines! (and also show that, if this is true, that income has, in fact, had an impact on their support of vaccinations, as opposed to the health benefits derived from vaccines)
    * That you have removed 100% of the symptoms of autism in children with a sound, accurate diagnosis of autism. (a peer-reviewed article would be good)

    Also, since you seem to think that having vaccines is worse than not having them, please provide citations that show that the real risk of injury from vaccines outweighs both the benefits of the vaccines and the risks of not vaccinating.

  146. Mike C.

    Still hope someone would answer me, A lot of info flowing back and forth each asking each other for citations and proof.

    Again I will ask because we are all taking about science here, were is the research to show effectiveness of vaccines, actually immunity through randomly controlled trials? Would that not be the proof? I have been unable to locate any through pubmed search and my sister in law Phd at a Denver University??

  147. @debora

    Oh yeah, almost forgot, but Shane mentioned it. Controlled studies showing a link between Gardasil and death.

    As to not trusting the CDC, FDA or NIH, who would you trust? Regulatory agencies from other countries? Independent researchers from the US or any other country?

  148. @debora

    then explain why some autistic children have been cured of almost all symptomology?

    First, it depends on their diagnosis and what you mean by “cured”. And can you provide a citation to support your claim. Note, evidence must be more than just an anecdote. Properly controlled clinical trials would be a good start. Replication of those clinical trials would be even better.

  149. i did not start at 3, lol mark
    i am 52 years old, married have 2 homes , and am employed as a teaching consultant and work as child advocate
    with 1 degree in medical techology and lab medicine from baylor
    and 1 degree in business with psych minor from leslye university (harvard) affiliated program.
    teacher certification was through us army in 1977 ,( been teaching 29 yrs.)
    lab microbiologist in us army 4 yrs active 6 reserves
    but ty for comment, when i have to do ieps or meetings for my special ed kids , most directors , principals and superintendants in schools i need to meet, think i am 34 yrs old

  150. Spunk-Monkey

    Debora, I have no proof to show you about some claims of curing autistic children… i was merely asking you to provide facts about exactly these kinds of claims. The burden of evidence is on those who bring something implausible to the discussion. Otherwise, your position is strikingly similar to, ” Monkeys are flying out of my butt; prove to me they’re not!”

    And please, don’t bother addressing me unless you are providing some evidence or something verifiable. I’m sure the rest goes for all the others here who are calling for sources.

  151. @debora

    One more thing, what financial stakes do you have in the outcome of the issue of vaccines-autism. I.e., if vaccines are, indeed, found to (somehow) cause autism, what financial gains can you expect to make (e.g., through treating with chelation, consulting on diet changes, etc.)? In the interests of full disclosure, I have no ties, financial or otherwise, to any vaccine manufacturer, pharmacy or physician.

  152. Mark Hansen

    It’s just that you said you were a microbiologist for 12 years, and a teacher for 29. Adds up to 41 years assuming no breaks.

  153. todd, the cdc staff ( some of them) currently are sitting on boards for most of the drug companies.
    i trust my friends that are medical doctors, i trust my professors from brooke army medical at ft sam
    at one time i trusted the nih, which is attached next door to walter reed
    but you saw what happened to good ole walter reed.
    i trust my advisers, that i work with from the va when i tutor those coming back from iraq and afghanistan.
    and i trust who the world health organization that says the us is around 43rd in quality of medicine , the us is behind all of europe, canada austalia , even cuba sighs

  154. todd,
    i have no ties to any anti vax or any medical facilities
    but i always will give referrals to doctors, medical caregivers, social workers or whatever is needed.
    i do my child advocacy and medical advocacy for free always

  155. @debora

    If you trust WHO, then I’m surprised you have such a beef with vaccines, as they kinda promote vaccinations as a way to fight infectious diseases and all around think they’re a pretty good idea. They also appear to be of the opinion that vaccines do not cause autism. Here’s a sample of info you can find on their web site: who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/mmr/mmr_autism/en/ (add www to the beginning)

  156. PaulW

    @ debora

    and i trust who the world health organization ….

    Wait, what? The WHO? The ones who say we should use Vaccines?

    Link: who.int/topics/immunization/en/

  157. @debora

    Do you ever get any payments or gifts in return for your referrals or advocacy?

  158. mark
    the 12 and 29 will add up
    if you figure i worked 2 jobs for 12 years simultaneously
    first and foremost i was a teacher in all my carrers
    1. lab microbiologist med tech on call for 7 yrs while reservist working at the va for 10
    2. teacher in us army 10 yrs
    post army teacher in ma, ri, me now tx since 1982

  159. @debora

    You’re in Texas? Are you affiliated at all with Thoughtful House?

  160. One wonders how these people are able to convince anyone of anything. The profound ignorance on display is staggering. It is even worse when you follow any links provided by these people to the sources of their “data”. Perhaps it isn’t surprising that they defend the McCarthys and a Careys of the world so vehemently because they are the source of their only “credibility”. Perhaps they convince desperate parents looking for answers or a reason to blame something, anything, because “we don’t know” won’t cut it for no other reason than misery loves company.

    I’m glad debora mentioned the WHO. Here is a good start on what the WHO position on immunisation is…
    http://www.who.int/immunization_delivery/vaccines/en/index.html

  161. i trust who on the united states failing medical system
    remember the us govt controled vaccines nad started mass production.
    then let companies take over in the late 60s
    all vaccines are pushed thru the rockefeller foundation, bill and melinda gates (great tax write off) to name a few
    the charities i fund are animals, st judes and the homeless
    so i steer clear of any affiliate with vaccines

  162. todd i sent you several sites?
    why are they not in forum?

  163. @debora

    Why do you trust WHO on the “failing medical system” but not on vaccines? Just because it doesn’t agree with your opinion?

    Oh, and still waiting on those links and citations.

  164. @debora

    If you failed to remove the “http” and “www”, then they probably went into moderation and should show up in a bit.

  165. You have to remember though that the WHO is part of the UN and the UN are part of the New World Order and that is where the black helicopters come from.

  166. todd ,sorry if i failed to remove the httpor www
    because i was always told to leave them on so everyone can access the sites

  167. @debora

    No worries. Leaving them on makes them clickable, but then your comment gets held up in moderation. Removing them means people need to cut and paste the address into their browser.

    Quick bit of info on Gardasil. I know you say you do not trust the FDA or CDC, but here’s what FDA has to say about the reports of serious AEs from Gardasil:

    Concerns have been raised about reports of deaths occurring in individuals after receiving Gardasil. As of June 30, 2008, 20 deaths had been reported to VAERS. There was not a common pattern to the deaths that would suggest they were caused by the vaccine. In cases where autopsy, death certificate and medical records were available, the cause of death was explained by factors other than the vaccine.

    Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GBS) has also been reported in individuals following vaccination with Gardasil. GBS is a rare neurological disorder that causes muscle weakness. It occurs spontaneously in unvaccinated individuals after a variety of specific infections. FDA and CDC have reviewed the reports of GBS that have been submitted to VAERS. To date, there is no evidence that Gardasil has increased the rate of GBS above that expected in the population. While we continue to carefully analyze all reports of GBS submitted to VAERS, the data do not currently suggest an association between Gardasil and GBS.

    (Source: fda.gov/cber/safety/gardasil071408.htm)

  168. Lawrence

    Wow – just a bit of the old “crazy” in here today. Didn’t take long.

    As the father of an 18 month old, we are scheduling his next appointment which will include the proscribed spectrum of vaccine updates. I’ve seen what some of these childhood diseases can do – sterility, blindness, and death. These are facts people – Mumps, Measles, Rubella & Chicken Pox can blind, sterilize, scar & kill – there is no question about that.

    There is NO link between vaccines and autism. Ancedotal evidence is not data, not science, and doesn’t stand up to any type of scrutiny. For those who claim massive amounts of mercury in their children – since when did Mercury become self-sustaining? How on earth does it replicate inside the body? Seriously, get down off the ledge, read the actual science (as Todd has kindly included in the links above), and make a true informed decision for your child.

    I find it horrible to think that it will take a major epidemic & children dying of easily preventable diseases to make people wake up and take notice what these anti-vaccer/pro-disease people are doing.

    We’ve been coddled by the absence of these diseases – there was a time when 50% of children would die before the age of 5 in this country. This still happens in many parts of the world – due to a lot of different reasons, but disease has played a big part in that. Take your rejection of medical science and go live in the woods – see how long you last – the first time you get a cut that turns into Lockjaw or Tetnus, you’re go running, screaming for a real doctor.

  169. Elaine McKillop

    irst Todd, you are insipid to define Jim Carrey’s position as pro disease / anti vaccine. The disease that you are suffering from that Mr. Carrey is trying to eradicate is ignorance, brain washing, and blind trust in establishments that have forsaken the people for financial interest and political agendas that have a blatant disregard for innocent life. Orwell envisioned a dystopian society that was controlled by a box that could watch your every movement; little did he know that it was only necessary for the populations to watch the box. You Todd have had your daily dose of disinformation and now you regurgitate, even writing things down in your silly little propaganda post, taking your part in controlling the wayward sheep that just may break out of the pen and think for themselves. It is pathetic Todd, just how diseased you are.

    About you bedfellow comment, I certainly do not use your overworked defenses for a corrupt system; I can back any claim I make with facts. Please just google “corruption” FDA, look into how many executives including attorneys have moved back and forth from working for pharmaceutical companies to working for government agencies that oversee their previous bosses. Look at the NIH and how it partners with pharmaceutical companies to develop vaccines. Please do not lecture me on the courts and the law, I have a law degree.

    Here are some corrections for you Todd.
    Andrew Wakefield stands behind his study, just as Galileo stood by his position that the Earth revolved around the Sun. Throughout history people have been persecuted for going against the establishment. Dr. David Healy is another doctor who has faced the wrath of the Pharmaceutical Cartel when he testified about the effects of SSRI’s in people who committed violent acts and suicides. There is a pattern of hijacking science. Look at what Senator Grassley recently discovered in congressional hearings. Dr. Joseph Biederman, the opinion leader in the area of child psychiatry was caught taking 1.5 million dollars from pharmaceutical companies and promising them positive results in their studies he was conducting. Dr. Biederman is to psychiatry what Dr. Offit is for vaccines, a profiteer that does not mind dead babies in their wake.
    Do not really believe that the Propagandist Brian Deer has any credibility? I will not waste my time on him.

    Thimerosal: Your claim that ethyl mercury is eliminated from the body in “a few days to about a week is false. It is not appropriate to assume as in the Pichichero ME, Gentile A. Giglio N. et al. Mercury Levels in Newborns and Infants after receipt of thimerosal containing vaccines. Pediatrics 2008; 121(2):e208-14 that removal of mercury from the blood equates to removal of mercury from the body. Other studies have showed that although blood mercury reduced by 75% in about 6 hours, that the mercury level in the brain, liver and kidneys increased two to threefold. Keep in mind that you should not underestimate the toxicity of ethyl mercury. In 1977 the multiple application of unquantified amounts of antiseptic levels of Thimerosal to the skin of thirteen babies with neonatal umbilical cord complications resulting in the death of 10 of the infants. When I have time to get back I will dismantlethe rest of your rubbish.

  170. todd, until my sites come in as posted
    i have a question for all of you?
    going to talk off topic on this matter
    but , did anyone notice that in the us that big pharma sells the most anti depressnats, anti psycotic, pain killers, upper gi meds and cholesterol drugs world wide?
    and diagnoses are things like fibromyalgia, insomnia, forgetfullness, diabetes type 2,hypothyroidism , migraines, allergies , ashtma, ms and increases in als, alcoholism 1/3 drug addictions are at all time high?
    till documents come in
    suggest look up dr. hal huggins on mercury amalgams*
    david kirby from the huffington press * for starters
    most illnesses trace back to heavy metal tocicity
    the other big thing is lyme disease, but lyme and mercury coincide together at times due to mercury ‘s attraction to bacteria

  171. @Todd W
    John Best was right about one thing. You must be a mental case. No sane person can be as patient as you seem to be. debora and others should be grateful they’re dealing with you. Keep up the good work.

  172. Lawrence

    And as a side note, I have friends that work with Autistic children – working with them from first diagnosis all the way through school. Even they don’t believe autism is caused by vaccines – between them, the consensus is better disagnosis of the spectrum of disorders, which weren’t caught before, genetics, and possibly environmental factors.

  173. well lawrence ,
    i guess the statistics of almsot 50% autism diagnoses is better.
    tried to tell you that mercury is not the only bad ingredient in the mix. altho ethyl mercuty inside the mouth converts to methyl mercury or vapors, once in the system it gets into the myelinsheath (nervous system and brain)stores in fat cells and breaks down mitochondria .
    aluminum in any form , has been linked to dementia (alzheimers)

    kind of more scarey that the trend is moving , where more parents home school or take religious exemptions, those families, which i know personallt hardly ever get sick but maybe a cold every 2 yrs

  174. @Elaine McKillop

    Again, no need for insults. Sheesh! What is it with anti-vax people! And I stand by my pro-disease comment, because advocating against vaccines is the same as advocating for a return of diseases.

    Regarding Wakefield. I am quite aware that he stands by his study. He’s got a pretty good following and plays the martyr card quite a lot. The facts remain that his samples were contaminated, he fudged data to match his conclusions, 11 of the 12 children in his study were involved in litigation by the same lawyer that was paying him to be a consultant. The calls to “follow the money” can be applied to Wakefield, too. Not only did he not disclose that money from the lawyer, he also did not disclose his financial interests in his patent for an alternative to the MMR. Then there was the fact that when someone else tried to replicate his study, they did not get anywhere near the same results. So, yes, I question Wakefield’s study and his conclusions, because there’s a lot that was wrong.

    Any citations you provide, I will try to take a look at when I have a chance. I appreciate you providing them. So, please, include citations for the studies about the increase of mercury in the brain, as well as the 1977 case.

  175. elaine, thank you
    i see some sanity in here after all
    altho todd , says mental case
    my patience is due to my day off, finally
    but what scares me are those that discredit not only andrew wakefield, but anytime a doctor questions the validity of vaccines and presents a paper, the big pharma and their supporters prosecute or ostacize them.
    of course their finding are suddenly lost

  176. @Elaine McKillop
    In 1977 the multiple application of unquantified amounts of antiseptic levels of Thimerosal to the skin of thirteen babies with neonatal umbilical cord complications resulting in the death of 10 of the infants

    Well that quote was taken verbatim from a paper by one AJ Wakefield of Thoughtful House. Hardly subjective and many of the claims in the paper have been thoroughly debunked here and elsewhere.

  177. @Shane: I have often commented on the patience on Todd. He must be a saint to keep it up like he does.

  178. Lawrence

    @debora – I will admit, you are persistent. So, if vaccines are so bad & millions of doses are given out every year (including to adults who needs boosters) – how are any people healthy? Why aren’t all children autistic?

    My brother, sister, myself, my cousins, my nieces & nephews, friends & friends’s children have all been vaccinated – yet not a single one of us (out of hundreds of people) are autistc.

    Why?

  179. @debora

    Regarding the antidepressants and fibromyalgia, etc., there is a demand for such things. It’s the “quick fix” culture that the U.S. has. At least, that’s my impression. I’d have to do significantly more study than I have time for to come to any meaningful conclusion, though.

    As for David Kirby, I’ve read some of his HuffPo pieces, and he is just as guilty as all the rest for twisting and misinterpreting a lot of the info out there, for example, the Hannah Poling and Bailey Banks cases. And, if we want to play the “money corrupts” game, he can make quite a bit of money with his books claiming that there is a connection between vaccines and autism.

    As to mercury amalgam, I seem to recall that the connection was subsequently found to be unfounded, but I can’t remember where I heard that. I’ll need to look into it more before I make any definitive comments on it.

  180. @drksky
    People will start seeing images of Todd on toast.

  181. Lawrence

    I just realized something – in the interest of herd immunity – each and every child that isn’t vaccinated (because of parental concerns) should be purposely exposed (and then quarantined) to all of the diseases that they won’t be vaccinated for (measles, mumps, rubella, HepB, whooping cough, polio, etc).

    To be fair to everyone, this will keep the herd immunity going – plus is, truthfully, an all-natural way to make those children immune to further outbreaks of the disease.

    Simple solution, right?

  182. @Shane

    Thanks for the link to Wakefield’s paper. I’ll give it a read when I get a chance. Off to a meeting soon.

    And I certainly hope people don’t start seeing me on toast. Although, given that those people probably would have no clue what I look like, it’d be the same as seeing Jesus. ;)

    And again, regarding Wakefield. I do not call him to task because he is against vaccines (or at least the MMR). I call him to task because his study was seriously flawed and because he caused a lot of fear, reduced MMR vaccinations and, because of this, a lot more people contracted measles than would have otherwise.

  183. @Lawrence

    Yeah…I don’t see people going for that, though. And you’d need to figure out an exposure schedule. But then people would be clamoring that the schedule is too tight and should be spaced out.

  184. @Todd
    They’d know it was you on the toast the same way they know it is Jesus because they all know what he looked like. Right? ;-)

  185. Lawrence

    @Todd – well no chance of autism though, right?

    :)

  186. @Lawrence

    Hmm…death, deafness, blindness, paralysis, mental retardation yes. Autism, no. That is, if vaccines are the cause. You may be on to something.

  187. @Lawrence
    You’d still need some way of preserving the live diseases. Thimerosal perhaps?

  188. todd the number of deaths on gardasil was over 33 since 2008
    and noone knows the gbs stats since doctors dont necessarily report, as they should, but there were thousnads world wide.
    and the fact that over 300,000 medical problems arrive in the emergency rooms (just in meds) and over 125,000 unnecessary deaths occur in the united states, yearly. probalby means some of those medication issues could be vaccines.
    the emergency rooms do not have to report any, once patient is gone out of their hands, so no followups.
    but healthy women , young women that were cheerleaders, honor students and of course the incidents in argentina did not get press release.

  189. Lawrence

    @Todd & Shane – thanks, always been a “Outside of the Ballpark” thinker :p

  190. Lawrence

    @debora – once again, how do you explain why everyone who receives a vaccines (or a very high percentage) doesn’t get autism?

  191. wait, there is a fact for you
    in maine thefirst to be pround for 100% vaccinations
    they saw autism and learnign disorders go up by 500%
    now maine withdrew from being one of the first and proud to cautious.
    reson is 25-30% kids in all schools have asd
    was in bangor newspaper
    if my sites get approved ill send that one too

  192. @debora

    I provided my citation on Gardasil. Let’s have yours, thanks. And gotta run to a meeting, so I might not have a chance to post again today…

  193. Lawrence

    @debora – I’ll wait for the citations. So, please again explain why doesn’t everyone get autism from vaccines, if the same “bad” ingredients are in all of them?

  194. This blog is for the most part so underiformed and SO buying the crap doled out by tose old powers, it is disheartneing, to say the least. Anything too BIG is Doomed to fail and SHOULD NOT EXIST.
    That said, when Gates, Turner, and Buffet donate 30 BILLION plus, to de populate the world to lessen carbon footprints, and Gates & wife donate vaccines, telling pregnat Hatian women that it’s OK, and the pregnant woman spontaniously ABORTS[and lets not forget Gate’s underground “seed chamber”] then by golley if you don’t see the connectedness of vaccines and the economic reasons, not in the best interest of the child, then you might need to take off your rose colored glasses!
    If that doesn’t shore it up for you, youtube Getting Well the Militia Way, which is on Brasschecktv also, number 606.
    As to Mothers, they ususally know so much,about their child, but too often allow a professional to rule. Power to Moms. Ahe yes even their minds can get clouded from the r x drugs shoved at them
    There are on so blind as those who will not see, and yes I know some, and pray for their enlightment…..

    Sounds like a lot of bloggers here watch excessive amounts of TV and smoke, both which rot the brain.
    Suggestions: read or watch Alice In Wonderland, listen to White Rabbits by Gracie Slick, watch an old flick Valley of the Dolls, and something I watched last night The BUG, with Ashelle Judd. Warnings have been out there forever. It is your choice wheather you pay attention; or not.

    Then switch to the History or Discovery channel, and stay there.

    Parents why are you so defensive as to staying with the vaccines? No bad side affects yet with your child? Some as with the foods we eat take 30 years to adversely affect health, so the clock is still ticking hey?

    This whole blog smacks of a sand box mentality against Jim Carrey and that is sick.
    You are missing the point.

  195. Charles Boyer

    @Todd,

    Yes, people with seratonin reuptake issues can just wait and use talk therapy to work around their problems.

    Too bad our “quick fix” culture has kept a lot of them from destroying or taking their lives. Suicide and depression often go hand in hand and the disease often has a physiological basis.

    As for fibromyalgia, if you knew anyone who had that very real disease, you would understand what an eternity an hour is to someone in that level of blame.

    But by all means, blame the victim for being impatient and carry on.

  196. Dona=Poe. If not, I’m very frightened

  197. lawrence
    as i stated , 25-40% are sensitive thus a reaction destroys mitochondria is the 1st step.
    remmeber these vaccines are in batches, mercury is only one bad additive.
    so there are times they are inconsistent.
    what i find odd , everyone else has their sites go through using http or www.
    but in truth i have seen success , of so called “cure”
    parents with autistic children go to doctors that are specialists with autism, give a spcific diet, chelation and several supplements.
    i have sent 3 mothers to said dotors
    1 child had multiple seizures and diagnosed with adhd
    another child had autism a mild form ppd
    and the third child , speech delayed
    all went to the specialists
    after 2 years
    all 3 out of special ed
    all 3 kids are honor roll in school
    the speech impediments are gone
    cooordination and ey movements are almost 100%
    and i am proud to say i witness all 3 kids succeed

  198. Charles Boyer

    level of pain. my mistake.

  199. Rift

    Debora you are flat out LYING when you said no one died of childhood diseases in the 60s, 70s. Kids have died from those in the 80, 90s and NOW.

    This is not a personal attack, it’s an attack on your wrong assertions that no one dies of childhood diseases, and a silly belief in a vast conspiracy by the ‘Big Pharms’ when they would benefit more from rampant childhood diseases then stomping them out.

    Statistics don’t lie, people do. You have and are, Jenny McCartney and Jim Carry are. And you are ignoring the fact that thousands of unvaccinated kids have died in the past and came darn close to blaming it on poor parenting when poor parenting is NOT getting your kids vaccinated. Outbreaks are killing kids now because of pro-disease idiocy.

    And your assertion that no one died in the ’60s and ’70s from mumps, measles and chickenpox is not only wrong it is callous and INSULTING. You can’t dismiss the CDC statistics on deaths out of hand because you don’t ‘trust’ them.

    And if you have been a teacher for 30 years, why are your posts so hard to follow/understand?

    @drksky I asked for moderation because as Todd pointed out, violations of Phil’s own commenting policies were being violated, not because of the content of anyone’s post.

    But I will note that most of the insults are coming from Debora, Elaine, and John Best and directed at Todd W. who must be commended for not stooping to their childishness. I’m done with this thread, not because of it’s content, but because only the pro-vax people are offering anything new, and the insults from the pro-disease crowd are turning me off.

  200. Lawrence

    @debora – I’m not saying I don’t believe you. But, what studies have these “specialists” participated in? Peer review is there for a reason, so quacks don’t get out into the general public (of course, with the rise in water medicine, I mean “homeopathy” lots of quacks out there).

    20 – 40% of children aren’t being diagnosed with autism – even the current guestimate of 1 – 150 is a much smaller percentage & we don’t have any records of what it was before vaccinations become commonplace, because we didn’t understand what autism was at the time.

    So, if we stop giving vaccines to our children, what is your answer to measles, mumps, polio, etc?

  201. what i was bringing up, and lawrence stated everone is pefectly healthy after vaccines and boosters~~~~
    so everyone you know has no depression, insomnia , allergies, asthma diabetes, high bloood pressure, hypothyroidism, fibromyalgia, heart disease,
    obesity, alcohol issues , migraines , or ireggular menstrual for women, infertility or cancer? as adults
    and all the children , none have learning problems? obesity? allergies?
    then you are the lucky ones, how many people are we talking, lawrence?

  202. todd
    i am not with thoughful house
    in texas now 5 years, am a boston girl

  203. todd may i have permission to get these links through
    and i have never insulted you.
    only thing i agreed with john best is he cured his 12 yr old son.

    also note before vaccines went national, almsot all those said diseases were eradicated
    furthermore gardasil only goes after one form of said virus, that isolate is not proven, and only affects 1000 ppl per year? maybe, facts arent in yet, not proven.
    prevention for cervical cancer is still annual ob/gyn visit and pap smear.

    when i viewed the pink book, were talking 200-400 people out of millions in the 60s and 70s
    well if 1 in 60 have autism or worse out of 300 million population in the usa, what does that mean to us as a nation?

  204. Birgit Calhoun

    Debora, thanks for trying to stand up against all this …! Until some real studies are being done, it would be worthwhile to withhold all the certainty so many of you display. You might all have egg on your faces when all is said and done. It doesn’t seem to require a lot of depth to preach to the choir. Do may of you belong to the flat earth society?

  205. here is areport from cbs news, when asked which studies were done on vaccines and autism, their spokesperson could not give a credible study
    here is the link

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/25/cbsnews_investigates/main4296175.shtml.

  206. Lawrence

    @debora – time and time again, it has been pointed out on this blog that no one is saying vaccines are 100% safe or 100% effective. There can be side-effects, some can be severe in cases – but autism is not one of those side effects.

    With the exception of Wakefield’s study (of 12 whole individuals, as opposed to most studies which include up to thousands) there has not been another scientific study that has shown any link between vaccines and autism.

    And saying these diseases had almost been eradicated before vaccines were common is a LIE. That is perfectly well stated in Todd’s links above as well.

    I don’t quite understand you’re last point – are you saying that there were only 200 – 400 people with Autism in the United States over the course of 20 years?

  207. Lawrence

    @Birgit – studies??? Are you serious? There have been dozens of studies, both by government & independent researchers – across the globe. None of which has given any credence to the vaccine & autism link.

    Again, see Todd’s links at the beginning of these posts.

  208. lawrence
    there were 200-400 deaths ND before nationalization of vaccines it was down to 61 deaths. i will send up the national autism schedule which escalated after babies are to have over 128 shots before their 12th birthday makes great sense, right?

  209. lawrence and todd
    here is the autism studies
    next one military then healing autism

    so 1 at a time

    here is autism studies ~~

    http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/janak/090418

  210. todd and lawrence here are world wide views on all vaccines , please note japans increae in autism

    http://www.whale.to/vaccines/safer.html

  211. John S

    Here’s another interesting tidbit:

    Exp Toxicol Pathol. 2009 Mar;61(2):133-6. Epub 2008 Sep 3.Click here to read Links
    Gender-selective toxicity of thimerosal.
    Branch DR.

    ” Thus, our studies, although not directly addressing the controversy surrounding thimerosal and autism, and still preliminary due to small numbers of mice examined, provide, nevertheless, the first report of gender-selective toxicity of thimerosal and indicate that any future studies of thimerosal toxicity should take into consideration gender-specific differences.”

  212. Calli Arcale

    donna, you say you’ve been a teacher for 29 years, and that you help write IEPs for disabled children, and have a number of advanced degrees. With all that being the case, why do your posts look the way they do? Is your shift key broken? Do the punctuation marks only sometimes work? If so, I recommend getting a new keyboard. They’re quite cheap nowadays. Otherwise, you end up look a lot less educated than you claim. (Admittedly, your sentence fragments make it difficult to conclude that your keyboard is to blame. They also make it difficult to understand you.)

    In one of your first comments in this thread, you also remarked that “meningitis is polio is you look at the definition”. You say you’ve worked in microbiology, yet you think meningitis and polio are synonyms? You also claim that viruses are never lethal, which is patently untrue. I have to seriously question your claim of being a microbiologist. While I sadly have indeed met teachers with writing skills as abysmal as yours, I find it hard to believe you could get a microbiology degree with such drastic misunderstandings of microbiology itself. (Oh wait, you admitted later on that you’re not a microbiologist but actually worked as a part-time lab tech in the military. For either 12, 10, or 7 years, I’m not clear.)

    I also have a hard time taking your claims seriously when you think polio and meningitis are synonymous, and when you think that viruses can never kill but produce fevers which should be treated with antibiotics. (Viruses most certainly can kill, antibiotics do not directly affect fevers, not all fevers are due to bacterial infections, and antibiotics don’t do diddly squat against viruses anyway. How do you feel about antivirals, I wonder?)

    And if you have such good access to medical research, how is it that you’ve missed the research on vaccine efficacy? Every vaccine (every) has to be tested for efficacy. The FDA requires this. A vaccine not tested for efficacy cannot legally be sold in the United States, but could potentially be used in an experimental context, assuming there is an actual IRB-approved study underway. (Experimenting willy-nilly is not permitted, because lives are at stake.) I’m not sure how you could have missed it. I also wonder how you ignore the unavoidable evidence that the smallpox vaccine was effective.

    Picked entirely at random (copy-and-paste into your location bar):
    clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00133445?term=pediarix&rank=2

    This is a study which looked at the Pentavalent DTaP-Hep B-IPV vaccine. It looked at safety and efficacy compared to older vaccines. Efficacy was tested by looking to see whether the children in the study produced the desired antibodies after the vaccination series was complete. This is the usual way that efficacy is tested, since the alternative (deliberately exposing them to the pathogen in a way likely to infect) is wildly unethical when you’re still testing to see if the vaccine even works.

    Pick a vaccine, stick it into the clinicaltrials.gov search utility, and you’ll see the studies you’re looking for. The claim that vaccines are “untested for efficacy” is complete balderdash.

    There are also studies regularly done looking at disease prevalence; if you track those against the vaccination rate, it’s pretty obvious that vaccines work.

  213. todd and lawrence
    here is one healing site for autistics

    http://www.healingautism.com/home.html

  214. Calli Arcale

    Er, not “donna” but “debora”. Sorry about that. (Been watching too much Dr Who lately, I expect, as there’s a wonderful character in there named Donna. The comparison is complimentary, trust me.)

  215. calli
    i am not donna
    am debora!
    and viruses are dangerous
    what i said is you can not use viruses to kill bacterium, which is most of the diseases. duh
    nor the other ingredients in vaccines to include :

    mercury (thimerosol)
    aluminum
    antifreeze reagents
    people’s urine and feces
    abortred fetal cells
    and green monkey cells which carried over from polio vaccines are in that witches brew

    and any of you show me a real study and investigation of vaccine efficacy, prove it !

    and yes polio and meningitis are the same
    swelling of brain (encephalitis)
    which affects the limbs and all systems within the body

    its kind of odd , those htat have had polio vaccines have come down with polio.
    remember 2 doctors got credit for polio vaccines, one was a failure, and linked to aids sabin and salk
    and i read all their research , and the sadness by some of their employees on the mistaves with vr 40

  216. calli and todd
    here is canada’s view on vaccines

    http://autisminnb.blogspot.com/2009/02/vaccine-autism-war-where-in-world-is-dr.html

    btw , i explained my pitiful typing , is neurological damage from train accident and having mercury tocicity

    but i assure you my speaking abilty is far superior to my typing skills
    and yes i can write.
    but in chats, i keep it informal
    if you wish to have p’ing contest on vocabulary try another medium

  217. @debora

    what i said is you can not use viruses to kill bacterium, which is most of the diseases.

    Which diseases are caused by bacteria? Are you even clear on how vaccines work?

    Thimerosal is not in the majority of vaccines above trace amounts now, due to political and public pressure, rather than sound science. Those that still do use thimerosal are available in thimerosal-free versions. The reason it is used is to prevent the growth of fungi and bacteria in the vaccine. (See my first post)

    Aluminum is used in a salt form to stimulate the immune response, meaning less of the vaccine is needed. It is also used below the toxic threshold.

    Antifreeze reagents – exactly what reagents would these be? Are you referring to ethylene glycol? Because that is not in any vaccine.

    People’s urine and feces – uh, citation please.

    Aborted fetal cells – again, citation please.

    “green monkey cells which carried over from polio vaccines are in that witches brew” – Green monkey cells?

    and any of you show me a real study and investigation of vaccine efficacy, prove it !

    Calli provided you with one.

    and yes polio and meningitis are the same
    swelling of brain (encephalitis)
    which affects the limbs and all systems within the body

    Um, no they aren’t the same. Polio is caused by a virus. Meningitis has two different causes. There is a virus (different from the polio virus) and bacteria. They may cause similar symptoms, but they are not the same disease.

    its kind of odd , those htat have had polio vaccines have come down with polio

    See my first post, the section on polio.

  218. @debora

    Regarding your Japan and autism bit from whale.to (a pseudoscience web site if ever there was one), autism rates in Japan continued to rise even after MMR was removed from their vaccination schedule.

  219. Calli Arcale

    One more thing, in reference to your most recent post:

    lawrence
    there were 200-400 deaths ND before nationalization of vaccines it was down to 61 deaths. i will send up the national autism schedule which escalated after babies are to have over 128 shots before their 12th birthday makes great sense, right?

    128 shots doesn’t sound at all right to me. I’m going to count them up.

    Okay, going by the recommended schedule here in Minnesota (which exceeds the mandatory schedule, and is meant more to guide how to time these if one wants to do all of them), I count 33 shots, plus three shots if one wants HPV in that timeframe, plus an annual influenza shot if desired, plus three oral vaccine doses if one elects to do rotavirus. If one does *all* of them (which, again, is more than is required), that’s 48 shots plus three oral doses in twelve years. (The schedule doesn’t mention this, but some clinics are recommending a two-dose influenza shot early in life, but that would only bring it to 49.)

    Teens need two shots (tetanus and meningococcal) plus recommended (but not required) annual flu shots. HPV can be given in three doses if they haven’t had it yet. And if they aren’t current on their age 12 vaccines, there are some they’ll need to get in order to enter school.

    I suppose you might be counting individual diseases. Some of these are “polyvalent” — that is, one shot covers several diseases. That’s not the same thing as 128 shots, but still. I’ll count that up….. 48. Add the three rotavirus oral vaccines (not shots) and the three optional HPV shots and twelve annual influenza shots, and you get sixty-six.

    Where the heck did you come up with 128 shots by 12?

    Just thought of somethign else — you at one point decried vaccines because viruses don’t kill. How do you feel about pertussis, then? It’s not a virus. Maybe I misunderstood your osition, but that seems inconsistent to me.

  220. calli

    the actual figures by age 12 are 69 to 78 actual vaccines
    what you forgot is that some vaccines are combined with anywhere from 3 -5 doses of other vaccines
    the mmr is not the olny vaccines that has multi doses
    when i asked my doctor , he said closer to 128
    the 49 is the old vaccine standards

  221. Will. M

    There’s an interesting article in Skeptic Magazine, Vol. 14, No. 3 2008 by Harriet Hall, The Skeptdoc, on why some people refuse to accept the germ theory, and, by extrapolation, anyone who rejects an accepted fact that they find objectionable. “It is very frustrating trying to carry on a conversation with someone who thinks this way,” she says, “it’s like trying to grasp a cloud or wrestle with jello.” She closes her essay with this: “They are like the psychiatric patient who thought he was dead. They asked him if dead men could bleed. He said no. They pointed out that he was bleeding. He said, ‘Wow, I guess dead men can bleed.'”
    There is no rational way to converse with someone who has this reached this level of denial and rationalization as his mindset.

  222. calli, here are some books to refer to, if you would like

    http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/vaccine-books.htm

    all i know is that i chat with over 900 parents on line that are all anti vaccines
    there are doctors , nurses, medical lab microbiologists (like myself)
    physical therapists and many parents.

    i have a reason to be anti vaccine, i would not have had mercury poisoning , proven // done and tested by real doctors, btw registerd a 14 ppm
    i did not realize the gravity of my condition, until observing my 33 kids
    at the high school where i taught in a special ed resource room.
    fortunately i was misdiagnosed with fibromyalgia, but never had the 18-22 trigger points.
    one visit with my doctor and i had pointed questions, he felt it was because i worked in a hospital, but after all the shots records and having 10 amalgams, my 24 hr urine was tested , and i spent 18 months with chelation and a special diet.
    i have not been sick since 2001, no more migraines, allergies , asthma,
    am down to my size 8 jeans, and my hair grew back.
    so if a 42 yr old woman cant take shots, what kind of fighting chance does an eight pound to twenty -two pound baby have?

  223. minnesota had an interesting article in their newspaper about autism 3 months ago

  224. Green monkey cells?

    Eh, isn’t that what gave DC’s Beast Boy his shape-changing power?

  225. mercury (thimerosol)
    aluminum
    antifreeze reagents
    people’s urine and feces
    abortred fetal cells
    and green monkey cells which carried over from polio vaccines are in that witches brew

    Whaaaaaaaaat!?!?!?!? I’m sorry, but if you had any shred of credibility left, that list just tossed it right out the window..

  226. todd to answer your questions

    tetanus, diptheria, meningitis, tuberculosis are bacteria

    mumps, measles rubella (german measles ) virus
    hpv is herpes virus

    what i said is there is no way a virus can

    kill a bacterium, they are one celled and do not replicate

    a virus can not kill another virus, due to all viruses that mutate, and even from one individual to another the viruses are different, no 2 are alike in most instances.

    and yes all the ingredients i provided are accurate
    go to vaers
    go to vaccine ingredients
    here is vaccien ingredients lists that i have forwarded to you 2 x now

    http://www.oasisadvancedwellness.com/learning/informed-vaccine.html

  227. Paul

    This thread was over at post #1. People need to quit pandering to the laziness and dishonesty of the anti-vax whackaloons.

  228. @debora

    minnesota had an interesting article in their newspaper about autism 3 months ago

    Would that be the one about the Somali population? Yeah, I covered that in my first post, too. Interesting how Generation Rescue went in there telling the families that it was the vaccines before any investigation had been done as to the causes. Also interesting how some of those families had children who were diagnosed before receiving any vaccines.

  229. naked bunny
    yes they use green monkey cells , not all vacciens , some
    the same crap they used in polio vaccines
    they even used a dead cancer patient’ ovary tissue, as a tribute to her the dead woman they honnored her on a page last year.

  230. @debora

    Citations!!!! Why is it so hard for you to cite your sources? What do you teach that this concept (along with good grammar) seem so foreign to you?

  231. tood in japan, there is a decline
    but remember, all mothers get shots during delivery of babies
    and vitamin k and hep b shots still routine

  232. @debora

    I took a look at the sources you linked to for the Gardasil hit piece by Barabara Loe Fisher, who, I found out previously when I was studying the issue of vaccines, is a conspiracy nut. She of the moving goalposts, who is on record as saying that “If it isn’t thimerosal, then it must be something else in the vaccines.” No science in that link; only opinion.

    Same thing for the CBS link, though that one at least included the info that no causal link has been found.

    As for Age of Autism, they have made many of the distortions I correct up in my first post in this thread. Perhaps you should give it a read.

  233. @debora

    tood in japan, there is a decline
    but remember, all mothers get shots during delivery of babies
    and vitamin k and hep b shots still routine

    Citations, please. How many times must I ask?

    Along with that, please show not only that vitamin K and HebB shots are given during delivery, but that there is a causal link between them and autism in the child.

  234. Calli Arcale

    Sorry, you posted while I was typing, and I missed your clarification that you don’t think viruses can be dangerous. However, I’m even more confused by your clarification: “what i said is you can not use viruses to kill bacterium, which is most of the diseases.” What do you mean? Do you think doctors use viruses to kill bacteria? They don’t. I’m just puzzled by the statement.

    If you think there are no bacterial vaccines, you need some more education. Look up Pertussis and Tetanus on Wikipedia. While you’re at it, look up Haemophilous influenzae B. Despite the confusing scientific name, that isn’t influenza — in fact, it’s not even a virus. It’s a bacterium.

    Your vaccine ingredient list also displays ignorance. It’s obvious you really haven’t researched this topic beyond what you could find at sites like Generation Rescue and Age of Autism and perhaps Huffington Post.

    mercury (thimerosol) — thimerosal is not mercury; it contains ethylmercury, which while dangerous (that’s why it works as a preservative), is not anywhere near as dangerous as elemental mercury. I would expect a microbiologist to understand the difference. Though not as dramatic as the difference between sodium and sodium chloride, it is still analogous in that the chemical properties are different between compounds.

    aluminum — the function of aluminum is to tell the immune system that there’s a mean ol’ pathogen here and it had better swing into action; you can’t take it out without causing problems (also, I believe this is in the form of an aluminum salt, not elemental aluminum, which is highly reactive); if this small dose were a problem, you’d think aluminum pop cans would’ve been banned in favor of steel ones years ago (steel cans are already used in other countries where aluminum is more expensive)

    antifreeze reagents — some vaccines contain polyethylene glycol, which sounds a bit like ethylene glycol (antifreeze) but chemically isn’t. I’m not sure what you mean by “antifreeze reagents”, though. You can make polyethylene glycol out of ethylene glycol, but if that’s what you mean a) so what and b) you’ve got your terminology backwards

    people’s urine and feces — not at a facility that isn’t going to get a serious FDA smack-down

    abortred fetal cells — nope; this claim comes from the fact that some older vaccines come from viral stock that was bred using a cell line derived from a fetus aborted in the 1960s; no actual fetal cells are involved in the modern production

    and green monkey cells which carried over from polio vaccines — okay, are you seriously suggesting that unrelated vaccines have been contaminated with material from polio vaccines? Besides, even if you were, this claim has the same problem as the aborted fetal cell claim; no actual cells are present in the vaccine

    and yes polio and meningitis are the same
    swelling of brain (encephalitis)
    which affects the limbs and all systems within the body

    No. Encephalitis and meningitis are actually NOT the same thing at all, though they can be related — one can easily become the other. (Just as cystitis — bladder inflammation — is not the same as nephritis — kidney inflammation.) As a meningitis survivor myself (who has never had polio), I will educate you on the difference. Earlier you had said they were the same by definition, which tells me you haven’t read the definitions.

    Meningitis = inflammation of the meninges, which are the membranes that cover the central nervous system (brain and spinal cord). Can be caused by many different viruses and bacteria, and also occasionally by non-contagious “mechanical” causes. Any septicemia can lead to meningitis. So can measles or chickenpox. Several causes of meningitis are extremely contagious, including Haemophilus influenza B, which is an airborne pathogen. Because the cause of my case was unknown, I was put into isolation in case that’s what it was. Treatment varies; it depends on what kind of meningitis the person has. There is a high likelihood of progression to encephalitis, and the fever alone can be lethal, so it is imperative to get the person into the hospital immediately. For bacterial cases, antibiotics are a must. For viral, care tends to be supportive (though newer antivirals can help) — keeping the patient alive long enough for the immune system to do its job.

    Encephalitis = inflammation of the brain. As with meningitis, there can be many causes. Anything that causes meningitis can cause encephalitis (and, untreated, probably will). Some of the more famous causes are not vaccine preventable yet, such as West Nile Virus (though there is a vaccine for horses, one has not yet been developed for humans) and La Crosse Encephalitis, both transmitted by mosquitos. It is often the final blow for people dying of measles — the virus gets into the brain and strikes a fatal blow.

    Polio = short for poliomyelitis, a specific disease caused by poliovirus and spread primarily through the fecal-oral route (same route as things like the famously contagious norovirus, and why I get so miffed when I see people not washing their hands before meals — wash after the potty to protect others, but wash before eating to protect yourself). Most infected individuals will show no symptoms, which is why it is so easy for the disease to persist — it doesn’t kill most of its hosts. But those who do show symptoms face terrible things, because it afflicts the nervous system. If you’re lucky, it just afflicts extremities, but spinal polio is much worse and can lead to paralysis or even death as it shuts down one’s ability to breathe. Interestingly, encephalitis is actually rare in polio cases; I’m not clear on why.

    its kind of odd , those htat have had polio vaccines have come down with polio.
    remember 2 doctors got credit for polio vaccines, one was a failure, and linked to aids sabin and salk
    and i read all their research , and the sadness by some of their employees on the mistaves with vr 40

    There are two different polio vaccines, one developed by Sabin and one by Salk, and neither was a failure. Salk came up with the inactivated polio vaccine, which is more expensive to make and administer (since it’s injected), but cannot possibly give a person polio. Sabin came up with a cheaper one which can be given orally, but which uses a weakened version of the virus. It is possible to get polio from the oral polio vaccine (OPV).

    Word health efforts usually use the cheaper OPV to eradicate polio, because it wouldn’t be practical to use the IPV, and because OPV is actually safer in areas where polio is still endemic (because it can’t compete with the wild strain). One herd immunity is established, you really need to switch a population over to IPV.

  235. tood excuse me?

    i sent over 14 sites to your site, i see they are still moderated
    i told you , repeatedly i have arthritis in my handsnad neck.
    so i did cite them many times.
    please remove awaiting moderation?
    ia m typing in outline form, not in proper form
    not when you call one a mental case in previous convos.
    or keep citing cdc and nih and the same places.
    i read all the cdc , nih and your preferred literature (cites).

    real simply put
    all you have to do is go to mercury poisoning sites, or just type mercury
    type in one word “” thimerosol””
    then type “dental amalgam poisoning”
    and btw hal huggins book
    “its all in your head ”
    is a great read, talked with him several times.
    better still contact andrew cutler on chelation protocols
    he is a real scientist.
    i have the complete manual in toxicology sent to me from the cdc
    and no there was no mention of vaccine studies from the cdc and nih.
    plenty on rabbits rats and monkeys.
    the actual book, im looking it right now from us dept of health and human services called ”
    “toxicological profile for mercury update”
    that is what the cdc gives you when reported with mercury poisoning.
    their expert toxicologist stuttered when i gave him my results.
    would love to speak on this vs writing. have a yahoo instant pager
    if you only knew my pain level right now.
    wow been on here almost 6 hours.

  236. Calli Arcale

    I have to try to keep my posts shorter. ;-)

    the actual figures by age 12 are 69 to 78 actual vaccines
    what you forgot is that some vaccines are combined with anywhere from 3 -5 doses of other vaccines
    the mmr is not the olny vaccines that has multi doses
    when i asked my doctor , he said closer to 128
    the 49 is the old vaccine standards

    Holy cow, where do you live? Land of the Sadists? There’s no science-based reason to give that many vaccinations. Hell, I don’t think even veterinarians in third world countries need that many, and they need rabies plus all the really exotic stuff.

  237. @ debora

    > but what scares me are those that discredit not only
    > andrew wakefield, but anytime a doctor questions
    > the validity of vaccines and presents a paper, the
    > big pharma and their supporters prosecute or
    > ostacize them. of course their finding are
    > suddenly lost

    Science: it doesn’t work that way.

    Andrew Wakefield’s original, flawed, retracted study is still available via every e-journal indexing site I can find. Findings, once published, are never lost, even when they have been retracted.

    There are currently hundreds of scientific journals. Some have very high barriers to entry, some are much lower. Most use at least some sort of peer review, but there are cutting edge journals that will let almost anything through (not so much in the medical research field, I will grant you).

    What several people on this comment thread fail to understand is that virtually every scientist (at least, the ones I’ve met) loves contradictory findings. They love surprises, that’s why they got into science in the first place. If someone executes a study that comes up with a result that doesn’t fit into their current theory, it’s going to be the first thing they read when they get a copy of the journal. Certainly, they may look at the limitations section of the study or read the experimental method and decided that the results, while interesting, don’t warrant updating the theory or discarding it. Theories move on burden of proof, as the evidence becomes more and more substantive.

    I know of very few scientist who, when pressed into service as a journal reviewer, would discard an article out of hand because it challenged their pet theory. More to the point, I know of *no* editor who would give credence to such a rejection unless the reviewer gave a very strong, condemning and justifiable critique of the methodology.

  238. HCN

    debora, you have invoked Scopie’s Law:
    “ In any discussion involving science or medicine, citing Whale.to as a credible source loses you the argument immediately …and gets you laughed out of the room. ”

    See rationalwiki.com/wiki/Scopie’s_Law

    The owner of whale.to, John Scudamore, is a nutcase who believes that his bum was burned by satanic ley lines.

    Be advised that nothing you posted is actual factual scientific evidence, especially from places like AgeofAutism and elsewhere. I also find it disgusting that you think that the numbers of people killed by diseases in the 1960s was not high enough to merit any concern. Are you also thinking that the over a dozen American babies who still die from pertussis deserve their fate? Not only are you completely clueless, but you are heartless.

  239. Ema Nymton

    Wow, debora. You’re really dumb.

  240. Larian has, so far, been the only one to acknowledge my challenge but he is on the pro-vac side :D

    Anyway, still no anti-vaccers to blame me……. maybe I should stop fighting them with their favorite ‘Parents know better’ weapon. It’s a bit, well, cruel.

    And it takes away time I need for catering to my obsession for the abstract: mr. Philip Glass, play Einstein On The Beach (a mathematically correct composition with science on trial as on of the themes, a favorite of the New World Order of Masonic Illuminati).

  241. calli
    sorry to say , one of the polio vaccines was an eventual failure,
    i cant remember which one, he was present on television and appologised for some errors, some say that is how aids was developed.
    you make a great point, on dirty preparations and of not washing hands.
    i get disgusted when in any public ladies room (toilet // head) , and see all these women that just saunter out , without stopping to wash their hands.

    regarding meningitis, the actual vaccines have presented the actual dreaded disease. hameepholis b can not be eradicated by using it’s own bacterium.

    but everything i listed for ingredients is true.
    and that ethyl mercury is not so bad???? do not let those numbers fool you, the concentration after many vaccinations is far more dangerous than dental amalgams mercury content.
    and etyl mercury converts over to methyl mercury (the harmful mercury)
    soon as it enters the bloodstream.
    the bs about 75% leaves the body is pure bs. it , the mercury replicates like bacteria, sticks to the meninges, central nervous system, especially the myelin sheath. and mercury loves fat, so if anyone has a reduction of o2 in the body, mercury loves co2 a lot.
    and stores in fat cells.
    when i was diagnosed with mercury toxicity i had over 45 symptoms, definitely caused hypothyroidism, weight gain, female ireggualrities, migraies, allergies and asthma.
    but when i kept having doctors calling me to tell me i had cancer every year, because all my blood tests were off the charts, and my mantra was is it heavy metal poisoning?
    my 3rd pcp that i chose listened.
    the sad part , at the time lived in maine, (due to husband’s job) then i found out that radon and mercury were in soil , water and heavily in maine in general. people were finding out they were sick from it, the doctors blamed only the fish.
    i actually had a newspaper reporter call and interview me the article
    was on mercury poisoning, the article took about 4 hours , to tell about it. it was printed in the portland phoenix over 5000 words, in 2 separate weeks. there were 6 interviewed with mercury poisoning.
    i received calls and emails as far as austalia and europe. some wanted me to collaborate on a book.
    fox televison wanted to interview me on tv, the week before i was sheduled to go on, the producer was in tears, because corporate sponsors were general electric and one drug company.
    and for all your information , if mercury does you all so good.
    why did arnold scwharzenneger , governor ban mercury dental amalgams for all pregnant women and all children on medicaid?
    another cute fact, that i know is that people that work at merck, do not let their kids get vaccinated, kind of funny?
    remember , i said i was in army , well all my friends are in the medical profession or other careers, but lots of my freinds live in new york, new jersey and connecticutt ( the big drug companies) , so i get lots of info , and all great.

  242. Todd W,
    I see that you don’t have the brains to comment on the study from Mass. General and Harvard that I exposed as pure fraud.

    I’ll give you a second chance to show us how smart you are. Please explain how to cure autism.

  243. Paul

    In all fairness regarding your challenge, Erwin, there’s something related that always struck me as a contributing factor towards parents looking to find something to blame for autism (and many settling on vaccines since there are voices telling them that’s it).

    As a layperson: your kid is abnormal. If it’s not due to some toxins, what is it due to? Genetics? Right now it would seem that there is a genetic component to autism. I sincerely believe that many parents are driven towards the vaccines cause autism movement because they feel guilty and are looking for someone else to blame for their child’s condition. Because otherwise it is their fault.

    Not that I buy into assigning blame because of genetic risk factors (even more so when it’s not like we really know a parent’s risk in passing autism on to a child). But I think this avoidance is a large part of how the anti-vax movement has been able to take off.

  244. Lawrence

    @John – there is no cure for Autism (yet) & to suggest as such is pure stupidity. True, with early detection & much therapy, it is possible to mitigate the effects of the disorder to some degree.

    Those that claim that Chelation & some fruity diet cure all ills – it is the worst junk science & damages real research into the actual causes of the disorder & finding a way (hopefully) to prevent it in the future.

  245. Grump

    John Best: You don’t have enough manners to be let out in public.

  246. hcn ! hiya, lol
    scoopies law? lol
    if you read my threads, you would see i was really mercury poisoned. i have theeeeeeeeee manual from the cdc and nih, it is is pure b#$%^&, all 617 pages.

    i teach kids in special ed, ive seen kids that were in great shape, after a few vaccines, they go downhill, become mute, start stimming, have difficutly walking ,uncoordinated, have seizures etc etc.

    i was trained by the best in medicine , all my professors just came out of the viet nam war, medics doctors , patholgists at ft sam and walter reed.
    back in those old days , we were taught any mercury is dangerous or fatal.
    and i’m lol, because , know of cospiracy theories , the bilderbergs and the rest.

    i will say this , by observations , ive seen more cancer, more ms, more als, more fibromyalgia, more heart disease, more endocrine diseses, alcoholism, drug addiction , more behavioral /learning problems and many rare
    diseases du jour.
    but i happen to know many kids , not vaccinated, they are healthy, doing great in school and have great futures,
    i love every kid or adult i have taught over the years, the gifted and talented and special ed,, and i speak out because i want “my kids” to have the best and succeed, that includes my 3 foster daughters all grown now, the 2 not vaccinated did well, the 3rd that was over vaccinated not too good. and i made sure they saw doctors when needed, did school work and achieved their goals.

    and most definitely asd autism spectral disorders were way less in the 60s and 70s. 1 in 10,000 /// that number now 1/150 and or 1/110
    and some places 1 /60 with asd, location , location i guess.
    thank you for your research on vaccines and ingredients tho, appreciate it.

  247. Lawrence
    “True, with early detection & much therapy, it is possible to mitigate the effects of the disorder to some degree.”
    Yup, that’s how we go about it. My son has high-functioning autism (although how high remains to be seen), which has the added bonus that most people think there’s nothing wrong with him. However, those who see him on a daily near daily basis (like teachers) do recognize it. HFA, although it takes a lot of effort, can be migitated and, in some aspects, be used in a positive way. We are still on the fence about keeping him in a regular, public school, or in special education. All the while, he gets vaccinations on the normal schedule and regular food. So far he has the same love for Star Wars as I have (still need to turn him to Star Trek and general SF) and he might have the same feeling for math as I.

  248. Lawrence

    @Edwin – good for you & best of luck with your son. He sounds like a great kid – and no one can go wrong with Star Wars!

    @debora – so what you’re saying is that mercury replicates? That’s so far out of left field, out of the ballpark & not even on the same planet. Entering the bloodstream creates some kind of magical transformation?

    I would like to see links to your article & the names of the people at Fox that you spoke with. I know a bunch of the people over there & would be curious to speak to them about your situation.

  249. Lawrence,
    The cure for autism is chelation.

    Paul,
    The genetic component for autism is the APO-E4 protein.

    Grump,
    Manners should be thrown out the window when people advocate poisoning babies with vaccines.

  250. HCN

    debora, you are a liar.

  251. hey lawrence,
    yes mercury vapors build up, bad choice of words
    the mercury vapors saturate every part of the body .
    but mercury tends to remain in the brain , cns, kidneys.

    and regarding chelation it works , seen it with 3 kids with success.
    besides *the fruit and veggie diet, * chelation* then the following items are all necessary , to enrich their lives. to include:

    1. there is need for supplements , 2. eye therapy, and omg , some psychiatrists use that method, so alternative medicine is practiced by real doctors.
    3. allergy testing / food testing, since these kids have chemicalsensitivities sensitivities, and of course. 4. more diet restrictions for ‘junk food” , you might know that one. 5. exercise 6. rest and leisure last but not least 7. routine schedule always put that all together with lovign supportive parents or parent and it works.

    the cost is not as prohibitive as expected.

    I WILL REPEAT I DO NOT DO THIS FOR MONEY i do give referrals to real doctors on my lists, for free just call me a “conduit”
    i am involved in many chats on anti vaccines , and i get countless medical research and papers daily form many organizations.
    and i am a child advocate, took a 19 week course with diploma.
    you can trash everyone who believes, that is your choice
    i choose to educate

    lol call fox , figure out which station first

  252. sorry for typos so i wont get slammed again

  253. @Lawrence – It’s Erwin with an r not Edwin and this is why I’m proud of it http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=19980128&mode=classic LOL, just having a go at you ;)

  254. ema
    dumb?
    no im not mute (dumb)
    insults are frivolous
    how would you like it if i called you a rectal cavity or anal orifice?

  255. Lawrence

    @debora – say what you will, but I do have quite a few contacts within that organization, Fox News & several of the affiliates (for a variety of business reasons). I’m sure they would be more than happy to point me in the right direction, especially if there really was pressure not to run a story (reporters hate that kind of thing & love to leak info if they have to).

    So, pony up, if it is the truth.

    Also, I’m not doubting that mercury poisoning is real – but trying to equate true heavy metal poisoning with vaccines is pure bunk. Once again, if vaccines were so horrible – why aren’t people keeling over left and right. You make it sound like cyanide in a syringe – so you’d expect millions of people to get sick on a daily basis.

    And of course, we all know that nothing of the kind is actually occuring. You also mention the difference in autism diagnoses over the past fifty years – well, since we now recognize a whole spectrum of disorders that can be called autism (from Aspergers to more severe cases), you would of course see an increase in cases.

    Chelation is a dangerous procedure, geared towards serious heavy metal poisoning – if you put a child through that process for no good reason, that is pure child abuse.

    And for those who comment about Gallieo – remember, he had science on his side, while everyone else had blind faith. So, which side are you guys on this time???

  256. @Lawrence The CAM toying with chelation therapy is dangerous indeed. Also, it just now occurred to me is that the way CAM-ers go about medical care for their children, here and there borders on Munchausen by Proxy

  257. hey everyone did you hear about the new swine flu?
    “dozens have died in mexico, thousands have been sickened
    the worriesome new virus combined of pig, birds and human , that researchers have not ever seen before , 8 in the us have survived”
    chee maybe the conspiracy theorists might be right? that is today’s news folks.

  258. Lawrence

    Yeap, diseases have a tendency to mutate. So what’s the point?

    My last post for the night – nothing I say is going to change your minds, obviously. But, what will you say to the parents of the child that is blinded by contracting the measles or sterilzed by the mumps? Or what will you say if the child dies?

    “Oh well, at least he didn’t get Autism….”

    Seriously people, you have the potential to either save lives or end them – please, please, please make the right choice – backed up by the real facts.

  259. lawrence , you are dead wrong on chelation
    the old methodolgy was risky, but there are new things , that are safe , that a 2 year old could use them. ndf and zeolites are some examples
    chlorella and cilantro nad anything with papain

    pony up?
    that event happened in 2001, almost 9 years now.

    if we are in such great shape healthwise as a nation, why is the average for men age 73 and women 76 ?
    while japan and most of europe have longer lives.
    and we as a nation have many chronic diseases

    obesity
    diabetes
    depression
    insomnia
    increase in ms and als
    increases in hypothyroidism, hashimotos was once rare now at 25% to proceed to hypothyroidism without hyperthyroidism 1st
    and alcoholism ? 1 in 3
    we are only third after russia and france
    alcoholism swept the nation post ww2 and has not improved/ guess that is part of ocpd

  260. @debora That’s all you need for it to be a conspiracy? How about the plague in 14th century Europe, that killed a third to half the population? We didn’t have modern medicine back then but a lot of what we now call alternative medicine: herbs, cleansing fire circles, faith healing and all that. Somehow I think we stand a better chance against these flu variants with big pharma.

  261. good night all
    thank you for all your information
    my healthy dinner of quiche and garden salad is beckoning
    ty todd , cali, lawrence , john , elaine and anyone i forgot to mention

  262. @Paul
    I saw your comment just now, sorry about that. As for the hereditary component of autism, let’s say in the case of my son there seems to be strong evidence but the jury is still out, expecting to hand the verdict in the near future. My interest is to guide him to life a bit better than, well I guess you by now know who I talk about ;)

    Interestingly, last year I talked with autists on a autism forum on the hypothetical question ‘If there was a pill that could cure your autism, possibly instantly, would you take it’. Almost everyone said ‘no’ outright, a few were doubting or said yes but considered it to be a largely negative choice that might rid them of social problems. Of course, being able to carry such a conversation, they (why am I still pretending by saying ‘they’?) had to be average to high functioning autists.

  263. Mike

    Well, that adds Jim Carrey to the list of people who are dead to me.

  264. @Erwin,

    My daughter has also been diagnosed with a high functioning Asperger’s Syndrome (and quite often I suspect I may have that as well). I have a nephew that is sadly quite low functioning. He would have been labled as mentally retarded in a previous age as opposed to autistic. I suppose if we bunched in all the people in ages past that were labled distant, impulsive, difficult, etc. we’d have a different set of numbers…

    As for the out and out crazy in this thread… Wow! Just.. wow…

    Chelation: http://whatstheharm.net/chelationtherapy.html I guess some people just seem to enjoy trying to kill children. Adherents to Psalms 137:9 perhaps? (That was naughty of me, wasn’t it?)

  265. @Larian On the upside, I’ve met a lot of skeptics and other good people over the last week.

    And yes, that remark is good for a one way ticket to the place where the guy with the pointy stick runs the joint :P

  266. Calli Arcale

    debora:

    sorry to say , one of the polio vaccines was an eventual failure,
    i cant remember which one, he was present on television and appologised for some errors, some say that is how aids was developed.

    Which one? Because I’ve not heard anything about it being a failure. Just that there was a lot of policitizing between the proponents of the two. And AIDS? AIDS has nothing whatsoever to do with poliovirus. I have seen conspiracy theorists claim that AIDS was engineered by evil Western scientists (for a variety of supposed motivations) and plenty claim it has nothing to do with HIV, but polio is a new one on me.

    regarding meningitis, the actual vaccines have presented the actual dreaded disease. hameepholis b can not be eradicated by using it’s own bacterium.,

    I know of no cases of meningitis resulting from meningitis vaccines. HiB vaccine and meningococcal vaccine do not contain live bacteria, as far as I know. They contain antigens, proteins which match those found on the bacteria. (And I thought you said that meningitis and polio were the same thing? Are you now acknowledging that they aren’t the same at all?)

    and regarding chelation it works , seen it with 3 kids with success.

    the cost is not as prohibitive as expected.

    There is no reason whatsoever to think that chelation would reverse neurological damage. Even if autism were the result of neurological damage (which an increasingly large body of work suggests it isn’t), removing mercury could not reverse it. The thing about mercury poisoning (real mercury poisoning, not the kind diagnosed by quacks and frauds) is that the damage is permanent. Oh, the brain might be able to regrow and adapt to compensate for the damage; the brain’s an amazing organ. But the damage won’t be reversed, even if you remove the mercury. If you’ve seen improvement after chelation, be cautious about assuming that the chelation was what did it. Remember that autistics are not little robots. They’re children, and children *learn*. Even without interventions, you can expect them to make significant improvements from time to time.

    The cost is not prohibitive? Well, it’s true that people can often find the money. But I would not say it’s cheap. I’ve heard of people going into bankruptcy to pay for it. If a family has a high income (and isn’t suffering from the current economic situation), fine, but otherwise, what the school district can offer may be all a family can manage. (That’s why I was so saddened to read recently that one of the Twin Cities school districts has just decided to reduce their special ed workforce.)

    you can trash everyone who believes, that is your choice
    i choose to educate

    I choose to learn the truth first.

    the old methodolgy was risky, but there are new things , that are safe , that a 2 year old could use them. ndf and zeolites are some examples
    chlorella and cilantro nad anything with papain

    There are naturally-ocurring chelators, of course. Rhubarb (or rather, the oxalic acid in it) is a really good example. That gritty mouth-feel you get when eating rhubarb is calcium being scavanged by the oxalic acid. That doesn’t mean they’re safe or that taking them orally will achieve anything. None of those have been tested for safety or efficacy or approved by the FDA for that purpose. Unlike vaccines, I should point out. If you do not feel vaccines have been adequately tested, why are you so casual about unapproved chelation agents?

    Chelation by its very nature is hazardous, because chelating agents aren’t intelligent — they don’t know which metal ions are good ones and which ones are bad ones. The most common adverse effects from chelation therapy are hypocalcemia (sometimes fatal) and kidney damage, sometimes irreversible. If a chelation therapy is effective, you can bet it is also risky, so it needs to be done very carefully and ideally in a hospital setting in case things go wrong.

    if we are in such great shape healthwise as a nation, why is the average for men age 73 and women 76 ?
    while japan and most of europe have longer lives.

    Orac, at Respectful Insolence, recently found the best way to explain the problem that I’ve ever seen — here in the US we have all (or most) of the downsides of socialized medicine but none of the benefits, thanks to the way our insurance companies use Medicare as their rule of thumb all the time. It sucks seriously, but I don’t have a clue what the answer is. It’s shameful, in my opinion, that we let our medical system be governed so heavily by politicians and lobbyists. (Did you know that pharmaceutical companies are among the biggest proponents of “health freedom”? It frees them of pesky regulation. I don’t trust any pharmaceutical or nutriceutical or other medical company any further than I can throw it, which is why I believe strongly in regulation.)

    my healthy dinner of quiche and garden salad is beckoning

    I hope it was delicious! Quiche is awesome. (I should make some. My mother-in-law gave me three dozen eggs from her hens, and I need to use them up!)

    On a more personal note, I am pleased to meet someone who is advocating for the kids. Too often, the care decisions are made based on the teacher’s frustrations, and the child’s welfare gets lost in the shuffle. Not by anybody’s intent, but because no one is looking out for them specifically. My mom’s going into the same field, and I think it needs more people like you. While I disagree with you stridently about the risk/benefit of vaccination, and about the value of interventions such as chelation, I am 100% in agreement with you about the fact that these children deserve a chance at a productive life, and whatever we as parents and caregivers can do to help them is well worth it. So keep at it! And you seem motivated to research, so keep at that too!

  267. Joe

    Well I just spent a while reading some of the comments left by people here. I myself am not the smartest person by a long shot and can’t give an eloquent redress to my opinions so please forgive my simplicity.
    I am about to be the dad of a beautiful ,healthy baby boy( obgyn scared us into thinking he was down’s even thought we have no rick factors). He was sonogramed and tested for everything the doc could bill. I don’t know whether I should vaccinate him or not but someone once told me that “no product or service should be provided at the barrel of a gun” now noone has threatened us with guns saying we have to vaccinate but the only pediatrician in our area told us, as clearly as you are reading this, after we asked about vaccine safety that if we did not vaccinate our son he would not allow him to be his patient and that if we didn’t vaccinate him he would call family services and report us because it’s the law. He is the only pediatrician for 48 miles around (rural Texas). That to me feels like the barrel of a gun. If vacccines are so great and so safe why do we have to be forced to take them? The way he responded to my asking a question, when all I wanted was reassurance from someone I thought would be concerned for my family’s well being, is what made me question just how “great” are these vaccinces really. I’ll be honest, I am very confused. Even if all the charts and graphs were posted up I don’t think I would understand them. All I can say is I see the same anger and aggresion I got from that pediatrician on this blog towards people who just have questions that noone seems to be able to answer with anything better that ” OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE”.

  268. nd that ethyl mercury is not so bad???? do not let those numbers fool you, the concentration after many vaccinations is far more dangerous than dental amalgams mercury content.
    and etyl mercury converts over to methyl mercury (the harmful mercury)
    soon as it enters the bloodstream.

    Arrrrgghghgghghg!!!!!!!
    <img src="http://www.dwfoto.com/images/blog_images/writing_process.gif&quot;

  269. Scott

    Phil –

    If your mind’s made up, fine; however, to “never watch another Jim Carrey movie again, ever” because of something he said is a bit of misplaced angst, isn’t it? Pardon my comparison, but doesn’t this put you in the same class with the the country music fans that burned their Dixie Chicks albums because of their statements about former president George W. Bush?

    There are PLENTY of entertainers and performers that I believe are whacked completely out of their mind as far as their opinions go. However, if I limited myself to entertainment only from the artists that I agree with politically, scientifically or otherwise, I’d afraid I’d be relegated to sitting home most of the time, talking to my dog.

    You’re better than that, man. Life’s too short.

  270. Todd W.

    @debora

    Sorry for the delay in responding to your posts. Others have already addressed a number of the points, so I won’t belabor those.

    I did a quick search, but was unable to find any scientific literature that says ethylmercury converts into methylmercury. Can you provide a link for that?

    As to your mercury poisoning, it sounds like yours is from environmental exposure of excessive levels of methylmercury. I’m sorry for that. However, as far as vaccines are concerned, again, the thimerosal metabolizes to ethylmercury, not methylmercury. Further, the exposure levels of ethylmercury are significantly below the exposure guidelines from the EPA for methylmercury.

    I’m going to set aside for a moment a lot of the other topics that have been discussed and get to something a little more pertinent to the discussion. Let me ask you a few questions.

    * Do you recommend that people not vaccinate their children?
    * If that is the case, what do you propose to prevent the widespread incidence of preventable diseases?
    * If you feel that people should vaccinate, but on a different schedule, what do you recommend for that schedule?

    I appreciate that you’ve kept a civil tone in this discussion. It is a lot more than can be said of many, many others, particularly on the anti-vax side.

  271. Todd W.

    @John Best

    When you grow up and can engage in a respectful discussion like an adult, then I’ll address your posts. Until then, you do not deserve any response.

  272. Todd W.

    @John S.

    Sorry I missed your post. The links must have held it up in moderation. When I get a chance, I’ll take a look at those links you provided. Thanks.

  273. Elaine McKillop

    When reading through the post on this page it is easy to see that there is no real debate going on. You have the Big Pharma tools of deception and you have ordinary people like me that have a vaccine-damaged child or are contemplating the risk of vaccines for their children. All I can say is become self-educated. It may take some difficulty but you can do it. Do not let yourself commit the logical fallacy of substituting your beliefs because an authoritarian figure has told you, you are wrong and they are right. That goes for every parent that has witnessed the change in their child immediately after a vaccine or shortly thereafter. There is a complicated web of deception.

    To understand the problem, you cannot just look at the narrow issue of vaccines, but the big picture. The behavior of the Pharmaceutical Cartel is not just deceptive about vaccines, but what about Rebecca Riley, a three year old who died from being prescribed off label and toxic medication and diagnosed as bipolar at two. We are the most medicated people in the world and by every standard of living we are going down. Our infant mortality rate is up, our Autism rate is up our literacy rate is down, the predictable longevity for our children is down, the nutritional value of our food is down and our liberty has sunk to a low that has never before occurred in the history of our country. Give up liberty for safety they told you. You are a human being, you can never have a “safe” moment in your life because life is precarious, it is the nature of it that you can not change, so all we have done is give up liberty not for safety but for tyranny. We are no longer a free country as conceptualized by our founding fathers. We have become enslaved by despotic bedfellows including a corrupt government, that has legislated away our money and our liberty, corporate powers and money that have made the all mighty buck more important then the life of a baby or a teenage girl as in the erupting Gardasil tragedy that will unfold when Big Pharma will act surprised when they diminish the fertility of a generation of young women, other corporate giants such as Monsanto want to have exclusive rights to our food chain, how evil is that?

    Dr. & Congressman Ron Paul has been talking about the coming collapse of our finances and the departure from the fundamental law of the land, our Constitution, for years, Our corrupt main stream propagandized media shut him up, marginalized him and he was the only man in Washington telling us the truth. We do not have a government that is for the people, we do not have a media that is for the people, and instead we are fed daily disinformation that protects corporate interest and corrupt government power. Where has all the bailout money gone? It is money that is enslaving our children with debt. Don’t we have a right to know? My rant is over, for now. Think Big Picture and think for yourself before you trust these bastards who say vaccines are safe.

  274. fred edison

    Phil, thank you greatly for caring for about the health of our kids and our nation. Really caring. Continue fighting the oft difficult but always worthy fight.

  275. Todd W,
    I apologize for hurting your feelings. That was crass of me. I have a personality problem that I struggle with where I can’t restrain myself from being rude to intellectually challenged propaganda wizards.

    Now, if you can make allowances for my diversity, please address the study without making up excuses.

  276. Elain, I’m sorry to say, but from the amount of paranoid delusional statements that are in your last post, I think you might want to look into some of those meds that “Big Pharma” can provide to even you out.

    Either that, or stop listening to Glen Beck.

  277. @Elaine
    I’m too ticked off right now. Just back from the library: 1 basic math book, loads of spirituality, astrologie, homeopathy…… if anything is taking over the world it is Big Woo-Woo which is, of course, a non-profit industry,

    Anyway, having read a reasonable amount on the matter, before my son got his first shots, I decided for it. Now tell me, am I deluded or plain evil? I think he might not be autistic but a helium-neon child, that’s indigo +200 [note: only a geek can figure this out, and yes, my brand of humor is suspected to be linked to my neurological make-up]

    As for the financial brouhaha: do not assume a planned action were the general individual stupidity that comes with greed is more than effective explanation. Some people get greedy and get away with it because others in their field are too and all want to get away with it. A few harmless snowflakes can great an avalanche of destruction. Think more object-oriented (in the sense that this done in software development) and you may see a different possible model, where the actions and interactions of individuals create a process that is not specifically intended and out of control. Conspiracies assume a level of control over society that humans cannot realize.

    An interesting tidbit may be that the autism diagnosis was made at an institution that is based on anthroposophy (a philosophy I don’t subscribe to). Of course I made reasonably sure the people there had proper credentials and that no undue bias entered the process. No need to worry, he got a proper diagnosis by a qualified team.

  278. T_U_T

    it , the mercury replicates like bacteria, sticks to the meninges, central nervous system, especially the myelin sheath

    holy crap. How can someone be that stupid and still avoid bumping into obstacles and walking in circles.

  279. Elaine,
    Great post! The people here support you 100%.
    http://oath-keepers.blogspot.com/

    Erwin and DRKSKY,
    Why don’t you stop trying to deny our children their Constitutional right to their Pursuit of Happiness? You liars make me sick.

  280. Pieter Kok

    I have read all 288 posts in this thread (yay me!), and the internal inconsistency of the antivax proponents is astounding. There has been virtually no mercury (in whatever form) in vaccines since 2001, yet some antivaxers claim that chelation is the cure for autism because it removes mercury from the brain. They claim that it is the non-pathogens in vaccines that are the problem, yet they argue that combination vaccines must be broken up into separate shots for each vaccine, thus vastly increasing the supposedly harmful substances. They complain about lack of testing of vaccines, but at the same time are happy to go with untested “natural” treatments that may in fact be quite harmful (more rhubarb, anyone?). Dawkins calls this (w.r.t. religion) compartmentilization: the ability of people to hold mutually exclusive beliefs. I think it is merely a lack of analytic reasoning skills.

  281. hi todd,
    have about 10 minutes, until i have students coming over.
    i know you do not believe the conversion of ethyl mercury to methyl mercury, but it does happen, suggest get that manual from your beloved cdc and nih titled “toxitoxicological profile for mercury update”.

    and no the mercury poisoning was from working in the hospital , dental amalgams was the second factor. had all offending amalgams removed before chelation procedure was started. and had to have 2mm of bone removed from left side of jawline because of said poisoning.

    it amazes me that the stupidy and insults from some of your pro vaxxers is deplorable.

    tell that idiot that mercury does build up , ill cite pages on that manual, when i am done with work today

    your question on vaxxing children, if the vaers , court has paid millions to plaintiffs. and i witness my specialed kids every day, there are other options. i will give them later when i have time. but an 8lb-22 lb baby can not take that much thimerosol, aluminum and other toxic brew
    since 2001 thimerosol was diluted not removed, feel sorry for the poeple that did not see my vaccine ingredients, that was put out by the govt . as well.

    the swine flu , the only cure is colloidal silver, people are buying it in droves. colloidal silver ahs been around for over 200 yrs, so it is tried and true. also “natural living” herbs tinctures work

    and recently merck was fined in autralian courts for pushing doctors to use their vaccines.

    the gardasil report from the govt says over 9,748 adverse reports in the usa, illl senmd you that update. there is no way that 11,000 young girls and women were in gardasil study, that was a hoax, send me that study if you have it please?

    there are only 2 vaccines that are necessary, (if that) but with a combination or real herbs, that are known for over 200 years and a good md with homeopathy background, that is safer, that a schedule of over 78 vaccines in the course of a child’s 1st 12 years.
    thank s , debora

  282. T_U_T

    he swine flu , the only cure is colloidal silver

    Wow. Did it ever occur to you, that silver is also toxic ? DDo you know, that you will get argyria from it and life long disfigurement ?

    also “natural living” herbs tinctures work

    I think you do. Because this is just obvious parody. POE

  283. T_U_T

    blockquote fail again. Can we get preview? can we ?

    the swine flu , the only cure is colloidal silver

    Wow. Did it ever occur to you, that silver is also toxic ? DDo you know, that you will get argyria from it and life long disfigurement ?

    also “natural living” herbs tinctures work

    I think you do. Because this is just obvious parody. POE

  284. Pieter Kok,
    You don’t have your facts straight. The full dose of thimerosal was found in the HepB shot as late as December of 2007. The flu shot still has the full dose. When given to a fetus through the mother, the hazard is even worse than the HepB shot to hours old newborns.

    The tetanus shot still has the full dose of thimerosal. We don’t know exactly how much that trace amount is in the other vaccines and we don’t know exactly how much mercury it takes to cause damage to those with the APO-E4 protein who can not excrete it.

  285. @ Elaine

    > Do not let yourself commit the logical fallacy of substituting
    >your beliefs because an authoritarian figure has told you,
    > you are wrong and they are right

    Argument from Authority: You’re doing it wrong.

    An argument from authority (the fallacy you’re claiming here), has two components in this case. First, there must be a debate about information (this is not, for example, a theological debate where metaphysics can be involved), and second, the “authority” to which you are appealing must not actually be an authority.

    If you’re comparing your belief (grounded in opinion and not fact) vs. empirical observation (structured through experiment), there’s no opportunity for fallacy there, because that is not an argument. You might be discussing, but you’re not operating on the same grounds.

    Second, while I agree with your premise that everyone has a responsibility to become self educated (and not just in this matter, but generally if they want to be a good citizen), I’m afraid that my idea of “education” is probably different from yours.

    Going out on the Internet and finding some people who believe like you and listening uncritically to their evidence *isn’t education*, it’s simply pulling a blanket over your head. To educate yourself, you need to seek out not only those people with whom you agree (and challenge what they say!), you need to seek out those people with whom you *disagree*, listen to what they have to say, and evaluate what they are trying to say.

    I wrote a long post about Mr. Carrey’s op-ed. Discounting whether or not his evidence as presented is valid (for the record, it’s not), his op-ed is full of fallacies. Real ones, not like the one you’re claiming here. Regardless of whether or not his premise is correct, he brings *nothing* to the table with this piece, as it is literally of negative value. This is not something that requires an expert to debunk, *any* person who has taken a college level logic class can find gaping holes in his propositions.

    If you want to contribute to the discussion, bring useful information to the table. I read this:

    > Our infant mortality rate is up, our Autism rate is up our literacy rate
    > is down, the predictable longevity for our children is down, the
    > nutritional value of our food is down and our liberty has sunk to a low
    > that has never before occurred in the history of our country.

    … and I agree with large parts of it (“our liberty” is certainly being curtailed, but at the moment children are still free to be children and aren’t working their butts off in coal mines, so I think we’re still quite a bit better off than 1900). NONE of this is germane to the current conversation. NONE of this has anything to do with whether or not vaccines, as a class, are safe.

    Certainly, one can state that there are historical cases of individual big pharma companies making fraudulent decisions for profit. There exists no social organization in the history of mankind, including armies, corporations, governments, churches, charities, universities, clans, tribes, homeowner associations, fire departments, guilds …*whatever* that can claim a spotless record of keeping out venal individuals that corrupt the body. That does not mean that vaccines, as a class, are not safe. It does mean that we should regulate our pharmaceutical industry (yes, impose upon their freedom!) to make sure that they follow basic safety rules and processes.

    > That goes for every parent that has witnessed the change in their
    > child immediately after a vaccine or shortly thereafter.

    This actually *is* a fallacy, a post hoc ergo propter hoc. There is a simple reason why this is not relevant, take the following facts…

    * children take vaccines
    * autism displays its first symptoms in childhood
    * children under the age of 5 make up ~7% of the population
    * there are ~360 million people in the U.S.
    * about 80% of children are vaccinated entirely

    This means 360 x 0.07 x .8 = 2 million children (roughly) have been vaccinated. With the vaccination schedule being what it is, then, there are somewhere around 100,000 children getting a shot every month (that last one is handwavy, it assumes a lot about frequency distributions, but that’s not really germane to my point). Autism rates are estimated at anywhere between 1 in 100 and 1 in 150 children, that means we have about 17,000 diagnosis of autism. If every single one of those autism diagnosis was given to a vaccinated child (they’re not, but again for our sake here it introduces very small error), and those 17,000 have a scatter distribution of vaccination patterns, that means not one, not dozens, not hundreds, but *thousands* of those diagnosis came within days or weeks of a vaccination.

    Put those thousands of people together on a message board (and since autism is hard to deal with, a very high percentage of these family *do* bond together, like SMA sufferers or MS or cancer or any other family-impacting disease), you’ll have a few thousand people all saying to each other, “Gee… MY kid got a shot right before her symptoms started showing, too! There are thousands of us! THAT CAN’T BE A COINCIDENCE.”

    But you can see, it actually *isn’t* a coincidence… it’s exactly what we would expect to happen.

    >There is a complicated web of deception.

    I quote my own post on this topic here: “… please provide me some credible evidence that profit-driven motives of companies can bypass the FDA, the CDC, and the medical research community in a systemic manner. I am not looking for one or two or three cases of malfeasance here; you are asserting a massive, pervasive conspiracy across several different organizations. Where’s the whistleblowers? If the NSA cannot keep a wiretapping program secret, why should I assume that several companies can somehow manage to implement such a wide-reaching conspiracy without dozens of leaks?”

  286. Pieter Kok

    @John Best: So by implication you’re OK with vaccines that do not have thimerasol? Just so I “get my facts straight”.

  287. Pieter,
    You’re trying to put words in my mouth when you should be thanking me for improving your knowledge of the subject. Pointing out your error does not imply anything at all about any other possible problem with vaccines.

    However, I will state that it is absolutely stupid to try to prevent anyone from catching rubella or mumps as children since having those diseases prevents damage that can occur when they are caught as adults. And, as we all know, the vaccines don’t do what they are supposed to do. People who’ve been vaccinated against measles and whooping cough catch those diseases all the time.

  288. John, where did I lie, pray tell?

  289. John, lest I forget, “deny our children their Constitutional right to their Pursuit of Happiness”. In what way?

    I just claim my right to be an expert on autism because I am a parent of an autist. That is nonsense but the Mother Warriors et al of the anti-vax movement (hi, Jenny) claim the same, by stating, in various ways, that parents know better than doctors (until such time they find a doctor that agrees with them).
    The only actual claim I would make in reality is that I’m able to observe symptoms. To make medical claims from that over the level of a common flu is dangerous.

    Besides that, given what I said about me knowing the claims of anti-vax, am I, in your eyes, knowingly hurting my children by vaccinating them at my government’s advised schedule? Should I be prosecuted? Or am I (here’s is your friendly cop-out) just deluded by big pharma? May I claim insanity?

  290. Erwin,
    Since stupdiity is not a crime, you can’t be blamed for obeying doctors who lie to you. As it could be considered insane to listen to doctors after you’ve been informed that they are lying to you, it’s possible you could be declared an unfit parent. That would be up to a judge.

    Some doctors told us the truth, namely Verstraeten and Geier, so it’s not a matter of finding a doc who agrees with us, it’s a matter of finding one who’s honest.

    You deny kids Pursuit of Happiness when you poison them into a brain damaged state and refuse to cure them because the cure proves the vaccines caused the brain damage.

  291. Pieter Kok

    John Best, you really don’t get it, do you. Here’s a basic breakdown:
    10 Autism is cured by chelation (your words, not mine)
    20 chelation is a treatment for heavy metal poisoning (HMP)
    30 therefore, autism is caused by HMP (according to you, by logical implication)
    40 vaccines cause autism (again, your words)
    50 therefore, the heavy metals in the vaccine (i.e., mercury) must be the culprit
    60 oh wait, most (thank you) vaccines no longer contain mercury
    70 goto 10

  292. My day just has been made :)

  293. You people just love to clutch at straws using bogus logic, don’t you?
    Just because some of the thimerosal has been reduced doesn’t mean a lot. Giving it to fetuses is the important thing here, Peter. How convenient of you to forget to address that.

  294. John S.

    @Todd

    No problem. But let me suggest something. It is dangerous to be so caught up in something, or cheer for one side or another so strongly, that one loses objectivity (or for that matter gets caught up in people bashing because they happen to be successful and have an opinion that is not mainstream). Let’s remind ourselves that vaccine manufacturers are corporations, and as corporations their objective is to make a profit, regardless of health. What this means is that if they can get away with a few deaths, get away with it, and still make a profit they will (it’s called acceptable risk). So can you trust a vaccine manufacturer to do what is best for public health, or best for profits?? Why don’t we take a look at what other companies involved in producing health products have done. How about….Merck. Let’s take a look at Vioxx. Do you honestly believe that Merck didn’t know about the side effects of their drug, or do you think they thought the risk to public health was acceptable? What about researchers that were concerned about the drug and it’s side effects. Let’s just say that internal emails reveal that Merck wanted to “neutralize” or “discredit” researchers with negative opinions/ findings http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25272600-2702,00.html. So can producers of health products be trusted to make decisions in favor of public health-definitely not; profit over health always. So what else is interesting about thimerosal? Well, let’s see. It is metabolized into ethyl mercury and thiosalicylate. So what is thiosalicylate. Ever heard of acetylsalicylic acid (AKA Aspirin)? Ever heard of Reye’s Syndrome (it’s why we don’t give our kids under the age 19 and with a viral infection aspirin anymore). So is thiosalicylate contraindicated for pediatric patients with infections-yes-http://www.drugs.com/drug-interactions/flumist_d04892_sodium-thiosalicylate_d00844.html. Of course the example given is for live influenza; however, whose to say that it needs to be a live virus in order to cause the conditions needed to generate Reye’s syndrome, since the exact cause and mechanisms behind the syndrome are unknown. Hmmm, so here we are eliciting immune reactions in infants in the presence of ethyl mercury and a drug, thiosalicylate, whose chemical cousin is known to interact with viral infections to generate Reyes syndrome. Interestingly enough, the liver and brain are the most affected in children with Reye’s syndrome. So then, isn’t it a possibility that at low doses ethyl mercury, thiosalicylate, and the immune reaction generated by the introduction of inactivated viral antigens can act synergistically to harm the CNS of an infant? What balance of the three would you need to generate enough damage to the CNS that it is assayable? As for the safety of vaccines-I’m sure that some are and some are not. Remember, the polio vaccine was initially contaminated with SV40 virus, which has links to cancer. Also, anyone ever remember the Swine flu scare in 1976 in Ft. Dix. Well it’s noteworthy that this caused the vaccination of approx. 40 million people. The vaccination program was later abandoned because of 500 cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, which “coincidentally” happens to afflict a lot of girls given the HPV vaccine (Gardasil). As a caution though, don’t believe everything that you read, even if it is peer-reviewed. Remember everyone has their own agenda, motivation, and in the case of researchers, their sugar daddy that provides them with funding to carry out their research. Lastly, how could anyone believe a government or their agencies, when they hire those that generate crises to fix them???http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200905/imf-advice

  295. Mark Hansen

    @John Best.
    …However, I will state that it is absolutely stupid to try to prevent anyone from catching rubella or mumps as children since having those diseases prevents damage that can occur when they are caught as adults…

    That will come as something of a surprise to parents of kids blinded, rendered sterile, or killed by measles, mumps and rubella.

    And, as we all know, the vaccines don’t do what they are supposed to do. People who’ve been vaccinated against measles and whooping cough catch those diseases all the time.

    Got some citations for that? I was vaccinated against measles and whooping cough. Didn’t catch either. My wife was also vaccinated. She didn’t get them either. Our daughter was vaccinated against them too. Guess what? She didn’t catch measles or whooping cough. Neither have any of her friends. So, no, we don’t all know that vaccines don’t do what they’re supposed to.

  296. Mark,
    I mentioned mumps and rubella. When you have no argument to make versus my words, your only option was to add in “measles” where it doesn’t belong to support your dishonest position.

    I’m sure you’d point out children killed by measles. If you want to be honest, you’d have to include the fact that some of those children WERE vaccinated.

    I had measles and whooping cough. Guess what, they were no big deal. Neither were rubella, mumps or chicken pox. Your arguments that promote these diseases as something that we should be concerned with is just plain stupid. All these minor childhood diseases do is make your immune system stronger. The only one that is slightly dangerous is measles, and maybe whooping cough for infants. Vaccinating against the others is ridiculous. It’s only for profit.

  297. All these minor childhood diseases do is make your immune system stronger. The only one that is slightly dangerous is measles, and maybe whooping cough for infants. Vaccinating against the others is ridiculous. It’s only for profit.

    *groan* I can see why Orac banned John…

  298. Mike C.

    Again I put this and no one responds they just continue arguing amongst themselves. Now you guys are talking efficacy. Well showing antibodies produced does not equate to immunity. Until the studies are done correctly, which they never will be, no one can say if they do or do not work. End of story, show the real research, It does not exist. Everyone in here can fight back and forth, but until the true science has been done (randomly controlled trials) it is all opinions and best case guesses on effectiveness. Nothing more nothing less.

    Continue your bickering.

  299. @ Mike C.

    > Well showing antibodies produced does not equate to immunity.
    > Until the studies are done correctly, which they never will be,
    > no one can say if they do or do not work

    Er, no.

    Epidemiology is a well established science. The validation methodologies are well supported. If I give 80% of a population a vaccine and I see no measurable drop in disease rate, then I can reasonably say it doesn’t work. If I see a measurable drop in disease rate, then I can reasonably say it *does* work. There are numerous mechanisms to control for contributing factors.

    Anyone who would say that this isn’t “true science” is the same sort of person who will insist that just because the sun came up in the east for the last 6,000 years, that’s insufficient to say that it will come up in the east tomorrow.

  300. Elaine McKillop

    For anyone who wants to say that I have lost my grip on reality, that I am woo woo or a “conspiracy theorist”, any claim I make can, I can back up with facts. I defend Dr. Wakefield because this is what he was up against. Read this article. Isn’t Jim Carrey being attacked by the Big Pharma hit squad as well?

    Vioxx maker Merck and Co drew up doctor hit list.
    The email, which came out in the Federal Court in Melbourne yesterday as part of a class action against the drug company, included the words “neutralize”, “neutralized” or “discredit” against some of the doctors’ names.

    It is also alleged the company used intimidation tactics against critical researchers, including dropping hints it would stop funding to institutions and claims it interfered with academic appointments.

    “We may need to seek them out and destroy them where they live,” a Merck employee wrote, according to an email excerpt read to the court by Julian Burnside QC, acting for the plaintiff.

    Merck & Co and its Australian subsidiary, Merck, Sharpe and Dohme, are being sued for compensation by more than 1000 Australians, who claim they suffered heart attacks or strokes as a result of Vioxx.
    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25272600-2702,00.html

    P.S. Block and Todd are Big Pharma Plants. Creepy isn’t it?

  301. HCN

    drksky said “*groan* I can see why Orac banned John…”

    Believe it or not, it took more idiocy and heartlessness than he has shown here. As I said, only two people have been banned from Orac’s blog… John was the first. Ignore John Best, he is not worth the electrons.

  302. Mark Hansen

    John, vaccines make your immune system able to fight off the disease without getting the disease. Why get the disease in the first place? And, yes, some children that are vaccinated can get the disease. It isn’t 100% effective as is the case with all treatments. If your vaccination rates are high enough, the amount of ineffective vaccinations is countered by herd immunity.
    You’d better check up on the side effects of mumps. One is sterility. It’s also one of the diseases you listed. So watch your dishonesty call-outs.

  303. Pieter Kok

    “the sun came up in the east for the last 6,000 years”

    LOL, are you a closet creationist?

  304. Debora,
    Mr. Doherty’s views represent his own, NOT “Canada’s”.

  305. Mark,
    You have to get the mumps as an adult to become sterile from them. The good part of that is you can’t have your life destroyed by autism when Pharma mangles your kids’ brain.

    Was it honest of you to omit those facts?

    How about the fact that thimerosal causes brain damage to 1 in 6 kids? Yup, ADD is just more brain damage so you have to include that.

    HCN,
    Orac banned me because he was sick of me blowing up his stupid arguments. He used the lame excuse that I wasn’t concerned enough when his dumb dog got cancer.

  306. Elaine McKillop

    I thought it would be an interesting part of this discussion to inform the public that the manufacturers of a vaccine, Gardasil, by Merck that has now been injected into millions of young girls with thousands of side effect and tragically 42 death, that this company Merck has a hit list of doctors that they intimidate for not agreeing with the claimed safety of their drugs. Obviously celebrities like Jim Carrey would face the same fate; he would be targeted, just like a doctor with an opposing view. Isn’t that what you are doing, targeting him? Where did you get your marching orders? My first post told you that there are leaks in your “wall of denial”. We have Dr. Biederman being disgraced in Congressional hearings and we have this interesting case in Australia exposing Merck’s dirty little secrets. Why haven’t you published my post?

    Milanda Rout | April 01, 2009
    Article from: The Australian

    AN international drug company made a hit list of doctors who had to be “neutralized” or discredited because they criticized the anti-arthritis drug the pharmaceutical giant produced.

    Staff at US company Merck &Co emailed each other about the list of doctors – mainly researchers and academics – who had been negative about the drug Vioxx or Merck and a recommended course of action.

    The email, which came out in the Federal Court in Melbourne yesterday as part of a class action against the drug company, included the words “neutralize”, “neutralized” or “discredit” against some of the doctors’ names.

    It is also alleged the company used intimidation tactics against critical researchers, including dropping hints it would stop funding to institutions and claims it interfered with academic appointments.

    “We may need to seek them out and destroy them where they live,” a Merck employee wrote, according to an email excerpt read to the court by Julian Burnside QC, acting for the plaintiff.

  307. Todd W.

    @debora

    i know you do not believe the conversion of ethyl mercury to methyl mercury, but it does happen, suggest get that manual from your beloved cdc and nih titled “toxitoxicological profile for mercury update”.

    I took a look at the Toxicological Profile for Mercury Update (available in PDF form at atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp46.pdf – just add www to the beginning). I could not find anywhere in there where it is stated that ethylmercury converts to methylmercury. There was some stuff about methylmercury converting to inorganic mercury. Furthermore, the only mentions of ethylmercury in that document were high-dose exposures (~10mg/kg). In those cases (and this was for ethylmercury p-toluene sulfonanilide), the symptoms displayed (vomiting, irregular pulse, bradycardia, elongation of the Q-T interval, diarrhea, deep ekeletal pain, muscle witching, skin lesions, etc.) are inconsistent with autism. So, perhaps you can provide a page reference where you found that ethylmercury can convert into methylmercury.

    tell that idiot that mercury does build up , ill cite pages on that manual, when i am done with work today

    Mercury can build up in the body with repeated exposures. However, it does not replicate like bacteria. If a person is exposed to mercury while they still have mercury in their system, then the overall level of mercury in their body increases. The more frequent the exposure, the faster the build-up. But the actual mercury itself does not divide like a bacteria. It does not infiltrate cells like a virus, using the cell’s DNA to replicate.

    but an 8lb-22 lb baby can not take that much thimerosol, aluminum and other toxic brew
    since 2001 thimerosol was diluted not removed, feel sorry for the poeple that did not see my vaccine ingredients, that was put out by the govt . as well.

    See my initial post regarding aluminum exposure. As for thimerosal, technically, yes, it was diluted out of the final product, which is why I said that only trace amounts remain. Futhermore, some vaccines, like MMR do not and have never had thimerosal in them. Overall thimerosal exposure from vaccines is lower now than at any previous time in the robust vaccination program’s history.

    the gardasil report from the govt says over 9,748 adverse reports in the usa, illl senmd you that update. there is no way that 11,000 young girls and women were in gardasil study, that was a hoax, send me that study if you have it please?

    First, an important thing to keep in mind is that VAERS takes any and all reports of adverse event, whether or not the AE is causally related to the vaccine. That means that there can be a significant proportion of AEs that have absolutely nothing to do with the vaccine.

    As to the number enrolled in the investigational study of Gardasil, it was an estimated 11,500. The study info is available at clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00092534?term=gardasil&recr=Closed&rank=17. You can find other studies, as well, at the clinicaltrials.gov web site. Now, if you think it was a hoax, please provide the info that supports that claim.

    there are only 2 vaccines that are necessary, (if that) but with a combination or real herbs, that are known for over 200 years and a good md with homeopathy background, that is safer, that a schedule of over 78 vaccines in the course of a child’s 1st 12 years.

    What two vaccines are the only ones that are necessary? Why are those the only two? And as far as total number of shots received, here are the numbers, following the CDC’s recommended schedule:

    Age 0 through 6 years:
    HepB – 3 shots
    Rotavirus – 2 shots
    DTaP – 4 shots
    HiB – 2 shots
    PCV- 3 shots
    IPV (polio) – 2 shots
    MMR – 2 shots
    Varicella – 2 shots
    HepA – 2 shots
    Influenza – 6 shots (yearly, recommended, but not required)
    Total through Age 6: 28 (if flu is included)

    Age 7 years through 18 years:
    Tdap – 1 shot
    HPV – 3 shots (girls only at present)
    MCV – 1 shot
    Influenza – 12 shots (yearly, recommended, ut not required)
    Total age 6 through 18 years: 17 (if flu and HPV both included)

    Grand total shots received through age 18: 45 (if all flu shots and HPV received)

    That number is significantly less than what you are saying is the number. I’d like to know the source for your figure. Furthermore, the total number of shots can be reduced by using combo vaccines that include multiple vaccines in a single dose.

    A quick note on alternative medicines (herbals, homeopathy, etc.). The primary reasons I do not trust them are as follows:

    * They are not regulated, which means that the manufacturers are not required to demonstrate either efficacy or safety. Pharmaceuticals, on the other hand, must demonstrate both of these.
    * There is very little in the way of properly controlled scientific studies on alternative medicines. Many of the studies that have been done were either flawed or showed no significant effects. There are studies, however, showing the risk of adverse reactions and bad interactions with medicines (e.g., reducing the efficacy of cardiac medicines or contraceptives).

  308. Todd W.

    @Elaine McKillop

    If Merck is found guilty of having taken such unethical actions against those doctors in a court, then they should be rightly punished. However, those actions do not speak to the facts of whether or not a vaccine works or is safe.

    Here’s the problem with the anti-vax camp. You produce a lot of opinion pieces and newspaper articles, but actual science is noticably lacking. The common excuse for this is that there is some vast worldwide conspiracy to silence scientists that find contradicting data. That simply is not true. Take Vioxx as an example. When it was licensed, there were a number of studies published that raised concerns about its safety. Yes, Merck was wrong in denying any of the risks associated, but scientists were publishing data that showed what those risks were. It was because of those studies that Vioxx was targetted by FDA for corrective action.

    There are products that get approved when they shouldn’t. But, there are plenty of scientists eager to take a closer look at those products, and problems, if there are any, are usually revealed in pretty short order.

    Unless you can produce some actual evidence of a conspiracy, I suggest dropping that line of argument, as all it amounts to currently is your own personal opinion. The result is that you appear as being paranoid, rather than justified.

  309. Todd W.

    @Mike C.

    until the true science has been done (randomly controlled trials) it is all opinions and best case guesses on effectiveness.

    Can you give us some more detail on what you think would constitute a proper study of efficacy which has not already been done? Keep in mind that certain ethics must be adhered to (e.g., The Declaration of Helsinki).

  310. HCN

    John Best showing how much of a liar he is said: “Orac banned me because he was sick of me blowing up his stupid arguments. He used the lame excuse that I wasn’t concerned enough when his dumb dog got cancer.”

    Actually, all one has to do is go back to the death of dog posting and note that your comments were removed for being stupid, vile and insulting. Basically showing you in all your true colors as a clueless heartless sociopath liar.

  311. HCN,
    As all of Orac’s drivel regarding autism shows that he is a clueless, heartless, sociopathic lying scoundrel who supports the poisoning of our children, and even goes so far as to lie about treatments that can cure them, sane people can conclude that he richly deserved whatever comments were aimed at him regarding his dumb dog.

  312. Elaine McKillop

    Todd, do not characterize the newspaper article I posted as an “opinion piece”. It is a piece written about a class action litigation that is being played out in Australia in Federal Court in Melbourne against Merck by people who were injured by Vioxx. This is evidence presented in court under extream scrutiny for its truthfulness. Don’t insult everyone’s intelligence; don’t try to act as though you do not get the implication and how it relates to the disparagement of Jim Carrey being played out right here. Get a grip Todd, Big Pharma and all their henchmen are going down, the truth is winning, there are more angry parents then can be controlled. We will not stand to have our children damaged and have the offenders get away with the lies, intimidation and denial of their responsibility. We wont be “neutralized”.

  313. Mike C.

    @ Mike

    Since certain ethics must be followed the research can not be done therefore actual immunity can not be determined. It’s a guess, no matter how much Patrick wants to insult me with his sun example. It does not change that it is still a guess.

    @ Patrick
    “then I can reasonably say it *does* work” that is all you got?? Reasonably LOL

    Love how you pick and choose which standards you choose to follow, based on what research is available rather than definitive proof. I can “reasonably say” that no matter what I say, you will toss logic out the window and resort to insults. Hope you feel good about yourself.

  314. a w

    I am no politician. Nor am I the parent of an autistic child. I am, though, a survivor of a vaccine preventable disease that left me with permanent organ failure, amputation of both legs and some fingertips, and MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN MEDICAL COSTS. I wake up every day to taking 21 pills a day, scars covering my body, and the fact that I may never be able to have children. No one even really understands how I survived. I love my life and have adapted to it well, but I cannot help but be infuriated by the anti-vaccine movement. I would never wish what happened to me or any illness on even my worst enemy, including autism. I am a student of biology and I have read extensively all of the evidence for and against links between vaccines and autism. Yes, vaccines do have risks, but I am thoroughly convinced that autism is not one of the risks of vaccinating your children. Please know that vaccines have been called one of the greatest accomplishments in public health in this century, and rightfully so. They have saved more lives in our time than all of the other public health measures combined. As far as doctors or Pharma somehow financially benefiting from mass vaccination… that is an unlikely speculation. Doctors don’t even usually get reimbursed the full cost of the vaccines they administer– they routinely lose money either because of low reimbursement or because of having to discard unused, expired vaccines. Pharma… well, this is how I figure it: If someone is vaccinated against a disease… lets use me as an example… my vaccine would have cost approximately $100. While I was initially ill, I was given tens of thousands of dollars of medications– including one that was in excess of $5000.00 per dose. I now take thousands of dollars worth of medication PER MONTH!!! Isn’t pharma making more money due to the fact that I was NOT vaccinated??? If money is the bottom line, it does not seem to be in the best interest of pharma or doctors to vaccinate. Think of all of the medical care and medication it would take to treat survivors of vaccine preventable illnesses… that is where pharma and doctors would truly make money. For decades, both pharma and health practitioners saw firsthand the devastation that was left behind from vaccine preventable diseases and chose to do what was in the best interest of the public. The thing is that most vaccine preventable illnesses are mild… but there is a percentage of people in which a mild illness turns into a catastrophic disease process and unfortunately doctors cannot always predict what the risk factors are that make the difference. I was in the best physical shape of my life when I got sick… no risk factors for almost dying from a bacteria that is commonly carried by 10% of people. I later found out that my best friend, who was a normal, healthy child- almost died from chickenpox! I am truly sorry that autism exists period, but I must say that I think people should stick to the scientific evidence that vaccines are safe and effective. I also think that the time and money spent by the anti-vaccine movement would be better put to use in researching the true cause of autism!

  315. Elaine McKillop

    For all of you who want to wine about getting sick or someone they know getting sick because they were not vaccinated, to damn bad, it has nothing to do with my choice. I do not have to be a member of your “herd”. As far as I know the Constitution is not a collectivist document. Individual liberty is still the prevailing legal theory in this land. People are always going to die, some sooner, some later. Life is not safe and never will be. The issue that Jim Carrey stands for is the proposition that vaccines are not safe and they need to be made safer. To say that he is in love with disease is propaganda right out of Hitler’s bag of dirty tricks when Hitler compared Jews to rats in the streets to demonize them. The Holocaust was an evil mark on history and now it is happening again, our children are under attack. . Do you trust the drug companies that supplied the gas for the chambers? They are still around. The pharmaceutical companies have been caught bribing, intimidating, targeting those that question their disinformation and lying. Research is corrupted the government is corrupted, the media is bought and paid for, it is only we the people that can defend our children and we damn well better do so!

  316. Mark Hansen

    HCN, I apologise. You were right. It is a waste of electrons.

  317. For all of you who want to wine about getting sick or someone they know getting sick because they were not vaccinated, to damn bad, it has nothing to do with my choice.

    Actually, it has everything to do with your choice. You letting your little disease bombs run around in public is a health hazard, plain and simple. Way to be all about me me me.

    and…

    …you’re comparing vaccination to the holocaust?

  318. Elaine McKillop

    Sorry Buddy! I do not feel any obligation to live my life for your benefit. That is a type of enslavement. My children are not your sacrificial lambs. If you think that my unvaccinated child is the cause of disease outbreaks you are delusional. Statistically, more vaccinated people get the disease they were vaccinated for then unvaccinated people spread disease. Besides my contention is that vaccines are neither safe nor effective. They are not going to protect 100% no matter what. Historically look at what happened to Native Americans when Europeans came here. Native Americans were killed off by measles. The reason why Europeans were not as severely affected is that over generations we became more resistant and the disease had a milder effect. The more we vaccinate, the more we destroy natural immunity until such time that there will be no natural immunity. Isn’t that what the drug companies want? I think so. (By the way please do not bore me with the argument that immunity is immunity, vaccinations are as good as natural exposure. It is simply not true) Ever here of Kary Mullis? He is developing an entirely new way to become immune to disease. This debate may be over when we have a safe alternative.

  319. Davidlpf

    Elaine Mckillop

    “Historically look at what happened to Native Americans when Europeans came here. Native Americans were killed off by measles. The reason why Europeans were not as severely affected is that over generations we became more resistant and the disease had a milder effect.”

    There were millions of europeans killed through outbreeaks of different diseases like the plague. Ok the ones that survived did have an immunity but Europe lost something like a thrid to 2/3 the population due to one illness. So now you are willing to kill millions so your personnal agenda can be be satisfied, dream on.

  320. Elaine McKillop

    David, if that was a coherent statement I could possibly respond to it. Throwing out a thought that is irrational does not say much for your intellect. Take your meds and try to focus. The discussion on this page is the unjustified defamation of Jim Carrey because he has taken the stand that vaccines need to be safer. It is an absolute leap into mindlessness that Jim Carrey is “pro disease” as in your Hitler style propaganda chant and it is mind boggling stupidity to accuse me of wanting millions to die. My utopian goal is to live in a country that has a government that is for the people and would not legislate away liberty and power that rightfully belongs to the people. My utopian government would not stand hand and hand with tyrants, who I identify as multinational corporations such as the pharmaceutical cartel and Monsanto to name a few, that put greed before human life. It is the boob tube brainwashed masses that cannot think for them selves that cannot see what is in front of their face. Mothers in third world countries hide their children when the vaccine witch doctors come to town. (Indonesia recently destroyed 9million doses of Ted Turner purchased vaccines because they do not trust a guy who thinks depopulation is a good idea.) They get the “coincidence” of what happens to their babies. In one reported third world story, after about twenty vaccinated children got sick, the town went to the school and started stoning the vaccinators. The police were called, when they heard what happened they joined the parents with the stoning. Although I believe in the judicial system, sometimes it is satisfying to see instant justice.

  321. @Elaine McKillop

    do not characterize the newspaper article I posted as an “opinion piece”.

    I did not characterize it as an opinion piece. If you go back and read my post again, you’ll find I said “You produce a lot of opinion pieces and newspaper articles, but actual science is noticably lacking.” You don’t provide scientific evidence to support your claims. That makes your claims, for all intents and purposes, meaningless. If you could provide some science, then we have something to talk about.

    My children are not your sacrificial lambs.

    My friends, family and children are not your sacrificial lambs, either. When people don’t vaccinate, they put at risk everyone with whom they come in contact.

    If you think that my unvaccinated child is the cause of disease outbreaks you are delusional.

    In California, recently, there was a measles outbreak. It was started by a person who was not vaccinated and spread to other kids who were not vaccinated. In Germany in 2006, there was a measles outbreak among a population where about 86% were not vaccinated. Two of those who were not vaccinated, infants, suffered measles-induced encephalitis and died. So, tell me again how your unvaccinated kid is not a risk for spreading disease.

    Statistically, more vaccinated people get the disease they were vaccinated for then unvaccinated people spread disease.

    Do you have a source for those statistics, or is this just an opinion you read or made up? Support your claims.

    Besides my contention is that vaccines are neither safe nor effective.

    Okay. Care to provide us with some properly controlled studies that show that they a) are not safe and b) are not effective? You’ll need to do this for every vaccine, since you claim that absolutely none are safe or effective.

    They are not going to protect 100% no matter what.

    Nope. And no one ever said they do or that they would. This is why herd immunity is important, so that those for whom the vaccine doesn’t work, as well as those who are too young for them, allergic to an adjuvant in the vaccine or whose immune systems are compromised (e.g., transplant recipients, AIDS patients, elderly, etc.), do not get exposed to the disease.

    The more we vaccinate, the more we destroy natural immunity until such time that there will be no natural immunity.

    But how? I thought you said that vaccines didn’t work, which means they shouldn’t have any effect on immunity.

    Ever here of Kary Mullis? He is developing an entirely new way to become immune to disease.

    I haven’t heard of him, but would be interested in hearing more about what he’s working on. Do you have some links that give a good synopsis?

    This debate may be over when we have a safe alternative.

    I doubt it. No medicine is 100% safe; there are always risks involved. Because of this, no matter what is done to improve the safety of drugs, there will always be people crying out against them and making unsupported links between the drug and some illness.

  322. @Elaine McKillop

    that put greed before human life.

    Still going on with that? Even after “a w” showed that companies would make much, much more money if we did not vaccinate? And what about alternative medicine companies, who don’t even bother to spend the money testing their products in clinical trials for safety and efficacy? Certainly they are free from any greed.

    Simply put, while certain individuals within a company may be greedy, businesses (of any sort) need to make a profit so that they can increase production, increase research, and afford the resources to, y’know, make sure that their facilities are kept clean and that their products are checked for quality.

    Also, if pharmaceutical companies are so greedy and just in it to make people sick so they can make more money, then I’m assuming that you do not ever take any FDA-approved medicines. If you need to go to the doctor, you refuse all anesthesia and drugs, right? Oh, and those medical tools (monitors, scalpels, etc.), you won’t let them use any of those, right? After all, the companies that make all of that are just greedy and don’t care at all about human life.

    Speaking of which, such an approach to business would actually be a piss poor way of doing business. I mean, if you don’t have any regard to human life, then you wouldn’t care about the safety or quality of any product, which would open the company up to such amounts of litigation that they would be forced out of business by the law suits, if the government didn’t shut them down first. So, just from a logical perspective, your argument makes no sense.

    As far as Jenny McCarthy and Jim Carrey (and the rest) are concerned, while their mantra may be to make “safer vaccines”, their message is to not vaccinate. Jenny McCarthy, with Jim sitting right next to her, even said on national television that she thinks it’s a good idea if all of these diseases make a comeback. Tell me again how that is not being pro-disease?

  323. Elaine McKillop

    Jim and Jenny make sense to me. Here is a tiny fraction of the damage: VAERS ID 38820 Baby boy aged 2.4 months died 1 day after receiving OPV, HIBV, DPT on 9/14/91. Patient was found dead in crib about 24 hours post receiving DTP/OPV/HIB.

    VAERS ID 40309 Baby boy died one day after receiving DTP, HIBV,OPV on 3/13/92. Patient received vaccines on 3/13/92 and expired on 3/14/92 at 12:35 PM. Patient had seizure prior to expiring.

    VAERS ID 41033 Patient died after receiving Hepatitis B vaccine. At time of report, cause of death was unknown. No further details were provided.

    VAERS ID 41081 Baby boy aged 6 month died 1 day after receiving DTP,HIBV,OPV on 3/13/92. Patient received DTP/OPV/HIB on 3/13/92 and had no symptoms post vaccination. Slept that evening and awoke next morning; ate well and later in morning was put down for nap; patient stiffened and appeared to have a seizure; March 14 was taken to ER dead on arrival.

    VAERS ID 42901 Baby girl aged 2.4 months died 0 days after receiving HIBV on 5/28/92. Patient received vaccine on 5/28/92 at 2 PM and at 5:30 Pm had fever of 103.4. MD recommended APAP and sponge bath via phone. May 29 fever of 101; no other symptoms. May 30 at 5 AM temperature normal found dead in crib at 6:30 AM. Autopsy being performed.

    VAERS ID 43104 Baby boy aged 4.8 months died 1 day after receiving DTP,HIBV,OPV on 6/8/92. Found dead in crib; well baby visit for vaccine on June 8.

    VAERS ID 43165 Baby boy aged 4.8 months died 0 days after receiving HIBV,OPV,DTP on 6/8/92. Patient received HIB/OPV/DTP on June 8, 1992 at 10 AM and 3:30 PM. Temperature 101 and local reaction: APAP given by MD; put down to sleep; found dead in crib at 7 AM on June 9, 1992 estimated time of death between 4-5 AM; Autopsy being performed.

    VAERS ID 51417 Baby girl aged 10.8 months died 3 days after receiving DPT,HIBV on 2/25/93. She also had a time test placed that day-no reaction per parents. Patient was found dead in crib; was stable at time of exam and parent report no apparent illness prior to death; no fever, no local reaction to vaccine noted by parents; MD felt possible arrhythmia.

    VAERS ID 51973 Female child died 9 days after receiving HIBV on 3/31/91. Plaintiff alleges that as a direct result of a HIB shot administered on Mar. 13, 1991 a previously healthy child died on March 22, 1991.

    VAERS ID 57467 Baby boy aged 2.4 months died 1 day after receiving HIBV,HEP,DPT, OPV on 11/9/93. Fever, generalized seizure two times 19 hours later.

  324. todd

    complementary/alternative medicine (cam) has been proven, they have many colleges and universities that teach that discipline, to include accupuncture, rolfing (deep massage) homeopathy, herbs, rekai etc.
    also note they teach a far better course on nutrition, while in all medical schools , they only have about an hour. and they teach a far better anatomy and physiology , which is the root of all medicine. this i know is true , i have several friends that are mds , and some that started as allopaths that switched to cam. nha dlet’s not forget doctors of osteopaths which are equal to medical doctors. same courses, differnt thoughts.
    remember , alternative medicine treats the whole body and prevention,
    where western medicine , loooks towards the big fix of the magic pill or “vaccine” or jsut cut it out surgically.
    one example that comes to mind is chemotherapy, when oncologists were asked would they take the same said treatment, there was a resounding no!
    i find it odd in most chemo treatments they also give baking soda and vitamin c. //baking soda does have some great medicinal attributes.
    but to see that chemo tratments , are using baking soda more often reflects, the need for usage of cam medicine, since allopathic (western medicine does not work alone for efficacy.

    as i asked i wish to see your vaccine supporters, prove that these vaccines are safe and even work to do the task that was intended.
    giving or administering antibodies /antigens does not guarantee immunity.
    and i find it incredible that with the “swine flu ” patients (documented and confirmed) these idiot doctors are giving antiobiotic therapy for 2 weeks to them?
    we already discussed antibiotics cant destroy viruses or vice versa.
    and yes it is fact that doctors all over the country are giving antibiotics for diagnosed “swine flu”
    go to woai news in texas
    or check out the today show. the ascting director for the cdc is truly a rectal cavity.
    remember they fired gerdering, highly unlikely theyll find a good one.
    and remember the cdc is the same government watchdog that said its ok to have a little melamine in the contaminated baby formulas.
    and i do have that article from the cdc from last november.
    while the chinese parents, that lost many of their children due to melamine in dried milk products, either kidney failure or death. these parents “flamed’ the chines government on the internet, and the chinese govt. did not retalliate. this is the same govt that tried to hide it during the olympics.

  325. todd, btw and hcn
    the arguement on ethyl mercury conversion to methyl mercury is being petty.
    my doctor and my dentist, both respected and still working , stated that was why i was so sick with heavy mercury burden due to methyl mercury conversion.
    just because the government, does not wish to report and document , does not mean it does not exist. why you say, because hmos, our great public medical system do not want to pay, they rather prescrive antidepressants, antipsychotics and painklliers , the perception is cheaper and generic. btw i took none of that crap, i do not want to weigh over 200 lbs or have heart /liver complications ot get alzheimers later. nor were they prescribed to me. but many that have physical pain and insomnia as i did are prescribed that chit.
    i had to appeal to my hmo, regarding my mercury toxicity levels, the chelation approved immediately , the dental work, of course not,
    but my dental insurance paid half of the $6,000 bill for removing those 8 “silver ” fillings one crown filled with mercury filler ( all 50% mercury) once done , i was able to function and get back to work.

    and the cost of chelation was $120 for 18 months, real expensive, right?

    i used dmsa, the govt standard. there are gentler and safer products now.
    and no the chelation was not dangerous, it is the amount used according to body weight. the problem on chelation are the people that can not do the math, and calculate the dosage, that is why a doctor that is an expert in toxicolgy and understnading on heavy metal toxicity is waranted.
    there are thousnads of doctors that are good at that.
    the diet, supplements and vitamin c were also very helpful.
    total cost of treatment was including doctors , was total bill
    $700.
    in conclusion , end result from the mercury damage, was hypothyroidism and residula nerve damage to inner ear and neck, which lead to some difficulty with motor skills to my hands, was deemed ” arthritis” by a rheumatologist. i no longer have constant joint nad back pain or insomnia.
    hope that helps
    but elaine makes sense
    and you ask which 2 vaccines?
    i will tell you, once the government removes the thimerosol.
    and this is FACT, a clinic nurse next door , said that the only vaccines that are thimerosol free, are the new vaccines for babies up to 6 months of age. hse had to vaccinate thousands this winter.
    she said the rest have the offending ingredients that i have mentioned many times.
    i also noticed she was disheartened , that the facts i gave her, because the mmr is given at 15 months old,
    what elaine said is true, a perfectly healthy baby , tha tsuddenly shows asd, more than likely the mmr.
    if you think that not true, why does the government want to do single doses now?
    they are looking into it

  326. Elaine McKillop

    Did you ever hear of the Nobel Prize and PCR? http://www.answers.com/topic/kary-mullis

  327. @Elaine McKillop

    You can provide all manner of entries from VAERS. It isn’t a scientific database. What matters is the followup investigation of those incidents. See, the problem with VAERS is that any adverse event is recorded there, whether there is a causal connection or not. It can provide a basis for looking more closely at particular drugs, but it cannot be used to support a definitive claim that some product is bad. It has no controls, and therefore is not a scientific source.

    As an example, I could eat some food that was not good. The next day, I receive some medicine or vaccine. After that, the food poisoning takes effect (nausea, vomiting, etc.). Because the medicine/vaccine is a much more unusual occurrence, and therefore more memorable, it is therefore more likely for me to attribute my symptoms to the medicine or vaccine, and then report to VAERS that the medicine/vaccine cause nausea and vomiting, when it really didn’t. I hope that illustrates why VAERS is not a reliable source for adverse reaction data, and why controlled studies and investigation are necessary to establish an actual link.

    So, if you have information on the followup investigations to those incidents you found on VAERS, please share them.

  328. Calli Arcale

    debora:

    and no the mercury poisoning was from working in the hospital , dental amalgams was the second factor. had all offending amalgams removed before chelation procedure was started. and had to have 2mm of bone removed from left side of jawline because of said poisoning.

    Oh God . . . you’ve very likely been victimized. Every now and again, I read about a dentist getting his license revoked for that kind of stuff. It brings in money to do that kind of unnecessary oral surgery, but it exposes the patients to a fair bit of a risk. Ironically, one of the risks is mercury poisoning — drilling out an amalgam filling releases more vapor than would’ve been released over the entire lifetime of the filling.

    your question on vaxxing children, if the vaers , court has paid millions to plaintiffs. and i witness my specialed kids every day, there are other options. i will give them later when i have time. but an 8lb-22 lb baby can not take that much thimerosol, aluminum and other toxic brew
    since 2001 thimerosol was diluted not removed, feel sorry for the poeple that did not see my vaccine ingredients, that was put out by the govt . as well.

    This is just conspiracy-theory stuff. You’re claiming the government is intentionally hurting people. Why? How would they possibly profit? And what makes you so certain, despite the evidence others have posted, that babies really can’t handle that stuff? We’ve shown our evidence; you haven’t shown yours. I am not convinced that you are open minded. I am convinced that you have your mind made up, and are closed to all other possibilites.

    the swine flu , the only cure is colloidal silver, people are buying it in droves. colloidal silver ahs been around for over 200 yrs, so it is tried and true. also “natural living” herbs tinctures work

    WTF? Sure, lots of natural herbs work. What does that have to do with vaccines? And colloidal silver curing swine flu? I’d really love to see what your evidence for that is. Silver (colloidal or otherwise; the “colloidal” part is little more than a marketing ploy) is an effective antimicrobial. It’s too expensive to be used regularly for disinfection (iodine is a lot cheaper, though those with betadine allergies need to be careful), but it has some very interesting uses for keeping the surfaces of certain things clear of microbes. Catheters, for instance. And some hospitals have experimented with it for the surface of surgical trays. (Downside: in addition to being expensive, it tarnishes like nobody’s business, and once tarnished, loses its antimicrobial properties.)

    But curing an actual case of swine flu? I’ll believe that when I see some data. Everything I know about it tells me that’s highly implausible, so I’ll need some real evidence to change my mind.

    and recently merck was fined in autralian courts for pushing doctors to use their vaccines.

    So the big pharmaceutical companies are short-sighted, profit-hungry, crooks. What else is new? That’s why they need to be regulated. (Unlike the alternative medicine companies, who pushed through legislation to ensure they wouldn’t be regulated like that and could do whatever they pleased. Sadly, you appear to be a victim of their greed.)

    there are only 2 vaccines that are necessary, (if that) but with a combination or real herbs, that are known for over 200 years and a good md with homeopathy background, that is safer, that a schedule of over 78 vaccines in the course of a child’s 1st 12 years.

    Oh, now it’s 78 vaccines? You were claiming it was 128 before. When I showed you it was 49 at the absolute worst case, and gave my source, you just handwaved it away by saying that was the “old” schedule. (You never responded to my pointing out that it’s current and includes Gardasil, which is pretty damned new.)

    I said some nice things about you, and about how I was glad that you’re advocating for learning disabled children.

    I’m not sure I’m so glad anymore, because not only have you been victimized by quacks, but you are not aware of the fact and are recommending that other children be victimized in the same way. I can’t endorse that.

    Swine flu is probably coming; there is no vaccine that can protect us. Colloidal silver won’t protect us either. Fortunately, there are two antivirals which work, but there’s a terrible irony in influenza — by the time you’re sick enough to go to a doctor, it’s usually too late for the antivirals to be very helpful. In the case of a pandemic, they can be used to help stop the spread, by prophylactic treatment of the victim’s close associates, but there’s no guarantee of getting everybody, and it may continue to spread. Hopefully, this epidemic doesn’t prove to be as bad as they’re fearing, but please don’t bank on colloidal silver to save you. It won’t, and it won’t reduce your contagiousness either. For the sake of the children you care so much about, if you get influenza symptoms, I hope you won’t just take some colloidal silver and go to work anyway.

  329. todd by the way
    the dentists explained, the conversion from ethyl to methyl mercury
    when my fillings kept breaking apart, allowed mercury to convert due to natural bacteria in mouth.
    but the simple act of chewing food , or grinding teeth will also break down the mercury to mercury vapors. (the natural bacteria in the mouth helps)
    and no mercury is not a good antiseptic or anti microbe reagent.
    also mercury is in makeup, household cleaners , contac lens soutions, nose sprays, ear washes etc. and the the regular pollution from coal burning plants is really polluting this country overall.

    and why do you think all hospitals , they removed a regular antiseptic merthiolate and mercurechrome off all hospital shelves?

    hope this helps

  330. @debora

    the arguement on ethyl mercury conversion to methyl mercury is being petty.

    How is it being petty? You made the claim. You referred me to the CDC document, implying that that document stated that ethylmercury converts into methylmercury, but it wasn’t there. My guess is that what your doctor and dentist told you about methylmercury conversion was the methylmercury converting to inorganic mercury, not ethylmercury converting to methylmercury.

    I realize that this is something in which you strongly believe, so I expect some measure of rationalizing, rather than any admission that you might be wrong. However, unless you can produce some evidence that ethylmercury does convert into methylmercury, that argument remains in the realm of anecdote, rather than science.

    Also, I will believe you that you suffered from mercury poisoning due to a variety of environmental exposures. However, that is very different from the vaccines. Vaccines, while they contain trace amounts of thimerosal, which metabolizes down into ethylmercury, the total mercury exposure from vaccines is far below the toxic threshold.

    a clinic nurse next door , said that the only vaccines that are thimerosol free, are the new vaccines for babies up to 6 months of age. hse had to vaccinate thousands this winter.
    she said the rest have the offending ingredients that i have mentioned many times.

    Any vaccine that had the full amount of thimerosal (i.e., the pre-2001 levels) should have expired and been disposed of by now. In fact, those vaccines that had thimerosal expired around 2002. If any doctor did not dispose of them after they expired, then they are not properly using or controlling their vaccine stocks. But, again, can you provide some kind of evidence, other than a story, to support this? Can you show that vaccines administered to kids older than 6 months have levels of thimerosal beyond trace amounts? Furthermore, can you show that, if such amounts exist, they exceed toxic levels?

    what elaine said is true, a perfectly healthy baby , tha tsuddenly shows asd, more than likely the mmr.

    Not really. Correlation does not equal causation. Keep in mind that autism can be diagnosed anywhere from 6 months of age to 2-3 years old. Because symptoms start to show during this period, it is easy to say that they are due to vaccines, which are also given during this period. However, if you look at studies comparing autism rates among those receiving MMR vs. those who do not receive it, you will find that there is no significant difference.

    if you think that not true, why does the government want to do single doses now?

    First off, do you have a link? Second, it is probably due to public pressure, rather than science, much like when they suggested thimerosal be removed. But, until I take a look at what they are saying, I can only speculate as to any reason.

  331. Funny you should mention mercurochrome. It was removed because of fears of potential mercury poisoning. Do you know what one of the products that replaced it was? THIMEROSAL.

  332. @debora

    and why do you think all hospitals , they removed a regular antiseptic merthiolate and mercurechrome off all hospital shelves?

    Not sure. I haven’t asked them. Can you provide some official document from every hospital calling for their removal?

    I did a quick search on the FDA’s web site, and it looks like methiolate is not approved in the U.S. I found some entries on mercurochrome, but haven’t read about them in depth yet, other than that it uses a mercury chloride. Which, again, is not ethylmercury.

  333. Do you know what is actually the most common form of exposure to mercury is? Fish. How much tuna do you eat?

  334. Todd,

    There’s not much to go on but here is the link to the wiki on mercurochrome…
    http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merbromin

  335. calli in response

    Oh God . . . you’ve very likely been victimized. Every now and again, I read about a dentist getting his license revoked for that kind of stuff. It brings in money to do that kind of unnecessary oral surgery, but it exposes the patients to a fair bit of a risk. Ironically, one of the risks is mercury poisoning — drilling out an amalgam filling releases more vapor than would’ve been released over the entire lifetime of the filling.

    answer: and yes !it was when the dentist drilled all my white fillings out i got sick. but many dentists in 1989 did that practice , not just him.

    i did not report him , he lost his license later. here are other reasons for toxicity:
    but also annual *gamma globulin shots* as hospital worker if work with dialysis patients.
    and *contac lens solution* i used
    and laboratory reagents from owrking in the lab

    all fillings with 50% mercury are bad

    This is just conspiracy-theory stuff. You’re claiming the government is intentionally hurting people. Why? How would they possibly profit

    see governor arnold schwarzenneger on dentisty in california
    he endorses only white composites as of 6 yrs ago

    and yes the bilderbergs !do exist go to north carolina and see that big monument with the words 500,000,000 and other innuendos.
    only a handful of people control what goes on finacially, medically , food control thru gmos, and trade to name a few. am sure if you look that up you may get past conspiracy theory. the usa is controlled by multi national companies.
    and we lost our constitution and our rights with patriot act 2.

    Sure, lots of natural herbs work. What does that have to do with vaccines?

    plenty, natural immunity can be done with herbs na dhomeopathy

    i did not say just colloidal silver, i said other herbs and cam /complementary /alternative medicine.
    but in regards to swine flu , everyone is ordering colloidal silver
    colloidal silver is only know reagent to kill bacteria thorougly
    but can also achieve results with several herbs

    i also recommended : young living herbs, they have outstanding results, used them on a dog with lyme, which is bacteral, and viral later.

    you missed that one calli.
    and calli do not wish me harm if i were to get swine flu, that is so disparaging:

    i am very good at what i do
    and have a 98 % success rate.
    and yes i haved helped parents with their kids , with learning dissabilities, ie: chelation or diet changes or herbs,
    so far the scuccesses are over 125 children. all dr referrals.

    and btw calli i was using your number 78, but it is not 49!
    dotn forget all the flu shots , these kids get, and boosters

    all my kids in special ed now are mainstreammed
    i dont do treatments , the doctor referral network does
    so in answer to your not liking me or saying ill of me it’s on you hon.
    i can go to bed and sleep well , knowing that i have not harmed a child with vaccines , drugs nay or physical harm. for that matter anyone.

    my new success story is one student now , used to have multiple seisures
    and possible adhd dx, since my referral , no seizures in 20 months, she is moving to a regular mainstream classroom , no more special ed, and the parents are firing the ass of a neurologist, that had thes girl as a patient for 8 yrs.

    so go spew the government reports , ignore vaers, those deaths are real
    dead is dead

    and see above what i said of the clinic nurse next door,
    she felt bad that the only vacciens without thimerosol/mercury were for up to 6 months

    thank you

  336. todd
    they removed it because it was smercury

    i got hte notice whne i worked at the hospital

  337. shane
    thank you

    lol call it mercurochome, merthiolite, betadine (to some degree)
    wha laaaaaaaaaaa now thnimerosol.
    so went from topical to vaccines.
    just remember everyone the united states / made in america all thats left
    are chemicals
    and the us is the biggest at selling mercury worlwide for gold mining, labs and vaccines

  338. Herbs work best as flavour enhancer with food.
    Believing in homeopathy is just plain delusional. It is water (or sugar pills). It can’t work and it does not work. Recommending homeopathic vaccinations, as I’ve heard suggested, is obscene and should be criminalised.

  339. shane
    read further on what you said on merthiolate

    and herbs are not sugar pills lol

    here is what they aid on it in wiki
    wiki wont bad mouth vaccines , they did in the past tho

    here is part on merthiolate and mercurochrome

    Toxicology
    Thiomersal is very toxic by inhalation, ingestion, and in contact with skin (EC hazard symbol T+), with a danger of cumulative effects. It is also very toxic to aquatic organisms and may cause long-term adverse effects in aquatic environments (EC hazard symbol N).[8] In the body, it is metabolized or degraded to ethylmercury (C2H5Hg+) and thiosalicylate.[3]

    Few studies of the toxicity of thiomersal in humans have been performed. Animal experiments suggest that thiomersal rapidly dissociates to release ethylmercury after injection; that the disposition patterns of mercury are similar to those after exposure to equivalent doses of ethylmercury chloride; and that the central nervous system and the kidneys are targets, with lack of motor coordination being a common sign. Similar signs and symptoms have been observed in accidental human poisonings. The mechanisms of toxic action are unknown. Fecal excretion accounts for most of the elimination from the body. Ethylmercury clears from blood with a half-time of about 18 days, and from the brain in about 14 days. Inorganic mercury metabolized from ethylmercury has a much longer clearance, at least 120 days; it appears to be much less toxic than the inorganic mercury produced from mercury vapor, for reasons not yet understood.[9]

    Risk assessment for effects on the nervous system have been made by extrapolating from dose-response relationships for methylmercury.[9] Methylmercury and ethylmercury distributes to all body tissues, crossing the blood-brain barrier and the placental barrier, and ethylmercury also moves freely throughout the body.[10] Concerns based on extrapolations from methylmercury caused thiomersal to be removed from U.S. childhood vaccines, starting in 1999. Since then, it has been found that ethylmercury is cleared from the body and the brain significantly faster than methylmercury, so the late-1990s risk assessments turned out to be overly conservative.[9] A 2008 study found that the half-life of blood mercury after vaccination averages 3.7 days for newborns and infants, much shorter than the 44 days for methylmercury.

    that is a skewed scientific study, note they said in the blood , not mentioning in the central nervous system or in fat tissues, where mercury stores longer , and the half life becomes invalid

  340. @debora

    plenty, natural immunity can be done with herbs na dhomeopathy

    Please provide links to the clinical trials showing the safety and efficacy of herbs and homeopathy in the prevention of communicable diseases.

  341. @debora
    Why is it a skewed scientific study?

  342. shane also
    i mentioned when i was chelating for mercury toxicity, herbs were used
    because of the herbs , my healing was significantly faster
    most people with mercury toxicity take up to 6 years to recover.

    and i use herbs for my hypothyroidism with success
    i went back to a size 6/8 instead of size 12/14
    if not familiar with woman’s sizes
    that is significant
    from medium large size to small

    btw mercury affects testosterone, why do you think there is so much obesity in men and women, over 13 million new thyroid disease and diabettes cases reported in the us every year
    and woman with lots of hair on their face, and infertility.

    only residual problem, which is what im working on now , is nerve damage to neck, from poisoning , so on rainy days , im still a human barometer and experience pain in my neck and shoulders

    sugar pills are placebos, look that up

  343. @debora

    Regarding the study, you should note that they said (emphasis mine):

    Ethylmercury clears from blood with a half-time of about 18 days, and from the brain in about 14 days. Inorganic mercury metabolized from ethylmercury has a much longer clearance, at least 120 days; it appears to be much less toxic than the inorganic mercury produced from mercury vapor, for reasons not yet understood.

    Last I checked, the brain is part of the central nervous system. It is eliminated from the body much fast than methylmercury, and it is less toxic.

  344. skewed scientic study?
    they use that for the cdc , nih nad lal efficacy study on mercury /thimerosol

    even at the cdc and fda, their own scientists were outraged by the miniscule numbers on half lifes , and the efficacy of vaccines.
    the us government ordered another vaccine study after 1999, because the scientist that exited the us government, and their complaints on obsolete , what i call skewed studies.

  345. todd
    no mercury is safe

  346. @debora

    Citations, please.

  347. I see. If you disagree with a study it is skewed.

  348. @debora

    no mercury is safe

    You have yet to show us any scientific data that shows the levels of mercury from thimerosal are toxic. I would also point out that thimerosal is an effective means of preventing bacteria, fungi and other microbes from growing in vaccines, thereby extending their usable life. But, that is not particularly relevant, as thimerosal has been removed from nearly every childhood vaccine that had it.

    Also, bear in mind the saying “The dose makes the poison.”

  349. Sodium isn’t safe either. But I consume some every day.

  350. @debora

    In this entire thread, you have thus far not provided any scientific evidence to support either of the following arguments:

    * Thimerosal in vaccines causes autism (or any other injury).
    * Vaccines in general cause autism.

    Regarding mercury poisoning, the only scientific examples you have given have been regarding methylmercury, mercury chlorides and other mercury compounds other than ethylmercury.

    You have promoted herbs, chelation and homeopathy as ways to effectively treat and/or cure autism or prevent these diseases, yet you have provided zero scientific evidence to back up those claims.

    Before posting any further comments, please back up your claims with science. Otherwise, this conversation is going nowhere.

  351. todd ill look up the cases on herbs for disease and send tomorrow

    but i can do you one better

    i not only teach, but do rescue for stray cats and kittens ( and some people dump puppies now)
    the agency that drops off kittens and cats, are mostly , sick ,injured or newborn to my home.
    well they did question my words and on herbs, not any longer, some of the 15 volunteers use herbs now;

    so far i have mended a cat that was thrown into the highway, (she was all cut up and with mange) a cat with a broken jaw and over 35 newborn or young kittens.

    mostly all were sick or near dying, what i immediately did was assess them, give appropriate herbs, or homeopathic remedies. (vets for broken bones only0
    the owner of the shelter one of the largest in texas, was skecptical about the cat with mange and was all cut up, one week later i brought the cat to the vet’s for check up, and the cat was toatally healed.
    i used neem oil for the mange, all cleared in 2 weeks.
    the cat with the broken jaw i used herbs for healing , plus a solution that in of natural medicine for tartar in the cat’s jaw, total recovery in 6 weeks. did use vet to set the jaw tho,

    the kittens for prevention of feline leukemia, feline aids or fip, i use
    golden seal, una d’ gato, and grapefruit seed extract.
    and in france goldenseal is endorsed to prevent those diseases.
    . and proven cats with feline aids live full lives with those herbs.
    i now have 9 kittens.
    4 are leaving to be adopted in 2 weeks.
    5 newborns last week, were found in a trailer park, were so weak, after one day are eating from the bottle , flea free, and i will allow them to be adopted in 9 weeks. the woman from the shelter was terrified , she did not think these newborns would make it.

    as i said it was herbs that stopped a student from seisures.

  352. @debora

    Lots of anecdotes. No actual controlled studies. Please, don’t bother posting any of that. Your stories are not able to be critically examined, because people reading here do not know all of the details. There are no controls to account for other variables or prevent bias from creeping into the results. The sample sizes presented are small, falling below levels needed to establish significance.

    I don’t mean to sound cruel or dismissive, but stories don’t matter in discussing issues of science. What matters is the data and the methodology.

  353. todd ,
    the only thing i could do is have testimonies of the autism cures, or removal of almost all symptomology, ill ask the parents.
    but i would suggest you read jenny mccarthys book

    and there are tons of books on how chealtion, herbs diets work
    i am living proof of mercury reading of 14 to 1.5
    if you want my medical records, im me on my messenger and ill fax them to you
    everything that i experienced when i was sick , was like asd according to 3 doctors, including leaky gut, memory loss, migraines,allergies, asthma, insomnia, and tumors (not associated with autism)
    all of it is gone.
    try going to yahoo chat on autism or no vaccines , they have lots of testimony

  354. I heard Munchausen’s can be debilitating.

  355. @debora

    the only thing i could do is have testimonies of the autism cures, or removal of almost all symptomology, ill ask the parents.

    No, you could conduct a clinical trial. Or, if you can’t (and it seems your grasp of methodology is not up to the task), find someone to conduct such a clinical trial. Or you could search the medical literature for such a study.

    and there are tons of books on how chealtion, herbs diets work

    How many of those are actually based on properly controlled studies, and not just quacks looking to fleece people of their money?

    i am living proof of mercury reading of 14 to 1.5

    I do not dispute that. Nor do I dispute that in your case chelation was called for. However, chelation is not approved for use in the treatment of autism, and there is a real chance of significant harm from chelation. (see whatstheharm.net/chelationtherapy.html)

    everything that i experienced when i was sick , was like asd according to 3 doctors, including leaky gut, memory loss, migraines,allergies, asthma, insomnia, and tumors (not associated with autism)
    all of it is gone.

    Last I checked, those are not symptoms of autism spectrum disorders. The doctors claiming that it was “like asd” were either ill-informed or quacks. You were misinformed.

    try going to yahoo chat on autism or no vaccines , they have lots of testimony

    How many times do I need to say this: testimony (anecdotes, stories) do not matter when it comes to science issues. People’s stories are not reliable for making scientific conclusions.

  356. munchausens by proxy is to get attention from the parent or caregiver, they do nothing ,for the person that is ill, except exacerbate it, and it is all about attention, not cures or medical care , period
    look it up
    does that mean vaccines are an answer for munchausen’s by proxy?

  357. Greg in Austin

    @debora,

    I think its great that you rescue animals. If more people would spay and neuter their pets, and take some actual responsibility in owning a pet, there would be fewer animals in need of rescuing.

    What Todd has been repeating, but you are ignoring, is the fact that all of your stories and anecdotes do not mean diddly squat in proving that your treatments really work.

    Jenny McCarthy is not a doctor, and she’s not trying to save lives. Her interests are to sell her book and make money. You have been fooled, and look foolish for promoting her.

    Educate yourself a little more into the actual scientific methods that were used to discover vaccines in the first place. Educate yourself in the real science of medications, and ask yourself how homeopathy can really work. Read a Biology textbook instead of listening to Oprah, and maybe you will really learn something.

    8)

  358. todd

    i just told you they did NOT remove the mercury /thimerosol in vaccines
    the nurse next door said they did not as well. nad i sent you the vaccine contents list several times.

    all my doctors said they did not

    when i called the cdc and nih , they said there is a little left , but not enough to cause harm, and explained 2 types of vacciens in use batch vs. single dose units.

    so apparently dependent on the vaccine studies you are claiming are safe, which are they batch or single dose units?

    if mercurochrome and merthilolate were removed from use in hospitals for topicla use?
    why inject it into one’s bloodsteam?

    and furthermore thimerosol does not kill bacteria or fungi
    as i offered my medical records as proof . have the pictures of all teh damaged teeth as well.
    my bacteria count in my mouth before the fillings were removed was extremely high.
    could you produce some studies , that are easy to read in layman’s terms? since all of your pro vax people here are not in the medical preofession.
    but i will tell you the actual amounts that look so small are greater tha having 15 teeth with amalgams with 50% mercuty that were drilled, and equals out to after the 1st year on the vaccine schedule

  359. Todd,

    Head. Desk. Repeat.

  360. greg,
    i was a microbiologist, 8 years and biology major on my 1st degree
    and telling this from fact. so i am not imaginging things.
    when in medical school or biology or medical laboratory , the first thing, they say in a and p~~ is any mercury in the human body or any living organism is dangerous and can be fatal.
    i do not watch oprah, yuck
    i ‘m stating what i have seen , of those that revcoverd from asd with the modality jenny mccarthy used with success, i have seen 3 other success stories like that.
    facts dont lie , right now the us government , states 1/110 have asd or autism.
    the military news says 1/60
    those statistics did not exist until mercury ,aluminum , antifreeze components, formaldehyde ,live green monkey cells and viruses, and aborted fetal cells were ingredients in vaccines

    todd give that list of vacciens ingredients i gave to you for greg’s attention
    that vaccines ingredients lsit is real and scientific
    so let us do the math is was 1/150
    the govt says now 1/110 and the real one more like 1/60
    multiply that in the us population of 300 million

  361. greg
    i do know how vaccines were created

    jenner for smallpox ~~off cows cells

    now the rockefeeler foundation since 1919

    polio vaccines sabine and salk

    what do you want to know?

  362. @debora

    i just told you they did NOT remove the mercury /thimerosol in vaccines

    Here is the content of thimerosal in vaccines: fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm#t1 (add www to the beginning)

    The majority are thimerosal-free. Those that have thimerosal have only minute amounts. So, again, if the vaccines that were used had more than what is listed in the linked table, they were old batches that should have been discarded long ago.

    and furthermore thimerosol does not kill bacteria or fungi

    Here is a list of studies examining the ability of thimerosal to prevent the growth of bacteria and fungi (from fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm#bib). You can probably find the abstracts or full study texts on PubMed:

    Studies on Safety and Effectiveness of Thimerosal:

    1. Batts AH, Narriott C, Martin GP, et al. The effect of some preservatives used in nasal preparations on mucociliary clearance. Journal of Pharmacy and Pharmacology 1989; 41:156-159.
    2. Batty I, Harris E, Gasson A. Preservatives and biological reagents. Developments in Biological Standardization 1974;24:131-142.
    3. Beyer-Boon ME, Arntz PW, Kirk RS. A comparison of thimerosal and 50% alcohol as preservatives in urinary cytology. Journal of Clinical Pathology 1979;32:168-170.
    4. Gasset AR, Itoi M, Ishii Y, Ramer RM. Teratogenicities of ophthalmic drugs. II. Teratogenicites and tissue accumulation of thimerosal. Archives of Ophthalmology 1975;93:52-55.
    5. Goldman KN, Centifanta Y, Kaufman HF, et al. Prevention of surface bacterial contamination of donor corneas. Archives of Ophthalmology 1978;96:2277-2280.
    6. Keeven J, Wrobel S, Portoles M, et al. Evaluating the preservative effectiveness of RGP lens care solutions. Contact Lens Association of Ophthalmologists Journal 1995;21:238-241.
    7. Naito R, Itoh T, Hasegawa E, et al. Bronopol as a substitute for thimerosal. Developments in Biological Standardization 1974;24:39-48.
    8. Wozniak-Parnowska W, Krowczynski L. New approach to preserving eye drops. Pharmacy International 1981;2(4):91-94.

    as i offered my medical records as proof . have the pictures of all teh damaged teeth as well.
    my bacteria count in my mouth before the fillings were removed was extremely high.

    You did not have thimerosal in your mouth, so why do you bring this up again? What you were exposed to was not thimerosal or ethylmercury! When we’re talking about thimerosal, why do you keep bringing up other very different compounds?

  363. @debora

    those statistics did not exist until mercury ,aluminum , antifreeze components, formaldehyde ,live green monkey cells and viruses, and aborted fetal cells were ingredients in vaccines

    Didn’t we already discuss these ingredients? First off, there are no antifreeze components in vaccines. Second, the formaldehyde in vaccines is the same as that produced by the body, and is only a tiny fraction of what the body naturally produces. It is not the same as the formaldehyde used in, say, the manufacture of pressed wood products. Aluminum I addressed in my initial post, showing that the amounts in vaccines are below the toxic threshold. On the issue of monkey cells and fetal cells, those are remnants of the growth medium and are diluted out of the final product. Should an individual be allergic to any of the ingredients or show an allergic reaction to the vaccine, they should not receive further shots of that vaccine. However, those allergies can be handled with proper, prompt medical attention, with no lasting injury.

    Second, autism most certainly existed before any of that. It was most likely lumped in with “mental retardation” as the diagnosis.

    todd give that list of vacciens ingredients i gave to you for greg’s attention

    I just noticed your post with that link way up. Just FYI, I do not control moderation. I’m just an ordinary poster like you.

    And a quick note on your statistics. In the mid-90s, the diagnostic criteria for autism was expanded into a spectrum disorder, meaning a lot of stuff that was diagnosed as something else, or wouldn’t have been diagnosed at all, was now included under ASD. Also since then, awareness of the disorder has increased, meaning that more people that may have been missed are now getting diagnosed. There have also been improvements in the diagnostic tools (e.g., questionnaires) since then. Add onto all of that misdiagnosis (downfall of generalized diagnostic criteria and tools), as well as people seeking a diagnosis in order to get money from the state for their kid. So, take those statistics with a grain of salt.

  364. todd,

    wahtever, you have said on this
    that article is old 1989
    bacteria still reproduce, my doctor and dentist that ran my test plus ddi can not be lying. those were done in 2001.

    and i know for a fact , that so claled diagnostic tool psychiatrists use , looks like a little cookbbok rollodex, and many of the disorders have many of the same same symptoms, which is why many of my kids keep getting different diagnoses.

    and no its not parents getting the money , its the schools, some $1000 per kid in special ed, but also big endowments for gifted and talented.
    that i know from when i was in the maine school depts.

  365. who is the moderator?
    i just sent the vaccine ingredients
    and proven sites for cures for autism and asd

  366. been fun , until my reports go on line , ill check in
    lunch time
    must feed the kittens
    then off to work

  367. i sent up factual sites for cure
    and factual sites on autism mercury link
    bye

  368. @debora

    and no its not parents getting the money , its the schools, some $1000 per kid in special ed, but also big endowments for gifted and talented.

    True about the schools getting the money. My misstatement. At any rate, it allows families to get specialized, more individualized attention for their kids at no extra cost to themselves.

    wahtever, you have said on this that article is old 1989

    Which article? The one from FDA on thimerosal? If it is from 1989, why do they provide a citation for a study from 1995?

    bacteria still reproduce, my doctor and dentist that ran my test plus ddi can not be lying. those were done in 2001.

    What do you mean by this? And what does this have to do with thimerosal?

    and i know for a fact , that so claled diagnostic tool psychiatrists use , looks like a little cookbbok rollodex, and many of the disorders have many of the same same symptoms, which is why many of my kids keep getting different diagnoses.

    Like I said (or tried to), a lot more kids get a diagnosis of autism than would have before. The result is that more kids that actually do have autism are diagnosed. But it’s a bit of a double-edged sword, since kids that don’t have autism are also diagnosed with the disorder. I suspect that those cases where kids were “cured” were not actual cases of autism. However, that is just my conjecture, since I don’t have the details of those cases.

  369. @debora

    who is the moderator?

    Phil Plait. He has an autofilter on that automatically sends any post with a hyperlink into moderation. When he has time (he’s a busy guy), he reviews them to make sure the link doesn’t go to some inappropriate site (correct me if I’m wrong, Dr. Plait), since this is intended to be an educational site and open to school kids.

    Like I said before, if you don’t want your posts ending up in moderation, remove the http and www from the address, as I have in my post above regarding thimerosal content.

  370. Greg in Austin

    debora said,

    “any mercury in the human body or any living organism is dangerous and can be fatal.”

    ANY amount of mercury? Which compound of mercury? Sodium reacts violently to hydrogen (in the air and in water), and Chlorine gas is fatal if inhaled, and yet when the two are mixed together, we get ordinary salt. So please don’t use that fear tactic here.

    I didn’t ask for your educational background, but since you brought it up, what controlled clinical studies have you performed and/or published that shows a causal link between mercury and autism? You seem better qualified than most people posting here to do your own study. At the least, you should be able to present someone else’s controlled scientific study that conclusively shows there is a link. With your background and education, certainly you can tell the difference between a scientific study and an old wives’ tale?

    8)

  371. Greg in Austin

    debora said,

    “i do know how vaccines were created”

    You may know WHO came up with them, but do you know HOW they did it? Your comments do not show you really do. If they followed a specific scientific method for creating those vaccines, then we should be able to repeat those methods and come up with a vaccines for a new disease, right? Do you think someone used a similar method to develop a vaccine for HPV?

    Now, can we do the same thing with the homeopathic cures you have presented? Can we not show, in a controlled scientific study, that herbs and water can cure or prevent a communicable disease? Has anyone ever tried this? Have you? What were the results?

    8)

  372. Mike C

    @ Todd

    Lots of anecdotes. No actual controlled studies.

    My point exactly so the entire argument is moot, since there is no proof vaccines work. Quit all the bickering. No controlled studies on vaccines, therefore who knows. Todd you want citations that vaccines are harmful, I want ones showing that they work, using the same standard.

  373. Is there anyone who finds the visual make-up of the Huffington Post highly distracting, especially the home page? It should carry a warning ‘if you can read this, you’re beyond help’.

  374. Todd, I’m about to have an empathetic stroke for you…

  375. Elaine McKillop

    I am totally bewildered by how boring and redundant you people can be. Vaccines cause Autism. All of your studies aren’t as useful a toilet paper, they are produced by corrupted science. Statistically, if you take all of the children that died in the first 24 hours after a vaccination and then compare that to the other children that die, the math with tell you that statistically it is impossible to rule out the vaccination as not being the factor. Math does not lie, but many of you are not only liars, but damn boring ones. Until next time EM

  376. Mark Hansen

    Elaine, you are a liar, a fool, and a heartless troll. Enjoy your embittered life.

  377. Kerry Kolsch

    Mark, I read these post and Elaine is one of the few that is not a big pharma lover. Why did you call names rather then explaining why Jim Carrey is being attacked exactly how Merck say they attack people who have a negative opinion of drugs? How many on this page are real people and not drug company shills? You know that China fills the internet with propagandist. Is that what you are? You are the one that needs to get a life.

  378. How many on this page are real people and not drug company shills?

    How many posting here against vaccines are not shills for “big homeopathy” or “big herba”?

    See? Conspiracy theories work both ways.

    If you thing CAM is better than scientific-based medicine because the purveyors aren’t out to make a profit, you’re pretty darned naive. The biggest difference is that the science-based medicine works.

  379. Davidlpf

    The real question is who wants to be shills for big pharma, I do I could really use the money.

  380. Little C

    Elaine said:

    “I am totally bewildered by how boring and redundant you people can be. ”

    I’ve been reading this whole thread off and on for a couple of days. Finally made it to the bottom and what you said above, Elaine, is exactly how I feel about the anti-vax crowd. Boring and redundant. It’s beyond ridiculous, especially since no one can provide scientific evidence for vaccines causing autism.

    I’m an Aspie, however I didn’t know until well into adulthood. When I read comments from anti-vax folks, especially those who are parents to an autistic child, my heart goes out to these children. Why? Not because they have autism, but because their real needs can’t possibly be met while all this is going on. If the child is truly autistic, one big message they get is that mom and/or dad can’t accept them for who they really are, and can’t get over having a “different” or an allegedly “flawed” child who presents their parents with challenges they refuse to accept in a graceful and dignified manner. What they see is the outrage and fervor to “get to the bottom of this!” and the desperation that comes with latching onto something that doesn’t have enough evidence and proof to hold up in court, and then to continue on beating a dead horse which doesn’t help anyone, let alone their child. Instead of the child learning to deal with their differences, and to be accepting of themselves, they end up with psychological hang-ups on top of the autism that comes with being raised by neurotic parents (and possibly undiagnosed and/or brainwashed AS themselves) who are in so much denial that they can’t see the forest for the trees. Autism by itself often isn’t nearly as bad as the psychological trauma that comes with it. Stop being so darn insensitive. Where’s the empathy? Oh that’s right, only autistic folk don’t have empathy. You can’t understand where they are coming from either, but that’s never attributed to a lack of empathy on your part. I call it self-righteousness myself, but hey…

    If your child is autistic, your best bet is to help them cope in an NT world, and not dragging them off to some quack who’s going to do more harm than good. If that were me as a child, I’d be traumatized for life if I went through some of the stuff I’ve read (or rather, it’d just be one more major trauma) from the anti-vax world. I grew up in the 70’s, before the diagnostic critieria improved, but I know my mom knew, she would still have dealt with it without having a permanent “meltdown” (or an extended void of reason) herself, nor blaming everyone but our own family’s genetics, which the bulk of the evidence points to when it comes to autism. We’re born with it, and no two autistics are alike in the symptoms they display. Anyone “cured” of autism is either going to have major meltdowns later in life due to “playing the game” and denying their autism, or they were never autistic in the first place. There is no cure, and to say otherwise in light of no substantiated proof is irresponsible.

    Oh! If this doesn’t make it past moderation, I’ll understand. Just to know that I tried is enough. The out-of-control tyranical obsessiveness here has reached that overwhelming point for me and it’s mentally suffocating (normally I fume silently offline!). I should know, I know all about obsessions, it’s just that mine aren’t harming anyone, or at the very least and not reaching out to negatively affect a whole community, a community that happens to have it’s good points, and we wish for society to allow us to grow and nurture them.

    Low or high functioning, concentrating on vaccines as a cause of autism are not doing anyone on the spectrum any favors. You’re just ignoring what needs to be worked on.

    For the record, the whooping cough nearly killed me as an infant. I actually remember the gasping, and being unable to breathe. It scarred my lungs, and left me with a seal-like bronchial cough until my mid-teens, but it was that “dying moment” that forever imprinted upon me.

  381. At Switched.com (click on my name for the link), I stumbled upon an article, “Discovery [Channel] Throws a Boatload of Tech at JFK Conspiracies”, which was a review of a programme on the Discovery Channel that debunked the JFK assassination conspiracy theory.

    Guess who made a comment (#11) there lambasting the mentioned article? Yeah, you guessed it, Elaine (bloody) McKillop!

    Elaine’s comment, which I’ve re-posted here, speaks volumes of her mind-set:

    I have stood in the spot where Oswald was suppose to have made the shots and I question why Oswald would not shoot when Kennedy was coming down the street straight at him and wait till he turned the corner and had to shoot at an angle making the shot more difficult. How do you explain Oswald and Barry Seal (spelling ?) attending the same CIA run flight school as teenagers? Propagandized reality can not be spoon fed to all of us. The highest levels of our government were involved and from that day we no longer had a free press or a free country. The same despots are in control. The shot that rang out all over the World was the signal to the end of our liberty. Read the Constitution. The only man in Washington that is guided by it is Ron Paul. Your version of history only appeals to brain dead zombies.

    Make of that what you will.

    :cool:

  382. Mark Hansen

    Kerry, my Big Pharma™ shill money™ must keep getting lost in the mail. Also my screen name is my real name, I’m not located in an evil Chinese government agency™ (although even if I was, I would still say I wasn’t; just can’t win sometimes) and I stand by my statements about Elaine; A liar (Vaccines cause Autism), a fool (All of your studies aren’t as useful as toilet paper), and a heartless troll (For all of you who want to wine{sic} about getting sick or someone they know getting sick because they were not vaccinated, to{sic} damn bad, it has nothing to do with my choice.).

    All italicised quotes are from Elaine’s posts. All can be found on this page.

  383. Mark Hansen

    Incidentally, Kerry, while checking those posts of Saint Elaine’s, please note that her hands are less than lily-white clean when it comes to name calling. At least mine have the benefit of being accurate.

  384. Todd W.

    @Mike C

    I asked you what you would accept as a proper study design, since you feel that antibody titers are not an appropriate measure of efficacy. Tell me what you feel is an appropriate way to test for efficacy, keeping study ethics in mind, and I will see what I can find.

  385. Todd W.

    @drksky

    Thanks for the empathy. Though, please, you don’t need to actually have a stroke. :)

  386. Todd W.

    @Elaine McKillop

    I am totally bewildered by how boring and redundant you people can be.

    Well, it’s hard not to be redundant when we need to keep arguing against the same, tired claims over, and over, and over. Perhaps if the antivaxers were less redundant, we would be too.

    Vaccines cause Autism.

    Not to be redundant or boring, but, citation please. This kind of claim requires some science to back it up.

    All of your studies aren’t as useful a toilet paper, they are produced by corrupted science.

    Even the ones done by researchers with no ties to Big PharmaTM? There are people doing research on these issues outside of the U.S., you know.

    Statistically, if you take all of the children that died in the first 24 hours after a vaccination and then compare that to the other children that die, the math with tell you that statistically it is impossible to rule out the vaccination as not being the factor.

    Again, can you please provide us with the statistics of which you speak and the source of that information? This is a very simple concept that is common to all academic pursuits: support your arguments with sources!

    Math does not lie, but many of you are not only liars, but damn boring ones.

    Math may not lie, but people like you certainly twist the numbers to fit their own ideology. And apologies for being boring. I’ll try a song and dance number next time.

  387. Todd W,
    Please explain why the vaccine makers bought protection from Congress with the Homeland Security Act.

    Bribing Congress to piss on the Constitution by allowing kids to be poisoned is much better evidence than any studies.

    And Todd, did you forget to get back to me about that Harvard study on Alzheimer’s that lied about the APO proteins?

  388. Todd W.

    @John Best

    Against my better judgment, I’ll respond to you, since your last post was at least nominally more adult.

    Please explain why the vaccine makers bought protection from Congress with the Homeland Security Act.

    Bribing Congress to piss on the Constitution by allowing kids to be poisoned is much better evidence than any studies.

    Can you point me to the source of your info? I hadn’t heard about it, so I don’t know what you’re talking about. Provide me with a source, and I’ll take a look at it.

    And Todd, did you forget to get back to me about that Harvard study on Alzheimer’s that lied about the APO proteins?</blockquote

    Nope. If you go back and read, I said I wouldn't respond to you until you grew up and could egage in respectful conversation like an adult.

    A quick note about the page you linked to from your blog, I notice that they have a bit of misinformation there, stating that kids receive 33 shots before the age of two. This is not true. If you take a look at one of my previous posts about the number of vaccines received, you'l see that they receive 28 by the age of six. They also cite a study claiming a link between thimerosal and autism, yet that study compared exposure against the guidelines for methylmercury, which is known to be more toxic and remain in the body longer than ethylmercury. That study also makes the mistake of assuming that all cases reported to VAERS are, in fact, causally related to the vaccine. I've already addressed the unreliability of VAERS for such a use. Furthermore, the web site you link to equates formation of an initial definition of a disease as representative of the first instance of said disease in all of history. Dr. Miller also makes several claims without providing citations, like this one:

    Dental amalgams are the main source of mercury in an adult’s brain.

    No source is listed for that claim. Studies mentioned regarding the APO-E4 protein were not clearly referenced. One link to a statement from Dr. Hugh Fudenberg mentioned some studies that I was unable to find online for evaluation. A study that examined mercury exposure in rats did not use ethylmercury, using instead a variety of other mercury compunds. It does, however, find a connection between APO-E4 and Alzheimer’s Disease.

    All of that is irrelevant, really, since the study done by Harvard and MGH acknowledged that APO-E4 is linked to AD. What they found was that a section of DNA on chromosome 14 is linked. You fixate instead on their comment about APO-E4. Nothing in the site you linked to has anything about chromosome 14 or DNA. You also failed to show in any way how their study is fraudulent.

    Finally, although the page to which you link mentions autism, nothing on that site discusses whether the APO-E4 protein plays a role in autism. Furthermore, it does not appear to make any distinction whatsoever between ethylmercury and methylmercury, when they behave quite differently in the body. If they remain in the body long enough to convert into inorganic mercury, they convert into different types, which also goes unaddressed.

    In the end, please enlighten me as to how the Harvard/MGH study discovering the DNA sequence on chromosome 14’s link to AD is a) fraudulent and b) germane to the discussion on autism and vaccines?

  389. Todd,
    Just search for “Homeland Security Act Eli Lilly Rider”. I see that links are moderated so I won’t add one.

    Harvard claimed that the APO-E4 was an age related thing that was so prevalent in Alzheimer’s that they were sure it was part of the cause. They also claimed they didn’t understand exactly what the APO-E4 did. The fact of the matter is that it is common knowledge that APO-E4 determines that those who have that version can not excrete any metals.
    So, Harvard simply lied about the fact by claiming they did not know what the APO-E4 did.
    If they can pawn this garbage off on the public as a straight genetic predictor of Alzheimer’s when we already know that it is a predictor of being susceptible to mercury poisoning that results in autism, they will also be able to use this as a reason to abort fetuses who will be branded as autistic when there is nothing actually wrong with them. This could also serve as more lies to make the vaccine makers look innocent since mercury won’t affect kids with the APO-E3 and E2 versions as severely as those with the APO-E4.
    So, if they can abort lots of kids with the APO-E4 and keep using thimerosal in the flu shot and autism numbers go down, this misinformation will be used as part of the con job to convince the public that thimerosal does not cause autism.
    Good plan, don’t you think, Todd?

  390. Just search for “Homeland Security Act Eli Lilly Rider”. I see that links are moderated so I won’t add one.

    Looks like yes, there was a rider in the Homeland Security Bill, but was later annulled. Sounds like the system self-corrected itself. Your point?

    Early in 2002, U.S. Senator Bill Frist tried to obtain protection for Eli Lilly from suits attached to legislation that would increase the availability of vaccines to average Americans, and regulate lawsuits against Eli Lilly involving thiomersal, but this attempt was thwarted by U.S. Senator Edward Kennedy, who opposed the measure. Despite Kennedy’s effort, however, identical legal protections found their way into Homeland Security legislation. After the bill passed, no one in Washington, D.C. was willing to take responsibility for having written or inserting the Lilly legal protections. The rider was later annulled by Congress in 2003

  391. @John Best

    I did a little more poking around for info on APO-E4 and found that APO-E4 is a risk factor for AD for reasons other than the mercury issue. See genome.wellcome.ac.uk/doc_WTX038956.html for more info.

    Harvard claimed that the APO-E4 was an age related thing that was so prevalent in Alzheimer’s that they were sure it was part of the cause. They also claimed they didn’t understand exactly what the APO-E4 did.

    It is related to onset age, as shown by various studies. I didn’t see where they claimed they did not understand what APO-E4 did. Also, here is a link to the study itself, rather than just a news article: sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B8JDD-4TT80P5-3&_user=10&_coverDate=11%2F17%2F2008&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=browse&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=0e6362d900d8223525803b00a5828b5b (add www to the beginning). There is also a more detailed article available from Harvard here: harvardscience.harvard.edu/medicine-health/articles/gene-scan-alzheimer-s-families-identifies-four-new-suspect-genes (again, add www).

    If they can pawn this garbage off on the public as a straight genetic predictor of Alzheimer’s when we already know that it is a predictor of being susceptible to mercury poisoning that results in autism

    Again, they did not lie, that I could see, but feel free to point out exactly where you feel they did so. Second, you have yet to show research that links mercury poisoning to autism. Third, genes and proteins are rarely, if ever, a one-to-one match in terms of what they do. For example, the APO-E4 protein may mean that someone is less able to rid their bodies of mercury, but it also acts, all on its own, to damage neural tissue, as shown by that first study I linked to.

    So, are you saying that APO-E4 only leads to mercury poisoning? That everyone with APO-E4 gets AD or autism? If so, please cite the scientific studies.

    Please explain why the vaccine makers bought protection from Congress with the Homeland Security Act.

    drksky already addressed this as being a moot point, but didn’t comment on the reasons. I cannot say what their reasons were without speaking with them. All I can do is speculate, which I’m sure is all you can do, as well. So, without any actual statement regarding the reasons, what’s you point, other than to raise a strawman?

  392. Todd W,
    The APO-E4 has absolutely nothing to do with age related onset of anything. You could have seen Harvard’s claim that they did not understand what it does if you had read the article. If you don’t read it, you can’t see it, a typical excuse from your ilk.

    No, wrong, the APO-E4 does NOT mean soneone is less able to rid themselves of mercury. It DOES mean that they can not rid themselves of ANY mercury.

    Again, they DID lie. I pointed it out twice for you.

    As for the Eli Lilly Rider, I’ll wait while you conjure up some wild speculation as to why anyone would bribe Congress to pass laws to protect them from lawsuits if they were innocent. Give me a break!

  393. @John Best

    The APO-E4 has absolutely nothing to do with age related onset of anything.

    The scientific literature would seem to disagree with you.

    If you don’t read it, you can’t see it, a typical excuse from your ilk.

    I did read it, thank you very much. And if you start getting all up in a huff and throwing tantrums again, I’ll stop responding until you cool down.

    Again, in the article, as well as in the actual study, they did not say that they do not know what APO-E4 does. They do state that they are uncertain exactly what the DNA sequence on chromosome 14 does, though they think that it is linked to age of onset. Please quote the offending statement from the article that you feel says they do not know what APO-E4 does.

    As for the Eli Lilly Rider, I’ll wait while you conjure up some wild speculation as to why anyone would bribe Congress to pass laws to protect them from lawsuits if they were innocent.

    Well, there’s the speculation that you seem to favor, that clearly they must know that their vaccine is dangerous and so are trying to circumvent the legal process in an effort to squelch costly suits.

    There’s also the possibility that their vaccines actually are beneficial and costly legal suits would hamper their ability to produce the vaccines. So, they seek to squelch law suits in an effort to maintain production levels.

    I’m sure someone could come up with even more potential reasons. But, again, such speculation either way is pointless, since we do not have any statements from the company or their lobbyists indicating the reason. By bringing it up, you are merely setting up a straw man and playing into conspiracy fears. If you’re going to bring anything up, try to make sure that you actually have some substance to back it up, rather than meaningless accusatory comments.

  394. Zetetic

    @debra
    Just a couple of quick comments before I run off to work…

    and recently merck was fined in autralian courts for pushing doctors to use their vaccines

    You seem to be referring to the resent court case again Merck for Vioxx. Please not that Vioxx is NOT a vaccine. It is a pain relief drug for arthritis sufferers. If that is what you are referring to, it’s a lie.

    Has it even occurred to you that if the medical companies are being successfully persecuted for new drugs (which are far more profitable to them than vaccines are), that it contradicts your claim that there is a cover up for vaccines? If they have such total control of most of the world’s governments, how are they found guilty and fined for other drugs?

    and herbs are not sugar pills lol

    He was referring to your belief in homeopathic “medicine” which is defined as diluting an ingredient to the point where it often doesn’t even exist in the “cure” any more. It based on the baseless belief that if you take a drug/herb that creates the same symptoms as what you want to cure. that if you dilute it enough it will magically produce the opposite effect and gets stronger the less of it there is. In other words homeopathic “medicine” is a placebo. If you believe in homeopathic treatments… it doesn’t speak well for your critical thinking faculties.

  395. Todd W,
    The article I linked to has been removed. Harvard probably had it removed after they saw my exposition of their fraud.
    Yes, they did say they they did not understand what the APO-E4 did. If I, a person not educated in science, can understand it, you’d think it would be easy for the dweebs from Harvard.

    As for the Lilly Rider, they wouldn’t be worried about squelching lawsuits if they were innocent.

  396. John Q.

    @Todd

    No problem. But let me suggest something. It is dangerous to be so caught up in something, or cheer for one side or another so strongly, that one loses objectivity (or for that matter gets caught up in people bashing because they happen to be successful and have an opinion that is not mainstream). Let’s remind ourselves that vaccine manufacturers are corporations, and as corporations their objective is to make a profit, regardless of health. What this means is that if they can get away with a few deaths, get away with it, and still make a profit they will (it’s called acceptable risk). So can you trust a vaccine manufacturer to do what is best for public health, or best for profits?? Why don’t we take a look at what other companies involved in producing health products have done. How about….Merck. Let’s take a look at Vioxx. Do you honestly believe that Merck didn’t know about the side effects of their drug, or do you think they thought the risk to public health was acceptable? What about researchers that were concerned about the drug and it’s side effects. Let’s just say that internal emails reveal that Merck wanted to “neutralize” or “discredit” researchers with negative opinions/ findings http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25272600-2702,00.html. So can producers of health products be trusted to make decisions in favor of public health-definitely not; profit over health always. So what else is interesting about thimerosal? Well, let’s see. It is metabolized into ethyl mercury and thiosalicylate. So what is thiosalicylate. Ever heard of acetylsalicylic acid (AKA Aspirin)? Ever heard of Reye’s Syndrome (it’s why we don’t give our kids under the age 19 and with a viral infection aspirin anymore). So is thiosalicylate contraindicated for pediatric patients with infections-yes-http://www.drugs.com/drug-interactions/flumist_d04892_sodium-thiosalicylate_d00844.html. Of course the example given is for live influenza; however, whose to say that it needs to be a live virus in order to cause the conditions needed to generate Reye’s syndrome, since the exact cause and mechanisms behind the syndrome are unknown. Hmmm, so here we are eliciting immune reactions in infants in the presence of ethyl mercury and a drug, thiosalicylate, whose chemical cousin is known to interact with viral infections to generate Reyes syndrome. Interestingly enough, the liver and brain are the most affected in children with Reye’s syndrome. So then, isn’t it a possibility that at low doses ethyl mercury, thiosalicylate, and the immune reaction generated by the introduction of inactivated viral antigens can act synergistically to harm the CNS of an infant? What balance of the three would you need to generate enough damage to the CNS that it is assayable? As for the safety of vaccines-I’m sure that some are and some are not. Remember, the polio vaccine was initially contaminated with SV40 virus, which has links to cancer. Also, anyone ever remember the Swine flu scare in 1976 in Ft. Dix. Well it’s noteworthy that this caused the vaccination of approx. 40 million people. The vaccination program was later abandoned because of 500 cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, which “coincidentally” happens to afflict a lot of girls given the HPV vaccine (Gardasil). As a caution though, don’t believe everything that you read, even if it is peer-reviewed. Remember everyone has their own agenda, motivation, and in the case of researchers, their sugar daddy that provides them with funding to carry out their research. Lastly, how could anyone believe a government or their agencies, when they hire those that generate crises to fix them???http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200905/imf-advice

  397. Bob

    It is dangerous to be so caught up in something, or cheer for one side or another so strongly, that one loses objectivity (or for that matter gets caught up in people bashing because they happen to be successful and have an opinion that is not mainstream). Let’s remind ourselves that vaccine manufacturers are corporations, and as corporations their objective is to make a profit, regardless of health. What this means is that if they can get away with a few deaths, get away with it, and still make a profit they will (it’s called acceptable risk). So can you trust a vaccine manufacturer to do what is best for public health, or best for profits?? Why don’t we take a look at what other companies involved in producing health products have done. How about….Merck. Let’s take a look at Vioxx. Do you honestly believe that Merck didn’t know about the side effects of their drug, or do you think they thought the risk to public health was acceptable? What about researchers that were concerned about the drug and it’s side effects. Let’s just say that internal emails reveal that Merck wanted to “neutralize” or “discredit” researchers with negative opinions/ findings (theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25272600-2702,00.) So can producers of health products be trusted to make decisions in favor of public health-definitely not; profit over health always. So what else is interesting about thimerosal? Well, let’s see. It is metabolized into ethyl mercury and thiosalicylate. So what is thiosalicylate. Ever heard of acetylsalicylic acid (AKA Aspirin)? Ever heard of Reye’s Syndrome (it’s why we don’t give our kids under the age 19 and with a viral infection aspirin anymore). So is thiosalicylate contraindicated for pediatric patients with infections-yes-(drugs.com/drug-interactions/flumist_d04892_sodium-thiosalicylate_d00844) Of course the example given is for live influenza; however, whose to say that it needs to be a live virus in order to cause the conditions needed to generate Reye’s syndrome, since the exact cause and mechanisms behind the syndrome are unknown. Hmmm, so here we are eliciting immune reactions in infants in the presence of ethyl mercury and a drug, thiosalicylate, whose chemical cousin is known to interact with viral infections to generate Reyes syndrome. Interestingly enough, the liver and brain are the most affected in children with Reye’s syndrome. So then, isn’t it a possibility that at low doses ethyl mercury, thiosalicylate, and the immune reaction generated by the introduction of inactivated viral antigens can act synergistically to harm the CNS of an infant? What balance of the three would you need to generate enough damage to the CNS that it is assayable? As for the safety of vaccines-I’m sure that some are and some are not. Remember, the polio vaccine was initially contaminated with SV40 virus, which has links to cancer. Also, anyone ever remember the Swine flu scare in 1976 in Ft. Dix. Well it’s noteworthy that this caused the vaccination of approx. 40 million people. The vaccination program was later abandoned because of 500 cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, which “coincidentally” happens to afflict a lot of girls given the HPV vaccine (Gardasil). As a caution though, don’t believe everything that you read, even if it is peer-reviewed. Remember everyone has their own agenda, motivation, and in the case of researchers, their sugar daddy that provides them with funding to carry out their research. Lastly, how could anyone believe a government or their agencies, when they hire those that generate crises to fix them???(theatlantic.com/doc/200905/imf-advice)

  398. To paraphrase an oldie…
    Everybody has an agenda except thee and me and I have my doubts about thee.

  399. The article I linked to has been removed. Harvard probably had it removed after they saw my exposition of their fraud.

    Ah, yes. You scared Harvard into submission…

    What Lilly was trying to get at was that they are being sued left and right by people with spurious claims. That’s why they wanted protection, not because they’re trying to kill our children.

    There’s a phrase for someone who sees a conspiracy in every action they have no control over. Paranoid Delusional…

  400. Mark Hansen

    @Bob,
    “…Let’s remind ourselves that vaccine manufacturers are corporations, and as corporations their objective is to make a profit, regardless of health. What this means is that if they can get away with a few deaths, get away with it, and still make a profit they will (it’s called acceptable risk). So can you trust a vaccine manufacturer to do what is best for public health, or best for profits?? …”

    Big Pharma™ would make a lot more by treating people for the diseases if they were unvaccinated. So clearly we can’t trust them to do what is best for profits.

  401. Mark Hansen

    Quick, John! Save yourself! Harvard’s truth supressionistas may already be at your front door! Run, and don’t look back! I’ll tell ‘em it wasn’t you but the one-armed man!!!!

  402. Mark Hansen

    Quick, John! Save yourself! Harvard’s truth supressionistas may already be at your front door! Run, and don’t look back! I’ll tell ‘em it wasn’t you but the one-armed man!!!!

  403. Mark Hansen

    Look, they even made me double post by accident! Is there nothing they won’t stoop to?

  404. Bob

    @Mark

    Talk is cheap. Show me the evidence to back up your statement, otherwise it’s just your opinion which counts for ……zip.

  405. Charlie Young

    Google the APO E4 gene…I only find reference to it being a cholesterol regulator. Those more in the know need to fill in the blanks for me. I don’t see it regulating mercury metabolism.

  406. Mark Hansen

    It counts just as much as yours, Bob. Where’s your citations?

  407. drksky,
    Not quite, they were being sued by people with legitimate claims, claims that anyone could easily prove in front of a jury.

    Accepting the fact that the CDC gave us about thimerosal causing autism is not paranoia, especially after you watch your child go from normal to being a brain dead zombie. Because I learned that fact, my kid is not a brain dead zombie now. He’s much better since I began removing mercury from his brain.

    I don’t think I scared Harvard. I think they just realized if they can’t fool an old English major like me that they aren’t going to fool too many people with their dishonesty. So, they’ll probably pick a different gene to be the subject of a different lie that people don’t already understand.

  408. Charlie Young

    @John Best

    Steer me to the info on the APO E4 gene regulating mercury metabolism.

  409. Bob

    @Mark

    You can read can’t you?

  410. @Bob
    The link to the Reyes Syndrome says it “may pose a theoretical risk”. All drugs and vaccines pose some risk. The benefits outweigh the risks by some considerable margin. And they don’t cause Autism.

  411. Charlie Young

    Looks like a good study to me, Bob. You are extrapolating your data to infer the combination of thiosalicylate, ethyl mercury, and the immune reaction create a “perfect storm” affecting the liver and CNS. As my high school physics teacher used to say, “Interesting theory. I wonder if it is correct?”

  412. Mark Hansen

    Sorry Bob, I was looking for the evidence of “…their objective is to make a profit, regardless of health.…” That didn’t seem to pop up anywhhere.

  413. @John Best

    Ah, the wonders of Google cache. Here is the complete text of the expired news article from MSNBC, reproduced here for educational purposes:

    WASHINGTON – Researchers combing the human gene map have found four more areas that affect the risk of Alzheimer’s disease and believe the studies are starting to point to new and better treatments.

    Some of the genes, associated with the most common form of Alzheimer’s, appear linked to known genetic risks for the degenerative brain disorder, the team at Harvard Medical School in Boston reported on Thursday.

    “We are on the cusp of a rare ‘science moment’ that could alter the way we diagnose, treat and prevent Alzheimer’s disease,” Rudolph Tanzi of Massachusetts General Hospital, who led the study, said in a statement.

    Tanzi’s team analyzed samples from more than 1,300 families for their study, published in the American Journal of Human Genetics.

    Dozens of genes have been linked with Alzheimer’s, most notably the APOE4 gene, which clearly raises the risk of developing the disease.

    Tanzi’s team did a genome-wide association study, using gene chips to check the activity of all human genes among families with Alzheimer’s patients and comparing them with families whose members had not developed the disease.

    They got the strongest indications from a stretch of DNA on chromosome 14.

    “The genetic association of Alzheimer’s with this novel chromosome 14 gene, which like APOE appears to influence age of onset, is sufficiently strong to warrant intensive follow-up investigations into its role in the process of nerve cell death in this disease,” Tanzi said.

    “This gene also is in the general vicinity of the presenilin-1 gene, which we know is an early-onset Alzheimer’s disease gene. We don’t know if that proximity is a coincidence, and we currently don’t know what the new gene does, although there is some indication it may control the activity of other genes.”

    Drugmakers are already starting to use genetics to develop Alzheimer’s treatments. Elan and Wyeth’s experimental drug bapineuzumab is being tested in people who do not carry a version of the APOE gene associated with higher Alzheimer’s risk.

    There is no cure for Alzheimer’s, the most common cause of dementia.

    The Alzheimer’s Association estimates as many as 5.2 million Americans have it and predicts that by 2010 nearly a half million new cases will occur each year.

    Current drugs can delay the symptoms slightly but patients inevitably lose their memories and abilities to find their way around and care for themselves.

    Now tell me, John, where in that piece do the researchers state that they do not know what APO-E4 does?

  414. @Bob

    I agree with you that Merck handled the Vioxx issue horribly. I would argue that, for certain individuals, it is still a good drug (i.e., for non-chronic use in individuals with no cardiovascular problems).

    About the Fort Dix flu vaccine bit, in that instance, the vaccines were tested for safety, though quickly due to strong government pressure to get the thing out as fast as possible. After those tests, the manufacturer made some changes, IIRC. The lots were not retested after those changes because of time constraints and pressure from the government. The government overreacted due to fears there would be a repeat of the pandemics of the ’20s and ’50s, and they failed to confirm the virus strain in question before releasing the vaccine. Their response was to rush the manufacturer, and certain safety protocols were circumvented. I agree that those vaccines should not have made it to market. However, this incident had a number of unique circumstances which make it different from vaccines in general.

    So then, isn’t it a possibility that at low doses ethyl mercury, thiosalicylate, and the immune reaction generated by the introduction of inactivated viral antigens can act synergistically to harm the CNS of an infant?

    Well, it’s a good thing that vaccines that interact with salicylates have a warning on them. For example, from the Varivax (varicella vaccine from Merck) labeling:

    Vaccine recipients should avoid use of salicylates for 6 weeks after vaccination with VARIVAX as Reye’s Syndrome has been reported following the use of salicylates during natural varicella infection (see CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY, Reye’s Syndrome). (available at merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/v/varivax/varivax_pi.pdf)

  415. “…which like APOE appears to influence age of onset,… ”

    How can APO influence age of onset at 12 months and also at about 720 months? Does that make sense to you Todd?

    When you try every moronic argument in the book to defend Pharma’s crimes, I’m sure you will have some “answer”.

  416. @John Best

    How can APO influence age of onset at 12 months and also at about 720 months?

    They are discussing its role in Alzheimer’s Disease, which, last I checked, does not affect a person at 12 months. There is research and evidence that supports that claim (do a PubMed search on APOE4 and Alzheimer’s). Are you suggesting that Alzheimer’s Diseases is actually autism? The symptoms are quite different. And you seem to have ignored my earlier comment that genes rarely, if ever, have only a single function.

    When you try every moronic argument in the book to defend Pharma’s crimes, I’m sure you will have some “answer”.

    There you go with the “moron” talk again. It’s time-out time for you, John. There’s a corner over there for you to stand in until you’re ready to behave like an adult again.

  417. @ Todd W

    You, sir, deserve some sort of Astonishing Patience Award. Phil should give you a signed copy of Death From The Skies or something for the amount of work you’ve put into this single thread since it started…

  418. @Pat

    Thanks. I just feel that it is better to be calm and patient than to sink to name-calling and ranting. I do slip sometimes, though.

  419. @Pat

    Oh, and one other thing. There are a lot of people who put a lot more work into this topic than I do, like Orac, Dr. Steve Novella and others. My guess is that they’re a bit busier than I am with their own sites and such to post too much here. :)

  420. @ Pieter Kok

    Just noticed this, re: 6,000 years

    > LOL, are you a closet creationist?

    Not in the slightest. However, we’ve got roughly 6,000 years of recorded history (albeit the confidence level rapidly drops as we go back past 100 years). If the sun rose in the west 6,100 years ago, we would not have a credible account to reference :)

  421. Todd w,
    Autism and Alzheimer’s are the same thing, caused by the same thing, an inability to rid oneself of metals.

  422. Andrew

    The most tragic and sad part of this is that many of these poor children will be removed from the gene pool, due to their parents’ stupidity.

  423. John – I’m afraid that stating that “Autism and Alzheimer’s are the same thing” removes for me any shred of credibility you may have had claim to.

    Not diagnostically or symptomatically similar to begin with – I am sure that much more learned minds than mine could point out particular problems with your hypothesis – backed up with appropriate research citations.

    Plus I have the added advantage of having a son with autism and a Grandparent with alzheimer’s (just in case I feel like a little anecdotal reassurance – in case of random failure of empirical research).

    On second thoughts, I don’t actually think you came to this discussion with any level of credibility on this topic.

  424. aw

    wow…
    @Elaine McKillop,
    ” For all of you who want to wine about getting sick or someone they know getting sick because they were not vaccinated, to damn bad, it has nothing to do with my choice.”

    Elaine, I never attacked anyone in my post because I have enough integrity to respect other people’s opinions- even if I do not agree with them. I tell my story because I want people to understand the potential danger of not vaccinating their family. I encourage parents to make their own choice about vaccination… I just want to make sure they have a fair chance to make an informed choice.

    I am not whining about being sick, I manage. I attend school full time, I am engaged and I travel all over the country to speak for various organizations. I have a better life than most people on this Earth and am extremely thankful for that.

    I cannot believe that a grown adult would have the audacity to accuse someone who has been through what I have of “whining” about their illness. When I got sick there was no recommendation for kids my age to be vaccinated for the disease. Now there is and I like to inform parents of that fact, so that other children do not have to deal with what I do every day.

    If you would like me to “whine,” I will gladly describe a day in my life, in detail, for you… just let me know.

    @lawrence:
    “My last post for the night – nothing I say is going to change your minds, obviously. But, what will you say to the parents of the child that is blinded by contracting the measles or sterilzed by the mumps? Or what will you say if the child dies?”

    Apparently she would say “stop whining.”

    If anyone wants to look up the TRUE ingredients in vaccines… go to: http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm

    the only vaccines that even contain thimerasol are given to adults– not children.

    Elaine, I do not feel bad for myself for what happened to me. I feel bad for my loved ones who had to watch it all… you know, like when I almost died and doctors had to dig into my groin to start an IV… when I told the doctor “I know I might die but can I have some pain medicine, please”… when my blood pressure was 20/40 and I almost went into cardiac arrest… when my priest had to come and give me anointing of the sick… when I had to be intubated and suctioned every hour when I was in the coma… when I ended up on full life support… when my fingertips and feet turned black and died… when I had surgery 2 or 3 times a week for a month and a half… when I got home and had to have a hospital bed in my living room for 2 months… when my parents had to watch me learn how to walk… for the second time. Oh yeah… and I feel bad for my mom… who still cries sometimes when i have to crawl on my knees up the stairs in my parent’s house.

    I feel bad for my fiancee who has to worry about how to pay for my medical costs for the rest of our lives… I feel sorry for my friends who are sick with worry every time I have a fever… and I feel sorry for all of the parents who do not know about the vaccine that could have prevented it.

    A more appropriate response on your part would be to say that you were sorry that I got sick from a vaccine preventable disease but that you disagree with my viewpoint. I suppose you are not sorry, though, and have convinced yourself that somehow I deserved it.

    I would not change what happened to me for anything in the world. Not even to have my legs back. I have become a much better person because of it… and I choose to use my experience to make a positive difference in this world. You should choose to do the same and stop the condemnation and name calling. It is extremely inappropriate and unattractive.

    I am truly sorry that autism exists and that you feel like there is a connection between autism and vaccines. What I do not understand is why you feel like the opposing side should have no voice… if you feel so strongly that you are correct and can prove it, why would you care what we say and who hears it?

  425. Autism and Alzheimer’s are the same thing, caused by the same thing, an inability to rid oneself of metals

    @John Best: Yep, got to agree with Grendel. You’ve now jumped the shark and no longer have any credibility.

  426. @John S.

    Sorry for taking so long to respond. I did some looking around at the links you provided, as well as some reviews of those studies and found some interesting stuff. It turns out that the first study you linked to (“Thimerosal exposure in infants and neurodevelopmental disorders:
    An assessment of computerized medical records in the
    Vaccine Safety Datalink”) was pretty flawed. More on that available at epiwonk.com/?p=55.

    In searching for reviews of the second study (“A meta-analysis epidemiological assessment of
    neurodevelopmental disorders following vaccines administered from 1994 through 2000 in the United States”), I discovered a letter that calls into question the validity of the Geiers’ research and ethics. That letter can be found here: neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/128/. Interestingly, in the introduction of this study, the Geiers state:

    In a series of previous epidemiological studies, various databases, including the California Department of Developmental Services (CDDS), Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS), US Department of Education, and the Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) database, have been examined, and significant links between exposure to Thimerosal-containing vaccines and neurodevelopmental disorders were found.

    The sources cited for this are 10 studies, all by the Geiers, including the flawed study that you had in your first link.

    Adding to the questions of validity are the Geiers’ conflicts of interest. See that letter I linked to for more information.

    The third link you provide (to the Canadian web site) actually supports what I stated in my initial post.

    As for the study from Arch. Toxicology, in the abstract, the authors state that

    Based on both criteria, an equimolar dose of ethylmercury was less neurotoxic than methylmercury, but a 20% increase in the dose of ethylmercury was enough to raise the sum of coordination disorder scores slightly and ganglion damage significantly above those in methylmercury-treated rats.

    So, ethylmercury, as I stated, is less toxic than methylmercury. It should further be noted that the levels of exposure in that study (8.0 mg Hg/kg methyl- or ethylmercuric chloride or 9.6 mg Hg/kg ethylmercuric chloride) are orders of magnitude higher than mercury exposure from vaccines.

    In all, you provided two sources of questionable validity, and two sources that support what I said.

  427. As a parent, I am one for getting my kids vaccinated, as I was when I was a child. And as my brothers and sisters were long time ago… and as also my wife and ll of her family.

    Vaccines are not meant to CURE diseases. They are meant to prepare our body to fight against diseases. They are meant to create allergic reactions in our own immunity system so it can create antibodies and a memory for the real active attackers. Then, depending of the particular immunity system of every particular human being (please remember: we are not photocopies or replicas coming out from an unique prototype… everyone has a distinct DNA signature… and with such… we all have our very own genetically weaknesses and strengths)… we would start fighting the diseases, hoping that our systems is ready for the battle.

    Vaccines are not Deflective Shields! Vaccines are not Ablative armor! But they help our system to prepare for an incoming raid of assaulting bacterias an viruses.

    Me, as a father of 3 (you can check this picture if you think I’m lying on this: http://picasaweb.google.com/jvannini/Varios#5283451433636221746 … and yes! Gee! I love Star Trek!), will not leave my kids alone in their right for a better living.

    As a father, it is my OBLIGATION to keep a close eye on my kids health. It’s my kids’ right!
    And that’s why I am obliged to read, and to do research and looking for solid information before applying something into their system. And I look for statistics and the opinion not from one but two Doctors always.

    I understand that vaccines are not 100% reliable… but that’s because vaccines are made to match the most they can all possible immunity systems. As I sad before: we are not copies. So I must be careful in the proper sense, watching closely to my kids after they’ve received a shot. And if they would show something rare.. I would go to the proper Doctor and made the proper analysis for them.

    I live in a Nation where BigPharmaTM has no possible participation. We lack of medicines every now and then, specially when their costs are so high that people can not afford it.

    Many go to those “organic medicine” searching for a “more economic” alternative… and they found all kind of recipes… that does not work!

    And they have “doctors” that do claims like this one: “your belly is so big because your intestines are filled with sh*t.”

    And they prescribe placebos and kept those poor souls coming and coming to their “clinics”… turning in a non-economic option.

    Are my kids going to suffer autism, measles, mumps, rubella or something like that? I really hope not. I trust the genetic pool from my family and my wife’s family has a good part on these… and will allow vaccines to prepare my kids for the fight.

    And that will happen if I stick to the proper scheduled for them. I would not expect a miracle cure if they got a disease and I run to apply a shot AFTER they got the disease! Vaccines are not antidotes! Vaccines are preemptive tools, not magic medicine!

  428. drksky,
    Autism and Alzheimer’s are the same thing, caused by the same thing, an inability to rid oneself of metals

    @John Best: Yep, got to agree with Grendel. You’ve now jumped the shark and no longer have any credibility.

    Since I have cured autism by removing that mercury, I’d say you’re the one with zero credibility.

  429. I agree that vaccines do not cause autism, and I agree that mercury levels in vaccines that use Thimerosol are low. That said, giving ANY quantity of mercury to a child is a bad idea … No one questions that mercury is highly toxic to eveyone, especially to children. At this point, I wouldn’t feed my children canned tuna, or many other kinds of fish that contain such heavy metals, and I don’t see why I should assume that vaccines containing mercury (or prepared using mercury) are safe for my children.

    For me, the vaccination question was never about autism. Its ALWAYS been about the fact that mercury is toxic at ANY level, especially to children, and the safest amount of mercury in a child is zero. I think its foolish to reject all vaccinations, but I also think its pretty silly to downplay the toxicity of mercury at ANY level in products that are designed for children to ingest.

    Lets be scientific about this … mercury is toxic to children, and while we may set levels that have minimal risk, there is NO “safe” level of mercury in a child’s diet. I will not willingly give my child anything to ingest that was prepared with, or contains mercury, and that includes vaccines. I believe in vaccinaing my children … I don’t believe in intentionally injecting mercury into them in conjunction with vaccines.

  430. Mark Hansen

    Lyle aka Elron, you do not then need to fear vaccinations. There are no childhood vaccines with thimerosal (aka mercury) in them. Flu vaccines may contain thimerosal but there are thimerosal free versions. BTW don’t live near coal-fired power plants or sources of vulcanism (including thermal springs). There are other sources for mercury in the environment so you’d better check on them as well. You might want to avoid using compact flourescent lights or flourescent tubes. Better stick to wood fires (using carefully selected wood) and candle-light (or incandescent globes if you can still find them).

  431. Robert

    So many things to say, so little time.

    @Phil Plait: Thank you very much for bringing this to everyone’s attention!

    @Todd W.: You have been the most cordial, informative, and reasonable responder in this entire, long, long-winded set of responses. Congratulations! Others here have also done their part and deserve congratulations as well.

    @Anti-vaxers: In general, I don’t know where I stand on this. Oh, vaccines are a necessity. Don’t be fooled by the BigPharma(tm) conspiracy theorists jogging about here. Vaccine effectiveness is a fact, reality, exists, has stats, data, trials, live people (instead of dead people from pandemics and plagues), you name it. Those saying there is no such thing are imbeciles (and I offer that slur in the most derogatory manner humanly possible). I can only suppose that these type of people also believe that wearing glasses or contact lenses doesn’t correct vision because, obviously, people who do so still can’t see any better. As noted: Head.Desk.Bang.

    Go here (this is a WHO/WHA/CDC/GPEI/UNICEF/RotaryIntl. supported site):
    polioeradication.org/history.asp

    As probably already linked:
    who.int/topics/immunization/about/en/index.html
    who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs288/en/index.html
    who.int/immunization/documents/positionpapers/en/index.html

    Now, whether trace amounts of a mercury derivative such as Thimerosal may have contributed to the suspected onset of autism is a small percentage of cases, I’m not 100% sold that it had no contribution but very close to sold. So far, no clinical (scientifically performed) studies have made the linkage between MMR w/Thimerosal and autism except for one retracted, flawed, suspected of vested interest study by Wakefield. That’s extremely flimsy evidence even in a court of law (in which the link was also dismissed as unconvincing) on which to hang the LIFE of your children and the children with whom your children may have contact.

    In other words, to avoid a very tenuous (and unsupported) possibility of your child acquiring autism from vaccinations, you would rather put your children, friends, relatives, and any other hapless human who encounters your unvaccinated children at risk of death or life-long debilitations. Wow, that is penultimately conceited, self-centered, unempathetic, hauty, ignorant, and foolish. What great examples to your children!

    Finally, homeopathy is bull. The hypothesis has been shown to be false. The efficacy is 0 (zero) in a clinical sense. The amount of active ingredient in the emulsion is 0 (zero). After only several succusions, there is not 1 (!!!) molecule of the active ingredient left in the emulsion. Therefore, if you are going to talk about ‘water memory’ (woo woo), don’t talk to me about stats, science, medicine, math, reality, facts, etc. You are now an outright loony.

  432. Anonymous

    See the following theory:
    The ‘theory of mind’ (ToM) hypothesis of autism. Tom is an hypothesis first published in 1985.
    Other articles ask what caused the autism epidemic?
    The CDC studies say it is not MMR or Thimerosal. Other hypotheses have included autoimmune diseases, etc.

    Data:
    Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA) Data website:
    http://www.ideadata.org/PartBChildCount.asp
    Pregnancy Risk Assessment Monitoring System (PRAMS) sleep position data:
    http://www.cdc.gov/prams/2002PRAMSSurvReport/MultiStateExhibits/Multistates16.htm
    Centers for Disease Control (CDC) Birth Data:
    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/births.htm
    2006 Median Income Data: – U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development
    NOTICE PDR-2006-01

    Autism Spectrum Disorders, Asperger’s Syndrome, and Pervasive Developmental Disorders – Not Otherwise specified (PDD-NOS)
    Gastrointestinal Disorders also known as GER is a common comorbidity
    Autism patients tend to have minicolumn abnormalities and increased amounts of white matter
    Casanova MF, van Kooten IA, Switala AE, Ven Engeland H, Heinsen H, Steinbusch HW, Hof PR, Trippe J, Stone J, Schmitz C. Minicolumnar abnormalities in autism. Acta Neuropathol. 2006 Sep; 112(3); 287-303.
    Mostofsky SH, Burgess MP, Larson JCG. Increased motor cortex white matter volume predicts motor impairment in autism. Brain (2007), 130, 2117-2122

    Maternal smoking decreased significantly between 1990 and 2002
    Infant suffocation deaths increased 14% per year on average between 1996 and 2004
    Centers for Disease Control. Smoking & Tobacco Use – Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Reports (MMWRs) – Smoking During Pregnancy – United States, 1990-2002 – October 7, 2004 / Vol. 53/ No. 39 http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/MMWR/2004/mm5339_highlights.htm
    Shapiro-Mendoza CK, Kimball M, Tomashek KM, Anderson RN, Blanding S.US Infant Mortality Trends Attributable to Accidental Suffocation and Strangulation in Bed From 1984 Through 2004: Are Rates Increasing? Pediatrics 2009;123;533-539

    Here is a good article on diagnosing this:
    Filipek P, Accardo P, Ashwal S, Baranek G, Cook E, Dawson G, Gordon B, Gravel J, Johnson C, Kallen R, Levy S, Minshew N, Ozonoff S, Prizant B, Rapin I, Rogers S, Stone W, Teplin S, Tuchman R, Volkmar F. Practice parameter: Screening and diagnosis of autism Report of the Quality Standards Subcommittee of the American Academy of Neurology and the Child Neurology Society NEUROLOGY 2000;55:468–479 http://internet.dscc.uic.edu/forms/medicalhome/AutismRef.pdf

    Also,
    SIDS, Autism, Autism Spectrum Disorder, Plagiocephaly, etc. are all
    conditions that the medical profession is trying to treat.
    The SIDS back sleep (Supine) sleep recommendations began in 1992
    The SIDS “Back to Sleep” campaign began in 1994.
    In 1996 the AAP SIDS Task Force, led by Dr. John Kattwinkel recommended the supine sleep position and not the side(lateral) or front(prone).
    THe Netherlands began their SIDS Back to Sleep Campaign in 1987.
    Sleep is necessary for memory consolidation, declarative learning, and procedural learning.

    The following are useful articles which discuss many of these issues indepth:
    American Academy of Pediatrics Task Force on Infant Positioning and SIDS. Positioning and SIDS. Pediatrics. 1992;89:1120-1126
    Hogberg U, Bergstrom E. Suffocated Prone: The Iatrogenic Tragedy of SIDS. American Journal of Public Health. 2000;90:527-531
    National Infant Sleep Position Household Survey. Summary Data. updated: 10/16/08 Website: http://dccwww.bumc.bu.edu/ChimeNisp/NISP_Data.asp
    Kattwinkel J, Hauck F.R., Moon R.Y., Malloy M and Willinger M Infant Death Syndrome: In Reply, Bed Sharing With Unimpaired Parents Is Not an Important Risk for Sudden. Pediatrics 2006;117;994-996
    Buzsáki, G. 1989. Two-stage model of memory trace formation: A role for “noisy” brain states. Neuroscience 31: 551–570.
    Hasselmo, M.E. 1999. Neuromodulation: Acetylcholine and memory consolidation. Trends Cogn. Sci. 3: 351–359.
    Wierzynski DM, Lubenov EV, Gu M, Siapas AG. State-Dependent Spike-Timing Relationships between Hippocampal and Prefrontal Circuits during Sleep. Neuron 61, 587-596, February 26, 2009
    Walker MP, Stickgold R. Sleep, Memory, and Plasticity. Annu. Rev. Psychol. 2006. 57: 139-66
    Gais S, Born J. Declarative memory consolidation: Mechanisms acting during human sleep. Learn Mem. 2004 Nov-Dec; 11(6): 679-685
    Davis BE, Moon RY, Sachs HC, Ottolini MC. Effects of sleep position on infant motor development. Pediatrics. 1998 Nov; 102(5):1135-40.
    Skadberg BT, Markestad T. Consequences of Getting the Head Covered During Sleep in Infancy. Pediatrics 1997;100;e6
    AJ Williams, RD Jitendra, JB Phillips, Y Lin, T McCabe, FC Tortella. Neuroprotective Efficacy and Therapeutic Window of the High-Affinity N-Methyl-D-aspartate Antagonist Conantokin-G: In Vitro (Primary Cerebellar Neurons) and In Vivo (Rat Model of Transient Focal Brain Ischemia) Studies1
    Stradling JR, Thomas G, Warley AR, Williams P, Freeland A. Effect of adenotonsillectomy on nocturnal hypoxaemia, sleep disturbance, and symptoms in snoring children. Lancet. 1990;335 :249 –253

  433. wise one

    If everyone who thinks vaccines are safe & vaccines will protect them will just take the damn shot, then they shouldn’t worry about those who don’t want or believe in it possibly infecting others, since the non-believers would be the only ones left at risk. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to realize this.

    You know-it-alls always try to force your point of view on others, demonizing anyone who disagrees with your “enlightenment” as some kind of dangerous infidel, to the point of forcing them to accept a foreign substance into their bodies that they don’t want for personal, health, or religious reasons.

    Let each person make the decision for themselves and let’s see who fares the best- The Naturalists, or the dupes of the Pharmacuetical Industrial Complex, the controlled mainstream media establishment, Darwin, Freud, Kinsley and John Maynard Keynes.

    You people make me sick with your self-arrogance. All that excellent research, then you come to ignorant conclusions. Why don’t you fools follow the money trail and the ruined lives left in the wake of this issue?

  434. 68787

    I agree with author of blog.

    In that vaccines are good for the living current generation of humanity. (wealthy nations)

    However prolonged/increased use of medicines/antibodies/vaccines will eventually lead to future generations through whatever/however the whole dna inheritance thing works becoming more suspectible to infections/bacteria which would not otherwise be so bad. Basically becoming dependent on external meds.

    Much like how if you use steroids your body stops test production cause hey why go buy milk at walmart when your orny big fat nymph wife is lactating.

    And why kids who get chickenpox at an early age are pretty much failsafe from it. We all need controlled EXPOSURE for immunity and vaccines are a gr8 way to do it. Being injected with sterile HIV is a much better way than dicking a crackho up the pooper. (well that is argueable!!!!)

    i’m pro exposure but very left on the use/abuse of antibiotics constant germ-xing of the body, constant sterile food,etc.. Everyone needs regular exposure/immunity from within otherwise when it hits it will hit hard.

    Squirrels are 100% immune from rattlesnake venom. Know how? Death. Lots and lots of it over a long time. Had they taken antivenoms daily they would still die from it unless they had that external source. Point being- exposure yourself. Vaccines for the nasties and maybe don’t germx yourself 5 times a day and pop an antibiotic everytime you sneeze.

  435. Maezzy

    You PPL make me sick. Too Bad there’s not a vaccine for that.

  436. traveler

    Human beings have lived and thrived for thousands of years as have all species by evolving and adapting to their environment. Yet in the last 50 years we have decided that we are to not allow nature to have its way, we are to manipulate and alter all the way down to the genetic level so that week among us shall now propagate and flourish their inadiquate genome and spread it throughout the populations until all of us are endangered by their meer presence. Meanwhile the viruls and diseases grow ever stronger generation by generation with fresh weeker and weeker hosts to feast and populate upon and within, while our futile attempts to control them only make them stronger. So i ask you oh god like ones, who is winning?

  437. Orange Lantern

    traveler,

    It is a fascinating discussion as to who is winning in the world of disease control, but I can sure tell you who is not winning spelling bees.

  438. Jeanmarie

    @ Todd W., I second Shane’s point back in comment # 174, I applaud your patience and courtesy to those whose views contradict the majority here (which includes me).

    I have learned a lot from this blogpost and similar ones and from the comments as well. I would only like to add that not all the anti-vaccine or vaccine-skeptical crowd are dimwits, illiterate or willfully ignorant, as I know some smart, educated, thoughtful people that have pored through whatever they could find on the subject of vaccines and came to the conclusion they’re bad news. I don’t share that conclusion, but there really are honest, well-spoken people who can put together a sentence and punctuate it, too, who question the current vaccine schedule, for instance. I’m just saying. I initially didn’t take the hullabaloo about vaccines all that seriously because a) I don’t have kids and so have never had to make decisions about whether to vaccinate for another human being, and b) while I had some vaccinations as a kid, I also had mumps, measles, chicken pox and German measles as a kid and it seemed like everyone of my generation got all these diseases and survived them just fine (I was born in 1957), so I didn’t realize for a long time how serious these could be. Of course I knew about polio, and got polio shots as far as I can remember, and shots before traveling to India, etc.

    I know some people find it hard to be patient with ignorance or lack of scientific understanding in others, but the disdainful, rude attitudes often displayed by those in the know aren’t really persuasive to most people, rather it solidifies the “us vs them” mentality, in my experience (just anecdotal, I know!).

    But I understand and share the skepticism toward the pharmaceutical companies and even our regulatory agencies, because there is plenty of evidence they are often bad actors. I used to be a health-care industry and science editor at Bloomberg News. That doesn’t make me a scientist or expert, but it did make me aware of these issues.
    I don’t think that Big Pharma concocted a vaccine plot for profit, or any plot at all. No, most of them don’t primarily make their money off vaccines, as is commonly supposed (it seems like the little vaccine biotechs get bought up by giant pharmas anyway so they’re just one profit center among many). Neither do pediatricians make boatloads of money from giving flu shots or MMR etc. (not that they shouldn’t be compensated for their time and expense in providing that service anyway!).

    But that doesn’t mean the flow of money from Pharmas to doctors and lawmakers and regulators (and the revolving door between the groups) isn’t seriously disturbing and in need of addressing. I think part of the emotional attachment some people may have to the anti-vaccine view is that it fits neatly (at least superficially so) with other evidence of corporate and regulatory malfeasance.

    I do have one lingering question about the CDC’s influenza figures, but I’ll post that separately. Keep up the good work, and thank-you.

  439. aspiechildinaspen

    Jenny mcCarthy’s son was never autistic, that is not news to those of us who understand autism. McCarthy has never admitted that her son never had autism, but instead has pushed foward in her monetary driven crusade to promote autism awareness. The problem is: her son was never autistic. He had severe seizures. He was treated with anti-seizure meds. He got better. End of story. What some ignorant folks dont undersand is her son was never autistic.

  440. Chris

    You have the right to do and say whatever it is that you wish (as long as it does not impede anyone else). Do I care what Jim Carrey had to say? No. Should anyone care.. no. He does, however, have the right to say or post whatever it is that he wishes.. as we all do! I’m not “against” vaccines.. but no one should be forced to inject themselves or their children with ANYTHING unless they decide it is what they would like to do.
    I understand that some people out there would like to express the “facts” of how it all works, and the compensation that doctors/pharmaceutical companies receive.. but it’s all irrelevant in the end.. because NO ONE has the right to FORCE anyone to do ANYTHING, if Family A wants to keep their children on schedule for all vaccinations and Family B decides they aren’t going to vaccinate (or pick and chose which ones to administer) that is their right… Personally it’s none of anyone’s business in the first place.
    If you’re worried about your own children keep them on schedule and keep a level of awareness of who they’re around. Stop with the holier-than-thou bickering and just suck it up and deal with the fact that NOT EVERYONE will agree.

  441. Rod Rye

    I suppose it’s your choice to kill your children and risk those who can not be vaccinated for a belief with no basis in fact (actually there are indicators that the MMR lowers the incidence of Autism, when they removed it in Japan, the incidence of Autism increased !). In exchange for a significantly increased real risk of diseases that were killing and disabling our parents, and still disable and impair millions world wide annually. Due to a bizarre belief that you live in a bubble and are somehow isolated from those millions of people.

    On the other hand, there is a proven link between car travel and death, and I bet people aren’t going to stop driving any time soon. Their children aren’t nearly as important as their convenience, unless it’s someone else’s fault.

  442. Jemima

    “462. Chris Says:
    January 25th, 2011 at 9:06 pm
    You have the right to do and say whatever it is that you wish (as long as it does not impede anyone else). Do I care what Jim Carrey had to say? No. Should anyone care.. no. He does, however, have the right to say or post whatever it is that he wishes.. as we all do! I’m not “against” vaccines.. but no one should be forced to inject themselves or their children with ANYTHING unless they decide it is what they would like to do.”

    How sensible.

    Why shouldn’t people be free to decide what is best for their family?

    Why can’t those in favor of vaccination just quietly vaccinate their OWN children and stop worrying about those who don’t want them?

    Your children are protected, right?

  443. flip

    #464 Jemima

    Vaccines work best when used by the most amount of people. As explained countless times, there are people who can’t be vaccinated (they are already sick, immune problems, too young, allergic, etc.) and by vaccinating yourself and your children you create an invisible barrier (look up ‘herd immunity’) for those people.

    It’s not just about your children, it’s about everyone. You, me, the elderly, the young and the sick.

    Your point is brought up time and time again and it always comes down to the misunderstanding that vaccines are only about one person. They’re not. They never were and never will be. To protect one child, you have to also make sure you protect everyone else, otherwise disease will have a foothold.

    PS. It’s not just about protecting the kids. You can get sick too! Have you had your booster shots?

  444. Andrew

    Jemima,

    Hard as it is for you to believe, most people don’t like to see children suffer (and possibly become permanently disabled or dead) from preventable disease (I realize that some of the antivaxxers who have posted on this thread take perverted glee in the suffering of children but they are a minority). Therefore people support measures that help prevent the suffering of children – and one of the most effective measures available is vaccines.

  445. no noame

    You ask for evidence? Well what kind of evidence supports vaccines? there is no indefinite support of vaccines – it’s more of a theory and the numbers don’t ad up – most vaccines were introduced when the illness they treat were on the way down or nil and that is a fact. look it up yourself – And most of those illnesses spiked when the vaccines were introduced. – Do your own research!

    What about the thousands of illnesses that plague humanity that don’t have vaccines? Vaccines are proven to lower immunity and thus making you more likely to come down with those thousands of illnesses compared to the handful of what ifs they treat.

    and lets talk about how long vaccines actually last from a chemistry point of view. Vaccines last anywhere from 5-10 years and there is no way to tell where you stand. so lets think about it; lets say everyone in the US has vaccines that lasted 10 years – do you think everyone from the age of 15 or even 25 if they had their boosters are fully re-vaccinated? think about it!!!! why is there not constant outbreaks of these illnesses???

    They target little bodies because that is where the money is, where the most harm is done.

    WAKE UP!

    Jim made it big because of his drive,intelligence and ambition all of witch show more character than 95% of the population; so yes he is smart enough to follow, I’m sure he knows much more than he will tell the media or YOU . Think about it – like all the medical doctors don’t have vested interest in either illness or vaccines – C’mon people wake up!

  446. Andrew

    no noame: Pretty funny stuff, but no matter how ridiculous you make your parody, you’ll find some pro-disease advocate who says the same thing, and is serious!

  447. Natasha Kenworthy

    I have looked a most of the links provided above. Even Wikipedia disagrees with you…• “Formaldehyde can be toxic, allergenic, and carcinogenic.” “Phenoxyethanol(POE) breaks down to phenol and acetaldehyde, acetaldehyde converts to acetate. Phenol can disable the immune system’s primary response mechanism. Given that, it is at best ironic, that phenoxyethanol is used as an anti-bacterial in vaccines. Acetaldehyde occurs during the breakdown of ethanol, (alchohol and 2-phenoxyETHANOL), it is a suspected carcinogen.”

    The ‘evidence’ is wrong. Here is a much better example of fact based evidence that vaccines have done very little to help rid us of any virus:

    http://genesgreenbook.com/resources/obamsawin/ImmunizationGraphs-RO2009.pdf

    I’m guessing this post will be deleted. So read it while you can…

    Just another point. Do you know there has NEVER, EVER been a vaccination study on any long term side effects? Also, they do not ask us to report issues. Therefore, the real picture is VERY different.

    BE INFORMED.

  448. Andrew

    “I’m guessing this post will be deleted. So read it while you can…”

    Wrong – just like the rest of your post. The owner of this blog knows that the truth will win out if it is heard, so he’s not afraid of letting your post sit here forever. It’s the antivaxxer sites that delete all opposing posts – because they know the truth will out, unless they delete it.

    “Just another point. Do you know there has NEVER, EVER been a vaccination study on any long term side effects?”

    No – I didn’t know that – because it’s a lie – and a pretty obvious one.

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