The Australian antivax movement takes its toll

By Phil Plait | April 26, 2009 11:22 am

In America, people who claim vaccines cause autism are a major health threat. Some of these folks are just parents, people concerned about their kids, people desperately looking for a cause for a devastating illness. Others are vocal advocates of nonsense, saying things that are proven beyond reasonable doubt to be untrue.

The end result? Kids, including infants, are getting sick, and some of them are dying. Never, ever forget that, no matter how loudly these people yell, and no matter what garbage they spout (including, inevitably, in the comments that will follow this very post). Babies are dying.

In Australia, this movement is taking root as well. Calling the alarm to this, a TV program in Oz called "Sunday Night" aired an excellent exposé of what happens when parents don’t vaccinate their kids: they risk their children’s lives, and those of others. In the case shown on the TV show, a four-week-old baby, Dana McCaffery, died of whooping cough. This innocent infant wasn’t eligible for vaccination yet, but the lack of herd immunity — that region has lower-than-average vaccination rates — sealed her fate. The fact that other parents didn’t vaccinate their kids gave that little girl a death sentence.

Here’s the segment from that program. Warning (and I’m serious): if you are a parent, or any kind of feeling human being, this segment is seriously disturbing. I could barely watch it.

Maggie at Sceptic’s Book has written quite a moving article about this report and the result. The reporter in this TV program, Rebecca Maddern, did a pretty good job, though giving way too much time and credence to antivax mouthpiece Meryl Dorey, who spouts the usual antivax mendacities about vaccination, including bragging — bragging — that she was exposed to diseases when she was a kid, and didn’t get sick. At the six minute mark of that clip, she chillingly says that no one dies from measles or whooping cough.

Ms. Dorey, please tell that to the parents of Dana McCaffery, the baby who was just one month old when she died from whooping cough.

The Australian skeptics are trying to get the word out about this, including giving praise to the reporter (who, it should be noted, cut to a picture of Dana McCaffery right after Dorey spouted her awful, horrifying garbage). I encourage you to watch that clip (if you can stomach it), read what Maggie wrote, and then email the station about this very, very serious problem.

The antivaxxers claim to be concerned about children… but their total lack of critical thinking, their denial of the research, and their wholesale belief in conspiracy theories and antiscience rhetoric is making children sick. And some of these children are dying.

It’s that simple. Vaccinate your kids. The life you save may be your own child’s, and it may very well be the life of a child of some other parent who doesn’t have the choice you have.

Vaccinate.

Comments (329)

Links to this Post

  1. austroscepticus » Anti-Impf Wahn fordert in Australien bereits Todesopfer | April 26, 2009
  2. Noblesse Oblige » Blog Archive » How Anti-Vaxxer Madness Leads To Dead Babies | April 26, 2009
  3. The Patriot Axe Message » Blog Archive » Childhood Vaccines and Propaganda | April 26, 2009
  4. Scion Gradient » Measles by the Truckload | April 26, 2009
  5. Dan’s Demented Ramblings » Blog Archive » The Rise Of The Anti-vacc Movement, Are We Still The Clever Country?? | April 26, 2009
  6. randalflagg.net | April 26, 2009
  7. The Godless Heathen Blog » Anti-Vaccination Nonsense | April 27, 2009
  8. Journey through a Burning Mind » Bad news from the vaccine-front in Australia | April 27, 2009
  9. 9:46am. Here’s what’s up. - Prophet King Governance Press Tumble Log | April 27, 2009
  10. Autism, vaccines, Australia, and some good news for a change | Bad Astronomy | Discover Magazine | April 30, 2009
  11. Antivax kills. | Bad Astronomy | Discover Magazine | May 4, 2009
  12. the fallout from medical luddism « weird things | May 4, 2009
  13. Jenny McCarthy is an Idiot, Stop Letting Her Talk | Frugal Urbanite | May 4, 2009
  14. Oprah Winfrey Gives Platform to Anti-Vax Movement « The Skeptical Teacher | May 7, 2009
  15. | Mighty Mother | May 20, 2009
  16. So many bad puns, so little time « Evolving Thoughts | May 23, 2009
  17. The Harm in Believing in Autism Myths | Mighty Mother | June 1, 2009
  18. Mighty Mother » Blog Archive » The Harm in Believing in Autism Myths | July 27, 2009
  19. Australian skeptics strike back against antivaxxers! | Bad Astronomy | Discover Magazine | August 5, 2009
  20. Will an Australian infant’s death finally force antivaxxer introspection? - settingsun’s Diary - RedState web01.prod.theplanet.eaglepub.com 174.120.27.221 | August 13, 2009
  21. the fallout from medical luddism | weird things | August 30, 2009
  22. Vaktsineerimisest « Värske aju | May 23, 2010
  23. ¿Qué daño hace? | Animal de Ruta | September 7, 2010
  24. Measles by the Truckload – Aaron Golas | January 25, 2011
  25. Vaccines and Autism - How Do You Think? | September 26, 2012
  26. The anti-vaxers are alive and well in Australia | Young Australian Skeptics | September 28, 2012
  1. Read this first please: http://larianlequella.com/2009/04/pro-disease-nutters.shtml

    Then, if you are truly ready to state your pro-disease case, you can post.

  2. Pieter Kok

    Phil, I still think you should write a counter piece for HuffPo about this. It could make a real difference!

  3. Whoa. A global warming post followed by a pro-vaccine post. You are a glutton for punishment, Phil. The crackpots are going to be coming out of the woodwork today.

  4. Wow, what a coincidence, I just sent you this same exact piece. It’s very important that word gets out about this thing. The warning is deserved. I consider myself to be fairly jaded, but it killed me to watch this, and I’m not a parent.

  5. Can I just add: This is rapidly becoming one of the most important issues I’ve been thinking about lately. It has really been somewhere on my mind all week. It’s gotten under my skin in a big way. I’m angry, and I want to do something, anything. This is mainly a war for hearts and minds more than anything- but I’m tired of simply reading pro-vax articles and offering up “Amens!” There really needs to be something grassroots here in my city that I can find.

  6. Rob

    Can I add that they should edit out the very end of the clip.. it’s a bit of a non-sequiter.

  7. But Phil, be fair.

    It’s their choice not to vaccinate their children and put others at risk because they’re scared that Big Pharma is going to kill their kids in the name of profit! It’s not like they have any sort of responsibility not to be a walking health hazard to the public at large…

    Oh wait, actually they do. And while it’s indeed their choice, they’re putting thousands of kids in their immediate vicinity at risk. Just because Jenny McCartney said that vaccines are bad while Jim Carrey kept nodding like a bobble-headed doll and Larry King sat there slackjawed, going through his typical repertoire of softball questions, doesn’t invalidate multiple studies and scientific facts that show the anti-vaxx movement as a combination of hysteria and a lack of much needed education about diseases and their prevention.

  8. Kev

    I blogged about this awhile back – one of poor Dana’s relatives joined the comment thread (I verified to be sure it really was) and still the antivaxxers kept their shameful message coming

  9. Powerful piece, Phil. My cell phone has become a dumping ground for these sort of videos. Should anyone come along and say “Psychics help grieving families” or “Homeopathy works!”, I can whip out my phone and show them a documentary that shows otherwise. If they don’t have the time/desire to watch it on the spot, I can Bluetooth it over to their phone.

    The only way to combat these nasty memes is to get the word out. Forward this video along to any believer you know, or better yet send it to anyone who’s sitting on the fence.

  10. I was doing some searches about antivaccination and came across this:

    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v452/n7184/full/452128a.html

    The key point of the article, in case you can’t read it (I have institutional access):

    “The authors’ conclusion is that anti-vaccination communications play on a much richer field of considerations in parents’ heads than the official communications. The latter rely on science-based reassurance — and, indeed, were received by the parents with a relatively high degree of trust. But they tell a much less comprehensive and connected story than the anti-vaccination communications, which in some cases ended up having a correspondingly higher degree of influence.”

    It seems that sadly huge part of the problem is literally the prevalence and persuasiveness of the message itself. Ipso facto, it should be evident that new strategies must be undertaken to improve the pervasiveness and persuasiveness of the pro-vaccination message. It’s not enough to give parents information. We can expose them to the information, but the antivax message spreads using the same kinds of cognitive mechanisms that most conspiracy theories utilize. The parents need to walk away convinced. When it comes to UFOs, I’m more or less okay with taking our time in taking these things down on a case-by-case basis. There may be harm in it, but the relative level of harm is low.

    In this case, however, we are dealing with something a lot more serious. I’m a lot more anxious to see better message control on this issue in particular. This isn’t something that we can coexist with on a long enough timescale. I’m not forecasting doom and gloom and the end of days, but this is a serious case of: “Either the idea dies, or people die.” I have very little sympathy for notions, ideas aren’t sentient, I wouldn’t regret destroying it.

  11. CryoTank

    Sad.
    What is equally sad is that the antivax nutters will blame this on something else, probably related to the evil modern medicine of course, because how else would a healthy baby get whooping cough?

    We really must get active and prevent this insanity from spreading further.

    There are few things that annoy me more than people who are resistant to facts and who are so certain that only they have the truth and whoever dares to disagree is closed minded. Those ppl should really think again. Closedmindedness is the inability to consider that one might be wrong.

  12. Very poweful. Can I just say something though…Autism is not an illness…nor is it a disease. It is a neurological disorder.

  13. CryoTank

    @kathleen
    Right. But tell that to McCarthy and her goons. She thinks it’s curable with dieting and magic crystals :(

  14. Heavens. :( My husband, who works in the ER at a local hospital, has to see this sort of thing every day. I don’t know how he does it. He told me one mother, upon finally having her eyes opened to the fact that vaccines *DO* matter, looked at her poor extremely ill child and said, “What have I DONE to you?” This serves to remind us – it’s not just what she’s done to her child but to all the other children.

    To anyone who thinks kids don’t get sick, go to your local hospital, ask, look and see. They DO get sick, and sometimes they even die. Vaccines are not given out of hard-hearted cruelty, they actually save lives!

  15. Huron

    The government should not allow parents to put their children at risk like that.

  16. I’m not a parent, but I’m quivering with rage with tears running down my face having watched this.

    A very good report. It could have played harder ball, but I think that would have crossed the line from “journalistic coverage” to “editorialising”. We need more reports like this, from all over the world to show the anti-vaxxers that they are killing kids.

  17. Hmmm, more of that liquid stuff with dead germs in it, huh? Which they claim it prevents diseases?

  18. And, hey man! You should be peoud of this movement because it’s doing humanity a favor! POPULATION REDUCTION!

  19. Every day I’m getting more convinced Munchausen By Proxy is more common among anti-vaxxers. If you don’t have a child with a medical condition, you can cater to your MBP by actively ‘preventing’ it. Refusing vaccination and/or putting kids on certain foods delivers to same fullfillment as dealing with a sick child, especially because it can generate attention, if only through the reception by fellow anti-vaxxers, who will treat you like a lost sheep coming back. This is not unlike converting to a small or fringe religion.

    Still living outside reality, harsh, unforgiving and complicated as it is (and may I say of an unsurpassed beauty), comes at a price and, like drunk driving, not just to oneself, sometimes even only at cost to others.

  20. Rift

    @Kathleen and Cyrotank

    Disease, illness, neurological disorder, you are splitting hairs and arguing semantics. They are all the same thing. Genetic Disease, genetic illness, yadda yadda yadda are all used in the literature. It’s labeling and it doesn’t matter what we call it, it’s still bad. Autism doesn’t care how we label it. The universe hates to be labeled and pigeon holed, but we humans seem to have a compulsive obsession to do JUST that.

    Don’t quibble with Phil for calling it an illness. A neurological disorder IS an illness. And yes, I have the right to say that since I have one. Illness, disease, neurological disorder, are all bad and all basically mean the same thing. Last I looked autism was considered a Mental Illness… Or is this new ‘let’s’ change the name of everything so people can say autism didn’t exist 30 years ago because we were calling it something else then’?

    *sighs*

    Arguing about what t0 label autism or not to label autism is sidetracking the main issue. Vaccines don’t cause it, and not vaccinating your kids not only put them at risk but make them (and you) a public health hazard. THAT’S what is improtant.

    (god i hate labels, and this is why)

  21. andyb

    No anti-vaxxers have dared to chip in to the comments on this post yet. Very Good.

  22. @TheChemist, Todd W.’s and IVAN3MAN’s work is going to get put together in an actual web page format as soon as I can figure out a good domain for us to use. It will be there as a resource for anyone who wants to copy and paste all the information as a pre-emptive anti-nutter reuttal. Vaccines and evolution will be the two biggeest focuses for that. If you want to help, let me know. Larian@LarianLeQuella.com and we can collaborate.

  23. Lawrence

    As a farther, I couldn’t even stomach watching more than a few minutes of the video. I cringe when I think that this will become more and more common as parents refuse to vaccinate their children. They forget that they are not only putting their own kids at risk, but other kids that are too young to be vaccinated themselves.

  24. @quasar: You do realize that nobody is listening to you any more, right? You post the same two line response (within a few words or so) to every anti-vaxx article that Phil puts up. Why don’t you just go over to A0A with the rest of the nutters who will nod enthusiastically along with your conspiracy theory.

  25. CryoTank

    @Rift

    I wasn’t quibbling with Phil. And I actually don’t care either what you call something. It is or it isn’t in my view, no matter the name. Incidentally, I too have a neurological disorder/illness/problem whatever and don’t give a damn how it’s labelled. But it’s totally irrelevant if you or I have one of these anyway.

    My point was kind of, that McCarthy apparently views Autism as something you can treat like a cold.

    I’m sorry if that was unclear, my “illness” is a bitch.

  26. mike

    babies are dieing and becoming physically crippled from vaccines as well, so i think the parents should be allowed to weigh the risks of both sides of this argument themselves ….

  27. mike, really? You have evidence that babies are dying because they’ve had vaccines? Let’s see it.

  28. Calling it an illness or a disease leads people to think that there is a “cure”. Genrescue and the like push horrible therapies in the name of a “cure” Chelation, hypobaric chambers etc.etc. This is part of their anti-vax campaign. You might want to call it splitting hairs-so be it. My kids don’t have a disease-they have autism.

  29. CryoTank

    mike, the parents don’t get to hear both sides of this argument. They hear what is said on Oprah and Larry King etc. The “other” side isn’t given equal time, they are rather shouted down hysterically by McCarthy. Else lots of parents would perhaps have already seen through the antivax misinformation campaign by now.

  30. mike

    phil plait, there’s a very real chance that the disease can be contracted from the vaccine. a vaccine is an injection of the disease itself… i even worked with a guy a few years ago who had lost his leg from a polo vaccine. im not on either side because its not a decision i’ve had to make yet, but i do think that its right to be left up to the parents because there is a risk either way and that shouldn’t be a choice that is taken away from them

  31. from reading @mike-can you all understand why I am “splitting hairs” and saying it is NOT a disease?!!

  32. Shannon

    When I got the initial whooping cough vaccination, I suffered a severe reaction. I went into convulsions and seized on and off for hours, between which I screamed non stop. I was in the hospital for days. I almost died–about as bad a reaction to a vaccine you can get.

    And I’m not autistic. If anything, I’ve performed above average throughout my schooling. I’m perfectly normal, and perfectly healthy–except for my having suffered whooping cough a few months ago.

    In fact, I work with autistic children at a special school here in NJ, and when I caught whooping cough, the board made a presentation to the parents. Those parents whose children I visited at home were so appalled at my plight that several of them ran out and got their previously unvaccinated children vaccinated.

    Any sane person who has seen what these diseases actually do for themselves doesn’t even have to think twice about getting the vaccination. And people who see the damage these diseases do and still refuse to vaccinate have some severe problems.

    My step mother grew up in the Phillipines, where she contracted polio. She can’t walk without leg braces. She’ll never run, ever. She has to manually bend her right leg to sit down. That and so much more is preventable, and should never happen to anyone ever again.

  33. Alexander Justice

    If you Google “vaccinate t-shirt” you’ll get a pile of anti-vax propaganda, and one t-shirt that looks like it represents a sane point of view. If that is how pop culture is weighting this debate, no wonder the advantage is going to the anti-vaxers. I’d like a t-shirt or bumper sticker that sums it up the way Phil ended his post here – Vaccinate. It would start the conversation.

  34. @ The Chemist

    > The authors’ conclusion is that anti-vaccination communications
    > play on a much richer field of considerations in parents’ heads
    > than the official communications.

    I just wrote about this on my blog (http://padraic2112.wordpress.com/2009/04/24/a-note-about-choice-an-observation-about-fear-and-parental-decisions/). It’s a prospect theory problem, which is why all the utility theory arguments just aren’t convincing.

    The anti-vaccination communications draw on a simple fear: the fear that by action, you will harm your child. Lots of people are drawn in enough by that fear that they are willing to postpone a decision. Hammering away at people by telling them that it is not a *reasonable* fear isn’t working.

  35. moose

    @mike, the risk of infection only stems from the “weakened” vaccinations that contain living bacteria. there is no chance of infection from “dead” vaccinations that contain dead bacteria in them

  36. zar

    That footage of the baby suffering whooping cough was heartbreaking.

    Good on the Aussies for running this segment. I hope we start seeing something like this in the U.S., or else hospitals are going to have to stock up on iron lungs again.

  37. CryoTank

    kathleen, that’s a very good point indeed.
    Calling it a sickness or disease does give support to all sorts of Quacks, woo-healers and their obscure treatments.

  38. I especially love the whooping cough that went away in two weeks and was not diagnosed or treated by any medical professionals.

    No worse than an ordinary cough? Probably because it was an ordinary cough, you deluded bint.

  39. As the father of a 10 month old girl, the rage and anger I feel after watching this piece is quite palpable. No pulling punches; these mis-guided idiot parents who dare to put the rest of our children in danger by not vaccinating their children are usually so easily deluded, one wonders what other snake oil they buy in life. Thankfully here in my province(Ontario, Canada) children who are not vaccinated are not allowed into school until they can show proof of vaccination. Bollocks to these idiots who say it’s their choice/right NOT to vaccinate their children. You don’t have any innate right, when your choice potentially endangers everyone around you!

  40. Tom

    What and where is our U.S. Surgeon General saying about this?

  41. Chris

    mike:

    i even worked with a guy a few years ago who had lost his leg from a polo vaccine.

    The plural of anecdote is not data.

    Though note, due to a small number of people who reacted to the OPV, the USA now only gives the IPV.

    Now do try to show evidence that your initial statement that “babies are dieing and becoming physically crippled from vaccines as well, ” is happening with the present pediatric vaccine schedule. Try something like using a real cite like:
    Pediatrics. 2007 Nov;120(5):e1190-202. Epub 2007 Oct 15.
    Pertussis booster vaccination in HIV-infected children receiving highly active antiretroviral therapy.
    and
    Vaccine. 2008 Apr 24;26(18):2260-9. Epub 2008 Feb 29.
    Safety and immunogenicity of a 7-valent pneumococcal conjugate vaccine (Prevenar): primary dosing series in healthy Chinese infants.

    and this one, where they are trying to prevent what happened to the baby in the news report:
    J Pediatr. 2008 Sep;153(3):327-32. Epub 2008 Apr 28.
    Poor immune responses to a birth dose of diphtheria, tetanus, and acellular pertussis vaccine.

  42. Matt

    Mike: You’re full of it. My entire extended family had no issues with any vaccine, and that’s a lot of people. I hope you end up with polio or something like it, unfortunately that’s what it takes to get through to people like you.

  43. Torbjörn Larsson, OM

    both sides of this argument

    And there you have it. The antiscience nutters know it is a belief in the same way that evolution science denialists know that they propagate a belief, we know it is a belief; because facts have only one side. And still they persist.

    The devil with Morton’s Demon, filtering out all facts that contradicts a belief, is that it filters out the very fact that it is at work.

    [I hear that Morton himself, and some very few other fundamentalists, may recover from such an inherently stable state. But they seem to retain some rudimentary form of seeing internal contradictions if not external that their beliefs couldn’t extinguish fully.

    For Morton, IIRC an YEC, I believe it was the contradictions in religious texts. For pro-disease nutters it ought to be the fact that even their ‘uncontroversial’ sicknesses kills and maims ‘despite’ that no vaccine was used. If that happens, how can you reasonably and unselfishly maintain that not taking a vaccination is a good thing? Dorey denied this, mike seems oblivious to the fact, but at least there are now “infectious” youtube clips out there.]

  44. Wayne Garces

    Here is a statistical look at the deaths caused by Jenny McCcarthy’s anti-vaccination hogwash:

    Jenny McCarthy Bodycount

    http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/Jenny_McCarthy_Body_Count/Home.html

  45. zaardvark

    Antivaxxers (or vaccine scare mongers) like to bring up mercury in flu shots right? Would they have concerns about swine flu vaccines, assuming they were available? How demented are these people?

  46. CryoTank

    And here we are again.
    There will always be someone who reacted badly to the vaccination. On the other hand, there is the overwhelming number of people who had no ill side effects.
    This will always happen! There will always be a risk.
    But: It doesn’t invalidate the entire process or reason for vaccinating our children. Overall it improves our lives.
    If someone gets ill after have been bitten by a tick, despite having received an inoculation, that’s unfortunately to be expected. These vaccines and medicines are improved continuously, but if you’re waiting for them to become 100% safe, you’re in for a long wait.

    Parents need to be aware of this too, not just the hysterical chants of “Vaccines cause Autism” or “Vaccines contain toxins” or whatever that stupid woman lets out whenever she opens her trap. The misinformation that the parents are fed will make things bad. Very bad.
    They can’t make rational decisions if they only know half of the story.

    In the meantime, the antivaxxers are patting themselves on the back. YAY! Yet another child successfully saved from autism. Oh, it died? Ah, whooping cough. Well that must have been some medicine too…

  47. Mrs. BA

    Mike – while your point about a parent’s right to decide what is best for their child has some merit, it should be considered that many parents who choose not to vaccinate are not receiving accurate information about the risks associated with vaccines. Check out The American Academy of Pediatrics for accurate information about vaccine safety.

    There’s also the question of whether the health of the general population outweighs a parent’s right not to immunize their child. A child who is not immunized against pertussis may contract the disease as an adult, with much milder symptoms, who will likely not need to see a doctor for it and never have the disease diagnosed. The problem is that this adult carrier is now a loaded gun pointed at any infant they come in contact with.

    According to the website Parents of Kids with Infectious Diseases “Babies are at the highest risk for developing complications from pertussis and dying. Ninety percent of pertussis-associated deaths have been among babies younger than six months of age.

    Parents are responsible for more than half of whooping cough cases in babies, when the source could be identified.

    Parents, caregivers and other family members should be vaccinated to help “cocoon” babies and young children when they are most vulnerable to the dangers of pertussis.”

    I think a newborn’s right not to contract a horrible and potentially deadly disease trumps a parent’s right not to immunize their child, especially when this decision is based on the type of hyperbole and misinformation being employed by the anti-vax movement.

  48. Mandie

    I think you all are really being counterproductive by calling everyone who doesn’t vaccinate a “nutter” or the like. We’re not all idiots. We’re not all crazy, conspiracy-theorists. We’re not all ignorant. We don’t all just jump on the bandwagon. We don’t all ignore research. Many of us are people who are truly concerned for the welfare of our children, just as you are for yours. Personally, I have done LOTS of research, read both sides of the issue, and am disturbed by the lack of information and research about what is put into vaccines that are put into days-old babies.

    Whether you agree with me or not, calling me names is a sure way to get me to skip past whatever else you’re saying. If you really want people to listen, maybe you should start treating them with some modicum of respect.

  49. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5201a1.htm

    From January 1, 1991, through December 31, 2001, VAERS received 128,717 case reports describing adverse events after immunization.

    Overall, 14.2% of all reports received in VAERS during 1991–2001 described serious adverse events (10) (Table 9).

    A clinical research team follows up on all deaths reported to VAERS. The majority of these deaths were ultimately classified as sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS).

    Math = over 18,000 kids “suddenly died” after vaccination according to the US Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS).

    My heart goes out to the subject of your post, but it also goes out to the parents and families of those eighteen thousand kids.

  50. CryoTank

    Mandie-
    Personally I only call Jenny McCarthy and her ilk nutters. Satisfied? ;)

  51. Paxalot

    “Anti-vaxers” (not a name they would have chosen) are unfairly painted as being anti-vaccine. It is propaganda pure and simple. Most anti-vaxers are against the heavy and early vaccine schedule i.e. MMR vaccines which tax the system with 3 diseases at the same time. Anti-vaxers want single-dose vaccines. They want doctors to follow the schedules and ages set by manufacturers. Doctors do not. Vaccines are administered to newborns that should only be given at 18 months. If you believe big-Pharma is ethically pure and free from sin, you are dreaming and that goes double for your bribed doctor. People that get vaccines are not 100% immune, that is a dangerous myth. The biggest cause of the decline in measles has been modern sanitation and personal hygiene. “In 1900 there were 13.3 deaths per 100,000 attributed to the measles but with medical advancements and cleaning habits, by 1955 the death rate dropped to 0.03 per hundred thousand, or a 97.7 percent decrease” (before the vaccine).

  52. Rift

    Kathleen, Cyrotank, I didn’t mean to imply that calling it a disease or illness lessens the severity of it. I don’t use the term of either disease or illness to mean something that is curable. I have an ‘mental illness’ that is incurable and the medical field calls it a ‘mental illness’. I have lived with it since I was 13, 32 years ago and will live with it for the rest of my life. I still say the words we use to label something don’t change what it is. Like I said we are arguing semantics. “The map is not the place, the word is not the thing”. And I am graciously trying to get out of an argument with either one of you because we are on the same side and this is really a silly thing to argue about given the severity of the harm the pro-disease nutters are causing. I am sorry if either one of you misundersand my point.

  53. DaveM

    I don’t have a dog in this fight either way, take that how you will. But it seems to me that regardless of which side is shown to be correct, the rise of the antivax movement and other movements like it is an expected consequence of a population becoming further and further removed from information sources they feel they can trust, whilst seeing formerly minor illness increase to epidemic proportions. So what would you expect? Of course the data and conclusions will be challenged. The inability of the general public to have a voice in shaping policy on things they should be rightly concerned with, such as GMO foods as an example, just creates fertile soil for this kind of backlash. Insulting and marginalizing these groups doesn’t serve the vax movement much better either. As someone who has had direct experience with certain outlying areas of ‘medicine’ that have been retarded by corrupt interests (a sad and ugly and completely verifiable story in itself), I firmly contend such skepticism not only has its place, it is an absolute necessity.

    In other words, I don’t blame the anti-vaxers even if they are shown to be completely wrong. At least they are trying. At least they are becoming active. If the scientific community would get involved in some of the political questions that intersect its area of expertise perhaps things would be different. But they rarely do. And thus we have GMO foods, fluoridation, a broken pharma system, patented genes and the detritus of Bayh Dole.
    Having better information is great and all, but if it’s not accompanied by change it’s akin to members of a peanut gallery commenting while Rome burns. The anti-vaxers may have bad information but they’re doing something. If taking a step backwards is necessary before they take 2 steps forward then the cost is worth it. That step back wouldn’t have to happen if the scientific community had the stones to get in the game.

  54. Mrs. BA

    @ Mandie – I agree with you Mandie. Namecalling doesn’t get us anywhere and I wish people would stop doing it. My mother always used to tell me “You catch more flies with honey than vinegar” and I’ve always found it to be true.

    I am a parent and I can empathize with your concerns over what is in vaccines. I am not a scientist of any sort and I don’t have the training to fully understand the chemistry of every vaccine. I do know, however, that vaccines have wiped out horrible diseases like polio and smallpox in the United States and dramatically reduced the number of cases of other childhood diseases like pertussis, diptheria and measles. And during the past decades as more vaccines have been given, the average life expectancy of Americans has continually increased, in spite of our poor eating habits and lack of exercise. If vaccines were having long-term negative effects on our health, it would be obvious by now.

    This trend tells me that vaccinations are safe. If you’ll read my previous link to the American Academy of Pediatrics page about the process for developing and monitoring vaccines, I think you’ll feel more confident about how safe they really are. If you examine the question on the data alone, I think you’ll eventually conclude that the advantages of vaccinating for outweigh the comparatively miniscule risks, both for your child and everyone they will come in contact with. Bear in mind that if the current trend continues, unvaccinated children will not be protected by herd immunity much longer.

  55. CryoTank

    Rift-
    no problem, nothing happened :) For the most part I do agree with you, but I also think that Kathleens point is very important. As long as it is called sickness or disease, someone will want to make money with fake cures, since these terms are so deeply buried in peoples minds. A neurological disorder on the other hand doesn’t sound like something you could cure by simply drinking some homeopathic remedy or herbs or whatever.

  56. James

    Paxalot, that “not 100% immune” thing is why everyone needs to get the full schedule of vaccinations, otherwise herd immunity drops and we open ourselves up to more epidemics.

    Given that the current vaccination schedule does not cause health problems, there is no reason not to get vaccinated if possible. You owe it not only to yourself, but to the people around you.

  57. Mandie
    “We don’t all just jump on the bandwagon”

    It seems you imply that that pro-vaxxers do. It seems as if your saying “don’t generalize and stop name-calling, you bunch of band-wagon-jumpers”.

    I know vaccines come with a risk. However, not vaccinating comes with a risk too. Not vaccinating is not the same as not making a choice. Also, it puts others at risk. That is not made up Jenny McCarthy even acknowledges it and conviently shifts the blame to pharmaceutical companies.
    It is that twisted logic that is one of the things that pulls the rug under anti-vaccination, or vaccination doubters, to include the milder people on that side of the fence.

    There is that too, it is so much easier to doubt. If you doubt big pharma and the government, you can go about that for a long time because you can make short statements that take a long time to completely disprove. And when disproven, you don’t look as foolish as someone who believes and is proven wrong. It is far riskier to believe the pro-vax because even if they are proven wrong on something unrelated or minor, you will not hear the end of it. Doubt, however, is a perpetuum mobile, it can be kept going forever,

  58. Mandie

    Mrs. BA – Thanks for the link. I’ve read that before (as I’m sure have all parents who choose not to vaccinate), and unfortunately, it does very little to allay my fears. I’ve seen some of the recalls on “FDA-Approved” medications, seen the results. I wouldn’t trust that as far as I can throw it.

    What I did find, however, buried amongst other hate-spewing “information” from pro-vaxers was this link: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/6mishome.htm which was actually incredibly informative. My kids are 4 and 1.5 now, and probably past the point where vaccines are really necessary for their own personal health, but I’m considering talking to their pediatrician about starting a schedule for them. I always intended to delay only but quite frankly, there’s been a lot more information in the past four years that discouraged me than there has been which encouraged me.

    Maybe if you all (not you SPECIFICALLY) would stop screaming “IDIOT” and start giving good information, more people would listen, and earlier.

  59. Mandie

    Erwin, actually what I was saying was that commenters seem to imply that anti-vaxxers are just jumping on a bandwagon, when that is not universally true.

  60. Bryan

    Yet something else to become a partisan issue in the very near future. While vaccines seem to have more of a success rate than a failure rate, we cannot just assume that they’re safe otherwise. The problem I have with people who scream “inject yourselves or you’ll kill us all!” is that they are not supporting the investigation into the negative effects of these vaccines. Constantly there are drugs yanked off the market and lawsuits filed because of adverse side-effects that the drug manufacturers either didn’t know about or pretended not to know about. It’s ludicrous to assume that vaccines are 100% safe. Yes, it’s real nice that we have a vaccine that can “probably” prevent you from getting the flu, but can you go to sleep at night, certain of what you have just injected your child with? Is there truly no doubt in your mind? I apologize for seeming dumbstruck, but that’s a faith I just can’t fathom.

  61. Rift-we’re good. It is just when I read things like-“when you inject the disease you get the disease”…well, it wouldn’t surprise me if some people thought that “autism cooties” were somehow mixed in with the MMR and injected..I know it sounds ridiculous..That is why I differentiate between disease and disorder..

  62. Rift

    Cryotank-

    Okay, i do see your and Kathleen’s point now (finally, sometimes I’m slow on the uptake). I think critically and I don’t think the way the snake oil salesmen and those that fall for them do. I over-reacted to Kathleen’s pointing out to Phil autism is not a disease (or illness or whatever you want to call it) for exactly the reasons (reverse anyway) that she pointed it out. Using a euphemism for it isn’t going to change the dreadful (an incurable) disorder it is, which is what you, Kathleen, and I are all saying…

    Now on to debunk, or watch the debunkers, play with deniers like Paxalot….

    Paxalot, if improvement of hygiene is the sole reason the childhood diseases are nearly non-existent now, why the huge drop in deaths after the improved vaccines were introduced in the ’60s? Public hygiene was pretty good then…

  63. @Mandie: Most of the anti-vaxers here ARE bandwagon jumpers. If you read the posts from those who think vaccines are a problem, they are parroting the usual (incorrect) talking points from Gen Rescue, AoA, and the like. Yes, it is unfair to pigeonhole the whole group, but 99% of the time, I’m sorry to say, it’s the truth.

  64. Rift

    Kathleen, I’m glad we’re good. I don’t have kids with autism so I’m not exposed to the rubbish and it doesn’t have the same emotional effect that it would with you. I see your point now.

  65. my eyes are still wet over that vid. Vaccines have been proven effective time and time again only to have anti-science fear mongers (and I won’t apologize for the characterization) scare parents out of protecting not only their children but their friends and neighbor’s kids as well. The media needs to stop giving a soapbox to the celebrity mouthpieces like McCarthy and Carrey and talk to the scientists who actually understand how they work and why.

  66. @paxalot-anti-vaxers is not a name they would have chosen-I agree, being the anti-anything is nagative. However, When Jenny McCarthy-the mouth peice of genrescue says

    “I do believe sadly, it’s going to take some diseases coming back to realize that we need to change and develop vaccines that are safe”

    I ask you this-At what cost. Who has to pay the price for those diseases coming back? My Dr. has a medical degree. He doesn’t work for big pharma, nor does our neurologist. They never have. They are educated in the field of medicine-they keep up on the latest advances. They believe in vaccines.I trust my doctors.

  67. zar

    Paxalot (please read this): A drop in measels rates between 1900 and 1950 may well have had something to do with hygiene (I’m not disputing that good hygiene has health benefits—no one would), but how about the incredible drop in infection rates after that? Measels rates in the US plummeted from around 500,000 to next to nothing between 1960 and 1970. Hygiene did not improve significantly in that decade, so what happened? The measels vaccine is what happened. If you’ll click on my name, you’ll see a chart from the CDC that shows a very steep drop immediately after the vaccine was introduced.

    How about polio? Polio rates also plummeted between 1952 (about 21,000 cases in the US) and 1965 (about 60 cases in the US). Consider that for a moment; this scourge that ended and ruined so many lives, that mangled children, that forced hospitals to have enormous iron lung wards to handle its victims just evaporated in little over a decade. Was there some amazing improvement in hygiene between 1952 and 1965? I’m pretty sure people were very hygienic in the 1950s.

    Rubella. In the late 60s, the US had between 25 and 30 reported cases of rubella for every 100,000 people. By 1974, the rate was about 5 per 100,000 people. What happened? The rubella vaccine was introduced in 1969.

    And rubella, I found your suggestion that doctors were bribed to put poisonous substances in children ignorant and disgusting. Pediatricians go into the profession because they love children and want to help them. My father has been a physician for decades and I spent last year surrounded by Yale med students. I can assure you they’re not part of some dark conspiracy. They’re passionate about human health and strongly dedicated to the public good. They are not corporate puppets; they’re very aware of the dangers of marketing and greed and quite worried about it.

    Doctors are pro-vaccine because they’ve seen people die of preventable diseases. Any death is awful to watch, but a death that could have easily been avoided is obscene. Having to tell a hopeful young mother and father that their child has died of whooping cough or been become permanently deaf from measels is horrible; I couldn’t imagine how painful it would be. If doctors believed that vaccines were dangerous, they wouldn’t vaccinate their own kids. They wouldn’t get themselves vaccinated. But they do.

  68. Bunny

    I watched this on TV last night. All of my children are vaccinated, and I am 100% for vaccinations.

    Unfortunately the comments here by the pseudo scientists that comment regularly in this blog has made me question that.

    It is obvious that the anti vaccination people hold a belief, but it is just as obvious to an intelligent observer that the people on this blog hold an opposing belief that looks almost as ridiculous as the belief of the anti vaccination people. Blind belief in science, is just as ridiculous as blind belief in natural remedies, or blind belief in an invisible omnipotent friend.

    Many of you are happy to throw the word “Anecdotal” around. Strange that every theory is supported to start with by nothing more than a belief and anecdotal evidence. It is also quite surprising just how many medical breakthroughs I have seen delayed because researchers and doctors refused to test overwhelming anecdotal evidence because it clashed with their own theories (beliefs) on the subject. It is also interesting just how often the medical profession gets it completely wrong. The most interesting recent example is the number of deaths and illnesses that the medical community caused because of their 30 year “BELIEF” that asthma medication harmed fetuses. So all pregnant women were refused all asthma medication for 30 years, causing death, suffering, and lower birth weights. Al of this was done on what would be called a superstition if it were any other group but doctors. This superstition was based on no facts, no studies. No one even attempted a study.

    To sum up, even though the medical community is almost 100% correct on this point, get your own house in order before belittling other groups, and labeling them with offensive insults (a standard tactic for stupid people who BELIEVE that they are more intelligent than others).

  69. Mrs. BA

    @Mike – if your only objection to vaccines is that there’s a chance they can give you the disease, you’ll have to stop objecting at least to the ones that use dead viruses, like these:

    Non-live Vaccines:
    Hep B
    Diphtheria, Tetanus, Pertussis
    Haemophilus influenza type b
    Inactivated Polio
    Influenza virus (injected)
    Hepatitis A
    Pneumococcal
    Meningococcal
    Human Papilloma Virus (HPV, Gardasil)

    Unless you know of a way that a dead virus can cause infection, you’ll have to agree that these vaccines can’t give you the disease they intend to prevent.

  70. @bunny-please go and look at the generation rescue site.

  71. Mrs. BA

    Slight correction – several of the vaccines on the Non-live list that I posted are bacterial, not viral, but the same arguments apply.

  72. Bunny

    @kathleen

    What would that prove? Would that make doctors and scientists more correct? Would that make all the fad superstitions that medical professions have followed for centuries disappear?

    I agree that the anecdotal evidence proves that vaccines work. Simply, when vaccination rates have been higher, the target diseases have had lower rates of infection. Solid anecdotal evidence (intended irony).

    Though the absolute stance of the pseudo scientists on this forum is ridiculous. Having watched the entire show last night on TV, I even saw evidence that the doctors asking for higher rates of immunization, were asking for it for the sake of the children who could not be immunized. I have seen calls here for governments to make immunization a legal necessity with absolutely no exceptions. So are we to threaten the lives of children with no immune system because pseudo scientists here say it must be 100% immunization? I now expect a lot of back peddling from these self imagined intelligent people who made absolute statements earlier in this thread. Sometimes, the lack of immunization doesn’t stem from ignorance or a belief that “big pharma” is eating our babies.

  73. Mark Hansen

    Clearly, bunny, you will want to also repost your missive directed at antivaxxers as well. After all, they’re hardly lily-white when it comes to belittling people.

  74. @bunny-perhaps then you would understand the absolute frustration that many people have. What would it prove you ask? Well, you just made some very broad based statements-I am giving you information to perhaps better understand. I am citing my sources. I am backing up what I say.

  75. Bunny

    @kathleen

    Your sources do not matter to me at all. The first lesson in statistics in Tertiary education in my part of the world is “The first question is what do you want to prove. The second question is what formula do you chose to show it.”. Simply put, you can prove any pre conceived idea using the wide range of mathematical tools statistics uses. The common phrase is “There are lies, damn lies and statistics”. It isn’t surprising how often pseudo scientists use statistics while insisting that anecdotal evidence is not to be trusted. I prefer to “trust my own eyes”, even if you believe it is inferior to cherry picked mathematical formula.

    So why do you believe that links to sites claiming what you believe are any better than links by an anti vaccination believer that have anecdotal evidence?

    Beyond that, I assume that your reading comprehension is lacking because I have stated many times that I myself “believe” in vaccinations, and that my own children are fully vaccinated. I only take issue at pseudo scientists trying to pass of their beliefs as facts, while belittling others and making absolute statements.

  76. My reading comprehension is just fine thank you very much-I was backing up what I said using the arguments of the very people I am against(genrescue) Since you made such a broad based statement-I believed that I should back up my claim-site my source..I don’t know, I just thought that showing a “not pro all vaccines site” might give you a better understanding of the frustrations of some of us. So please, by all means “trust your own eyes”-look at what you want. At least I was pleasant.

  77. Rift

    Bunny your lack of knowledge of statistics is astounding. And I have a degree in it. Numbers don’t lie, people do. You’re just another rude troll making no sense. Why are people so rude on this blog, you don’t find this on the Bad Astronomy-Universe Today forum…

    Oh wait, that’s because we have you outnumbered there, no talking about politics and religion (which the pro-disease nutters come very close to being) and a ton of moderators to kick rude posters who are too angry/rude/stupid to read the posting rules, out.

    Whatever your point is (and i’m unsure what it is) being rude isn’t helping your ’cause’ any.

  78. Rift

    @Bryan

    I sleep lovely at night. How can YOU sleep knowing your kids are more susceptible to disease? No one here is saying vaccines are 100% safe. Nothing is 100% safe. I could die going to 7-11 to pick up a gallon of milk, in fact the odds of that are far more likely then me dying from the flu vaccine.

    But i take the flu vaccine every year because I’m in the ‘high risk’ population that could die from the flu and I sleep more sound after taking the flu vaccine. Sure it’s a hit and miss procedure, and the flu strain that erupts might not be the one that I got vaccinated for(which can’t be helped, making vaccines, millions of doses takes a while), but the risks are far more likely I will die from the flu then i will die from the vaccine, or worse, from a strain of flu there was a vaccine was and i didn’t take it. Seriously, how can YOU sleep at night?

    There’s no faith involved. The evidence is overwhelming. Vaccines work. This isn’t a belief of mine this is my decision based on the evidence and statistics.

    ‘Big pharms’ would make MORE money with flu relief medications if flu ran rampant then from vaccinations, that argument falls flat on its face.

  79. Sean

    I agree that people who are choosing not to vaccinate their children are misinformed and so used to being sceptical of things as a matter of course that they make choices that endanger their children and the lives of other children. Diseases that were all-but-wiped-out are making a comeback and are killing again.

    That said, how can anyone take this post seriously. Babies are dying. In italics no less. Why not a triple exclamation mark. Babies are dying!!! Or, better yet, “these Austrailians are going to KILL YOUR BABY!!!” It is a struggle to make it through the second paragraph to find the actual story here.

    As a journalist, for a science publication, why not stick to the science? Scrub the emotional triggers and just tell the story. Your point will be better served.

  80. Hedgehog

    The anti-vaxers are pretty much the same as the anti-evolutionists. No amount of information, no stack of facts (no matter how high) is going to have any affect whatsoever on their ideology. Pity them, because there’s not really much you can do for them until they lose someone; often not even then.

    It’s amazing how soon we forgot the scourges of smallpox and polio, gone now due entirely to childhood vaccinations.

  81. Daniel J. Andrews

    Whoa Bunny!! When it comes to statistics you obviously don’t have a clue what you are talking about! Just because stats are a mystery to you does not mean they are to everyone. Are you a troll, or do you make a habit of talking about things you know nothing about?

    Stick to what you know, and if you don’t know it, don’t make things up because it discredits anything else you might say, even if you do know what you are talking about in those areas.

  82. Amanda

    Last year my husband and I attended a fund raiser event headed by a well-known club that his boss was the president of. I don’t know exactly how it happened, but at some point the bosses wife began raking me over the coals about how I was making the “wrong” choice and I was “killing” my children by vaccinating. This is the same woman who berated me for feeding my baby “poison” aka baby formula…never mind that it was bottled breast milk because I was uncomfortable nursing in as public of a place as we were in. This woman went on and on in great detail about how sickening vaccines were and how they were made and because I did happen to be nursing my baby on this occasion there was no where for me to run until he was done nursing. I saw my kids’ doctor making his rounds and visiting, and tried to grab his attention so he could come back me up (and he would have) but sadly the very moment he turned my direction some other people decided to stand in the way to talk. For 20 minutes I sat there feeding my baby listening to this woman tell me in her own words how bad of a mother she felt that I was for choosing to vaccinate. The next day my husband came home from work with 48 pages of anti-vaxxing filth for me to read…it went in the trash.
    I vax my kids because I want them and everyone around them to be safe. Why should my children be placed in harms way because other parents refuse to vaccinate their children? In my opinion public schools should REQUIRE vaccinations no exceptions. If a parent wants to CHOOSE not to protect their child then that parent should also be responsible for keeping their unvaccinated child away from those whose parents are trying everything they can to protect their kids.

    Great article by the way.

  83. EvilBob

    They have a poll on compulsory vaccination on their main page.
    I dislike the idea of compulsory medication, but I really think this needs to be done. Maybe we can crash this poll? It’s currently 63% No.

  84. @Sean

    Are you suggesting that infant mortality has NOT been affected? I think Phil can be excused for the emphasis on the fact that babies are dying, since the science isn’t getting through to the anti-vaxxers then pointing out the faces of the victims of their campaign is the next logical step.

  85. Rift

    I agree Nathan, we have tried reason and showing scientific evidence, now it’s time to do the same propaganda they are doing… Fight fire with fire…

  86. shawmutt

    Jeez…I have a five month old and a 19 month old (both fully vaccinated). I made it through about a minute of the video.

    It’s up to all of the rational folks to do everything they can to counter the misinformation and outright lies being spread by the anti-vax crowd. What I do:

    1. Learn the arguments from the anti-vax side. This involves lurking around anti-vax sites, swallowing the bile and trying not to lose too many IQ points from reading vapid crap. They fall along a few basic arguments, and most tend to follow trends. “Vaccines cause autism” is falling by the wayside, the most influential folks don’t use that argument anymore. Now it’s all about the toxins in vaccines. Learn the toxins they claim are in them, learn what the real chemicals are, and learn how to counter this argument in dumbed down language—e.g. An explanation of what is used in vaccines is not anti-freeze someone uses in their car!

    2. Use Google news alerts, or something similar, to scour websites for terms like “vaccination”, “CAM”, and any similar key words. You’ll get articles and blogs. Try to comment (politely and rationally!) and get the correct information out there. I have to emphasize, politely and rationally. Being rude and resorting to ad homs will just get your comments deleted. I’ve been doing this for a couple months now, I hope to see some of you out there.

  87. @Mandie, you wrote that you are “am disturbed by the lack of information and research about what is put into vaccines that are put into days-old babies.” I don’t blame you. I would be, too. But the point is that no one is vaccinating days-old babies. That baby died of whooping cough because she was too young to be vaccinated. And by repeating such ridiculous accusations, you’re not making the rest of your argument sound very well-reasoned.

    I have three boys who were fully-vaccinated starting at six months of age. And I was very glad they were when we had a whooping cough epidemic in our school district a couple years ago. The parents I shared my alarm with had never even heard of whooping cough. These are your well-informed anti-vaxxers?

    Vaccinating children against preventable disease is the same thing as baby-proofing the house, using a car seat or seat belt, and hiring a babysitter. It’s the parents’ job to keep their children safe.

  88. @shawmutt

    lots of good ideas here. Here’s what we found whilst lurking on the Australian Vaccination Network Yahoo group after the show aired last night.

    Meryl Dorey described the show as “The most horrible, one-sided report I have ever seen” and “it was even worse than I’d feared”. She ended her rant with “I despair about the cover up, the children who will be injured by these shots and the way in which our organisation and the families who have been hurt by vaccines have been portrayed”.

    Also, other posters commented (referring to Meryl Dorey); “One of the things that got to me was the deeply sincere look on the face of that feral woman when she was interviewing you”,

    I know that the anti-vaxers will have flooded Channel 7 with abuse and criticism. I am waiting to hear about the fall-out. PLEASE write to Channel 7 and show your support http://au.tv.yahoo.com/sunday-night/contact plus, vote on the poll http://au.tv.yahoo.com/sunday-night/

    These people do not deserve air-time in my opinion, but if they campaign hard enough, the station may cave in and give them the chance for rebuttal. This only serves the confuse and frighten parents who are seeking genuine information about the safety of vaccines.

    Here is an example of how Meryl Dorey spreads panic by planting seeds of misinformation; (this thread is from 2005, but as you read further you can see how parents are asking for evidence and get no response).

    http://www2b.abc.net.au/4corners/forum/archives/archive104/newposts/60/topic60331.shtm

    Thanks to everyone who has been linking to my blog, it is now the third hit when you type her name into Google. And thank you Phil for blogging this – much appreciated.

    Maggie (aka Dr Rachie)

  89. Courtney Franklin

    But notice something? The report was PRO Vaccination, I have only seen two reports about vaccination atm and they were both pro Vaccination, with a typical retard opposing Vaccination (oh I went there)

  90. Aussie Mum

    I’m an Aussie (with 2 fully vaccinated teenage children) and I watched this on tellie too and was very distressed by it. I just wanted to make a comment that our government has been running a Maternity Immunisation Allowance for the past 5 or 6yrs now I think. It’s run through Centrelink (benefits agency) where when you produce a completed vaccination schedule you receive two bonus payments from the govt. I think this is a great idea, vaccinations are free over here anyway but for poorer families (who are sometimes at greater risk) the incentive can help in other ways. I guess the Anti-vaxxer’s may call this bribery, but if it helps save children’s lives then it’s clear that the Aust govt has taken at least one step in the right direction.

  91. James

    You guys are a bunch of idiots. Myself and every child in family was never vaccinated and we are some of the healthiest people I know. In fact, I know many families that have chosen not to vaccinate their children and they are on average some of the healthiest families I know.
    What do you think the motivation behind those who are opposed to vaccines is? We are consciously aware of our health and passing it from generation to generation is more effective than getting shots from a Dr.

  92. Autumn

    Mandie, in the interest of fairness I will not make the assertion that your claim to have not been informed of the risks associated with vaccines is a lie. However, every time that I have undergone, or have allowed one of my children to undergo, any medical procedure, I have been given a detailed consent form and a lengthy explanation of possible side effects and dangers. It suprises me that one as concerned with research as yourself managed to overlook these attempts to present you with the possible dangers of vaccines. Heck, even prescription drugs come with a detailed list of contraindications, side-effects, and exact lists of ingredients, both active and inactive.

  93. Dan I.

    @ James

    Good for you, but you are presenting an anecdote and that’s all.

    No one is saying that without vaccines you WILL get polio or measles. What we’re saying is that without vaccines your chances of getting such a disease WILL increase and many more people WILL get them than currently do.

    If you’re going to argue, at least make a reasonable argument.

  94. Autumn

    @James,
    You are “consciously aware of” your health? Cool. Can you feel the antibodies inside of you? Can you detect when a foreign protein is not recognized by your immune system? Does it, like, itch or something?

  95. @Aussie Mum

    You are correct about the Maternity Immunisation Allowance. It was introduced in 1995 as a direct response to falling immunisation levels in Australia. Both parents and GPs are given financial incentives to complete the entire immunisation schedule. Naturally the antivaxers do call it bribery and a big pharma conspiracy etc etc. However, what they don’t tell you is THEY ALSO GET IT if they identify as conscientious objectors. See how to do this here:

    http://scepticsbook.com/2009/03/01/how-to-get-the-maternity-immunisation-allowance-without-getting-your-kids-vaccinated/

  96. noophy

    @ James.
    Love the anecdotal point you have there! You probably need a definition, so here’s one from the online dictionary:
    n·ec·dot·al
    adj.
    1. also an·ec·dot·ic (-dtk) or an·ec·dot·i·cal (–kl) Of, characterized by, or full of anecdotes.
    2. Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis: “There are anecdotal reports of children poisoned by hot dogs roasted over a fire of the [oleander] stems” C. Claiborne Ray.

  97. Aussie Mum

    @ Dr Rachie

    Thanks for posting the link. I thought the only way you could get the allowance without having your kids fully vaccinated was if there was a medically proven reason for witholding vaccines, but clearly not. I never really looked right into it as this came about a few years after my kids were born, so we never had to apply for it. I think it should only be handed out to fully vaccinated kids, I think it’s almost deceitful for anti-vaxxer’s to apply for and receive this money.

  98. The following is a good example of an pro-disease misrepresentation of facts to instil fear. Bunny mentions a doctor calling for higher rates of immunisation because some children can not be immunised and then Bunny has twisted that to mean that doctors are calling for compulsory immunisation for all including kids with immune problems. Blatant scaremongering and misrepresentation of the actual position. I think you would call that a lie.

    @Bunny said “I even saw evidence that the doctors asking for higher rates of immunization, were asking for it for the sake of the children who could not be immunized. I have seen calls here for governments to make immunization a legal necessity with absolutely no exceptions. So are we to threaten the lives of children with no immune system because pseudo scientists here say it must be 100% immunization?”

    BTW, earlier it was mentioned that name calling was counter productive but anyone who claims to have carefully studied both “sides” and still takes the pro-disease position is being wilfully ignorant.

  99. @ Bunny

    > Simply put, you can prove any pre conceived idea using the
    > wide range of mathematical tools statistics uses. The common
    > phrase is “There are lies, damn lies and statistics”.

    If there is no greater untruth, it’s that common phrase. Statistics can be implemented badly. People can throw up confidence intervals that are laughably wrong (this is something that any competent statistician can see even if they don’t practice the particular science in the study with bad statistical analysis). It’s true that to a mathematical layman, you can dress up a bunch of baloney and make it sound good.

    Any real statistician will very quickly dress and skin you alive (metaphorically speaking). In fact, it’s common practice in at least three scientific fields with which I personally am familiar to *not* do your own statistics; preliminary runs might be done by the scientist in question, but it’s pretty common to have a specialist on a research team whose job it is to just run the numbers.

  100. henry

    There is an idea that vaccines can be harmful to your children. This idea must be honestly discussed. This is similar to the fluoridation concerns that some people have. Just calling them kooks is not helpful. These people don’t trust the medical communities. Why? What is the risk of caused by vaccination versus the risk of not being vaccinated? The video tells one side of the story: a baby is dead. Is there an increase the rate of autism for the vaccinated population over the non-vaccinated population? Are there other issues that have not been presented? All issues must be openly discussed.

    The discussion can be used as a blueprint for other health concerns: genetically modified food, irradiated food, hormones injected into cows, and many others.

  101. shawmutt

    James,

    Here are some more stories from folks who didn’t get vaccinated and didn’t fair so well–http://www.whatstheharm.net/vaccinedenial.html

    Do me a favor–the next time you are out amongst a crowd, pick a person at random and ask if they’ve been vaccinated. If they have, thank them for keeping you and your family safe from horrible infections.

  102. Freedom Geek

    I felt like strangling that natural remedies women.

  103. Rich

    Whew, the anti-vaxx posts always bring out the comprehensionally and factually challenged… and/or the dishonest. Particularly the “I got no dog in this fight… but let me tell you why that dog there is the better dog…” folks. Word to the wise: introducing yourself as without concern for a topic or as being neutral/undecided is insultingly transparent when you proceed to a) comment on a topic for which you “have no concern” and b) go on to show a decided preference for one side of said argument. Further compounding dishonesty with ignorance by stating “I’ve studied both sides of this argument and….” …and I’m just gonna to trot out various tired and debunked offerings from the side I really support while I pretend to be neutral – well that just piles additional insult on top of the big stack of “I think you are stupid.” you already heaped on anyone capable following one of Phil’s many links to plentiful data on the subject.

    If you have recently used any of the described tactics you might want to re-think your internet debating style; most skeptics are quite familiar with such tactics after years of repeatedly encountering and dismantling them.

    This argument is sorely lacking a relative risk comparison. It’s late and I’m tired… and I’m lazy, so I’m not going to search the actual numbers but I think Phil has posted or linked the data of which I’m thinking. The anti-vaxx crowd needs to get a grip on relative risk and start any argument there. I believe that they avoid doing so because at the end of the day even the numbers >they claim< for vaccination risks don't stack favorably in a relative risk comparison. For example: if the risk of infection for disease "A" is 1 in 1000 in an unvaccinated population but less than 1 in 100,000 w/ a highly vaccinated population and the death or disability rate is high (like w/ polio) among those who get the disease, but the vaccine itself carries a risk of significant illness or physical harm then the benefit of the vaccine is relative to its risk compared to the risk of NOT being vaccinated. In my example the vaccine would break even at a "serious side-effect" rate of 100 people of every 100,000 people who contract it – 1 in 1000. Further, any side-effects would have to be compared to the known effects of the disease – Do fewer people die? Are the injuries or disabilties more or less severe for those affected adversely by the vaccine compared to those who contract the disease? Etc.

    Now my example is made up. And I'm sure I've screwed up something in there… it's 1am !bleh! But, I'd humbly suggest anti-vaxxers start your arguments there. Give your best (worst case even) numbers for vaccine side-effects then compare it to known infection rates and results for non- or low-vaccinated populations. My bet is even your worse case numbers don't stack up.

  104. @Henry

    the autism/vaccine risk has been thoroughly discredited, as has the flouridation paranoia by science. If there are 2 sides here then it is reality and fantasy, the anti-vaxxers rely on fantasy and that dead child is the reality.

  105. JM

    What does this have to do with Astronomy? This Blog used to be interesting. Now it’s just a pulpit for your rants and pontificating. Happy to unsubscribe.

  106. On not so unrelated note: Most recent xkcd comic (click my nick) is about swine flu and has some antivax-related “punchline”.

  107. The Ill Tempered Klavier

    @henry:

    All the concerns in your post have been/ are being honestly discussed around here and other places.

    All these things have been and continue to be studied. A number of studies have been directly cited in the threads on these topics and links have often been provided to sites where they have been summarized and/or analyzed in detail.

    When people who have been informed of the data produce a reply of the “My mind’s made up: Don’t confuse me with facts.” sort, the others are justified in calling them kooks.

    To quickly answer the specific questions:

    “What is the risk of (complications?) caused by vaccination versus the risk of not being vaccinated?”

    A few people do have adverse reactions to some vaccines and not all those vaccinated develop the immunity the vaccine is intended to confer. People who are not vaccinated against a disease are much more likely to catch it and experience adverse effects.

    While the exact risks vary from disease to disease, in general, the risks of bad effects from a vaccination are minute compared to the risk of serious or fatal effects of the disease it prevents.

    “Is there an increase (in) the rate of autism for the vaccinated population over the non-vaccinated population?”

    No, there is not.

    “Are there other issues that have not been presented?”

    I don’t think any are being dodged. Anyone who thinks of a new point can bring it up for discussion.

    “genetically modified food, irradiated food, hormones injected into cows,” etc.

    In general, its better and/or stays wholesome longer.

  108. aptain swoop

    JM

    It’s a personal Blog, if there are posts on it you don’t like then don’t read that post.

    Sorry, I forgot, you have ‘unsubscribed’ so you can’t read this.

  109. marc

    Nice use of labels, calling them nutters assumes that each and everyone of those that refuses vaccines is just retarded and allows you to disregard their views. I will refuse vaccines for my children, based upon my understanding of the world. Those that are in the place of authority in this country and around the world do not have your best interests in mind. I see you as naive for your willing embrace of the authoritative view. But in truth I understand you are just scared, because you believe in disease. One day this world will wake up to find that we created all these diseases. What you think about comes about. But you probably aren’t ready to take responsibility for your life yet… so stay asleep and accept others conclusions. So much easier than thinking for yourself. Trusting science as infallible is INSANE. Scientist constantly prove things to be true only to have them disproven five years later, where does all this faith in science come from anyway??

  110. Mark Hansen

    JM, why is it that people like you happily post “I thought this was an astronomy blog” on every thread not devoted to astronomy and yet can’t find the time to post on an astronomy thread?

  111. I mentioned this on a friend’s Facebook wall because he works with autistic and other children, and I had no idea how many anivaxxers would be joining in the same thread. Some even tried to split the difference by saying they were researching ingredients and making sure their children’s vaccinations were within standard proportions, etc. I really didn’t know how widespread the thinking has become.

    I posted again, saying that while I may well have a variation on Asperger’s, I’m glad I got all my shots. Frankly, I often question the fitness of non-autistic and otherwise supposedly “normal” people when I consider the things they’ll believe and internalize.

  112. Matt

    (It may sound like I’m an anti-vax nutter in the beginning of this post, I assure you I am not). I really enjoy reading the “it needs to be looked into” posts because it’s clear those people have no idea what they are talking about. The possible side-effects ARE looked into, throughly.

    [Personal anecdote] When I got my first whooping cough shot and I had a negative reaction to it, the doctor told my mom not to give me the second one – you know why? BECAUSE THERE WAS/IS TONS OF RESEARCH ON IT, AND THEY KNOW WHAT TO DO GIVEN CERTAIN REACTIONS BECAUSE OF ALL OF THIS GOOD SOUND SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH. Had their not been the research, the doctor would have not suggested that I don’t get the next shot, and I may not be as well off today as I am. It is because of good sound scientific research that this decision was made with me.[/personal anecdote].

    The bottom line is that none of the research shows even correlation (let alone causation) between vaccines and autism. NONE! The suggestion of virtually every single pediatrician to vaccinate children is made on sound scientific grounds with a great deal of research into both the benefits and the harms associated with it.

    My only proposed solution to this is the same as with the evolution-creationtard debate. Education. Every high school in the entire world should teach a mandatory course on critical thinking, including at the very least a section on why science (the scientific method) works. Sadly, unlike the evolution-creation debate, time is a critical factor.

  113. CryoTank

    JM’s post reads like one of these very short and very “helpful” reviews at Amazon:
    “I thought this book was supposed to be good. What a disappointment. Don’t buy, it’s a waste of money.”

    I just wanted to say something about name calling.
    Compared to niceties like Doctors being pawns of Big Pharma, bribed conspirers and child poisoners because they promote vaccination, calling the Anti-Vax-Crowd Nutters is just mean and won’t open up a dialogue with them. [/sarcasm]

    Seriously.

    Adding to Matt:
    Scientists have made mistakes in the past, and they will make mistakes in the future. Duh! They are humans. What does change and improve is the way science addresses the issues. Science builds upon knowledge from the past. Mistakes are analysed, measures are taken and procedures devised so these mistakes won’t happen again.
    Medicine isn’t an easy topic. So much is yet unknown, so much left to be understood. And if you haven’t studied this stuff you’d naturally be overwhelmed (I didn’t learn it and I am overwhelmed).
    If I want to do research on topics like vaccination, I’ll ask medical scientists, trained professionals who have studied very long and hard to be able (and allowed) to help people, and not Actors.

    (I hope I’m not preaching to the choir ;) )

  114. Mary Markusic

    andyb-April 26th, 2009 at 1:28 pm-Says:

    “No anti-vaxxers have dared to chip in to the comments on this post yet. Very Good.”

    I’M against vaccinations. I’m 65 yrs old, have never had a SINGLE VACCINATION in my entire life. I have traveled extensively to some of the filthiest countries on this planet. Never took a vaccination before I left either.

    The makers of vaccines are corrupt. There is evidence that the vaccines were tainted but Big Pharma/Big brother covered it up or persecuted independent research.

    I would much rather refuse vaccines INSTEAD of making my child accept 27 shots BEFORE he turns 5.

    So there.

    Mary in N.Carolina, U.S.A.

  115. @matt-yes there are instances where vaccinating a child would be dangerous. If the baby has a low functioning immune system etc etc. There are very good reasons why some people can not vaccinate their child. That being said-This whole anti-vax, the greening of the vax, movement is being pushed by an organization that believes that vaccines cause autism. That is their whole basis of argument.

  116. CryoTank

    Kathleen-
    Yep, their whole argument is based on the results of a faked study. Still they persist. Still they keep moving the goal posts. And they will never be satisfied and insist that vaccines still cause autism. Running in circles, I’d say.

  117. ccpetersen

    So, how much money do the anti-vaxxer proponents make out of their stance? Let’s get to the bottom of this. They can scream all they want about Big Pharma, but the anti-vax “leaders” are selling somethin too. Those fancy books and seminars they offer must be raking in the dough. Can we find out what their gross take is on perpetuating fear and lies? How much money have they made by preying on frightened people?

  118. jh

    Phil, let’s look at what’s going on in the world.

    We have swine flu, it’s made the jump , and it seems to be somewhat deadly in poorer medical areas. If it mutates again, and becomes more deadly here, we will have a rush to vaccinate and try to beat the flu. Right now, I suspect they’re trying to create the vaccine for this.

    Now, imagine 100,000 kids , or more.. not getting vaccinated. Imagine adults not getting vaccinated..

    We’re on the brink of “The Coming Plague”.. and it will wipe out a large number of people.

  119. @ccpetersen..check out Age of autism website…check out JB Handley-he was with Ms. McCarthy on Larry King Live-he has a website where he sells “cures”..This movement is very clever. Although they do concede that some autism may be caused by genetics…They are there for the parents of the “vaccine injured”..you see, if you are autistic by vaccine injury-they have “cures” “remedies” and reversals…but if you have a child who has autism caused by genetics…well sorry, they can’t help. So what do parents do? They want a cure-so they blame vaccines-It is frightening and fascinating at the same time. I agree with you-follow the money trail.

  120. Lick an Autistic

    Today’s xkcd comic on the vaccine-autism link:

    http://xkcd.com/574/

  121. Quiet Desperation

    It’s amazing how soon we forgot the scourges of smallpox and polio, gone now due entirely to childhood vaccinations.

    Sorry, not polio. There’s an anti-vax issue in some Islamic countries where imams are declaring the vaccines to be some sort of Western plot to… do… something or other. As a result, polio has reappeared in areas where it had been previously wiped out, or nearly so. Yay! Religion!

  122. Greg in Austin

    JM Said,

    “What does this have to do with Astronomy? This Blog used to be interesting. Now it’s just a pulpit for your rants and pontificating. Happy to unsubscribe.”

    JM, this is Phil’s blog. He can talk about whatever he wants. If you had your own blog, could I come there and tell you what you should talk about? If you don’t like the topic, don’t read it. Its that simple.

    8)

  123. For a humorous take on the antivax movement, check out . Be sure to read it through to the end.

  124. Greg in Austin

    henry said,

    “There is an idea that vaccines can be harmful to your children. This idea must be honestly discussed.”

    Do you believe this has not been discussed? Thoroughly? There have been 20-something independent scientific tests of the MMR vaccine looking specifically for a link between vaccines and autism, and the results were conclusive. There was a huge lawsuit that tried to prove vaccines caused autism, and it failed. What more do you want?

    “The discussion can be used as a blueprint for other health concerns: genetically modified food, irradiated food, hormones injected into cows, and many others.”

    I absolutely agree. Show me a scientific study that shows genetically modified food in any way is harmful, and we can talk about it. And by genetically modified, I don’t want to assume you mean maroon carrots, sweet onions, seedless watermelons, etc., because those are all genetically modified.

    The issue here is clearly a lack of education and understanding on the anti-vax proponents. Sure, there are plenty of people out there who are NOT educated on the benefits of vaccines, but they trust their doctors and get vaccinated. It would be great if we could educate everyone on this subject, but at least the ones that accept the vaccines are not endangering those around them.

    8)

  125. Quiet Desperation

    Happy to unsubscribe.

    [Jerry Seinfeld voice]Who are these people who are “subscribed” to this site?

    Thios isn’t a mailing list. It’s web page. You bookmark it. Der. So are they unbookmarking it?

  126. Dear sir/madam

    I am angry. Please unsubscribe me from your site.
    I will keep hitting reload until I get a 404 error.

    Thank you

  127. Luke

    I think the “follow the money” idea is a good one — it would be great to have some statistics on how much money is generated by the whole anti-vaxx movement by books, seminars, “natural alternatives”, appearances etc.

  128. @james: If you, your family and friends are so healthy cause of non-vaccination, how about we lock you all into a room of someone infected with measles? or polio?

    You just don’t get it. You’re so healthy because of the vaccines! Even though you and yours haven’t been vaccinated, you’re protected because everyone around you has. If you came into contact with someone who was infected, I guarantee you wouldn’t be quite so healthy.

  129. Sir Eccles

    Those commenting on this blog seemingly without reading the previous comments should take note of this article from this weekend’s NYTimes Magazine:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/magazine/26wwln-medium-t.html

    Neatly dissects the phenomenon.

  130. Becca Stareyes

    @marc

    I trust science precisely because it does re-evaluate its conclusions periodically. And includes upper/lower limits and error bars that tell you exactly how certain the group in question is about their results, and includes a list of what they did to show their conclusion, and has a bunch of other groups studying similar problems watching over their shoulders.

    The side-effects of vaccines are well documented, as are the effects of the diseases they present. Right now, things are a bit skewed because thanks to extensive vaccinations, you are a lot less likely to get a disease than you would be if no one was vaccinated. Part of the reason we have people who think measles or something is ‘harmless’, or that healthy unvaccinated people don’t get sick is because it’s hard to catch a disease when most people around you are immune. Possible, especially if vaccination rates drop, though, as this case shows. (Granted, things like good hygiene and sanitary practices and general good health help to minimize the harm if you do get sick, but that’s like saying that you shouldn’t drive safely if you wear your seatbelt.)

  131. Dawn

    @Mary Markusic: I would be VERY surprised if you were never vaccinated. Given that you are between my age and my mother, and at least the smallpox vaccine was required to attend school, I would think you had at least this vaccine. And I sincerely disbelieve you “have traveled extensively to some of the filthiest countries on this planet. Never took a vaccination before I left either.” You obviously never visited places where vaccines were REQUIRED for entry, so you visited countries that weren’t at such risk.

    As for being very healthy: my family (all fully vaccinated–from my still living parents in their 70’s to my children in their late teens) are all very healthy.

    Anecdote about health vs vaccines=1 for you, 1 for me. Tie score.

  132. Jason

    I’ve had the military version of a vaccine cocktail. I’m sure any other current or former members of the armed forces can tell you, they effectively bundle a whole bunch of neat little dead viruses and shove them with a spear sized needle into your arm.

    1) I didn’t die.
    2) I didn’t lose a limb or suffer terribly (I did feel woozy afterwards, but that may have been due to 2 days without sleep, nerves and the 40 odd puncture wounds in both arms)
    3) I haven’t suddenly burst (or collapsed?) into autism.

    Generally speaking, no one knows the cause of autism and frightened parents are searching for any answer. Frightened parents make good spokes people for causes without scientific evidence (see current war on drugs, vaccines, immigration, etc). Not to mention, distraught parents need to blame something, anything, when something happens to their child. I don’t blame them for their grief, it’s one of the coping mechanisms, but I do blame people who extort that grief for their own personal gain.

  133. @Dawn

    Anecdotes about being healthy after receiving vaccines, you can add me. Fully vaccinated, quite healthy. That makes it 2-1, vaccines lead. ;)

  134. Rift

    Sir Eccles- Thanks for that link I got a chuckle out of it, it summed up what goes on here perfectly.

    I’ve followed Phil for about 15 years now, first on his web site, with a forum of about 12 regulars. Thinks expanded, he seems to have favored blogging over writing articles for his website (which is kind of a shamed). His forum joined with universe today, and now has more moderators then it use to have posters. He also has more stiffer posting rules (no religion, no politics) and the moderators, thankfully, remove the very rude people.

    I partly read Phil’s blog because he will talk about politics and religion here, but I should be wise and not click on comments. Just not worth it.

    I’ve only recently started to read comments to this blog and will probably stop, while still reading Phil’s blog itself. There is a high noise, low signal ratio in the comments, with many of the people disagreeing with phil and other comments seemingly not reading or understanding what they are commenting on cause the same old rhetoric keeps popping up.

    A good example is the Jim Carey post where the very FIRST comment points out that anti-vaxers like to say vaccines are full of anti-freeze, neatly debunks that notion and says why the pro-disease faction makes up that lie. Only to be followed by dozens of “Vaccines have anti-freeze in them!” posts. The orginal poster has more patience then I would, he was constantly saying ‘read my first post’. It’s insanity.

    I will point out that I am guilty of reading a comment that un-nerves me (this is true on forums too though) write a post debunking it, only to read the rest of the comments and finding 27 other people have posted the same debunking I just did. I do it cause I don’t want to forget or get distracted, but one should really read to the end of the comments before adding more.

  135. Mary in N.Carolina, U.S.A. said “I have traveled extensively to some of the filthiest countries on this planet”

    You poor thing. I hope you only had limited interaction with the dirty heathen savages over there.

    Me? I love France.

  136. Laura

    As an adult, I contracted pertussis. I am pretty sure I picked it up from someone at work who came to work sick. I was vaccinated as a child, yet the efficacy waned as I grew. Wile sick, I was miserable. There were times when I could not go one minute without going into a coughing fit. I could not drive, I could barely walk at times. I am pretty sure I ripped a muscle in my abdomen during one pretty sever coughing fit. I did need medical intervention to help me through the illness, but I was not hospitalized.

    Remembering what I went through, I can not imagine a child with the same thing. Pertussis is not rare. This horrible case shows us the dire consequences that can be avoided. Please vaccinate your children. Please vaccinate yourself as your immunity wanes. I have first hand experience with how horrible this can be.

  137. As possibly the only one commenting here who survived whooping cough I can assure anyone who asks that it’s no small thing. It was very rare when I was 9; thus, the doctor made several incorrect diagnoses at first. It was my mother who finally figured it out one day when after a long coughing jag I gasped for air with the characteristic “whoop” sound. I saw the color drain from her face and her eyes bug out when she realized what it meant. She grew up in the 20s and knew first hand how deadly Whooping cough was. She knew kids who died from it. She brought me to the doctor that day to confirm it.

    We have grown so disconnected from this past history that the diseases that killed children in large numbers only a couple of generations ago look relatively harmless now. This floors me every time I encounter lunacy that I have read here. If you had a bad cough for a couple of weeks when you were a kid it was not whooping cough.

  138. @ jason..Burst into autism??!! Hahahaha you really made me laugh with that imagery. thanks:)

  139. @Mary Markusic

    I would much rather refuse vaccines INSTEAD of making my child accept 27 shots BEFORE he turns 5.

    So, you would also prefer being responsible for other people suffering serious injuries and perhaps even death because they came into contact with your child while they had one of the vaccine-preventable diseases?

    It is your choice. No one is going to take that away from you. But you need to bear in mind that when you make that choice, you are not just putting your child at risk for these diseases, you are also putting everyone with whom they come in contact at risk. That includes infants too young to receive the vaccines, transplant recipients whose immune systems are suppressed, the elderly, those allergic to the vaccines, AIDS patients and so on. Unless there is some medical reason (e.g., allergy) to not vaccinate your kid, and you simply do it based on ideology (Big Pharma’s bad), then you are responsible if anyone contracts the disease from your kid.

  140. RickT

    OMFG. Just when you thought the stupid couldn’t burn any worse — HuffPo has new recommendations for dealing with the swine flu outbreak. Enemas. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kim-evans/swine-flu-protect-yoursel_b_191550.html

  141. @Patriot-

    You need to read more of your own sources before you post them as backing your claim. First of all, the study was related to the method used to report vaccine reactions, not an in-depth study of the reactions themselves. Second, here’s your snip in context, saying that vaccines were not the cause of the SIDS-attributed deaths, and that SIDS deaths decreased due to the back-to-sleep campaign:

    A clinical research team follows up on all deaths reported to VAERS. The majority of these deaths were ultimately classified as sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS). Analysis of the age distribution and seasonality of infant deaths reported to VAERS indicated that they matched the age distribution and seasonality of SIDS; both peaked at aged 2–4 months and during the winter (15). The decrease in deaths reported to VAERS since 1992–1993 parallels the overall decrease in SIDS in the U.S. population since the implementation of the Back to Sleep campaign (15). Carefully controlled epidemiologic studies consistently have not found any association between SIDS and vaccines (16–19).

  142. @RickT
    Well obviously an enema is the best treatment for the flu. I think she is wrong about the maple syrup enema though. What goes better with bacon but maple syrup (and pancakes)? Of course swine flu should be treated with a maple syrup enema. You could probably wash that down (up?) with a coffee enema afterwards though.

  143. sophia8

    @Steven Dunlap: Yes, I keep telling people all the time that they should ask their grandparents about what life was like without vaccination.
    I’m not a lot younger than the alleged 65-year-old who posted above (saying that she wouldn’t vaccinate her 5-year old kid – right….), and I can remember seeing a kid in my street with leg irons from polio, plus loads of adults with smallpox-scarred faces. Who sees smallpox scars nowadays?
    I can also remember lines of mothers and kids stretching into the street every time the local clinic dispensed vaccinations -pretty much every mother in that line would had seen for herself what diseases like whooping cough and measles could do, and didn’t want it to happen to her child.
    Nobody seems to have pointed out the huge irony that every one of the anti-vaccination campaigners will have been vaccinated as a child; is there a single anti-vaxxer who can prove their non-vaccinated status?. Plus, they claim that vaccinations are unhealthy and lead to disease and death; if they are right, then there should by now be a substantial minority of healthy unvaccinated adults, with the vaccinated steadily dying off.
    So where are all these unvaccinated, bursting-with-health adults?

  144. Muzz

    After watching this debate for a while (the pan- debate not just this thread) there’s two major forms I note.
    One is mostly anecdotal agreement with the anti-vaxx position that can’t be shifted much beyond “Well it’s still something that should be looked at” with detailed argument and studies.
    The other, however, is extraordinarily detailed and esoteric anti vaccine debating that goes right into the minutiae of microbiology, studies people have never heard of, controversies in the funding and personalities of the scientists. It’s very confident and persuasive with seemingly voluminous evidence on its side and refutes things like ToddW’s sensible primer quite easily (not that I’ve seen it done specifically with that document).
    Once such arguments come along it seems crankishly obsessive and everyone usually gets bored or it gets beyond their expertise and people move on. But, while my reading isn’t close to exhaustive, I’ve never seen these highly detailed arguments specifically refuted and I wonder if they sort of just hang there quietly confirming the anti-vaxx case to anyone on the fence or confused.
    Most of this stuff would surely turn out to be misappropriated or wrong and is an example of burying your opponent in factoids. But it’s potent and I think what’s sadly needed in all this is a kind of Talk Origins style repository of point by point sledgehammer demolitions of every. single. argument.

    If there is one already and I missed it, I’d love to hear about it as I know some people who need to read it.

  145. @Muzz

    The other, however, is extraordinarily detailed and esoteric anti vaccine debating that goes right into the minutiae of microbiology, studies people have never heard of, controversies in the funding and personalities of the scientists. It’s very confident and persuasive with seemingly voluminous evidence on its side and refutes things like ToddW’s sensible primer quite easily

    I might have missed some of those studies you mention. Can you point me to some? Comments that get held up in moderation I tend to miss. Likewise posts to threads that are older. Thanks!

  146. Muzz

    Todd
    I’m afraid all I’ve got is drive-by recollections to bring to this party (vague ones at that), from a mostly casual observer. I recall obscure counter-arguments and evidence going un answered (not necessarily here), seemingly because it was ill understood or perhaps thought too nutty to bother with. I don’t know exactly where I saw them at the moment though. If I spot them again I’ll take note.
    M0st of this stuff probably has been neatly refuted at one time or another. It just needs to be collected somewhere and laid out. Yours is terrific btw, but I fear only the beginning.
    cheers

  147. @Muzz

    There was something that John Best posted in the Jim Carrey thread, but I refused to respond to him until he grew up and could engage in respectful dialogue.

    It just needs to be collected somewhere and laid out.

    Working on it, along with Larian and IVAN3MAN.

  148. leftbrain/right brain has a lot of data on the vaccine debate

  149. Technogoof

    This is really scaring me. All my kids have been vacinated but now I am afraid to send them to school out of fear that someone else’s kid is going to bring Something in. What happened to my rights to have a safe and healthy environment for my kids to go to school and play in . What gives these parents the right to put our kids at risk because of thier stupidity. Personally if you dont want to vaccinate move to a desert isle somehwere and keep your bug carrying muchkins away from mine.

  150. @RickT

    I share you amazement.

    The article starts out with an emotional appeal (‘loved ones’) and I firmly believe medical and health advice is a dish best served cold.

    Then follows rather mundane, logical, if slightly impractical advice.
    Followed by cleansing, pointing out a program deemed not quite up to standard and finally a link. Now I don’t mind if someone leads an article towards ones own product because I’m intelligent enough to qualify it on its own merit. However, cleansing is one of those things that sounds like something that might work but where first impressions and intuition throw us a curveball.

    If anything, first impressions, intuition, personal observation should be used with the utmost caution, preferrably only when there are no other options.

  151. coolstar

    Glad to see Phil has stopped endorsing (at least for now), the Mommy Wars and is actually touting good science, again.

  152. Ann

    One more time. To call the Huffington Post a “cesspool” and refuse to have anything to do with them again seems to me the exact wrong reaction to have if you want to get your message out and more importantly accepted by us, of the herd. In order to find that article by Jim Carry in the Huffington Post, which is not a place that most people go for medical advice anyway, you would have to have been looking for it. I’ll tell you where many, many people do go for advice of that nature. Oprah. You gonna call her a “cesspool” also, it isn’t going to have much affect except a negative one. Speaking for the herd, we love Oprah. And Oprah gave Jenny Mccarthy at least one hour that I saw on network TV to talk about this very issue and promote her book. The Skeptics community is all well and good. But they already agree with you and they don’t make health decisions for the vast majority of children.

  153. Greg in Austin

    @Ann,

    So, are you’re saying its OK for millions of people to listen to Jenny McCarthy instead of hundreds of thousands of real doctors, or are you saying that’s just the way it is?

    Seems to me like some people prefer to remain ignorant, and no amount of facts or data is going to change their minds.

    How many viewers do you think would stay tuned if Oprah spent an hour reading studies from a scientific journal?

    8)

  154. Ann

    I myself don’t think I called it a cesspool, or anything at all. However, I got to think about it, I’d say its a tad silly. Nonetheless, Oprah has killer ratings. Now I’m getting silly too.

    Disclaimer: all the, eh, profound insight from the vaccination safety doubters made me do this, its their fault.

  155. Greg in Austin

    Ann said,

    “In order to find that article by Jim Carry in the Huffington Post, which is not a place that most people go for medical advice anyway, you would have to have been looking for it. I’ll tell you where many, many people do go for advice of that nature. Oprah.”

    That is the most ridiculous an pathetic statement I’ve heard all day, and its probably 100% accurate. Its sad that so many people (mostly women and mothers*) would believe everything that Oprah says, and blindly base their life decisions on what she preaches on television. Oprah is out for the money, just like every other talk show host, and anyone who believes otherwise is fooling themselves. Granted, she’s very good at what she does. She doesn’t care if Jenny is right or wrong, she really only cares that Jenny is popular, controversial, and a cash cow for her business.

    *Please note, I’m not trying to be sexist here, I’m just going by the statistics:

    “From the demographics of visitors to her site oprah.com, we can get an idea of the typical Oprah follower. For the four weeks ending May 5, 2007, 72.8% of Oprah’s visitors were female, 66.4% of her visitors were 35 or older.”

    8)

  156. Greg

    Hey guys, allow me to break it down for you. Many vaccines contain a preservative called Thimerosal which contains ethyl mercury. In fact 50% of the weight of thimerosal is mercury. Mercury has been shown to be neurotoxin, especially methyl mercury which is found mostly in seafood. It just so happens that methyl mercury takes longer to metabolise than ethyl, and it can be transfered neo nataly, as well as through breast milk. Unfortunatly fetuses are more sensitive to the effects than adults(Bakir et al. 1973) Compounding this exposure, is the use of thimerosal in a host of other products..nasal and skin test antigens to name a few. This prompted concern..obviously, and in cdc and the fda and the iom, drug companies all got together, and in 2007 most products in america have either no thimersol, or trace amount(1 microgram). A notable exception is the flu vaccine. Studies are still inclusive and are still being undertaken. There is no doubt about high levels of mercury, messing people up. The problem to date is, there have not been any studies, animal or human, on the effect of ethylmercury on neurological development.(Mago’s 2001) Adding to the toxicity issue is the utilization of adjuvants..these help the immune system respond quicker to the vaccine. The problem is they contain aluminum salts which have been linked to motor neuron death(Shaw CA 2007)

  157. Mark Hansen

    Oh dear, another MUD* believer.
    marc, polio was known to the ancient Egyptians. Did teh ebil US gummint time-travel and release it there? These diseases have been known and described for quite some time, in most cases before Columbus ran into America. Please do some basic research on the antiquity of these diseases before coming out with ridiculous and easily disproved statements.

    MUD = Made Up Disease.

  158. Hey Greg, let me break it down for you: you’re wrong. Only the flu vaccine still has thimerosal in it, and only in very small amounts. The other vaccines have none at all. And it didn’t have methyl mercury in it, it had ethyl mercury, a totally different compound, which is not a health issue in vaccines. You might want to educate yourself before saying things that will scare people and potentially cause the deaths of infants.

    Seriously, antivaxxers. Maybe you missed the part of my post where I said BABIES ARE DYING.

    The misinformation you spread has the potential to kill. Educate yourself.

  159. Speaking for the herd, we love Oprah. And Oprah gave Jenny Mccarthy at least one hour that I saw on network TV to talk about this very issue and promote her book.

    And therein lies the biggest problem. You love Oprah so much to death that you’ll do anything or believe anything that she airs on her show, no matter how ridiculous or wrong it is.

    ***By you I mean your “herd”, not necessarily you personally, Ann. But make sure you know that if you, personally, do follow or believe whatever you hear on her show, you need to seriously reconsider your priorities.

  160. Greg

    The IOM recently released their findings, which rejected the casual relationship between autism and thimersol, HOWEVER, the hypothesis generated is still biologicaly plausible(MMWR 54 [RR08]: 1-40, 2005). Furthermore the recomendation of the board was that the risk of not being vaccinated was much higher than the risk of being harmed by exposure to the vaccines. The danger of not vaccinating the child is on the child himself. If your kids are vaccinated, then they are immune to it allready. For now herd immunity is keeping them safe. The risk of neurological disorders and development is real…its just the level of danger and the likely hood of it occuring is very low, especially now that the FDA has gotten most thimerosal out of the USA markets.

  161. Yojimbo

    @Greg

    Gee – nobody here every heard any of that before. Thanks for the enlightenment.

    Aaargh!

  162. I just read the article RickT linked to above. And i think i know where Huffington Post’s editors are, the ones that should be checking articles for efficacy/plausibility/BS. They’re busy moderating the forums, making sure people like me are not able to post strongly (but not rudely) worded comments criticizing HP for allowing said articles to go up.

    At least the Weekly World News was *obvious* BS. I have to wonder if HP has any legal obligation for playing such a large role in promoting these kinds of public heath threats?

  163. Greg

    Phil you need to reread the posting..cuz it clearly states methyl is from seafood primarily, and ethyl comes from metabolised or downgraded themerosal. Try to read the content before making an uniformed and derisive statement that only makes you look like an idiot. The report and findings are sited and came straight from the cdc, fda, and the iom. I also stated that the themerosal is present but in trace amounts..1 microgram.

  164. Greg

    yojimbo read subsequant postings..you will find several wondering what the arguments are..specifically the biological considerations

    arghh

  165. Greg

    yojimbo
    read subsequant postings..you will find several wondering what the arguments are..specifically the biological considerations

    arghh

  166. Spunk-Monkey

    I can’t read HP anymore, not for its content, but for its, well, artwork, so to speak. A barrage if images and letters. It takes more effort than I care to put into it to read past it.

  167. ndt

    henry Says:
    April 26th, 2009 at 10:26 pm
    There is an idea that vaccines can be harmful to your children. This idea must be honestly discussed. This is similar to the fluoridation concerns that some people have. Just calling them kooks is not helpful. These people don’t trust the medical communities. Why? What is the risk of caused by vaccination versus the risk of not being vaccinated? The video tells one side of the story: a baby is dead. Is there an increase the rate of autism for the vaccinated population over the non-vaccinated population? Are there other issues that have not been presented? All issues must be openly discussed.

    All those issues have been investigated and have been discussed. When people continue thinking vaccines can be harfmul to children despite the fact that the research shows the opposite, we call them kooks.

  168. ndt

    marc Says:
    April 27th, 2009 at 2:48 am
    Nice use of labels, calling them nutters assumes that each and everyone of those that refuses vaccines is just retarded and allows you to disregard their views. I will refuse vaccines for my children, based upon my understanding of the world. Those that are in the place of authority in this country and around the world do not have your best interests in mind. I see you as naive for your willing embrace of the authoritative view. But in truth I understand you are just scared, because you believe in disease. One day this world will wake up to find that we created all these diseases. What you think about comes about.

    If you believe that, you’re a nutter.

  169. Just need to point out that immunity to pertussis, as with tetanus, wears off after some time, which is why adults get ten-year boosters containing tetanus, pertussis, and diphtheria antigens. (see @Shannon ‘s story above about contracting whooping cough) And just because adults don’t suffer the horrible whoop-whoop-vomit symptoms that kids do, doesn’t mean that pertussis doesn’t affect them – it DOES cause a nasty cough in many people, just not as bad as in small kids. Protecting ourselves as well as kids we contact are two good reasons why we adults should keep up to date on our own shots, and not just when travelling to tropical countries!

    They took the pertussis antigen out of the adult booster in the US a while ago (Td) but now it’s back (Tdap). Here’s the CDC’s adult immunization schedule if anyone’s interested. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5753a6.htm?s_cid=mm5753a6_e

  170. Rupert

    I would rather my baby die than be autistic.

  171. Greg

    wow rupert, you think that one through? The vaccines are pretty much good to go now. The flu vac has 1 microgram of the preservative in question. The link between autism and vaccinations has never been proven, its been debunked since 2004..look on the fda website..or IOM. Do us all a favor, take the kid to the dr and do the right thing

  172. sailor

    “I will refuse vaccines for my children, based upon my understanding of the world. ”
    We all model our worlds, but most of us keep enough correspondence with reality to avoid ending up in the twilight zone.

  173. Adelaide

    In a previous life I was a Public Health Nurse whose sole responsibility was to promote vaccines for vaccine preventable diseases I think that it is too late to convince a parent to immunise (Australian spelling) their children. The education needs to be started and the knowledge base well established before parenthood. In my experience of talking with parents of babies/children who are consciencious objecters, they are so in love with the romance of their earth child that there is no logic, concern for others or reasoning that can be effectively applied. I now no longer work in this area. I got so completely irritated with mothers who could not imagine that their precious child would ever undertake an activity that would put them at risk of Hep B even. I am now of the opinion that if this section of the community want to put the rest at risk then they should also choose to exclude themselves from society (childcare, school, crowded public places). I have personally gone so far as to exclude a former friend and her family of unvaccinated children from my children until her family was completey vaccinated. She was fully within her rights to choose the consequences of not vaccinating for her family but not for mine.

  174. Lawrence

    @Rupert – I hope you are joking. Otherwise, try saying that to the parents of an autistic child.

  175. Another Greg

    Hey, is there any more room on that anti-vaccination coffin for another nail?

    I just finally watched the video, and while I was reading the discussion something struck me. Here we have a community with an identified different rate of vaccination to the Aussie national norm. 1/3 unvaxed, IIRC from the report. It should be simple to study autism rates in that community, and compare with the national avg. If the anti-vaxers are right, autism should be significantly lower (of course, we know it won’t be). It seems to me that this would be as close to the study proposed by some of the main mouthpieces, and still be medically ethical.

  176. James (the pro-vaccination one)

    It gets kind of confusing when someone with completely the opposite viewpoint starts posting under exactly the same handle as you.

    Perhaps I should start linking a particular website or something.

  177. @rupert-I can’t even think of an adequate enough response. Mission completed-you’ve caused pain.

  178. Diggitt

    188 posts in, and the thread is still going.

    A couple comments. Mary Markusic, age 65, claims that she has never been vaccinated and has traveled the wide world, including a lot of filthy countries. And she lives in the U.S. What I want to know, Mary, is how you got back into the U.S. when you traveled outside with no immunizations? Everyone who travels to countries with health hazards is required to have all sorts of immunizations, generally before they leave the U.S. in the first place — or they will not be allowed back into the country. Sorry, Mary, it’s the law, and it’s been the law for five decades or longer.

    Folks, I guess Mary is just funnin’ ya. Her story can’t be true.

    I have some vaccination anecdotes. In the mid-1890s, in an Ohio city, my great-grandparents (both in their late 20s) died within a week of each other. From measles. Both came from large families, so they presumably were around people with measles growing up, but they didn’t get measles from their siblings or anyone else — not even subclinical cases, obviously, since there they were … in their 20s and vulnerable. They left three orphans under five.

    I was in grade school when the Salk (live) vaccine arrived. We were near Pittsburgh, and my school may have been in a test area because we got our shots before the rest of the country. One of my classmates — whose father was a doctor and didn’t apparently trust Dr. Salk — didn’t get the Salk shots. He did, however, get polio in the few years between then and the availability of the Sabin vaccine. I will bet he had no problems seeing that his kids were vaccinated! Incidentally, having reached late middle age as a polio survivor, he now has post-polio syndrome, which is pretty brutal. I haven’t seen him for years but I will bet he wishes he had been vaccinated along with the rest of us.

    The actress Gene Tierney famously caught German measles during a pregnancy in the 1940s. Her baby was born with severe developmental disabilities, and Tierney basically disappeared from films because (allegedly) her heart was broken or something. I once read that in later years she met a fan who gushed about how she wanted to see Tierney and met her and got her autograph, even though she (the fan) was supposed to be home since she had — German measles. That’s only anecdotal, BUT women who are pregnant today were generally immunized against German measles as little kids and do not face that fear.

  179. I really hope that at least someone is still watching this post and comments-and that they take the time to look at this link. Unfortunately, the anti-vax movement has used only the darkest side of autism in order to spread fear. Ruperts post said it all. Calling it a disease-or even devestating, promotes the myth that genrescue, Jenny McCarthy and the like would have you believe. Unless, you are personally involved with a child with autism-you would have no idea the many ways it can manifest. You can call autism whatever you want-but understand, please, that using only negatives promotes the anti-vax campaign.language does indeed matter. please watch this.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_dPZDcX_ck

    Thankyou.

  180. Rupert –

    Is there something you want me to tell me to my son?

  181. Yojimbo

    @Greg

    Sorry dude, but if at this point in this thread, which is just one of many, you start off with “Hey guys, allow me to break it down for you. Many vaccines contain a preservative called Thimerosal which contains ethyl mercury…” it doesn’t sound much like you’re breaking new ground. Or like you have paid any attention to anything that came before. Maybe it was the tone?

    Arrrgh matey!

  182. Ann

    Seriously, you are unaware that Oprah already has ALL THE MONEY IN THE WORLD. Seriously, you don’t know that? In it for the money. She gave $10 million dollars to a project to rehab homes in New Orleans after Katrina. Oprah doesn’t need any more money. I don’t ” follow” Oprah. I watch and learn. And so do a lot of other people making health decisions for their children. Again with the sneering. You want to reach people. Two words for ya. Dr. Oz. Children die all over the world all the time from all sorts of things. Right here in this country because the Big Pharma can’t be bothered to put nice, big splashy color codes on different doses of the same drug so that some stressed out, exhausted health care worker doesn’t inadvertently administer a DEADLY dose to a newborn. This has been going on for years, could be easily fixed and somehow never gets done. Explain that to me if you can.
    But I digress. Her show makes a point of putting on opposing views if you make a good case. If you get Dr. Oz on board, you are there. Boring studies? What was the genius of Carl Sagan? Enthusiastic and understandable communication of science to the rest of us in the herd. And his enthusiasm became our enthusiasm and our appreciation and support of science. Find someone who can communicate the information without being boring or offensive, get them on that show and you will reach a lot of parents who are making such healthcare decisions for their children at this very moment. Since this is a public health issue I should think getting some time would not be such a tough sell.
    Ask what you can do to convince them. Please don’t tell me there is no way, I don’t believe that. Distrust and fear can be allayed with the right approach.

  183. @Anne-there were a number of people that have tried to get on her show-including representatives from the cdc. People who did want to portray another point of view. They were turned down. You say “find someone who won’t be boring or offensive” You hit the nail on the head. Jenny McCarthy screaming at people is much more entertaining than A Dr. discussing the safety of vaccines. Oprah is about entertainment.

  184. Susan

    This issue is not cut-and-dried. I’m personally glad they took Thimerosol out of childhood vaccines (and want them to take it out of all vaccines). Does Thimerosol cause autism? -Apparently not. But it is a neurotoxin and we are quite capable of producing vaccines that don’t include it. Anecdote alert! An elderly friend of mine who volunteers in the health-care field reacts badly when she is required to be vaccinated for flu and pneumonia.

    I have two adult daughters whom I vaccinated on the approved (at that time) schedule. My older daughter was fine, but my younger reacted to her dPT. I thank goodness for herd immunity, -she was switched to dT for the rest of her immunizations course, but was protected by the immunity of those around her who were able to tolerate the dPT. Another anecdote: her half-sister (my step-daughter) reacted to the vaccination when her doctor recommended that she receive the full dPT booster as an adult when she needed a Tetanus booster. There might be a genetic component that determines who reacts badly to the pertussis vaccine. If monitoring could help identify in advance who would likely be adversely affected by a particular vaccine, alternatives could be developed. If parents could know in advance that their children did not fit into the small subset of children to whom a specific vaccine posed a danger, -we might have a resurgence in trust in immunizations.

    Let’s work together!

  185. ccpetersen

    I personally wouldn’t trust Oprah to put on an honest opposing viewpoint. AS others have said,she’s all about the entertainment (and the self-promotion). If she really cared about truth, she would have done it long ago. But, it’s much more fun to put on celebs with mouthy attitudes. They get ratings — and Oprah, again, shows us what she’ll do to capture viewers.

  186. Kaye

    There are so many posts its a shame I dont have the time right now to read every single one but its so encouraging to see the responses.
    I live in the Northern Territory of Australia and have four children and I cried uncontrollably watching that video. I was so shocked to find out there are masses of people out there who didnt immunise their children! I feel almost embarrased that I was so unaware. Vaccinating my children was a given. I dont know the exaclt rules with enrolling your children in school in this state but I have always guessed it was only allowed on the basis your child is up to date with their vaccinations. Being always asked proof of this led me to just assume.
    I was also wondering what the system is like is the US? The Australian government offers incentives to parents by giving a one off payment (somewhere around $250) for each child who is fully immunised by the time they reach 24 months. It has been some time since I recieved this payment for my third child, and will be some time before I recieve it for my fourth so I could not tell you with all confidence if this payment has changed in any way.
    Ive always applauded the Australian government for at least trying to reach out to those who might consider otherwise. I for one dont care about the money, and would still immunise regardless.
    I will definitely be showing this video and blog to people. I think its a cause worth fighting for.

  187. I watch and learn. And so do a lot of other people making health decisions for their children.

    And that’s the problem. Stop getting medical advice from an afternoon talk show host.

  188. Fred

    Based on my experience as a child and my children, all of whom have the same hereditary response to certain nutrients as I do, is that the autism link to vaccine, if it exists, is more complicated and indirect. Suppose that there is a certain nutrient, the lack of which causes faulty immune responses to both vaccinations and to exposures to viral or bacterial diseases, such as a common cold. My young daughter had such a response to a cold. She stopped talking for several years, started stimming and a variety of other behaviors. She continues to have neurological problems as do I, though dimminished because of treatment, there was damage. The key nutrients are the two natural active forms of b12, methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin. Folks who get CFS, FMS, CFIDS, ME, Alzheimer’s, and these are just the ones tested for so far, all have the same smoking gun; levels of cobalamins in their Cerebral Spinal Fluid that is one half that of folks not so afflicted. This is just starting to be investigated. As some brands of methylcobalamin are 100 times more effective than other brands as tested by hypersensitives, it’s good to investigate. Sublingual tablets of selected brands can be as effective as active b12 injections for many people. The other active b12, adenosylb12 (dibencozide) is also available in sublingual form. This powers the mitochondria of the body including those in the brain. In these people b12 deficiency crises can be caused by vaccination, colds, strep, viruses in general, cyanocobalamin (in some people), physical injury and a lot of other causes obscuring the connection to vaccination. My friends give their children extra methylb12 and adenosylb12 sublingual tablets or drops before and after vaccinations in order to prevent these problems. So far it may have helped but it’s hard to know because of so few people. They don’t fear the vaccinations now.

  189. Jax

    @phil plait – you asked for proof that children die of vaccines yet you refer to antivaxers as uninformed?

    vaers.hhs.gov/

    US government tracking. I understand that the British have the same sort of thing.

    Also, as someone who has had more vaccines than most people who will comment here (ex military – we get shot with all sorts of stuff every two years), I have a vested concern in how the vaccines I received will affect my future children and whether they are a good idea or not.

    For the record, I am fully satisfied that there is no link between thimerosal and autism. What I would like to see though is a study that determines how many completely un-vaccinated children have been diagnosed with autism. I want to see if there is a link with vaccines at all, not just with thimerosal. If such a study were done and it was found that un-vaccinated children have the same (relatively so) rate of autism as vaccinated children, would that not by itself conclusively put the issue to rest?

    As far as I am concerned, all of the fighting over thimerosal is a red herring. And you cannot blame the un-vaccinated children in the area for the little girl dying of whooping cough. Correlation does not equal causation after all. If you insist on blaming them, you are no better than the antivaxers who blame thimerosal for autism.

  190. mfellion

    At least one thing is clear from the anti vacine crowd. They and their children will not be around when the big epedemic comes along as it will. I and my family have taken all the vacines available in the US. You just need to tell your doctor you are going to deepest Africa or somewhere in the Amazon. Unfortunately the TB vacine is absense in the US so you have to get it in Europe but that is not a hard problem. You just tell them you are going to a TB area.

  191. meierrain

    FYI – Law and Order SVU is taking on the antivax movement; in tonight’s episode they charge a mother with murder of someone else’s child bc her own unvaccinated child passed the virus. Framing it as a matter of choice.

  192. CWNNC

    I have 4 kids, all were vaccinated, but not as newborns. I think that is the question being raised, not vaccination, but when. And who infected this child with whooping cough in the first place? Did her parents take her around to show her off, with no concern about the health of those around her? Has enough time passed that a comparison can be made concerning early vaccinations versus autism or other systemic problems?

    When I was a kid, nobody was allergic to peanuts, and it is thought that introduction of peanut products to children at too young of an age started this gene malfunction. A healthy mother breatfeeding her kids for the first year is what nature intended, and the benefits to both mother and child are extensive. Check the cancer rate among women who breatfeed, and the allergy levels of kids who were breast fed. It’s quite a bit lower in both cases.

    10,000 years of recorded history and in the last 60 or so, we think we know a better way to start a newborn on his way. Well, it doesn’t seem to be working out.

  193. Henry Gibson

    If an illness of one child can be traced to someone who was not vaccinated when recommended there should be deadly assault charges filed against the parents of the non-vaccinated child and civil damages should be allowed. With DNA sequencing there can be better proof of the origin of the infection. If a child is not vaccinated at the demand of the parents, that child should not be allowed to come in contact with any other person including its own siblings and not be allowed in any public school or private school or care center, and it or its parents may not receive any other public support.

    Yes vaccinations have always caused death and disease to a limited number of people, but far more children are killed or injured by automobiles operated by their parents. Un vaccinated people die far more frequently than vaccinated ones, but it is not reported because it is too common; some times in unlimited numbers. Smallpox killed most of the native people of the American continent, but it only took measles to wipe out most of the native Hawaiians. Perhaps the non vaccinators will also start drinking bottled water taken directly from the streams to avoid chlorine and filtration and feed it to their children. ..hg..

  194. Matt

    @Kathleen:
    I’m aware of the anti-vax position and the reason for it. The point of my post was to make aware that medical science is aware of the potential issues with vaccination, and that none of the things the anti-vaxxers claim are true. Moreover, that the supposed “threats” of vaccination are easily recognizable provided you have an intelligent doctor (one with a PhD in pediatrics, medicine, etc…, not in homeopathy or any else of that non-sense). The testing and research is important and effective. There is a lot they don’t know, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a lot they do know. In sum – we are on the same side of a debate I am well-aware of.

  195. Lisa

    I have adult children and had them vaccinated when they were little, I also was vaccinated as a kid and now have grandkids. It was horrible seeing that poor baby suffer and the suffering of her family is just tragic. But I also see that it’s not all black and white either. You need to watch this clip of Robert Kennedy Jr. and what he’s uncovered with this whole issue. I believe that there needs to be an overhaul in what’s put into these vaccines and anyone that blindly believes that big pharma and the gov’t are just concerned for our welfare well your just fools. There is an old saying “follow the money” and this is HUGE money, in addition our gov’t is notorious for covering crap up. I want my grandkids vaccinated but it’s going to be without thimerisol and it’s going to be like the vaccine schedule my kids were on. Also the science and so called research “proving” vaccines are safe IS JUNK SCIENCE. So this should not be a one sided debate, we as parents and citizens need to DEMAND that our gov’t produce safe as well as effective vaccines, is case everyone has forgotten they are supposed to work for us!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrIM2hwrLoc&feature=player_embedded

  196. clare

    First time on this blog. I feel compelled to contribute although I am a ‘medical consumer’ not trained in any medical way. I haven’t watched the video of the dying child. I am a mother–I don’t need to see this kind of emotionalism to get the point. Life is full of it’s tragedies, the only debate is whether any given action can avoid some of them. I am of the generation that had the measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox as a course of growing up and none the worse for the wear (my luck). Did get vaccinations for Polio, smallpox,DPT, also apparently without incident. My three kids got every kind there was for their ages, mostly because I was afraid not to get them for them. Later on, the school system required the vaccinations.

    Fear is a powerful emotion, as is watching a child suffer. Both sides of this debate are using these tactics liberally, it seems, and really exploiting these strong emotions, when an honest appraisal of the pros and cons would serve us better. I don’t see that name calling and demonizing serve the debate either.

    1) We are a people that pride ourselves on our ability to question the status quo. So let’s respect each others right to ask the questions. The dialogue may be difficult and emotional, but necessary.
    2)We have also come to expect, historically, to not be told the truth or the whole truth, and this has become the game that is played. We have come to feel that we must dig for complete answers, and this makes (some of us) suspicious of the answers, especially if we feel that the ones with the answers have a vested interest in NOT telling the whole truth.
    3)We have a society that openly professes to welcome new ideas, new products, including innovations in medicine. Unfortunately, as the current turn in the economy reminds us, more people are interested in making money than doing the right thing.
    4)We don’t really care to be told what to do without a good reason. It’s our nature as a nation. We want to know why.
    5) We are problem solvers–thus, the questions and, necessarily, the need for full and complete answers. Sometimes, then we have trouble accepting the answers until we assure ourselves of the veracity.

    Given my take on the above, I understand the need for the questions, and sometimes the people on the front lines are the ones who have to get the grass roots movement going. Granted, celebrity status gets attention, warranted or not. The governmental entities are reactive not proactive. And the entities with the money for lobbyists are the ones who initially get attention.

    I was aware the themerisol controversy, and was somewhat relieved by subsequent studies, and thoroughly relieved that it is progressively being eliminated from the vaccines. One of the questions is ‘why was it in there in the first place?’.

    Everyone comes to any issue with a history, a life of experiences which color our perceptions, not always helpful in maintaining an open mind. My questioning nature? I have had my struggles with the medical community–a missed diagnosis for breast cancer, proceedure which infected my pancrease (I am now diabetic). But it seems that the various doctors I have had to see in my life, most seem more interested in keeping me coming back. The way to accomplish this is to medicate, medicate, medicate. I must return to get the medicines which are only available thru a doctor. Yes, I have had life saving medicines. But are all medicines effective? Lifesaving? Necessary? Any alternatives? We know that doctors are not necessarily the best informed on medications, some a la overmedicating older patients, giving medicines which interact badly, overusing antibiotics. Even the good ones are anxious to please their patients, and offer instant ‘cures’.

    So, do we place the health and wellbeing of our entire country in the hands of the pharma? We have had a huge number of life saving medicine and life improving medicines made available over the last few decades. And they have made billlions. However, I am old enough to remember the swine flu vaccine fiasco. A year or so ago, the Governor of Texas tried to make it mandatory to vaccinate our daughters against some of the sexually transmitted viruses that may cause cervical cancer. It hasn’t been but a couple of decades since we woke up to find out our college aged young people did not receive lifetime immunity from the MMR and needed to be revaccinated. Several times a year, new ads appear to sue over medicines that not only don’t work, but cause harm.

    I guess my concern is that useless, unnecessary and possibly harmful medicines get developed and marketed, along with the good and useful medicines, and provided to the public by health officials and doctors, who may or may not know all about the pros and cons. Lets face it, pharmaceutical companies cannot continue to reap the mountain of money if they don’t sell us more and more medicine. Like any business is looking to expand its market share and create new products for new markets. And physicians, for better or worse, are the facilitators.

    So, my conclusion is that we have to accept that there will be the bad (or ‘not so good’) with the very good in ‘medical’ products, and we have the right and the responsibility to ourselves, and our children to seize the ability to question where these products fit into a healthy society. That includes fostering a dialogue. There will always be the extreme opinions on both sides of the issue that motivate the dialogue. There are always people for whom the answers are simple and those for whom the conclusions are never easy.

  197. Na

    I saw the ad for this before it was on (I’m an Aussie), and I thought to myself: yep, that’s Aussie commercial TV for you. Our commercial channels show the most ridiculous ‘current affairs’ programs, and I can’t understand why anyone actually watches it. I don’t think their viewers ever have any sort of critical thinking skills: the programming is always about the big bad guy out to scam you, or ‘savings’ schemes, or credit card schemes, or something just as badly researched. And of course, half of it is also press releases dressed up to look like news. It’s nothing but tabloid journalism at its worst.

    (And I’m behind on my reading again, and see I have 204 comments to wade through…)

  198. Dr rachie (Maggie) said: “These people do not deserve air-time in my opinion, but if they campaign hard enough, the station may cave in and give them the chance for rebuttal.”

    Well, it’s happened. I’ve just seen an ad for next week’s show and it promises to “challenge the experts” on childhood vaccinations. The Channel Seven scare campaign begins now…

  199. Bill

    In the 1900s and before (including much of my lifetime), MILLIONS of people without vaccinations died or became disabled every year from diseases like smallpox, diptheria, measles, mumps, polio, typhoid, typhus, hepatitis–on and on and on. Yes, there is a small risk of complications from vaccinations, but this risk is almost NOTHING compared to what existed before vaccinations. Unless there is a specific, known serious individual problem, anyone who doesn’t vaccinate either themselves or their children against preventable diseases is an ignorant fool.

  200. tegan

    im from western australia and my two kids aged 3 and 9mths are vaccinated and will continue to get vaccinated.in some schools over here you must prove your child is immunised before they start school.(i know first hand as my niece wasnt aloud to start school till she had her 4yr old vaccination).oh and yes i also have my children vaccinate against the flu too.

    people need to stop and think about how not vaccinating their child could affect other children.i dont believe the lady who said she has traveled to filthy countrys and not been vaccinated either,my brother has too ad before he could leave australia had to be vaccinated.

    as for the person who said they’d rather their child have autism,you make me sick.i have a friend with a autisic child and it is not something to wish on your child because your too high and mighty to get them vaccinated.how self centred can you get.
    personally i believe EVERY parent should get their child VACCINATED.

  201. Julian

    Clare – after reading your very ‘moderate’ rant against against medicine and how evil doctors must be, I can confidently say you don’t know squat about vaccines. Now go back to your mothering forums.

    Seriously, can’t you read or do all you anti-medicine nutjobs just ignore everything that’s ever posted on a thread? Oh what’s that you say? ‘It’s a long thread?’ Screw that. You wanna get involved in a conversation you read up on what’s been discussed in that conversation.

  202. @Lisa

    I took a look at that video you linked to. RFK Jr. repeats several claims that have already been shown to be either false or misleading. To whit:

    * “Autism had never been known before thimerosal was put into vaccines.” – While technically true, in terms of an official diagnosis, people exhibited symptoms of autism back in the late 1800s. (aut.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/8/1/7) The formal diagnosis was first developed in, I believe it was 1943. That does not mean that the disorder did not exist before that point but called by a different name (e.g., “madness”, “aloof”, “retarded”, etc.). To borrow an example from someone else, two scientists go shopping in a Chinese market and discover a species of rat that was up until that point “unknown to science”. So, did the rat just suddenly spring into existence because it was discovered by scientists? Or, had it been around for a while?

    * “All of the vaccines had thimerosal in them.” – Wrong. A number of vaccines, such as the MMR, never had any thimerosal in them, even when the vaccine schedule was changed to include more vaccines.

    * “We are injecting 400 times more mercury than the FDA or EPA deems to be safe.” – RFK Jr. is making the same mistake so many anti-vaxers do, equating the EPA guidelines for safe exposure to methylmercury (which is from sources like fish and other environmental contaminations, not vaccines) to be the same for ethylmercury (which is in thimerosal). Please click on my name for a bit more about thimerosal.

    * “A child is injected on their first day with a hepatitis B shot.” – RFK Jr. suggests that the HepB vaccine contains mercury. It does not. See fda.gov/cber/vaccine/Thimerosal.htm#t1 (add www to the beginning) for more information.

    * “1 in 6 children have neurological disorders (e.g., ADD, hyperactivity, learning disorders, language delays, etc.) that science shows is connected to autism.” – No sources for such a claim, for starters. Second, all of the diseases he mentions are very frequently misdiagnosed.

    * RFK Jr. points at the increased number of vaccines and correlates it to an increase in autism cases. This ignores confounding variables, such as greater awareness of the disorder, expanded diagnostic criteria from a discrete disorder to a spectrum (i.e., more inclusive criteria means more people fall under the diagnosis), changes in diagnostic tools/questionnaires that “catch” more people, and increases in public funding for specialized care (some parents, not all, desire special attention for their child and so seek a diagnosis that gains this attention and funding).

    * “The science is out there that links thimerosal to autism.” – Thus far, the only studies that show any kind of link between thimerosal and autism are rather seriously flawed. He claims to have read “hundreds” of studies linking thimerosal to disastrous neurological disorders. Well, let’s see them.

    * “This [legitimate studies] is classic tobacco science.” – RFK Jr. tries to say that all of the studies that contradict the claim that thimerosal is linked to autism are exactly like the studies that the tobacco companies put out, saying there was no harm. He ignores the fact that very early on, the scientific community pretty roundly showed that the tobacco companies were fudging their science. In contrast, the studies that conclude there is no link between thimerosal and autism come from numerous sources, many of which have no ties to the pharmaceutical industry (e.g., other world government organizations, researchers at universities and hospitals both in the U.S. and around the world).

    * Toward the end of the video, RFK Jr. invokes “conspiracy think”. In other words, he says that the government and pharmaceutical companies know that thimerosal is bad and are trying to cover it up, going so far as to “poison” their own kids. There are a couple problems with this. First of all, there are a lot of people that would need to be involved. How does one keep all of them quiet? For something that has been around since the ’30s, certainly someone would have come forward from the inside and blown the whistle. Second, such a conspiracy would have to involve not just the U.S. companies and government, but companies, governments and independent researchers worldwide. Third, while there might be some people willing to poison their own kids to save their own hide, I’d say that’s a rarity.

    Keep in mind several things. RFK Jr. has an agenda. That agenda includes selling his book, which was mentioned a couple times in that clip, as well as garnering web traffic to his online articles. Anti-vaxers love to claim that profit motivations corrupt the pharmaceutical companies, yet such motivations are blindly accepted as okay among their own leaders.

    Lisa, please click on my name to read a little bit more about vaccines in general, as well as spurious claims about MMR and thimerosal. I’m willing to be shown evidence that I am wrong, so if you have any, go ahead and let me know.

  203. April 29, 2009 – Researchers find common genetic variations in autistic people – Los Angeles Times

  204. @Lars

    That’s so cool! Thanks for posting that. Here’s the link for those who want to read the article: latimes.com/features/health/la-na-autism29-2009apr29,0,4441598.story (copy into your browser address bar, with www at the beginning)

  205. HCN

    The Absolutely Awesome Todd W. said “Lisa, please click on my name to read a little bit more about vaccines in general, as well as spurious claims about MMR and thimerosal. I’m willing to be shown evidence that I am wrong, so if you have any, go ahead and let me know.”

    For a while I have been asking these folks to tell give me the actual factual evidence that I can find at my local medical school library that the MMR is worse than measles, mumps and rubella or that DTaP is worse than diphtheria, tetanus or pertussis.

    I have not yet got a satisfactory answer.

    I have been given links to silly websites like John “satanic ley line burned my bum” Scudamore’s whale.to site, or the NVIC, which is more accurately called the National Vaccine MISinformation Corporation (by the way, on their board of directors is Clifford Shoemaker, the idiot lawyer who subpoenaed Kathleen Seidel of the Neurodiversity website — apparently with the notion that her husband controls wikipedia! … see neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/157/ , “I understand that his license to practice medicine has been challenged by a friend of Ms. Seidel, apparently the wife of a drug company executive based upon allegations of misconduct found on Ms. Seidel’s web site. Ms. Seidel and her husband have apparently obtained control of Wikipedia, a free internet encyclopedia, and have used that to injure Dr. Geier’s reputation.” ) .

    They get very upset if I ask for any real proof, or explain that Wakefield’s “study” of about a dozen kids was not as compelling as epidemiological studies done in several countries covering hundreds of thousands of children.

  206. magic_8

    @The_Patriot

    from the same report that you quote
    (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5201a1.htm)

    just a few lines down from the snippet that you quoted regarding adverse effects and SIDS:

    “Carefully controlled epidemiologic studies consistently have not found any association between SIDS and vaccines (16–19).”

  207. magic_8

    @The_Patriot

    i should have read even further down the same paragraph regarding linking adverse vaccine reactions and death:

    “FDA and the Institute of Medicine (IOM) reviewed 206 deaths reported to VAERS during 1990–1991. Only one death was believed to have resulted from a vaccine.”

    CDC considered 1.9 billion, not million but billion, doses between 1991 and 2001. in two years the FDA and IOM found one death from the millions of doses administered in their timeframe.

  208. Cassandra15

    There seems to be a significant number of people who simply look for conspiracies everywhere. I don’t know if it is due to TV shows or recent movies about conspiracies, or some other cause, but it is frightening the number of people who don’t trust government, or large corporations, or financial institutions. It is true that somehow, in today’s society, the truth has less value, and there ARE people out there who have manipulated stories to their own advantage. However, to be so paranoid that you start doubting something as important as the importance of immunizing your children, WITHOUT FIRST CAREFULLY CHECKING MULTIPLE SOURCES FOR THE CORRECT SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION, a parent has to be willfully ignorant. It’s a shame that the children are the ones that end up paying the price for their parent’s irresponsible behavior.

  209. Alex

    Unfortunately, this same show seems to be doing a reverse version of this report this week.

    Well at least that’s what the ads made it out to be.

  210. DC

    Ok I agree with the fact that kids need to be vaccinated. I have two (soon three) kids and they have both been fully vaccinated. Now, with my first I grilled the doctor about vaccines. I am pretty direct and the attitude I found with most doctors is that they just want you to accept what they say without question. Some even looked at me, almost surprised that I was asking them questions about a vaccine and if it would harm my child.

    I have switched pediatricians four times because I did not like their answers(or lack thereof).

    The first pediatrician we went to I simply asked him:

    “Are these vaccines safe?”

    He said, “Yes, we give them to lots of kids”.

    Sorry, not a good enough answer for me. So we want to another pediatrician, I asked her the same question, she said:

    “I am not aware of any issues with these vaccines”.

    Sorry, again, to vague for me.

    The third pediatrician answered: “So you don’t want the vaccine? It’s up to you, I dont care.”.

    And finally the fourth: “Let’s discuss possible side effects”.

    Ok, now we are getting somewhere. She showed me some figures and evidence that supports that vaccines are not the cause of Autism. That’s fine, but when I asked her “How do they test these vaccines?” She said, “We test them on a small number of the population”. I replied, “Kids?” She said, “Yes.” I asked her, “Who decides which kids you test this vaccine on?”. She said, “We ask for consent”. I’m still not sure I fully believe that, but for now my kids are fine.

    I still will not allow them to have any shot that has mercury in it. Think about it, would you inject yourself with mercury? I wouldn’t. Thankfully this is only the flu shot according to my pediatrician. So they don’t get that shot. They both are very healthy boys. Just wanted to add my two cents to this.

    It is hard being a parent. Your job is protect your child, and it comes down to who you trust. The doctors, as I mentioned, didn’t seem to want to volunteer any information. I can see where this would make a number of parents suspicious.

  211. Sande Harsey

    Two more anecdotes: IIN 1963 I took my three month old son for his first set on immunizations. A DPT was among them. His twenty-one month old brother received boosters at the same time. Two weeks later my baby was in hospital with whooping cough, and his older brother was diagnosed with a milder case of the disease; he was treated at home. The state and county health departments each sent representatives to interview me. I had never heard of anyone actually contracting the disease at that time, but a friend had six children and her youngest was the same age as my baby (the oldest was about eight years old) and several of them had ‘summer colds’. Was live virus in use for DPT’s at that time? Were my children infected by my friends children? I will never know. I just thank God that both boys survived and that correct medical treatment was available for the baby. And the boys and my younger two children were immunized next only when it became mandatory so that they start school.

    My mother saw to it that we children had available immunizations on schedule. There weren’t many. I had chicken pox, scarlett fever, mumps, red, black, and German measles that I recall. And we kids were not always taken to the Dr. with these childhood illnesses, either, as that generation of mothers and grandmothers were fair diagnosticians relating to these childhood illnesses. Mother correctly diagnosed my mumps when my jaws locked while attempting to eat a dill pickle! LOL. One of the immunizations was for smallpox, and every child had to have proof of one when entering school, at any grade. I had all the smallpox immunizations at the start of each school year beginning in kindergarten. They just never ‘took’, I never had a pox. Mother was careful about keeping the records of each effort to prove to the school I had had not one, but several, innoculations. And each year, the school would insist that I receive another. Finally, when I was twelve, I was given a much larger dose of the vac, and it ‘took’. I recall feeling grateful it finally had, because my arm hurt so bad, and I was so sick, and I kept thinking how awful it would be to have these sores all over my body.

    Today I come down firmly on the side of vacccinations. I wouldn’t wish on any child the illnesses of measles, mumps, chicken pox, scarlett fever that my generation took for granted, or any parent the fear and anxiety of having a child hospitalized with an easily prevented illness. And I sure don’t want anyone to have those pox all over his or her body!

  212. Dana K

    I almost died and suffered for years from the side effects of a Hepatitis B Vaccine. I still chose to vaccinate my son for all of the other diseases, but not Hep B. Not worth it in my eyes.

  213. Hedgehog

    Let’s all remember that refusing to vaccinate your child is, at its core, free-riding in the hope that everyone else has vaccinated. This is the whole point of the statement “Bear in mind that if the current trend continues, unvaccinated children will not be protected by herd immunity much longer.” Once you stray outside of a vaccinated herd, your risk increases dramatically. Letting strangers into the herd increases your risk, as well.

    Here’s my anecdote: My daughter, living with me, recently gave birth to my beautiful grand-daughter. For the first few months, we kept her away from everyone, including relatives. I have no idea whether that improved her odds until she could start getting her vaccinations. But, at least “her herd” had been vaccinated.

  214. @DC

    That’s fine, but when I asked her “How do they test these vaccines?” She said, “We test them on a small number of the population”. I replied, “Kids?” She said, “Yes.” I asked her, “Who decides which kids you test this vaccine on?”. She said, “We ask for consent”. I’m still not sure I fully believe that, but for now my kids are fine.

    Just wanted to address this point. Every drug that is marketed in the U.S. must be approved by the FDA before it can be marketed for the first time. Part of this approval process is conducting clinical trials. For drugs being given to children, those trials must include pediatric patients to make sure that the dosing is correct, and that is even split down by ages, since children’s bodies change so rapidly. The trials fall into several phases. Phase I is pharmacokinetic/pharmacodynamic studies, typically in small groups of healthy subjects, to make sure that the drug doesn’t have any unduly serious risks of injury. Phase II trials include more subjects from the target population and serve as a proof of concept, to determine whether the drug is likely to be effective, while continuing to collect safety data. Phase III is the point where even more subjects are enrolled to prove that the drug is effective, compared to placebo if possible or to a comparator drug already on the market to ensure that it is at least no worse than what is already available. If the Phase III trial shows that the drug is effective and safe (i.e., the benefits outweigh the risks), then the drug is approved. Once approved by FDA at this point, the drug can be marketed for public use. Many companies and independent researchers will also conduct Phase IV, or post-market, surveillance studies. These primarily focus on safety data to catch those rare reactions that only occur in populations much larger than the numbers used for the pre-market trials. In all of these trials, the ethical guidelines set out in the Declaration of Helsinki () must be followed.

    I hope that can reassure you regarding the tests that are done before a product can be used within the general populace.

    I still will not allow them to have any shot that has mercury in it. Think about it, would you inject yourself with mercury? I wouldn’t. Thankfully this is only the flu shot according to my pediatrician. So they don’t get that shot.

    There are thimerosal-free versions of the flu vaccine available. They may cost a little more, but you can get them. Also, take a look at the information available by clicking on my name and read the section on thimerosal.

    And in parting, great for you that you asked questions and became informed!

  215. diana

    People who are anti-vax are selfish. They would rather see thousands of children die of easily prevented diseases, so that they can feel like part of some intellectually superior group who thinks that vaccines cause autism. How many times does it have to be proven otherwise? My Mom, who is in her 70s, spent several agonizing weeks in the hospital with whooping cough last year, after months of being sick and no one realizing why. It nearly killed her. Turns out there was an epidemic of whooping cough in her area, hitting elementary school kids, and seniors. Though she’d had a vaccine years and years ago, it was obviously not current enough to fight it. She nearly died. If anyone is not convinced by the video they’ve posted here, then they need to go through what my family did, to really see what something that can be prevented, like whooping cough, can do to a person.

  216. moose

    forget global warming people…the real problem is global cooling, and that is a fact jack. Better by a good pair of woolies!

  217. Hedgehog

    Todd W. says: “Just wanted to address this point. Every drug that is marketed in the U.S. must be approved by the FDA before it can be marketed for the first time.”

    Todd, is this specifically true for each flu strain, or just a type acceptance for the carrier? I can’t imagine them going through all this for the specific killed virus in each year’s flu shot.

  218. Todd W.

    @Hedgehog

    Todd, is this specifically true for each flu strain, or just a type acceptance for the carrier? I can’t imagine them going through all this for the specific killed virus in each year’s flu shot.

    It’s for the first time they market a product. Once it’s approved, they can make small changes without going through the whole Phase I-III process again, but they still need to provide random samples from each lot to FDA.

  219. General J.D.Ripper

    So have any of you Mercury Loving Koolaide drinkers noticed the ridiculously large
    incidence of Autism ? Seems that when I was growing up you had none of this— this is a recent occurrence that corresponds to the world’s increasing use of vaccines . Also when I was growing up , stuff like the Chicken Pox and Measles were a right of passage and I’d say far less were killed or maimed by these diseases than are by the vaccinations against them .
    Would Big Pharma kill your Children for profit ? Come on people think — read some history —of course they would .
    And have you noticed that a lot of the notable leaders at the Charitable Foundations who fund and lobby for the development of new vaccines also seem to be the most vocal advocates of population reduction and control ?
    Googgle the word Eugenics and follow all the links —you will be amazed , if you do some research , at the interconnectedness of it all.
    Wasting my breath , I’m sure , in replying to this post — obviously paid for by Big Pharma/Chemo
    Ask the Queen of England ,what medical practices she and her family employ and she will
    tell you ” Homeopathy” — go figure — maybe she is in a position to know how the world works .
    Go drink some Fluoridated Water and tell yourself how good this is for you,also — and if you have enough brain power left over , Googgle that one also , and read some history on it .

  220. General J.D.Ripper

    My last vaccination was in 1975 —- I immediately developed Lupus which I have battled with for years . I feel this Autoimmune disease , in my case ,was a result of this . Lupus, in Caucasian Males is very rare . And I am one and was very healthy up to the very moment of vaccination .

  221. @General J.D.Ripper
    Go way up to the top of these comments and read the first comment by Larian.

  222. General J.D.Ripper

    One last thing — My compliments to the Moderators for allowing the above links ,I just posted,to get thru . I feel ,if you read these thoughtfully ,it is a strong testament to what I am saying , and I am a little surprised that they were allowed , seeing the pro-vaccine agenda here.
    Here are my beliefs as to the Autism question — I believe that vaccines can cause immune
    reactions — I mean that is the point to them –right ?
    But I believe we are crossing over the line as far as the quantity of these things we are injecting into young children .This could very well be causing autoimmune reactions that are resulting in Autism .
    Something is causing the increase in Autism , that seems clear . Maybe you might wish to blame that on CO2 also ,but that would be a stretch.
    Smallpox vaccine ? At least in the form I was given in the ’50’s and before, seemed to have a good risk benefit ratio , as did Polio ,Whooping cough ,and Tetanus . Perhaps we should have drawn the line at that point . But now they are seeking to vaccinate for every malady
    known to man . I am sorry if this seems harsh to some ,who would argue that the benefit outweighs the risk, but as I said above — stuff like Mumps,Chicken Pox ,Measles — they were a right of passage when I was a young person ,and maybe even necessary for developing a healthy immune system .
    Might I remind you ,that none of these diseases have gone extinct thru these efforts and just when they think they have ,then somewhere a sample kept at a Bio Lab somewhere
    seems to leek out again .
    Now they want all young adults vaccinated against a virus that may or may not cause
    cervical cancer — this is ridiculous and what is the Benefit/Risk analysis on that one .
    From early reports from parents complaining of the sudden death of their healthy -vibrant
    teenage daughters — I’d say it ain’t looking good .
    Seems to be an agenda in all this ,and I argue that it isn’t a “Pro-Human Health” agenda .
    We are not Gods and we have long since ceased erring on the side of caution with our this stuff —please read the above links ,I posted .

  223. Hedgehog

    General J.D. Ripper says: “Here are my beliefs as to the Autism question — I believe that vaccines can cause immune reactions — I mean that is the point to them –right ?”

    There’s an old saying, General, to the effect that “you’re entitled to your own beliefs, but you’re not entitled to your own facts”. The facts do not support the belief that autism is caused by mercury.

    I suggest you research the word “testimony”, and try to understand why testimonials are so ripe for fallacy. For example, you say: “I am sorry if this seems harsh to some ,who would argue that the benefit outweighs the risk, but as I said above — stuff like Mumps,Chicken Pox ,Measles — they were a right of passage when I was a young person ,and maybe even necessary for developing a healthy immune system .” Yes, Chicken Pox doesn’t USUALLY kill, but it can cause permanent scarring. Mumps CAN kill; especially when an adult gets it. Measles: there are two types of measles, and one of them is called rubella. From Wiki:

    “Infection of the mother by Rubella virus during pregnancy can be serious; if the mother is infected within the first 20 weeks of pregnancy, the child may be born with congenital rubella syndrome (CRS), which entails a range of serious incurable illnesses. Spontaneous abortion occurs in up to 20% of cases.[1]”

    So, as you can see, neither Rubella, Mumps, nor Chicken Pox are benign; and can be quite serious.

    As some of the posters above have indicated, the scientists and mathematicians who study this stuff Really Do know what they’re doing. There is no mass scientific conspiracy to give some sector of the population autism.

  224. Dead Ferrets

    Hedgehog—Did you read his links ?
    If so what does that say to your comments
    “the scientists and mathematicians who study this stuff Really Do know what they’re doing”.
    And I have many proud Chicken Pox Scars — what is your argument again ?
    Here are the links ,he asked you to read — Scary,perhaps sinister stuff —

    http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009/02/27/8560781.html
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Health–Science/Science/Virus-mix-up-by-lab-could-have-resulted-in-pandemic/articleshow/4230882.cms
    http://money.aol.com/article/baxter-international-working-on-swine/446689?icid=sphere_searchsphere_news

  225. GeneralJ.D.Ripper

    Now wait a moment Hedgehog—- Am I wrong in saying that the point of vaccines is to cause an immune response ? Or is this one of those facts I am not entitled to .
    My position is that “Mercury” is not good for you at any age (google Mercury –Hg– “Mad as a Hatter” —etc.) but will not lay the blame on Autism solely on it’s use .
    I believe that the cause lies along that of an auto-immune response .
    Mercury probably aids in this process,where present in vaccines .
    We are overly manipulating our immune systems in my opinion .
    My personal experience has convinced me of the potential of my hypothesis ,
    and where I am at with it is that I will take no vaccinations ,whatsoever ,under any circumstances . As to whether I would give vaccinations to my children—-yes — but in moderation, as for the disease being protected against ,and with considerable caution .
    Further more , my personal experience over 55 years ,in which half of it was spent with an auto-immune disease, is that scientists and doctors are often some of the biggest idiots on the planet.
    Please read the links I gave from a couple of posts up and I will wait for your defense
    of the establishment . .

  226. General J.D.Ripper

    Now wait a moment Hedgehog—- Am I wrong in saying that the point of vaccines is to cause an immune response ? Or is this one of those facts I am not entitled to .
    My position is that “Mercury” is not good for you at any age (google Mercury –Hg– “Mad as a Hatter” —etc.) but will not lay the blame on Autism solely on it’s use .
    I believe that the cause lies along that of an auto-immune response .
    Mercury probably aids in this process,where present in vaccines .
    We are overly manipulating our immune systems in my opinion .
    My personal experience has convinced me of the potential of my hypothesis ,
    and where I am at with it is that I will take no vaccinations ,whatsoever ,under any circumstances . As to whether I would give vaccinations to my children—-yes — but in moderation, as for the disease being protected against ,and with considerable caution .
    Further more , my personal experience over 55 years ,in which half of it was spent with an auto-immune disease, is that scientists and doctors are often some of the biggest idiots on the planet. Not always ,but often . It is the “often” ones to which we must be on guard.
    Please read the links I gave from a couple of posts up and I will wait for your defense
    of the establishment . .

  227. Torbjörn Larsson, OM

    Now wait a moment Hedgehog—- Am I wrong in saying that the point of vaccines is to cause an immune response ? Or is this one of those facts I am not entitled to .

    What Hedgehog is saying – rightly so – is that the working mechanism of vaccines has no bearing on the tested fact that vaccines has no correlation with autism. Those facts are readily available. Study them instead of posting about irrelevancies.

    Btw, I see that you are referring to an auto-immune response. On this blog there are several comments, perhaps also references to the effect that early and repeated small provocations of a child’s immune system lowers the incidence of auto-immune disease.

    I honestly don’t know if vaccines would contribute to such a lowering, as the number and amount of provocations is far less than a child naturally meet during a single day, where the number of antigens easily can count to hundreds or thousands, say from the numerous new bacterias that their parents import from outside. But they certainly wouldn’t harm.

  228. Mark Hansen

    I think the argument isn’t likely to progress very far when an initial post starts with “So have any of you Mercury Loving Koolaide drinkers …”.

  229. General J.D.Ripper

    But I did get your attention with “So have any of you Mercury Loving Koolaide drinkers …”.
    Now would someone please address the Articles from News reports that I have posted the links for .
    And I would be interested in anyone of my esteemed detractors opinions on the causes of the Epidemic of Autism at present .
    I am not very open to the opinion that the incidence of has been constant ,but that better diagnosis has increased the reported cases .
    I have lived a few years and I know what I am witnessing — Autism is at ridiculous levels
    at this time .
    But please –give me your opinion of the recent Shenanigans that went down in Eastern Europe with your Vaccine companies per my referred links .

  230. General J.D.Ripper

    Torbjörn Larsson, OM Says:
    “Btw, I see that you are referring to an auto-immune response. On this blog there are several comments, perhaps also references to the effect that early and repeated small provocations of a child’s immune system lowers the incidence of auto-immune disease.”
    —– I wouldn’t doubt that ,but are we dealing with “Small Provocations” at this time versus,say,30 years ago. I would say , no.
    My argument is that we have crossed the line with our mass inoculation approach over the decades and we need to return to a cautious , less hysterical , more sane approach .
    Our children are receiving vaccine overload .
    And I do suspect there is an agenda to this — be it the more benign “Profit” scenario ,
    or something entirely more foreboding .
    I will not trouble you anymore with my opinions ,but I must leave you, asking once again, “What about this sort of **** ” ? ——-
    http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009/02/27/8560781.html
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Health–Science/Science/Virus-mix-up-by-lab-could-have-resulted-in-pandemic/articleshow/4230882.cms
    http://money.aol.com/article/baxter-international-working-on-swine/446689?icid=sphere_searchsphere_news

  231. Mark Hansen

    Yes, you got my attention. It was the laughable “Before you label us as ” Pro-Disease” that followed it some posts later that really showed you up as a hypocrite. You expect from others what you do not adhere to.

  232. Mark Hansen

    Your links show that Baxter had a problem, it was detected and corrected before it had a chance to be used on people. Now they are researching a swine flu vaccine. That is surprising; who would have thought that a company that produces vaccines would get involved in researching a vaccine?

  233. Hedgehog

    OK, so I looked at the links, and didn’t find anything of any import. Baxter had a production problem; what does that have to do with the scientific method? They are now researching the swine flu; what does that have to do with your anti-vax position? I don’t see it. The one thing I DO see is the usual attempt to damn the scientific method, in general, due to isolated production problems or when new information becomes available. It’s a common technique, usually limited to anti-evolutionists, and have no validity at all.

    As to the idea that there is an “Epidemic of Autism”; let’s get this one out of the way. There IS NO epidemic of autism. We have more cases than we would have expected, but there is the probability that 1) autism has existed all along, but was either kept behind doors or the kids were burned as witches, as well as 2) we simply live with a LOT more pollution than we did historically. It’s only been since, what?, the 80s that we completely got rid of leaded gasoline? Perhaps you should look up the phrase “congenital defect” and see where that takes you. You would also want to look into what genes have been found to be related to autism. HINT: there is no appreciable change to your genes after you’re born. However, changes to the genes in your sperm or eggs can have a devastating affect on your offspring. At this point, the scientific method of inquiry does not point a finger at mercury.

  234. @General J.D.Ripper
    Ah but have you read the link way up the top from Larian? Much of the mis-information you’ve been spouting is addressed there.

  235. General J.D.Ripper

    # Shane Says:
    May 2nd, 2009 at 8:07 pm

    @General J.D.Ripper
    Ah but have you read the link way up the top from Larian? Much of the mis-information you’ve been spouting is addressed there.
    —– of course I went to Larian’s link before you suggested or I even put in my 2 cents here .
    And we might have a disagreement as to what is mis-information .
    You guys take your chances with Baxter’s “Production Problems” — just please don’t be trying to pass any laws that make it required that I share your trust in this . We will not have a problem as long as I am allowed, in your view . to “foolishly” disregard my health .
    Things will be great as long as you have your free will to as you wish with your body and I have the same right .
    Not in the mood for Koolaide today ,thank you . Good day to you .

  236. Mar

    >No anti-vaxxers have dared to chip in to the comments on this post yet. >Very Good.

    An unvaccinated child dies from Whooping Cough, its a big deal. A vaccinated child dies from a reaction, then it’s an acceptable risk because most people don’t have a reaction. WTF!!!! Just like most people won’t die from Whooping Cough.

    Also if you children are vaccinated, then why are you worried if unvaccinated children pose a danger. That means that deep inside you are not really sure the vaccine really do work and are worried about unvaccinated kids.

    Baxter “accidently” release live bird flu virus in vaccines shipped to the Ukraine. How can these accidents happen when these labs have very strict controls to prevent such accidents. Now we are suppose to trust them with the Swine Flu vaccine. Merck labs was caught putting live SV40 cancer viruses in the polio vaccine. How is this accidental.

    In the 1976 swine flu scare, more people died from the vaccines than the flu. Do the research

    Gardasil has already killed some girls by triggering an autoimmune reactions. And it doesn’t even protect against all strains of the viruses it’s suppose to combat. So is this an acceptable risk, unless it happens to be your daughter. A healthy immune system will combat these viruses.

    Here’s reality, vaccines are part of an overall eugenics agenda. Research Eugenics.

    Do research, and then decide, it’s that simple. But like most people, they will believe 2+2=5 because the government tells me so.

  237. General J.D.Ripper

    And to dismiss this thing with Baxter as just “Production Problems” is leaning toward the obscene in my view , what with the very possible outcome of this had it not been for those dead Ferrets . How could Pure unattenuated Avian Flu be accidentally sent to combine with normal vaccine ? Use your scientific method to describe the very possible outcome of this—- is there a better way to breed a strain of this Flu ,that has a human mortality rate upwards to 90%,
    into a more “Human to Human contagion ? How can you dismiss this so lightly? This was almost an atrocity .
    But some will still sit back arrogantly and call reasoning people such as I , uninformed, ignorant ,and paranoid .
    Let me be the first to tell you that us “Ignorant folk” are becoming very aware of what the game really is . And as long as there are blogger s who can dismiss this event as normal—
    I will not even consider changing my view . There should have been prosecutions over this .

  238. Mark Hansen

    If Baxter were aiming for a bio-weapon form of avian flu, why would they let that vaccine be tested? Why not substitute an uncontaminated batch? Or is this form of accident more palatable from a conspiracy point of view?

    However, I was probably right from the start:
    I will not even consider changing my view .” = Never let the facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.

  239. @General J.D.Ripper
    Not in the mood for Koolaide today
    and
    I will not even consider changing my view
    So, why are you here?

  240. General J.D.Ripper

    I am here to help warn the people of the world of the incompetence existing in this process.
    How can you describe this as anything but incompetence? And incompetence is a “best case scenario” .
    And to ask ,what to me is an obvious question — Should we allow people of this incompetence
    level to have possession and use of viral material that is a Bio-hazard that is supposed to be contained at the highest level possible , but seems to have been accidentally shipped and and labeled for use as an additive in vaccine for human consumption.
    Give it up guys — you can’t dismiss this as capriciously as you are doing .
    And the more you continue to do so , the more you strengthen my case .
    And the ” conspiracy point of viewl” question would be — what if this was not supposed to be discovered ? What if someone who was not supposed to be doing his job , insisted on doing it anyway ?
    But I will not reduce this issue to a plot to develop a Bio-weapon” and release it on humanity.
    Let’s just address the “Incompetence” question .
    I guess you people wouldn’t even consider that some sort of investigation should be launched into this matter?
    What the heck ? These are Scientist — we should all carry vials full of Lethal microbes
    around in our pockets at our whim . No accountability — that sort of thing is for the ignorant uninformed paranoid masses .We are the elite –we are above it all .
    If I didn’t know better –I might think that some of you,commenting here , are
    some type of paid Pharma Trolls .
    I patiently waited for someone to give me a concerned alarmed response and reassure
    that this matter was being addressed at the highest levels — but instead ,I am met with arrogance

  241. General J.D.Ripper

    @Mark Hansen
    “However, I was probably right from the start:
    “I will not even consider changing my view .” = Never let the facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.”

    Mark,
    I would really like to feel I am having a discussion with a real person here .
    Reducing everything to my words taken out of context and falling back on the old saw
    “Never let the facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.”— that sounds more along
    the techniques prescribed in some sort of manual .
    What happened with Baxter ,is not a “Conspiracy Theory” — I could post far more
    Mainstream News articles on this — even those from the original language sources from Europe .

  242. Todd W.

    @General J.D. Ripper and Mar

    Re: Baxter’s contaminated flu vaccine.

    Yes, this incidence was an example of human error and a fault with the quality control processes at one of Baxter’s facilities (keep in mind they have many others that did not have this problem). The contamination was discovered by one of Baxter’s distributors before the flu could be given to any people, so that part of the QC process worked and prevented a tragedy. Yes, that Baxter facility should be investigated to find out where the problem occurred. If you take a look in the “Vaccine Safety” thread, I have addressed the Baxter issue several times in my exchanges with another “vaccines are evil” poster. The problems at one facility do not damn the entire company, nor does it damn vaccines as a whole.

    Also in the “Vaccine Safety” thread, I discuss the 1976 flu vaccine problem. It’s not as simple as you seem to think it is. There were a number of factors at play, including public pressure for a vaccine produced really fast.

    on Gardasil, thus far, according to the CDC:

    As of December 31, 2008, there have been 32 U.S. reports of death among females who have received the vaccine. There was no common pattern to the deaths that would suggest that they were caused by the vaccine.

    The HPV strains in the vaccine actually do cause cervical cancer in women, and represent the more common variants of the virus.

    Regarding the SV40 virus, at the time, no one knew about the virus. When it was discovered that the polio vaccines were tainted with it, manufacturers tooks steps to ensure that the vaccines were free of the contaminating virus.

    And a quick note on efficacy. Vaccines have a pretty high efficacy rate, typically around 90% or higher. There are some individuals, however, for whom the vaccine does not work. Even though they are “vaccinated”, therefore, they are still susceptible to contracting an illness. And the concern is not just for them. Those who choose not to receive vaccination can infect people who have not been vaccinated, either, due to age (e.g., infants too young to be vaccinated), allergies (e.g., egg allergies prevent receiving certain vaccines) or compromised immune system (e.g., AIDS, transplant recipients on immunosuppressants, etc.).

    If you think that vaccines are somehow causing autism, then provide the scientific evidence to support your claim. Promoting a reduction in vaccines based on “feelings” and beliefs is not only irresponsible, but unethical. Thus far, the evidence shows no connection to vaccines or to mercury.

  243. General J.D.Ripper

    Thank you for a more rational attempt at a response to my questions — and I will check out what you have to say . Now regarding what you said—-
    “Regarding the SV40 virus, at the time, no one knew about the virus. When it was discovered that the polio vaccines were tainted with it, manufacturers tooks steps to ensure that the vaccines were free of the contaminating virus.”
    I ask: “what else do we not know about ?
    If you read my posts ,that are being labeled as solely Anti-vaccine –Pro-Disease ,
    you will find that I am arguing in favor of Caution and Moderation — and yes even if that means allowing some children to get a survivable Pox .
    But yes — I am deeply suspicious of these “goings -on “— particularly the timing of this in association with the Current and apparently solely hysterical H1N1 mystery Flu Pandemic .
    And the 32 (your number) reported deaths of people taking the HPV vaccine . assuming that these deaths were a result of having been injected with the vaccine , if they had been your teenage daughters— would not you have prefered her to have lived into Adulthood
    ,even if she developed Cancer as a result of this virus later in life . Cancer can be detected
    early and treated sucessfully in these cases ,sometimes .
    I consider myself capable of rational and logical thinking —and I remain suspicious of this
    “health” agenda .
    Remember ,I am of an age where your parents would not let you out in public in summer because of Polio —- and I am not ,by any means ,a knee jerk Anti-Vax type.
    But I also know, when these miracles where being done for us in the 50’s—-this was a different age and different approaches to vaccines ,also .
    If you guys have lost the people’s trust — just assuming an elitist attitude will not regain that trust — and using your well funded political muscle to have laws passed requiring our
    unquestioning obedience — this will back fire on you , I assure you .

  244. Todd W.

    @General J.D. Ripper

    I ask: “what else do we not know about ?

    Science has come a long way since the issues with the simian virus. While there might be something that we have not discovered yet, the likelihood is pretty darn low. Screening techniques have improved dramatically, as has our understanding of microbiology and so forth. Added to this, manufacturers are always trying to improve their products, to make them safer and more effective, which is good business sense. If a company can make something that is better and safer than a competitor, they get more business, more profits. So, it really is in the company’s best interests to make quality products.

    you will find that I am arguing in favor of Caution and Moderation — and yes even if that means allowing some children to get a survivable Pox.

    Caution is all well and good when it comes from a well-reasoned approach. That means not only looking at the evidence, but accepting what the evidence says. Currently, there are no properly controlled studies showing that vaccines are linked to autism, nor that vaccines have a higher risk than the diseases they prevent. And, while chicken pox is survivable, it can cause bacterial skin infections, swelling of the brain and pneumonia. If a person is not vaccinated and never exposed to the virus as a child, they will be at increased risk for serious complications later in life. Furthermore, even if they do get varicella as a child, they are at risk for shingles as an adult, a very painful and disfiguring condition. And that goes for most of the vaccine-preventable diseases; while death is less likely, serious injury can happen, and is indeed more likely from the disease than from the vaccine.

    assuming that these deaths were a result of having been injected with the vaccine , if they had been your teenage daughters— would not you have prefered her to have lived into Adulthood, even if she developed Cancer as a result of this virus later in life. Cancer can be detected early and treated sucessfully in these cases, sometimes .

    If the vaccine was responsible, then I would want a safer product before using it. However, as noted, there is no evidence that the vaccine was responsible. If I had a child who died after receiving a vaccint, what I would really want is to know what the real evidence is. In other words, I’d want to know if there was some other factor that caused the death, something that I, in my emotional state, discounted or ignored. And, if there was something else, I hope that I would be rational enough to accept that evidence, rather than blaming what I feel is responsible.

    Here is a quick note regarding cervical cancer. This is from the National Cancer Institute (cancer.gov/cancertopics/types/cervical/)

    Estimated new cases and deaths from cervical (uterine cervix) cancer in the United States in 2008:

    New cases: 11,070
    Deaths: 3,870

    Cervical cancer is one of those cancers that does not show symptoms until it is pretty far along. Personally, I think that preventing not just the risk of death, but also the medical expenses of treating and fighting the cancer, as well as the emotional toll, then I think that’s pretty good. It helps not only the patient, but decreases the toll on hospitals, insurers, and so on.

    But I also know, when these miracles where being done for us in the 50’s—-this was a different age and different approaches to vaccines ,also.

    Vaccines in that era were much cruder than today. Many left sizable scars, the risk of adverse reactions was higher, and we hadn’t discovered how to create vaccines for many diseases.

  245. General J.D.Ripper

    If you are a subject of the Queen ,as are many in this world , ask yourself —
    Why does she practice Homeopathy,exclusively ?
    Some of us disagree with your entire paradigm — end of discussion .
    We have a different approach to health care , which should be a personal choice .
    Personally speaking — I have suffered horribly at the Hands of this approach and I strongly feel that my avoidance of this approach is all that has prolonged my life .
    If you were to pass a law stating that I should be a good boy and take whatever medication is dictated by the state — well ,I would have to fight you —wouldn’t have anything to lose .
    You are talking to someone who was effected for life by a vaccination .
    I have no empirical proof of this other than the fact that I was healthy and then was vaccinated ,becoming immediately and very ill for months– this was finally diagnosed as
    Lupus after lots of denial from the medical community — but lots of lab test to support
    it happening from the time of vaccination . To this day , doctors do not wish to believe
    I have Lupus — 35 years later — based on the fact that I am a White Male — so periodically,
    due to some flare up , I am refereed to a new specialist , who doubts my condition also — but always after the latest round of the newest tests , I always turn up as positive as anyone can be for this disorder — absolutely confirmed diagnosis . You try provoking my immune system and it quickly becomes unpleasant .And this has been put to the test ,many times .
    But as I said –these health care choices are based on my own health experiences .it is not for you to dictate to me nor me to dictate to you.
    So if it is your agenda, as the lead article seems to point out ,that I am some form of Health Threat — well ,you have a fight on your hands .
    Medicine is not an “Exact Science” — check into it .
    And getting back to that “Conspiracy Rant”—- Hitler started out singling out the sickly
    for culling in his Master Race Agenda — they were a liability to good Aryan society , just as I
    guess us Folks that do not wish your medicine are a menace to your modern society .
    And ,if you were to read the credits for “Mein Kampf” you will find an acknowledgment to the American Eugenics Society which also was funded by the same foundations that lobby and fund this current vaccine agenda .

  246. Mark Hansen

    Gen. Ripper, I was going to post a reply addressing your posts but as I would (apparently) be taking everything out of context, I have decided it’s not worth it. Todd is far more patient.

    Todd, you have my heartfelt sympathy for your Sisyphean task.

  247. @General J.D. Ripper

    If you are a subject of the Queen ,as are many in this world , ask yourself —
    Why does she practice Homeopathy,exclusively ?

    Because she is ill-informed and not educated in medical matters or science, apparently. Homeopathy works great as a placebo, but it has no real effect on the body. If there were actually any truth to it, then not only medicine, but chemistry and physics would be turned on their heads. Scientists would be all over it trying to figure it out. However, not one properly designed study has shown any effect beyond placebo.

    If you were to pass a law stating that I should be a good boy and take whatever medication is dictated by the state — well ,I would have to fight you —wouldn’t have anything to lose .

    I would fight that law, too. No one here is calling for across the board, no-exceptions mandatory vaccination. As each person is individual, and some have adverse reactions to vaccines or conditions that preclude vaccination, such a law is doomed to failure. What we are saying, however, is that unless a person has a valid medical reason for refusing to vaccinate, then they are being unethical and putting others at needless risk.

    You are talking to someone who was effected for life by a vaccination.

    May I ask a few questions so I know a little more about your background? Before you showed signs of lupus, had you been taking any medications regularly? Have you ever been infected with the Epstein-Barr virus? What kind of work did you do?

    Since none of us in this thread really knows your history, we can’t really argue this point with you.

    But as I said –these health care choices are based on my own health experiences .it is not for you to dictate to me nor me to dictate to you.

    Not trying to dictate what anyone must do, rather what they should do, as well as what they should consider. The choice of whether to vaccinate or not is ultimately a personal decision, but it is one that has ramifications for other people, as well, much like choosing to drive a long distance even though you’re sleepy.

    And getting back to that “Conspiracy Rant”—- Hitler started out singling out the sickly for culling in his Master Race Agenda — they were a liability to good Aryan society , just as I guess us Folks that do not wish your medicine are a menace to your modern society. And ,if you were to read the credits for “Mein Kampf” you will find an acknowledgment to the American Eugenics Society which also was funded by the same foundations that lobby and fund this current vaccine agenda .

    Bringing up Hitler does absolutely nothing for your argument, and, in fact, only helps you lose your position. He was an awful person. Eugenics is an idiotic idea. What’s your point?

    @Mark Hansen

    Eventually I’ll get the boulder to the top.

  248. @ Mar

    > An unvaccinated child dies from Whooping Cough, its a big deal. A
    > vaccinated child dies from a reaction, then it’s an acceptable risk
    > because most people don’t have a reaction. WTF!!!! Just like most
    >people won’t die from Whooping Cough.

    I’ll address this, if I may.

    All things being equal, this is a legitimate criticism. However, all things are not equal. Yes, there are some vaccines to which some people *do* have adverse reactions. This is both exceedingly rare, and in many cases avoidable with a medical history.

    A proper risk analysis does in fact take into account the negative results of your decision making process. A particular disease may have a fatality rate of 1 in 1,000 cases, and may have a general occurrence rate of 22% of the population in a ten year period. With ~360 million people in the U.S., that means that 79,200 people will die from the disease in a 10 year period (for the purposes of this analysis, we’ll assume that other side effects are inconsequential, even though they are very rarely so).

    Now let us say that the vaccine has a adverse reaction rate of 1 or 2 in 1,000,000 doses (this is the fatality rate for the smallpox vaccine – it’s available at the CDC website). Here we can see that if we did in fact have a mandatory vaccination program for smallpox (we don’t, but let’s assume that we did), we would be killing somewhere between 360 and 720 people outright if we forced-vaccinated the entire country.

    Since smallpox has been virtually eradicated, we don’t have it on the vaccination schedule any more, precisely because it is (relatively speaking in comparison to all vaccinations that I’ve looked at directly myself) a risky vaccination.

    However, let’s say that our hypothetical disease followed smallpox-like fatality rates for the vaccination, but my proposed 1 in 1,000 fatality rate. We’re comparing killing about 500 people by action compared to allowing 72,000 to die by inaction, in a ten year period.

    For those people who would die, should a mandatory vaccination program be enforced, wow, I agree that would suck. However, it’s plainly obvious that the choice to vaccinate against such a disease would be the right choice… in fact, I think you would find a great many number of people who would regard this as close (or over) the margin of trade-off where they’d be willing to demand that the shots be required. I myself would not be so quick to jump on that bandwagon, but while I wouldn’t advocate forcing people to accept the shot, I’d feel well within my place to criticize them heavily for failing to do so without something more ironclad an objection than, “It might be dangerous”.

    Some people on these threads have brought up the Hep B vaccine. Why give Hep B vaccines to children, they ask. Well, the Hep B vaccine has been given to 100 million people, and nobody has died from it. But, those people argue, Hepatitis B is usually spread when blood, semen, or another body fluid from a person infected with the hepatitis B virus enters the body of someone who is not infected. (again, CDC website)… and that’s just not going to happen to *my* baby. How do you know? Kids fall down, they bleed. They bleed on each other. They get abused. They get vomited on. They go to the emergency room, where they’re much more likely to be exposed to Hep B than they might otherwise be. If Hep B has no fatal reactions out of 100,000,000 million doses, that means that it’s *staggeringly* unlikely to occur; with that many trials and no negative result, the actual incidence even if it *can* produce a fatal result is higher than that.

    There aren’t 100 million children in the U.S., but there *are* children with Hep B, and they didn’t all get it from needles or from their mother. So it’s clearly a bad tradeoff to pass on the Hep B vaccine, too.

  249. Ray C.

    Is “Gen. J.D. Ripper” a troll, or has he just not seen Dr. Strangelove? Jack D. Ripper is the very model of a woomonger, fluoridation of water being the bug up his bum.

  250. Hedgehog

    One thing that everyone should understand from Ripper’s post is that once you are vaccinated, anything that goes wrong during any time in your life, whether a cold, flu, cancer, or heart attack, is the fault of the vaccine. Yeah, makes sense. =/

  251. Hedgehog

    One thing that no-one has mentioned so far is the cost to the state of not having children vaccinated. It’s almost a given that those children will be home-schoolers, and a large percentage from families on the center-to-left side of the bell curve. Given that, their healthcare costs, when they come down with rubella or pertussis or Hep B are probably going to be borne by the state. Can we check which states don’t have a motorcycle helmet requirement in the US, and compare that list with the list of states with a large number of home-schoolers? Why do I ask that particular question? It’s more or less the same thing, isn’t it? – exercising your “rights” without having to take on any of the concurrent responsibilities when things go sour.

  252. General J.D.Ripper

    @Ray C. who says:
    “Is “Gen. J.D. Ripper” a troll, or has he just not seen Dr. Strangelove? Jack D. Ripper is the very model of a woomonger, fluoridation of water being the bug up his bum.”

    Stanley Kubrick ,the director of Dr.Strangelove , was an interesting “in the know” guy.
    Whatever his purpose was in this movie , for ever after, whenever you bring up the possible dangers of Fluoride in the water, you get associated with being a kook and a maniac ,but with our apologies ,well owed to the General Ripper character , I bring your attention to some more of these kooks writing in Scientific American
    http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS108377%2B02-Jan-2008%2BPRN20080102
    I am glad you picked up on my humor ; Ray C.
    As I grow older , I more and more understand how the program works .

    And @ Hedgehog who says:
    “One thing that no-one has mentioned so far is the cost to the state of not having children vaccinated. It’s almost a given that those children will be home-schoolers”

    Yes — glad you got that “home schooler” talking point in — right out of the manual .

    And all of you guy’s can’t wait till we submit to the needle ,under the barrel of a gun
    if need be , I guess .
    We are a danger to the society you envision , for sure .
    All who are not on the payroll commenting in here — go to the Baxter links above and give it a good scrutiny .

  253. Mark Hansen

    Todd, the boulder just rolled back down again.

  254. General J.D.Ripper

    Okay ,since you bring up Sisyphus — let me refresh your memory —
    There was a reason he was assigned his task .
    Sisyphus promoted navigation and commerce, but was avaricious and deceitful, violating the laws of hospitality by killing travelers and guests. He took pleasure in these killings because they allowed him to maintain his dominant position. From Homer onwards, Sisyphus was famed as the craftiest of men.

  255. Mark Hansen

    Oh, gee, thanks for that. How else could I possibly have learned that?

    As you seem to have taken the reference out of context, let me refresh. A Sisyphean task, as defined by Wikipedia, is
    Today, Sisyphean can be used as an adjective meaning that an activity is unending and/or repetitive. It could also be used to refer to tasks that are pointless and unrewarding.” Wikipedia also seems to be the source of your definition but the spam filter must have lopped off your citation.

    Clearly, unrewarding is what this task is for Todd. Trolling, on the other hand, seems to be as natural as breathing to you.

  256. General J.D.Ripper

    Let’s sum up here —
    You think that inoculations should be required and the Pharma companies should
    keep creating more and more of them for us to be mandated injected with .
    Meanwhile the Pharma Companies rake in record profits . Perhaps I could also add
    that you aim for all dissent to be squashed ,particularly when they bring to the public’s attention instances of gross negligence ,if not malfeasance .

  257. Mark Hansen

    Let me accurately sum things up for you:

    1: I’m not on Big Pharma’s™ payroll – I drive trains. I wish I was getting paid by them. It would go some way towards making up for having to repeat everything to someone too thick to see past their pet conspiracy theory.

    2: Pharma companies make profits – what does Big Homeo™ do? Do they hand out water (shaken, not stirred) for free? Proportionately, Big Homeo™ makes more from their products than Big Pharma™. Big Homeo™ doesn’t have to show any efficacy, because there isn’t any, and it doesn’t have to have any active ingredients in its preparations. Try looking up Oscillococcinum for a prime example of Big Homeo™ making profits from nothing.

    3: Baxter’s production problems – and that’s what they were, despite your dark murmurings of conspiracy – were obviously brought to the public’s attention. If you read the articles you posted, without a preconceived notion that they were doing Teh Ebil Gummint’s™ bidding, you’ll see that when they were notified by quality control of the contamination, they withdrew the product before it went out. If they were going for malfeasance, they would have substituted a good batch for testing.

    That really is my final word on this subject in this thread. If you want to argue that there’s a deliberate mind-control, disease-inducing conspiracy that Big Pharma™ and Teh Ebil Gummint™ have cooked up between themselves, then go right ahead. Trolls and fools are in a never ending supply which is what keeps homeopathy in business.

  258. @Mark Hansen
    I drive trains.

    Coooool.

  259. Mark Hansen

    @Shane,
    Looking at your blog, and assuming you catch suburban trains, it’s possible I have been the driver of your train. Scary, no?

  260. @Mark
    Cripes, don’t tell me you’re one of those late night drivers that may have a couple of groupies in the driver’s cabin that try to to break the the rail speed record between city stations. Scary yes!

  261. Mark Hansen

    @Shane,
    No, the railways got rid of him* ages ago. Usually when there’s more than one of us up front, it’s another driver travelling home. The most amusing nights are Friday (aka Freaky Friday) and Saturday. These are the nights when some passengers supply the Lake of Vomit (usually brewed from one or more alcoholic beverages) for the pleasure and amusement of the rest of the travelling public. The Lake of Vomit also goes down well with the cleaners.

    *Note to anyone else, especially from Sydney, reading this: Yes, this character really did exist. No, I’m not saying who.

  262. General J.D.Ripper

    Hmmmm— what do we have here ?
    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601124&sid=aShZig0Cig4g&refer=home
    And back to that Baxter Fas Paux — all reliable reports, do not describe it as a quality control /contamination issue, but that Pure un-attenuated Bird flu was shipped and combined accidentally with normal vaccine — quit trying to downplay this .
    And okay this was an accident — should we be allowing these people to even clean our toilets, much less be in charge of material that is supposed to be kept in a high level of Bio-containment ?
    And you wish me to be trustful ? How about we destroy all this material and pass laws against anyone having it in their possession — leaving the flu alone seems to be less dangerous than trusting this stuff to incompetent dim wits .
    Read the above link —–
    But you will just say –no harm done–the system worked —- did it ?

  263. @General J.D. Ripper

    Hmmmm— what do we have here ?
    (dub dub dub dot)bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601124&sid=aShZig0Cig4g&refer=home

    We have a news article (not a science paper) that says “one guy thinks it may be an escaped lab variant, but the whole thing boils down to ‘we still don’t know'”. So, one study that is still being reviewed, after which, others will need to replicate the results. Nothing to be worried about here. The article does not include any hard facts, merely speculation, like most of the things you’ve given us.

    And back to that Baxter Fas Paux — all reliable reports, do not describe it as a quality control /contamination issue, but that Pure un-attenuated Bird flu was shipped and combined accidentally with normal vaccine — quit trying to downplay this .

    Okay. What part of “accident” is not a part of quality control? And do you have links to “reliable” reports which all describe it as not a QC issue?

    And okay this was an accident — should we be allowing these people to even clean our toilets, much less be in charge of material that is supposed to be kept in a high level of Bio-containment? And you wish me to be trustful?

    Do you drive a car? But car manufacturers have made mistakes in production that led to unsafe products! Do you take any medicines, even alternative things like herbals? I’m sure that not a single person in any of those manufacturers has ever made any mistake that could be potentially dangerous. And I’m pretty sure that no QC issues have happened among food producers that would be dangerous, like, oh, salmonella contamination or something like that.

    How about we destroy all this material and pass laws against anyone having it in their possession — leaving the flu alone seems to be less dangerous than trusting this stuff to incompetent dim wits.

    Yes. Destroy all the material so that no vaccines can be created. That way, the virus can run rampant and free, infecting anyone it wishes! Forget about preventing infection and removing potential reservoirs. Natural immunity and the subsequent medical care to recover is so much better and cheaper. It worked so well in the early 20th century when there was that epidemic that killed thousands.

  264. General J.D.Ripper

    @Todd
    Good to see you have the guard duty today .
    Concerning your statement —
    “Yes. Destroy all the material so that no vaccines can be created. That way, the virus can run rampant and free, infecting anyone it wishes! Forget about preventing infection and removing potential reservoirs. Natural immunity and the subsequent medical care to recover is so much better and cheaper. It worked so well in the early 20th century when there was that epidemic that killed thousands.”

    In this instance , we are talking about a virus that ,to date ,has not been able to mutate
    into a very “human to human contagion” — and when people do contract this strain from
    living in very close proximity to certain birds , it would appear to have a high fatality rate — extremely high .
    Fortunately when it does infect humans it has not learned to jump from human to human yet . Even tho we have been “warned ” for years that this is about to happen.
    If one was to accidentally be injected with with a normal attenuated flu virus vaccine
    that ,thru some stupendous act of “negligence”, had been laced with non-attenuated Bird Flu strain– this seems a very good way to mutate up a more “Human to Human” extremely deadly Flu strain .
    So to me, by letting incompetent people have there hands on a virus ,in concentrated form, that any one could term as a “Bio Weapon” — thru this mechanism , could result in a Pandemic of Apocalyptic scale , that possibly would not have occurred naturally .

  265. General J.D.Ripper

    @Todd who stated –“We have a news article (not a science paper) that says “one guy thinks it may be an escaped lab variant”—–
    Let’s be fair — this “one guy” is a Scientist who has been active in Flu research for years–
    the W.H.O. seem to be listening and asking questions — altho ,I would wish any investigation to be in other hands than the W.H.O.
    When I get the time , I will round up more names of “guys”—- as you like to call them , who are stating publicly and suspiciously that there was something unique in this latest H1N1 virus. Oh– and I know that they are all unique in their mutations , but this one has been described as “puzzling”.
    And why are you so defensive about “Baxter” ? — seems like any one would think a big stink about this would be in fine order . None of my business , but did you invest heavy in their stocks — not trying to be insulting — I sincerely am very puzzled over this kind of reaction .

  266. @General J.D. Ripper

    Let’s be fair — this “one guy” is a Scientist who has been active in Flu research for years

    Which is why his study should be taken seriously and investigated. Never said it shouldn’t. However, one study, which thus far is inconclusive, does not constitute fact. You jump the gun on these things a lot, it seems, taking a preliminary finding and leaping to some conclusion that is not warranted.

    And why are you so defensive about “Baxter” ? — seems like any one would think a big stink about this would be in fine order .

    It doesn’t matter if it was Baxter or Joe’s Discount Market. You are jumping to conclusions that are not warranted or supported by the data. Your posts sound like they have a touch of, if not paranoia, phobia in them. I have no vested interest in any pharmaceutical company, other than I think that, on average, they do a pretty decent job and, like every industry, they have incidents of human error. When they take proper corrective action, I’m satisfied. Now, if they had the same problem recurring on a regular basis, then I would be a bit more critical of them. But, they haven’t. We’ve already gone over this, so I won’t reiterate the issues.

  267. General J.D.Ripper

    This is only a guess — but I would suspect that at Chernobyl ,they might have had many incidents ,leading up to that Calamity, that were handled ,also .
    Something stinks in this —- from what has been reported .
    Most people I know, that are aware of this , are outraged . Common sense —- is not to be discounted .
    And I’d sell my stock .

  268. @General J.D. Ripper

    I wasn’t entirely familiar with exactly what happened at Chernobyl before it went kablooey. So, I took a look at Wikipedia and found some info on the causes: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster#Causes.

    It looks like they had a combination of bad facility design, bad testing procedures, safety features deactivated, personnel that lacked the required skills and training, and so on. A whole lot of factors that all came together at that fateful moment.

    While it is conceivable that such a colossal clusterf* could have also taken place at your pet sinister evil pharma, Baxter, it apparently has not. For starters, they still had safety protocols in place, recalling the tainted vials before they could be administered to any people. I’ve yet to see any final report on how their accident happened, but there are a lot of conspiracy sites saying the same kind of thing as you, jumping to conclusions with zip to support them. I suggest you drop it for now, pending the final investigation report. Otherwise, you’re just pulling stuff out of your rear.

    Common sense —- is not to be discounted .

    If the evidence contradicts it, then, yes, it is to be discounted. Just because something may seem like common sense doesn’t mean that it’s right.

  269. IVAN3MAN

    RE: Chernobyl Disaster — Causes:

    There is no question that the operators violated the reactor’s design specifications, and were seemingly ignorant of the safety requirements needed by the RBMK design. This was probably due to their lack of knowledge of reactor physics and engineering, as well as lack of experience and training.

    Obviously, Homer Jakov Simpski was in charge. :P

  270. IVAN3MAN

    D’oh! Damn that bloody “blockquote” tag!

  271. General J.D. Ripper

    @Todd who says–
    “For starters, they still had safety protocols in place, recalling the tainted vials before they could be administered to any people”

    Okay — so speaking of pulling stuff out of your rear , as you cautioned me .
    Avir Greenhills Biotechnology and their subcontractors are the customers of Baxter .
    It was not Baxter , whose safety protocols saved the day , but Avir Greenhills subcontractors who discovered the Live Avian Flu Virus in the normal vaccine.
    Didn’t want you to accidentally propagate dis -info or anything .
    And isn’t Baxter signed on to BSL3(Biosafety Level 3) ? Read about that system and tell me again how H5N1 accidentally leaked out of a lab .
    And I bet you ,that no one will even lose their job over this .
    The struggle for truth continues .
    The rest of you can continue to take your vaccines and trust in the system .
    Just don’t point a gun at me and make me take one also .

  272. @General J.D. Ripper

    Avir Greenhills Biotechnology and their subcontractors are the customers of Baxter .

    No, they are not a customer of Baxter’s. Being a contractor means that Baxter is employing them. Now, if they were not undertaking work for Baxter and were merely buying products from them, then they’d be customers. Being paid by Baxter to undertake work means that they need to adhere to Baxter’s protocols, if I’m not mistaken.

    Also, according to a Baxter spokesperson (http://www.avianflutalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=21984), it appears that the contamination was not in a product intended for human use. This is corroborated at http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aTo3LbhcA75I. I’m expecting, however, that you will come back saying something along the lines of “how can we trust anything they say” or some such. But, barring some other source of independent information about it, it’s what we have to go on.

    Personally, I don’t have the data available to me regarding what exactly happened in the various labs involved, nor do I have access to their written protocol. So, I cannot say how H5N1 accidentally leaked out of one of their labs. You seem to have access to information I do not, though, so please share it with us. Explain to us the step-by-step of what happened, supported by documentary evidence, showing how this happened.

    In the end, though, this is really off topic. Explain again how this shows that vaccines, as a whole, are bad?

  273. General J.D. Ripper

    @Todd —
    I think you are mistaken , from all I can find .
    Now for further arguments towards the use of caution with vaccinations —
    Argue this —
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090519172045.htm
    Once again –I only argue for caution and moderation , which I feel would be totally reasonable
    when it comes to injecting genetic material into the bloodstream .
    The more you push — the more some of us begin seeing some sort of agenda in this .

  274. General J.D. Ripper

    Also@Todd —
    As to the Bloomberg link –I am not saying they can’t be trusted— but their report seems to contradict more mainstream reports that I have studied . In this instance — I feel they are mistaken .
    From all I can put together, this was intended for human consumption .
    Seems like more manipulation of the facts– and suppression of investigation is going on–
    so thru the murk being thrown in the waters , it is getting harder to pin it down
    Bloomberg sounds more reassuring but I am getting another story from the European press .

  275. @General J.D. Ripper

    I think you are mistaken , from all I can find .

    About any particular point, or everything? Please elucidate. And I eagerly await your production of the materials that lead you to think that I am mistaken.

    Once again –I only argue for caution and moderation , which I feel would be totally reasonable when it comes to injecting genetic material into the bloodstream.

    Nothing wrong with caution and moderation. However, one must properly assess the risks and benefits when making a conclusion about what is cautious and moderate. Oh, and vaccines are not injected into the bloodstream. They are injected either intra-muscularly or subcutaneously.

    I did note, from the link you provided (a link to the actual study, instead of a news article, would have been better), the following:

    “While these findings do raise questions about the efficacy of the vaccine, they do not in fact implicate it as a cause of hospitalizations,” said Dr. Joshi. “More studies are needed to assess not only the immunogenicity, but also the efficacy of different influenza vaccines in asthmatic subjects.”

    So, the authors admit that the study is not sufficient to show a causal link between immunization and hospitalization, that further research is required. It would also be interesting to note any variations based on exactly which flu vaccine was received by the patients. There are several available, so that is another factor which may skew results.

    The more you push — the more some of us begin seeing some sort of agenda in this.

    And what agenda may that be, pray tell? While it is only my word, and you’ll probably discount it because it doesn’t fit with your preconceptions, I have no financial ties or interests in any pharmaceutical or other medical company. For what it’s worth, I work in non-profit development. The biggest personal stake I have in this is that I have a friend who is a transplant recipient, so he’s on immunosuppressants, making him rather vulnerable to lots of diseases. So, you can see “some sort of agenda” all you want, but methinks your eyes are playing tricks on you.

    As to the Bloomberg link –I am not saying they can’t be trusted— but their report seems to contradict more mainstream reports that I have studied. In this instance — I feel they are mistaken.
    From all I can put together, this was intended for human consumption.
    Seems like more manipulation of the facts– and suppression of investigation is going on–
    so thru the murk being thrown in the waters , it is getting harder to pin it down Bloomberg sounds more reassuring but I am getting another story from the European press.

    Again, care to share any of those sources? Or are we just supposed to take your word for it? Your posts are full of speculation and conspiracy-style language, but really short on actual evidence. I said it before, and I’ll say it again, you seem to have access to information I do not, so please share it with us. Explain to us the step-by-step of what happened, supported by documentary evidence, showing how this happened.

  276. ronny

    The one quarrel I have with this article is the “us vs. them” mentality. This is not about skeptics vs. believers. This is about incredibly arrogant people who think it’s OK to put everyone else in danger vs. well, everyone else.

    Look, if a person wants to walk down the street with a chicken on their head, then I’m all for it. But if they decide to walk down a busy street with a live cobra on their head, that’s a different matter altogether – because that’s putting ME at risk.

    I don’t think this is a debatable issue. I think their are some things that every sane human being can agree on regardless of their beliefs. This is so, whether you are atheist, a Muslim, a Seventh Day Aventists, a Creationist, a Darwinist, or what have you. Some things are simply obvious and anyone who argues with it is just being a dick.

    Mandatory vaccinations should be one of those things.

    We don’t debate whether children should play with live grenades. We don’t argue about whether sewage pipes are a good thing. Sane people have no problem with publicly available drinking water. We’re all in agreement that detonating nuclear weapons next to cities is a Bad Thing.

    Similarly, taking chances with creating new vaccine-resistant plagues is also a Bad Thing.

    As for the arrogant morons who insist on putting every single human being on the planet in danger, you can all seriously go to Hell. And I mean that in the literal as well as figurative sense.

  277. General J.D. Ripper

    @ Ronny who stated –“The one quarrel I have with this article is the “us vs. them” mentality. This is not about skeptics vs. believers. This is about incredibly arrogant people who think it’s OK to put everyone else in danger vs. well, everyone else.”—- before you went on to state that
    anyone not sharing your views is a Moron and , once again that theme running through
    these post — a menace to society.
    If your vaccines work — we are not putting you at risk — if they do not work , then why are we even having this discussion ?
    I grew tired of this series of posts sometime back , when I began to strongly suspect that
    most of the folks posting here were on the payroll of those with a strong financial interest
    in requiring all of us to take vaccines .
    I will leave you once again with this —- intelligent people have figured out this scam and we will not be participating in your forced inoculation program —you can plan on it.
    So you will want to round us all up — put us in camps — maybe have us wear some sort of badge identifying us — you my friends are a Nazis —
    We’re not gonna take it —- period .

  278. @General J.D. Ripper

    If your vaccines work — we are not putting you at risk — if they do not work , then why are we even having this discussion ?

    Pretty sure this has been said before, but you clearly haven’t gotten it. Vaccines are not 100% effective, though they’re pretty darn close (after a complete series, nearly every individual that is immunized gains immunity; only a handful don’t). Additionally, there are individuals who are not able to be immunized due to allergies or other conditions (e.g., AIDS, lupus, transplant recipients on immunosuppressant drugs, and so on) or because they are still too young (i.e., newborns whose immune systems are not yet capable of forming memory cells, thereby gaining no benefit from a vaccine – hence why we wait on the majority of vaccines). So, you are putting people at risk. As I said before, I have a friend who is a transplant recipient and who would be in a very bad way if he were exposed to a carrier of one of those diseases.

    The greater the number of people who do not vaccinate, the more of a foothold these diseases get and the more carriers there are. However, if we maintain high levels of vaccination, keeping herd immunity up, then these diseases cannot gain a foothold and become endemic; there will be fewer carriers, and the likelihood of those vulnerable populations being infected is almost 0%.

    Also bear in mind that a person can be contagious before symptoms show for some of these vaccine-preventable diseases. Others may appear to be the common cold in early stages, so the carriers are not likely to quarantine themselves or take proper precautions to protect others.

    I’m still waiting for a response to my last post, too. Any sources to back up anything you say, or just more vague conspiracy theories?

  279. Sam

    The fact is that the only vaccine statistically proven to offer any benefit or protection is the polio one and it is also taken by mouth and not injected. Think about it.

    Herd immunity? Think about that again. If you believe in vaccination and if everyone were vaccinated then diseases would simply disappear…..They don’t.

  280. Mark Hansen

    Sam, ever heard of smallpox? Do people get it now? Want to know why?
    Vaccines, like everything else except death, are not 100% effective. That’s why we need to use herd immunity. But as Todd covers this about two posts previously, as well as other times in this thread, I’ll just let you look there for the answers.

  281. @Sam

    Actually, there is other evidence of the efficacy of vaccines. For example, in numerous places following a drop in measles vaccination, measles outbreaks occurred. When vaccination rates increased again, infection rates dropped.

    Further, some of these diseases have non-human reservoirs, so they cannot be completely eradicated. Influenza is an example of such a disease. Likewise, as Mark Hansen pointed out, vaccines are not 100% effective (thought they’re pretty darn close). Add to that that not everyone can receive vaccines due to a variety of health reasons (allergy to ingredients, immunosuppressed [HIV/AIDS, transplant recipients, etc.], age and so on), and you see that there is potential for diseases to continue on even in human populations. Herd immunity helps to prevent that. And it’s all the more important when infection is just a plane flight away to a country with lower or no vaccination rates.

  282. Marcus123

    The posts between General J.D. Ripper and everyone have been a delight to read. My money is on both “sides”. We need to question everything, but also not forego tools at our disposal when needed in an *emergency*. We are in no such state currently. For those of you forecasting a mass-outbreak unless every organism in the world gets vaccinated, you should look to the skies in morbid fear, more worried about the next asteroid to collide with earth (it is coming you know!).

    A point that I think is missed amongst all this lovely dialogue is this – while it may be that common vaccines in general are “99% effective”, it should be noted that all vaccines are *different*. Just because vaccines for whooping cough, smallpox etc have done their job, doesn’t mean that parallels can be drawn to *all* vaccines. Vaccine A, made from virus A, using method A, by Company A, administered to person A is going to be different from Vaccine B, made from virus B, using method B, by Company B, administered to person B. Classifying them all as the same is simply WRONG.

    Like General J.D. Ripper, I just don’t like the idea of compulsory vaccination (therefore ostracised if not) & the way the swine flu vaccine is being pushed through (spreading the disease further, quicker). Putting all your eggs in the same basket by vaccinating every single human being could be our biggest mistake (is it actually possible for one?).

    Okay, fire away… or is everyone dead now?

  283. @Marcus123

    Classifying them all as the same is simply WRONG.

    Who is saying that every vaccine is the same?

    the way the swine flu vaccine is being pushed through (spreading the disease further, quicker)

    Wait…how is the swine flu vaccine spreading the disease further, quicker? Where did you get that from?

    Putting all your eggs in the same basket by vaccinating every single human being could be our biggest mistake (is it actually possible for one?).

    How so? Please explain your reasoning that it “could be our biggest mistake”. Further, how is it putting all of our eggs in the same basket? As to whether it’s possible, yes, it is. Really freakin’ unlikely, but possible.

    Now, what specific criticisms do you have of vaccines?

  284. Marcus123

    **Please ignore my post above, I missed the chance to edit it. This is a better version**

    “Now, what specific criticisms do you have of vaccines?”
    That is my issue actually, you’ve just lumped them all together again. Many people are generalising that vaccines (plural/all) are okay (because the case studies say so!), when they are quite clearly not created/developed equal. I didn’t say that I had an issue with vaccines per se, the ones that are tried and tested, as I have been vaccinated myself for things in the past (not that I had any choice). It is wrong to say that vaccine B is safe, just because vaccine A is, and they are both vaccines (even different batches of the same vaccine). And some just aren’t safe or don’t work: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11457543

    “Who is saying that every vaccine is the same?”
    See above. Splitting hairs I know, but I think it’s important that people state exactly which vaccine they are talking about. It needs to be acknowledged that *all* vaccines are not 100% safe & do carry some risk, just like all medicine. I’m glad to see your website says this.

    “Wait…how is the swine flu vaccine spreading the disease further, quicker? Where did you get that from?”
    Well the vaccine is the virus isn’t it? (simply put) Be it dormant or weakened, with compulsory global vaccination is it not possible that this program will pass the virus to more people more quickly than it would spread naturally? And then what if there’s a dud batch or some secondary effect? Yes, it’s a “what if” scenario, but all angles need to be covered. I know people who have come down with the flu from their yearly flu vaccination (and then caught another). Weakened or not, they still got it… That’s my train of thought on that one.

    That point, and of issues with some medicine not being picked up until decades later, is where my concern over ” putting all our eggs in the same basket” comes in. Caution, rather than frantic global vaccination, may be a wise move. Again, I’m not against it, but I feel it should happen only when it is absolutely necessary. If normal healthy people are able to fight swine-flu on their own, surely only those who can’t should have it. But that’s just my opinion, no doubt you’ll shoot it down…

    Swine-flu case numbers are supposedly dropping already, through good management & common sense. At least they are locally…

    Thanks for your website by the way (http://antiantivax.flurf.net/), I will read it. On the MMR front, we’ve had a local case where some “fully vaccinated children” have caught the virus from the vaccine (at least, that’s how I’ve read it):
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/medicine/news/article.cfm?c_id=255&objectid=10583730
    The exact cause isn’t known, but anything is a possibility. Maybe the original shots they had were dud (or they were overdue for another), but it highlights vaccine quality/safety, in this case anyhow.

  285. Mark Hansen

    @Marcus123,
    “…On the MMR front, we’ve had a local case where some “fully vaccinated children” have caught the virus from the vaccine (at least, that’s how I’ve read it):…”

    The way I see it, from that article, is that this demonstrates the breakdown (locally) of herd immunity. Out of 21 cases (15 confirmed, 6 probable), 12 of them had not been immunised at all and 3 only had partial immunisation (to an unknown degree). For 6 of the cases to have been fully immunised is worrying and presumably the main reason why the batch numbers for the vaccines are being checked. I agree that the vaccine quality needs to be checked but how you can draw the conclusion that it was the vaccine that caused the disease eludes me, especially since the vaccine is given at 15 months old and then at 4 – 5 years old (www.moh.govt.nz/moh.nsf/indexmh/immunisation-schedule) and the youngest victim in this case was 11 years old.

    Also, you mentioned compulsory vaccination for the flu. In Aust. we don’t have compulsory vaccination for the flu but those at risk are recommended to have it (pre-existing conditions, elderly, etc.). I would be surprised if NZ doesn’t have a similar situation.

  286. This post didn’t go through in full, so I’m going to try breaking it into two sections.

    @Marcus123

    That is my issue actually, you’ve just lumped them all together again.

    Well, seeing as you did not specify which vaccines about which you had issues or questions, was I supposed to list out every vaccine individually?

    It is wrong to say that vaccine B is safe, just because vaccine A is

    Again, where are you getting this? Who is saying that vaccine B is safe just because vaccine A is also safe? The nearest we come to what you are criticizing is that we say that vaccines, in general, are safe and effective. We admit that there can be outliers, those mainly being newer vaccines. However, the vaccines about which we’re talking (those on the recommended childhood vaccination schedule) are all supported by proper safety and efficacy trials.

    And some just aren’t safe or don’t work [link snipped]

    So, in a discussion about the vaccines that children regularly receive, you bring up a vaccine that does not appear on the schedule of childhood vaccinations, is not even available (at least in the U.S., though it appears Greer Laboratories is working on one) and so is merely a strawman argument.

    I think it’s important that people state exactly which vaccine they are talking about.

    Though not explicitly stated, in these threads it is generally understood that when we are talking about vaccines, we’re talking only about those that are on the childhood vaccination schedule. That’s where most of the criticism lies (though a number of anti-vaxers tend to be of the “all vaccines are bad” variety).

    Well the vaccine is the virus isn’t it? (simply put) Be it dormant or weakened, with compulsory global vaccination is it not possible that this program will pass the virus to more people more quickly than it would spread naturally?

    If I’m not mistaken, flu vaccines use the inactivated virus, meaning the virus cannot replicate in the body or spread to other people. So, no, you cannot get the flu from the vaccine, and therefore you would not spread the flu.

    And then what if there’s a dud batch or some secondary effect?

    If it’s a dud, then we better figure out if it’s every lot of vaccine and why those lots which aren’t working, well, aren’t working. If there is some secondary effect (a little more specific, please?), then we deal with it. The majority of adverse effects are detected in clinical trials. Stuff that pops up after we start using it would most likely be too rare for a clinical trial to detect. If it’s something common, then we would identify which lots are leading to the issue and test them for contaminants. This kind of “what if” is not particularly useful, being incredibly vague and contributing little to the discussion.

    I know people who have come down with the flu from their yearly flu vaccination (and then caught another).

    Do you know which particular strains were in the vaccines? Which strains were isolated when they showed symptoms of the illness? There are a lot of different strains of influenza floating around. They mutate rapidly. And the seasonal vaccine targets only around 3 strains every year. Most likely the people were infected with a strain that was not in the vaccine, or they were already infected shortly before vaccination. Another possibility is that the illness was psychosomatic…they heard stories of people getting sick after the shot, on some level expected that they would also get ill and their body responded accordingly. Sort of a negative placebo effect, in essence.

    The only way to get influenza from the vaccine, if I understand it correctly, is if something went wrong in the inactivation phase of development, leading to still-active virus in the solution. If this were the case, though, then there would be a high incidence of illness in everyone that received a vaccine from the bad lot. This would raise some flags, leading to an investigation of the lots, etc.

    Part 2 is in moderation due to a hyperlink…

  287. Here’s part 2:

    If normal healthy people are able to fight swine-flu on their own, surely only those who can’t should have it. But that’s just my opinion, no doubt you’ll shoot it down…

    Swine-flu case numbers are supposedly dropping already, through good management & common sense. At least they are locally…

    The H1N1 virus appears to be following the pattern of other pandemics. They generally have an initial round that is mild, followed by a round of rapid spread with a much harder punch. While it appears mild right now, there is potential for it to be another really bad pandemic, such as the 1918 one. So, we could do nothing…just wait and see what happens, responding only if it turns ugly. But that would be like not getting car insurance until you’ve already had the accident.

    On the MMR front, we’ve had a local case where some “fully vaccinated children” have caught the virus from the vaccine (at least, that’s how I’ve read it)

    As Mark Hansen already mentioned, based on that article, how in the world do you read that the vaccine caused it? What I read suggested that the vaccine did not proffer immunity in those kids that were vaccinated (fully or partially), and that they were going to look at the lot the solutions were from to determine if there was something causing a lower efficacy. It might also be possible that those kids represented the percentage for whom the vaccine just doesn’t work and that, by coincidence, they happened to be in the same general region. But, until the outbreak has been investigated, we can’t know for certain.

    Maybe the original shots they had were dud (or they were overdue for another), but it highlights vaccine quality/safety, in this case anyhow.

    Well, I wouldn’t say that it highlights quality/safety issues, but it does raise the question of what the vaccination rates were in the area. This is a very important question, as the outbreak appears to be spreading:

    http://blogs.nzherald.co.nz/blog/your-views/2009/8/6/vaccination-answer-preventing-measles-epidemic/?c_id=1501154&objectid=10588998

    I did some more searching and found a news article that actually mentions vaccination rates (http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/486707):

    Nationally, only 82 per cent of children were fully vaccinated against measles, though Canterbury’s rate was higher at 88%. Rates of 95% were required to prevent outbreaks.

    So, it’s likely that due to lack of herd immunity, someone that was not vaccinated brought it into the area from somewhere else, and now it’s leaping from host to host, thriving on those who were not vaccinated, those who have not completed the series, and those rare individuals who were fully vaccinated, but for whom the vaccine did not provide immunity.

    Should we pay attention to safety, etc.? Yes. And we already do. They’re called clinical trials. They test for safety and for efficacy. The majority of bad products are caught during these trials and never make it to the general populace. Occasionally, the rare product gets through, for whatever reason, but is almost always caught within a couple years. Bad products that stay out there for decades are a rarity.

    In the end, you getting stuck in “what ifs” that, while “anything is possible”, are highly unlikely. It’s akin to saying “well, what if the wheel on my car just flies off, bounces off something else and smashes through my windsheild?” Anything’s possible, right?

  288. Marcus123

    “Anything’s possible, right?” – agree completely. Thanks for all your replies :)

  289. General J.D.Ripper

    @ Todd W. — who said —
    “The H1N1 virus appears to be following the pattern of other pandemics. They generally have an initial round that is mild, followed by a round of rapid spread with a much harder punch. While it appears mild right now, there is potential for it to be another really bad pandemic, such as the 1918 one. So, we could do nothing…just wait and see what happens, responding only if it turns ugly. But that would be like not getting car insurance until you’ve already had the accident.”
    —– so let’s handle it like we did the last Swine Flu Pandemic Hysteria back in 1976 and kill
    and maim thousands with a rushed vaccine ,for a Flu that killed exactly one person .
    This is such a mainstream historic fact that I will not even give references ,as anyone interested in checking into this can verify what I am saying quite easily .

  290. General J.D.Ripper

    Also @ TODD who asked —
    I’m still waiting for a response to my last post, too. Any sources to back up anything you say, or just more vague conspiracy theories?

    Nothing to say other than ” Don’t pass this Herd Immunity rationalization off on us ”
    Most of us feel that our bodies are our own and some of us have our own medical philosophies .
    Some of us feel that injected foreign DNA ,RNA ,etc. into the Human body , without restraint,
    is a very — very stupid thing to do .
    I personally have no dog in this fight , being Medically exempt from taking your mandated vaccines — see I have “Lupus” and take lots of Prednisone on a daily basis — and I developed
    “Lupus” — following shortly after receiving the 1976 “Swine Flu Vaccine” — but you will say
    “Anecdotal Evidence ” — I will say “perfectly healthy until that shot which crippled or killed thousands —-
    But ” exempt or not , I suspect , you and your fellow Reichministers will be labeling me a public heath menace and seek to either ” Kill me with a vaccine” or at best round me up
    into some sort of Anti -Vaxer Gulag Archipelago —- here I am , I will be awaiting the Cattle Car to transport me — will I be able to take a shower when I get there ?

  291. @General J.D. Ripper

    so let’s handle it like we did the last Swine Flu Pandemic Hysteria back in 1976 and kill and maim thousands with a rushed vaccine ,for a Flu that killed exactly one person.

    Apparently, you do not realize the difference between the unique situation that happened in 1976 and the current strain, even after I tried explaining the difference some. Also, please give a citation that “thousands” were killed. Can’t find one? Didn’t think so, because “thousands” did not die.

    following shortly after receiving the 1976 “Swine Flu Vaccine” — but you will say “Anecdotal Evidence ” — I will say “perfectly healthy until that shot which crippled or killed thousands

    You’re right, it is an anecdote. Further, it is a single data point, which hardly is enough to condemn anything. As to whether or not your condition was, in fact, caused by the vaccine, I can’t say. Your development of symptoms after receiving the vaccine may have been mere coincidence, or you may have had lupus already that was exacerbated by the vaccine. I’m not aware of any means that a vaccine could cause lupus, but I’m willing to read the scientific studies that you provide to support such a supposition.

    being Medically exempt from taking your mandated vaccines — see I have “Lupus” and take lots of Prednisone on a daily basis

    If you have a medical reason for not receiving a vaccine, then of course you should not receive it. So, when you say

    you and your fellow Reichministers will be labeling me a public heath menace and seek to either ” Kill me with a vaccine” or at best round me up
    into some sort of Anti -Vaxer Gulag Archipelago

    You’re wrong, again.

    here I am , I will be awaiting the Cattle Car to transport me — will I be able to take a shower when I get there ?

    Wow. So, we’re Nazis, now? Just…wow. Your tone seems at odds with what you claimed earlier:

    Once again –I only argue for caution and moderation , which I feel would be totally reasonable when it comes to injecting genetic material into the bloodstream.

    Those of us supporting vaccination are likened to fascist war criminals. Yep, that sounds like you’re arguing for moderation, all right.

    And you still did not provide any citations that the contaminated material was meant for human use. I guess you couldn’t find any.

    As to the vaccine that is being developed for the new H1N1 swine flu (which is a different, much more easily-spread strain than the 1976 strain – take a read of Joe Albietz’s article at http://tinyurl.com/nwa6c8 for a little more info on this), preliminary results from the clinical trials have not had any adverse reactions other than pain and swelling at the injection site.

  292. General J.D. Ripper

    @ Todd W . Current Gate keeper .
    I said ” crippled or killed thousands” not “Killed thousands” — official numbers will be less
    but they are there — look em up –go to youtube and get the “60 minutes” report on it from that era . Lot’s of lawsuits , but now you have “Legal Immunity” — wish I had sued back then , but I was an ignorant 23 year old and trusted the “Science” .
    Might I remind you — exactly one person died from that flu so what was the Benefit / Risk Ratio on that one ? And what exactly is the difference between one Flu Hysteria and the next . Read the polls — most Doctors will not be taking the current Swine Flu Vaccine .
    Nazi’s ? Heil yes ! Just look at some of the above comments from your side of the camp .
    Our bodies belong to us , not the Government .
    Where will you stop — a thousand vaccines for every malady ? 2 thousand ? How about 3 a day for life ? Will you feel safe then ?
    Logic and good sense would dictate minimizing the injecting of foreign genetic material into
    the bloodstream , not to mention the “Immune Response Enhancers “.
    As to the scientific evidence — this is routinely massaged .
    For years the greatest minds in Science massaged the math to prove the sun revolved around the earth . Then it was power and the church leading that charge , now I really feel
    it is money and can not rule out some Eugenics Agenda .
    We are on to you — back off .

  293. General J.D. Ripper

    And Todd , , of course I have followed the reports from Obama’s Science Advisory Board
    headed up by Obama’s lead Eugenicist John Holdren ( Read his books Boys and Girls, I have).
    Now there’s some Science for you .
    I could give you dozens of links saying this is Bullsh-t from just as credible sources .
    I could also give you links from so called credible sources that say it will kill millions and some say that it was intended to do just that . But I will not bother you on that one , as I am sure you have read them already and for anyone else viewing this dialog ( loosely called ) that is unfamiliar , they can Google it — they aren’t hiding their opinions .
    But here is one for you as to Health care Workers being dubious —
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,542950,00.html?loomia_ow=t0:s0:a16:g2:r1:c0.150291:b27368924:z0

  294. General J.D. Ripper

    And since this whole Blog evolved from some poor infant dying in Australia — and once again I will tell you that I would probably have any child of mine vaccinated against Whooping Cough
    (fingers crossed with much anxiety ) , but I would limit the prescribed program for the rest of it . Moderation when it comes to injecting Genetic Material and Chemical Gooblety-Gook into the Bloodstream and I’d say much more caution should be considered for the young .
    But , speaking on Australia — what’s with the Government not being willing to underwrite their potential Doctor’s liability for giving the upcoming Swine flu injection ..
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/2810679/Flu-jab-doctors-could-be-sued

  295. @General J. D. Ripper

    @ Todd W . Current Gate keeper

    You ascribe to me status that I do no have. I am but a humble commenter on the blog.

    And what exactly is the difference between one Flu Hysteria and the next

    Did you read the link I provided you to Dr. Albietz’ article? It doesn’t seem like you did. Please go read that (as well as the other posts at Science-Based Medicine blog on the H1N1 virus and vaccine). Likewise, it seems you have not read a single thing I’ve written describing the differences between 1976 and now.

    Nazi’s ? Heil yes !

    How many times must it be said, no one is requiring vaccination against anyone’s will. We are, however, strongly recommending vaccination.

    Where will you stop — a thousand vaccines for every malady ?

    Your ability to count seems to be impaired. What malady has thousands of vaccines?

    I said ” crippled or killed thousands” not “Killed thousands”

    From what I was able to find, only 532 cases of GBS were linked to the 1976 vaccine, and there were 25 deaths. Hardly “thousands” as you claim. Provide a link that shows otherwise, preferably from a scientific source. And keep in mind, that was out of over 48 million doses of the vaccine administered.

    We are on to you — back off .

    How many people have you got in there? Who am I talking to now, Sybil?

    I could give you dozens of links saying this is Bullsh-t from just as credible sources .

    I just asked you for one citation that the contaminated material was meant for human use. I’m still waiting.

    But here is one for you as to Health care Workers being dubious

    From what I understand, a lot of hospitals are implementing a policy where those healthcare workers who refuse the vaccination will be required to wear a special mask that will prevent the staff from being infected by patients or infecting patients. It is also my understanding that the types of masks that can offer this sort of protection are not particularly comfortable to wear for an entire shift. Regardless, healthcare workers are just as susceptible as anyone else to irrational beliefs, such as believing that the influenza vaccine is more dangerous than the flu.

    Moderation when it comes to injecting Genetic Material and Chemical Gooblety-Gook into the Bloodstream

    Once again, vaccines (which I assume you mean by “Genetic Material and Chemical Gooblety-Gook”) are not injected into the bloodstream.

    As to the Australian article you linked to, I note that one of the main objections of insurers was the use of multi-dose vials:

    But the insurers believe the distribution of the vaccine in multiple-dose vials exposes people to unnecessary risk of blood-borne infection from other recipients.

    The only way that would be a risk is if the doctors are using the same syringes for multiple patients without sterilizing them. And that would be a risk even with single-dose vials and has nothing to do with the vaccine itself, anyway. Further, insurers fearing losses due to suits against doctors administering the vaccines most likely stems from the realization that people want something to blame when they get hurt and that people are not very good at differentiating correlation and causation. So, if they go ahead with their program, people that suffer any manner of adverse turn in health anytime after receiving the vaccine may claim that the vaccine was to blame, regardless of whether there was a plausible causal relationship or not. Even if the person is wrong, the insurer and physicians still lose money because of the costs associated with defending their cases.

    At any rate, the article you linked to does not provide any support to your claims.

    Do not bother responding to me until you have read and comprehended the post I linked to, as well as the other articles at SBM on the swine flu.

  296. General J.D. ripper

    It is now months later, lots of events have come and gone.

    The Swine flu turned out to be a dud, regardless of effort to the contrary.
    Lot’s of vaccine sold tho — Ka- Ching.

    Now if they could just get more peopke to take it.

    But doesn’t matter, the Governments bought it —
    so the whole thing was really a program to give Pharma their
    “Bail Out” — I guess they felt a little left out, what with Trillions being given to the Bankers, and wanted their cut of the “Crime of the Century”.

    “Climate Gate” finally came to the mainstream’s attention.

    Turns out that there is no longer any integrity in Science.

    It is all about cash, and getting the political and financial
    agenda, of whomever is giving you the cash , sold to the public.

    Truth be damned.

    As to any comments from you guys, to this my last offering ——

    Spare me.

  297. General J.D. ripper

    Forgot this question — in Todd’s above comments, he seems to be telling us that vaccines
    do not get into the “Bloodstream”.

    I am apparently not a “Scientist”, but I could swear that in Biology, I was taught that
    this is where the immune system dwells, for the most part.

    Seems like Todd in his “Reaching”, was trying to tell us . that anything injected into
    Human Tissue, is not absorbed into the Bloodstream.

    Oh — well, Todd’s the expert, so I am probably wrong.

    But I suspect Todd has gone off to his next assignment by now.

    The ” Sound ” to remember? —– KA – CHING !!!

  298. Mark Hansen

    Yep, that ka-ching sound. You’re making heaps out of being a paid shill for Big Homeo™. How about selling your stock in them?
    Last offering my a***. You’ll be back rambling when you think no-one’s looking.

  299. Anna

    Now, I know this was a long time ago and I’m not even sure if any of you will ever even look at this again but I wanted to say my piece just in case. Firstly, I am not saying that those with anti-vaccination views are idiots or any such insult, I am well aware that for the most part they are only concerned parents. The problem is, what justification is there in taking YOUR opinion over that of the doctors? In a completely unrelated issue, if you were told you had an option of two people in which to place the health of your child, one had spent over five years at medical school, around two at internship and at least two more for any specialising courses whilst the other had done extensive research on the internet, which would you choose? It seems like a no-brainer and yet that is exactly what is happening. These parents have done no studies and no trials. So, why do they think they know better than their doctors and the men and women who dedicate their lives to just this field?

    Also, of course there are risks to vaccination. There are risks to everything. Should everyone stop swimming because a select few drown? Should everyone stop driving cars/catching trains/riding boats/flying planes because there is the chance something could go wrong? It is unreasonable to expect it. Many people claim, especially General J.D. Ripper as above, that ‘it is their body, they can do what they want with it’. What you don’t seem to realise is that it is NOT just your body. Unvaccinated people infect others. You do have the right to make a decision that could result in your death (I am NOT saying it will, I’m saying it could.) but do you have the right to make a decision that could result in the death of another? As stated VERY above, some people viewed this as murder and, in the definition, it IS manslaughter (Through negligence.). Now, again, I am not calling those anti-vaccinationly minded murderers. I am just trying to unheatedly portray the point of view of those pro-vaccination, like myself. I am pro-vaccination, 100%. I knew someone with an immune disease who contracted whooping cough from a child whose parents decided not to vaccinate their children and my friend died though the original carrier did not. I know that is an anecdote but it is an example of how this decision is NOT just about ‘your body’. Other lives are at stake, as shown by the death of Dana McCaffery.

    As for anyone who claims that scientists are making it up for money, that is a rather specious and unfounded, though very serious, accusation. To ward off any further accusations that I am on some kind of payroll, I can assure you that the only money I make is from my tutoring kids because I’m a full-time Uni student. Also, I doubt anyone would pay much for my opinion which I’m sure many of you will scoff at and disregard completely. Scientists are not trying to pull the wool over anyone’s eyes concerning vaccinations and anyone suggesting that Smallpox was a made up disease, created to heighten the evidence supporting vaccination, that is an even more serious accusation and, what’s more, a grave insult to all those who fought the disease or had a loved one do so. You would not go up to a mother who had just lost her child to cancer and say that it was a made up disease, created just to make a profit from chemotherapy. It’s incredibly offensive and insensitive. As is referring to those who are pro-vaccination as Nazi’s. What the Nazi’s did is renowned as possibly the cruellest and most evil act in fairly modern history. We have done nothing to warrant that. We have not shoved needles into your unwilling bodies (Into which the vaccine is in fact NOT injected into the bloodstream, it simply diffuses into it from the actual injection site.) nor have we made a play for compulsory immunisation. In fact, as shown in earlier comments, many are highly against that. I, for one, do not think that everyone should be made to have vaccinations, especially those with medical reasons, though I DO believe that people should stop seeing it as simply ‘their bodies’ because, frankly, it’s not. If you decide not to vaccinate, it is NOT just you affected and that should definitely be taken into consideration.

    Also, anyone believing that vaccinations cause autism are seriously mistaken. Not only has there been extensive research into disproving this theory (Which it has effectively succeeded in.) but autism is, for the most part, genetically based which is not effected by anything in modern vaccines. For those of you who wished for an uninsulting view from the pro-vaccination perspective, I hope I’ve satisfied you. I really do mean no offence. Though, again, I hope that everyone will take the risks to those unprotected, such as babies like Dana, into account before they decide definitely against vaccines. Not vaccinating CAN cost lives.

NEW ON DISCOVER
OPEN
CITIZEN SCIENCE
ADVERTISEMENT

Discover's Newsletter

Sign up to get the latest science news delivered weekly right to your inbox!

ADVERTISEMENT

See More

ADVERTISEMENT