Shuttle delayed until July, LRO goes up Thursday

By Phil Plait | June 17, 2009 2:30 pm

A hydrogen vent leak prevented Endeavour from being fueled up last night, so the Shuttle launch had to be delayed. It’s quite a delay, too: the next window is on July 11! This is due to a geometric angle problem; during this time of year the Shuttle and Space Station would be at an angle to the Sun that makes thermal issues a problem. So they have to wait a month to try again.

In the meantime, some real science will get underway with the launch of the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter tomorrow, Thursday, June 18. There are three launch opportunities all within 20 minutes of each other, starting at 17:12 Eastern time (21:12 GMT). I’ll be watching, and live-tweeting the event on my BANews Twitter feed.

LRO will take several days to get to the Moon, but once there, and after its shake-down, it’ll return wonderful data of our satellite, including images with details as small as 50 cm (18 inches)! I cannot wait to see those. Wow.

CATEGORIZED UNDER: NASA, Piece of mind, Space

Comments (538)

  1. Will it pretend to send back photos of the faked moon landing? ;)

  2. Torbjörn Larsson, OM

    Durn hydrogen leaks, they are easy enough to detect but hard to stop. Eventually hydrogen goes through everything. It’s entropy, and you got to live with it.

    But what about those “thermal issues”? It’s like the STS never was designed properly for orbit. Did they really figure this 11/12 ratio into the original intended cheap transport duty cycle?

    And Orion isn’t either actually, it’s a man (tin) can for transit. Bummer!

  3. Given that Endeavour was supposed to be available for an “emergency rescue mission” for the previous shuttle flight, what would NASA have done if such a mission were needed, but there were the same problems that’s delayed this “regular” mission?

  4. IVAN3MAN

    Err… Phil, 50 cm is actually 19.685 inches.

    I’ll get my coat and see myself out…

  5. Neil

    I predict a major malfunction of LRO. Silence is an easy cover for lies.

    Japan recently crashed its Kaguya Lunar Orbiter on the surface of the moon.
    Despite Japan being the leader in camera technology, Kaguya, strangely, did not carry a camera with sufficient resolution to photograph Apollo landing site remnants.

    This week, the Americans will launch the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter from Cape Canaveral whose main mission is to silence moon hoax conspiracists. It is scheduled for a four-day journey to the moon whereupon it will conduct a one-year mission to survey the moon. The LRO is allegedly carrying a camera with ample resolution to photograph Apollo landing site remnants.

    Although several lunar orbiters have been sent to the moon by the United States and other nations, strangely, not a single orbiter since Lunar Orbiter 5, sent to the moon by the United States in 1967, has carried a camera with sufficient resolution to photograph objects the size of Apollo remnants. Unfortunately, in 1967 there were no alleged Apollo remnants yet on the moon.

    One of the pillars of the scientific method is independent verification. If Apollo was a NASA lie, the same people that lied are doing the verification. Sad.

  6. Davidlpf

    And even if the LRO does not fail you claim another form of cover up. Even sadder.

  7. IVAN3MAN

    If Apollo was a NASA lie, the Soviet Luna/Lunokhod programme could and would have easily exposed it, and provided the Russians with an excellent communist propaganda coup — it is that fact that Moon landing hoax conspirators cannot seem to grasp.

  8. The reality of the Apollo missions is not a matter of science, but of history.

    As far as history goes, there is plenty of evidence that supports the reality of the Apollo missions, and absolutely nothing that suggests the opposite. You know, like the Holocaust.

    Finding idiots to deny nearly anything is a trivial task. Sending high-resolution cameras to the moon? Somewhat less so. Looking forward to LRO photos (and not just because I want to see the Apollo landing sites.)

  9. BJN

    Moon hoaxers, may St. Onan bless and protect you.

  10. ELR

    Meh, if NASA shows pictures of the Apollo landing sites, they’re just confirming their own lie. If every other country independently verified it, the conspiracy mongers would just claim everyone else was in on the hoax because they’re afraid of the US. Whatever evidence is offered, there’s always a more grand conspiracy to propose.

  11. Elwood Herring

    Some people would deny the moon landings even if they were magically transported there and had their thick skulls banged repeatedly against the remnants of the landing craft.

    The Apollo mission remains the single greatest achievement of mankind, and I have nothing but admiration for everyone involved. I watched every broadcast and every news bulletin that I could (I was 12 during the Apollo 11 mission), seen every movie and documentary that has been made about it (The HBO series was awesome!) and I never had any doubt as to its authenticity. And I have nothing but contempt for anyone – ESPECIALLY Americans – who deny the reality of it. To Neil and the like: you are turning your backs on the greatest period in the history of the U.S. and the world as a whole, and should be thoroughly ashamed of yourselves – x 10 if you are American. (I’m British btw. Just to make the point that my admiration is not a matter of national pride. It’s HUMAN pride!)

  12. Charlie Young

    Maybe they can spot some of that machinery we left up there in the late 60s, early 70s. That’s the last time we were able to get that kind of resolution.

  13. sparks

    We laugh at the continuing waste of the hoaxers intellect.

  14. T.E.L.

    Neil,

    It’s interesting that you don’t accuse the original Lunar Orbiter program of being a hoax. I wonder why the super-intense radiation belts didn’t fog up LO’s *film*?

  15. Neil

    WHY I THINK THE HOLOCAUST IS A HOAX TOO

    The holocaust has been called by some the best documented crime in human history but if that’s the case, one should reasonably expect some documentation of gas chambers. With all the allied soldiers passing through the liberated camps, not a single soldier got a single photo of any gas chamber. No Nuremberg Trial investigator did either. To this day, no documentation exists that gas chambers ever existed at any camp. Modern forensic testing techniques could confirm the existence of gas chambers but they are forbidden.

    Simple arithmetic shows that using the most sophisticated, state-of-the-art cremation ovens available today(http://www.matthewscremation.com/products/humanCremationEquipment.asp), it would have taken at least 250 modern ovens impossibly operating 24/7 to incinerate only half the alleged six million in the time allotted for the holocaust(<1000 days). Cremation ovens are some nearly indestructible things; made of heavy iron and refractory brick, one could be hit with a 1000lb. bomb and still be recognizable. No documentation or count of ovens was ever performed by any Nuremberg Trial investigation.

    Lice insecticide, Zyklon B is still manufactured as Uragan D2 in the Czech Republic in the Draslovka Kolín factory and has been proven ineffective as an agent of mass murder. It's heat activated and would take many hours to produce any lethal concentration of cyanide. (Even under very controlled conditions, it's very difficult to kill someone using gaseous cyanide as California learned during its last disaster of a San Quentin gas chamber execution.) Cans of Zyklon B were found in liberated internment camps because lice and the resulting typhus disease were killing many internees and efforts were made to eradicate the insects. We had DDT for our Japanese-American concentration camps; the Germans used Zyklon B. (Had we lost that war, propaganda might have said we mass murdered Japanese using DDT gas.)

    TRUTH fears no trial. TRUTH fears no question. The easiest way to know the holocaust is a hoax is to recognize that Germany, Austria and other nations have erected outrageous laws prohibiting the questioning or investigation of the holocaust. Scholar historians and chemical engineer thought criminals are currently imprisoned for questioning the holocaust. (You can question God, Christ, Mohammad or Moses but Thou Shalt Not Question the Holocaust.) TRUTH does not need the protection of laws. TRUTH can stand on its own. Only lies need the protection of laws. The holocaust is a lie.

    Today’s holocaust cottage industry was jump-started with the1978 Skokie, Illinois march absurdly led by an alleged neo-Nazis who was a Jew, Frank Cohen, alias Frank Collin who was eventually imprisoned for molesting children and is now operating a new scam concerning Egyptian gold found in a Wisconsin cave. (I couldn't make this stuff up!) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Collin

    Zionist-controlled mainstream media with tight control of information is assisting in the formation of a new taxpayer-financed faith-based holocaust religion whose foundation, like most religions, is mainly myth. If you've got the guts, watch the video at http://www.holocaustdenialvideos.com/
    This website has some good information on it also, http://www.judicial-inc.org/

    The TRUTH shall yet ye free, but first IT shall make ye extremely miserable.

  16. neil,
    Your ignorance flies in the face of well established fact. If the Moon landings were a hoax, then this conspiracy involves tens of thousands of individuals, both in the United States and other countries, most notably, the former Soviet Union. Even the conspiracy theorists favorite man on the Moon, UFO loving, aliens are here believer, Edgar Mitchell says we went to the Moon.

    I will bet you a million bucks that when images of the landing sites are shown, the conspiracy believers will cry, “Photoshopped!”

  17. Neil

    Ten American astronauts allegedly walked on the moon before NASA finally got the last two Apollo 17 astronauts to allegedly photograph themselves with their big blue Earth home in the background. But even then, there are problems with those two photographs. They look like fake doctored photos. They’re close-ups with astronauts wrapping themselves in the American flag and they don’t show the astronauts actually standing on the surface of the moon. They reveal an oddly small mediocre Earth when an Earth seen from the moon should be four times the diameter, sixteen times the area and fifty times brighter than a moon seen from Earth. Defying belief, those are the only two photos of astronauts allegedly on the moon with Earth in the background. If you were one of the previous ten astronauts on the moon, would you have traveled that long dangerous way and not had your photo taken with the Earth in the background?

    There’s not a single photo of the unloading and assembly of any of the moon rovers allegedly used on the last three missions. The rovers themselves represent suicidal designs for 1/6th gravity environments. With high centers of gravity, narrow wheelbases, Earth-equivalent momentum (Momentum=mv), unknown terrain and weighing only 1/6th their Earth weight, they would have tipped over in every turn.

    The method that Apollo and ISS(International Space Station) astronauts on EVA(Extra Vehicular Activity) cool themselves is extremely problematic. All engineering students are taught that there are three modes of heat transfer, conduction, convection and radiation but no mention is ever made of the method used to cool astronauts in the vacuum of space. According to NASA, astronauts allegedly use nickel porous plate ice sublimators. I’ve done a lot of searching and have even been in contact with the alleged manufacturers of the cooling systems, United Technologies’ Hamilton Sunstrand and have received the standard basic propaganda baloney about how they work but have been unable to acquire any specifications or procedures for their operation. It seems that the transition from room temperature at pressure to room temperature at vacuum to 123C(253F) surface moon temperature at vacuum might pose some complicated procedural problems to keep astronauts healthy. NASA has big walk-in vacuum chambers and I’m confident they come supplied with radiation lamps. I don’t know about you, but I’ve never seen any demonstration of a live subject wearing an EVA suit being pumped down to 1e-7 torr with the heat lamps switched on. It should be simple enough to demonstrate. Would you volunteer to wear the suit during the demo?

    I’ve worked on several different vacuum systems and I’ve searched industrial suppliers high and low in search for a flexible glove attachment for commercial vacuum chambers and have yet to find one. They would come in very handy especially during maintenance to be able to manipulate things inside the chamber using your hand while the chamber was under vacuum. Astronauts have allegedly been using them since the 60′s with Ed White’s alleged Gemini spacewalk and still none are available for sale. Strange.

    I don’t know the link but you can find it; I know it’s on YouTube somewhere. Look for the Apollo 11 post-mission press conference and wonder yourself why Armstrong, Aldrin and Collins act psychotic. One reporter near the end of the conference asks them “what does going to the moon mean?” The response to the question is truly bizarre.

    Numerous unmanned lunar orbiters have been sent to the moon since Apollo from the United States, former USSR, Europe, Japan, India and China and yet, not a single orbiter was equipped with a camera with sufficient resolution to take a photo of any of the six alleged Apollo landing sites at known stationary positions. Even Google manages the task photographing our homes with their GoogleEarth cameras orbiting at even higher Earth altitudes contending with the additional burden of atmospheric interference. It’s absurd; you know we and the Japanese would have sent cameras that got the job done.

    Despite claims by NASA that satellites orbiting the smaller diameter moon at lower altitudes lack the camera resolution to photograph Apollo remnants, they recently released a photo allegedly taken by the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter of the Mars Phoenix Lander in motion as it descended beneath its parachute to the Martian surface. Although they can’t acquire a photograph of a stationary object on the moon at an exactly known location despite unlimited opportunities, they claim they have acquired a photograph of a moving object on Mars in a previously unknown location on the first try. Very strange inconsistency.

    If you carefully observe the IMAX video “Space Station” narrated by Tom Cruise, you might notice that it consists of a long compilation of short carefully edited sequences none of which is longer than could be filmed aboard a Vomit Comet.

    You might notice that recent coverage of ISS activities have been very strange also. $Billions in improvements have allegedly been made but we’re never invited aboard for a tour. Zionist tourists visit but no video or photographs are shared. ISS allegedly makes one orbit every ninety minutes for a sunrise or sunset every forty-five minutes and I’ve yet to see any video of one or the other. No photographs exist of any of the ISS in silhouette against a brilliant star-filled Universe on the dark side of Earth. They could easily take these photos from an approaching space shuttle or the fully extended robot arm on ISS. Sure, they’d have to adjust the aperture of their cameras but I’m sure astronauts are smart enough to figure it out. In fact, we’ve gotten hardly any photos or video from ISS and it’s been up there for a decade allegedly with people on board for the whole time.

    Something’s not right.

  18. mk

    Something’s not right.

    Yes, your mental state.

  19. Davidlpf

    Neil here is a website you can visit besides the original Bad astronomy wesite.

    http://www.clavius.org/

  20. James

    I guess someone still doesn’t realize that any camera could show either the stars in the background (and an overexposed mess of the astronauts/ISS/whatever he wants this time in the foreground) OR the foreground object (and and underexposed-so-as-to-appear-black background), but not both.

    And the day Neil shows me the math clearly proving that a camera of known resolution (you can look up the specs online, right?) on a current-gen lunar orbiter can resolve an object the size of the Apollo equipment (you can look up the size online, right?) at the orbital distance it is (you can look that up online, right?) I might take that claim a little more seriously.

    Otherwise, I’ll stick to my own math using those known quantities that pretty conclusively shows it’s not possible to see an object as tiny as a lunar rover from that high up with those cameras.

  21. George

    I have a third proposal that the conspiracy theorists and believers have both overlooked…Is it possible humans actually walked on the moon but not WHEN they claimed to have done it?

    Parts of the LEM was as thick as an aluminum soda can. The Van Allen Radiation belts would have cooked the astronauts. Was the technology to shield the astronauts from such intense radiation available in the late 60s or early 70s?

    It’s quite possible the LRO will show remnants of moon landings that were actually made much later…in the 1990s for example.

    I do not think my theory is on the realm of the ridiculous because why did the Russians throw in the towel and give up sending manned expeditions to the moon? They consistently beat America in sending a man into orbit, a woman into orbit, the first space walk, endurance records in space…why would they just give up in the quest to land human on the moon after the alleged July 20, 1969 landing? think about it…it’s nearly 40 years later and no other country has matched that feat? I find it hard to believe that it happened when it did.

  22. Kevin

    3. Ken B…

    The fueling leak is on Pad B (the main launch pad), and as far as anyone knows Pad A didn’t have the same problems. Now we won’t know, as Pad A is being retrofitted.

    Phil, I for one am looking forward to LRO/LCROSS and the amazing data we will get from them.

  23. gopher65

    Phil: Your RSS feed stopped working for me, but the Cosmic Variance one on this same site still works. It’s been like this for more than a day now. I tried redoing the feed, but the result was the same. I don’t see how this could be a bug on my end (I changed nothing), so is anyone else having this problem?

  24. T.E.L.

    Neil, you seem to be implying that the ISS is also a hoax. It certainly isn’t a hoax in the sense that it really is there; it’s resolvable in consumer-grade telescopes. Its dimensions and orbital elements can be verified independently. Even you could do it. So, since the ISS really is on orbit, what makes you think a few people are beyond rocket technology’s abilities? Perhaps you think that no one has ever done an on-orbit EVA. After all, the thermal problems at LEO are pretty much like those on the Moon. How do you suppose all those robots have been managing their temperatures, both so close and so far away from Earth and the Sun? Are you saying that all space travel has been a decades-long hoax? Yet it cannot all be a hoax: like I said, a lot of the stuff that’s claimed to be up there can be seen and tracked, independently, from Earth. It is therefore possible to put objects on orbit. People are just another kind of payload, as far as the rocket is concerned.

    Incidentally, if you’re worried that no pictures have ever been published of the lunar rover being deployed, worry no longer. The whole affair is on video, video which I watched unedited when it was broadcast live: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHF5EcdLxQo

    And for everyone’s reference, the IMAX film “Space Station” is currently posted on YouTube. Judge for yourselves if every zero-g scene might have been shot on the Comet. But I’m sure that not everyone here needs to wonder about that, since there are so many other clips online which far outlast the Comet’s shifts in freefall. And also, everyone have a close look at the movie Apollo 13, where you’ll see instances where you can tell that the aircraft was starting to level off near the end of a shot. It’s not all that easy to shoot seamless space-fakery.

  25. T.E.L.

    George Said:

    “Parts of the LEM was as thick as an aluminum soda can. The Van Allen Radiation belts would have cooked the astronauts.”

    Please back this up with a convincing argument. For instance, what is the lethal dose for a human body? How does this compare with the actual dose one would receive while zipping through the densest regions of radiation? Is there some reason why the spacecraft cannot have avoided the densest regions? And, why are the belts called “belts”, rather than, say, a radiation sphere?

  26. JeffS

    Neil Said:
    “There’s not a single photo of the unloading and assembly of any of the moon rovers allegedly used on the last three missions.”

    Really? How about some video then:
    http://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a15/a15v.1201444.mpg (unload starts about halfway through)

    And here’s a continuation (Real Video only):
    http://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a15/a15v.1201727.rm

    Full transcript and video at http://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a15/a15.lrvdep.html.

  27. Davidlpf

    Also the duration through the belts was short,and also it was through the thiinest parts.
    added. Do HBers ever do they own homework?

  28. ethanol

    Neil: Ever heard of “argument from ignorance.” Just because you can’t find some particular picture; just because you don’t know how something would work; doesn’t qualify as convincing evidence. Furthermore, when NASA has presented such a tremendous surplus of images, samples, and scientific results, you don’t get to demand that they send some specific probe or provide some specific video just to satisfy you. Especially when any convincing evidence that they do present will inevitably be condemned as fake. You seem bewildered that they wouldn’t send high resolution reconnaissance cameras before, as if their top priority was to convince insane conspiracy theorists of something that is already supported by mountains of evidence. Only now, that they are actually planning a moon base do they have use for imaging of the sort that has previously been used around the earth and mars. It is unlikely that the LRO will fail to reach orbit but I find it almost certain that when it does return pictures of the landing sites (again, not its primary mission) you will deny that evidence too.

    As for the space station, i don’t even know were to begin, but even if you insist on denying every picture to come out of NASA, there have been plenty of beautiful amateur pictures taken. like this: http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap090410.html or this: http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap060921.html. Hell I’ve even seen the frame of the ISS through good binoculars. But then again I’m probably a zionist right?

  29. ethanol

    George:
    two words: Occams Razor

  30. Pax Arcana

    Yawn. Somebody wake me up when Buzz Aldrin punches Neil in the face.

  31. jamerz3294

    Neil~ give it up dude. Your ignorance is overwhelmed only by your propensity to make an ass of yourself. Now go outdoors and play in the traffic, and let us adults talk among ourselves…

  32. Ginuel

    The only thing worse than a Moon-Landing Denier is these guys: http://lunaranomalies.com/AS11.htm

  33. Guys, dont feed the Troll.

    Evidence for the Landing and the Holocaust is there. Period.

    We will always find this kind of people that are in deep need for our attention.

    Don’t feed the Troll!

  34. Alex

    gopher65: I am also having problems with the RSS feed.

  35. Neil:
    Aha. Yes, I thought you might bite on that one.

    You seem to be a person with deep issues, the most significant of which is ignorance. You should find a way to educate yourself, and that’s going to mean seeking out sources beyond those you have relied upon, since it’s fairly clear (from here at least) that they peddle only lies.

    You’re right. The truth can withstand any rational inquiry, and so it is with both the moon missions and the holocaust. The problem is that you’re not inquring (and certainly not rationally.) There are answers to all of these questions, you simply have not bothered to seek them out.

  36. I wonder if Neil is a Flat Earther too.

  37. Eccles9

    Will someone please pass the tinfoil to Neil, he seems to have misplaced his hat…

  38. Neil

    “The Captive Mind” is the book written in the 20th Century that inadvertently and metaphorically best explains our present early 21st Century.

    It is interesting to note that the minds of hundreds of millions were recently controlled by the dialectic materialistic dictates of Socialist Realism. The Socialist Realism paradigm was dominant and then suddenly self-destructed under the weight of its corrupting lies. Such implosion represents a great beacon of hope regarding the current oppressive degrading paradigm of Zionist Realism.

    I doubt Czeslaw Milosz intended his book to be a guide to understanding the Zionist Realism paradigm under which the United States (and the World) currently suffers but he nevertheless provides great metaphorical guidance to an understanding of our current affliction. It is possible that “The Captive Mind” may eventually serve greater service to humankind as a liberating guide from Zionist Realism than it ever was for Socialist Realism.

    The parallels between Socialist Realism and Zionist Realism are astounding. Fictional Murti Bing is now revealed as non-fictional Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors with essentially the same political purpose. Ketman is still popular among journalists hiding in the cracks of their self-preserving lackluster reporting. Intellectuals (pseudo) at all universities are distinguished by their equal avoidance of addressing the obvious white elephants of Zionist crime.

    To read “The Captive Mind” is to commit a revolutionary act. It may be the equivalent of swallowing the metaphorical ‘red pill’ or a good first step after doing so.

    The four main pillars of Zionist Realism are:
    1. 9/11 was the work of 19 Arabs with boxcutters.
    2. Twelve American astronauts have walked on the moon.
    3. The holocaust happened with six-million Jews methodically exterminated and incinerated on an industrial scale.
    4. The International Space Station is operating with people living aboard.

  39. As someone who grew up across the Indian River from KSC (I could see the VAB from my grandmother’s living room), I find the moon landing denialism quite amusing. I saw every single launch. My dad worked at NASA as a mathematician, as did the fathers of many of my friends. They were all involved in the Apollo program. They are all standing here (virtually) laughing with me right now.

    As for the Holocaust denialism… give it up. History is not on your side.

  40. Patrick

    Fail troll is fail….

  41. Brian

    WHY I DON’T BELIEVE IN NEIL

    Other than some words on this webpage, we don’t have any indication that “Neil” even exists. These days it’s trivially simple to write a computer program that can output text, and I doubt that either that program or the computer it runs on is even named “Neil”.

    Wake up, people! You could be responding to an ultra-intelligent internet-enabled dog, or genetically engineered porpoise, and that’s just what THEY want you to do! Pavlov conditioned unusual behavior in dogs in the early 1900s, and the science has come a long way since then! There are videos on YouTube of cats and otters that can play piano, do you really think they can’t teach a llama to post on blogs?

    I’m on to you, “Neil”, and don’t think for a second you’re fooling anyone with this “I really exist” act. Just tell us the TRUTH, if your programming will allow you to.

  42. IVAN3MAN

    @ Neil,

    Charlie Brooker of The Guardian has you and your ilk figured out:

    So, you believe in conspiracy theories, do you?

    You probably also think you’re the Emperor of Pluto

    I’ve got a theory – an untested, unprovable theory – that the more interesting your life is at any given point, the less lurid and spectacular your dreams will be. Think of it as a balancing procedure carried out by the brain to stop you getting bored to death.

    If your waking life is mundane, it’ll inject some thrills into your night-time imaginings to maintain a healthy overall fun quotient. So if you work in a cardboard box factory, and your job is to stare at the side of each box as it passes along a conveyor belt, to ensure they’re all uniform and boxy enough – and you do this all day, every day, until your mind grows so dissociated and numb you can scarcely tell where the cardboard ends and your body begins – when your daily routine is THAT dull, chances are you’ll spend each night dreaming you’re the Emperor of Pluto, wrestling a 6ft green jaguar during a meteor storm in the desert just outside Vegas.

    All well and good in the world of dreams. But if you continue to believe you’re the Emperor of Pluto after you’ve woken up, and you go into work and start knocking the boxes around with a homemade sceptre while screaming about your birthright, you’re in trouble.

    I mention this because recently I’ve found myself bumping into people – intelligent, level-headed people – who are sincerely prepared to entertain the notion that there might be something in some of the less lurid 9/11 conspiracy theories doing the rounds. They mumble about the “controlled demolition” of WTC 7 (oft referred to as “the third tower”), or posit the notion that the Bush administration knew 9/11 was coming and let it happen anyway. I mean, you never know, right? Right? And did I tell you I’m the Emperor of Pluto?

    The glaring problem – and it’s glaring in 6,000 watt neon, so vivid and intense you can see it from space with your eyes glued shut – is that with any 9/11 conspiracy theory you care to babble can be summed up in one word: paperwork.

    Imagine the paperwork. Imagine the level of planning, recruitment, coordination, control, and unbelievable nerve required to pull off a conspiracy of that magnitude. Really picture it in detail. At the very least you’re talking about hiring hundreds of civil servants cold-hearted enough to turn a blind eye to the murder of thousands of their fellow countrymen. If you were dealing with faultless, emotionless robots – maybe. But this almighty conspiracy was presumably hatched and executed by fallible humans. And if there’s one thing we know about humans, it’s that our inherent unreliability will always derail the simplest of schemes.

    It’s hard enough to successfully operate a video shop with a staff of three, for Christ’s sake, let alone slaughter thousands and convince the world someone else was to blame.

    That’s just one broad objection to all the bull**** theories. But try suggesting it to someone in the midst of a 9/11 fairytale reverie, and they’ll pull a face and say, “Yeah, but … ” and start banging on about some easily misinterpreted detail that “makes you think” (when it doesn’t) or “contradicts the official story” (when you misinterpret it). Like nutbag creationists, they fixate on thinly spread, cherry-picked nuggets of “evidence” and ignore the thundering mass of data pointing the other way.

    And when repeatedly pressed on that one, basic, overall point – that a conspiracy this huge would be impossible to pull off – they huff and whine and claim that unless you’ve sat through every nanosecond of Loose Change (the conspiracy flick du jour) and personally refuted every one of its carefully spun “findings” before their very eyes, using a spirit level and calculator, you have no right to an opinion on the subject.

    Oh yeah? So if my four-year-old nephew tells me there’s a magic leprechaun in the garden I have to spend a week meticulously peering underneath each individual blade of grass before I can tell him he’s wrong, do I?

    Look hard enough, and dementedly enough, and you can find “proof” that Kevin Bacon was responsible for 9/11 – or the 1987 Zeebrugge ferry disaster, come to that. It’d certainly make for a more interesting story, which is precisely why several thousand well-meaning people would go out of their way to believe it. Throughout my twenties I earnestly believed Oliver Stone’s account of the JFK assassination. Partly because of the compelling (albeit wildly selective) way the “evidence” was blended with fiction in his 1991 movie – but mainly because I WANTED to believe it. Believing it made me feel important.

    Embrace a conspiracy theory and suddenly you’re part of a gang sharing privileged information; your sense of power and dignity rises a smidgen and this troublesome world makes more sense, for a time. You’ve seen through the matrix! At last you’re alive! You ARE the Emperor of Pluto after all!

    Except – ahem – you’re only deluding yourself, your majesty. Because to believe the “system” is trying to control you is to believe it considers you worth controlling in the first place. The reality – that “the man” is scarcely competent enough to control his own bowels, and doesn’t give a toss about you anyway – is depressing and emasculating; just another day in the cardboard box factory. And that’s no place for an imaginary emperor, now, is it?

    – Charlie Brooker of The Guardian

  43. Davidlpf

    Neil, here is the truth. The moon landings did not happen but we did send people to the moon. We sent about six million people to the moon in the forties. We faked sending the astronauts to the moon to convince the moon did not have air and there was nothing but rock there. There are actually cities on the moon like Hoagland says and 9/11 was an experiment of their’s gone wrong. The space station is really in space but is a retirement home for the super wealthy.

  44. ethanol

    Okay, I officially apologize for feeding the disgusting troll, and as penance will try to contribute something useful.

    Does anyone know how much of the surface the LRO is planning to survey? I also wonder whether it will be in position to image the LCROSS impact. Not that it necessarily has useful instruments for studying it, I just want more cool pictures.

  45. aReddishGreen

    Neil, as for your opener:

    “Ten American astronauts allegedly walked on the moon before NASA finally got the last two Apollo 17 astronauts to allegedly photograph themselves with their big blue Earth home in the background. But even then, there are problems with those two photographs. They look like fake doctored photos. They’re close-ups with astronauts wrapping themselves in the American flag and they don’t show the astronauts actually standing on the surface of the moon.”

    You try taking a picture of the full moon at midnight and get yourself standing on the ground in the same shot.

    The moon is tidally locked with the earth, which is why we always get the same view of its face. If you look at a map of where the Apollo landings were, they are in locations where the earth would always be at or near the high-noon position, strait up from the astronaut’s point of view. Its impossible to get the shot you are describing unless you were standing somewhere near the edge of the moon from our perspective.

    All any of us would ask is for you to consider your views with a health dose of reason. You can’t take reality away from us. It just doesn’t work that way.

    BTW, I doubt anyone at NASA considers any part of LRO’s mission to be silencing moon hoax believers. There’s just so much more interesting things to do.

  46. Prediction

    Future statement: Here’s everything that you’ve been bitching is missing from the evidence of a moon landing, etc. We finally got it all.

    Response: FAKE! It’s evidence planted by the Jews designed to confuse me. And what about THIS other goalpost?!

    Etc. People, please don’t even bother.

  47. Neil

    It’s an easy enough experiment to do.
    All that’s required is a vacuum pump capable of attaining the high vacuum of 1e-7torr which is the vacuum level of the ISS orbit.
    Replace one of the chamber port openings with a two-chamber fixture with an outer bypass valve connecting both chambers on either side of a membrane made from the material used in the astronaut space gloves. Pump down the chamber with the bypass valve open. When 1e-7 torr is acquired, close the bypass and open a valve to the outer chamber to pressurize it to 5psi. This would duplicate the conditions of a spacesuit on EVA in orbit with 5psi on the inside and near 0psi(1e-7torr~2billionths of a psi)on the outside. If the membrane bursts, the suits are a hoax.

    A simple 5psi differential won’t be an accurate experiment. It has to be 5psi against 1e-7torr. The kinetic particle theory of pressure indicates that the force factor will be significantly different for a membrane separating 5psi from 0psi rather than 15psi separating 10psi.

    It hasn’t been easy to confront these hoaxes. Like most of you, I was once a believer. I was 11 years old when we allegedly landed on the moon and my father worked for Chrysler on the Saturn V boosters. We were space enthusiasts. Ironically, it took 9/11 to liberate me to think for myself and understand the full implications of past Zionist control of my mind.

    I don’t the think the Saturn V lauches were fake and neither are the Shuttle launches but after they go out of sight the hoaxes begin.

  48. T.E.L.

    Neil, you can reduce everything to partisan politics if you want. You’re apparently the sort of person who needs to take sides on issues. That’s all well and good for people who don’t know any better. But there are some of us who don’t need to take sides. We don’t need to believe the Democrats for no better reason than that they aren’t the Republicans. We don’t need to take sides, because we can do the math. We know that it’s possible to travel to the Moon. Even if Project Apollo was a big-ass hoax, it’s STILL possible to build rockets and go to the Moon. It doesn’t matter that you hunger to believe that you’re onto something monumental. If you proved beyond a shred of doubt that the Wight Brothers never really existed, that they never invented the airplane, it would inescapably remain that airplanes exist and that there are those among us who know how to build them. Who invented the boat? No one today knows, yet shipbuilding isn’t a hoax.

    It takes nothing more than some high school math to figure out the rocket equation. Tsiolkovksi figured it out on his own while living in a backwater town in the 19th Century. He could do the math. All of the ingredients for space travel are knowable to most people who care to do so. It’s just a matter of being more interested in independent reality than in childish mythical battles between Good and Evil. Forget about believing. That’s for amateurs.

  49. Kevin

    Wow. An actual white-supremacist who hasn’t taken his prescribes meds.

    And what’s really funny is he chooses this place to post his rants – a place where everyone would be against his rhetoric, and he wouldn’t have a snowball’s chance in heck to sway anyone else to his “cause.”

  50. EnoughAlready

    In the words of Michael Scott, “blah dee bloo dee blah blah.” Why would anyone argue with someone who uses the phrase “Zionist control of my mind” and quotes Star Trek technical manuals? Pretty sure no cares enough to try and control that guy’s mind.

  51. MikeW

    @Neil
    What’s with the repeated mention of Zionists? Are you one of those crackpots who thinks the Jews are responsible when your milk goes sour a day earlier than the best before date?
    I may not agree with Israel’s tactics regarding settlements in the Palestinian territories, but I don’t think there is a worldwide conspiracy by them to fake moon landings, blow up the world trade center, and make Aston Kutcher one of the most popular people on Twitter.

    @BJN
    That was truly a masterful way to call the hoaxers jerkoffs. Onan be praised :P

  52. Wouldn’t it be funny if Neil was actually Neil Armstrong?

  53. T.E.L.

    ethanol Said:

    “Does anyone know how much of the surface the LRO is planning to survey?”

    It’s headed for a polar orbit, so it’ll probably be imaging the entire surface.

  54. Mick

    Gee… I dunno guys, he sure spouted a lot of large complicated words. Normally I base what I believe on 2 things:

    - Does it help build on a massive worldwide conspiracy that every world government is a part of?
    - Does it talk down at me with confusing terminologies and not attempt to answer any questions it raises?

    This bad boy looks like it should fit into my criterias… I’m inclined to believe him, sign me up!

  55. T.E.L.

    It seems that the Jews weigh heavily on Neil’s mind. Maybe he’s on to something. I’ll ask my step-daughter. She’s half-Jewish, so maybe she’s privy to half of their nefarious plans.

  56. ethanol

    T.E.L:

    Yes, but I’m not sure about the field of view of the reconnaissance camera. I think that only a small portion of mars’s surface has been surveyed at high resolution by the mars reconnaissance orbiter.

  57. Neil

    With only a paltry GDP of $200billion and smallish population of around 7million, Israel needs a lot more money than the $3billion in foreign assistance sent to it by the United States each year if it hopes to maintain its state-of-the-art military that includes submarines, the most advanced fighters with the most advanced avionics and weapons systems, armor including tanks and, most of all, an arsenal of 100 nukes.

    Surrounded by enemies one of which, Iraq, fired SCUD missiles at it during the First Gulf War, Israel lacks the resources to defend its Eastern Flank. Thus, it orchestrated a false-flag terrorist attack on the United States on 9/11 to manipulate gullible Americans into a patriotic frenzy that led them into two unwinnnable bankrupting quagmire wars for Israel.

    Some of the money for Israel is acquired from that allocated for a space program. Only $millions are required for cheap props and fake made-for-slaves space photos and space video while the $trillions allocated are sent to our master Israel.

    It sucks to be a slave.
    It sucks to be a Nation of slaves.
    Dare to be FREE of your Zionist chains.
    Liberate thyselves with the TRUTH.

  58. Josh S

    Re:Mike

    As a Jew, I can tell you you are wrong. We did conspire to make Ashton Kutcher the #1 celeb on Twitter.

  59. zether

    Ummmm, on the 9/11 thing it was actually Clinton who was president when Bin Lauden declared war on the US. Bush was aware of the Bin Lauden threat. I was not acted upon by either president.

    As for the rest of it, Kevin is right you seriously need a med check Neil. The holocost was very real, the space program very real.

    Next thing you know he will telling us that the United States of America doesnt exist, the earth is flat cause the bible says four corners, etc, etc, etc. However, Neil you are entitled to your views and to express them, this is after all american and not Iran.

    Though I wonder if in your world I would be allowed to believe in my own religion, speak my mind freely and marry any one I choose.

  60. Dr Love

    Neil, I just got off the phone with NASA and they suggested you stop posting because your ignorance is killing babies.

  61. Ben Mortimer

    Neil, with regard to your holocaust denial, the argument that there weren’t enough gas chambers to have carried out the holocaust is unfounded. Most of the Jews killed during the holocaust were shot. While the gas chambers obviously stick in people’s minds, the accounted for only a small proportion of those killed.

    As for their existance, there are not only photograhps of the chambers themselves, but in many locations around Germany, Austria and Poland they are still there. In addition to this we have first hand accounts from people on all sides that they were used as a tool for murder.

  62. Neil

    Please, Please, Please!

    Please educate yourselves to distinguish between Zionists and Jews.

    The first thing you have to understand is that a Zionist is not necessarily a Jew. Although many Jews are Zionists, not all Jews are Zionists and not all Zionists are Jews. Barrack Obama is a Zionist. Joe Biden is a Zionist. Reverend James Hagee is a Zionist. Reverend Pat Robertson is a Zionist. Nancy Pelosi is a Zionist. John Conyers is a Zionist. etc.

    But many Jews actively and effectively oppose Zionism. According to the Torah they say Zionism and a Nation of Israel are abominations before God.
    Research Neturei Karta, http://www.nkusa.org/ or
    Jews Against Zionism, http://www.freewebs.com/jewsagainstzionism/ or Jews not Zionists, http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

    Judaism is a religion. Zionism is a crime. Zionists are organized Talmudic criminals.
    Jews are not a separate race. The only two groups that have ever consistently maintained that Jews were a separate race are Zionists and Nazis.

    Zionists use Jews. A Zionist will always hide behind Jews if attacked. Zionists have always tried to equate Zionism with Judaism. Any attack of Israel or Zionism is always followed by a knee-jerk reflexive response that the attack is anti-Semitic against Jews.

    Zionism is an evil political movement that advocates the establishment and preservation of an apartheid Zionist Nation of Israel on stolen Palestinian land. Although populated by many Jews, Israel has little to do with Judaism which accounts for its opposition from many anti-Zionist Jewish organizations who correctly understand that Zionists have incited anti-Semitism.

  63. Neil

    To help place it in perspective, try to pretend the Sicilian mafia used bribes, intimidation, blackmail and other crime including murder and terrorism to get the UN to authorize the creation of a separate homeland for Italians on the coast of Ireland and any time they were criticized they accused their critics of being anti-Catholic. Naturally, they would be in conflict with all the people and nations around them because they stole the land they lived on. The Irish especially would be peeved since many would’ve been forced off their land into refugee camps. Worse, the amount of territory claimed by the Sicilian mafia would continue to grow as their abuse of the surrounding Irish population worsened. Fortunately, there would be some Italian Catholic groups that opposed the Sicilian mafia with their false claims of representing the views of Italian Catholics. The Sicilian mafia would resort to ever greater and more sinister crimes to preserve their crime base. They would control media. They would infiltrate governments. They would control militaries, banks, corporations, universities, etc. to program people into a pro-Sicilian mafia viewpoint. They would manipulate and write false history to encourage sympathy and spread false guilt about the alleged abuse of Sicilian Catholics.

    The word “Zionism” was created by Nathan Birmbaum in 1890. The Zionist Movement was started by Theodor Herzl in 1897. A long period of slow migration of Zionist Jews to Palestine started.

    Have you ever wondered why the Germans hated the Jews?
    You must wonder. I know when I was a kid that I always asked that question but never got a satisfactory answer.
    “Hitler needed a Jewish bogeyman to unite the German people.”
    “Hitler once caught the clap from a Jewish prostitute.”
    “The doctor that unsuccessfully treated Hitler’s dying mother was a Jew.”
    “Jews rejected Hitler’s application to the Vienna School of Art.”
    “Hitler got beat up by Jews when a kid”
    Etc. I couldn’t buy any of it.

    It wasn’t until recently that I learned why Germany, the most technically and culturally advanced country in the World at the time would suddenly turn on its Jewish population that was comfortably entrenched in the German middle class after previous generations had escaped into the welcoming safety of civilized Germany from the frequent Jewish pogroms of violent Czarist Russia.
    A Jew, Benjamin Freedman, a former Zionist, gave a speech in 1961 to a Washington D.C. audience. It was recorded. You can listen to it here:
    http://www.erichufschmid.net/TFC/Ben_Freedman.html

    Basically, he explains that U.S. President Woodrow Wilson was blackmailed and manipulated by Zionists including Jewish Zionist U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis to send American troops to Europe to fight against Germany in 1917 even though his entire 1916 election platform for a second term was based on keeping the U.S. neutral. The Zionists did this because Germany was about to win WWI in 1916. Germany in 1916 wanted to end the war so they offered the French and British a very generous “status quo ante bellum” deal. “Let’s call it off. Let’s all go to the same border we were at before the war. It’s all been a huge mistake and huge tragedy. Let’s end it.” But American and German Zionist bankers seeing an opportunity went to the British and told them that if they continued the war, the Zionists would get the USA to enter on the side of the British if the British would sign the Balfour Declaration. The Balfour Declaration documents support by the British for a Jewish Homeland in Palestine without giving any details on how it would happen. You can just imagine what the Germans thought after their defeat when Balfour details emerged and they began to understand why the Americans entered the war. The lower, middle and upper classes of Germany were all in tragic agreement that Jews had sold them out, betrayed them, nearly destroyed them. Hitler was a consequence. Life for good Jews in Germany would tragically, regretably and unjustly never be the same.

    It’s also not taught in American history classes how Zionists manipulated eruptions of anti-Semitism in Germany to accelerate desired emigration of Jews to Palestine. Check it out, Jews declared war on Germany in 1933 long before the German government began persecuting Jews.
    http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/articles/jdecwar.html

    Zionists are organized criminals who will resort to any criminal actions including terrorism to achieve their goals. They blew up the King David Hotel in 1946 killing 91. They attacked the USS Liberty in 1967 in a failed false-flag operation killing 34 American sailors and wounding 187. They blew up the Marine Barracks in Beirut in 1983 killing 307. They blew up Khobar Towers in 1996 killing 20. They blew up the American embassies in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam in 1998 killing 223. They attacked the USS Cole in 2000 killing 17. They attacked the World Trade Center and Pentagon in a successful false-flag operation in 2001 killing 3000 Americans and effectively manipulating gullible Americans into sending another 4000 to their early deaths in illegal preemptive bankrupting wars for apartheid abomiNation Israel.

    The holocaust is a creation of Zionists.

    All United States Citizens and all lovers of liberty everywhere should immediately incite university strikes demanding Congressional legislation for an independent, fully funded and fully empowered 911 investigation. The United States should plan to peacefully deconstruct Zionist Israel out of existence immediately. Israel is the greatest and most dangerous enemy the People of the United States have ever had to confront. Israel is the enemy and they are amongst us. Almost all American universities are Zionist outposts. Be careful.

    We need the help of good Jews in this fight. Probably nobody has suffered more at the hands of criminal Zionists than them. Let’s not repeat the mistakes of the past. Focus on the enemy; focus on Zionists.

  64. Davidlpf

    Someone track down Neils IP he needs some meds.

    Neil simple question you watched “Loose Change” and believed it right?

  65. Linda N.

    Neil,

    Really?

    …..

    Really??

  66. Davidlpf

    How about baiting the troll?

  67. T.E.L.

    ethanol Said:

    “Yes, but I’m not sure about the field of view of the reconnaissance camera. I think that only a small portion of mars’s surface has been surveyed at high resolution by the mars reconnaissance orbiter.”

    That’s true. All I can say is that polar orbit can potentially allow a through mapping, if the mission lasts long enough.

  68. Davidlpf

    How about taunting the troll?

  69. EnoughAlready

    The crazed anti-Semite posts willy-nilly and my comments have to be moderated?

  70. Mooselet

    Neil,

    You’re absolutely right – we’re all part of a huge conspiracy and we’re out to get YOU. Yes, YOU! Because you are so important. You’ve figured it all out. And since we’re all part of a New World Order (I knew you were going to get to that one eventually) we can, obviously, track you. So quick – turn off your computer, disconnect the phone lines, slip on your tin foil hat and hide in a dark room until it’s safe… which, since we control the ENTIRE WORLD, should be about never.

    Is he gone yet? Because while his delusions and paranoia are mildly entertaining, it gets old quick.

  71. It might be easier if we just determine what conspiracies Neil doesn’t believe in. So far he’s proposed that the Holocaust is a lie, the moon landings were a lie, 9/11 was perpetrated by Israel…what are we missing?

    I’m assuming we can go ahead and check off NWO/Trilateral Commission/Bilderberg Group. Probably that Obama is either Muslim or not American, likely both. CIA was behind the JFK assassination? Certainly, but how many other shooters were there? Chemtrails? That Dubya Bush was behind the 2004 tsunami or Hurricane Katrina? AIDS is a manmade disease, or at least was spread by the CIA to blacks and homosexuals? The Communists were flouridating our water…

    …no, that one’s just silly. Everyone knows that Communism was just a red herring

  72. T.E.L.

    Speak for yourself, Neil. You may be the only slave here. Speaking for myself, I don’t let others tell me what to think (that includes you). I figure things out on my own.

  73. Ian

    @Neil:

    Hey no fair! You can’t hog all the conspiracy theories to yourself! Let some of us play, too!

    Oh well, at least I still have my chemtrails. You don’t…. believe in chemtrails, do you?

  74. Wow. Neil is a piece of work. I guess the hundreds of hours of NASAtv EVAs and space walks to the Hubble, ISS, the shuttles were all in a pool at Houston? Especially the ones inside the ISS.

    The cost of faking all of that would rival going there. Especially the construction of KSC and the launching of those fake rockets to no where. I suppose the Apollo CMs splashing into the ocean were dropped from B52s? And the Russians were in on it with Mir? Don’t you think the Russians would have outted the Americans during the cold war if it was all fake? And what of the astronauts that died on Columbia and Challenger? Or the oxygen fire on the pad that killed Grissom, White and Chaffee? You are doing a disservice to their memories by bloviating all this crap and tossing in ‘facts’ to counter the NASA ‘fiction’.

    To counter your conspiracy with another, don’t you think the Aliens from Roswell in Area 51 would have provided NASA the technology to get into space? Or would that only have been supplied to the Airforce for the secret military shuttle operated by the Skull and Bones society for the Masons?

    And I am not even going to dignify your Holocaust rants by replying to it.

    I hope when you pass away some day(from natural causes of course), someone pays to shoot your ashes into space. I think that would be quite ironic.

  75. John T

    Neil P. Baker of Kennewick, Washington. “Reviewed” The Captive Mind at Amazon (0 of 6 found it useful)

    Amazon profile – http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/A2K43JHIU8SXAY

    Favorite movies: 1. Matrix 2. Bladerunner 3. The Black Stallion 4. The Last Temptation of Christ 5. Fightclub 6. Auntie Mame(1958) 7. Twelve Monkeys 8. The Minority Report 9. Mysterious Island(1961) 10. Robinson Crusoe on Mars(1964).

    Auntie Mame? The Black Stallion? What a sweet, f’d up boy.

  76. WendyR

    Ah, yes. The REAL truth is that Jews weren’t incinerated, they were shuttled up to the moon and have been living off of its green cheesy goodness for the past umpteenth years.

    Neil, you’re a genius. *snort*

    I suppose the Germans are in on the hoax, too. “Ach, let’s build fake concentration camps to attract tourists, to ‘remind’ them of the ‘terrible things’ that happened here. Because, you know, it’s cool to reinforce the idea that atrocities happened here. Even if they didn’t!”

    Really, Neil, I’m insulted by your degree of cranial-rectally challengedness. First of all, get off your lazy, conspiracy-theoried ass and get on a plane to Germany. Go see Dachau, and THE OVENS THEY USED TO KILL PEOPLE THAT ARE SITTING IN PLAIN SIGHT. If you can’t ask about the Holocaust, why are you allowed to tour the concentration camps? Also, go read some of the Nuremberg Trial testimony that is from a more impartial source, not your hate-spewing crap books.

    And finally, you moronic waste of cytoplasm, not every victim of the Holocaust were killed by incineration. They were shot, frozen and starved to death as well.

    I’m not even going to go into your fake moon landing crap. You’re an insult to the brilliant and brave people worldwide who have given so much (including their lives!) for a chance to LEARN about our universe.

    [word deleted by The Bad Astronomer]

  77. Lars

    The LRO should map every square 1/2 metre on the moon, and I just heard on NPR that it will photograph the LCROSS impact as well. I suppose with billions and billions spent on going to the moon and bringing back rocks, er… regolith, NASA assumed it was unneccesary to spend millions on a HighRes camera to photograph what it knows happened, ie, the lunar landings. Just a side note: I’m from Germany, and there aren’t any laws that I know of which ban questioning the holocaust. Of course, one could just go to the many camps, with their ovens (which I have seen). Oh, one can look at pictures of the ovens… or the precise elegant schematics, etc. Oh, as far as photographs of astronauts standing in front of the Earth smiling, as if on a vacation: I’ve been to france, Italy, Germany, Danmark, and many more places but have not 1 picture of me in front of the Eiffel tower, or the Tower of Pisa, or… um, what’s in Germany? The cathedral in Cologne.. what’s in Denmark… really nice, friendly, pleasant people! anyways, I WAS there, or maybe I wasn’t. What with there being no photographic proof of me in front of a well-known landmark! Oh- the Bush administration could not have staged 9-11… they couldn’t even get a helicopter with water to the victims of hurricane katrina! Neil you make my head hurt, time for homeo-pathetic remedies…

  78. Jason Dick

    I have to say I would love to see the Apollo landing sites imaged by the LRO. Would definitely make for a cool image!

  79. I enjoyed the Troll’s diatribe. Particularly that last bit where I could just picture him hopping up and down in his chair while he typed, surrounded by pizza boxes and no-name brand soda cans and bellowing his subjugated conspiracist’s mantra with one clenched fist waving in the air. Wow. Great drama.

    Conspiracists live their lives believing they are surrounded by lies and that they are the unwitting slaves and prisoners of invisible forces. What’s worse, no one will believe in the visions they are experiencing despite their vehemence and confrontational assaults on other’s belief systems. It must be a very sad and desperate existence.

    In the Troll’s very challenge that I recognize and fight back against my oppression I can only wonder at the Troll’s inability to see that it is his own paranoia and fear that is imprisoning him. I’m no one’s slave. I am not persecuted. I don’t worry about global conspiracies surrounding me like a toxic jello soup, strangling my logic and joy in living. Why on earth would I want to enter the Troll’s world except as a bemused spectator of his anguish? Perhaps that makes me one of the “Zionists” and I didn’t even know it. Or perhaps I am one of the so completely oppressed that I cannot begin to perceive my own oppression? Now I’m confused.

    I’m really looking forward to the LRO/LCROSS launch, excited about the new imagery and genuine scientific discovery it will bring, and it never once even crossed my mind, or apparently any of the 200 or so space scientists I follow on Twitter, that the Moon Hoax still needed de-hoaxing by this cool rocket.

    Phil did that years ago.

  80. Neil

    Lars,

    Germany is much more tightly controlled by Zionists than the United States. In fact, Germany is about to become even more tightly controlled as your internet is soon to be heavily censored.

    It’s interesting and very telling that you are unaware of holocaust denial laws. Have you never heard of British historian, David Irving?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial

    You should research Gelmar Rudolf and Ernst Zundel also. If possible, you should pay them a supportive visit in prison.

    Gelmar Rudolf
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germar_Rudolf

    Ernst Zündel
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Z%C3%BCndel

    C’mon man, you know you would have taken the picture. To show your Mutter und Vater.

    Bush didn’t stage 9/11. Israeli Zionists did. Bush and Obama work for them. So does Merkel. And Sarkozi. And Brown. And just about every other major politician in the western world.

  81. Doug H.

    Dude, its not even an original troll. Those comments reek so much of cut ‘n paste, I’m surprised his screen name isn’t ‘Elmer’s’.

  82. Arnold Jamtart

    This is the most crazy I’ve seen since the shaman priestess admonished the Japanese for not asking the Moon’s permission to crash a satellite into it. Those two should get together.

  83. Davidlpf

    Where I set I do not have much entertainment so I take what comes my way and a troll trying convince everyone here the moon landings did not happen is pretty funny.

  84. Pax Arcana:

    Yawn. Somebody wake me up when Buzz Aldrin punches Neil in the face.

    At first, I was wondering why Buzz Aldrin would punch Neil Armstrong, but then I realized that “Neil” was the (possible) troll posting here.

  85. Flying sardines

    Sadly, I get the feeling a Moon Hoax Conspiracy Theory Believer (MHCTBer) is so impervious to logic and evidence he wouldn’t believe we’d landed on the Moon even if he was standing on the lunar regolith himself :

    MHCTBer : “No way man, you just faked the gravity & all!”
    Me: :roll:
    Me: “Okay, this prove it to you?”
    * Takes off MHCTBer’s helmet*
    * Messy explosive decompression, blood freezing / boiling ensues *
    * Low gravity, slow fall of MTCBer’s corpse * Thump!
    Me : “Enough proof for ya at last!” Walks back to Armstrong Base.

  86. Why did the Jews have to do 9/11 when they had already successfully defeated multiple countries at once with less technology?

    It doesn’t make sense.

    The world N presents is wayyyyyy more complicated than the one that actually exists. Not everything is all Da Vinci code and George Clooney movies. What you see is pretty much what you get.

    I guess I drink the Kool Aid, too. Sometimes I forget that steel doesn’t melt.

  87. Flying sardines

    Having terrible trouble posting this for some reason so I’m breaking it into sections to see if I can get it to work. Not sure why but apparently marked as spam maybe because I’ve tried posting it a few times. Also said “duplicate comment” but first one never showed up. :-(

    ***
    (Yeah I know, U shouldn’t feed trolls but still this needs to be said I reckon .,. Not so much for the troll as for those who may take any of the humbug spouted seriously.)

    @ Neil (5, 17, etc ..) (crikey, with a namesake like that – if that is your name – how could you fall for such such garbage?) and the other M oon H oax C onspiracy T heory B elievers. (MHCTBers)

    All these following individuals (most still living) have circled the Moon and many have set foot upon the Lunar regolith (In order of appearance) :

    James Lovell,
    Frank Borman,
    William Anders

    Apollo 8 – circled the Moon – & took the famous ‘Moonrise’ image. How do the MHCTBers explain that?

    Tom Stafford
    Gene Cernan
    John Young

    Apollo 10 – dress rehearsal for Lunar landing.

  88. GeeCee

    @ Neil

    You’re off topic

  89. ethanol

    Lars said: “it will photograph the LCROSS impact as well”

    That should make for an awesome picture, in the vein of the phoenix landing. And perhaps cool science as well, but mainly I just want the picture. In fact, after seeing the footage from kaguya I think that every NASA probe should be required by congress to carry an HD video camera, whether or not it would actually contribute to the scientific mission.

  90. Flying sardines

    Can anyone just imagine being the dude in charge of telling the Apollo astronauts – Buzz Aldrin and Pete Conrad, Jim Lovell and Al Shepherd and the rest :

    “Hey, you know we’ll actually be faking all this so you’ve got to act .. & lie really well .. and then hide somewhere while we somehow fool the Russians and ya gotta keep this so secret and.. ”
    *WHACK! *

    Person telling them this falls over with bloody nose and black eye from Buzz Aldrin’s killer left hook!

    Given human nature and fallibility alone, I think the Lunar landing is far more plausible than the absurd “Moon Hoax” alternative.

    Do Moon Hoax believers really think all these men are lying?

    Do the MHCTBrs have any idea how many people would have to be in on this “conspiracy” with NOBODY ever slipping up or cracking to reveal the “secret”.

    Can the MHCTBers really be dumb enough to think any such baloney is remotely possible?

    I know whose word I’d trust and whose I wouldn’t.

    Besides of course there’s a whole tonne more than just astronauts words – there’s photos there’s experiments, there’s moon rocks and more.

    Incidentally, the Moon rocks obtained by the Apollo missions led to the whole “Big Splash” theory of Lunar formation. They revealed that the Moon was neither captured from independent orbit nor thrown off from the Earth somehow as previously hypothesised but rather formed in the collision between Earth and another planet. That’s at least one major scientific result stemming from the whole Apollo programme.

    I think that all of these twenty-four astronauts named *all* brave and honourable men ( & the many others involved in the Apollo program) are owed an apology by all the MHCTBers. (Incl. “Neil”.)

  91. Flying sardines

    Okay the middle section didn’t work … breaking into smaller components … Sigh. :-(

    ***
    Neil Armstrong,
    Buzz (Edwin) Aldrin,
    Michael Collins

    Apollo 11 – first Lunar landing. Aldrin would later write an autobiography as well as at least one SF novel.

    Charles “Pete” Conrad
    Alan Bean
    Richard Gordon

    Apollo 12 – the second Lunar landing. Alan Bean would later paint many scenes from his Lunar adventure from memory.

  92. Flying sardines

    John Swigert,
    Fred Haise

    Apollo 13 – NASA’s “finest hour” amazing rescue story – which also circled the Moon. Plus again, Jim Lovell who would write a non-fiction book ‘Lost Moon’ detailing his Lunar voyages in 8 & 13.

    Alan Shepherd
    Edgar Mitchell
    Stuart Roosa

    Apollo 14 – third lunar landing – & Al Shepherd was the first American in space with the ‘Mercury’ programme.

    David Scott
    James Irwin
    Fred Worden

    Apollo 15 – fourth Lunar landing

  93. Flying sardines

    Charles Duke
    Thomas Mattingly

    Apollo 16 – fifth Lunar landing. Plus John Young, again. Both Duke & Irwin later became preachers if that carries any weight for those who think preachers are more honest than, say, scientists. NOT a view I hold personally I’ll add, but one I know some do.

    Harrison Schmidt
    Ronald Evans

    Apollo 17 – sixth & so far last lunar landing. Plus again, Gene Cernan. Schmidt, a geologist was the first and only scientist to walk on the Moon, the other astronauts mostly came from air-force or navy backgrounds.

    ****

    Finally. . Sigh. Not sure what was going on there but anyway. Sorry folks. :-(

    ****

    Do Moon Hoax believers really think all these brave and honourable Apollo astronauts are lying?

    Do the MHCTBrs have any idea how many people would have to be in on this “conspiracy” with NOBODY ever slipping up or cracking to reveal the “secret”.

    Can the MHCTBers really be dumb enough to think any such baloney is remotely possible?

    I know whose word I’d trust and whose I wouldn’t.

  94. Flying sardines

    Oh & with all that MHCT humbug & weird ‘computer-messing-me-about-ness’ I almost forgot :

    Best wishes and hoping all goes smoothly from me to the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter team & their probe! :-)

    Incidentally, its already after noon Thurs June 18th here in Oz.

  95. Davidlpf

    Now I what to go home and watch “From to The Moon” again.

  96. MikeW

    Neil may have watched Capricorn One a few too many times – http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0077294/

  97. Joseph Blough

    Uh, Flying Sardines, that would be Al Worden and Harrison Schmitt, surely?

  98. Flying sardines

    So “Neil” – if you are listening and not just a troll or very bad taste Poe..
    Please answer the following questions :

    1) Do you really think all those astronauts I listed for you (and many, many other people) are lying?

    Not just lying, but lying so well about something this BIG that they have never been caught out or had anyone “crack”?

    2) How many people do you think all up are required to do this supposed hoax of yours?

    And

    3) Do you honestly think that many people could keep that big a secret? Or provide such convincing evidence for it such as the unique scientifically useful moon-rocks in such
    quantities? (Far more than an unmanned robot could ever deliver.)

    If not, then how about a simple :

    “Oh I should’ve thought of that!” admission & an apology – not so much to us as to the astronauts you’ve slandered as liars?

    But if so, hah, talk about an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence! :-o

    The Burden of Proof is on YOU – & we’ve yet to see any actual evidence that stands up to debunking. So go on. Put up or shut up!

    … But first check & make sure whatever “evidence” you come up with hasn’t already been debunked by Phil Plait & others (eg. Mythbusters) a thousand times already. Eg. odd shadows, no stars, “waving flag”, ad nauseam..

    As to why there haven’t been any follow up manned missions to moon?

    Well if you really must have a Conspiracy Theory answer to this - & you don’t – then my choice would be the one jokingly proposed by comedian Ben Elton in his black humour SF novel ‘Stark’ :

    The Insanely Mega-Rich bought up all the technology and secretly have their own Apollo “Star-arks” spacecraft ready to emigrate themselves and their chosen elite to the Moon when they’ve fouled up the Earth to the point of Total Toxic Overload.

    (Ben Elton’s term & idea not mine.)

    If its CT you truly want, then Elton’s one makes marginally more sense than that Moon Hoax one…

    But really, you don’t need any CT answer for that.

    Truth is, it cost too much & the political will was gone. The Vietnam War took all the money and effort and the US public (to my way of thinking quite bizarrely) had grown tired of the whole Moon programme. That’s a dreary, sad litle answer which isn’t fun at all but it happens to be true. :-(

    Actually, IMHO, the lack of return missions is probably the main reason for the popularity of the MHCTBers.

    If anything good can come out of the whole Moon Hoax baloney, I hope its that NASA and others finally get frustrated enough to say :

    “Right we’ll prove it – we *will* go back to the Moon and show you fools that it can be done – and was!”

    Besides there’s never been a woman on the Moon and its time that situation was corrected – why the feminists don’t argue for a Moon program on that basis alone is beyond me! ;-)

    Along with more scientists needing to go there incl. an astronomer or two.

    A Far (”dark”) Side Lunar Telescope – Now that’s be a worthy project to follow Apollo and the LRO! 8)

  99. Neil

    I would like to highly commend Discover Magazine for hosting this debate.

    Although many of my postings have been moderated, all of them have been eventually allowed to appear.

    It is a truly extraordinary example of allowing free speech. Thank you.

    I hope it has not been missed by Lars and others that what I have written, if written in Germany, Austria or many other European countries would have resulted in my arrest and probable imprisonment. The existence of outrageous European “thought crime” laws is the reason I fully support the immediate deportation of all Austrian and German foreign nationals in the United States and the severing of all diplomatic relations until they rectify their serious violation of human rights. I think the same about Poland until they allow an international team of forensic experts access to the alleged death camps to confirm the existence of gas chambers.

    There’s a big difference between Americans and Europeans and I think it will always boil down to the fact we have a 1st and 2nd Amendment and they don’t. We may be slaves but only voluntarily and we’re slaves with a pretty good Constitution if only we would insist on its enforcement.

    The Dachau heating plant and modest Aushwitz crematorium do not a holocaust make. If they were shot instead of gassed, where are the remains? If they were gassed, where are the gas chambers? If the holocaust is a fact, then why does TRUTH need the protection of laws? Only lies need the protection of laws.

    It’s not OFF TOPIC because the same criminals that lied to you about the holocaust lied to you about NASA, 9/11 and WMDs.

    Manufucturing space video on Earth is far easier and much cheaper than doing it in the vacuum of orbit, weightless and irradiated. $Millions instead of $trillions.

    I don’t expect anyone to be converted instantly by what I’ve said. My conversion took years. But you’ve been infected and while stuck in traffic or while you shave or while you mow the lawn, what I’ve said is going to slowly work on you like water slowly wearing down hard rock.

    I, too, look forward to continuing this debate next week if the LRO starts sending photos although I still think a major malfunction is more likely.

    Au revoir

  100. Davidlpf

    Neil, the reason you were probably allowed to post here is because you were not a jerk (although some of my comments can be seen that way). But you did not provide evidence, so you did not prove anything.

  101. Petrolonfire

    @66 IVAN3MAN :

    Paraphrasing : “Don’t feed /reply to the troll / let it drop &-or lock the thread …”

    What and spoil everybody’s fun? ;-)

    Nah! Let’s all get stuck in & enjoy the stoush – this has had the most and best comments for a while. :-D

    Much more entertaining in a train-wreck kinda way than the tedious anti-vaxxers, EUers & Cretin ..er ..creationists!

    Some people are so bat-loon crazy its comedy itself to hear /read ‘em .. “neil” is in that “class”.

    Now if we can get a gen-u-ine flat earther to join in somewhere .. ;-)
    —-

    Its why we watch “springer” peeps! ;-)

  102. Messier Tidy-Upper

    Neil:

    It’s not OFF TOPIC because the same criminals that lied to you about the holocaust lied to you about NASA, 9/11 and WMDs.

    Okay lets see now -

    WMDs presumably means the false claims about Saddam’s Iraq having WMD’s made by the lesser Bushes administration which was, indeed, probably influenced by the Israeli lobby via their Neo-conservative political links.

    BUT

    9-11? Hmm … Presuming you mean the September 11th 2001 attacks by Al-Quadea rather than the Slavador Allende CIA coup in Argentina on the same date but a different year, I think Bin laden and the Al-Quaeda mob themselves have confessed to being responsible.

    Did the Republican regimes exploit the event and turn it into a catch-all excuse for their absurd and horrendous “war on terror” … Yes.

    But if you think Bush ‘Dubya” actually organised and orchestrated the attack itself, then no way.

    THEN

    NASA … Huh? That is a very different kettle of fish. NASA is an organisation that has been going since the 1960′s under many different governments and administrators. It has virtually no political ideology or role in running the world – it is purely in the area of scientific space exploration. (Plus aeronautics but that seems to be very much a sideline ..) NASA & manned spaceflight incl. the Apollo missions is apolitical – funded and underfunded by both sides.

    The Bush admin had no particular use for it – aside from some feelgood guff that they probably never meant about a new moon vision and trying to muffle Hansen’s climate change talk. They didn’t start NASA nor were they there when the Apollo program ran. So even granting your highly dubious conspiratorial premsie – how are they – the putative conspirators behind the other two things linked in here? It was before their time!

    I really don’t see the connection there. The WMD’s in Iraqand 9-11 may be linked, arguably, but NASA is NOT.

  103. Blind Squirrel FCD

    I would like to highly commend Discover Magazine for hosting this debate.

    Debate? More like a display of pathology.

    BS

  104. Paul M.

    Neil doesn’t exist – “They” just want you to think he does.

  105. Messier Tidy-Upper

    Continuing from # 103 – in reply to Neil-100 :

    “It’s not OFF TOPIC because the same criminals that lied to you about the holocaust lied to you about NASA, 9/11 and WMDs.”

    Then the Holocaust. Sheesh. Just Sheesh. :roll:

    The Nazis and the Neo-Cons are both far right-wing political movements but jews running the Nazi’s? Somehow getting them to pass anti-Semitic laws and kill jews en masse or appear to have done so for some obscure reason …!!??

    Dude, look up the Nuremberg trials and Eichman’s trial sometime. Try a minimum of research from pretty well anywhere – except Conspiracy Theory Neo-Nazi or Islamist extremist sites that is. :-(

    The Holocaust happened. Its fact.

    Perhaps you could argue its over-emphasised and has become the Jewish excuse for everything. That is arguable, maybe… After all, it wasn’t just Jews that died but also many Russians, Romani/y (“Gypsies”), Communists, German Dissidents, homosexuals, disabled, ad nauseam … And there are many other groups that suffered similar or numerically and chronologically worse atrocities* … but get no museums, memorial days, movies made et cetera. Let alone their own nation.

    But to say it didn’t happen at all. That is just plain wrong.

    That the Holocaust had anything at all to do with NASA – aside from the one exception of Von Braun’s Nazi past with the V2′s – ridiculous.

    That the same “criminals” are responsible for “NASA, 9/11 and WMDs” -

    Well Bush for 9-11 & WMDs – the latter definitely and the former highly, highly dubiously. (Semi-granting “neils” dodgy premise there merely for the sake of argument.)

    But Bush and the neo-cons running the Apollo Moon program (NASA?) or the Holocaust? !

    Nobody could believe that.

    Really. Nobody. * Could * . Believe . That.

    Surely …. ????

    Therefore I call Poe on “Neil”! ;-)

    “Edgar Allen Poe. Rise ye from teh grave my zombie, rise and shine ….”
    AAAaaarrrrrghhh!
    ;-)
    —–

    * Eg. More people died under Stalin and Mao than were killed by Hitler, the Israeli Occupation of Palestine has gone on far longer than the Holocaust, as has the Chinese Occupation of Tibet & Xinjiang, the genocides committed by the Europeans wiped out 100% of many cultures and tribes indigenous to Australia, North & South America, the 13th century Mongols under Kublai Khan butchered populations and cities over a far wider area etc ..

    The Nazi Holocaust of European jews was yet one more sad example of Humanity’s utter inhumanity to humanity over history and , yes, it does seem to be a bit over-exploited and over-hyped to me sometimes. I also wonder whether the victims of the Nazi’s would be turning in their graves at what the “jewish State” has become today esp. regarding its treatment of the Palestineans. :-(

    .. But that is getting off topic and another story entirely again.

  106. TheCore

    NEIL: TERMINATE SCHEDULE F. ABORT.

    56-43-11-223-4-4-1-0-0-0-2-11-1-9

  107. TS

    Nuttiness ensued overnight, I love the smell of nuts in the morning…. I say nuts, I really mean just nut.

  108. Chaosteil

    @Neil:
    Do you really.. Really believe everything you write? Your ignorance of basic human rights like free speech in European countries is astonishing. There has yet to be a person arrested for not saying the right thing, in all of your mentioned European countries. It’s truly amazing how far the human mind can go if he blindly ignores any real evidence and starts living his life by incomplete logic. You remind me of several 6-year olds and their perception of life.

    If you want evidence for all these things that happened, it’s about time you finally start looking at the evidence.

  109. TS

    Oh yeah, I nearly forgot that I did have something to contribute.
    Have no fear about speaking your mind in Europe, mentally ill people get help here.

  110. I can’t beleive I read all the way to the end.

    To stock up on future troll chow, here are a few debunks:

    Yes, the pressure vessle of the LM was about the thickness of an aluminum can (the “walls” outside the pressurized area were only foil). The reason the astronauts weren’t “fried” when passing through the Van Allen belts is that they were in the CM, which was heavily shielded.

    Nice cut ‘n paste on your vacuum experiment, Neil. With a couple of decades expeirence in the high vacuum industry, I can say that you used the right jargon, mostly, but your little materials test shows your basic lack of knowlege. If you are going to test a space suit glove, you better have all 12 layers of mechanical and thermal backup to the pressure layer before delcaring a “burst membrane” proof of the inability to be able to build a space suit. BTW, you don’t need 10 ^-7 Torr (which you would have called “a 7 range vacuum” if you were really in the industry) to prove this. Anything below about 1 Torr would have done. All the lower pressures do is increase the rate of outgassing from the material.

    And as for #99. Flying sardines, that’s the right approach. Put them on the defensive, but your questions weren’t direct enough. I usually prefer:

    1) What evidence do you have of the actual conspiricy? Something this vast can’t be coordinated by phone calls and face-to-face meetings. Where are the meeting notes? Lists of attendees? Everything was kept on paper back then. There should have been tons of notes, schedules, budgets. Please show me even one verifiable piece of paper of even one claim you’re making.

    2) Speaking of attendees, how far up and down the organization did this go? Obviously the head of NASA had to be involved (which was who, by the way?). What about congress? The president? Special Senate subcommitte on pulling the wool over everyone’s eyes?

    3) What about the other direction? The top NASA admisitrators, obviously, but what about the Research Center administrators? Prime Contractors? Sub Contractors? Vendors? How big did the base of the pyramid get? Are you saying that of the hundreds of thousands of people involved at all levels of this program, there wasn’t a single person of conscience?

    - Jack

  111. Kiren

    Neil: “A Zionist will always hide behind Jews if attacked.”
    Now, I may not know much about conspiracy theorists and Zionism and all that BS, but I can spot a hypocrite when I see one. Although the troll writes to protect Jews, he denies one of the greatest atrocities ever commited towards them.
    “His” defense, when critisized, is to ignore it, and continue spewing BS about his “rights”. You’re offending an entire nation, except for the handful of crackpot theorists locked up in padded cells. Hopefully, he’ll join them soon.

  112. Voltaire-o'-2009

    I disagree entirely with what Neil said but will defend to the death his right to say it.

    … & also others to reply to him in refutation.

    BUT

    I will add – there is a point there with the anti-Holocaust denial laws being anti-freedom of speech.

    The Nazi Holocaust happened and was terrible with about 5 million jews dying by starvation, shooting and,yes, gassing too along with many others such as German dissidents, Communists, Gypsies etc.. Saying it did not happen and was a lie is disgusting, is factually wrong and is ignorant and insensitive.

    But merely saying (incl. posting on blogs) something – even something like that – outside of a VERY limited range of circumstances is NOT and SHOULD NOT be considered a criminal offence deservingof imprisonment or fines or whatever other punishment.

    (Being shown to be such a stupid ***** should be punishment enough! ;-) )

    I do think Germany and other places with such Holocaust denial laws are wrong even unethical. I also think such laws arecounter-productive in that they create false “martyrs” and false impressions. (Ie if its true why bar “criticism” of the “stateline.”)

    Let Neil and other crazies like him have their say. Everywhere incl. in Germany.

    Then explain to them -everywhere again – and to anyone who may be listening why they are wrong.

    Sunlight is the best disinfectant and the evidence speaks far louder than the lies.

    And there is no such thing as a right NOT to be offended nor should there be.
    Because almost everything is offensive to somebody.

    @ 59. Jill :

    Dear Neil,

    ….. Go kill yourself, you stupid gawp. My people died by the millions in WWII, in every conceivable fashion, and now, my family fights in Iraq and Afghanistan to protect sludge like you.

    I sympathiese and at least in part understand your anger there but that is pushing the boundaries of free speech in my view.

    How would you feel, really Jill, if you found out that Neil really had committed suicide in part because of your words?

    Really, think about it.

    He is potentially a mentally ill and unstable person judging from his posts.

    I think you need to think twice and harder before making those sorts of statements because while I do believe in free speech with very few exceptions – using it to bully or incite a vulnerable person into taking their own life actually is one of those exceptions. Ethically if not necessarily legally.

  113. Voltaire-o'-2009

    I disagree entirely with what Neil said but will defend to the death his right to say it.

    … & also others to reply to him in refutation.

    BUT

    I will add – there is a point there with the anti-Holocaust denial laws being anti-freedom of speech.

    The Nazi Holocaust happened and was terrible with about 5 million jews dying by starvation, shooting and,yes, gassing too along with many others such as German dissidents, Communists, Gypsies etc.. Saying it did not happen and was a lie is disgusting, is factually wrong and is ignorant and insensitive.

    But merely saying (incl. posting on blogs) something – even something like that – outside of a VERY limited range of circumstances is NOT and SHOULD NOT be considered a criminal offence deservingof imprisonment or fines or whatever other punishment.

    (Being shown to be such a stupid ***** should be punishment enough! ;-) )

    I do think Germany and other places with such Holocaust denial laws are wrong even unethical. I also think such laws arecounter-productive in that they create false “martyrs” and false impressions. (Ie if its true why bar “criticism” of the “stateline.”)

    Let Neil and other crazies like him have their say. Everywhere incl. in Germany.

    Then explain to them -everywhere again – and to anyone who may be listening why they are wrong.

    Sunlight is the best disinfectant and the evidence speaks far louder than the lies.

    And there is no such thing as a right NOT to be offended nor should there be.
    Because almost everything is offensive to somebody.

    @ 59. Jill :

    Dear Neil,

    ….. Go kill yourself, you stupid gawp. My people died by the millions in WWII, in every conceivable fashion, and now, my family fights in Iraq and Afghanistan to protect sludge like you.

    I sympathise with, and, at least in part, understand your anger there but that is pushing the boundaries of free speech in my view.

    How would you feel, really Jill, if you found out that Neil really had committed suicide in part because of your words?

    Really, think about it.

    He is potentially a mentally ill and unstable person judging from his posts.

    I think you need to think twice and harder before making those sorts of statements because while I do believe in free speech with very few exceptions – using it to bully or incite a vulnerable person into taking their own life actually is one of those exceptions. Ethically if not necessarily legally.

  114. Amalekite

    Isn’t it funny how the jews always screech on about the Holocaust while ignoring the hateful drivel intheir own holy talmud where “god” is a racist who chooses only their tribes out of all people on the Earth?

    Or how the Jews forget that while they’ve suffered one failed attempt at genocide they’ve perpratrated many successful genocides themselves – against the Canaanites, Amalekites, Jebusites, Midianites, Philistines and more … and boats aboyut themintheir holy Talmud /torah /mishrah …

    Or how Barack Obama of all people is suddenly being portrayed as an evil anti-semite in Israel by the Jewish fundamentalists for presuring then totalk peace with the Palestineans

  115. Grand Fromage

    Guys everyone knows the Jews invented the moon to abduct white babies and use their blood for bread on Passover, duh. They’re also responsible for Donald Trump’s hairpiece.

  116. Lars

    Thanks Jack! I forgot to mention that the LEM could be made of plastic (ok, not really) since the astronauts weren’t in it during the flight. And to the person who mentioned putting cameras on all the probes: not a bad idea. I heard that NASA wasn’t going to give the astronauts cameras in the CM but let them in the end. We got some of the most amazing shots from those hand-held cams, such as the earth rise over the moon. And I do have a picture of me in front of a land mark! It was taken the same way the Apollo guys would have to have taken it if they wanted the Earth in the shot: I laid the camera on the ground pointing upward, set the timer, and stood over it. I have a great up-wards shot of me under the St Louis arch! So much to refute.. so little time!! There is no thought police in Germany, or any other country I’ve been in. The crime is in inciting public hatred. I doubt even writing such malarky on here would constitute that and even Neil wouldn’t be arrested. Shame. I cannot draw a swastika in Germany, but why the hell would I want to?? And aside from my Vater and Mutter being dead, they know what I look like and don’t need pics of me in front of famous places. OH- more I forgot!! I’ve seen the shuttle numerous times in orbit, I’ve seen the ISS several times also. I saw skylab even! Seen a multitude of satellites from Denmark (where it’s dark). But alas I have no pictures of these things. I guess I didn’t really see them?

  117. Frode

    @Neil Here are the pictures you couldn’t be bothered to google for: http://images.google.no/images?q=gas+chamber&oe=utf-8&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US:unofficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=N-85Su2vBIeE-QaN05S1Aw&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&resnum=1&ct=title

    And please, come to Europe once, I know some people who are dying to show you the inside of one of these. Also, your claim that you would be imprisoned is a lie, but you might be subject to forced medication..

    I know, I know, don’t feed the troll.. but really?

  118. Grand Lunar

    I had no idea the LRO could resolved details so small!

    I hope it’s mission will allow for sufficent mapping of old sites that previous probes have crashed or landed on, not to mention the Apollo sites.
    I’m curious what they’ll look like after so many years of solar exposure. It should be an interesting scientific study for future lunar missions.

    I never would’ve guessed thermal issues would be a reason to delay the next attempt for the shuttle mission. Anyone have any details into that?

  119. Ed Davies

    22. Kevin: “The fueling leak is on Pad B (the main launch pad), and as far as anyone knows Pad A didn’t have the same problems. Now we won’t know, as Pad A is being retrofitted.”

    Interesting point. However, I think you’ve got your pads mixed up. Endeavour’s having the hydrogen leak problems on 39A; it’s 39B that’s being refitted for the Aries program. Endeavour was moved from 39B to 39A between being stood down for the STS-125 LON mission (STS-400) and preparation for STS-127.

  120. EnoughAlready

    @TS oh there’s more than one here. I love the guy who’s talking about Jebus. I don’t even BELIEVE in Jebus.

  121. I won’t give “Neil” the satisfaction of responding to any of his comments, as he obviosuly wouldn’t recognise the truth if it bit him on the ass! ( How very embarrassing, that this retard has the same first name as me – but even more so, that he shares it with Mr. Armstrong himself!!! )
    But I WILL reply to George ( No. 21 ): There was one extremely simple reason, why the Soviet Union abandoned its own lunar landing programme as soon as Apollo 11 had succeeded… because they had LOST THE RACE!!!!! The “Race to the Moon” was exactly that – a race or competition, driven by Cold War politics, to establish technological – and by inference, military – superiority.
    Once the Russians had lost the race, they tried to save political face, by denying that they had ever been IN it; they cancelled their programme, and denied that it had ever existed – though the US had always knownn full well, from intelligence sources, that it did.
    They finally came clean in 1985, under Gorbachev, and released the details to the world – including exhibiting their hardware at the Paris Air Show.

  122. SionH

    Anyone else got this far and realised they’ve forgotten what Dr Phil’s original blog post was about?

    It’s a shame about Neil, he is clearly coherent and probably reads an awful lot. It is just a shame that he has filled his mind with unsubstantiated claptrap rather than rationality.

    Hey ho, at least he’s been civil. Better than most trolls.

  123. @Neil,

    Really? Israel needed more than the billions that the US sends it in aid so it fakes an attack on US soil so that the US will spend tons of money in an unneeded war instead of sending that money to Israel? And the billions in aid aren’t enough, so they get millions from the “fake NASA program”? Who are they, Dr. Evil? “Why get billions when you can get…. millions?!!!” If Zionists really control virtually all of the world’s governments (as you seem to be claiming), why couldn’t they just bump up foreign aid to Israel is a less obvious fashion? (The answer is, of course, because that wouldn’t make for a juicy conspiracy theory.)

  124. Voltaire-09

    I disagree entirely with what Neil said but will defend to the death his right to say it.

    … & also others to reply to him in refutation.

    BUT

    I will add – there is a point there with the anti-Holocaust denial laws being anti-freedom of speech.

    The Nazi Holocaust happened and was terrible with about 5 million jews dying by starvation, shooting, being literally worked to death as slave labour and,yes, gassing too along with many others such as German dissidents, Communists, Gypsies etc.. Saying it did not happen and was a lie is disgusting, is factually wrong and is ignorant and insensitive.

    But merely saying (incl. posting on blogs) something – even something like that – outside of a VERY limited range of circumstances is NOT and SHOULD NOT be considered a criminal offence deserving of imprisonment or fines or whatever other judicial punishment.

    (Being shown to be such a stupid ***** should be punishment enough! ;-) )

    I do think Germany and other places with such Holocaust denial laws are wrong and even unethical. I also think such laws are counter-productive in that they create false “martyrs” and false impressions. (Ie if its true why bar “criticism” of the “state line.”)

    Let Neil and other crazies like him have their say. Everywhere incl. in Germany.

    Then explain to them – everywhere again – and to anyone who may be listening why they are wrong.

    Sunlight is the best disinfectant and the evidence speaks far louder than the lies.
    We all know what the truth is, anyway. Well, make that almost all.
    And there is no such thing as a right NOT to be offended nor should there be.
    Because almost everything is offensive to somebody.

    @ 59. Jill :

    Dear Neil,

    ….. Go kill yourself, you stupid gawp. My people died by the millions in WWII, in every conceivable fashion, and now, my family fights in Iraq and Afghanistan to protect sludge like you.

    I sympathise with, and, at least in part, understand your anger there but that is pushing the boundaries of free speech in my view.

    How would you feel, really Jill, if you found out that Neil really had committed suicide in part because of your words?

    Really, think about it.

    He is potentially a mentally ill and unstable person judging from his posts.

    I think you need to think twice and harder before making those sorts of statements because while I do believe in free speech with very few exceptions – using it to bully or incite a vulnerable person into taking their own life actually is one of those exceptions. Ethically if not necessarily legally.

  125. !astralProjectile

    OTP but WOOT!
    My coworker just got a personally endorsed autographed photo of
    이소연 (Yi So-yeon )

  126. Plutonium being from Pluto

    @ 42. IVAN3MAN :

    @ Neil, Charlie Brooker of The Guardian has you and your ilk figured out:

    So, you believe in conspiracy theories, do you? You probably also think you’re the Emperor of Pluto

    As a loyal Plutonian can I just say, hang on a minute there, my planet doesn’t want him either – & nor does Charon, Hydra (Both our Plutonian moon and the eponymous constellation) or Nyx! ;-)

    In fact you could say Pluto has Nyx-ed the idea of having any empires whatsoever. ;-)
    Empires and Emperors always tend to turn very nasty- if indeed they didn’t already start out that way.

    Pluto is a well functioning Athenian style* democracy thankyou very much & has NO emperor.

    Outside of Earth, I do believe the only empires with Emperors heading them in our solar system are located a little above Uranus. ;-)

    *******

    * Except without having slaves and with a far wider citizenship – incl. all nine genders naturally!

    PS. Any word on whether the Lunar Reconnosance Orbiter has been launched yet or not, there’s a party of Plutonian tourists in a cloaked ship near Mare Frigoris who want to know when to look up! :-)

  127. Caleb Jones

    From interacting with the people who claim the moon landing was a hoax, my experience has been that they believe that way simply because it is controversial. They seem to get off on the attention it brings. I personally think it is a horrific insult to the astronauts who gave and lost their lives to the Apollo program.

    I recently watched “In the Shadow of the Moon” a thinkfilm production. Very good film for anyone interested. During the closing credits they have interviews with several of the astronauts talking about the moon hoax. Some of the comments paraphrased:

    “If going to the moon was a hoax, why did we feel the need to do it multiple times?”

    “I don’t know of two human beings who can manage to keep a secret from the rest of the world, let alone thousands of people who were involved in the Apollo program.”

    “Nobody can take the reality of the experience I had away from me.”

  128. Charles Boyer

    We went to the moon, but that will never cure the delusions of fools and the mentally ill.

  129. T.E.L.

    Caleb,

    You’re right. I’ve argued with many of them, and over the years it’s gotten plain to me that they don’t care if anyone has been to the Moon. What they want is to control something. Apollo is ripe because [1]- it’s usually considered an object of pride for the United States, a world superpower with a less than sparkling international reputation, and [2]- it’s hard to prove that anyone has been there outside of plausibility arguments: the hardware is purportedly on the Moon, away from our eyes. All anyone can do is explain why it’s more likely that it’s real than unreal. So, by telling people that it’s fake, the conspiracists think they’ve stolen something of value. It’s a control issue.

  130. Voltaire-09

    Oops! Sorry about the multiple posts to y’all. :-(

    It wasn’t coming through so I kept trying to post it – Moderators please feel free to delete all but my last post there if you like.

  131. Amalekite

    @ 122. EnoughAlready:

    @TS oh there’s more than one here. I love the guy who’s talking about Jebus. I don’t even BELIEVE in Jebus.

    You clearly weren’t paying attention “Enough Already.”

    NOT Jebus as in the retarded slang for Jesus but rather the Jebusites – an entire group of people who used to live in Jerusalem until “King David” decided they should all be exterminated -which he and his people boasted of doing in that massively oversized race hate pamphet called the Torah /Talmud /Old Testament. Only then did the “ethnically cleansed” Jew only Jerusalm become Davids capital.

    “King David” incidentally took over from “King Saul” after an episode where Saul was too merciful and failed to complete the “divinely-ordered” genocide of the Amalekites by sparing the life of the Amalekite King then an unarmed prisoner. The jewish “prophet” Samuel then appeared and launched a huge racist diatribe against Saul telling him he’d lost “god’s favour, the kingship and his life – and his sons life too” for that act of limited compassion. Then Samuel murdered and butchered the unarmed imprisoned Amalekite king on the spot in an act of bloodthirsty racism thats right there in your Bible for all to read.

    That was how one act of complete and utter, successful genocide was executed by the Jews – so where are the movies, books, museums, memorial days and so forth for the murdered Amalekite peoples – and so many other victims of jewish fundamentalism?

    BTW. ‘Amalekite’ is not only the name I’ve taken here – its also how the Israeli settlers refer to the Palestineans and also is a derogatory term jewish rabbis use for atheists.

    Now I ran a bit short of time with my last post so it suffered on the editing so I’llrestate clearer again :

    Ins’t it funny how the Jews forget that while they’ve suffered one failed attempt at genocide they’ve perpetrated many successful genocides themselves?

    They were the victim of one failed attempt by the Nazi’s to wipe them out.

    Yet they suceeded in wiping out – and boasted about doing so supposedly at the direction of their evil, vengeful, jealous war / sky god “Yahwah /Jehovah” :

    1) the Amalekites,
    2) the Canaanites,
    3) The Jebusites,
    4) the Midianites,
    5) the Moabites,
    6) the Philistines,
    7) the Amorites
    8) the supposed “pre-Noahian culture
    9) the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah

    & are currently trying to wipe out

    10) today’s Palestineans …

    The Jews record of hatred towards their fellow Semites and the rest of Humanity (they call non-jews “goyim” or “gentiles” and treat them – ie all the rest of us – as utter rubbish unfit to marry them, to trust, to live with, etc ..) is despicable.

    The whole religion of Judaism is based around the vile lie of a racist god and self-serving clearly made up bunk about tehir beinga “promised land” for this “chosen people.”

    Judaism is the only Abrahamic religion where the emphaiss is not on belief – not the 5 pillars of islam such as saying the shehadeh ie “There i s no god but Allah and Mohammad was his prophet”, giving alms and visiing Mecca etc .., or accepting Christ invaptism or anythinglike thatbutrather through birth alone -and only on the mother’s side at that.

    Judaism is essentially nothing less than an overgrown race hate cult of its own and it sure has a lot of nerve accusing others of “racism” and “anti-Semitism” whenyou see what is written in that bilious, malevolent, unethical, evil tripe attacking all other races and especially advocating genocide of its Semitic neighbours both hstorical and regional today.

    (Yes, Arabs and Palestineans are Semitic too - Israel hypocritical in everything is in fact the worlds worst anti-Semitic state.)

    Jews are themsleves racists, themselves anti-Semites, themselves behave like nazis and daleks.

    I find it astonishing and disgusting that such an evil, nasty and ugly set of doctrines as those that make up judaism could get “sacred cow” status and go unquestioned and unchallenged for so long.

    But don’t just take my word for it.

    Richard Dawkin’s nailed the jewish god “Yahwah” or “Jehovah” as he’s variously named, perfectly in his description in The God delusion duiscussing the Biblical Old testament – l’ve lent my copy out or I’d quote it verbatim here but Dawkin’s speaks out stronger than anything I’ve said and is very much spot on.

  132. 39. Brett McCoy Says:

    As someone who grew up across the Indian River from KSC (I could see the VAB from my grandmother’s living room), I find the moon landing denialism quite amusing. I saw every single launch. My dad worked at NASA as a mathematician, as did the fathers of many of my friends. They were all involved in the Apollo program. They are all standing here (virtually) laughing with me right now.

    Ah, another ‘conspirator’… I grew up in Melbourne (Okay, it was originally Eau Gallie, but was absorbed by Melbourne, IIRC).
    My father worked with Bendix (all the elevators in VAB, etc.) and sat at one of the consoles we all (Okay, those old enough to have watched it live, and in photos)saw in the views of the control room in the VAB.

    41. Brian Says:
    WHY I DON’T BELIEVE IN NEIL
    Wake up, people! You could be responding to an ultra-intelligent internet-enabled dog, or genetically engineered porpoise, and that’s just what THEY want you to do!

    It could be cats… I recently read a ‘documentary’ titled Cats In Cyberspace (Beth Hilgartner ISBN: 1892065444)

    43. Davidlpf Says:
    Neil, here is the truth. The moon landings did not happen but we did send people to the moon. We sent about six million people to the moon in the forties.

    Actually, the Nazi’s went to the Moon in 1945, there’s even a documentary being made:
    ironsky.net :)

    68. Davidlpf Says:
    How about baiting the troll?

    With a Master Troll, we would need a… never mind.

    J/P=?
    this is fun!

  133. “LRO will take several days to get to the Moon, but once there, and after its shake-down, it’ll return wonderful data of our satellite, including images with details as small as 50 cm (18 inches)! I cannot wait to see those. Wow.”

    I feel exactly the same way.

    Does anyone know what the schedule is for releasing LRO images? I was wondering if there will be a period where the pictures are redacted to give specific researchers time to publish their findings before general release?

    Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I think something like that is done with Hubble pictures.

  134. Neil: I’d like to know your stance on professional wrestling- spontaneous or scripted?

  135. Neil

    Re14. T.E.L. Asks:
    It’s interesting that you don’t accuse the original Lunar Orbiter program of being a hoax. I wonder why the super-intense radiation belts didn’t fog up LO’s *film*?
    I haven’t mentioned anything about radiation belts. I think it strange that so little reliable information is available about radiation levels but it is my understanding that space radiation is primarily beta radiation which can easily be shielded.

    Re24. T.E.L. Asks:
    So, since the ISS really is on orbit, what makes you think a few people are beyond rocket technology’s abilities? Perhaps you think that no one has ever done an on-orbit EVA. After all, the thermal problems at LEO are pretty much like those on the Moon. How do you suppose all those robots have been managing their temperatures, both so close and so far away from Earth and the Sun? Are you saying that all space travel has been a decades-long hoax?
    I’ve not said people are beyond rocket technology. I’ve emphatically stated that the Saturn V and Space Shuttle launches actually happened. It would be impossible to fake something like that but once they go out of sight, the hoaxes start. What robots? All orbital and moon EVA’s are hoaxes.

    Re67. Linda N. Asks:
    Neil,
    Really?
    Really??
    Yes, TRULY. Reality is agreement of what happened. TRUTH is what happened.

    Re73. greg Asks:
    It might be easier if we just determine what conspiracies Neil doesn’t believe in. So far he’s proposed that the Holocaust is a lie, the moon landings were a lie, 9/11 was perpetrated by Israel…what are we missing?
    I challenge all of the conspiracies below:
    9/11 was the work of 19 Arabs with boxcutters,
    twelve American astronauts walked on the moon,
    the International Space Station has people on board,
    six-million Jews were methodically exterminated and incinerated on an industrial scale,
    TWA Flight 800’s center fuel tank exploded,
    American flight 587 crashed at Rockaway Beach due to loss of the tail section from flying in wake turbulence but it wasn’t necessary to ground or retrofit any duplicate airplanes, JFK was killed by Oswald,
    MLK was killed by Ray,
    RFK was killed by Sirhan,
    Senator Paul Wellstone wasn’t assassinated,
    JFK jr. stalled his airplane,
    GWB won in 2000,
    GWB won in 2004,
    electronic voting isn’t corrupted,
    we need 13 aircraft carriers,
    WMDs exist in Iraq,
    Iran will nuke us if we let them,
    Madrid train bombings were the work of Al Qaeda,
    London 7/7 subway bombings were the work of Al Qaeda,
    the USS Cole attack was the work of Al Qaeda,
    Israel has a right to stolen Palestinian land,
    AIPAC and media Zionists don’t rule and control the USA,
    Bush biographer James Hatfield committed suicide,
    journalist Gary Webb committed suicide by shooting himself twice in the head while writing a book about 911,
    Hunter Thompson while writing a book about 911 committed suicide while talking to his wife on the phone,
    Bush rape victim Margie Schodinger committed suicide,
    911 activist Michael Zebuhr was randomly murdered in Minneapolis,
    Tim McVeigh blew up OKC Federal Building,
    Branch Davidians fired first and lit the fires at Waco,
    the recent gel bomb scare wasn’t a hoax,
    American Universities aren’t giant welfare programs for overpaid underachieving PhD faculty who redundantly teach all across the nation uninspiring virtually worthless courses,
    the International Space Station is internationally funded and is a wonderful project,
    the attack of the USS Liberty by Israel was an accident despite the testimony of the Captain, Officer of the Deck, most of the crew and two Israeli pilots.

    Re100. Flying sardines asks:
    1) Do you really think all those astronauts I listed for you (and many, many other people) are lying?
    Not just lying, but lying so well about something this BIG that they have never been caught out or had anyone “crack”?
    Yes, they are liars. Some have been killed. All have been paid well for their silence.
    2) How many people do you think all up are required to do this supposed hoax of yours?
    I don’t know but probably far fewer than you would imagine.
    And
    3) Do you honestly think that many people could keep that big a secret? Or provide such convincing evidence for it such as the unique scientifically useful moon-rocks in such
    quantities?
    They have and they do but I’m hopeful Neil Armstrong will finally make a confession on July 20, 2009. How do you know a moonrock is a moonrock? Do you believe it because somebody told you to believe it?

    Re110. Chaosteil asks:
    Do you really.. Really believe everything you write?
    Yes, unless I purposefully write fiction which I haven‘t on this blog.

    Re112. Jack Hagerty asks:
    Anything below about 1 Torr would have done. All the lower pressures do is increase the rate of outgassing from the material.
    I assume the membrane would be made of the same complete sandwiched materials in a glove. If you have access to a high vacuum chamber, I encourage you to perform the experiment.

    1) What evidence do you have of the actual conspiricy? Something this vast can’t be coordinated by phone calls and face-to-face meetings. Where are the meeting notes? Lists of attendees? Everything was kept on paper back then. There should have been tons of notes, schedules, budgets. Please show me even one verifiable piece of paper of even one claim you’re making.
    Similar to 9/11, there’s a preponderance of evidence but, unfortunately, no proof. Actually, the presence of nanothermite in the WTC dust has been confirmed by independent investigation as published in the Open Chemical Physics Journal.
    http://www.bentham-open.org/pages/content.php?TOCPJ/2009/00000002/00000001/7TOCPJ.SGM
    Granted subpoena power, an independent, fully funded and fully empowered investigation could acquire proof of the Apollo hoax. I could acquire it in a day.

    2) Speaking of attendees, how far up and down the organization did this go? Obviously the head of NASA had to be involved (which was who, by the way?). What about congress? The president? Special Senate subcommitte on pulling the wool over everyone’s eyes?
    Again, unknown without subpoena power

    3) What about the other direction? The top NASA admisitrators, obviously, but what about the Research Center administrators? Prime Contractors? Sub Contractors? Vendors? How big did the base of the pyramid get? Are you saying that of the hundreds of thousands of people involved at all levels of this program, there wasn’t a single person of conscience?
    Good questions that deserve answers. It’s obvious to me and an increasing number of others that 9/11 was a Zionist job and yet despite our conscience, we are essentially powerless before the great mass of American slaves that demand delusion. Take this blog as an example.

    Re119. Frode Says:
    June 18th, 2009 at 2:05 am
    @Neil Here are the pictures you couldn’t be bothered to google for:
    I’ve seen those photos. One of them is of the gas chamber at San Quentin and one of the others is a room that was said to be a gas chamber by tour guides at Aushwitz but has since been exposed by curators at Aushwitz as a more recent building built by the Soviet Union that was never used as a gas chamber. Modern forensic techniques are available that could locate and confirm the existence of gas chambers at death camps if they ever existed but they are forbidden. Can you guess why they’re forbidden?

    Re125. TechyDad asks:
    Really? Israel needed more than the billions that the US sends it in aid so it fakes an attack on US soil so that the US will spend tons of money in an unneeded war instead of sending that money to Israel?
    Yes, it takes more than just money to go to war. It takes lives. Israel uses the United States to sacrifice its own rather than Israelis to fight its war for it. Americans are slaves to Israel. It‘s a hard TRUTH to confront.

    And the billions in aid aren’t enough, so they get millions from the “fake NASA program”?
    No, they get trillions from NASA. They spend only millions to fool Americans

    Who are they, Dr. Evil?
    No, but they are wicked criminals.

    “Why get billions when you can get…. millions?!!!” If Zionists really control virtually all of the world’s governments (as you seem to be claiming), why couldn’t they just bump up foreign aid to Israel is a less obvious fashion? (The answer is, of course, because that wouldn’t make for a juicy conspiracy theory.)
    Stealing it through misappropriated allocations is the less obvious fashion. Direct aid would be obvious and Americans would find it unacceptable. Thus the theft.

    Re129. Caleb Jones asks:
    “If going to the moon was a hoax, why did we feel the need to do it multiple times?”
    More missions means more money allocated means more money to be stolen and sent to Israel to build its nuclear arsenal and all they had to give in return were some fake photos and made-for-slaves space video.

    Re136. WFDT asks:
    Neil: I’d like to know your stance on professional wrestling- spontaneous or scripted?
    Don’t know, don’t care, it‘s showbiz

  136. Charlie Young

    So where does the Catholic church fit into all of this?

  137. markogts

    once they go out of sight, the hoaxes start-

    It is typical for small children to confuse visibility of an item with its existence. Around the age of two, they start to realize that things DO exist even if they don’t see them. Grow up. And buy yourself a good telescope and radio receiver.

  138. Mark Hansen

    markogts (139), that’s why I didn’t bother weighing in to the argument. If someone’s hoax hypothesis has rockets magically disappearing after launch, then they’re never going to listen to reality. Either that or Neil has managed the best Poe ever.

  139. I love this saying and I think it SO aptly applies to this thread:

    if we don’t protect free speech, how will we know who the a**holes are?

  140. T.E.L.

    Neil Said:

    “What robots?”

    What do you mean, What robots? Where have you been? We have machines ALL OVER this solar system of ours. There have been robots visiting the planets for decades.

    And If the launches are real, then there’s no reason to fake any of it. If a Saturn 5 can get to orbit, then it can carry a payload along with it. People are as good a payload as any. The rocket doesn’t care what it’s carrying; mass is mass, period.

  141. Rayyan

    Hi, I simply love this debate, it is so so interesting.
    Thanks to all for entertaining me, as I needed this to cool my nerves.
    I have to confess, NEIL has very very sound evidence and he is versing over 100 and some odd professionals here!!!
    Great job, Neil.

    I am now in a shilly shally state….

  142. @Neil
    “Zionist tourists visit but no video or photographs are shared”
    A jew hater thinks ISS is a conspiracy, how original. Click my website link for a photo I took of ISS. I’ve seen photos taken by other amateurs at just the right time to see tiny spacewalkers on the station structure. Oh what’s that? Your vacuum-chamber-it’s-all-a-”zionist”-lie theory is dead wrong? How sad for you.

  143. T.E.L.

    NGCHunter,

    Excellent photo. He got told way up the thread that plain old every-day people can see it and track it. But that’s not to his liking. :)

  144. Charlie Young

    photoshop…at least that is what Neil will say…or they’re just ice crystals.

  145. T.E.L.

    Rayyan Said:

    “I have to confess, NEIL has very very sound evidence”

    I hope you jest.

  146. Brian

    “NEIL has very very sound evidence”

    Yep, his evidence has this sound:

    http://www.sadtrombone.com/

  147. Flying sardines

    @ Neil 157 :

    Re100. Flying sardines asks:
    1) Do you really think all those astronauts I listed for you (and many, many other people) are lying? Not just lying, but lying so well about something this BIG that they have never been caught out or had anyone “crack”?

    Neil : Yes, they are liars. Some have been killed. All have been paid well for their silence.

    Really? What & they never gave even a hint of a clue about this not even to their nearest and deartest of this huge “secret” Really? Sheesh – that sure strains credulity. :roll:

    So you think NASA actually murdered .. well … who .. exactly?

    And your extraordinary evidence backing up this extraordinary claim is ..???

    And they didn’t murder that loud-mouthed nutter Edgar Mitchell because… ???

    (BTW, Neil do you believe what Mitchell says about UFO’s or not? Is it Zeta Reticulan lizard aliens or just Zionist Jews ? Just curious.)

    2) How many people do you think all up are required to do this supposed hoax of yours?
    I don’t know but probably far fewer than you would imagine.
    And
    3) Do you honestly think that many people could keep that big a secret? Or provide such convincing evidence for it such as the unique scientifically useful moon-rocks in such
    quantities?

    They have and they do but I’m hopeful Neil Armstrong will finally make a confession on July 20, 2009. How do you know a moonrock is a moonrock? Do you believe it because somebody told you to believe it?

    I’d hold your breath about Armstrong “confessin”” if I was you … :roll:

    As for how few -well ballpark figure please ..?

    It’d need all the twelve Moon walkers & their six Command Module companions obviously; plus the Soviet Russians who were monitoring the Moon flights and all the Misison Control folks and that’s already … what?

    Surely a ridiculouslly unfeasible number! That’s what! ;-)

    As for the Moon rocks how about because we’ve actually co-related the Apollo samples with other material which we know comes from the Moon and how about the fact that they’ve been studied in great detail and that study has led us to a whole new understanding of the Moon and its formation eg. revealing the “Big Splash” impact theory is most likely cause of Lunar formation for instance .. ?

    As for your earlier prediction about the LRO’s launch failure to conceal the “hoax”- will you now admit you got that wrong ..?

  148. Voltaire09

    @ 141. unquiet_mind :

    I love this saying and I think it SO aptly applies to this thread:

    if we don’t protect free speech, how will we know who the a**holes are?

    Spot on. ;-)

    Plus it has other advantages too …

  149. Amalekite

    If you you want to know why Zionism /Judaism is so horribly appalling know this :

    This is the Jewish state and religion -

    Judaism is a murdering thug in a tank-cross-bulldozer crushing the bones of a beautiful young unarmed peace activist as she stands in front of innocent Palestinean houses and grinding her to death under his monstrous machine. (See Rachel Corrie.)

    Judaism and the evil theocractic military apatrtheid state it runs is a murderous “IDF” pyschopathic killer “soldier” shooting an unarmed journalist in the head for reporting the truth in Gaza. (See Tom Hurndell.)

    Judaisms is the gutless, sadistic cowards in US funded, US purchased fighter jets and tank murdering resistence fighters armed only with stones and their own bodies.

    Judaism is a religion that calls for the slaughtering and suffering of children, women, and men.

    The Jewish people generally are a self-indulgent, self-obssessed, selfish,scheming, lying, manipulating, theiving, evil pack of murderous, pyschopathic, cruel, fanatical, genocidal, racist ******* .

    They have hurt so many. So very many.
    (Incl. me.)

    Their “religion” is nothing more than overgrown tribal hatred given “divine” sanction.

    Their demented evil overgrown tribal racist cult contains all that is worst in all religions and they represent a continual threat to all “goyim” or gentiles” or other non-Jewish Human beings.

    This, this is the inescapable, undeniable, very ugly stark truth.

  150. T.E.L.

    Amalekite Said:

    “Judaism is a religion that calls for the slaughtering and suffering of children, women, and men.”

    Well, I “guess” that “covers” just about “everyone”.

  151. NGCHunter

    “The Jewish people generally are a self-indulgent, self-obssessed, selfish,scheming, lying, manipulating, theiving, evil pack of murderous, pyschopathic, cruel, fanatical, genocidal, racist ******* .”
    Could you get more anti-semetic? I don’t see how. So then amalekite, do you think space travel is a Jewish conspiracy, or is your trolling completely off-topic?

  152. Amalekite

    @ NCG Hunter

    Anti-Semitic?

    Palestineans, Lebanese, Saudi Arabians, Yemenis, Syrians, Egyptians – these are ALSO SEMITES!

    Jews are just one small group of Semites – & here’s news for you MOST SEMITES ARE NOT Jews!

    Being pro–Jewish, pro-Israeli is in fact itself ANTI-SEMITIC!!!

    Ironically enough, the Jews themselves are hypocritically enough the worst of anti-Semites when it comes to all Semitic peoples but their own set of racist, murderous, bloodthirsty, evil tribes.

    The Jewish people are saturated – super-saturated – in the blood of their victims …

    Blood they can NEVER wash off or deny.

    Look up Rachel Corrie. Look up Tom Hurndell.

    Look up the thousands of innocent Palestineans civilians they’ve MURDERED – innocent Children, women and real men.

    Judaism is downright evil.

    Israelis are downright sadistic murdering thugs and scum.

    The evidence is there for all to see.

    Full stop.

    PS. Is Barack Obama a racist and anti-Semite? Jews – the Israelis fundamentalists – claim he is now – just for pressuring Israel into making the very weakest of “concessions”.

    Hah!

    Alledging “Anti-Semitism” – the Jewish weapon of choice in free speech suppressing, truth-denying nonsense.

    You, NCG Hunter need to be more skeptical & less stupidly guillible than that.

    I am Palestinean and I am a SEMITE too.

    BTW. NOT trolling just the truth that needs to be said and heard!

  153. NGCHunter

    “I am Palestinean and I am a SEMITE too.”
    And I am a circus monkey. Anyone can claim to be anything online, I’m not impressed (nor do I believe a word you say). You’re just another jew hating racist. “Palestineans” may be the same race, but I hold the jewish people distinct since they generally came from europe to reinhabit their ancestral land – yes I think palestinean terrorists are generally racists even if their outward appearance is similar – you yourself accuse Jews of being anti-semetic but you claim you’re incapable of it yourself because you’re the same race; you take the cake for hypocrisy. No matter where you come from, the middle east or your mommy’s basement, you’re here to troll. Good job ignoring my question completely btw, that was top troll form. We now return to spaceflight conspiracy discussion, already in progress. Anyone else think ISS and spaceflight in general are hoaxes?

  154. Neil

    Re:142. T.E.L. asks:
    “What robots?”
    What do you mean, What robots? Where have you been? We have machines ALL OVER this solar system of ours. There have been robots visiting the planets for decades.

    Oh, those robots. I’m not aware that they carry any nickel porous plate ice sublimators for cooling like the alleged EVA spacesuits. Don’t you think it strange that in the forty years of allegedly using them, not a single nickel porous plate ice sublimator has been demonstrated in a walk-in vacuum chamber here on Earth? Surely, they must test them before using them in orbit. Things just don’t add up. It’s all wrong. It’s a hoax.

    Re144. NGCHunter Says:
    “Zionist tourists visit but no video or photographs are shared”
    A jew hater thinks ISS is a conspiracy, how original. Click my website link for a photo I took of ISS. I’ve seen photos taken by other amateurs at just the right time to see tiny spacewalkers on the station structure. Oh what’s that? Your vacuum-chamber-it’s-all-a-”zionist”-lie theory is dead wrong? How sad for you.

    As I’ve explained in an earlier post, anyone laying criticism on Zionism is usually reflexively accused of being an anti-Semite or, in your case, a jew hater. It’s par for the course but entirely misrepresentative as have been most of the evasive responses to my posts. I looked at your photo and it’s a nice photo of the prop in orbit. As a photographer, you must wonder why nobody in the near ten years of ISS occupation has yet to take a photo of the ISS on the dark side of Earth in silhouette against a brilliant star-filled universe. Sure, they’d have to adjust the aperture and exposure time and there would be some star streaking but it would be an awesome photo. Don’t you wonder about how little video we see of ISS? Shouldn’t we be saturated with it? Wouldn’t our government want to use the spectacular vantage point to maximize its propaganda value? Wouldn’t networks want to use the sunrise and sunset video from ISS as an opening to its morning shows or evening news? It’s a hoax. The TRUTH is but a simple vacuum chamber experiment away.

    Re149. Flying sardines asks:
    Really? What & they never gave even a hint of a clue about this not even to their nearest and deartest of this huge “secret” Really? Sheesh – that sure strains credulity.

    So you think NASA actually murdered .. well … who .. exactly?
    Gus Grissom, Edward White and Roger Chafee.

    And your extraordinary evidence backing up this extraordinary claim is ..???
    They’re dead. Also, Grissom’s son Scott has identified evidence in the charred space capsule that indicates sabotage as corroborated by Clark Mac Donald, a McDonnell-Douglas engineer hired by NASA to investigate the fire. Betty Grissom, wife of Gus Grissom also believes the three astronauts were murdered. They knew it was a hoax and were going to blow the whistle. They were murdered.

    And they didn’t murder that loud-mouthed nutter Edgar Mitchell because… ???
    His noise is harmless to the hoax

    As for how few -well ballpark figure please ..?
    Ballpark, I’d say a thousand. Astronauts, select control room ground crew, top contractor management and video and photographic fabricators. If secrets weren’t possible, the government wouldn’t go to the trouble of security clearances. The Manhattan Project, F117 Stealth fighter and Cosa Nostra are excellent examples of big secrets by many people being kept secret.

  155. Neil

    As for your earlier prediction about the LRO’s launch failure to conceal the “hoax”- will you now admit you got that wrong ..?

    No, major malfunctions don’t have to happen during launch. There’s still time before the first photos start arriving. Allegedly. I’d feel a lot more comfortable if it was the Japanese, Indians or Chinese taking the photos. The Scientific Method works and NASA taking the photos isn’t independent verification.

  156. T.E.L.

    Neil Says:

    “Oh, those robots. I’m not aware that they carry any nickel porous plate ice sublimators for cooling like the alleged EVA spacesuits. Don’t you think it strange that in the forty years of allegedly using them, not a single nickel porous plate ice sublimator has been demonstrated in a walk-in vacuum chamber here on Earth? Surely, they must test them before using them in orbit. Things just don’t add up. It’s all wrong. It’s a hoax.”

    Ah, but Neil: you haven’t demonstrated a hoax. All you’ve done is show that you don’t understand it. As far as I can tell now, you seem to think it’s feasible to manage the temperature of a package of instruments, yet don’t think the human body’s temperature can be regulated under similar conditions. Tell me this: how do you think the climate on Earth stays within a limited range? Earth is also a body in space, subjected to the same thermal environment as anything else.

    My suggestion to you is to actually do some REAL research into space suit technology. I don’t want to read any more crap about how if YOU haven’t found something, then surely it just doesn’t exist. You’re the one who lamented that you couldn’t find any pictures of the lunar rover being deployed, only for me and one other poster to IMMEDIATELY point you to video of that very thing. It’s freely available on the web, so I gather you JUST DIDN’T LOOK. So don’t tell me you can’t find it. I’ve had access to this sort of thing for decades, and I’m not even in that line of work.

    And one more thing: I really can’t believe that when I said “robots” you couldn’t understand FROM CONTEXT ALONE what I was talking about. You’re just trying to push people’s buttons. Good-bye, and I sincerely hope you don’t get molested by any of those insidious Devil-Jews.

  157. Neil

    @T.E.L.
    It’s only because I’ve done the research, possess in-depth understanding of materials engineering and have the experience with vacuum systems that allows me to have the level of certainty I have that it’s a hoax.

    I have contacted United Technologies Hamilton Sunstrand, manufacturers of EVA suits, and pressed them very hard for the details and specifications for their suits that would confirm them to be legitimate. They’ve consistently only provided basic superficial information.

    I know how it is. Nobody wants to lose the moon. Nobody wants to lose the ISS. Nobody wants to lose the Hubble telescope. Nobody wants to be exposed as a slave. It’s hard to confront. But men of integrity demand TRUTH regardless of how painful it is and will bravely confront it.

  158. Brian

    “The Manhattan Project, F117 Stealth fighter and Cosa Nostra are excellent examples of big secrets by many people being kept secret.”

    So you cite things everyone has heard of as examples of well-kept secrets. Interesting strategy.

  159. T.E.L.

    Neil Said:

    “It’s only because I’ve done the research, possess in-depth understanding of materials engineering and have the experience with vacuum systems that allows me to have the level of certainty I have that it’s a hoax.”

    Excuse me, but I dispute this. You SAY you have all this specialized knowledge, but you don’t demonstrate it.

    “I have contacted United Technologies Hamilton Sunstrand, manufacturers of EVA suits, and pressed them very hard for the details and specifications for their suits that would confirm them to be legitimate. They’ve consistently only provided basic superficial information.”

    All this means is that you haven’t gotten anything with the specificity you need. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t work. It only means you don’t know enough about it yet. NOT knowing the answer is NOT the same as KNOWING the answer. It seems to me that if you really understand the relevant physics, you should be able to DO THE MATH, and then show your work. So, how about this: DO THE MATH, and prove that you know what you’re talking about.

    And also, stop evading people’s perfectly valid points. I mentioned last time about how you obviously think it’s feasible to regulate the temperatures of objects in space. Now you waltz right past as if it never occurred. ADDRESS THESE ISSUES.

  160. Neil

    @Brian
    And someday everybody is going to know Apollo, ISS and Hubble were hoaxes. But for now, it’s mostly a secret mainly because Americans don’t or can’t demand accountability from the criminals that enslave us. Having read what I’ve read, I understand why the secrets of NASA and the holocaust might need to be preserved. I hate to think what would happen to some of these people if they suddenly had the TRUTH forced upon them. Their delusions are extremely dear to them. The Manhattan Project, F117 and Cosa Nostra were once well-kept secrets when it was necessary to keep them secret.

    @T.E.L.
    I think you’re being extremely naive. Forty years and no accountability. Now, even though several countries could have provided independent verification of Apollo accomplishments, NASA says, in violation of the scientific method, that it will do the verifying. No. No. No!

    What valid point are you talking about? What did I waltz past? You mentioned that nickel porous plate ice sublimators cooled robots. I said they didn’t. They don’t. I’m not sure how the space probes are cooled but I was talking about human spacesuit cooling. If you want to discuss space probe cooling, I’d be glad to read what you have to say.

    Could you please be more specific about what issues I haven’t addressed?

  161. T.E.L.

    Neil said:

    Nothing unexpected.

  162. NGCHunter

    @Neil
    I’m going to ignore any attempt to deny your racist overtones

    “I looked at your photo and it’s a nice photo of the prop in orbit.”

    Actually it’s a nice photo of the space station and yours is a classic case of denial (combined with a bit of pure insanity). There’s no way on earth to launch a “prop” that large into orbit without actually assembling with spacewalkers it as has been witnessed by amateurs.

    “As a photographer, you must wonder why nobody in the near ten years of ISS occupation has yet to take a photo of the ISS on the dark side of Earth in silhouette against a brilliant star-filled universe.”

    You mean like this?
    http://eol.jsc.nasa.gov/sseop/images/ESC/small/ISS006/ISS006-E-51915.JPG
    It proves significantly less than my photo (except it does an even better job showing how wrong your absolute assertions are) and the photos of other amateurs, therefore the entire point is irrelevant anyway.

    “Sure, they’d have to adjust the aperture and exposure time and there would be some star streaking but it would be an awesome photo.”

    Many of the cameras brought by the shuttle are incapable of adequately adjusting the exposure time (though there are some DSLRs on ISS), and worse yet, it’s impossible to track the stars during a long exposure by hand (and no gravity to steady a tripod). As you can see above though, there are a few examples of it being done by clever astronauts using fairly short exposures and very high ISOs. It’ll never compare to dedicated astrophotography taken on steady ground though.

    “Don’t you wonder about how little video we see of ISS?”

    Considering that I’ve sat for hours watching video of astronauts floating around doing their duties on ISS on NASA TV, no. But then again, this is coming from a person who, when confronted with independent evidence of ISS, went into full-fledged denial with nothing to back it up. It’s truly hilarious that you sit here hypocritically demanding “independent” confirmation of Apollo when you won’t even accept independent confirmation of ISS. Why would hours of NASA TV change your mind? Of course the answer is it wouldn’t; you’re just peddling ignorance combined with personal expectations.

    “Wouldn’t networks want to use the sunrise and sunset video from ISS as an opening to its morning shows or evening news?”

    That’s an absurd assumption based on your simple minded expectations. I could just as easily ask “wouldn’t networks want to tap Neil every time they have a question about an issue? Why don’t we see Neil’s face doing analysis on every news story? Neil must not exist!” The answer, of course, is that the networks almost as uninterested in spaceflight as they are in you.

    “The TRUTH is but a simple vacuum chamber experiment away.”

    I don’t have access to a vacuum chamber, nor do I know anyone who does, but I do have access to a telescope and that’s all one needs to see the construction of the ISS and the associated spacewalkers in action as I posted above (and you ignored). Just because I didn’t approach the issue your way doesn’t mean I can’t debunk your nonsense. Direct observation is a much higher standard of evidence anyway.

  163. Rev. I. P. Freeley

    @ Neil,

    Proverbs 17:28 Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

    Proverbs 18:2 A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.

    Proverbs 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

    Proverbs 21:23 Whoso keepeth his mouth and his tongue keepeth his soul from troubles.

  164. Neil

    @NGCHunter-
    again, you make a misrepresentative knee-jerk reflexive allusion to racism. I usually find the dishonest particularly persistent in this area. The complexity of a difference between zionism and Judaism is considered undesirable knowledge by our Zionist masters. They love the slaves that defend their slavery.

    The prop could easily be assembled without the need for spacewalkers. It depends on how it was designed but it could be linked together like legos or maybe even simply inflated. With a space shuttle crane, it would be easy to put something together that was very light and merely looked like an ISS in orbit. You and many others don’t have much of an imagination. It has much to do with why they swallow whole the lies fed to them by their slavemasters. It would be far easier and much cheaper to install a fake prop while, essentially, producing the same results.

    No, not like that. I think the photo should be taken from orbit, not the surface of the ground. And it should show a clearly identifiable sihouette of known space hardware like the Hubble or ISS or a Shuttle. I know the astronauts can figure out the camera. I know they could. They haven’t for a reason.

    Independent verification of ISS? Where? When? NASAtv is verification? Are you serious? You think watching fake made-for-slaves video is proof? Provided $millions and some background video of Earth from an orbiting satellite, I could duplicate any and all NASA video allegedly from ISS or Hubble that looked like documentation of $trillions in allocations.

    It’s not an absurd assumption. I watch mainstream media and see almost nothing about ISS or any other aspect of NASA. Ever. We’ve allegedly had an ISS in orbit for nearly a decade and yet they provide the taxpayer little, if any, entertainment value from it. Zero discussion of its mission or the purpose of people allegedly on board is never discussed. Even NASA can’t provide efficiently distributed propaganda. It’s a hoax and it’s purpose is the misappropriation of allocated tax dollars.

    I can live with any networks disinterest in me but to be disinterested in, what should be considered, the greatest current engineering project, is absurd. Zionist controlled media ignores it because that’s the best way to minimize slaves attention of it. Every hour, every day, every week, every month, every year for almost a decade, people have allegedly been aboard ISS, and yet, nearly nothing is reported about their routine, their work, their problems, their logistics, their purpose, funding for the project, etc. Now that’s absurd.

    I didn’t ignore you. I just hate having to call people liars. You’ve never seen a spacewalker through a telescope and it’s doubtful you’ve ever seen an ISS through one either.

    Why are you so strongly and abrasively dedicated to delusion?

  165. Neil

    @Rev Freeley

    Proverb 6:20:09a The TRUTH shall set ye free but first IT shall make ye exteremely miserable.

    Proverb 6:20:09b The TRUTH is but a simple vacuum chamber experiment away.

    Proverb 6:20:09c The TRUTH fears no trial but criminals and cowards fear both TRUTH and its trial.

  166. Mark Hansen

    Neil @ 166 said,
    “…We’ve allegedly had an ISS in orbit for nearly a decade and yet they provide the taxpayer little, if any, entertainment value from it.…”

    People, he’s waiting for the zero-G wrestling to start! What type, ie. mud, jelly, or regular, is anyone’s guess. Or maybe American Idol… in orbit! Personally, I’d be happy to relocate any of the Idol programs to an orbit, preferably around Sedna.

    Neil, did it occur to you that the ISS may be doing, like, sciencey-type stuff? To paraphrase; “That’s no entertainment facility, it’s a space station.”

    Oh, and asking a manufacturer in-depth probing questions about their products may get you only so far as they may have IP concerns. You might be a genuine interested inquirer or an industrial spy. How would they know?

  167. Charlie Young

    Neil, or should I call you Neo, the agents are coming for you . Go back into hiding!

  168. Charlie Young

    …and hiding projects like the F117 and Manhattan project were not hidden for decades like the conspiracies you claim. They were released to public view only years after the initial theories were developed. Why didn’t they just keep those under wraps for decades and try to use them subversively for the good of the Zionists? Haven’t the Zionists been around for centuries?

    As far as the mainstream media not using those orbital images, are you saying we don’t even have the ability to put robot cameras into orbit to obtain said faked orbital photos?

  169. NGCHunter

    @Neil
    “With a space shuttle crane, it would be easy to put something together that was very light and merely looked like an ISS in orbit.”

    Too bad for you that’s not what we see. Amateurs have spotted spacewalkers assembling it. You’re just in complete denial now that I’ve provided irrefutable independent confirmation.

    “No, not like that. I think the photo should be taken from orbit, not the surface of the ground. And it should show a clearly identifiable sihouette of known space hardware like the Hubble or ISS or a Shuttle.”

    That photo wasn’t taken from the ground, it was taken on board the space station. It shows one of the station’s radiators on the left. Here’s another showing the shuttle’s tail taken from on board the shuttle, with star streaks:
    http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/87d4d0058335.jpg

    “Independent verification of ISS? Where? When? NASAtv is verification? Are you serious?”

    Is that what I said? No, I said amateur photos and video of ISS are independent confirmation.

    “I can live with any networks disinterest in me but to be disinterested in, what should be considered, the greatest current engineering project, is absurd.”

    More assumptions based on flawed expectations… yawn.

    “I didn’t ignore you. I just hate having to call people liars. You’ve never seen a spacewalker through a telescope and it’s doubtful you’ve ever seen an ISS through one either.”

    Of course, when all else fails accuse amateurs like me of essentially taking part in the conspiracy. You’re paranoid and in denial (and a hypocrite when you call for independent confirmation of Apollo) and yes, I’ve personally seen ISS in my telescope as have many of my friends with their telescopes. You hate calling people liars because you know when you play that card, fence sitters realize your argument is hollow.

  170. Neil

    @Mark Hansen-
    Some good high quality video would be nice. An extensive tour would be nice. A description, explanation and reason for the experiments they might be performing would be nice. But no, we won’t have any of it despite the fact we’re the ones paying for it. Why? Because it’s a hoax designed to misappropriate $trillions in allocated funds sent to Israel.

    They’ve allegedly been using nickel porous plate ice sublimators for about forty years and you won’t find a single mention of them in any college thermodynamics textbook. Something’s wrong. You should have the courage to confront it.

    @Charlie Young-
    Zionists have been around since 1897 when Theodor Herzl started the Zionist movement. The word “Zionist” was coined by Nathan Birmbaum in 1893. Zionists do keep a nuclear development project secret. The Israeli nuke project is very secret. It’s pure speculation that they own 100 nukes. It might be more. Most Israeli military development projects are extremely well-kept secrets. Even the location of their fighter jet hangars is a well-kept secret.

    I never said anything about robot cameras but I suspect they’re used now and have been used in the past. They would be cheaper which would mean more money left over to steal for Israel.

    It’s hard to get your mind around this I know. We crave convenience and ease. We shun complexity and complication. After centuries of our ancestors being slaves or serfs, most of us are instinctively slaves and will defend our modern mutated forms of slavery. To many, freedom is frightening.

    Morpheus to Neo: “The Matrix is a system Neo. That system is our enemy but when you’re inside you look around and what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters, the very minds of the people we’re trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. If you are not one of us, you are one of them.

    You have to understand most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it. Were you listening to me? Or were you looking at the woman in the red dress?

    I still can’t believe that almost perfect metaphor of a movie was made in 1999 before 9/11. The Zionist media masters must have missed the potential parallels.

    If you haven’t read this, you probably should.
    http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/06/25/070625fa_fact_hersh

    The part about the senior officer refusing to look at the photos General Taguba asked him to view because he feared what he would have to do with the information he then had reminds me much of the attitudes of the cowards on this blog. Remember, keep repeating it over and over:
    9/11 was 19 Arabs with boxcutters.
    9/11 was 19 Arabs with boxcutters.
    9/11 was 19 Arabs with boxcutters.
    9/11 was 19 Arabs with boxcutters.
    9/11 was 19 Arabs with boxcutters.

  171. T.E.L.

    Neil said:

    “I could duplicate any and all NASA video allegedly from ISS or Hubble”

    No you couldn’t.

    And Hubble doesn’t shoot video.

    Neil also said:

    “but to be disinterested in, what should be considered, the greatest current engineering project, is absurd.”

    What makes you think the ISS should be considered the greatest current engineering project? Just because it’s a big building a couple of hundred miles up doesn’t make it the greatest. Even Apollo wasn’t necessarily the greatest engineering feat of its time. It certainly is part of the popular mythology that it was; but that doesn’t mean that everyone must wait with baited breath for every scrap of space-related news. Having to do with “space” doesn’t make a thing the greatest of all possible worlds. It certainly doesn’t make it the highest priority in all people’s lives. It never has been. It just usually means it’s very expensive. That’s how space travel is. The gravity-well is a real bitch.

  172. IVAN3MAN

    @ Neil,

    The fact that you are able to spout your diatribe conspiracy ‘theories’ here and that you have not had a fatal argument with a cement truck, to silence you permanently, is evidence enough that there is no bloody conspiracy — period!

    :cool:

    P.S. The only effective conspiracy is a conspiracy of two individuals — and the other guy is dead!

    :twisted:

  173. Neil

    @NGCHunter-You’ve never seen spacewalkers around ISS through a telescope. You have no photos of it either. The main reason is because human EVAs are impossible. Proof is a simple high vacuum chamber experiment away.

    Your fake photo of the shuttle with stars is an extremely sloppy fake. Please note how the shuttle is illuminated and reflecting sunlight but, nevertheless, the stars are big and bright. NASA consistently explains lack of stars seen on the moon and stars in the orbital sky as presence of bright sunlight. That’s why I’ve always challenged them to provide star shots from the dark side of Earth which they still have yet to provide.

    I don’t care how many times you’ve seen the ISS prop through your telescope. I, too, have watched it pass overhead. But it’s a prop. Zillions of photos of a prop don’t make it an actual working ISS. You have not provided independent verification for anything but a hoax.

    Why would you consider me a hypocrit for calling for independent verification of Apollo? It’s a pillar of the scientific method. Without independent verification, any photo NASA delivers of Apollo remnants will be unable to fulfill that scientific requirement.

    The Japanese as leaders in camera technology had no good reason for not providing the independent verification. They didn’t because they can’t. The Apollo remnants do not exist because we never sent men to the moon.

  174. Charlie Young

    @Neil

    ….or maybe the Zionists figured it would distract everyone from the truth.

  175. T.E.L.

    Neil Said:

    “The main reason is because human EVAs are impossible.”

    You say this, but you never either demonstrate it or even cough up a convincing argument for it.

    “Proof is a simple high vacuum chamber experiment away.”

    Then what’s stopping you from proving it? You claim to work intimately with vacuum apparatus. Do the experiment. Don’t complain that other people don’t do it for you. It’s not everyone else’s job to make you look good.

    And I won’t bother holding my breath while waiting for you to replicate all of NASA’s videos from aboard the ISS. I won’t wait, because you’ll never do it. You can’t.

    By the way, have you ever watched the Apollo lunar EVA videos non-stop in their entireties?

  176. Neil

    Not surprising, my requests to the NASA Glenn research center to witness the operation of NASA EVA suits in a vacuum environment were denied.

    Also, because I’m not a thief like the Israelis, I lack the $millions to duplicate fake NASA video.

    I no longer have access to a high vacuum chamber and all of my requests to former coworkers and others to perform the experiment have been denied. People are rightfully afraid. You can lose your job fast if you perform unauthorized experiments. Faculty at my zionist-controlled alma mater will not touch it.

    But the experiment doesn’t even need to be performed to know the spacesuits are fake. The gloves are allegedly pressurized to 5psi and operate in orbital vacuum of about 1e-7torr. The moon is more like 1e-17torr. Having used and maintained high vacuum systems, I know that vacuum gloves attached to a vacuum chamber that allowed someone to reach in and manipulate objects inside a vacuum chamber while it was under vacuum would be very useful especially during maintenance. Most of the fabrication process for OLEDs (Organic Light Emitting Diodes) require glove boxes filled with inert gas but a high vacuum glove box chamber would be a superior solution. The potential market for vacuum gloves is huge. NASA has strangely failed to commerically spin-off its vacuum glove technology. They are not for sale. Ever. Anywhere. For any price.

    There was a recent NASA glove challenge to reinforce the hoax where the winner was awarded $200,000. They had a dexterity test where they used a glove attached to a glove box pumped down to 10psi with the glove at atmoshperic pressure (~15psi) to allegedly duplicate the 5psi differential pressure of a space glove at 5psi operating in a vacuum of near 0psi(1e-7torr=2billionths of a psi)

    The problem is that the force factor between a glove pressurized to 15psi operating in 10psi is different than a glove pressurized to 5psi operating in a near 0psi vacuum. The Kinetic Particle Theory of Pressure tells us why.

    By assuming that each psi represents one-billion kinetic particles, 15psi would represent 15billion particles and 10psi would represent 10 billion particles creating a ratio of force of 3 to 2 or a force factor of 1.5.

    5psi would represent 5 billion particles and near 0psi or 2 billionths of a psi would represent only 2 particles creating a ratio of 2.5 billion to 1 or a force factor of 2.5billion.

    Metaphorically, you could consider armies arrayed against one another across a wall. The battle between an army of 15 billion arrayed against an army of 10 billion would be far different than the battle between an army of 2.5billion against an army of 2.

    Any glove or any vacuum chamber membrane made of glove materials would burst if there was 5psi on one side and near 0psi on the other.

    It’s very difficult to operate at near 0psi because of the high force factor. That’s why vacuum chambers, vacuum pumps, high vacuum valves, chamber caps, etc are all made of heavy strong steel or thick tempered glass bell jars surrounded by a steel cage in case it implodes and shatters. If you visit the Smithsonian Air&Space Museum in D.C. and examine the Apollo Command Module on display, you’ll find a very strong and heavy pressure vessel. The hatch is a mechanical engineering work of art. It has to be that way because they operate at pressure in high vacuum.

    They don’t make vacuum chambers out of cloth and rubber covered wicker baskets and gloves could never operate in a vacuum at near 0psi even if they are pressurized to only 5psi.

  177. T.E.L.

    Neil Said:

    “Also, because I’m not a thief like the Israelis, I lack the $millions to duplicate fake NASA video.”

    Nonsense. I challenge you to show that anyone, with any amount of money, could have faked the zero-g scenes broadcast back in the late ’60s and early ’70s. Those broadcasts lasted for very extended lengths of time, FAR LONGER than can be sustained in an aircraft. You can’t claim they were done with special visual effects: the state of the art wasn’t that good back then, and there was no CGI even close to what’s possible nowadays. I’m willing to say that, to this day, not a single motion picture has ever been made which absolutely flawlessly replicates the zero-g environment of a real spacecraft. This even includes Ron Howard’s film Apollo 13. He shot scenes aboard an aircraft doing parabolae; but it’s possible to see when the aircraft was leveling off several times. Not a single motion picture has ever made perfect space-scenes. People who point to, for example, Kubrick’s film 2001 are clueless. That film was done with great care, but the photography of spaceships and astronauts is definitely not flawless.

    And what’s with all the blathering about vacuum chambers and gloves? What you’ve been telling me is that sublimation if ice won’t work as a cooling system. Since when do you need a massive industrial vacuum chamber to do something like that? You can buy vacuum equipment cheaply enough to explore what happens to water as the pressure drops. People do this sort of thing in classrooms all the time. Do you think experimental physicists only do their work with the biggest, baddest machines? If so, then you’re way out of touch with the real world. Some of the most interesting research is done on tabletops.

    And, have you ever watched the Apollo lunar EVA videos non-stop in their entireties? Please bother to answer this question. Evading it only makes you look stupider.

  178. IVAN3MAN

    Neil:

    I no longer have access to a high vacuum chamber and all of my requests to former coworkers and others to perform the experiment have been denied. People are rightfully afraid. You can lose your job fast if you perform unauthorized experiments.

    Yeah, like, er… they are afraid of you damaging their expensive equipment.

    The potential market for vacuum gloves is huge. NASA has strangely failed to commerically spin-off its vacuum glove technology. They are not for sale. Ever. Anywhere. For any price.

    Desktop Stainless Steel Vacuum Glove Box ( 24″ x 18″ x 16″) with Airlock Chamber and Gauges @ $4,995.00.

    Large Stainless Steel Vacuum Glove Box ( 48″ x 28″ x 44″) with Airlock Chamber and Six Ports @ $13,995.00.

    :cool:

  179. T.E.L.

    IVAN3MAN Says:

    “Desktop Stainless Steel Vacuum Glove Box ( 24x 18 x 16″) with Airlock Chamber and Gauges @ $4,995.00.

    Large Stainless Steel Vacuum Glove Box ( 48′x28′x44′) with Airlock Chamber and Six Ports @ $13,995.00″

    Sweet. Neil must have bribed an orderly to get this much access to the internet.

  180. Neil

    Ivan, Ivan, Ivan! I’m embarassed for you. What a cheap trick. You know the vacuum glove boxes you provide links for don’t operate as true vacuum boxes. They’re pumped down to high vacuum and then refilled with inert gas to atmospheric pressure before the gloves can be used. The gloves are never used while the chamber is under vacuum. The metal caps over the glove openings are closed while the chamber is pumped down to prevent the gloves from bursting. Nice try though.

    Actually, you make a good point about damaging vacuum chamber equipment. In my formal description of the experiment I propose, I include a procedural step to close the HIVAC valve just before pressurizing the outer chamber to 5psi. I, personally, know the membrane will burst flooding the chamber with gas and the cryo pump or molecular turbine pump or diffusion pump will crash unless the HIVAC valve is closed just prior to pressurizing the outer chamber with 5psi gas.

  181. T.E.L.

    Neil Said:

    “Ivan, Ivan, Ivan! I’m embarassed for you.”

    That probably makes the two of you even-Steven.

    Hey, Neil: are you gonna tell me if you’ve seen the Apollo EVA videos exactly as I describe?

  182. Pat Montana

    Neil:

    There are only 2 ways the conspiracy works:

    1) EVERYONE involved in NASA & their contractors and most sub-contractors knows and keeps the secrets. This would mean hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of people have kept the largest secret in history. Highly unlikely. Remember, even the people on the assembly lines would have to have some knowledge of the conspiracy or the risk is run of someone figuring out their just building “props”. You said people are “very well paid” to keep the secret. Then either a) there’s not much left for your Zionist slave masters after paying millions of people $millions each to keep them out of the media (see below) or b) the media networks you claim are so desperate for stories and material would certainly be willing to out-pay the government at least once. The revenue and ratings generated by breaking such a big story would be worth anything the networks had to pay. Either way…where are all these “NASA Millionaires”? I could use some additional income and I am not above blackmail. Speaking of which…why haven’t YOU found some of these folks and outed them? In this day and age background searches and income tracking is cheap and widely available. Could it be because they don’t exist…that they actually built stuff that they believed worked? That leads us to…

    2) Only the people at the highest level have knowledge of the conspiracy. This is what you seem to imply. While this is easier to maintain from a numbers and bribery standpoint it creates one problem. You have hundreds (or more likely thousands) of scientists and engineers designing things that WILL ACTUALLY WORK! They can’t be intentionally designing fakes because they’re not in on it, so they design things they intend to function. If they can do that…why fake it? You have all these people designing hardware THAT ACTUALLY WORKS and you’re STILL going to fake it? Why? And don’t tell me so the money can be sent to Israel. If you build the stuff that actually works…there’s no money left…because a LEM really cost a couple of billion each back then. If the scientists and engineers are in on it, you’re back to scenario #1…and someone’s going to spill the beans.

  183. Neil

    @Ivan
    Did you notice the blurb warning in the second glove box link you provided:
    ( Note: The glove box is not designed for ultra-high vacuum. Stainless steel case may deform at higher vacuum )

    Ultra-high vacuum is defined as any pressure below 10e-9torr.
    Guess what vacuum exists at the surface of the moon.
    According to Wikipedia, moon surface pressure is 3e-15atm that converts to 2.2e-12torr.

    So you see, a stainless steel chamber isn’t strong enough to withstand such a pressure differential but you’re position so far is that thin cloth and rubber spacesuits can. It’s a hoax. I hope this is convincing enough for you.

    When you get close to 0psi, the rules change and the Kinetic Particle Theory of Pressure informs us why.

    I know it’s hard to confront. I was miserable. But you’ll get past it. Liberation brings responsibilities and advantages.

    I swallowed the red pill and I haven’t regretted it for even a second.

    @T.E.L-
    answer my questions in 162 and we can resume our dialogue. I don’t like you. You’re obtuse.

  184. Neil

    @Pat Montana
    Departamentalization and scattering of the contracts allows deception. Some of it worked, some of it didn’t. The Saturn V and Shuttle boosters worked. Launches can’t be faked. But everything after the rockets go out of sight can be faked. The ISS, the spacesuits, the Lunar Module, etc. The actual number of people in on the hoax can be very low and still have the program go forward. TRUTH is but a simple vacuum chamber experiment away. Do you have access to a high vacuum chamber?

  185. Mark Hansen

    Some good high quality video would be nice. An extensive tour would be nice. A description, explanation and reason for the experiments they might be performing would be nice. But no, we won’t have any of it despite the fact we’re the ones paying for it. Why? Because it’s a hoax designed to misappropriate $trillions in allocated funds sent to Israel.

    Hey, Einstein, if you want to know what the experiments are designed to do, you could try looking them up on the ‘net. As you seem incapable of doing this, I’ll provide the link for you.

    http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/science/experiments/Expedition.html

    And if you were provided with the high quality video you ask for, you’d say it was faked and you can’t trust NASA. What about the Russians? Oh, that’s right, they’re in on it too! You go on about people living as slaves; you’re living as a slave to your own paranoia.

  186. Pat Montana

    Neil said: “If you visit the Smithsonian Air&Space Museum in D.C. and examine the Apollo Command Module on display, you’ll find a very strong and heavy pressure vessel. The hatch is a mechanical engineering work of art. It has to be that way because they operate at pressure in high vacuum.”

    So let me get this straight…you’re going to use the excellence of the engineering on an Apollo artifact as an argument that the Apollo program never took place?!?!?! I think I just puked in my mouth a little! Even Ted Bundy wasn’t that twisted. Oh that’s right…Ted didn’t actually do those things…the Zionist slave masters framed him to shut him up after he moved to Florida and uncovered the hoax. Yeeesh!

  187. Neil

    @Pat Montana-it’s like I said, some things work, others don’t. The Command Module had to work because it had to house three astronauts in the dangerous high vacuum environment of orbit around the Earth in the time they said they were on the moon.

    So are you a believer that a stainless steel chamber will implode if pumped down to ultra-high vacuum but the super-duper moonsuits won’t balloon and burst if used in ultra-high vacuum?

    Cognitive dissonance is defined as holding two contradictory ideas in one’s mind simultaneously. Be warned, it can lead to insanity. You need to make a choice.

  188. T.E.L.

    Neil Said:

    “@T.E.L-
    answer my questions in 162 and we can resume our dialogue. I don’t like you. You’re obtuse.”

    The pot calling the kettle black. You’re a ten-cent control freak. I’ve met many, and you’re right up there with ‘em.

    But really: what does any of this have to do with whether you like me or I like you? The fact is that you haven’t seen the videos. I saw them live on TV. If you’ve seen them as I specify, there’s no way in Hell that you can call them fake. There are specific reasons why. But you aren’t interested in being confronted with reality. Your pathetic little Zionist conspiracy, even if real, is nothing to me. My life goes on, enjoyably. I have more interesting things to contemplate than to fret over whether or not the Jews are a bunch of money-grubbers. And you’re a grade-A moron for reducing everything that interests you in the world to battles between Good and Evil, as if your name were Reagan or Bush. You are an addict, phishing for fixes.

  189. Pat Montana

    Neil said: “Departamentalization and scattering of the contracts allows deception. Some of it worked, some of it didn’t.”

    This isn’t like building cars. Only enough equipment for a couple dozen missions was ever intended to be built and they had to be PERFECT. Contractors only used their best and brightest on these projects. I would be willing to bet even a fair % of the guys on the assembly lines had engineering degrees. They would figure out they were building fakes. If they are in on it the number gets too large to manage.

    Just because the guy at Grumman doesn’t know what they guy at Boeing is building doesn’t mean he’s too stupid to figure out he’s working on a sham. You seem to be taking the stance that anyone in a position to have intimate knowledge of the Apollo equipment must be corrupt…oh that’s right…you’re paranoid. Sorry I forgot.

  190. IVAN3MAN

    @ Neil,

    You’re the one who stated: “[Vacuum glove boxes] are not for sale. Ever. Anywhere. For any price.”; I showed everybody that you were incorrect in your assumption.

    If you want a custom built vacuum chamber to ‘prove’ your assertions and show everybody the TRUTH™ — you’ve used that term 17 times already! — then I suggest that you contact these guys:

    Atlas TECHNOLOGIES.

    That is… if you have got the funds. ;-)

  191. T.E.L.

    Neil Said:

    “So are you a believer that a stainless steel chamber will implode if pumped down to ultra-high vacuum but the super-duper moonsuits won’t balloon and burst if used in ultra-high vacuum?”

    I see now that you absolutely haven’t done much research into suit designs.

  192. Neil

    @Ivan
    I was wondering how you were going to respond.
    You can call it a vacuum glove box if you want but you know it’s only called that because sometimes it’s under vacuum and sometimes it’s used as a glove box when pressurized to atmospheric. There’s no such thing as a true vacuum glove box where the box is under vacuum while the gloves are in use. The gloves would implode and burst.

    Did you understand the implications of the warning about going to ultra high vacuum with the chamber?
    I think I have you checkmated.

  193. Pat Montana

    Neil said: “So are you a believer that a stainless steel chamber will implode if pumped down to ultra-high vacuum but the super-duper moonsuits won’t balloon and burst if used in ultra-high vacuum?”

    Do you believe a .357 will pierce a sheet of 1/8″ stainless steel but it won’t pierce 1/8″ of layered Kevlar? Just because something isn’t rigid doesn’t mean it has no strength.

    By the way…you never answered my question…why haven’t YOU tracked down some of these “NASA Millionaires” and outed them?

  194. NGCHunter

    @Neil
    “Please note how the shuttle is illuminated and reflecting sunlight but, nevertheless, the stars are big and bright.”
    It’s called the moon and it’s big and bright, especially in long exposures.

    I already showed you photographic evidence of spacewalkers assembling the ISS. If you refuse to accept that then you are not staying by your own rule of accepting independent confirmation, also known as hypocrisy.

  195. Neil

    @NGC Hunter-
    You showed me a blurry photo of an ISS prop and a photo of the shuttle in sunlight with stars. Where were the spacewalkers?

    How about you? How do you explain the warning of a deformed steel chamber at ultra-high vacuum when it’s so easy for moonwalkers wearing flexible cloth and rubber suits? Maybe if they built those vacuum chambers out of super-duper moonsuit cloth covered wicker baskets, they’d work?

    Consider yourself checkmated too.

  196. Pat Montana

    Neil says: “How about you? How do you explain the warning of a deformed steel chamber at ultra-high vacuum when it’s so easy for moonwalkers wearing flexible cloth and rubber suits?”

    Simple…that particular chamber was not designed to do it. Simply because that particular chamber will not withstand a given level of vacuum doesn’t mean it can’t be done nor does it mean that suits will not work. That’s like making the argument that because I can’t score a touchdown in the NFL that it cannot be done. Your logic is false. You have checkmated no one.

  197. T.E.L.

    Neil, there’s a considerable difference between implosion and explosion. A latex party balloon, for example, has great surface tension while inflated to higher than ambient air pressure. That same envelope, with the air being sucked out, is a totally different thing mechanically. Conversely, a duck egg is stronger when compressed from the outside than when the chick pecks at it from within. Similarly, submersible hulls can be made to hold their integrity against pressure at the bottom of the ocean.

    A spacesuit is being pressed from the inside, but it won’t necessarily burst. The Gemini EVA suits, for example, were constrained to hold their shapes by an anthropomorphic metal cage. The metal mesh could be flexed, and by keeping the bladder from ballooning to its maximal dimensions, the bladder never got to maximal surface tension and it too could be flexed with some effort on the astronaut’s part. The Apollo suits improved on this by putting bellows-type geometry at the arm and leg joints. In principle bellows joints have zero change in volume when flexed. If the volume doesn’t changed with flexure, then the internal air pressure plays no role in impeding the flexure. In practice the joints didn’t maintain absolutely constant volume through the whole range of possible motion; but it did stay approximately constant through a useful enough range, making it a lot easier to move by that innovation alone.

    A further feature was a system of metal cables and pulley wheels, with the wheels placed at strategic positions. There was a deliberately high coefficient of friction in the wheel bearings, which allowed the astronaut to flex a joint and have the friction do the work of holding it in that position, which freed the guy inside from having to constantly use his muscles to resist what torque there was acting to restore the joints to their equilibrium positions. This was useful when the wearer was working on some manual task.

    Research continues into improving suits. Are you aware that human skin is airtight enough on its own to hold air in the body for the most part? Research is ongoing for “Spandex”-type suits, which would be a lot less bulky and would allow much greater freedom at the joints. This kind of suit would use its high tension to constrain human skin against bloating. The tension is a substitute for air pressure upon human skin. The only places which would need to be airtight would be where the suit interfaces with the neck (to hold air for breathing inside the helmet), and perhaps around the hips and buttocks (because otherwise the wearer might be uncontrollably flatulent).

  198. Mark Hansen

    Neil, it is pointless arguing with someone that won’t do even 5 minutes worth of research on the ‘net. You stated in post 172 “…Even the location of their [Israel] fighter jet hangars is a well-kept secret.…”
    Did you even look this up? Try Hatzerim / Hazerim for starters. Not the museum but the airbase right next door. Look at it with Google Earth if you wish.
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatzerim_Airbase
    Gives you latitude, longitude, and elevation. What type of aircraft they have there. All easily looked up within 5 minutes.

    Your posts have consistently shown you to be lazy, arrogant and deserving of ridicule. You are a waste of space.

  199. IVAN3MAN

    There’s no such thing as a true vacuum glove box where the box is under vacuum while the gloves are in use. The gloves would implode and burst.

    [...]

    How do you explain the warning of a deformed steel chamber at ultra-high vacuum when it’s so easy for moonwalkers wearing flexible cloth and rubber suits? Maybe if they built those vacuum chambers out of super-duper moonsuit cloth covered wicker baskets, they’d work?

    In order for an ultra-high vacuum chamber to resist implosion from atmospheric pressure, it needs to be of a convex rather than a ‘boxy’ design, which is why most Cathode-Ray Tubes are slightly convex at the front and ‘tubular’ at the rear; however, TV tube manufacturers have managed to achieve “pure flat” wide-screen CRTs of up to 36″, until these were eventually superseded by LCD/Plasma TVs.

    As for space suits, the human body can briefly survive the hard vacuum of space unprotected, despite contrary depictions in much popular science fiction. Human flesh expands to about twice its size in such conditions, giving the visual effect of a body builder rather than an overfilled balloon. Consciousness is retained for up to 15 seconds as the effects of oxygen starvation set in. No snap freeze effect occurs because all heat must be lost through thermal radiation or the evaporation of liquids, and the blood does not boil because it remains pressurized within the body. The greatest danger is in attempting to hold one’s breath before exposure, as the subsequent explosive decompression can damage the lungs. These effects have been confirmed through various accidents (including in very high altitude conditions, outer space and training vacuum chambers. Human skin does not need to be protected from vacuum and is gas-tight by itself. Instead it only needs to be mechanically compressed to retain its normal shape. This can be accomplished with a tight-fitting elastic body suit and a helmet for containing breathing gases, known as a Space activity suit.


    I’ll be back…

  200. IVAN3MAN

    Neil:

    The method that Apollo and ISS(International Space Station) astronauts on EVA(Extra Vehicular Activity) cool themselves is extremely problematic. All engineering students are taught that there are three modes of heat transfer, conduction, convection and radiation but no mention is ever made of the method used to cool astronauts in the vacuum of space. According to NASA, astronauts allegedly use nickel porous plate ice sublimators. I’ve done a lot of searching and have even been in contact with the alleged manufacturers of the cooling systems, United Technologies’ Hamilton Sunstrand and have received the standard basic propaganda baloney about how they work but have been unable to acquire any specifications or procedures for their operation.

    The Gemini space suit (G3C and G4C suits) was the primary spacesuit worn for all but the Gemini 7 mission. The G3C consisted of six layers of nylon (the innermost containing a rubberized nylon “bladder”) and nomex, with a link net retaining layer and an outer layer of white nomex fabric. It had removable combat-style boots, also made of nomex fabric, along with a full-pressure helmet (containing a set of earphones and microphones) and gloves detachable by improved locking rings that allow easy rotation of the wrists. On Gemini 3 the G3C suit was worn by both Gus Grissom and John W. Young and was the only flight to use this suit.

    The G4C suit was identical to the G3C suit, but came in two different styles. Both had additional layers of Mylar insulation for temperature control (+250°F [+121°C] in direct sunlight and -250°F [-156°C] in shadow), but the commander’s suit retained the removable boots, while the pilot’s version had integrated boots and a detachable sun visor which clipped onto the helmet. The G4C suit was worn by all crews from Gemini 4 to its end and it was in this suit that Ed White made the first American spacewalk in 1965. Except for one modification, the incorporation of additional layers in the legs, as well as an outer layer of “Chromel-R” fabric on the Gemini 9A spacesuit worn by Eugene Cernan (he was to test the Astronaut Maneuvering Unit, which used hydrogen peroxide as its fuel), and the replacement of the Plexiglas helmet faceplate with one made of polycarbonate plastic, the G4C suits remained unchanged until the last Gemini flight in 1966.

    The A7L Apollo & Skylab spacesuit basic design was a one piece, five-layer “torso-limb” suit with convoluted joints made of synthetic rubber at the shoulders, elbows, wrist, hips, ankle, and knee joints, “link-net” meshing to prevent the suit from ballooning at the joints, and a shoulder “cable block” assembly to allow the shoulder to be extended and retracted by its wearer. Metal rings at the neck and forearms allowed for the connection of the pressure gloves and the famous Apollo “fishbowl helmet” (adopted by NASA as it allowed an unrestricted view, as well as eliminating the need for a visor seal required in the Mercury and Gemini & Apollo “Block I” spacesuit helmets). A “cover layer,” which was designed to be fireproof after the Apollo 1 launchpad fire, was attached to the pressure garment assembly and was removable for repairs and inspection. All A7L suits featured a vertical zipper that went from the shoulder assembly of the suit down to the crotch for entering and exiting the suit.

    Because of the hazards from micro-meteoroids traveling at 27,000 kilometers per hour, it is important that the outer layer of the suit be puncture-resistant. The Apollo/Skylab A7L suit included eleven layers in all: an inner liner, a liquid cooling and ventilation garment, a pressure bladder, a restraint layer, another liner, and a thermal micro-meteoroid garment consisting of five aluminized insulation layers and an external layer of white Ortho-Fabric. This spacesuit is capable of protecting the astronaut from temperatures ranging from -156 °C to +121 °C.

    A Liquid Cooling and Ventilation Garment, or LCVG, is a form-fitting garment worn by astronauts in order to maintain a comfortable core body temperature during extra-vehicular activity. The LCVG accomplishes this task by circulating cool water through a network of flexible tubes in direct contact with the astronaut’s skin. The water draws heat away from the body, resulting in a lower core temperature. The water then returns to the Primary Life Support System/Subsystem, or PLSS, where it is cooled in a heat exchanger before being recirculated. In an independent space suit, the heat is ultimately transferred to a thin sheet of ice (formed by a separate feed water source). Due to the extremely low pressure in space, the heated ice sublimates directly to water vapor, which is then vented away from the suit. In a dependent space suit (such as the ones used in the Gemini program or within lunar orbit on the Apollo program), the heat is carried back to a host spacecraft through an umbilical connection, where it is ultimately radiated or sublimated via the spacecraft’s own thermal control system.

    Because the space environment is essentially a vacuum, heat cannot be lost through heat convection, and can only be directly dissipated through thermal radiation, a much slower process. Thus, even though the environment of space can be extremely cold, excessive heat build-up is inevitable. Without an LCVG, there would be no means by which to expel this heat, and it would affect not only EVA performance, but the health of the suit occupant as well. The LCVG used with the Apollo/Skylab A7L suit could remove heat at a rate of approximately 2000 Btu/h (600 watts).

    A Primary (or Portable) Life Support System/Subsystem, or PLSS, is the “backpack” of a spacesuit. It provides most of the functions of a spacecraft life support system, in a smaller package. The functions performed by the PLSS include:

    * regulating suit pressure
    * providing breathable oxygen
    * removing carbon dioxide, humidity, odors, and contaminants from breathing oxygen
    * cooling and recirculating oxygen and water through the Liquid Cooling and Ventilation Garment, or LCVG.
    * sensing and reporting suit parameters
    * providing communications for the suit occupant

    The air handling function of a PLSS is similar to that of a diving rebreather, in that exhaled gases are recycled into the breathing gas in a closed loop.

    Schematic of the AL7 PLSS:

    Primary_Life_Support_System/Subsystem_schematic

    Further information can be found here:

    * Apollo Extravehicular mobility unit. Volume 1: System description — 1971_[PDF]

    * APOLLO EXPERIENCE REPORT DEVELOPMENT OF THE EXTRAVEHICULAR MOBILITY_[PDF]

  201. IVAN3MAN

    Oh, I almost forgot…
    :cool:

  202. Neil

    @Ivan
    That’s an impressive demonstration of your html skills but I’m wondering what you’re trying to say. I’ve yet to hear you concede your checkmated status. Your very own htmlized link provided very convenient evidence that Apollo EVA suits are hoaxes. The rigid steel vacuum chamber will deform possibly leading to implosion if subjected to ultra-high vacuum. There’s no way a flexible suit will provide greater strength.

    A similar diagram to the one you posted was contained in a book sent to me by Hamilton Sunstrand describing the history of spacesuits. The concept of a nickel porous plate ice sublimator is not misunderstood by me. I understand its theoretical operation and the necessity for using it as an explanation when conductive and convective cooling are unavailable. My hangup is with the procedures for its use especially during pressure and temperature transitions that would allegedly be experienced when depressurizing a Lunar Module at temperature to enter a moon environment at temperature later to be in a moon environment at much different temperature when the residual heat of the suit radiated away. There’s no good reason why one of these alleged EVA suits hasn’t been demonstrated on Earth in a vacuum chamber in the forty years of their alleged use unless it’s a hoax.
    But we both clearly should know now that the whole thing is a hoax based on the impossibility of the suits operating in high vacuum.

    Are you prepared to admit that or do you want to go desperately clinging to your delusion a bit longer?

  203. Charlie Young

    @ Neil/Neo

    You know, the world is a pretty complicated place as it is. Why do we need the further complication of a gigantic subversive conspiracy to make it even more complicated? There are plenty of rational explanations for all that you fear. What you really need to fear is that you have no control of what you see around you. You must feel extremely vulnerable to want to believe that you have a true and thorough understanding of the supposed subversive power underlying all these conspiracies. That is the only way you can cope with your own existence.

  204. Charlie Young

    Oh, by the way, did the astronauts on Columbia and Challenger die because they were about to spill the beans about the conspiracy. You didn’t list those in your list way back in this string.

  205. Charlie Young

    @178 ivan3man

    Classic Python “Yes it is!” No it isn’t!”

  206. IVAN3MAN

    Neil, your attitude is like that of the Black Knight:

  207. NGCHunter

    @Neil
    “@NGC Hunter-
    You showed me a blurry photo of an ISS prop and a photo of the shuttle in sunlight with stars. Where were the spacewalkers?”
    It was highlighted in the second picture I posted and compared to a NASA TV view recorded simultaneously confirming that the spacewalk was occuring as reported.

    “moonwalkers wearing flexible cloth”
    Spacesuits consist of many layers, some are restrictive layers, only the outermost layer is “flexible cloth.” Also, spacewalkers use reduced air pressure inside their suits.

  208. DrFlimmer

    So, Astronauts cannot work in a vaccum. I wonder how the crew of STS-125 (and 4 previous crews) repaird the Hubble Space Telescope. Or does anyone thing that the HST and all its pictures are a hoax and Astronomy is still nothing else than Astrology?

  209. Charlie Young

    Neil trolls other blogs as well. Go to www (dot) wired (dot) com (slash) wiredscience (slash) 2009 (slash) 04 (slash) spaceauction

  210. Neil

    @Charlie Young–I think the Challenger and Columbia disasters actually happened and 14 astronauts died tragic preventable deaths. I’d have fired almost everybody at the top.

    @Ivan–Black knight? More like black king and you’re still in checkmate.

    @NGCHunter–I can’t find that spacewalkers photo. Would you mind providing the link again?

    I don’t care how many layers of rubber or steel mesh or cloth you assemble in a glove or suit, they’re never going to be stronger than a rigid stainless steel chamber and will burst everytime. And even with reduced internal pressure of 5psi, I’ve already shown how the Kinetic Particle Theory of Pressure explains why the force factor becomes huge when acting against near 0psi. You’re still in checkmate too.

    Dr. Flimmer–Anything showing astronauts on EVA or spacewalks in space are hoaxes. The Hubble is a hoax like ISS and Apollo. The alleged photos of Hubble come from other equally powerful or more powerful telescopes based on Earth. The science of astronomy is still very strong but NASA is about crime, lies and hoaxes and not about science.

  211. DrFlimmer

    LOOOOOOL

    Today’s ground-based telescopes are equaling Hubble – thanks to adaptive optics. But such things were not available 19 years ago, when Hubble was launched into orbit. Claiming that Hubble pictures from, say, before 2005 were from ground-based observatories is ridiculous!

    Oh, and ever steped out at night and watched the ISS flying overhead? Even with a small telescope you are able, now, to see its structure! This thing definitely didn’t evolve by itself…

  212. Pat Montana

    Neil said: “I don’t care how many layers of rubber or steel mesh or cloth you assemble in a glove or suit, they’re never going to be stronger than a rigid stainless steel chamber and will burst everytime.”

    You never addressed my question regarding Kevlar. I provided a clear example of a situation where a flexible piece of cloth can exhibit more strength than a piece of stainless steel. You are foolishly associating rigidity with strength, and continue to miss the points be made.

    You STILL have not answered my question…why haven’t YOU found some of these “NASA Millionaires” that have been paid so well and exposed them? The internet provides a cheap and easy means to do background research on just about anyone. I agree with Mark Hansen when he says “Your posts have consistently shown you to be lazy, arrogant and deserving of ridicule.”

  213. T.E.L.

    Neil, you’re an idiot. Steel is not always stronger than textiles under all conditions. The geometry of the envelope plus the sign & magnitude of the pressure differential are relevant. The envelope will maintain integrity if its tensile strength isn’t exceeded, and that tension isn’t exacerbated by having a vacuum on only one side. The pressure differential will determine the tension. You haven’t DEMONSTRATED anything about the kinetic theory of gases. Not everyone you talk with is utterly clueless. There are lots of other people besides you who’ve actually dealt with materials and such out here in the real world.

    By the way, I see on Wired that you went to Tulane. Perhaps that’s what happened to Frank Tipler; the poor guy.

  214. Neil

    @Flimmer–all of the Hubble photos are fakes because their is no Hubble in orbit. The photos are either from other telescopes or complete artististic fabrications.

    Yes, I have watched the ISS prop fly overhead. It’s a sad reminder of human gullibility as is a full moon when I see one. I hate the moon. It’s become a symbol of slavery.

    @Pat–Yes, some fibers like Kevlar have tensile strengths that exceed steel but any glove or suit woven from Kevlar would still be a composite material. You may have a weave of kevlar fibers but there are gaps between fibers especially if it’s constructed to remain flexible. The huge force factor will force the secondary materials through the gaps of the weave causing burst.

    The fact remains, that such super-duper gloves are not for sale, never have been and never will be despite there being a huge commericial market for them because they are impossible and nonexistent.

    Nor, will you ever be allowed to witness a test of them at any criminal NASA facility nor will any other citizen taxpayer funding the alleged gloves and spacesuits.

    If you have access to a high vacuum chamber, you are but a simple high vacuum experiment away from the TRUTH. Do you have such access?

    I can’t believe I’m having to continue this conversation this long after exposing the gloves as obvious hoaxes. You folks are hard cases. You’ve been in checkmate for a day and you still can’t bring yourselves to concede. Even I had difficulty conceding but I did it on my own, conceding to myself that I was duped. Maybe that’s the key difference between us. You’re dedicated to winning a debate against an opponent other than yourself and so there’s more primitive emotional obstinence involved whereas I was simply embracing TRUTH granted by myself who was, fortunately, strong enough to consider it. Delusions are very near and dear to some and they will not relinquish them despite any amount of evidence.

  215. Ivan3man
    ” Desktop Stainless Steel Vacuum Glove Box ( 24″ x 18″ x 16″) with Airlock Chamber and Gauges @ $4,995.00.

    Large Stainless Steel Vacuum Glove Box ( 48″ x 28″ x 44″) with Airlock Chamber and Six Ports @ $13,995.00.”

    Internet discussion that will never end….. priceless
    This video is also priceless.

  216. DrFlimmer

    Do you have an idea how ridicolous YOU are?
    20 years of astronomy are a conspiracy, 60 years of technology are a conspiracy. Millions of people working for NASA and the scientists are nothing more than a big bunch of conspirators. And all of them keep silent!

    And: YOU know!

    Dude, you are even more ridicolous than OilIsMastery – and this means something!

    Ever thought about a bicycle tube? They can be pumped up to 12 bar (depending on the tube ;) )! This is twelve times the atmospheric pressure! And it is just rubber that keeps all the pressure inside!
    And 12 bar in atmospheric pressure is a greater force than 1 bar (approx. 1 atm) in a vaccum. So, elastic rubber will do the job!

  217. davidlpf

    No you have not shown the gloves do not work and you are the first and you won’t be the last. Just because people do not want you near there expensive machines does mean they are hiding something. Just becuase someone wrote this crud in a book does mean you are right.

  218. Neil

    @Flimmer–
    When I got out of the Navy, I worked at a commercial nuclear power plant for awhile. Anyway, while I was there, I would quietly ask most of the people I came in contact with if they thought nuclear power was a good idea. Except for a few diehard pro-nuke fanatics, most of the people I spoke with admitted that they thought it was a bad idea and almost all of them, because they were informed and knowledgeable, identified problems with disposal and storage of nuclear waste as the main reason it was a bad idea. When I asked them why they continued to work there they almost always answered that the pay was better there than almost anyplace else where they could get a job. The TRUTH was irrelevant to their economic well-being. The same condition exists at NASA. They get paid well and as long as they keep their mouths shut, they’ll keep getting paid well. The TRUTH is irrelevant to a slave that embraces his slavery. To somebody that embraces economic well-being over TRUTH, observing someone who embraces TRUTH over economic well-being will appear ridiculous. And vice-versa. Unfortunately, today in the United States, most of the people are dedicated to economic well-being. Ironically, it has a lot to do with our fast slide into poverty.

    I remember after 9/11 when it was becoming clearly apparent to me and anyone else with the courage to confront TRUTH that 9/11 was something much different than the official government explanation, I confronted several University of California grad students I worked with about it. It was amazing. Every one of them. Every one. Not a single exception. They either refused to talk about it or simply dismissed any questions about the official story as “conspiracy theory”. They were completely void of any dedication to TRUTH. The entire university system is stuffed with anti-TRUTH people dedicated more to their job and income rather than TRUTH. Hence, the mediocrity.

  219. Neil

    @Flimmer

    In post #179 I give a fairly detailed explanation about how the Kinetic Particle Theory of Pressure can be used to explain why the gloves and suits will burst. Your example of a bicycle tire pressurized to 12bar or 12 atmospheres or 174psi against 1 atmosphere or ~15psi can be included in my explanation. Inside the tire wall would be 174billion particles and outside would be 15 billion particles for a 174 to 15 ratio or force factor of only 11.6. The condition of the wall separating 5psi from 1e-7torr, however, produces a force ratio of 5 billion to 2 or factor of 2.5billion.

    Force factors change significantly when pressures on one side of a membrane close to 0psi are approached. The differential pressure between 6psi and 1 psi is 5psi as is the differential pressure between 5psi and 0 but the force factors across a membrane between 6psi and 1psi versus between 5psi and something close to 0psi are significantly different.

    If a simple experiment, as I’ve described in an earlier post, is performed the membrane will burst proving the gloves and suits as hoaxes. There’s a reason space glove technology has not been commerically spun off by NASA. It’s a hoax and impossible. The gloves and space suits are made-for-slaves props. And, yes, the hoax has lasted fifty years mainly due to the continuing obstinence of slaves like you fighting for and defending their slavery.

  220. DrFlimmer

    Oh my goodness………
    Thanks, Neil. I do not even have to worry which comedy movie I should watch this evening (where I live it is already evening) – this is comedy enough, here!

    So, now it is the “truth” we are debating. I thought we were talking about scientific experiments and such things, but obviosly we slipped to philosophy. I quote Obi Wan Kenobi from Star Wars Episode 3 (which is sadly named 6, in these days) – Return of the Jedi:

    “Luke, you will find out, that many truth we hold to, strongly depend on our own point of view!”

    I think, this is “true”, indeed. From a scientific point of view, truth is something that does not exist.
    Physics, e.g., are searching for building blocks of the universe and how everything is made up. But we know that we will never ever find “the truth” about the universe. Physics is a quite good approximation to nature, but it is not nature itself. So the “truth” about nature remains hidden.

    I say that it is true that you cannot achieve peace with war and hate. Others will say that this is not true. Who is right and who is wrong?

    Truth always belongs to a point of view. You will always find people that will not accept your “truth”.
    An example? Take a look at this discussion! You say that it is true that no man ever made a step outside a spaceship. Most poeple will say otherwise. So, what is the truth? Yours or mine?

    There is also a difference between facts and truth. In this case it is a good way to quote Indiana Jones from the 3rd movie:

    “Archeology is the search for facts! Not truth! If it’s the truth you’re interested, the philosophy class is right down the hall.”

    An example:

    I am a student and will write my master’s thesis next year to earn the master’s degree in physics. This is a fact.
    I also believe in god and think that it is true that he exists. But this is far from being a fact. That’s the reason it is called “believe in god”.
    Furthermore, I think science and religion should not interfer with each other. This is my point of view!

    What do I want to say?

    What I want to say is that what you think could be true, is true from YOUR point of view – and probably not a fact. If you want to find facts, there is only one way to achieve them: Experiment. Go to NASA and ask for permission to test their spacesuits. This is your only chance to find facts and to convince everyone that you are right.

    Just speaking about your point of view will solve exactly nothing!

    This is my point of view.

    Changing the topic: How do you think “dark energy” was found? Ground-based telescopes weren’t good enough in 1998 to achieve such a discovery – only the HST was capable of doing that research! This is a fact!

  221. Neil

    @Flimmer–
    Yes, I know there’s all sorts of different metaphysical philosophical interpretations for the word “TRUTH” but I use it mainly to distinguish from “reality” which I interpret as human agreement. TRUTH is what happened. Reality is what people agree happened. They’re often different. In my use of the word “TRUTH”, it exists and can definitely be known or acquired.

    I encourage you to read this entire blog from the beginning because your recent entry has you talking about things and suggesting things that have already been discussed.

    As a Physics grad student, do you have access to a high vacuum chamber? I assume you do. The high vacuum pump on a helium leak checker would work. Would you care to be a servant of TRUTH by conducting the space suit/glove membrane experiment that I describe in post #47? You’ll have to be careful. If your advisor or any other faculty catch a whif of why you’re conducting such an experiment, you’ll be booted. Universities are dedicated to the preservation and perpetuation of the hoax. Ensure you close the HIVAC valve prior to pressurizing the outer side of the membrane. The gloves and suits are a hoax and as a physics grad student I’m confident you can understand the implications of force factors as revealed using the Kinetic Particle Theory of Pressure. The TRUTH is but a simple high vacuum experiment away. Dare to know the TRUTH!

    I don’t know anything about Dark Matter but I encourage you to use your imagination to determine alternative scenarios that don’t require the hoax Hubble to provide the results you seem so sure of.

  222. DrFlimmer

    I’m sorry, but of course I don’t have unlimitted access to all rooms in my department. The only key I have is for my own bureau and the “lumber-room” in my institute. This means I cannot conduct the experiment secretly and have to ask a professor. This would lead to my dismissal, according to your words.

    [...]In my use of the word “TRUTH”, it exists and can definitely be known or acquired.

    This is what I meant: This is your point of view!

    Btw: There is a difference between dark matter and dark energy. The problem is that the WMAP satallite confirmed dark energy to be existent. And it did so, say, 7 years after the discovery with the HST.

  223. Pat Montana

    Neil said: “If you have access to a high vacuum chamber, you are but a simple high vacuum experiment away from the TRUTH. Do you have such access?” and “Would you care to be a servant of TRUTH by conducting the space suit/glove membrane experiment that I describe in post #47?”

    You continue to say this over and over but will not provide a direct answer to the question “Why haven’t YOU done this experiment?” It would seem to me that you won’t do the experiment because you know it will prove you wrong. You’ve made claims that you are unwilling to provide empirical evidence for and then ask us to do the experiments for you. In fact, you have not provided one single example of empirical evidence for your claims.

    You also still have not answered my main question, so I will ask it to you directly for a 3rd time…

    Why have YOU not tracked down at least one of these people you claim were paid so well for their silence and exposed them?

    In the age of the internet, it would be a fairly simple matter to show they are living far to well for their reported income (naturally the Zionist slave masters would not allow these pay-offs to be reported on a 1040 to the IRS). A pay-off you can’t spend is worth nothing, so surely at least one of these “NASA Millionaires” has slipped up in a way you could expose right?

    Neil also said: “@Pat–Yes, some fibers like Kevlar have tensile strengths that exceed steel but any glove or suit woven from Kevlar would still be a composite material. You may have a weave of kevlar fibers but there are gaps between fibers especially if it’s constructed to remain flexible. The huge force factor will force the secondary materials through the gaps of the weave causing burst.”

    This is just flat out incorrect. If the relative suit pressure was high enough to force the bladder material through multiple layers of woven fabric, the relative pressure of the capsule should be more than sufficient to force all the gasket materials out of every crevice in the capsule (i.e. the hatch gaskets and window gaskets). Yet you agree the capsules exist and do in fact work. What you are describing would be like trying to push a basketball through a shower drain grate with a leaf blower.

  224. Neil

    @Flimmer–
    I like talking to you because you obviously possess intelligence and have admitted to being a grad student. I wonder if your shrinking into confusing metaphysical definitions for expressions is a way to avoid confronting the most obvious crimes and hoaxes that have been inflicted upon you and other people who know better than the official explanations foisted upon them. Find the vacuum pump and ask the staff guy in charge of it if he can keep a secret. Bypass the faculty. Never ask permission, always beg forgiveness.

    @Pat–
    We’ve already discussed that. I don’t have access.

    If you get a chance, you should visit the Smithsonian Air&Space Museum on the Mall in D.C. to study the hatch door of the Command Module. Compare it to a glove. Hopefully, you’ll then understand what I’m driving at. They didn’t make that Command Module out of a wicker basket covered in super-duper moon glove material.

    Track who down? What millionaires? When did I ever say anything other than astronauts were well paid for their silence? What do you expect them to say? Do you think they’re suddenly going to confess to me? It’ll take a subpoena and an official swearing-in before a Congressionally appointed independent investigation committee to get them to talk. Guarantees of amnesty would probably be necessary to prevent them from pleading the 5th.

  225. Pat Montana

    Neil said: “Track who down? What millionaires? When did I ever say anything other than astronauts were well paid for their silence?”

    So…how exactly are all the others who are “in on it” kept under control? You said in post #156 “Ballpark, I’d say a thousand. Astronauts, select control room ground crew, top contractor management and video and photographic fabricators.” If you account for the 12 astronauts, that leaves 988 (give or take) that have to be kept quiet. Actually I think your guess is way low, far more than 1,000 would have to know. How are they kept quiet? How is it that no one has managed to expose a secret this big from over 900 people? How about the folks who built the “ISS Prop” in orbit? Don’t you think one of them might have gone home to the wifey and said “We’re building a giant inflatable model of the freakin’ space station at work!” or something similar and she never mentioned it at the salon? When it comes down to it Neil, you can provide no empirical evidence for your claims that the equipment doesn’t work and you can not provide one shred of reliable testimony from someone who was “in on it”. If you could…you would instead of asking others to do it for you.

  226. Neil

    @Pat
    I admit I have been trolling for someone with access to a high vacuum pump to conduct what I consider a most important experiment.

    Secrecy is possible especially when it doesn’t have to be maintained by that many people. Sworn to secrecy, people will keep secrets. With the examples of the murders of Grissom, White and Chafee, only the most irresponsible would jeopardize their own and their families lives by spilling secrets.

    The entire edifice of NASA, Zionist control of the United States and possibly the United States itself is dependent upon nobody conducting the space suit membrane experiment that I’ve outlined.

    Completion of that experiment with the results that I predict would result in the exposure of NASA as a fraud with the full complicity of the criminal Zionist regime that has and continues to control American slaves. Our corrupt foreign-controlled government would fall.

    It would possibly result in the immediate cessation of our two illegal, unwinnable, bankrupting quagmire wars for Israel to enable our redirection against our greatest ever enemy, abomiNation Israel, that we would quickly and forcibly deconstruct.

    Liberation of the entire American nation and many others throughout the entire world is dependent upon a simple high vacuum experiment.

  227. Davidlpf

    I am glad I am Canadian and not part of the American slave nation.

  228. Pat Montana

    @ Davidlpf

    Ah! It ain’t that bad! You just gotta go throw the explosive rocks into the mouth of Vaal when the whistle blows. That and watch out for the poison dart plants, they are a bitch! LOL!

  229. Pat Montana

    Neil,

    Have you ever dealt with anyone, even on a local news basis, in the media? Most of them crave fame more than anything else in the world. If you had even a shred of believable evidence of a “moon landing conspiracy” and went to a media outlet like “Inside Edition” (or maybe even the local news channels) they would fall over themselves helping you get your vacuum chamber to conduct your experiment. Hell, they gave “Kato” Kaelin damn near a $million back when OJ went on trial, and he didn’t know squat about what happened! So they wouldn’t blink twice at spending a few hundred thousand to get you the equipment you needed if you had one shred of believability. The person who broke the story would be immortalized. It would be the biggest story ever!

    Do you know why they don’t? Because not one single moon hoax believer can provide a single shred of empirical evidence or reliable witness testimony. So it comes down to Occam’s Razor. Why should they (or any of us) believe this highly complicated conspiracy theory (in which any evidence that does not support it MUST be faked) when the simple applications of physics, chemistry, and logic supports that it actually occurred?

    By your own admission it would require at least 1,000 people to be “in on it”. I think that estimate is ridiculously low for a conspiracy of this magnitude, but even so. Can you tell me with a straight face that not 1 person in that 1,000 became a drunk, or a drug addict, or hooked on porn, or a uncontrollable gambler? Have you not seen what people are willing to do to satisfy their fix? Even people at the highest level are not immune (see Barney frank, Mel Reynolds, Mark Foley, and Larry Craig…2 Dems & 2 Reps, no bias). Not one of these 1,000+ people involved in the moon hoax (and as I said it probably requires many more) got so hard up for their fix that they wouldn’t sell the story? If you believe that you have a far more tenuous grasp on human nature than I thought.

    Granted…”Inside Edition” is pretty low on the totem pole. Even with all the crap going on in Iran, the Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is saying “go on Inside Edition…it ain’t that bad yet!” However, media exposure is media exposure. It simply comes down to the fact you can’t provide one single shred of reliable evidence or testimony. All you have is rants and web sites put up by a bunch of 3rd rate white supremacists and looneys. That does not constitute evidence.

  230. IVAN3MAN

    I have so far counted 33 instances (31 instances if you don’t count the two self-quotations) of the term “TRUTH™” used by Neil. :roll:

    P.S. Hey, Neil! In your list of conspiracies at #137, you neglected to mention the Contrail conspiracy! :P

  231. Davidlpf

    Becauase everyone know the more you say the truth the closer you are too it.

    Go figure he would not believe in contrails and everyone knows that is the real conspiracy.

  232. Pat Montana

    @IVAN3MAN….

    Wow! You either need to stop drinking or you haven’t had enough to drink! I am a patient man but I don’t think I could have gone back and made that count!

    So what is it…too drunk to care or killing time ’till the buzz kicks in? LOL!!

  233. Davidlpf

    I think we can make this thread a drinking game.
    Everytime Neil says slave you take a drink.
    Everytime Neil mentions Isreal, zionists or jews you take a drink.
    Everytime a ne conspiracy is mentioned only Ivan3man takes a drink.
    Everytime Neil whines about not getting a vacuum chamber Dr Flimmer takes a drink.
    Everytime he mentions the truth I take a drink of coke (have to drive).
    Everytime he mentions it being cover-up only it goes into space the BA takes a drink.

  234. Gee, I wonder if Neil lives in northern Idaho? Up in Bonner county, no doubt.

    Scaaaaaaryyyyyyy folk up yonder.

  235. Pat Montana

    And if he hits the exacta bet…”Truth is just a vacuum chamber experiment away!”…everyone passes their drink one person to the right and EVERYBODY drinks!

    In all honesty…I don’t think any of us can keep up. Even drinking Coke David is going to be bouncing off the walls…kinda like a kinetic particle theory experiment…now that I think about it! LOL!!! Funny how life works ain’t it?

  236. IVAN3MAN

    Pat Montana:

    Wow! You either need to stop drinking or you haven’t had enough to drink! I am a patient man but I don’t think I could have gone back and made that count!

    So what is it… too drunk to care or killing time ’till the buzz kicks in? LOL!!

    Neither… I simply engaged “Ctrl” + “F” on the keyboard; entered the word “TRUTH” in the “Find:” box, and then I pressed the “Next” button with each successive ‘hit’ count — easy!

    :cool:

    P.S. The above applies to the Firefox 3.0.11 browser, but the procedure is similar on most other browsers.

  237. Pat Montana

    yeah, I know…just had to try and inject some humor into this (of a different sort than Neil provides). Even using the “Find” function…it must have been a daunting task!

    BTW…Neil is gonna be mad about you trademarking “Truth”…ya know, you siding with the Zionist conspiracy and all!

  238. Sorry, I just read this one:

    I admit I have been trolling for someone with access to a high vacuum pump to conduct what I consider a most important experiment.

    One has to be careful of the context in which you say things like that.

    That “experiment” wouldn’t require a girly magazine and a jar of something slippery, would it?

  239. Pat Montana

    @ kuhnigget…

    LOL!!!! Yes…one must certainly consider context! One would also wonder just exactly where this “trolling” is taking place. The vast Zionist empire does not look highly on moral impropriety!

    I would also be worried about “capillary rupture” in sensitive places when employing a vacuum pump in a questionable manner!

    LOL!!!!

  240. Petrolonfire

    @ 236. Davidlpf:

    I think we can make this thread a drinking game.
    Everytime Neil says slave you take a drink.
    Everytime Neil mentions Isreal, zionists or jews you take a drink.
    Everytime a ne conspiracy is mentioned only Ivan3man takes a drink.
    Everytime Neil whines about not getting a vacuum chamber Dr Flimmer takes a drink.
    Everytime he mentions the truth I take a drink of coke (have to drive).
    Everytime he mentions it being cover-up only it goes into space the BA takes a drink.

    I’m in! :-D

    Do we start from here or do we have to go back to the start of the thread …? Hope we can start from here otherwise I’m going to run out of booze very quickly … ;-)

    @ neil: Nice trollin’ man, THX for the laughs – good Poe, buddy, good Poe. 8)

  241. @Neil
    I’d love to post the spacewalker photo again but everytime I do my comment is marked as spam since I already posted it. They also removed the original link from post 171. Here’s an image almost as good as the one I posted before in my link on my name.

  242. IVAN3MAN

    @ NGCHunter,

    That link at your post at #171 works fine for me.

  243. Nigel Depledge

    OK, I’m well late to the party, but, still…

    Charlie Young (12) said:

    Maybe they can spot some of that machinery we left up there in the late 60s, early 70s. That’s the last time we were able to get that kind of resolution.

    Not so.

    The Command Module pilots could neither see nor photograph the LEM when it was on the surface. The largest dimension of the LEM was about 2 m, and that is a pretty fine angular resolution even from about 75 km away (50 miles up, which I believe was the closest point [perilune?] on the CSM’s orbit to the lunar surface). The only time people have ever been able to see the Apollo hardware on the lunar surface is during the Apollo missions, when people were living in it.

    Photography has only got better since the early ’70s. LRO may indeed be the first lunar orbiter with the capability to photograph the Apollo hardware. Even if it were, where’s the scientific value in doing so? There are far more interesting things for it to spend its time doing (such as, oh I don’t know, learning new stuff, maybe?)*.

    * That’s not to say that it wouldn’t be pretty damned exciting from an historical point of view.

  244. Amalekite

    @ 155. NGCHunter:

    “I am Palestinean and I am a SEMITE too.”
    And I am a circus monkey. Anyone can claim to be anything online, I’m not impressed (nor do I believe a word you say). You’re just another jew hating racist.

    Well NGC Hunter I wouldn’t be surprised if _you_ were a circus monkey, you throw feces like one for sure and make about as much sense.

    Whether you believe it or not, and frankly I don’t give a toss what you think, I am Palestinean – not living in Palestine but a Palestinean nonetheless. I know what I’m talking about and you simply do NOT.

    Jew hating – yes. I hate the doctrine of the Jewish thugs who have murdered many of my relatives incl, several of my grandparents. Who are still humiliating and threatening other relatives. Thugs who my family fled and who stole our families home.

    I do indeed hate the ideology of the fundamentalist Jews with their made-up self-serving garbage about being “Chosen people” and that our land was supposedly promised to them. It wasn’t.

    NH: “Palestineans” may be the same race, but I hold the jewish people distinct since they generally came from europe to reinhabit their ancestral land”

    (Emphasis added.)

    “Ancestral” land? WRONG. The Askenazi Jews ancestral land is Europe as they were kicked out of the Palestine two thousand years ago.

    Unlike us indigenous Palestineans, my people, who have lived in Palestine throughout their existence.

    Even the jews own holy texts admit that the were kicked out of Palestine repeatedly being exiled for their crimes and failures to get along with their neighbours – the Babylonians ,Egyptians and Romans all expelled them. Moreover, Abraham was originally born the city of Ur which is now modern Iraq. Jews have NO real ancestral land – because they could never settle down and get on with their neighbours – because the jews beliefs are so utterly loathsome and rightly despised by all non-jews. Jews not non-jews made this division and caused this problem. The jews even got expelled from Europe too in a way and were always isolated from and hated by the populations they settled in whether they settled in Shechem – modern Nabulus or Vienna.

    Why? If you believe the jews its also the fault of everybody else. But, of course, its NOT.

    Hitler’s and all the other anti-jewish persecutions didn’t just happen for NO reason – jews were guilty of many, many crimes against every group that they came in contact with. They usually exploited the poor, stole and incited their own mistreatement and its part of their whole set of beliefs and relations to others – Jews have this racist arrogant fanatical belief and they think they are superior to others. Jewish beliefs are little different from the Nazi’s – and this is clear in their behavour today.

    Jewish culture and religion is quite simply one of malevolent antagonism inimical towards every other group of humans on this planet – to jews we’re all considered “goyim” to be disdained, exploited or extermined like they exterminated the Amalekites and Jebusites.

    NH: - yes I think Palestinean “terrorists” [actually Resistence fighters - ed] are generally racists even if their outward appearance is similar – you yourself accuse Jews of being anti-semetic but you claim you’re incapable of it yourself because you’re the same race; you take the cake for hypocrisy.

    Palestineans aren’t racist – we’re just fighting for our land back against the powers ocuupying it. Fatah, Hamas, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and the other so-called “terrorist” groups are no more than the Resistence in the nazi-occupied areas of France pin WWII.

    Truth is that the Isrealis are the ones who introduced terrorism to Palestine way back when it was a British mandate – look up the Stern gang and the likes of Yitzhak Shamir – the jewish terrorists murdered British soldiers and Palestinean farmers alike and tragically they got their artifical alien crusader state.

    How much better and how different history might’;ve been if the British ha ddoen as theyshould’ve and completely banned any jewish settlements in Palestine and prevented Israel ever being created. How much better off the world would be then! No Israel would mean no Al-Quadea, no conflict with the Islamic and Western worlds. 9-11 and the war on Iraq, perhaps may not have been directly thejew sfault but indirectly – it absolutely is.

    Don’t shoot the mesenge for pointing out the truth – the stark simple truth is that :

    the MAJORITY OF SEMITIC peoples are Arab or Muslim and jews are a *tiny* group of Semitic tribes within the overall broad Semitic category.

    Jews have fought and exterminated other Semitic cultures (eg. Amalekites , Jebusites, Moabites etc ..), theyare currently trying to masscare and completely exterminate our people the Palestineans.

    As well as making the jews a generally nasty, unethical thuggish, racist bunch, this means the Jews are themselves anti-Semites!

    This fact you just cannot deny – & indeed you haven’t even tried rather than doing so NH merely launched an offensive personal ad hominem attack on me instead.

    NH: No matter where you come from, the middle east or your mommy’s basement, you’re here to troll.

    See what I mean? Not to mention attributing motives and casting rude aspersions.

    Besides why does NGCHunter think I’m NOT Palestinean I wonder … could it be that NGCHunter thinks that NO Palestinean can speak english well enough or have access to a good enough computer to argue for their people … :roll:

    You NGC HUnter, you yourself are an anti-Palestinean, Islamophobic racist. Go on prove me wrong. If, that is you really are any more than a troll yourself – maybe you’re really the Israeli soldier who murdered Rachel Corrie crushing her to death under your tank-bulldozer cross or the murder of Mohammad Al Douri, killed in his father’s arms by a Jewish sniper terrified at the prospect of a Palestiean toddler.

    Good job ignoring my question completely btw, that was top troll form. We now return to spaceflight conspiracy discussion, already in progress. Anyone else think ISS and spaceflight in general are hoaxes?

    What question? I am NOT the one claiming the ISS and spaceflight generally are hoaxes. I do NOT believe that to be the case and have never said otherwise. And this discussion has been much broader than that for a very long time.

  245. NGCHunter

    @Amalekite
    “Hitler’s and all the other anti-jewish persecutions didn’t just happen for NO reason”

    In case you didn’t notice, we’re not here to talk about how much you hate Jews or see just how racist you can be. If you think ISS and spaceflight is a Jewish conspiracy, then by all means let’s hear it, otherwise go troll somewhere else. An educated multilingual individual would hopefully act better than a racist, Jew-hating troll, but perhaps I’m wrong and I just have too much hope for humanity.

  246. NGCHunter

    @Nigel Depledge
    “The Command Module pilots could neither see nor photograph the LEM when it was on the surface. The largest dimension of the LEM was about 2 m, and that is a pretty fine angular resolution even from about 75 km away (50 miles up, which I believe was the closest point [perilune?] on the CSM’s orbit to the lunar surface).”

    Not true, check out these images:
    http://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a15/as15pan-comp.jpg
    Off the top of my head, the largest dimension on the LEM’s ascent base was 5m. Still hard to see, but possible, especially when the shadows are long

  247. T.E.L.

    I’d love it if the Jews really are in secret control of the economy. My step-daughter, being half-Jewish, should be delving into her half-millions of Jew-money and start paying for half of her education.

  248. Charlie Young

    #246 Nigel
    Thank you for clarifying my remarks. I actually should have said “the best resolution we have had since the astronauts on the moon took their photos at the landing sites.” I’m a real photo geek and should have been more on my game with that comment. I realize a spacecraft orbiting the moon at 80 km would need some extreme optics and fine resolution film or sensors to get an image of a 2 meter object. Current military and other earth surveillance and imaging satelites can resolve to this level, but the Apollo astronauts were not carrying that kind of equipment. Mostly hand held Hasselblads modified for use in space. I believe the biggest lens on board was a 200 mm tele and that one was on the moon surface. The film resolution was pretty fine for the existing technology. 50 ASA B&W was the finest grain they had and most of the other film was around 200 ASA. This was more than adequate for the wonderful snapshots they brought home!

    I do agree the LRO has more important work to do surveying for potential landing and base sites. Why spend millions to take a snapshot of history? It would make a pretty spectacular PR shot, though, if the resolution were good enough.

  249. Amalekite

    Fact – The Jews are hypocrites because:

    They claim to hate racism but actually believe in it themselves.

    The whole jewish religion is based on a racist premise and is self-obssessedly focussed on their own small set of tribes – originally twelve but now just two surviving groups out of all Humanity – and claims these tribes are supposedly superior to all the rest of Humanity. The Jews have always been hated – just like the nazis because they’re beliefs are very similar only with different names – Aryans vs Jew.

    Claim to be victims of genocide whilst committing it themselves.

    See the fate of the Amalekites, Jebusites, Canaanites and so many others. Or just turn on the TV news and look at what they’re doing to the Palestineans in Gaza, the West bank and “Israeli Arabs” within “Israel”.

    Demand other countries give up WMDs while having them themselves.

    That the Jewish state has its own nuclear missiles and bombs is an open secret – everyone knows they do and yet they are not investigated, harassed or forced to surrender them. No, poor old Iraq and Iran that don’t have the Bomb are absurdly seen as regional threats instead despite having been the victims of Israeli aggression rather than vice-versa.

    Israel claim a “right to exist” and a “right to self-defence” – whilst denying the same to the Palestineans, Iranians, Iraqi’s, etc ..

    Why is it that people don’t insist the Jews accept Palestines right to exist and allow Palestine’s right of self defence to imply it can attack inside its enemies territories? Why this double standard? Answer : Anti-Palestinean, anti-Arab racism, the Western hypocrisy and Orientalist Colonial Imperialism still at play – nothing else explains it.

    If you support Israel then whether you accept it or not you are being racist. Not only becaus Israel is itself an Apartheid colonial nation like old South Africa, but also because you are displaying an unconscious – or perhaps even conscious bias against “Middle Easterners.” (Or more accurately “South West Asians” the very term “Middle East” reflects a racist Orientalist approach.)

    Israel violates International Law. It has done so for far longer & to a far worse degree than any other nation.

    So why have we not invaded it like we did Iraq which we did for far less? Why should Jews literally be able to get away with murder – and mass murder, theft, genocide and more too. is it just their money and obscenely disproportionate anti-democratic media and political power? Is it just the anti-SouthWest Asian prejudice? A mixture of all these plus religio-cultural politics? Whatever the cause its time it stopped and Israel was made accountable for its cruel, brutal, inhuman actions and policies and ceased being the apartheid state it is.

    Also here’s an assortment of some of the truths the Israeli apologists lobby aren’t telling us :

    The 1947 UN partition plan granted 55 % of the Mandate to Israel. By 1970 they had occupied all of it. (Plus more – Golan Heights, Sinai etc …) Gaza & the West bank compose 22% of Mandate of Palestine.

    (Gilbert, 1993 & Reinhart, 2002.)

    ***

    Death toll from Sept. 29, 2000 to June 28, 2004: Israeli Dead: 905
    Palestinian Dead: 3,049. (These figures speak for themselves.)
    - Source : Middle East Policy Council Website.

    ****

    Since the creation of Israel in 1948 :

    200,000 Palestinians have been killed.

    5,000,000 refugees have been created.

    21,000 square kilometres of Palestinean and neighbouring nations land has been annexed.

    385 Palestinean towns and villages have been destroyed.

    300 billion military dollars have been spent.

    100 plus WMD’s have been illegally manufactured by Israel.

    65 UN resolutions have been ignored by Israel.

    - Source : ‘The Age’ , 4-5-2004.

  250. Amalekite

    @ 248. NGCHunter:

    @Amalekite “Hitler’s and all the other anti-jewish persecutions didn’t just happen for NO reason.”

    In case you didn’t notice, we’re not here to talk about how much you hate Jews or see just how racist you can be. If you think ISS and spaceflight is a Jewish conspiracy, then by all means let’s hear it, otherwise go troll somewhere else. An educated multilingual individual would hopefully act better than a racist, Jew-hating troll, but perhaps I’m wrong and I just have too much hope for humanity.

    Whats this? Another Ad Hominem attack on the messenger for telling you the truth, my circus monkey “friend” .. ???

    I’m NOT the racist NCG Hunter – you are – as has been demonstrated by your failure to answer all my valid points and to try to end a discussion you know you are losing.

    What’s the matter never had a Palestinean argue back?

    Always had your machine gun ready to intimidate or your settler fellow jewish fundamentalists handy to burn the olive fields and bash and terrorise your Palestinean victims? Not this time.

    Can’ t you deal with the irrefutable facts, logic and outspoken truth eh Israeli thug?

    Prove me wrong, NGC Hunter, I dare you.

    Look at what I’ve said. Think about it. Then have the decency to admit your defeat.

    Because while you may have the jewish propaganda, racism and thuggery on your side, its all you have. I and the other Palestineans have the facts, the logical case, the samoud (loosely translated as “persistence / endurance” but really a lot more than that) and the Human ethics that even you Jews cannot take.

  251. Nigel Depledge

    Neil (17) said:

    Ten American astronauts allegedly walked on the moon before NASA finally got the last two Apollo 17 astronauts to allegedly photograph themselves with their big blue Earth home in the background.

    Hmmm, let’s think about this shall we?

    The Apollo landing sites were all on the face of the moon that is permanently turned towards Earth, and all except Apollo 17 were nearer to the center of that hemisphere than they were to the edges.

    Therefore … the Earth would always have been high in the sky at the Apollo landing sites. It would take a very wide angle shot to get both an astronaut and the Earth in the same frame.

    Duh!

    But even then, there are problems with those two photographs. They look like fake doctored photos.

    And you can tell a real photo from a fake just by looking, can you?

    They’re close-ups with astronauts wrapping themselves in the American flag and they don’t show the astronauts actually standing on the surface of the moon.

    Well, no, because the camera had to be angled upwards to get the Earth in the frame.

    They reveal an oddly small mediocre Earth when an Earth seen from the moon should be four times the diameter, sixteen times the area and fifty times brighter than a moon seen from Earth.

    Yeah, but even if your calcs are correct, that’s still only 2 frakkin’ degrees of arc! Which is small. And the astronaut would have been a much larger object, wearing white and brightly lit by direct sunlight – so it’s no wonder the Earth looks dim at the same exposure settings.

    And you have no idea what kind of lens was used – even a slightly wide angle lens would make the Earth appear pretty small because it is so far away.

    Defying belief, those are the only two photos of astronauts allegedly on the moon with Earth in the background.

    Well, either defying belief or:
    (2) Illustrating how hard a shot it was to compose, owing to the high angle of the Earth in the lunar sky; or
    (3) Illustrating that they saved most of the film for shots of the moon (they had to carry all the film with them, and weight was at a premium).

    To illustrate the third option with an example, let’s say you travel to Paris. Are you gonna take photos of the Eiffel Tower, or are you gonna take photos of the sky?

    If you were one of the previous ten astronauts on the moon, would you have traveled that long dangerous way and not had your photo taken with the Earth in the background?

    Well, given that the Earth was really high in the sky, yeah, I would have travelled all that way and coped with not having the Earth in the background of a photo.

    There’s not a single photo of the unloading and assembly of any of the moon rovers allegedly used on the last three missions.

    Again, maybe they were saving the film for shots of the moon itself. Maybe time was at a premium too (which, BTW, it really was), and there was no time to schedule for shots of the unfolding of the lunar rover (yeah, unfolding, not assembling – do you know anything about the Apollo hardware?).

    Or, hey, here’s a thought – maybe it took both astronauts to actually unfold the lunar rover so there was no-one to take pics of it. And if they had taken photos of the unfolding of the lunar rover, of what would it convince you?

    The rovers themselves represent suicidal designs for 1/6th gravity environments. With high centers of gravity, narrow wheelbases, Earth-equivalent momentum (Momentum=mv), unknown terrain and weighing only 1/6th their Earth weight, they would have tipped over in every turn.

    1/6 of their weight, but exactly the same inertia. And what makes you think their CoG was high relative to the width of the wheelbase. Were you not aware that the rovers were battery powered, and that those batteries would have given it a substantial proportion of its weight low down. The whole rover was as light as it could be made, but they didn’t have Li-ion batteries in 1971!

    Hey, here’s a thought, maybe they didn’t drive it all that fast!

    Go on, go and look up the actual speeds at which the lunar rover was driven. If memory serves, it was no more than about 20 mph (and may not even have been 20 mph).

    The method that Apollo and ISS(International Space Station) astronauts on EVA(Extra Vehicular Activity) cool themselves is extremely problematic.

    No, really it’s very simple.

    All engineering students are taught that there are three modes of heat transfer, conduction, convection and radiation but no mention is ever made of the method used to cool astronauts in the vacuum of space.

    Conduction. Water is allowed to evaporate (no air, remember, so it does this very efficiently), the evaporation cools the heat exchanger in the PLSS, and the heat exchanger cools the fluid pumped around the EVA suits.

    According to NASA, astronauts allegedly use nickel porous plate ice sublimators.

    OK, so the water freezes and then sublimes.

    I’ve done a lot of searching and have even been in contact with the alleged manufacturers of the cooling systems, United Technologies’ Hamilton Sunstrand and have received the standard basic propaganda baloney about how they work but have been unable to acquire any specifications or procedures for their operation.

    Hmmm, let’s see. These things were originally designed, what about 45 – 50 years ago, right?

    So what makes you expect that the company kept the specs, or that anyone who worked on it is still there? Your expectation is unreasonable.

    As for the modern counterparts, what makes you think you have any legitimate expectation that an engineering company will share detailed technical information with some random member of the public?

    It seems that the transition from room temperature at pressure to room temperature at vacuum to 123C(253F) surface moon temperature at vacuum might pose some complicated procedural problems to keep astronauts healthy. NASA has big walk-in vacuum chambers and I’m confident they come supplied with radiation lamps. I don’t know about you, but I’ve never seen any demonstration of a live subject wearing an EVA suit being pumped down to 1e-7 torr with the heat lamps switched on. It should be simple enough to demonstrate. Would you volunteer to wear the suit during the demo?

    Yeah, why not?

    But maybe NASA has better things to do with their expensive facilities than pander to the delusions of lunatics?

    I’ve worked on several different vacuum systems and I’ve searched industrial suppliers high and low in search for a flexible glove attachment for commercial vacuum chambers and have yet to find one. They would come in very handy especially during maintenance to be able to manipulate things inside the chamber using your hand while the chamber was under vacuum.

    Maybe so, but in your case the pressure difference will be about 15 psi (1 bar), whereas the EVA suits of the Apollo astronaust were at 4 – 5 psi (about 0.33 bar) so the pressure difference was far smaller. Even so, the suits inflated and were thus hard to move. All of the Apollo astronauts who visited the lunar surface commented on how tired their hands got just holding stuff, because of having to work against the pressure of the suit.

    Astronauts have allegedly been using them since the 60’s with Ed White’s alleged Gemini spacewalk and still none are available for sale. Strange.

    Because, numpty, they won’t work on Earth. If you really worked with vacuum systems, and had a genuine interest in the Apollo missions, you would know this already.

    I don’t know the link but you can find it; I know it’s on YouTube somewhere. Look for the Apollo 11 post-mission press conference and wonder yourself why Armstrong, Aldrin and Collins act psychotic. One reporter near the end of the conference asks them “what does going to the moon mean?” The response to the question is truly bizarre.

    Assuming that was actually the question, perhaps it is the question that’s bizarre. Try to imagine yourself striving to achieve something (let’s say, being the first to reach the South Pole), working for years on nothing else, with that as your sole focus. Then, when you achieve it, someone comes along and asks you what it means. How can you hope to answer that?

    Besides, if you read about the Apollo missions, you will learn that all 21 of the Apollo astronauts who visited the moon were severely deprived of sleep when they got home. Sleeping in freefall is difficult, and can you imagine the excitement of the astronauts who actually landed on the moon? Don’t you think you would be too excited to sleep properly if you were on the frakkin’ moon!?

    Numerous unmanned lunar orbiters have been sent to the moon since Apollo from the United States, former USSR, Europe, Japan, India and China and yet, not a single orbiter was equipped with a camera with sufficient resolution to take a photo of any of the six alleged Apollo landing sites at known stationary positions.

    So? They did not need to develop the camera technology to that extent in order to do what they were designed to do (i.e. science).

    Even Google manages the task photographing our homes with their GoogleEarth cameras orbiting at even higher Earth altitudes contending with the additional burden of atmospheric interference.

    OK, several things here. How big are the telescopes in low-earth orbit? Pretty big. Now, how much do they weigh? Quite a lot. What was most at a premium on the Apollo missions? Weight! What is at a premium on any mission to the moon, manned or unmanned? Weight! Why? Because the moon is 1200 time farther away than LEO. If you were developing a lunar mission, why would you load it with a telescope that is so heavy as to jeopardise the entire mission if you did not need to ?

    There’s another thing here – a typical house is at least 4 times the size of the LEM descent stage, so being able to photograph houses from LEO is not such a big deal.

    It’s absurd; you know we and the Japanese would have sent cameras that got the job done.

    Why?

    Despite claims by NASA that satellites orbiting the smaller diameter moon at lower altitudes lack the camera resolution to photograph Apollo remnants, they recently released a photo allegedly taken by the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter of the Mars Phoenix Lander in motion as it descended beneath its parachute to the Martian surface.

    MRO has the best camera that has ever been launched beyond Earth orbit (not counting the LRO, which I think uses the same technology). Certainly, its resolution is way better than anything that is in orbit around the moon (at least, it will be until LRO gets into lunar orbit).

    Although they can’t acquire a photograph of a stationary object on the moon at an exactly known location despite unlimited opportunities, they claim they have acquired a photograph of a moving object on Mars in a previously unknown location on the first try. Very strange inconsistency.

    Not strange at all if you think about it for a bit.

    If you carefully observe the IMAX video “Space Station” narrated by Tom Cruise, you might notice that it consists of a long compilation of short carefully edited sequences none of which is longer than could be filmed aboard a Vomit Comet.

    Proving what? That it could have been filmed on a plane? So?

    Do you have any evidence that it was filmed on a plane? No, I didn’t think so.

    You might notice that recent coverage of ISS activities have been very strange also. $Billions in improvements have allegedly been made but we’re never invited aboard for a tour. Zionist tourists visit but no video or photographs are shared. ISS allegedly makes one orbit every ninety minutes for a sunrise or sunset every forty-five minutes and I’ve yet to see any video of one or the other. No photographs exist of any of the ISS in silhouette against a brilliant star-filled Universe on the dark side of Earth. They could easily take these photos from an approaching space shuttle or the fully extended robot arm on ISS.

    Well, maybe they’re all busy, doing their jobs. When the Shuttle is close enough to the ISS that the ISS appears large, it’s on its final docking approach, which is the most dangerous part of the mission bar take-off and re-entry. Not the best time for sightseeing.

    Plus, I’d imagine that they always schedule these approaches so that they occur in daylight, so the pilots can see what they’re doing.

    It seems to me from your comment that you have (a) not taken the trouble to understand the objections you raise; (b) not taken the time to think about the objections you raise (I mean, seriously, when complaining about not having shots of the astronauts and Earth in the same frame, did it never occur to you to wonder how high the Earth would be in the sky?); (c) failed to present any evidence to support your speculation as being anything better than speculation; (d) ignored any evidence that does not fit your scenario (e.g. the soviet tracking data that, if you are correct, could have blown the whole thing wide open and been a massive PR coup for the USSR); and (e) failed to define any motivation for this conspiracy.

    Your arguments are flimsy at best, and delusional at worst.

  252. Amalekite

    @ 249. T.E.L. :

    I’d love it if the Jews really are in secret control of the economy. My step-daughter, being half-Jewish, should be delving into her half-millions of Jew-money and start paying for half of her education.

    Sorry to bring bad news TEL but the Jews are exclusive racists and being even half-non-jew renders her NOT a jew in the rabbinical authorities eyes. Don’t forget these are the same priestly courts than thought Jesus was an evil criminal for healing leapers on the sabbath. Petty, bigoted and mean-spirited doesn’t even begin to describe them.

    BTW. The Jews also “cast off” their non-Jewish wives in the OT – with callous disregard to what would happen to their loving partners and mothers of their children. The jewsh “prophets’ that preached such intolerance areheld as role models and heroes to the Jews – never mind, the reality that their conduct is monstrously evil in human terms.

    Like I’ve noted, Judaism is nothing more than an overgrown race hate cult.

    It is long overdue that the whole world wakes up to this irrefutable fact.

  253. NGCHunter

    @Amalekite
    “I’m NOT the racist NCG Hunter – you are – as has been demonstrated by your failure to answer all my valid points and to try to end a discussion you know you are losing.”
    What’s this? A racist troll getting pissed off that I’m going to ignore his off-topic racist rants? Rant away all you want, I’m no longer going to respond to it, not because I think a terror sympathizing racist troll makes ANY points worth reading, but because I’m not going to participate in your effort to clog this thread. If and when you want to talk about spaceflight, I’ll listen, otherwise shut up.

  254. Amalekite

    Want more examples of Jewish inhumanity and sick, genocidal evil – all celebrated and even advocated in the jews own sacred texts?

    See the Bible, Chapter Nineteen (19th) Book of Judges (Judges 19) for the tale of the Levite (Priests) Concubine.

    This concubine (sex-slave /second -class wife) had run away from her Levite [Priest tribe/caste] master. The Levite went to take her home & was doing so when the Benjaminite- a fellow Israelite tribe – attacked thehosue they were staying in, the Levite (Jewish priest) gave his concubine to them, she got pack-raped and murdered.

    Finding her corpse left on his door step the next morning, the Priest chopped her body into eleven pieces and sent a piece to each of the other Jewish tribes as a bloody call for vengeance.

    The other Jewish tribes then go to war with and slaughter nearly all the Benjaminites – & all their women – Then to stop the tribe of Benjamin going extinct …

    … *Another* Israelite village (Jabesh-Gilead if memory serves?) is plundered and destroyed and _its_ women handed over to the few surviving Benjaminite tribesmen as their “wives.” King Saul later comes from this tribe to be the first Jewish King.

    The Levite who handed his concubine over for rape and murder then incited the near-genocide of the Benjaminites goes unpunished and uncondemned for his cowardly, selfish & tribe-hate-inciting actions.

    But there’s lots, lots more eg. for another case see the Bible, Thirteenth (13th) Chapter in the second book of Samuel (Samuel 2 : 13?) for King David’s son, Amnon, raping his sister, Tamar.

    See further in Samuel, Judges and Kings for all sorts of weird, sick, ugly, stuff like Absalom screwing his daddy’s harem in public after killing his rapist brother Amnon; King David arranging the death of a cuckolded husband, Uriah the Hittite, so he can get away with getting Uriah’s wife, Bathsheba, pregnant & so forth … King David of course is considered an especially holy and great Jewish model and is thought tohave been one of Gods favourite people.

    Also see the “book of Leviticus” generally for weird, bizarre, pointless & brutally punished obscure Jewish laws. (Still current to fundamentalists?)

    Plus some better known but equally weird and bizarre ones eg. what exactly does an all-powerful god want with the foreskins off men’s genitals?

    & god (aka “Yahweh” / “Jehovah” ) is a meant to have chosen the Jews as some sort of specially good race or tribe or 12!?!

  255. T.E.L.

    Amalekite Said:

    “Sorry to bring bad news TEL but the Jews are exclusive racists and being even half-non-jew renders her NOT a jew in the rabbinical authorities eyes.”

    I don’t think you got the joke, Retard.

    You think people should be free of oppression? If so it means that no one has to take anyone’s mere word for things, including yours. If you want to claim something this outrageous, you’re going to need to cough up more than just your words. The Bible doesn’t count; that’s just more words and not even up-to-date words. They may even be fictitious words. And this has nothing to do with whether Israel has a nuclear arsenal. Of course they do. I won’t even argue against the Israeli government as arrogant and privilegist. What I don’t buy is the notion that Jewry pulls all the World’s strings, making everyone else dance to their tune. If they’re as well-organized and omnipresent as all that, then I don’t see what mere mortals can do to change it. Whatever you think of Judaism, the Jews are mere flesh and will fail in the long run, alongside the Christians, the Muslims, the Nazis, everyone. All success leads, in due time, to failure. Life leads to death. The normal curve pulls everyone’s strings.

  256. Amalekite

    @ 255. NGCHunter:

    @Amalekite : “ I’m no longer going to respond to it, not because I think a terror sympathizing racist troll makes ANY points worth reading, but because I’m not going to participate in your effort to clog this thread. If and when you want to talk about spaceflight, I’ll listen, otherwise shut up.”

    I’ll take that as NCG Hunter’s admission of defeat – witnessed by everyone here.

    NCG Hunter simply cannot argue rationally with me so he just abuses me, sticks his metaphorical fingers in his ears and refuses to particpate like the sulking, dumb bully he is.

    A typical jewish practice BTW.

    Incidentally, no I won’t shut up – I will keep telling the world the truth and the all-too often suppressed Palestinean and human sides of the story and eventually they will listen and understand. However long it takes, the nightmare of the Jews will occur one day. Palestine will be free and the Jews will be seen for what they are: evil, demented, hypocritical thuggish racists.

  257. Amalekite

    @ 257. T.E.L. Says:

    I don’t think you got the joke, Retard.

    Another ad hominem. Why thanks, I’ll add it to my collection. :-P

    You think people should be free of oppression?

    Yes – particularly my people the Palestineans.

    If so it means that no one has to take anyone’s mere word for things, including yours. If you want to claim something this outrageous, you’re going to need to cough up more than just your words.

    Already done, retard! (See I can say that too!)

    Haven’t you read all my earlier posts – theres plenty of factual evidence and logical argument there. NCG Hunter and now clearly yourself are not even trying to refute it so adding further evidence to how overwhelming the case must be! You can’t disprove what I’ve said or argue against it so you just resort to name calling. Sad on your part I must say.

    And this has nothing to do with whether Israel has a nuclear arsenal. Of course they do. I won’t even argue against the Israeli government as arrogant and privilegist.

    You forgot to add hypocritical and racist.

    So if you admit Israel has nukes why is it wrong for Iran to want a nuclear deterent too? I’ll give you the short and accurate answer – clearly its NOT.

    What I don’t buy is the notion that Jewry pulls all the World’s strings, making everyone else dance to their tune. If they’re as well-organized and omnipresent as all that, then I don’t see what mere mortals can do to change it.

    Ask Mahatma Gandhi or Nelson Mandela. ;-)

    Mere mortals can have some role to play in life especially when they work together in a good cause or launch resistence movements against Apartheid or Israel.

    Israel is an apartheid colonial state – if enough people realise this it will follow South Africa into history’s dustbin. I’m working as hard as I can to see that happen as soon as possible – it makes the world a far better place.

    As for how much of the World and the West esp. the Zionists control – simple answer – way too much with far too terrible a set of consquences for the rest of Humanity.

    Whatever you think of Judaism, the Jews are mere flesh and will fail in the long run, alongside the Christians, the Muslims, the Nazis, and everyone else. All success leads, in due time, to failure. Life leads to death. The normal curve pulls everyone’s strings.

    Nice philosophy. Are you admitting Israel & Judaism is doomed then?

    Let’s all just hope it doesn’t take out too much of the rest of the planet when it goes and that it departs from the scene sooner rather than later. :-)

    Israel incidentally is doing great harm to the USA as demonstrated by the Israeli influence on the Neo-Cons and Lesser Bush getting them into the quagmire of the illegal invasion of Iraq. Plus there’d be no 9-11, no absurd and counter-productive “war on terror” if it weren’t for Israel as I explained earlier. And, oh yes, oil would still be cheaper too. ;-)

    Why do Americans, I wonder, permit their national interests and country generally to suffer so much for the sake of the Israelis?

    Why should the USA give Israel a dime and sacrifice so much of its international diplomacy, reputation and work on the altar of Israel’s continuing Occupation of Palestine in violation of UN law.

    How much more money would be spent on NASA and space exploration and good science if it wasn’t wasted needlessly and wrongly supporting the sadistic apartheid military theocracy of Israel???

    (Hey there’s a space exploration reference for you NCGHunter – care to come back and admit your defeat again a bit less grudgingly now?) :-P

  258. NGCHunter

    “There’s not a single photo of the unloading and assembly of any of the moon rovers allegedly used on the last three missions.”

    Unloading the rover is a 2 man job as anyone who has actually bothered to do a bit of research and see the training videos would know – both astronauts had to work together to undo the cords and let the rover out of the bay. There’s no one left to slack off and take photos of the other 2 doing all the work. Furthermore, the video camera they brought could only be remotely controlled by houston when it was attached to the rover, which leaves you with a chicken and egg problem.

  259. NGCHunter

    @Amalekite
    “Hey there’s a space exploration reference for you NCGHunter – care to come back and admit your defeat again a bit less grudgingly now?”

    Touting your own horn and declaring “victory” because I won’t play games with a racist 9/11 conspiracy troll is really beneath reply, but since you seem to think you’re now talking about spaceflight let me just hit you with a little thing called a fact: there are about 42 lines of trolling before you started to say a word about NASA or spaceflight, while only 5 lines were pretending to be on subject. Why should I respond to that? If you really are what you pretend to be, please, do us all a favor and make a mistake on that suicide belt you were working on before you came here. You obviously have no interest in the original debate. It’s unfortunate that you managed to derail things for this long.

  260. Everyone – Neil is enjoying all of this focus and debate. Let’s all just ignore him and the problem will be solved.

    IGNORE NEIL!!

  261. T.E.L.

    Amalekite Said:

    “So if you admit Israel has nukes why is it wrong for Iran to want a nuclear deterent too?”

    It’s not wrong. I never said it is. Tell you what, though: it’s a misplaced priority for anyone in that part of the world to have nukes. It’s unfortunate that anyone has them at all; but at least the U.S. and the former U.S.S.R. were always properly afraid to use them against each other. Both went to great lengths to strategically interfere with the use of their own nuclear stockpiles, to make it hard to launch attacks; and in the six decades since nukes were invented, they’ve only been used twice as acts of war, and even then only at the end of one uniquely massive war. Since then they’ve killed fewer people than smoking, driving cars, overeating, or lynchings.

    In contrast, there are now nations in Asia and the Middle East which have been blood-enemies since ancient times. India and Pakistan are already overdue to lob bombs at each other. Jews and Arabs have been at each others’ throats like pathetic little children for generations. If you put enough nukes in that part of the World, they will use them. I cannot overstress how childish the situation is. The fewer countries that have nukes, the fewer can use them in acts of shortsighted, foolish hatred.

    “Nice philosophy. Are you admitting Israel & Judaism is doomed then?”

    Well duh. I just said it, didn’t I? It’s doomed, Islam is doomed. Everyone’s pet religion is doomed.

    “Already done, retard! (See I can say that too!)”

    Wow. No you’ve hurt my feelings real bad. Whatever will I do to comfort myself now that you’ve made that word appear on my screen?

    Jerk. There’s nothing you can write to hurt me or anyone else here.

  262. Neil

    Nigel (253) said:

    The Apollo landing sites were all on the face of the moon that is permanently turned towards Earth, and all except Apollo 17 were nearer to the center of that hemisphere than they were to the edges.
    Therefore … the Earth would always have been high in the sky at the Apollo landing sites. It would take a very wide angle shot to get both an astronaut and the Earth in the same frame.

    All six moon landings were conveniently positioned at a time and place where the Earth would be high in the sky. This in itself lends support to the missions being hoaxes. Fighting for attention and funding, NASA surely would have timed or positioned the landings so our big, beautiful, blue Earth home was nearer the horizon to make for more spectacular video and photos. Also, with an Earth casting fifty times the reflected light on the moon as a moon casts on Earth, Earthlight alone would have been amply sufficient for the astronauts to conduct their work relieving them of the radiation and glare of a sun cast upon them. Moon in nothing but Earthlight would have been cool especially if the Earth were close to the horizon. Also, even with the Earth overhead, an astronaut would only have to position his helmet 45 degrees upward for the other astronaut to get a shot of Earth reflected in the visor. It would have been a famous photo.

    And you can tell a real photo from a fake just by looking, can you?
    I can’t tell you the technical reasons why I think it is but when I see an obvious superimposition, I can tell.

    They’re close-ups with astronauts wrapping themselves in the American flag and they don’t show the astronauts actually standing on the surface of the moon.
    Well, no, because the camera had to be angled upwards to get the Earth in the frame.
    The point was that they’re not shown standing on the moon. In that series of photos there are others taken further back that show astronauts standing on the moon and there’s plenty of room in the foreground to accommodate an angling of the camera upward to get the Earth in the shot but they strangely don’t. As it stands, there’s not single photo of an astronaut actually standing on the moon with the Earth in the background. Very strange.

    Yeah, but even if your calcs are correct, that’s still only 2 frakkin’ degrees of arc! Which is small. And the astronaut would have been a much larger object, wearing white and brightly lit by direct sunlight – so it’s no wonder the Earth looks dim at the same exposure settings. And you have no idea what kind of lens was used – even a slightly wide angle lens would make the Earth appear pretty small because it is so far away.
    Maybe they should have placed the moon cameras to the same exposure settings as the one they used on the Command Module to capture the magnificent photos of the Earth big and bright while in orbit. Oh, I forgot, those photos were taken by unmanned Lunar Orbiters in 1966 and 1967 foisted to support the hoax that actually men traveled to the moon.

    Defying belief, those are the only two photos of astronauts allegedly on the moon with Earth in the background.
    Well, either defying belief or:
    (2) Illustrating how hard a shot it was to compose, owing to the high angle of the Earth in the lunar sky; or
    (3) Illustrating that they saved most of the film for shots of the moon (they had to carry all the film with them, and weight was at a premium).
    To illustrate the third option with an example, let’s say you travel to Paris. Are you gonna take photos of the Eiffel Tower, or are you gonna take photos of the sky?

    re(2)So the Earth is absurdly high in the sky for all six landings. Either step back, bend or squat down, position your subject up on the incline of terrain, take the picture while the subject is on the LM ladder, etc. It’s not difficult; it’s absurd.
    re(3)Yes, those camera negatives are mighty heavy. Can’t afford to carry one with spectacular never before seen vantage points. Had a photo never before been taken of the Eiffel Tower or the moon, I‘d have gotten a photo of both with me in the foreground. It would be absurd not to.

    If you were one of the previous ten astronauts on the moon, would you have traveled that long dangerous way and not had your photo taken with the Earth in the background?
    Well, given that the Earth was really high in the sky, yeah, I would have travelled all that way and coped with not having the Earth in the background of a photo.
    I think there was always only one man on the LM ladder at a time. It would have been a convenient time to get the shot. Earth high in the sky is a very weak excuse and having high in the sky for all six landings is more evidence of absurdity and a sloppy hoax.

    There’s not a single photo of the unloading and assembly of any of the moon rovers allegedly used on the last three missions.
    Again, maybe they were saving the film for shots of the moon itself. Maybe time was at a premium too (which, BTW, it really was), and there was no time to schedule for shots of the unfolding of the lunar rover (yeah, unfolding, not assembling – do you know anything about the Apollo hardware?).
    Or, hey, here’s a thought – maybe it took both astronauts to actually unfold the lunar rover so there was no-one to take pics of it. And if they had taken photos of the unfolding of the lunar rover, of what would it convince you?

    Yea, maybe but it’s absurd along with lots of other absurd things with the hoax

    The rovers themselves represent suicidal designs for 1/6th gravity environments. With high centers of gravity, narrow wheelbases, Earth-equivalent momentum (Momentum=mv), unknown terrain and weighing only 1/6th their Earth weight, they would have tipped over in every turn.
    1/6 of their weight, but exactly the same inertia. And what makes you think their CoG was high relative to the width of the wheelbase. Were you not aware that the rovers were battery powered, and that those batteries would have given it a substantial proportion of its weight low down. The whole rover was as light as it could be made, but they didn’t have Li-ion batteries in 1971!
    Hey, here’s a thought, maybe they didn’t drive it all that fast!
    Go on, go and look up the actual speeds at which the lunar rover was driven. If memory serves, it was no more than about 20 mph (and may not even have been 20 mph).

    The batteries were installed in the rear of the rover above the frame. They would have aggravated the high center of gravity. With Earth equivalent momentum, that thing would have tipped over at even 5mph. Again, it’s absurd. If you look at the recent NASA designs for a moon rover, you’ll notice them desperately trying to correct the obvious design absurdities.

    I’ve done a lot of searching and have even been in contact with the alleged manufacturers of the cooling systems, United Technologies’ Hamilton Sunstrand and have received the standard basic propaganda baloney about how they work but have been unable to acquire any specifications or procedures for their operation.
    Hmmm, let’s see. These things were originally designed, what about 45 – 50 years ago, right?
    So what makes you expect that the company kept the specs, or that anyone who worked on it is still there? Your expectation is unreasonable.
    As for the modern counterparts, what makes you think you have any legitimate expectation that an engineering company will share detailed technical information with some random member of the public?

    The expectation is very reasonable. Those suits and their designs are historical artifacts whose design and manufacture were paid for by American taxpayers. As the first of their kind, it’s absurd to believe that no record of their design, operational procedure or specifications would be kept. Why are you so dedicated to the obvious perpetuation of a hoax? It was a crime. The company should be able to provide the much needed accountability of the suits actual operation without compromising patent protection. If they can demonstrate them in orbit, surely they can demonstrate them on Earth in a vacuum chamber. But they won‘t because they‘re props in a hoax.

    I’ve worked on several different vacuum systems and I’ve searched industrial suppliers high and low in search for a flexible glove attachment for commercial vacuum chambers and have yet to find one. They would come in very handy especially during maintenance to be able to manipulate things inside the chamber using your hand while the chamber was under vacuum.
    Maybe so, but in your case the pressure difference will be about 15 psi (1 bar), whereas the EVA suits of the Apollo astronaust were at 4 – 5 psi (about 0.33 bar) so the pressure difference was far smaller. Even so, the suits inflated and were thus hard to move. All of the Apollo astronauts who visited the lunar surface commented on how tired their hands got just holding stuff, because of having to work against the pressure of the suit.
    In post #47, I outline a relatively simple experiment to test a spacesuit or glove material membrane in the 5psi differential pressure with near 0 psi on one side of the membrane and 5 psi on the other. I think the crux of my argument is that 5psid between 15 and 10psi isn’t the same as 5psid between 5psi and 0 psi. I contend that the Kinetic Particle Theory of Pressure explains why the force factor becomes huge when operations near 0 psi are conducted. Ivan’s posting of a link to a glove box manufacturer that warns against use to ultrahigh vacuum(<1e-9torr) confirms my argument. TRUTH fears no trial. But nobody wants to conduct this experiment because the consequences of its revelation mean lost moon, lost ISS, lost Hubble, lost NASA and possibly lost USA under the foreign control of Israeli Zionists. It would mean certain war against another nuclear power with a similar professed MAD nuclear strategy called SAMSON.

    Astronauts have allegedly been using them since the 60’s with Ed White’s alleged Gemini spacewalk and still none are available for sale. Strange.
    Because, numpty, they won’t work on Earth. If you really worked with vacuum systems, and had a genuine interest in the Apollo missions, you would know this already.
    A simple high vacuum chamber experiment would prove they don’t work in space either. Do you have access to a high vacuum chamber? The high vacuum system on a helium leak checker would work.

    I don’t know the link but you can find it; I know it’s on YouTube somewhere. Look for the Apollo 11 post-mission press conference and wonder yourself why Armstrong, Aldrin and Collins act psychotic. One reporter near the end of the conference asks them “what does going to the moon mean?” The response to the question is truly bizarre.
    Assuming that was actually the question, perhaps it is the question that’s bizarre. Try to imagine yourself striving to achieve something (let’s say, being the first to reach the South Pole), working for years on nothing else, with that as your sole focus. Then, when you achieve it, someone comes along and asks you what it means. How can you hope to answer that?
    I would have quickly and instantly praised my crew, NASA, President JFK for setting the challenge, the American People for funding the project and I would have reminded everyone of JFK’s words for the reason we were going to the moon and how we had accomplished those goals. I would have reminded everyone that forevermore Americans would enjoy the pride of knowing we were first and that it could never be taken away from us. I would have spoken as the baddest badass that ever returned from the moon and would have had difficulty resisting the temptation to drop my trousers to show off the biggest set of testicles in human history. Instead, Armstrong, sat speechless before mumbling an attempt to get one of the other astronauts to answer the question.

    Besides, if you read about the Apollo missions, you will learn that all 21 of the Apollo astronauts who visited the moon were severely deprived of sleep when they got home. Sleeping in freefall is difficult, and can you imagine the excitement of the astronauts who actually landed on the moon? Don’t you think you would be too excited to sleep properly if you were on the frakkin’ moon!?
    The Apollo 11 astronauts were in quarantine for three weeks after their return. They were well rested for the press conference. Their psychotic behavior during the press conference was the result of them being honorable men forced into the dishonor of telling lies and supporting criminal hoaxes. I still hope for a brave and redeeming confession from them on July 20, 2009.

    Numerous unmanned lunar orbiters have been sent to the moon since Apollo from the United States, former USSR, Europe, Japan, India and China and yet, not a single orbiter was equipped with a camera with sufficient resolution to take a photo of any of the six alleged Apollo landing sites at known stationary positions.
    So? They did not need to develop the camera technology to that extent in order to do what they were designed to do (i.e. science).
    If the United States were dedicated to the Scientific Method, full transparent accountability and true independent verification, we would have given them our camera. As it stands, any photos by LRO of Apollo landing site remnants will be unable to fulfill the scientific requirement of independent verification.

    Even Google manages the task photographing our homes with their GoogleEarth cameras orbiting at even higher Earth altitudes contending with the additional burden of atmospheric interference.
    OK, several things here. How big are the telescopes in low-earth orbit? Pretty big. Now, how much do they weigh? Quite a lot. What was most at a premium on the Apollo missions? Weight! What is at a premium on any mission to the moon, manned or unmanned? Weight! Why? Because the moon is 1200 time farther away than LEO. If you were developing a lunar mission, why would you load it with a telescope that is so heavy as to jeopardise the entire mission if you did not need to ?
    Because the American people deserve and demand accountability for the $trillions spent but stolen. A main pillar of the Scientific Method is independent verification.
    There’s another thing here – a typical house is at least 4 times the size of the LEM descent stage, so being able to photograph houses from LEO is not such a big deal.
    You can see things much smaller than a house. The resolution is 1meter.
    It’s absurd; you know we and the Japanese would have sent cameras that got the job done.
    Why?
    To be the first to provide Scientific Independent Verification. To call attention to Japan’s preeminent leadership in camera technology. To powerfully advertise Japan’s increasing accomplishments in space exploration.

    Despite claims by NASA that satellites orbiting the smaller diameter moon at lower altitudes lack the camera resolution to photograph Apollo remnants, they recently released a photo allegedly taken by the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter of the Mars Phoenix Lander in motion as it descended beneath its parachute to the Martian surface.
    MRO has the best camera that has ever been launched beyond Earth orbit (not counting the LRO, which I think uses the same technology). Certainly, its resolution is way better than anything that is in orbit around the moon (at least, it will be until LRO gets into lunar orbit).
    Allegedly.

    Although they can’t acquire a photograph of a stationary object on the moon at an exactly known location despite unlimited opportunities, they claim they have acquired a photograph of a moving object on Mars in a previously unknown location on the first try. Very strange inconsistency.
    Not strange at all if you think about it for a bit.
    I’ve thought about it very much for a very long time and it’s still a very strange inconsistency.

    If you carefully observe the IMAX video “Space Station” narrated by Tom Cruise, you might notice that it consists of a long compilation of short carefully edited sequences none of which is longer than could be filmed aboard a Vomit Comet.
    Proving what? That it could have been filmed on a plane? So?
    Do you have any evidence that it was filmed on a plane? No, I didn’t think so.

    Nor is there proof it was filmed aboard ISS although they had the opportunity to provide such proof and still do but won’t because it’s a hoax.

    You might notice that recent coverage of ISS activities have been very strange also. $Billions in improvements have allegedly been made but we’re never invited aboard for a tour. Zionist tourists visit but no video or photographs are shared. ISS allegedly makes one orbit every ninety minutes for a sunrise or sunset every forty-five minutes and I’ve yet to see any video of one or the other. No photographs exist of any of the ISS in silhouette against a brilliant star-filled Universe on the dark side of Earth. They could easily take these photos from an approaching space shuttle or the fully extended robot arm on ISS.
    Well, maybe they’re all busy, doing their jobs. When the Shuttle is close enough to the ISS that the ISS appears large, it’s on its final docking approach, which is the most dangerous part of the mission bar take-off and re-entry. Not the best time for sightseeing.
    Plus, I’d imagine that they always schedule these approaches so that they occur in daylight, so the pilots can see what they’re doing.

    Or more likely, it’s a hoax and ten years of doing the hoax they haven’t come up with a way to fake such complicated video especially when the slaves so desperately defend their slavery based on the limited and sloppy video they’ve already been fed.

    It seems to me from your comment that you have (a) not taken the trouble to understand the objections you raise; (b) not taken the time to think about the objections you raise (I mean, seriously, when complaining about not having shots of the astronauts and Earth in the same frame, did it never occur to you to wonder how high the Earth would be in the sky?); (c) failed to present any evidence to support your speculation as being anything better than speculation; (d) ignored any evidence that does not fit your scenario (e.g. the soviet tracking data that, if you are correct, could have blown the whole thing wide open and been a massive PR coup for the USSR); and (e) failed to define any motivation for this conspiracy.
    Your arguments are flimsy at best, and delusional at worst.

    a. I understand.

    b. I’ve taken the time. Earth high in the sky is not a very difficult obstacle to surmount. But as a hoax, the fewer shots of Earth the better. It adds significant difficulty.

    c. I’ve provided a preponderance of absurdities.

    d. I have no way of knowing Soviet capabilities. The Bolshevik revolution was a Jewish thing and I’m uncertain to the magnitude of collaboraton between American Zionist controllers and Soviet Zionist controllers. I suspect the House of Rothschild controls everything.

    e. In earlier posts, I’ve explained in great detail the history of the Zionist movement and it’s motivation for theft of American resources.

    In Mark Ames’ very disturbing book, “Going Postal”, he provides a short history of slave rebellions and explains their infrequency even today in our modern mutated state of slavery as caused by our unfortunate behavioral tendency to be slaves since our ancestors for thousands, tens of thousands and possibly hundreds of thousands of years were mostly slaves or serfs. We’ve only very recently even begun to understand the concepts of liberty and human rights. Please consider if you’re a slave defending your slavery.

  263. DrFlimmer

    @ Neil:

    Even if I would have a vaccum chamber I wouldn’t be able to conduct the experiment, since I lack a space-suite.
    But there has been a remark: What about all the lines/tubes from the chamber to the pump? They are most likely not made of steel. They are thin and flexible. And they do not implode – at least I haven’t seen such a thing and I have conducted an experiment where I needed a vaccum chamber. The air was sucked out with a special material that acts like a sponge for air if you cool it with liquid nitrogen. There were some valves and flexible tubes and nothing imploded. I wonder why?

  264. Neil

    @Flimmer
    I’ve been in contact with the winner of the $200,000 NASA Glove Challenge and I could ask him for some material to test if I got confirmation of the availablity of a high vacuum pump.

    High vacuum systems are usually divided into two systems. There’s the roughing pump that pumps the chamber down to about 1e-2torr and then a HIVAC valve opens that allows the high vacuum pump to pump the chamber the remainder of the way down to 1e-7torr.

    The high vacuum pumps are either turbo-molecular pumps, cryogenic pumps or diffusion pumps. The roughing pumps are usually mechanical screw pumps. In all the systems I’ve used, the high vacuum pump is bolted directly to the HIVAC valve that’s bolted directly to the vacuum chamber. Most systems use flexible stainless steel pipe to the roughing pump but I have seen very thick fiber reinforced plastic tubing sometimes used.

    If we used a roughing pump for the experiment we would have 5psi on the outside of the membrane and 1e-2torr on the inside that converts to 2e-4psi or 2 ten-thousandths of a psi. According to the Kinetic Particle Theory of Pressure there would be a 5 billion to 20,000 ratio which would give a force factor of 250,000. I’m not sure but I think a chamber pumped down to roughing pump vacuum would be sufficient to burst the membrane.

  265. Charlie Young

    …and Neil. Just going back over this thread and looking at yout Holocaust denial. You mentioned that if we had lost WWII, there probably would have been accusations of US murdering Japanese internees. The one glaring problem I see here is that there were PILES of dead humans and many more sick and near death in the liberated camps. I don’t think we found those conditions in our Japanese interment facilities after the war. Maybe there were and the Zionists found a way to cover all of it up (roll eyes).

    It’s hard to say what conditions in the interment facilities would have been had the war gone to German and Japanese forces. The captives would have probably been neglected since the self preservation of the captors would have been the overriding drive. I still doubt we’d see the death and disease we did in Europe. Neglect was obviously going on, but the degree of suffering and death was huge.

    The US has admitted it was wrong in what was then considered a necessary, though racist, evil to perpetuate US security. Many good people had their posessions and futures stolen, but not their lives.

  266. Mark Hansen

    Neil, these are two really amusing statements; (taken from posts 166 & 263)

    …Provided $millions and some background video of Earth from an orbiting satellite, I could duplicate any and all NASA video allegedly from ISS or Hubble that looked like documentation of $trillions in allocations…

    …Or more likely, it’s a hoax and ten years of doing the hoax they haven’t come up with a way to fake such complicated video especially when the slaves so desperately defend their slavery based on the limited and sloppy video they’ve already been fed…

    NASA, with it’s millions (or is it gazillions?) of dollars are totally inept at making a fake video, but the mighty Neil would be able to do it, no problem. We have a frustrated Steven Spielberg or George Lucas here, I think.

  267. Best solution: Ignore Neil !!

  268. Davidlpf

    Neil’s post are lake car wrecks, there messy, no good comes out of them and you just have to look.

  269. Neil

    @Charlie Young–
    It was a reminder that typhus from the excrement of a louse was an extremely lethal component of the number of dead found in Nazi concentration camps. Proven ineffective as an agent of mass murder, Zyklon B was also far inferior to DDT as an agent against lice.

    I also wanted to remind folks that the propagandists on the side of the victors write the history. It doesn’t matter what condition the Japanese were found in had we lost the war, the victors can write the history to suit them any way they want.

    We could go into other proven propaganda lies about the alleged holocaust regarding lampshades, shrunken heads, human hair-stuffed mattresses, Jew soap and Jew soup but it would just complicate the already very complicated discussion we’re in.

  270. T.E.L.

    Neil said:

    “If you carefully observe the IMAX video “Space Station” narrated by Tom Cruise, you might notice that it consists of a long compilation of short carefully edited sequences none of which is longer than could be filmed aboard a Vomit Comet.”

    Too bad for you that Space Station (narrated by TOM CRUISE!!!!!!) isn’t the world’s one and only source of zero-g video. There are plenty of other sources of clips, including from the ISS, STS orbiter, Skylab, Mir, Salyut, Apollo, which are much longer continuously than an aircraft can sustain. It’s dishonest of you to cherry-pick your examples. How does it feel to be so dishonest?

  271. Davidlpf

    Tom Cruise is kind of out there, being a member of scientology.

  272. Charlie Young

    Well, Neil, then why didn’t the captors try to improve the situation for the detainees if the well being of the people was a number one concern. Allowing the deplorable conditions to persist only reinforces the apparent contempt the captors had for the prisoners. Our POWs wern’t treated this poorly. Obviously, the Germans held our soldiers in higher regard than the concentration camp occupants. They wouldn’t have let these people suffer so much if they didn’t already want them dead.

    Sorry to all others for this hijack, but I want to see what Neil comes up with for excuses. I’m done with this line of questions. I just can’t tolerate taking reality and twisting it to fit your narrow world view. Yes, Neil, it is narrow since you are in the minority here.

    BTW, I think Neil Armstrong would take offense to your continued mocking of one of the greatest accomplishments in human history.

  273. Pat Montana

    Neil said: “All six moon landings were conveniently positioned at a time and place where the Earth would be high in the sky.”

    Well, this is the closest you’ve come to being right. The equatorial landing sites were chosen because they were the safest and least difficult places to land. Since nobody had ever actually landed on the moon they felt it prudent to chose the least difficult landing sites possible. By the time 17 rolled around, the combination of science becoming a major factor in the missions (hence the inclusion of Harrison Schmidt, the only true scientist among the Apollo crews) and the knowledge of the program being cut prompted the decision for a landing site much farther from the lunar equator than the rest.

    So I guess in a way you’re right, they were the most “convenient” landing sites from a safety and difficulty perspective.

    Neil also said: “Fighting for attention and funding, NASA surely would have timed or positioned the landings so our big, beautiful, blue Earth home was nearer the horizon to make for more spectacular video and photos.”

    Losing a crew to a lunar crash landing would hardly have promoted the continued funding of the program nor created any sort of positive attention. Only an idiot would create additional risk in an already hazardous mission to gain a relatively minor amount of additional media attention. The public was already riveted and both NASA and congress were tickled pink to have made JFKs deadline.

    Besides…nobody was there to take “Glamour Shots” or turn it into a fashion shoot. The majority of the photography was dedicated to scientific or future mission planning purposes. If they turned out to be pretty as well…so much the better, but that was not their primary purpose.

    Neil also said: “Either step back, bend or squat down, position your subject up on the incline of terrain, take the picture while the subject is on the LM ladder, etc. It’s not difficult; it’s absurd.”

    1) Step back?? Go outside at noon and see how many steps it takes you to bring the sun to a lower position in the sky. It can’t be done!!! It’s simple angular geometry. The astronaut would have to walk half way to the lunar pole to make any significant change in the apparent position of the Earth, and by then of course a) he’d be dead from lack of oxygen b) the other astronaut would be out of friggin’ camera range! Think before you speak!

    2) Bend or squat down? It’s been made eminently clear by several people on this thread that while they did function as advertised, the suits were very difficult to work in especially when it involved extreme bending. The Apollo 11 astronauts were warned to take extreme care not to fall over due to the worry that they may not be able to get back up due to the stiffness of the suits. Again, this wasn’t a fashion shoot. They were not going to waste precious effort for a shot that was not considered a prime objective.

    3) As for incline of terrain, the sites were chosen (especially the early ones) for their lack of drastic terrain changes. It’s much easier to land on a relatively flat surface than a bunch of hills and valleys. While there is some variation to the terrain, it was not enough to accomplish what you suggest. Again, the Earth was at or close to high noon.

    4) Several pictures were taken of the second astronaut on the LEM ladder. Simple logic says the Earth was intentionally left out of frame so it would not wash out the exposure. Again, these picture were primarily for future mission planning/equipment evaluation purposes and not a fashion shoot. The goal was to evaluate the exit from the LEM from an equipment stand point and see if changes/improvements were needed.

    I don’t really wish to discuss your racist views but…the history of the Soviet Union is one that is decidedly unfriendly to Jews (or any religion for that matter). The only religion allowed in the good ‘ol USSR was communism. I seriously doubt they would be doing cartwheels to help a Zionist conspiracy, especially one that made them look like the losers of the biggest propaganda race in history. Actually you probably would have fit right in with ‘ol Joey Stalin…it’s a shame you were a few decades too late!

  274. Neil

    @Charlie Young–
    As the lowest priority on the losing side of the war, Nazi concentration camp inmates didn’t fare well. It’s tragic, regretable, criminal and contemptible but it wasn’t a holocaust. It was typhus and it wasn’t anywhere near six-million. It you absolutely need a holocaust, you should study the bombings of Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Read almost any book on the incredible battles of the Eastern Front and it will go far to place the situation in perspective.

    You should Google “Eisenhower’s Death Camps” to understand that Americans weren’t immune to massivley mistreating the powerless.

    @Pat–
    Argue for your delusions and they’re yours. It’s doubtful that the position of the Earth in the moon sky would jeopardize anyone’s safety unless its magnificence seen near the moon’s horizon so distracted the astronauts that it caused them to lose focus.

    Marx, Lenin, and Engels were Jews. Some argue that Stalin’s mother was a Jew. Rothschild that financed the Bolshevik revolution and injection of Lenin into St. Petersburg aboard a sealed train most certainly was a Jew and a Zionist. Most of the Bolsheviks and Mensheviks were Jews. Even up to the fall of the Soviet Union, most KGB were jewish. Today’s Russian oligarchs are all jewish zionists.

    Only Zionists and Nazis have ever consistently considered Jews to be a separate race.

  275. Pat Montana

    Neil said: “It’s doubtful that the position of the Earth in the moon sky would jeopardize anyone’s safety unless its magnificence seen near the moon’s horizon so distracted the astronauts that it caused them to lose focus.”

    The only mention I made of safety concerns was with regards to the actual landing itself. The combination of orbital geometries involved and the relatively even terrain dictated the choice of landing sites. The choice of those sites (granted that they were highly influenced by safety issues) dictated the position of the Earth in the lunar sky.

    Go outside at noon and try to take a picture of someone with the ground and the sun in the frame. Can it be done…yes…is it simple and quick…not really. Even if your numbers are correct regarding the relative size of Earth as seen from the moon (and I’m not sure I agree with them), it was still almost straight overhead. It simply became impractical to frame the photo you suggest in stiff, bulky suits. Especially when under considerable time constraints to accomplish the primary/secondary mission and scientific objectives. It’s not a big conspiracy, they simply had to pick and choose what got done. There were a lot of mission planners and scientist who didn’t get some or any of the things they wanted done on the list. There were just to many things for the available time and some had to be cut. It’s called prioritizing…it’s what rational people do.

  276. T.E.L.

    Pat Montanna,

    Earth’s diameter is about 3.7 times that of the Moon. Earth then will be about 3.7 times larger in the lunar sky than the Moon is from Earth. The Moon subtends approximately 1/2 degree from Earth, so Earth from the Moon will subtend about 1.85 degrees. Neil’s factor of four is roughly correct; his comment about the extra angular area occupied by Earth is also true, but isn’t important. His comment about Earth’s extra brightness may or may not be true (I don’t happen to recall offhand the albedos of Earth & the Moon), but it also isn’t important to his point about photographic compositions. I’ll even say that Earth isn’t enough larger than the Moon to be of any relevance to this issue. From the Moon an extended thumb can still blot out the Earth from view.

  277. Davidlpf

    I think we should nuke Palestine/ Isreal down to a pile of radioactive slag, first remove all the people first. Then there would be no Zionism, disperse then throughout the world and let it be that. No, I do not want to nuke it.

    Are there Jewish people who are bankers, of course there are, but that is due stupidity of medievil christians. Have there been mean and cruel Jews, of course there have, but there have been mean and cruel everything else. Has there or is there an evil overgroup ruling the world, well no of course not.

  278. Pat Montana

    T.E.L.

    That’s cool. As you said, the size of the Earth as seen from the moon is irrelevant. The position of Earth in the lunar sky is the relevant fact. My point (as Nigel said earlier) was that it was simply not practical nor a priority to frame a photo as Neil suggests.

    Unfortunately Neil feels a large, complicated conspiracy involving shadow governments, bribery, and high-tech photo/video tomfoolery is a preferable explanation to simple science and common sense. But…he does entertain!

  279. Neil

    @David–

    Pretend 2% of the American population were dwarves.
    And all the banks were owned or controlled by dwarves.
    And almost all the members of Obama’s cabinet were dwarves.
    And almost all the top military officers were dwarves.
    And almost all the television networks were owned or controlled by dwarves.
    And almost all the movie studios were owned or controlled by dwarves.
    And almost all the newspapers and magazines were owned or controlled by dwarves.
    And almost all of the major book and music publishing companies were owned or controlled by dwarves.
    And almost all the universities were controlled by dwarves.
    And almost all of the major pharmaceutical companies were owned or controlled by dwarves.
    And a huge percentage of the financial swindlers and other flamboyant criminals were dwarves.
    And five dancing dwarves were arrested and later released after filming and cheering the collapse of the WTC buildings on 9/11.
    And the owner of WTC Building Seven who said it was brought down by controlled demolition was a dwarf.
    And a first responder to the Pentagon that lied saying he’d found dead bodies, charred uniforms and missing plane parts was a dwarf who was later awarded the no-bid contract to repair the Pentagon.
    And the Ambassador to Yemen who obstructed the investigation of the USS Cole was a dwarf.
    And the Executive Director of the sham 9/11 Commission was a dwarf.
    And to win political office you had to gain the support of the dwarves.
    And an ADPAC, American Dwarves Public Affairs Committee, funded and controlled the available candidates in most major elections.
    And dwarves were in control of almost all major law enforcement agencies.
    And anybody that used the word “dwarf” was labeled anti-dwarf.
    And dwarves got laws passed in many countries prohibiting the questioning or investigation of an alleged past dwarf genocide.
    And dwarves used blackmail, bribes, murder and other crime including terrorism to force the formation of a Dwarf Nation.
    And there was a powerful Dwarf Defense League.
    And dwarves mixed and hid dwarf politics in with dwarf religion to confuse any attack on the one as an attack on the other.
    And dwarves ritualized the removal of foreskin from their penis’s and got dwarf doctors to do the same to non-dwarves.

    At what point would you finally ask, “What’s up with all the dwarves?”

  280. T.E.L.

    Pat Montana Said:

    “But…he does entertain!”

    He certainly does. :)

  281. Pat Montana

    Again Neil…you kinda got it right…it’s all PRETEND!!!!

    Do you really expect any of us to believe with all these “dwarves”, there’s never a single disagreement or clash of power? That they agree 100% on the plan to “master the universe”? The mob has had quite a number of guys who “turned rat” despite the threat of a very, very unpleasant death after a long dose of even more unpleasant torture. There is absolutely no way the number of “dwarves” you list could keep such an intricate conspiracy secret for at least 40 years. Have you ever heard the phrase “no honor among theives.”? Or how about “two people can keep a secret…as long a one of them is dead.”? There’s a lot more truth in those two phrases than the whole mess you just wrote. Oops…didn’t mean to steal you’re favorite word!

    You said “Argue for your delusions and they’re yours.” Well Neil…this one’s all yours buddy…’cause I ain’t buyin’.

  282. Brian

    Don’t forget all those dwarves that are comedians. Clearly there’s something funny going on there.

    And all those dwarves that were elected Preside-, wait, bad example.

  283. Pat Montana

    Waaaiit a minute…is this why when I go to pay bills my bank account comes up “short”!?!?! Holy crap…now it all makes sense…Keebler is going to rule the…no wait they’re elves huh?

    That does it…I’m goin’ out to get my wife a Snow White costume! It’ll work out well for me either way! LEER…LEER!

    p.s. Neil, Grumpy called…he wants his attitude back!

  284. Davidlpf

    The presidents are all part of a special non dwarf group called illimaniti and are going to destroy the world with the anti-matter from LHC.

  285. So Neil, no response to the photo showing a spacewalker out on the P3 truss of ISS? So what’s it going to be? Are you going to accept this independent (your self-proclaimed “scientific” standard), direct confirmation of spacewalking, or are you going to hypocritically dismiss it because it disagrees with your pre-conceived notions?

  286. Neil

    @NGCHunter–First off, thank you for providing those photos. I’ve visited Ralf Vandebergh’s website and have looked at many of them. It’s very interesting.

    However, I can’t endorse the photo as independent verification. I’ve researched the size of those solar arrays and NASA says they’re 58 meters long with areas of 375 sq. meters which means the width must be 6.5 meters. The blur that you contend is a man is easily half that width so the man would have to be 3.25meters tall. That’s converts to about 10.7 feet. That would be a mighty tall man.

    I don’t think so, no, I don’t accept the photo as independent verification. Sorry, but good try. The spacesuit is impossible and a simple high vacuum chamber experiment on a piece of the suit would prove it.

    By the way, Holland is full of Zionists and is Zionist-controlled.

  287. IVAN3MAN

    @ #47. Neil:

    It’s an easy enough experiment to do.
    All that’s required is a vacuum pump capable of attaining the high vacuum of 1e-7torr which is the vacuum level of the ISS orbit.
    Replace one of the chamber port openings with a two-chamber fixture with an outer bypass valve connecting both chambers on either side of a membrane made from the material used in the astronaut space gloves. Pump down the chamber with the bypass valve open. When 1e-7 torr is acquired, close the bypass and open a valve to the outer chamber to pressurize it to 5psi. This would duplicate the conditions of a spacesuit on EVA in orbit with 5psi on the inside and near 0psi(1e-7torr~2billionths of a psi)on the outside. If the membrane bursts, the suits are a hoax.

    A simple 5psi differential won’t be an accurate experiment. It has to be 5psi against 1e-7torr. The kinetic particle theory of pressure indicates that the force factor will be significantly different for a membrane separating 5psi from 0psi rather than 15psi separating 10psi.

    The video below is part 2 of a series of 5 called The Truth Behind the Moon Landing. Near the end of the video (at about the 8.00 min mark), it features the now late Ralf René (August 24, 1933 – December 10, 2008) who was a “self-taught” inventor and a vocal proponent of the Apollo moon landing hoax theory, as well as a 9/11 conspiracy theorist. In the video, Ralf René is seen demonstrating his very own home-built “space glove machine” — glove vacuum chamber — in order “to prove that the flexibility [the astronauts] showed in their suits and gloves was impossible”.

    Note that, according to Ralf, he is not able to flex his glove when the chamber is in high vacuum with the inside of the glove at 1 atmosphere pressure.

    Now, according to our guest ‘expert’ Neil, that frigging glove should burst in a vacuum! So, what’s up with that, Neil?!

    Also, bear in mind the fact that spacesuits using pure oxygen only need to be pressurized to about 32.4 kPa (4.7 psi), which is approx. 32% of atmospheric pressure at sea-level.

    Click here for the link to the YouTube channel.

  288. IVAN3MAN

    Oh, Neil, I almost forgot, here are some High Vacuum chambers:

    * NANOSPHERE — Bench-top High Vacuum Platform_[PDF]

    * High Vacuum Chamber Group_[PDF]

    :cool:

  289. Nigel Depledge

    Kevin (263 etc.) said:

    Everyone – Neil is enjoying all of this focus and debate. Let’s all just ignore him and the problem will be solved.

    But … but … he’s so easy to kick! Go on, can’t I just kick him a little bit?

  290. Nigel Depledge

    Neil (265) said:

    All six moon landings were conveniently positioned at a time and place where the Earth would be high in the sky. This in itself lends support to the missions being hoaxes. Fighting for attention and funding, NASA surely would have timed or positioned the landings so our big, beautiful, blue Earth home was nearer the horizon to make for more spectacular video and photos.

    What? Why?

    You make this huge, sweeping claim about what NASA “would” have done, but you don’t even attempt to justify it.

    Put simply, I don’t believe you because you give me no reason to.

    Why would NASA not choose locations that would give them the best chance of the mission being successful? For instance, the landing sites and times were all coordinated so that it would be just after the lunar dawn, so that (a) the regolith would not be very hot and (b) the low sun angle would make it easier to land the LEM (i.e. the pilots would be able to see the texture of the terrain). They were probably also chosen so both the VHF and UHF radio signals would have good “take-off” towards the Earth.

    There may be other reasons too, perhaps concerning the orbital mechanics (i.e. wanting the LEM to be in contact with Earth during the entire descent from the CSM, perhaps) but do you even consider the possibility? No.

    Also, with an Earth casting fifty times the reflected light on the moon as a moon casts on Earth, Earthlight alone would have been amply sufficient for the astronauts to conduct their work relieving them of the radiation and glare of a sun cast upon them.

    Earthlight on the moon may well be 50x as bright as moonlight on the Earth, but since moonlight on the Earth is not even enough to read by, that still isn’t a great deal of light. Besides, the regolith on the lunar night side would be extremely cold unless you landed just after lunar sunset.

    Why make things harder just to get the sensational shot?

    Moon in nothing but Earthlight would have been cool especially if the Earth were close to the horizon. Also, even with the Earth overhead, an astronaut would only have to position his helmet 45 degrees upward for the other astronaut to get a shot of Earth reflected in the visor. It would have been a famous photo.

    Except that, with the Earth only occupying 2 degrees of arc in the sky, and the curved shape of the visor, the Earth would appear tiny, a bit like your ability to think, seemingly. Besides, maybe they couldn’t angle their heads up 45° in their EVA suits.

    Why does the concept of this one shot obsess you so?

    I can’t tell you the technical reasons why I think it is but when I see an obvious superimposition, I can tell.

    Right, so I should just take your word for it, yah?

    Nuh-uh. Simply put, Neil, I don’t believe you and you have given me no reason to believe you.

    The point was that they’re not shown standing on the moon. In that series of photos there are others taken further back that show astronauts standing on the moon and there’s plenty of room in the foreground to accommodate an angling of the camera upward to get the Earth in the shot but they strangely don’t.

    What do you mean, plenty of room to get the Earth in the shot? If the Earth was really high in the sky, it would be hard to get both surface features (i.e. an astronaut) and the Earth in the same frame at all. Have you ever taken a photograph of anything in the sky? Have you ever tried to get a shot of something that’s more than about 60° above the horizon in the same shot as features on the ground? Without a wide-angle lens, it is hard, and I think can only be done by getting close to the foreground object.

    As it stands, there’s not single photo of an astronaut actually standing on the moon with the Earth in the background. Very strange.

    As I have already stated, it is not strange. You have yet to present one reason why I should consider it to be strange.

    Maybe they should have placed the moon cameras to the same exposure settings as the one they used on the Command Module to capture the magnificent photos of the Earth big and bright while in orbit. Oh, I forgot, those photos were taken by unmanned Lunar Orbiters in 1966 and 1967 foisted to support the hoax that actually men traveled to the moon.

    You do not address the point I raised. If the Earth is the only thing in the field of view, you set the exposure to suit that. If you take a pic of a brightly-lit, white-clad astronaut and the Earth in the same frame, the exposure is necessarily a compromise.

    re(2)So the Earth is absurdly high in the sky for all six landings. Either step back, bend or squat down, position your subject up on the incline of terrain, take the picture while the subject is on the LM ladder, etc. It’s not difficult; it’s absurd.

    It’s not absurd if taking a photo of an astronaut with the Earth in the background isn’t your top priority.

    Think about it. You’ve spent billions of dollars and you’ve got these guys risking their lives to get a really good close look at the moon. Are you gonna spend the whole time grandstanding, or are you gonna actually exploit your proximity to the lunar surface and learn some stuff about it?

    re(3)Yes, those camera negatives are mighty heavy. Can’t afford to carry one with spectacular never before seen vantage points. Had a photo never before been taken of the Eiffel Tower or the moon, I‘d have gotten a photo of both with me in the foreground. It would be absurd not to.

    Well, you’ve just undermined your own argument.

    Photos of the Earth had been taken before. For example, there was that famous “Earthrise” picture taken from (IIRC) Apollo 10 in lunar orbit.

    Besides, my point was you can take photos of the moon from your home, but you can’t take pics of the Eiffel Tower from your home. Similarly, photos of the Earth had been taken before and many have been taken since, from other vantage points.

    I see no reason for your obsession with the scarcity of Apollo photos showing astronauts in the same frame as the Earth. You have provided no argument to connect this to any alleged conspiracy (apart from the mere fact that one wouldn’t get photos of the Earth from the lunar surface unless one went there), and you seem to be raving over it as if it is the strongest piece of “evidence” for a conspiracy. If this is the best you have, give it up.

    Another aspect you seem to have missed is that the cameras were strapped to the front of the astronauts’ EVA suits. Maybe they couldn’t get the Earth in frame without some dangerous contortions.

    I think there was always only one man on the LM ladder at a time. It would have been a convenient time to get the shot. Earth high in the sky is a very weak excuse and having high in the sky for all six landings is more evidence of absurdity and a sloppy hoax.

    No, you have not demonstrated this. All you have is wild speculation and conjecture. You do not even seem to have considered that NASA may have had priorities other than getting photos of astronauts standing in front of the Earth on the lunar surface.

    [re no photos of the unfolding of the LR]

    Yea, maybe but it’s absurd along with lots of other absurd things with the hoax

    You assert it to be absurd, but you have given no reason why anyone else should consider it so. It is certainly not evidence of a conspiracy.

    The batteries were installed in the rear of the rover above the frame. They would have aggravated the high center of gravity. With Earth equivalent momentum, that thing would have tipped over at even 5mph.

    Another claim with no support.

    If you really care about this, how about you go and do the maths? There are plenty of mechanics text books that have the details on how to calculate this kind of thing. All you need to do is work out the exact centre of gravity of the LR, then calculate its moment of inertia at various cornering speeds. Not trivial, certainly, but if you really care about this aspect of the situation, you should find out if your assertion holds water, so you can actually demonstrate it rather than merely whine.

    Again, it’s absurd.

    Again, you do not even try to show this. I will not take your word for it. If you wish to convince me, give me a reason to believe this claim.

    If you look at the recent NASA designs for a moon rover, you’ll notice them desperately trying to correct the obvious design absurdities.

    Or maybe they’re trying to make it lighter because they don’t have a Saturn V rocket to launch it with. Or because they want it to be more robust (at least one of the LRs had to be patched together with duct tape on the moon). Or maybe they want the option of having supplies on the lunar surface for more than 3 days. Or maybe they don’t have the original blueprints.

    Or there could be any number of technical reasons why it’s different.

    The expectation is very reasonable. Those suits and their designs are historical artifacts whose design and manufacture were paid for by American taxpayers.

    Yeah, American taxpayers who would rather watch the Superbowl than another moon shot. Remember that Nixon’s cutting of the funding for Apollo was mostly a popular move. After Apollo 11 there was dramatically less interest in manned lunar exploration. Were those taxpayers prepared to pay for the space to store all of the paperwork associated with the designs? No, they were not.

    As the first of their kind, it’s absurd to believe that no record of their design, operational procedure or specifications would be kept.

    Some records have been kept. Why should the detailed technical specs be among them?

    Why are you so dedicated to the obvious perpetuation of a hoax?

    I’m not. I am convinced that 12 men have walked on the moon.

    Why? Many reasons, too numerous to list.

    Among them, though, is the fact that I have never seen or heard even one convincing argument that it was a conspiracy. No-one has successfully answered the question “why would they lie?”.

    It was a crime. The company should be able to provide the much needed accountability of the suits actual operation without compromising patent protection. If they can demonstrate them in orbit, surely they can demonstrate them on Earth in a vacuum chamber. But they won‘t because they‘re props in a hoax.

    No, they won’t because there is no reason for them to do so.

    You have yet to present even one convincing argument that there was any kind of hoax and, unless I am very much mistaken, the American legal system does include the assumption of innocence until guilt is proven. If you believe a crime was perpetrated, then come up with some evidence. If you cannot, you are libelling the corporations and individuals involved.

    In post #47, I outline a relatively simple experiment to test a spacesuit or glove material membrane in the 5psi differential pressure with near 0 psi on one side of the membrane and 5 psi on the other. I think the crux of my argument is that 5psid between 15 and 10psi isn’t the same as 5psid between 5psi and 0 psi.

    How does the glove tell the difference?

    I contend that the Kinetic Particle Theory of Pressure explains why the force factor becomes huge when operations near 0 psi are conducted.

    Well, you can contend this all you like, but you’re wrong.

    Ivan’s posting of a link to a glove box manufacturer that warns against use to ultrahigh vacuum(<1e-9torr) confirms my argument.

    Er, no. Probably they only tested it in limited vacuum conditions and therefore cannot guarantee its performance at higher vacuum.

    TRUTH fears no trial.

    No, it does not. However, since you are ignoring all of the evidence that shows we did send men to the moon, what do you know of truth?

    But nobody wants to conduct this experiment because the consequences of its revelation mean lost moon, lost ISS, lost Hubble, lost NASA and possibly lost USA under the foreign control of Israeli Zionists.

    No, no-one can be bothered to do the trial because you won’t believe the result. Plus, we would all laugh and point at anyone who did merely to pander to your fantastical delusions.

    It would mean certain war against another nuclear power with a similar professed MAD nuclear strategy called SAMSON.

    OK, you really are starting to sound unhinged now. Perhaps you should go back on the meds, yeah?

    A simple high vacuum chamber experiment would prove they don’t work in space either. Do you have access to a high vacuum chamber? The high vacuum system on a helium leak checker would work.

    Feel free to go ahead and design and fund your experiment. Let us know when you publish the result.

    I would have quickly and instantly praised my crew, NASA, President JFK for setting the challenge, the American People for funding the project and I would have reminded everyone of JFK’s words for the reason we were going to the moon and how we had accomplished those goals. I would have reminded everyone that forevermore Americans would enjoy the pride of knowing we were first and that it could never be taken away from us. I would have spoken as the baddest badass that ever returned from the moon and would have had difficulty resisting the temptation to drop my trousers to show off the biggest set of testicles in human history. Instead, Armstrong, sat speechless before mumbling an attempt to get one of the other astronauts to answer the question.

    OK, so you have understood why JFK advocated going to the moon, but have you even tried to understand what it meant for the guys who went? Those 21 guys did something so huge that it has taken them decades to be able to express it.

    The Apollo 11 astronauts were in quarantine for three weeks after their return. They were well rested for the press conference. Their psychotic behavior during the press conference was the result of them being honorable men forced into the dishonor of telling lies and supporting criminal hoaxes. I still hope for a brave and redeeming confession from them on July 20, 2009.

    OK, I forgot about the quarantine period, but you are still leaping to conclusions based on insufficient evidence. Armstrong’s failure to answer that question could have had any of several causes. The point is that you are considering only one.

    If the United States were dedicated to the Scientific Method, full transparent accountability and true independent verification, we would have given them our camera. As it stands, any photos by LRO of Apollo landing site remnants will be unable to fulfill the scientific requirement of independent verification.

    You didn’t answer my question. You claimed that we have not yet sent a camera to the moon that can image the Apollo hardware. My question was: So?

    Because the American people deserve and demand accountability for the $trillions spent but stolen. A main pillar of the Scientific Method is independent verification.

    And independent verification has indeed occurred. You merely close your eyes to it. Or do you think that all European nations and the Soviet Union were in on the hoax too?

    You can see things much smaller than a house.

    Hey, you were the one going on about houses.

    The resolution is 1meter.

    You have failed to address my core point, though. That the telescopes used for Google Earth are simply not comparable to the telescopes that have been sent to lunar orbit (until LRO gets there).

    To be the first to provide Scientific Independent Verification. To call attention to Japan’s preeminent leadership in camera technology. To powerfully advertise Japan’s increasing accomplishments in space exploration.

    But why would they bother to confirm something that was confirmed 40 years ago? That’s not science, that’s obsession.

    [In response to my pointing out that MRO has the best camera yet launched, not counting LRO]

    Allegedly.

    That’s not an argument, that’s mere contradiction.

    MRO is a fact. The scientists and engineers involved have achieved something amazing, and all you can do is snipe. Similarly, the Apollo programme is a fact. That men have walked on the moon is a fact. You still have not presented any argument to make a rational person doubt this.

    I’ve thought about it very much for a very long time and it’s still a very strange inconsistency.

    You use the word “thought” in a way that is unfamiliar to me.

    Seriously, dude, think about the advances in technology. Just for a short while, consider a world in which the Apollo programme realy did happen, and people really did walk on the moon, and we really do have high-resolution cameras orbiting Mars.

    The guys who did all this have nothing to prove to you.

    Nor is there proof it was filmed aboard ISS although they had the opportunity to provide such proof and still do but won’t because it’s a hoax.

    Innocent until proven guilty. You are making the charge, the burden of proof is yours. And so far, you are sadly lacking.

    Or more likely, it’s a hoax and ten years of doing the hoax they haven’t come up with a way to fake such complicated video especially when the slaves so desperately defend their slavery based on the limited and sloppy video they’ve already been fed.

    Again, you have yet to provide one shred of evidence to back up your claims. You seem unable to grasp that merely asserting something does not make it true.

    Your failure to understand how and why the space programme does what it does is not evidence of anything.

    a. I understand.

    No, seriously, you obviously don’t.

    b. I’ve taken the time. Earth high in the sky is not a very difficult obstacle to surmount. But as a hoax, the fewer shots of Earth the better. It adds significant difficulty.

    I simply don’t buy that. If they spent all that money on faking going to the moon, it would have been more convincing than the real thing. However, if you have practical constraints (like the Earth being at a high angle in the sky and the camera being strapped to the front of the EVA suit) and are focussed on learning about the moon (and not showboating), you would not expect to get any good shots of an astronaut and the Earth in the same frame.

    c. I’ve provided a preponderance of absurdities.

    This word you keep using, I do not think it means what you think it means.

    Seriously, you have claimed many things to be absurd, but that does not make them so. You have yet to demonstrate that even one of your claimed absurdities is genuinely absurd. Most of them, you have not even tried to demonstrate.

    d. I have no way of knowing Soviet capabilities.

    This is a cop-out. Of course you have ways of knowing, if you can be bothered to find out. The fact that you avoid this point tells me that you are unable to address it. But that does not surprise me.

    The Bolshevik revolution was a Jewish thing and I’m uncertain to the magnitude of collaboraton between American Zionist controllers and Soviet Zionist controllers. I suspect the House of Rothschild controls everything.

    This is insane speculation. Seriously, you need a better therapist.

    e. In earlier posts, I’ve explained in great detail the history of the Zionist movement and it’s motivation for theft of American resources.

    All of which is speculation. Or delusion.

    In Mark Ames’ very disturbing book, “Going Postal”, he provides a short history of slave rebellions and explains their infrequency even today in our modern mutated state of slavery as caused by our unfortunate behavioral tendency to be slaves since our ancestors for thousands, tens of thousands and possibly hundreds of thousands of years were mostly slaves or serfs. We’ve only very recently even begun to understand the concepts of liberty and human rights. Please consider if you’re a slave defending your slavery.

    OK, I will.

    Do I have freedom of speech? Yes.
    Do I have the freedom to travel? Yes.
    Do I have the freedom to read whatever I choose? Yes.
    Do I have the freedom to quit my job and go and do something else? Yes.
    Do I have the right to vote? Yes.
    Do I have the right to express myself to my elected representative? Yes.
    Do I have the right to ecxpress myself to my head of state? Yes.

    OK, not really getting any slavery vibe here.

    OTOH, am I able to draw conclusions from data? Yes.

    Did people go to the moon back in ’69 – ’72? Yes. The information to arrive at this conclusion is all in the public domain.

    Additionally, all of the accusations from the hoax believers are flimsy at best or inane at worst. The “evidence” for a conspiracy is pretty easy to refute, so the HBs fall back on repeated layers of conspiracy. The alleged motivation for the conspiracy is speculation. The putative conspiracy would have needed to fool the whole world, including governments with access to radar that could and did track the Apollo vehicles. It would have needed to fool or include all of the countries and personnel involved in the deep space network (including Australians, who are notorious for their lack of respect for authority). It would have needed either to include or to fool all of the engineers who designed and built the Apollo hardware (and if they were fooled into believing they were designing stuff to go to the moon, then they must actually have designed stuff that could go to the moon, so why not use it to go to the moon?). It would have needed to fool all of the scientists who followed the lunar exploration programme and who studied pieces of the moon rock that Apollo brought back. The concept of a conspiracy of this magnitude is breathtakingly inane. It would have required more resource than did actually going to the moon.

    In short, the case for a conspiracy falls a long way short of being convincing in any aspect whatever.

  291. Neil

    @Ivan–
    You perplex me. I’m not sure which side of this discussion you’re on. You apparently provide a video that demonstrates the nondexterity of a glove in vacuum supporting the hoax theory but you then complain that the glove didn’t burst.

    I can’t watch the video because I’ve never been able to successfully download the Adobe Flash Player but I suspect he’s operating the glove in low vacuum or medium vacuum, not high vacuum. Does he say what the pressure is inside the chamber?

    The biggest surprise of this discussion is that nobody has challenged me on the crux of my argument that a membrane operating between a 5 psi differential pressure between 15 and 10psi behaves differently than a membrane operating between a 5psi differential between 5psi and 0psi. Do you understand my explanation on why I think that?

    Your pointing out that the suits are pressurized to only 4.7psi is the whole reason why I’ve said that an accurate test must be conducted using a high vacuum chamber capable of reaching 1e-7torr. The fixture I describe for the experiment is designed to accurately duplicate the same conditions as would exist in orbit with 4.7psi on one side of the membrane and 1e-7torr on the other. Under those conditions, the membrane would burst proving the impossiblity of the spacesuits and gloves and proving the hoax of Gemini spacewalks, Apollo moonwalks, ISS EVAs, and Hubble EVAs.

    Also, why are you providing me links to vacuum chambers?

  292. NGCHunter

    @Neil
    “However, I can’t endorse the photo as independent verification. I’ve researched the size of those solar arrays and NASA says they’re 58 meters long with areas of 375 sq. meters which means the width must be 6.5 meters. The blur that you contend is a man is easily half that width so the man would have to be 3.25meters tall. That’s converts to about 10.7 feet. That would be a mighty tall man.”

    So you’re a hypocrite who doesn’t accept independent verification, got it. By the way, your calculations are extremely flawed; you made the fatal assumptions that the solar panels are both are either in the exact same plane as the spacewalker, or that the pass occured directly overhead (it didn’t) and that the solar panels were directly horizontal with the ground, permitting a comparison of their width to the spacewalker’s height. In truth the panels are angled to track the sun, therefore foreshortning will cause them to appear more narrow to an observer only looking at them in 2 dimensions than they actually are, artifically inflating the spacewalker’s “height.” You also fail to account for any amount of inflation due to slight tracking inaccuracy blurring the shape, or overexposure of the very reflective space suit. With all of that not taken into account (how very convienent for you, wouldn’t want to have to face the truth would you?), 3 meters is suprisingly close to the true number.

  293. Neil

    @NGCHunter–
    Actually, even if the blur were the same size as a man, I still wouldn’t be able to accept the blur as independent verification. It’s a blur. I think it’s more likely something simply hanging off the prop.

  294. Neil asks

    Also, why are you providing me links to vacuum chambers?

    Because Neil you said

    The potential market for vacuum gloves is huge. NASA has strangely failed to commerically spin-off its vacuum glove technology. They are not for sale. Ever. Anywhere. For any price.

    Ivan3man has demonstrated a number of times that you are wrong.

  295. @Neil

    I think it’s more likely something simply hanging off the prop.

    Pray tell, how are the “props” assembled in orbit? Especially as there is something “hanging” off the prop.

  296. Neil

    @Shane–
    Yes, there is something on the market called a “vacuum glove box” but it’s deceptive because they’re not glove boxes where the gloves can be used while the box is under vacuum. The gloves would balloon and burst.

    I still don’t understand why the presentation of links to vacuum chambers would be a suitable response to my contention that true vacuum glove boxes that allow use of gloves in a box under high vacuum don’t exist and never have and aren’t for sale. The gloves would balloon and burst. Even at medium vacuum, the gloves would be too stiff to flex and might even burst at those pressures also.

    I don’t know how they assemble the props but I think it a strong probability that assembling a prop is far easier than assembling the real thing.

  297. @Neil
    Ah, I see. That is no true scotsman vacuum chamber.

    Obviously the prop has to have similar specifications to the real thing otherwise we wouldn’t be able to see such a spectacular image as NGCHunter linked to. So, tell us, what is the easy method of building and ISS sized prop in orbit? A prop that so closely fits the specs of the real ISS you’d have to wonder why they just don’t build the real thing.

  298. @Neil
    “Actually, even if the blur were the same size as a man, I still wouldn’t be able to accept the blur as independent verification.”

    So you’re fully hypocritical then. Unfortunately for you, the question is not whether the picture is adequately pleasing to YOU aesthetically, the question is whether or not it’s independent confirmation of spacewalks. It is. You lose.

    By your illogical thinking it really wouldn’t matter how aesthetically pleasing the picture is, you could always just make the same claim that it’s “just a prop floating next to the prop.” You could also just as easily claim that any country who launches a probe that proves we landed on the moon is just finding evidence of props, despite your prior establishment of that as a goalpost. Enough with the claims, out with the proof. It’s now your job to PROVE your claim that it’s “just a fake spacewalker.” As you can see in the picture here, the spacewalker was right where they were supposed to be according to the “faked spacewalk” simultaneously broadcast on NASA TV. That’s damning evidence and all you have to come back with are empty claims without any evidence. You wanted evidence, you got it, now it’s your turn to produce.

    “I don’t know how they assemble the props but I think it a strong probability that assembling a prop is far easier than assembling the real thing.”

    Not only is it your job to explain how, but it’s your job to prove how if you want your argument to hold a drop of water. How do they put spacewalkers on the station if there are no spacewalkers?

  299. NGCHunter

    @Shane
    Indeed, ISS looks exactly as it should to ground scopes. Here is the best-ever ground based image of ISS and the shuttle taken using very advanced adaptive optics:
    http://www.phys.ncku.edu.tw/~astrolab/mirrors/apod_e/image/0706/atlantisISS_dantowitz.jpg
    It doesn’t get more real than that, though even if they captured a picture of a spacewalker, Neil still wouldn’t accept it. His mind is simply closed to evidence, so he would never accept a vacuum chamber with a proper spaceglove – it would always be ‘faked’ somehow, or the pressure wouldn’t be what they claim it is. The fact is, we’ve already gone way beyond mere evidence of ‘what is possible’ – this is evidence of ‘what is really happening.’ The possibility of spacewalking doesn’t rule out a hoax, only direct evidence can do that.

  300. Charlie Young

    Don’t you understand? Neil is so thoroughly convinced his position is correct, he doesn’t need any proof. He’s right, dammit! The rest of us are the fools and slaves falling for a hoax. We’re the ones who need to see the light with our own eyes and do all the foot work and experiments so he doesn’t have to look like a fool when he trys to go ask for funding and equipment. If he lets us do the dirty work, we get to be the fools. This person needs to be on the meds he so deplores. He’s already a slave to his delusions. Either that or a great storyteller.

  301. Neil

    @NGCHunter–
    It would be hypocritical of me to say, yes, it is independent verification while simply taking your word for it that the blur is a man. It’s a blur and a blur much bigger than a man.

    There is a way to prove that Apollo and the other things are not hoaxes (to my satisfaction). The beauty of the proof is that it doesn’t have to happen in space or on the moon or anyplace else other than a nice clean air-conditioned laboratory here on Earth. We take some of the space suit or glove material fabricated into a membrane and test it using a high vacuum chamber with 1e-7torr on one side and 4.7psi on the other.

    Also, I’d be willing to shutup forever on this subject if an independent team of Citizen witnesses, technically qualified, sworn in under oath were allowed to examine the testing equipment and witness the testing and operation of a spacesuit complete with nickel porous plate ice sublimator worn by a live subject in a walk-in high vacuum chamber with radiation lights on. It would be best if I was on the team.

  302. Charlie Young

    So even if the suit and gloves work as advertised in your experiment, the Zionists are still out there. The whole thing still remains a hoax until you can once, and for all, be shown that the Zionists do not exist. Once again, the goalposts will move.

  303. Neil

    @Shane–you’ve come into the discussion late so I encourage you to read the thread from the beginning to understand that Ivan and I have already discussed what you’re confused about.

    @Charlie–there’s a lot at stake. If the independent verification is conducted as I describe, it’s lost moon, lost ISS, lost Hubble and possibly lost Zionist-controlled USA. It’s a lot of people extremely upset. It’s war and possibly nuclear war. It’s the people of the United States shaken out of a deep sleep confronting the meanest, smartest, dirtiest and most criminal enemy ever confronted in the entire history of the United States. I’m confident the United States would eventually destroy Israel if Israel didn’t agree to planned peaceful deconstruction but a lot of the surface of the Earth would be radioactive and much of it transformed into obsidian glass.

    Personally, I think liberation and advancement of the human species out of slavery would be worth it but you might be a more comfortable slave willing to keep the shackles of Zionist control comfortable with the made-for-slaves delusions fed you by your masters.

  304. Charlie Young

    Just sayin’ if the gloves and suit work as NASA says they do and as all the astronauts who’ve trusted them say they do, where does your discussion go from there? Where is the next conspiracy? Where is Zion getting its money? Your story gets more complicated and convoluted as each layer of your onion is disproven.

  305. Neil

    @Charlie–
    Where do you think they’re getting the money?
    It’s obvious they’re getting it.
    With a GDP of only $200billion and a population just over 7million, a Nation can’t afford the guns and butter of a nuclear military along with the generous social programs Israel has in place.
    I’m confident some of it is acquired through hoaxes like the space program that allow appropriated tax dollars to be funneled to Israel.
    I also think people like Bernie Madoff serve as agents to steal financial investments.
    I’ve personally called on Zionist University of California President Mark Yudoff who gets paid $828,000 per year and is a broken record feigning accountability to actually show some accountability and order an independent audit of the UC Retirement System allegedly holding $70Billion in assets. He won’t. It’s a Zionist ponzi scheme and most of fund has already been looted by Israel.
    I’ve also called on the Zionist Gerry Parsky to order the independent audit of the CalPers retirement fund of around $150billion. He won’t. It’s a Zionist ponzi scheme and most of the fund has already been looted by Israel.

    It’s going to be horrible when TRUTH is finally revealed.

  306. T.E.L.

    Neil said:

    “…and much of it transformed into obsidian glass.”

    That depends on what one means by “a lot”. All the nukes ever built would fuse only a relative smidgen of all the silica on Earth to glass. And that’s only if they’re detonated over sand. Is the beach usually a primary target?

    Neil, the Drama Queen.

  307. Charlie Young

    And still, the question remains, what do you do if the suits and gloves work as NASA and the astronauts in space claim they do? NASA is no longer the sham you see it to be and we get to keep our “delusion” of all the great science and exploration it has provided. You, on the other hand, have to move on. We continue to revel in the greatness that is space exploration and you continue on, fighting against Zionism. We’re all happy. So Neil, go and do that experiment with whoever you can convince to supply the equipment so we can get this over with. We’ll continue on in our “delusion” and revel in our amazement of what we see and know.

  308. Rayyan

    wOw wOw wOw!!!

    This is still going on?
    I haven’t read all the comments, but NEIL, I definitely support U!!!
    As you do have your bearings straight!
    I love your theories.

    YAY to you!!!

  309. Rayyan

    Yeah the TRUTH is always a very very bitter pill to swallow!!!

  310. Mark Hansen

    Neil said (post 304)
    “…Also, I’d be willing to shutup forever on this subject if an independent team of Citizen witnesses, technically qualified, sworn in under oath were allowed to examine the testing equipment and witness the testing and operation of a spacesuit complete with nickel porous plate ice sublimator worn by a live subject in a walk-in high vacuum chamber with radiation lights on. It would be best if I was on the team.…”

    Who is going to be technically qualified to be on this team, aside from Neil who is technically qualified to run everything apparently? Why, it would be people experienced in using these things which would make them non-independent witnesses, and quite possibly Zionist overlords, in Neil’s eyes. So, far from shutting up, Neil would rant and rave even more. Neil, there’s farmland that needs fertilising; your rants would be perfect.

  311. NGCHunter

    @Neil
    “It would be hypocritical of me to say, yes, it is independent verification while simply taking your word for it that the blur is a man. It’s a blur and a blur much bigger than a man”

    You’ve failed to provide any reasonable explanation for what you derisively call a “blur.” You’ve failed to properly calculate and quantify the physical size of the spacewalker (personally I measure the spacewalker to be about 11 pixels tall, corresponding to about 6.5 feet when using the length of the panels as a reference – still subject to some slight foreshortening – your failure to recognize such shortcomings in your guess tell me you’re in no way qualified to rule out such photos). You’ve failed to provide a reasonable explanation for what you call a “prop ISS.” Your theory is invalidated by direct observation, the burden is on you to explain it, not insult it. So far all you’ve shown is a lack of qualification to dismiss it.

    “There is a way to prove that Apollo and the other things are not hoaxes (to my satisfaction)”

    If you are unwilling to accept the above evidence, no there is not without being hypocritical and violating your own “logic.” You’re just pathetically trying to establish the goalpost where YOU want it, in an arbirtary impossible to achieve location, regardless of how many gaping holes your theory has due to even greater damning evidence. The ability to perform a spacewalk does not prove it happened (just out of curiosity, how much radiation do you think should be present and in what form, and what proof do you have for it?). Independent witnesses on the ground do prove it happened, however, to a greater standard of proof.

  312. NGCHunter

    @Rayyan
    What explanation do you have for images of ISS and spacewalkers taken by amateurs on the ground?

  313. Neil

    @NGCHunter–
    I just can’t understand how you can be so sure that blur is a man. I’m not insulting it; I’m just calling it the blur it is. It’s a blur and it could be anything. I’m not sure but I suspect it’s something hanging loose from the ISS prop.

    Why do you think a laboratory with a high vacuum pump or a visit to NASA’s Glenn Research Lab to witness the spacesuit test are arbitrary and impossible locations? We could have this done in a day.

    I’m not sure what the radiation levels are but I think we could duplicate the sun’s lumination to duplicate moon surface temperature in the walk-in vacuum chamber. Actually, that part isn’t that important and I’d even be willing to leave it out of the experiment as long as the spacesuit with nickel porous plate sublimator in high vacuum part of the experiment went forward at a temperature above room temperature.

    @Mark Hansen–
    I know a few people I’d nominate to be on the team.
    It might be difficult to get some because they would fear the adverse effects their sworn honesty would have on their zionist-controlled careers. Guarantees of amnesty from professional reprisals might be necessary.

    @Charlie
    I don’t think you’re going to be reveling much longer. Most of the dire predictions I’ve made about the economy since 2000 when the NASDAQ peaked and crashed are coming true. Like the Apollo, 9/11 and holocaust hoaxes, most people can’t bring themselves to confront the actual reasons for our economic collapse. I tried my best to prevent it with my presentation of my workable but admittedly radical engineering proposal during the California 2003 Recall Election. I lost; mediocrity won. We’re seeing the awful consequences in California now that will only get worse as they spread increasing poverty across the United States.

    The adage is very TRUE–”where there is no vision, the people perish.”

  314. Davidlpf

    Do have any material with verifiable dates on it on your predictions.

  315. T.E.L.

    Davidlpf Says:

    “Do have any material with verifiable dates on it on your predictions.”

    It wouldn’t matter if he did. The economic downturn could be seen coming from a couple of parsecs. No special conspiracy theory is needed to understand it.

  316. Davidlpf

    How can we trust him if we can not verify what he saying, he might be a lying zionists trying to fool us.

  317. Mark Hansen

    Actually, David, we do. Post 5. He predicted a major malfunction of the LRO. If it doesn’t malfunction, then he should peddle his fertiliser elsewhere. Sound fair, Neil?

  318. Nigel Depledge

    Neil (294) said:

    The biggest surprise of this discussion is that nobody has challenged me on the crux of my argument that a membrane operating between a 5 psi differential pressure between 15 and 10psi behaves differently than a membrane operating between a 5psi differential between 5psi and 0psi. Do you understand my explanation on why I think that?

    Actually, your “explanation” was no such thing.

    Either you refer to arcane physical chemistry with which very few pweople are familiar, and therefore your explanation should be detailed, fully referencing the appropriate literature; or it is genuinely the nonsense it appears to be.

    I asked you a simple question that you ignored (unless I missed the answer wading through all your other dross) – how does the glove tell the difference?

    In ultrafiltration processes (something with which I am routinely familiar), a key parameter is transmembrane pressure (TMP) – and the process and membrane will behave exactly the same for a given TMP however that is generated. I.e. the same TMP is generated with 3 barg on the upstream side and 2 barg on the downstream side as is generated with 1 barg on the upstream side and 0 barg on the downstream side. The membrane cannot tell the difference and the process behaves in exactly the same way.

    (“barg” is the unit bar gauge, i.e. bar above atmospheric pressure, where 1 bar is roughly 103 kPa.)

    In your example, a 5 psi pressure difference (incidentally, it is a difference not a differential – a differential is a rate of change of something) is a 5 psi pressure difference. The net pressure on the glove is exactly the same in each case. Unless you can demonstrate a mechanism by which the behaviour of the glove will be different and evidence that this indeed applies, your argument falls flat.

    BTW, simply asserting something to be so (even with an oblique and very vague reference to some physical chemistry) does not count as demonstrating it.

  319. Nigel Depledge

    George (21) said:

    I have a third proposal that the conspiracy theorists and believers have both overlooked…Is it possible humans actually walked on the moon but not WHEN they claimed to have done it?

    No, because this would have required just as big a conspiracy as would faking the moon landings in toto.

    Parts of the LEM was as thick as an aluminum soda can. The Van Allen Radiation belts would have cooked the astronauts.

    Well, of course the astronauts were not in the LEM when they passed through the Van Allen radiation belts.

    However, if they had been they would still have been protected from the Van Allen radiation.

    This old chestnut keeps coming back because so many people have no idea what radiation actually is. In the Van Allen belts, IIUC, it is mostly protons or electrons. Isn’t it funny how people are quite happy to sit in front of an electron gun (that generates the cathode rays in a cathode ray tube, AKA TV set or computer monitor before we had LCD and plasma displays) for hours on end yet run screaming when they hear the word “radiation”?

    The relatively thin skin of the CM provides a significant measure of protection from the Van Allen radiation. Even 1 cm of perspex will protect against even high-energy electrons. Aluminium is denser than perspex and so a better shield, but it is not so dense as to pose a risk from Bremsstrahlung radiation. Additionally, the trajectory was carefully planned so that the astronaust passed through the belts in just a few minutes, and not through the most intense parts of the belts. Even in the 1960s, we knew stuff about radiological protection.

    Was the technology to shield the astronauts from such intense radiation available in the late 60s or early 70s?

    Yes, sheets of aluminium were available in the 1960s. What do you think modern radiological protection is? What “technology” do you think has been developed to provide a better shield against radiation?

    Also, how intense do you think the radiation was in the Van Allen belts? Are you absolutely certain that it is enough to instantly kill an unprotected astronaut?

    It’s quite possible the LRO will show remnants of moon landings that were actually made much later…in the 1990s for example.

    No, it really isn’t.

    I do not think my theory is on the realm of the ridiculous because why did the Russians throw in the towel and give up sending manned expeditions to the moon?

    Their manned lunar exploration programme was top secret. How can you know when exactly they gave up on it? Their official line on lunar exploration was that their unmanned programme was sufficient, but after the end of the cold war and the fall of communism, it came to light that they had built a lot of hardware that was basically similar to the Apollo systems. I think it is reasonable to suppose that they only gave up on landing a man on the moon after Apollo 11′s success.

    They consistently beat America in sending a man into orbit, a woman into orbit, the first space walk, endurance records in space…why would they just give up in the quest to land human on the moon after the alleged July 20, 1969 landing? think about it…it’s nearly 40 years later and no other country has matched that feat? I find it hard to believe that it happened when it did.

    Why? It was hideously expensive, extremely dangerous, and, from the Soviet perspective, only worth doing if they could score propaganda points against the US.

    In the absence of any real evidence to the contrary, it seems perfectly reasonable to suppose that they gave up after being beaten to it.

    As for the other stuff you mentioned – first man in space, etc.

    The first man in space was because the USA had no manned spaceflight programme until the space race was well under way. The capsules used by the soviets were basic (the cosmonaut was merely a passenger in the earliest designs), and they took bigger risks than the US. The first spacewalk was almost a disaster, and the first woman in space was a publicity stunt, not a technological achievement.

  320. IVAN3MAN

    Ivan–
    You perplex me. I’m not sure which side of this discussion you’re on. You apparently provide a video that demonstrates the nondexterity of a glove in vacuum supporting the hoax theory but you then complain that the glove didn’t burst.

    Hmm… perplexed seems to be your general problem, which is why you are making an argumentum ad ignorantiam and/or argument from personal incredulity.

    The video that I have posted above is part of a documentary, The Truth Behind the Moon Landings, that was shown on British TV, in response to the the 2001 FOX ‘documentary’, Did We Land On The Moon?, and it generally debunks all Moon landing hoax conspiracy ‘theories’ mentioned in the FOX ‘documentary’.

    My reason for posting part 2 of the series is because it shows Moon landing hoax conspiracy proponent, Ralf René, using his own DIY vacuum chamber to ‘prove’ his ‘theory’. My point is that if he can build his own vacuum glove box, then why don’t you do likewise to ‘prove’ the TRUTH™, since you claim to have ‘experience’ with vacuum chambers? Furthermore, “self-taught” engineer Ralf René made the same mistake of argumentum ad ignorantiam and/or argument from personal incredulity, and failing to acknowledge the fact that the inside of the glove in his demonstration was at 1 atmosphere pressure — space suits only need to be pressurized to ~4.7 psi., so there would not have been the problem of lack of flexibility as claimed by Mr. René.

    I can’t watch the video because I’ve never been able to successfully download the Adobe Flash Player but I suspect he’s operating the glove in low vacuum or medium vacuum, not high vacuum.

    Why can’t you download the Adobe Flash Player? Is it because you are using an obsolete computer, or is it because you are currently incarcerated in an institution where they don’t allow you to watch video? ;-)

    Does he say what the pressure is inside the chamber?

    Mr. René did not say.

    The biggest surprise of this discussion is that nobody has challenged me on the crux of my argument that a membrane operating between a 5 psi differential pressure between 15 and 10psi behaves differently than a membrane operating between a 5psi differential between 5psi and 0psi. Do you understand my explanation on why I think that?

    No. Explain.

    Your pointing out that the suits are pressurized to only 4.7psi is the whole reason why I’ve said that an accurate test must be conducted using a high vacuum chamber capable of reaching 1e-7torr. The fixture I describe for the experiment is designed to accurately duplicate the same conditions as would exist in orbit with 4.7psi on one side of the membrane and 1e-7torr on the other. Under those conditions, the membrane would burst proving the impossiblity of the spacesuits and gloves and proving the hoax of Gemini spacewalks, Apollo moonwalks, ISS EVAs, and Hubble EVAs.

    Also, why are you providing me links to vacuum chambers?

    So that you can carry out your ‘test’ in the manner described. ;-)

  321. NGCHunter

    @Neil
    “I just can’t understand how you can be so sure that blur is a man.”
    It’s located right where the spacewalker should have been at that moment in time. It’s never seen “hanging off the ISS” at any other time.

    “I’m not insulting it;”
    Yes you are.

    “It’s a blur and it could be anything.”
    No, it couldn’t. It’s not part of ISS because we know what the P3 truss looks like and that’s not part of it.

    “I’m not sure but I suspect it’s something hanging loose from the ISS prop.”
    I don’t care what you ignorantly suspect, I only care about what you can prove.

    “Why do you think a laboratory with a high vacuum pump or a visit to NASA’s Glenn Research Lab to witness the spacesuit test are arbitrary and impossible locations?”
    Oh sure, like they’ll let an idiot like you supervise such a test or put “radiation lamps” not found in space to irradiate the test subject… I’m not as stupid as you take me for.

    “I’m not sure what the radiation levels are but I think we could duplicate the sun’s lumination to duplicate moon surface temperature in the walk-in vacuum chamber.”
    Oh, so you think the temperature of the moon is a problem? I got news for you, the outside skin of ISS gets quite hot towards the end of 45 minutes in direct daylight; we’re talking about 250 degrees hot. Of course, since you refuse to acknowledge direct evidence of ISS spacewalks, you can just as easily pretend like this would also be a problem.

  322. T.E.L.

    Nigel Depledge Said:

    “Also, how intense do you think the radiation was in the Van Allen belts? Are you absolutely certain that it is enough to instantly kill an unprotected astronaut?”

    Precisely. People in general don’t understand the principle of cumulative dose. It’s just like x-rays. A certain number of x-rays will give a patient a certain cumulative dose, but it’s safe to have a certain number of them per year.. The human body is constantly decaying, falling apart, and also constantly putting itself back together. Ionizing radiation helps the body to fall apart; but if the rate of recovery is greater than the rate of decay, then the radiation is tolerable. The belts’ environment induces a certain rate of damage. Is it enough to overpower the body’s own recuperative powers? Only if one carelessly loiters. To the contrary, a spacecraft on a ballistic path to the Moon is necessarily moving at a pretty fast clip. The total exposure while zipping through isn’t lethal by a longshot. (This brings up an interesting question. Can a crew returning from the Moon use aerobraking to settle into Earth-orbit instead of plowing through the atmosphere headlong? They can, but the series of elliptical orbits that result will spend a lethal amount of time passing repeatedly through the belts’ worst regions.)

    Just as important is how the Apollo spacecraft never even passed through the harshest regions of radiation. Cape Canaveral is at a latitude of about 29 degrees north of the equator. If at launch maximum use is made of Earth’s rotation for some free orbital velocity, then the plane of the cislunar trajectory will be tilted 29 degrees. This alone carries the projectile very much south of the belts’ densest regions. There are photos taken by the crews which look down upon Antarctica from a very great distance.

  323. Neil

    @Ivan–
    I was able to download the flashplayer and have watched the portion of the video where Ralf Rene demonstrates his glove. Although you can’t see the pump or learn the level of vacuum that it attains, it is most definitely a roughing pump and it sounded like a small vacuum pump like the sort used by refrigeration technicians to pump freon. I guess it might be one of those small easily portable variety. As such, it would be unable to attain high vacuum and might not be able to attain even medium vacuum.

    Although I’ve touched on many aspects of Apollo and ISS whose preponderance leads me to conclude that it’s a hoax, I admit that PROOF is lacking. The easiest way to prove it here on Earth would be to either test the operation of NASA spacesuits in a high vacuum chamber before independent, sworn under oath, technically-qualified American Citizen witnesses or to test a piece of the suit or glove fabricated into a membrane to test its ability to withstand the differential pressure between the alleged working pressure of a spacesuit at 4.7psi and the vacuum of oribital space at ~1e-7torr.

    NASA recently sponsored a NASA Glove Challenge with a $200,000 prize. One of the requirements was a dexterity test conducted in a box pumped down to 10psi with the glove at atmospheric pressure serving as the glove in a glovebox. Technically, it was a true vacuum glovebox but the box was only pumped down to 10psi. They did this allegedly to duplicate a near 5psi pressure differential between 5psi in space glove and the near 0psi(1e-7torr) of space. http://www.nasa.gov/audience/foreducators/holding-a-winning-hand.html

    My position is that the forces on the glove and suit won’t be the same when operating with a 5psi differential between 15psi and 10psi than they would if operating between 5psi and near 0psi.

    The reason I think this is explained using the Kinetic Particle Theory of Pressure that describes pressure as being caused by the interaction of molecular particles acting against the surfaces within which they’re confined. At a given temperature and volume, if you have more particles, the force applied by those particles on the sides of the container will be greater and thus the pressure will be greater. But if you have fewer, the force applied will be lower and the pressure will be lower.

    If we say that each 1psi is represented by 1 billion particles, then 15psi will be 15billion particles and 10 psi will be 10billion particles. In the NASA test, there would be 15billion particles acting on the inside of the glove and 10 billion particles acting on the outside of the glove for a ratio of 5 to 1 or a force factor of 5.

    If we have 5psi on the inside of the glove, 5 billion particles are on the inside.
    If we have 0psi or 1e-7torr that converts to 2e-9psi or 2billionths of a psi on the outside of the glove, we have only 2 particles on the outside.
    The force factor is a ratio of 5billion to 2 or a force factor of 2.5billion.

    As an analogy, pretend you have two battles. In one you have an army of 15 billion arrayed against 10 billion. In the other you have 2.5billion arrayed against an army of only 2. Which battle do you think will last longer?

    So you see, even though a difference of 5psi exists in both cases, when you get close to 0psi, significant differences in force factor exist.

    The gloves and suits will burst. NASA’s pulling a fast one and the contest is designed to reinforce the hoax while cleverly avoiding test conditions that truly duplicate the conditions in orbit.

    The link you provided for the vacuum glove box that included the warning about not pumping to ultrahigh vacuum (1e-9torr) was wise because at that vacuum you reduce the population of paricles in the chamber by another factor of a hundred. That means the one army would only have two men but now the other would have 250 billion men. Significant increase in force.

  324. Neil

    @Ivan–
    Actually the ratio of 15billion to 10billion would be 3 to 2 with force factor of only 1.5.

  325. Neil

    @Neil
    Okay, I’ll bite. What are the actual reasons for our economic collapse?

    Basically, Zionist mafia criminal obstruction of the installation and distribution of fiber-optical supported 1-160Gb/sec. internet.

    The great tragedy is that it was possible and coming to fruition more than ten years ago when it was suddenly obstructed causing the eventual crash of the NASDAQ from 5040 on March 10, 2000 when projected future bandwidth suddenly failed to keep up with visionary wealth-generating business applications requiring the imminent logical progression.

    Zionists correctly understand that the minds of their American slaves are their greatest asset and they will commit any crime anywhere to preserve control of that asset. 1-160Gb/sec Internet bandwidth renders television obsolete and places within the hands of any average Citizen the liberating power to produce high-quality television-style programming for instant download 24/7. Zionist mind-controllers know this must not happen. Even with the current internet, Zionist-controlled television remains the primary conduit through which most American slaves are programmed to think. In the past ten years, improvements in available wireless and copper-wire supported bandwidth have been unremarkable. To help place it in perspective, a standard 2-hour long movie on DVD contains 1Gb of information and with a 1Gb/sec system could be downloaded in one second.

    Quadrillions, possibly more, in wealth has been sacrificed to preserve Zionist Israeli power over Americans. Our American government has lost out on a huge fortune in tax revenue represented by a NASDAQ exceeding 30,000 and has conspired, instead, to sabotage world prosperity with the NASDAQ wallowing at around 1800 before the final plunge. The real estate bubble burst, automobile manufacturing crisis and banking crisis are secondary effects. The primary cause was the destruction of the economic engine to sustain economic growth represented by fiber-supported broadband.

    As far as I know, I am the only person ever to run for political office anywhere in the United States with installation of an all-optical 1-160Gb/sec telecommunication system as part of his political platform.

    California would be in the black at the leader position to accommodate and liberate the entire human population of the world with an exciting, accountable and visionary engineering plan had I been elected. Instead, the Zionist-owned Arnold has ushered in the inevitable results of unaccountable ethereal rhetoric substituting for any accountable articulation of vision. Zionist-owned Obama follows in his footsteps. Zionist-controlled American slaves remain deluded forcefully fighting for their impoverishing slavery.

  326. DrFlimmer

    @Neil

    AFAIK it is not the force FACTOR that counts, but rather the force difference. The suit must withstand a force that is created by a pressure of, say, 5psi (I don’t want to claculate the force from the pressure; it’s easy, but it’s late and I don’t want to spend too much time here) and not a force factor of infinity.
    I conclude this from the third Newtonian axiom: Force = Counter-force. This means: If I press my hand against the wall with, say, 25N, then the wall acts on my hand with the same force (just in the opposite direction).
    The same is true for the spacesuite. The 5psi pressure in the suit creats a specific force. The force from the outside is essentially zero, since we have vaccum. So the suit has to withstand the force created by 5psi.
    The suit is not working like a membrane since, at best, there are no particles leaking out. So the factor of particles is not important – just the force-difference.
    This is, how I understand it in a short version!

  327. T.E.L.

    DrFlimmer, you are correct, and Neil is clueless.

  328. I watched an episode of South Park the other night, in which the character of Cartman responded to a question about something that happened in the past by delivering an epic piece of fantasy in which he, Cartman, actually did all the things another character had done. His ego was so huge, and his need to be right so powerful, that Cartman was perfectly willing to believe in the most outrageous fantasies of his own design — including saving the world from an invading army of Jewbots — rather than fess up to the simple truth that he was wrong.

    I don’t know why that came to mind. It does seem appropriate somehow, however.

  329. T.E.L.

    I’d like to see a version of Karel Čapek’s play under the title R.U.J. (Rossum’s Universal Jewbots).

  330. Neil

    I remember once I had to repair some termite damage.
    And one of the boards I removed had zero damage on the outside and looked like a normal board.
    But it was very light.
    The termites had hollowed it out without damaging the surface.
    I think the United States is the same way.
    For years, decades, it’s been hollowed out.
    But it’s not readily apparent with a cursory examination.
    But it’s useless, destroyed, corrupted, wretched inside.
    I don’t know why that came to mind. It does seem appropriate somehow, however.

    @Flimmer–
    With 15psi on the inside and 0psi on the outside, cancel out the areas and you have a mere 15pound force difference. It’s not as simple as that although NASA would like to fool us into thinking so.

    If it’s only 15pounds than the company that manufactures Ivan’s vacuum glove box wouldn’t have to worry about folks taking the box closer to 0psi with ultra-high vacuum. It would still only be just a little closer to a maximum 15 pound force difference.

    15 pounds is nothing and a rubber and cloth covered wicker basket could be used to replace the space shuttle.

  331. Mark Hansen

    So, Neil, you won’t stand by a prediction of yours that we do have documentary evidence for?

  332. Neil

    @Mark

    What are you talking about?

  333. @Neil
    Maybe you should read the entire thread. You seem to forget, often, about claims you’ve made previously.

  334. Neil

    @Shane–
    What are you talking about?

  335. Give the man some Cheesy Poofs and all will be complete.

  336. Judging by his obsession with optical highspeed internet and its linkage to everything from the real estate bust to the dot-com bubble burst in the 90s, I’d say Neil lost his shirt investing in an optical fiber start-up which failed to get off the ground because of a lack of investors. That would explain the whole Jewish thing, too, I suppose, given that everyone knows the Jews control all the banks and they probably tanked his start-up deliberately, just to get him.

    Still haven’t figured out why he appended the “NASA faked the moon landing” bit though. Maybe someone at NASA turned down his job application way back when. Either that, or an old science teacher caught him “experimenting” with a vacuum pump.

    Damn, it sucks being a tool of the zionist hoodlums. Where’s Lynn Redgrave when you need her?

  337. Pat Montana

    Neil,

    You said “The biggest surprise of this discussion is that nobody has challenged me on the crux of my argument that a membrane operating between a 5 psi differential pressure between 15 and 10psi behaves differently than a membrane operating between a 5psi differential between 5psi and 0psi.

    OK…here you go…

    Neil said: “If we say that each 1psi is represented by 1 billion particles”

    On what do we make this assumption. You have not provided any information regarding Volume or Temperature. It take a significantly larger number of particles to reach 1 psi in a volume of 10 cubic feet at 0 deg. C (32 deg F or freezing temp. of water) than it does in a 1 cubic foot space at a temperature of 100 deg. C (212 deg F or the boiling point of water). You cheerfully ignore basic physical considerations which would affect your reasoning.

    The Ideal gas Law is accurate enough for these conditions (i.e. relatively low pressure and relatively high temperatures (a temperature comfortable for an astronaut is considered high by physical chemistry standards)). It states PV=nRT, where P=pressure, V=volume, n=the number of moles of gas, R is the Real Gas Constant, and T=Temperature. Pressure is inversely proportional to Volume and directly proportional to Temperature (that is Pressure increases as Volume decreases and/or Temperature increases and vice versa).

    You have not provided information regarding 2 of the non-constant terms in the equation (V and T). Show me the math using the above equation that show what Volume and Temperature you are using to determine that 1 psi is equivalent to 1 billion particles (1.6055 x 10^-15 mole of gas).

    DISCLAIMER: It has been years since I have had a reason to do these types of calculations. My calculations for the 1 billion particles vs. a mole of gas may not be 100% correct. I do however believe that they a closer to accurate and better backed up by documented physics/chemistry than ANYTHING Neil has provided.

    Neil said: “If we have 5psi on the inside of the glove, 5 billion particles are on the inside.
    If we have 0psi or 1e-7torr that converts to 2e-9psi or 2billionths of a psi on the outside of the glove, we have only 2 particles on the outside. The force factor is a ratio of 5billion to 2 or a force factor of 2.5billion.”

    1) Only if ALL 5 billion particles (the number of which I dispute above) are pressing against the glove/suit, and only the glove/suit, at once. Simple logic says the particles are pressing against the glove/suit, the astronaut, and a large number are in the open space between the glove/suit and the astronaut and are pressing against nothing or are in the course of particle collisions amongst themselves. If it is divided evenly (which it would not be), only 1.666 billion are actually pressing against the glove/suit. In reality the majority of the particles will be “in transit” between the astronaut and the glove/suit and pressing against neither.

    2) “If we have 0psi or 1e-7torr that converts to 2e-9psi or 2billionths of a psi on the outside of the glove, we have only 2 particles on the outside.”
    Extremely bad logic. The density of gas in interstellar space is agreed by the scientific community to be on the average of about 1 atom per cubic centimeter. Clearly the glove/suit is surrounded by more than 2 cubic centimeters of space even at its immediate surface so there is far more than 2 particles outside the glove/suit. Also, this is the density of gas in interstellar space. The density of gas will obviously be higher in Low Earth Orbit (LEO) and even on the surface of the moon, which does in fact have an atmosphere, albeit incredibly sparse by Earth standards. Despite the presence of a high number of particles the conditions would still be considered “high vacuum” as compared to 1 atm.

    3) As several people mentioned in posts above, provide some kind of documentation for your “force factor” theory. I have dug out my old Chemistry text books, Physics text books, and checked Wikipedia (among other web sources) and can find no reference to this “force factor”. Show some kind of basis for this reasoning other than “it’s how you think it works”.

    You make broad general statements regarding physical conditions and provide no documentation for the basis of your reasoning nor provide the supporting mathematics derived from that documentation.

    Your logic is flawed.

    You assertions have no supporting evidence.

    You are wrong.

  338. Pat Montana

    Neil said in #328: “unaccountable ethereal rhetoric”

    Announcer voice “And now for another edition of…

    “REALLY!!!… with Seth and Amy!”

    Seth: Really Neil…you’re complaining about “unaccountable ethereal rhetoric”? REALLY? You continually spout undocumented and unsupportable ideas that fly directly in the face of common sense and logic and you’re worried about “unaccountable ethereal rhetoric”? REALLY?

    Amy: Yeah Neil…you rant about a secret underworld controlling the majority of the worlds population but fail to provide one shred of evidence? REALLY? You say this organization dominates the day to day social, economic, and intellectual activities of the entire world but has yet to allow a single hint of it’s existence escape to the general public? REALLY?

    Seth: And this shadow organization allows you to continue to try to expose it’s existence with impunity? REALLY?

    Amy: REALLY Neil? You also expect everyone to believe you “because you said so” with no attempt to be “accountable” for your “rhetoric”? REALLY? I mean…REALLY?

    Announcer voice “This has been another episode of “REALLY? With Seth and Amy!”

    This concept was used without permission of SNL, NBC, Seth Meyers, or Amy Poehler. If they want to sue my a$$…go right ahead! REALLY!

  339. Neil

    @Pat–
    Yes, I’m familiar with the formula PV=nRT and I was careful to say, “at a given temperature and volume” which makes pressure dependent primarily on n, the number of moles or the number of particles in the volume of interest. It’s unnecessary to quantify V or T; they could be anything. You’re making it harder than it has to be to understand the problem.

    You are correct about the actual number of particles hitting the surface of the glove but still you’re splitting hairs with irrelevant facts. The ratio on each side of the glove or suit membrane will remain the same and so will the factor of force.

    The actual density of orbital space is also irrelevant. I arbitrarily chose 1 billion particles per 1psi so that there would be whole integer of two particles at the very low pressure of a 2billionths of a psi. I did it so it would be easier to understand. You could take the trouble of determining the exact number of moles or particles of gas there were in a volume of a glove if you knew the volume and temperature but in the end the ratio of particles between the inside and outside of the glove would be dependent on the pressure. I chose the simplest way to explain an admittedly difficult to understand problem.

    I know of no other way to explain the situation close to 0psi except using the Kinetic Particle Theory of Pressure. There is such a theory; it’s well documented. I think the analogy I made was clear and straight forward. Please, by all means, if you think you can provide a clearer and better explanation why Ivan’s vacuum glove box carries a warning not to operate in Ultra-high vacuum, educate me. I will listen.

    There’s plenty of evidence. There are no commercially available high vacuum gloves on the market after nearly fifty years of NASA applications despite a huge market for them. There is no documentation of the testing or operation with live subjects of space suits in vacuum chambers on Earth. All high vacuum systems are constructed of heavy metal components although some are equipped with tempered glass bell jars with steel cage shatter guards; no components are made of super-duper spacesuit material. NASA conducted a Glove Challenge purposefully using pressure conditions that don’t duplicate orbital conditions even though they possess the equipment to do so because they know the gloves would burst. In the near fifty years of their alleged use, nobody has dared test a membrane of spacesuit/glove material under pressure conditions duplicating those found in orbit.

    There’s nothing ethereal about my suggestion that after fifty years of a hoax costing $trillions that we put an end to it with a simple high vacuum experiment or the witnessing of a spacesuit test. I don’t understand the hostility to these proposed tests.
    Ethereal would be saying a blur is a man.
    Ethereal is Arnold’s “blow up the boxes” that doesn’t define the boxes.
    Ethereal is Obama’s “change we can believe in” that doesn’t define the change.

    There was once a Hungarian doctor, Ignaz Semmelweis, who said that doctors should wash their hands especially before delivering babies after exiting autopsies. It would take Louis Pasteur years later before there was proof of germ theory but Semmelweis noticed a statistical correlation between infant mortality and the activity of doctors prior to delivering the babies. He knew that doctors coming out of autopsies without washing their hands before deliveries were inceasing the mortality rate of newborns. He got insistent about handwashing. Other doctors were annoyed. “Where’s your proof?”, they asked. He was declared insane and committed to an insane asylum where he was promptly strangled to death by his asylum guards.

    Proof is but a simple high vacuum chamber experiment away but as one of the founders of the Scientific Method, Francis Bacon, once said, “the human mind is designed to deceive itself.”

  340. I’m not sure where you’re going with the Ignaz Semmelweis story but he was not committed because of his insistence on hand washing and apparently he died from complications after a beating from asylum guards. He wasn’t strangled.

    Can’t seem to fix the bolding either, dammit.

  341. Mark Hansen

    Oh, where are my manners? I’m sorry; your prediction of the imminent demise of the LRO in post 5. You remember that prediction, don’t you? The one that in post 320 I asked if you would stand by. Which you would have known about if you had bothered to read the posts. But I understand; you’re way too busy saving the world universe to be bothered with keeping up with current events.

    BTW, why hasn’t the LRO gone belly-up yet?

  342. Mark Hansen

    Shane (343), I think he may be referring to the Semmelweis reflex. For more detail, see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semmelweis_reflex

    There are similarities between Semmelweis’ position and Neil’s. There is only one real difference between the two. Semmelweis was right.

  343. T.E.L.

    The problem with people such as Neil is that they take the a priori position that the Emperor is always naked. But, that’s not always the case; sometimes the Emperor is quite well-dressed, or at least covered enough just for modesty. For those with authentic interest in truth, the objective should never be specifically to expose the Emperor’s nakedness, nor should it be specifically to deny nakedness. It shouldn’t even be about the Emperor per se. It should just be about finding out how things are to the best of one’s abilities.

    To the contrary, Neil is one of those whose entire sense of self-worth is invested in brazen nudity. It’s what makes him get out of bed each day.

  344. @ Pat Montana #341:

    Seth: And this shadow organization allows you to continue to try to expose it’s existence with impunity? REALLY?

    Oh, c’mon, Pat! Everybody knows the evil zionists have to allow at least one contrary voice to be heard. It’s all part of their plan. Of course, they make sure the voice they pick belongs to someone who will be dismissed as a crank, someone who is always on the bottom rung of society, someone who will trend toward underachievement perhaps, preferably an emasculated male who feels disenfranchised, possibly even abused by society as a whole. Their ideal candidate would be someone who spends a lot of time at his computer, doesn’t have a wife or girlfriend, trolls various websites and blogs, is smart enough to know a few sciencey terms and political catch-phrases but doesn’t really apply them correctly to his otherwise unsupported arguments.

    Mind you, that would be the ideal candidate. I’m sure it would be hard to find someone to fit those criteria precisely.

  345. IVAN3MAN

    Typical! As soon as I go away for a while, somebody screws up the thread by failing to close their HTML bold tag… and I see from the source code that the wise guy responsible was Neil.

    Dude, you had 15 minutes of editing time to correct your error — WHAT THE HELL KEPT YOU?!

  346. IVAN3MAN

    I will now attempt to fix it in… 3… 2… 1…

    b {font-weight: normal

  347. IVAN3MAN
  348. Neil

    @Mark–
    I was asked about that in 149 and answered in 157.

    Actually, unfortunately since no country provided independent verification, we’re reliant on the hoaxsters at NASA for information.

    For all we know, LRO may have already gone belly up.
    Back in 1967, Lunar Orbiter 5 took 633 high resolution photos with never since duplicated high resolution of as low as 2meters.
    The combined photography of Lunar Oribiters 1 through 5 covered 99% of the moon.
    I’m not sure but I don’t think I’ve ever seen a single one of those high res photos from Lunar Orbiter 5. Maybe they’ll use them with superimposed fake images of Apollo remanants. How would we know?
    Independent verification is of the utmost importance and the only way it can be had now is by testing the spacesuits or performing the membrane experiment.

  349. Damn zionists and their evil plans to embolden the internets!!!

    And you’d think someone whose world view is focused on the power of the internet would be better at search engine use. 5 seconds to find Lunar Orbiter 5 pix online at the Lunar and Planetary Institute website. Oh, but of course those are all the doctored photos and the ones that have been purposefully blurred. Forgot who I was talkin’ to.

  350. Charlie Young

    Does that mean we need to hold the LandSat and atmospheric satellite images used for weather prediction suspect, also? NASA controls those, too. I guess the zionists want us to have accurate maps and weather prediction.

  351. Neil

    @kuhn–
    Did you find any with a 2meter resolution?

    @Charlie–
    You never answered where you thought the Israelis were getting the money.

  352. Charlie Young

    Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, etc. with all their investment in high tech. Also have to suspect several gov’ts are subsidizing the military for regional stability.

  353. Charlie Young

    To be quite honest, I don’t have your answer. I did a cursory search and it looks like the IDF uses 9% of Israel’s GDP for military purposes, the highest per capita in the world, according to Wikipedia. Israel also has an income tax of >50% to support the military and social programs.

    The nuclear arsenal supposedly possesed by Israel is not publicly known. Who knows, they may only have a handful of small, low yield devices. They may have multiple high yield devices, but it is all speculation. My best guess is their capabilities are probably pretty limitied due to resources and the secrecy is meant to keep their rivals on their toes. I, like you, can only specualte, since the facts are not public.

  354. NGCHunter

    “Maybe they’ll use them with superimposed fake images of Apollo remanants. How would we know?”

    That kind of forgery would be incredibly easy to detect; every image has its own noise fingerprint, either in film grain or digital artifacts, not to mention an optics-specific appearance. Simply compare the noise profiles and find out whether they’re identical or not.

    “Independent verification is of the utmost importance”

    Already done, you’ve proven you’ll ignore any independent verification and create some excuse for not accepting it. Your standard of evidence does not in any way prove that a spacewalk has actually occured.

  355. @ Neil:

    The entire catalog is on the LPI website.

    And I guess you missed this story about NASA’s own efforts to preserve, restore and release the original data from the original 2″ Ampex tapes that recorded the images transmitted from the spacecraft. Check out the cool hi-rez image of Copernicus crater the team has already preserved.

    the usual prefix + science (dot) slashdot (dot) org (slash) article (dot) pl?sid=09/04/13/005224

    I guess the evil zionists are slipping up a bit.

  356. Neil

    @NGC–
    It might be possible to take a preexisting never-before-published photo from the 60′s, digitally enhance it and superimpose something with the same noise footprint.

    If the spacesuit operation is independently witnessed or the space suit membrane test is conducted, we’ll know that the spacesuits don’t work and fifty years of a $trillion hoax will be exposed and, hopefully, ended.

  357. Charlie Young

    Oh, and one last point, Israel dedicated 25 to 28% of their GDP to the military in the late 60s and early 70s during their major offensives. I imagine they were getting deeply into developing their nuclear capabilities at that time and probably developed much of what they have today when resources were so focused on the military.

  358. Neil

    @kuhn–
    It was a simple question; a yes or no would have done. But you couldn’t say yes and you couldn’t bring yourself to say no. I’ve looked at those photos many times. There’s not a single photo at 2 meter resolution. I suspect many of them are left unpublished. The alleged Apollo 8 photos released in 1968 were probably enhanced colorized Lunar Orbiter photos of the Earth taken two years earlier.

    Even though Americans never went to the moon, NASA will always be famous for pulling off the greatest hoax in human history. We only got punked bad but Grissom, White and Chafee got murdered.

  359. Neil

    @Charlie–
    Still not nearly enough.
    They’re the termites that have hollowed out the USA.

  360. @ Neil:

    Okay, here ya’ go: YES.

    Jeebus, frames 5033-5036, 5038, 5063, 5081-5082, 5087-5092, 5104-5107, 5116-5119, 5130-5132, 5148, 5155-5158, 5179, 5189, 5202-5205, and possibly 5211-5217 all appear to be high resolution.

    I think the problem is you need to familiarize yourself with the actualities of high altitude photography. You are obviously not seeing what is right before your eyes.

    Damn evil zionists and their eyeball-blurring conspiracies!!!

  361. Charlie Young

    Oh…Kay…, Neil. How much money do they need to support their military and nuclear programs? You already told us where you think it comes from. This is the last question I’ll ask in this vein. After that, we’ll stick to your moon hoax conspiracy.

  362. Neil

    @kuhn–
    You can easily tell those aren’t photos with 2meter resolution. Show me a photo of a 2meter wide rock. How about 3 meters? Ten? A hundred? How about a thousand?

  363. Mark Hansen

    Neil, you have no proof of the LRO going belly-up. Countries, including Japan, India and China, can easily track it as was done with the Apollo missions. But you’ll just say that they’re all Zionist controlled satellite countries. For you there will be no such thing as independent verification. Your theory does not allow falsification (an important part of the scientific method) and therefore marks you as a dogmatic fundamentalist.

  364. @ Neil:

    Amigo, I cannot call you an idiot because Dr. BA will get mad at me again. So you’ll just have to use your imagination.

    You are making baseless claims.

    You can easily tell those aren’t photos with 2meter resolution.

    Oh really? Hm. Let’s take for example plate # 5205. We download the hi-rez file…dum de dum…okay, there it is. Now we open it up and check the size…roughly 2000 pixels across. Okay, now to the Clementine Lunar mapping site…dum de dum…okay…and we enter the lunar latitude and longitude where the image is centered…dum dum dum…got it. And now to Google Moon (ain’t the internet grand! slow connections and all!)…dum dum dum…there we are. We match the area of interest…find it’s right about…there! Dum de dum…zoom in…zoom some more…shift about to the east…there we are!

    Well, it looks like plate #5205 is about 5 miles across, or 8 kilometers, give or take a meter or two, so…dum dum dum…2000 pixels, 8 kilometers, or…8000 meters…dum de dum…roughly 4 meters per pixel.

    So, given that the spacecraft was 137 km when this photo was taken, which was only 40 some km higher than its lowest point in orbit, I’d say that’s pretty damn close to your 2 meter limit. And that was a quick look at just ONE of the images.

    And if we now look at the photo at highest magnification…dum de dum dum…gosh! Look at all that texture! Shadows, highlights, shades of grey, craterlets, a wee little rille or two, ridges, bumps, hills…pretty damn fine detail!

    Now, maybe you could explain to me how YOU can easily tell this image ISN’T high resolution?

  365. Davidlpf

    Neil is exactly why you should play trolls and I think I finally learned my lesson, goodbye Neil.

  366. Pat Montana

    Neil Said: “I know of no other way to explain the situation close to 0psi except using the Kinetic Particle Theory of Pressure. There is such a theory; it’s well documented.”

    I did not at any time say Kinetic Theory does not exist. The Kinetic Theory of Gases does indeed relate the collisions of gas particles with the walls of a “container” to the pressure of a “container”. What I DID say is that I cannot find your “force factor” mentioned anywhere. All versions of the Kinetic Theory I could find simply show the relationship to particles inside the “container” to the pressure of the “container”. There was not attempt made to relate the forces inside the container to the forces, real or theoretical, outside the container. In fact it does not address the other side of the “walls” of the container at all. It DOES however state that in order to apply the theory “The number of molecules is large such that statistical treatment can be applied.” I’m not sure how this would affect it’s application to high vacuum conditions such as LEO or the lunar surface. My argument has never been that the pressure inside the suit wasn’t created by the particles of gas inside the suit. My argument has been with this “force factor” you continuously fall back on. I requested you to provide some type of reference material from which you obtained this mysterious “force factor”.

    Neil said: “Please, by all means, if you think you can provide a clearer and better explanation why Ivan’s vacuum glove box carries a warning not to operate in Ultra-high vacuum, educate me. I will listen.”

    It’s really quite a simple explanation which you have been given at least twice before, but I will say it for you very…very…slowly one more time so maybe you will get it.

    It. Was. Never. Intended. Nor. Designed. To. Operate. In. Ultra. High. Vacuum.

    Just because that particular vacuum glove box was not designed to operate in ultra-high vacuum does not prove it cannot be done. It just means that one can’t.

    It also does not prove that the gloves/suit cannot work. It only proves the limits of that particular box.

    Your argument is false logic. You are claiming that just because x does not equal 7 the equation is unsolvable for x, when in reality, it just means x does not equal 7. Since you are such a fan of simple terms, how about putting this way…by your logic since my 2003 Toyota truck cannot run 150 mph+ laps on a NASCAR track it must be impossible to run 150 mph+ on a NASCAR track. Now we both know that is false. Just because my truck cannot do it does not mean it cannot be done. Just because Ivan’s box cannot handle ultra-high vacuum does not mean one cannot be built that will.

  367. @Neil
    You keep harping on about independent verification of the moon landings. 3 antennas picked up the TV signals from the moon. 1 in California and 2 in Australia. As far as I am aware we are independent of the USA here in Oz even though we do follow the States like a lapdog in some instances. But. 2 separate TV signals from a foreign country live from the moon. Will that do for starters?

    http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkes_Observatory

  368. Oh, Shane, Shane, Shane…you zionist tool, you.

    Don’t you know you’re a slave? Don’t you know your country’s antennas are slaves, too?

  369. But kuhnigget we have a movie about it,The Dish. So it must be true. Don’t tell me the entertainment industry is part of zio-slave industrial complex?

  370. Don’t tell me the entertainment industry is part of zio-slave industrial complex?

    Well, okay, that part of it might be true…. :P

  371. IVAN3MAN

    Neil:

    There are no commercially available high vacuum gloves on the market after nearly fifty years of NASA applications despite a huge market for them.

    Extract from Angstrom Engineering:

    Glove Box Vacuum Coating

    This Design Includes:

    * Up to eleven (11) thermal resistive source boats, two (2) magnetron sputter sources or one (1) multi pocket electron beam heated source.
    * 1500 l/s low profile cryogenic pumping package.
    * Co-deposition source control using crystal sensor rate controllers and Sigma Instruments deposition control software.
    * Four (4) port glove box integrated to a box style high vacuum chamber. [Editor: My emphasis.]
    * Sliding front vacuum chamber door and a hinged rear access maintenance door. Front glove box to vacuum chamber door allows two handed access to all vacuum coating components within the chamber.
    * A built in standard nineteen (19) inch electrical rack to house the systems computer in addition to other rack mountable components.
    * Fully automated PLC system control allowing automated or manual vacuum pump down, venting and cryo-pump regeneration cycles.
    * Two sets of deposition debris shielding to minimize vacuum chamber evaporated material build up.
    * A magnetic manipulator transfer arm may be attached to the system with an optional vacuum load lock or substrate mask parking stage to introduce deposition substrates or masks without breaking vacuum.

    Glove Box Products Information

    The glove box thin film deposition systems shown throughout the images on this page were designed for research and development involving OLED organic light emitting diode, OTFT organic thin film transistor, and MEMS micro electro mechanical systems moisture barrier encapsulation layer research. These display technologies require long term protection from the air which carries a high content of water moisture and oxygen.

    Our glove box vacuum coating systems may be easily adapted for a variety of leading edge research fields including but not limited to OLED organic light emitting diodes, a-Si PV amorphous silicon photovoltaics, TFT-LCD thin film transistor liquid crystal displays, LTPS low temperature poly silicon, CG-Silicon continuous grain silicon and other mobile display device technology research.

    [...]

    Our glove box high vacuum chamber [Editor: My emphasis] is designed for future upgrades such as a linear motion vacuum load lock transfer mechanism to connect multiple thin film deposition systems, or a substrate shadow mask vacuum transfer load lock to increase research flexibility and decrease thin film deposition process time.

    A glove box system integrated with a high vacuum chamber improves vacuum pump down times dramatically. High vacuum chamber components are not exposed as frequently to atmosphere and their surfaces have a reduced water content allowing the deposition chamber to reach common vacuum process pressure in less than fifteen (15) minutes.

    Vacuum base pressure in our cryo pumped glove box thin film deposition system is less than 5.0E-8 Torr [Editor: My emphasis] with elastomer sealed vacuum doors and can be improved upon with alternate vacuum pumping if required.

    [...]


    So there! :cool:

  372. IVAN3MAN

    @ Davidlpf,

    I’m sure that you will be pleased to learn that the above mentioned engineering company is based in Canada. :-)

  373. Oh nos! Neil has finally been silenced by the evil zionist conspiracy!

    Look out everyones! You is next! They’s coming with their wee lil’ izmels (look it up) and their funnies black hats!

  374. DrFlimmer

    @Shane

    There was also an antenna in Bochum, Germany, that picked up the signal from the moon, too (there was a documantary in German TV a few weeks ago, where they stated that if they would have placed the antenna only a few tenth of a degree away they would not have captured the signal).
    It was the same antenna that was the only one (at least the first one) in the western hemisphere to capture the signal of Sputnik.

    Ah, Germany………………………

  375. @DrFlimmer
    …antenna in Bochum, Germany…
    Of course there is. How else do you communicate with the secret Nazi Saucer bases on the dark side of the Moon.
    http://www.ironsky.net ;-)

  376. Mark Hansen

    Ivan3Man (374), don’t you know that mere facts are no substitute for wild speculation? :)

    It’s a pity that Neil does appear to have fallen foul of teh ebil reptilian Zionist overlords because I did want to clear something up. If NASA’s moon landing funds were diverted to Israel, why wasn’t a moonbase “prop” built to divert even more funds without questions? Teh American slaves were expecting one anyway.

  377. Neil

    @Ivan–
    Again, the gloves are never used while the chamber is under vacuum.
    They would balloon and burst just like a NASA glove and suit if used in orbit. Provide the link next time.

    @Shane–
    Some Apollo hoax conspiracists have used the simultaneous reception of signals on opposite sides of the Earth from the moon as proof of the hoax. Unfortunately, the moon can only be on one side of the Earth at a time.

    Cool opening video but still Zionist propaganda reinforcing their false impreratives of false history. As Americans come to realize that they were definitely fighting on the wrong side of WWI, I suspect the same conclusion might eventually be made about WWII when the holocaust hoax is finally widely revealed. Without the holocaust, the Nazis don’t look nearly as bad. I recommend Nicholson Baker’s, “Human Smoke” to understand better the early days of WWII and the bloodthirsty pathalogical behavior of Winston Churchill as he initiated the bombings of civilian targets.

  378. “It’s alive! It’s alive! It’s alive!”

    Oh, wait. Frankenstein….that’s one o’ them jooish names, ain’t it?

    So, if you’re back, Neil, care to answer my final question?

  379. Man on the moon

    We have proof we’ve gone to the moon. Neil! He seems to be on another planet at the very least.

  380. IVAN3MAN

    Neil:

    Again, the gloves are never used while the chamber is under vacuum.
    They would balloon and burst just like a NASA glove and suit if used in orbit. Provide the link next time.

    Says who?! Provide some links to evidence next time!

    Also, do you see the words “Angstrom Engineering” above in blue font? THAT IS A LINK!

    Are you colour blind as well as stubborn?!

    P.S. Are you related to that “Electric Universe” nutter who calls himself “Anaconda”?

  381. Neil

    @Kuhn–
    I don’t have the bandwidth to enjoy GoogleMoon.
    2 meter resolution and close, oh so close, but just not close enough to get those Apollo remnants into focus.
    They had their chance but they coincidentally sent a camera just shy of having the resolution needed.
    Why would they want to? It’s not like there are any Americans that think Apollo is a hoax.
    And besides, it wouldn’t count as independent verification if the Americans deliver the photos anyway.
    We’ll have to rely on the Europeans, Indians, Chinese or Japanese for that verification.
    What? They didn’t send a camera with the resolution to get the job done either?
    Even the Japanese famous for their cameras who would just love to demonstrate their technical expertise before a World audience?
    Don’t worry–give the Americans some fake video and fake photos and they’ll just eat it up. You see, NASA space accomplishments are imprinted on the same part of the American’s brains as religious beliefs. Once imprinted, they’re almost impossible to remove. The imprints are the modern equivalent of a slave’s shackle. Not only are they slaves, they’re slaves that will actually fight for their slavery.

  382. I don’t have the bandwidth to enjoy GoogleMoon.

    Pretty odd, since I use a dial-up connection. I guess it’s those evil zionist overlords tampering with your phone lines. How convenient.

    2 meter resolution and close, oh so close, but just not close enough to get those Apollo remnants into focus.

    Okay, now here is where the good doctor’s “don’t call anybody an idiot” rule starts having an impact.

    Is it also part of the evil zionist conspiracy that you failed to get an education? Lunar Orbiter 5 flew in 1967 amigo! Apollo 11 landed in 1969! There were no Apollo spacecraft on the moon at the time the Lunar Orbiters were taking their pictures!!!!!

    Do you see now why people like you are called cranks? Honestly, Neil, honestly.

    Who needs an evil zionist conspiracy when the chowderheads of the world are so perfectly capable of basking in their own ignorance.

    Rock on.

  383. Neil

    Ivan–
    Just talked to a guy on the phone at one of Angstrom Engineering’s Reps listed in the link you provided. (No, I’m not color blind but I am stubborn when I think I’m right)
    Anyway, the gloves aren’t used while the box is under vacuum. The box is pumped down to remove oxygen and then refilled with inert gas to atmospheric pressure before using the gloves. The gloves would balloon and burst otherwise.
    Call any one of the reps and they’ll tell you the same thing.

    By the way, are you the administrator for this site?

  384. Neil

    Kuhn–
    Prospector, Clementine, SMART-1, Chandrayaan, Chang’e and Kaguya were all lunar landers launched after Apollo.
    Four of the six could have fulfilled the scientific method requirements for independent verification.
    None did.
    Couldn’t even if they tried.
    Couldn’t even if they had a camera to do the job.
    There are no Apollo remnants on the moon.

    I’ll have to try GoogleMoon again.

  385. @Neil
    Some Apollo hoax conspiracists have used the simultaneous reception of signals on opposite sides of the Earth from the moon as proof of the hoax. Unfortunately, the moon can only be on one side of the Earth at a time.
    What? You don’t think the East Coast of Australia and the West Coast of the US aren’t on the same side of the world? Parkes is less than 180 degrees around from California. There is no reason both stations couldn’t acquire a signal from the moon at the same time.

    More detail about the TV broadcast here from Australia…
    http://www.parkes.atnf.csiro.au/news_events/apollo11/tv_broadcasts.html

    By golly this conspiracy goes to levels of detail that is incredible.

  386. Neil

    @Mark–
    They couldn’t get the allocation.

    They allocated funds for Israel with more politically correct fake International Space Station and fake Hubble telescope instead.

  387. Neil

    @Shane–
    Confirmation of the conspiracy is but a simple high vacuum chamber experiment away. Do you have access to a high vacuum pump?

  388. @Neil
    Without the holocaust, the Nazis don’t look nearly as bad
    That is just stupid. Even discounting the estimated 6 million jews murdered around 60 million people died in WW2 including some 6 million Germans. They might have an issue with your statement.

  389. @ Shane:

    Not to mention the fact they seem to be unaware that the Earth rotates.

    BTW, notice how Neil is now fixating on Google Moon? Notice the way he completely ignored my question about how he could back up his claim that the LO spacecraft images could “easily” be proved to be low resolution? Hint to Neil: Google Moon is just a convenient way of accessing a lunar map. Any lunar atlas would do. Try a library, you know, those big buildings with the paper thingees in them? Oh, wait…I heard the zany zionists control the publishing industry, too.

    Yet again, a standard CRANK appears and exhibits standard CRANK behavior. To wit:

    •baseless claims that are opinion masquerading as fact
    •faulty science, despite claims to be an expert on anything and everything
    •obsessive repitition of the same, despite repeated exposure to evidence proving the contrary
    •blissful ignorance of even the most blatant errors in their “logic”
    •bait and switch techniques to avoid having their mistakes held up to scrutiny
    •a martyr complex (they’re all agin me!) that can be employed to explain every hole in their “logic”
    •eventual disappearance back into the anonymity of the internet, usually right after a final proclamation that their opponents are too dumb to see the Truth™

    So, Neil, why don’t you just jump to the last bullet point there, hm?

  390. Neil

    @Shane–
    And they mostly died because Americans were fighting on the wrong side.
    A German and American alliance would have been smart seeing that they were fighting against Jewish Bolshevism whose survival wasted a good fifty years of the World’s resources in a Zionist-controlled cold war standoff that brought us to the brink of nuclear annihilation.
    We are slaves to the degree we embrace Zionist-controlled false history.

  391. So many lines about Swedish vacuum pumps… but I shall resist.

  392. Lucky for us the Nazis saved us from us from the Polish Jewish Bolsheviks and killing around 5 million of them in the process. Can you imagine living under a Polish Jewish Bolshevik dictatorship? Thanks Hitler.

  393. Neil

    @kuhn–
    I don’t think anybody here is dumb. I just think you’re deluded. I can’t get angry at it because I know I was once deluded myself. And I know how difficult it is to unshackle. It took me years.

    I remember back in 1992 I had a confrontation with two French grad students I worked with who tried to tell me that the holocaust was a hoax. I remember how dramatically angry I got. I was wrong. I was a slave scratching and clawing for my slavery.

  394. Neil

    @Shane–
    Don’t thank Hitler without thanking the Zionist forces that created him.
    They dealt America for a Balfour Declaration.

  395. DrFlimmer

    Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former.

    Albert Einstein.

    (ah, he is part of the zionist complot….)

  396. I’m lost. Was Hitler a goodie or a baddie?

  397. Neil, can’t help but notice you YET AGAIN failed to respond to the question.

    That would be the “bait and switch” bullet point, for those keeping track.

  398. Neil

    @Shane–
    Questions like that are impossible to answer. The number of different contexts within which you can place the question approaches infinite. I think everything is bad to the extent that our history and our world are Zionist criminal controlled.

    It’s very unpleasant and even frightening to think about how controlled we are. Our minds, our paradigms, our blind assumptions, our taken-for-granted false contexts are all carefully manipulated and there really is no better term than slave to describe ourselves within the Zionist-controlled matrix.

    Was Hitler a baddy or a goody? I would say baddy but no more baddy than Churchill, Stalin or Roosevelt. Just as today I think GW Bush and Obama are baddys to the extent they can consciously send people to their deaths for philosophical/political reasons without first exhausting their search for creative satisfying alternative WIN-WIN solutions to all parties that render force unnecessary. People are so conditioned to be slaves that they cannot confront that they are slaves and refuse to even consider someone else’s vision where they’re not slaves. Perpetuated slavery is the unconscious imperative.

  399. Neil

    @kuhn–
    What’s the question?

  400. What’s the question?

    Bwuh-ha-ha-ha-haaaaa!

    Lordy. It’s so difficult. Dr. BA, pleeeeeze, could I just this once break the rule?

    Oh-kay, Neil baby, here it is…again:

    In post number 365 you said:

    You can easily tell those aren’t photos with 2meter resolution

    I, after showing you how easy it was to show the opposite of your statement, then asked:

    Now, maybe you could explain to me how YOU can easily tell this image ISN’T high resolution?

    In other words, could you please back up your OPINION STATED AS FACT with something other than the hard vacuum you seem so obsessed with?

    And while you’re at it, perhaps you can explain why someone who claims to be such an expert on historical events and their true nature could GET SOMETHING AS SIMPLE AS A THE DATE A SPACECRAFT WAS LAUNCHED WRONG WRONG WRONG! Especially when he was using that spacecraft AS THE CRUX OF HIS “ARGUMENT”!

    Clear?

  401. Charlie Young

    So, Neil, you’re Morpheus, not Neo. That movie really jerked you out of our reality into the full glory of your freedom of Zionist control.

  402. Neil

    @kuhn–
    2meters is 6.6feet. Should be able to resolve a lunar rover, LM descent stage and shadows with that.

    What date are you talking about?

  403. Okay, now this is just stupid.

    Have fun, Neil.

    By the way, I AM IN ON THE CONSPIRACY! I AND MY EVIL ZIONIST FRIENDS ARE CREEPING THROUGH YOUR PHONE LINES AS I TYPE.

    BWUH-HA-HA-HA-HA! OY, I’VE GOT SUCH A PAIN IN MY KVAYGUL!

  404. Neil

    @Charlie–
    Actually, no. 9/11 did that and still it took two years after in 2003 when I stumbled on a timeline for the events of the day and noticed that at around 5 in the afternoon, the 47-story Building Seven collapsed. I had never even heard of it. It embarassed me. I was ashamed.

    The metaphors of the Matrix work.

  405. Charlie Young

    Then who’s to say this whole thing isn’t just a machine controlled reality. This is just as plausible as the invisible Zionist organization you talk about. I’m done. The Zionists win. I’m still in their control.

  406. IVAN3MAN

    Neil:

    By the way, are you the administrator for this site?

    That would be telling.

    :cool:

  407. Neil

    @Charlie–
    Actually, they’re not so invisible. The dwarves are easy to see once you grant yourself the politically incorrect permission to see them.

  408. Davidlpf

    Darn this thread is like an accident you just can’t walk away.
    Ivan3man an admin then we are all up the creek.:-)
    Hitler a stooge for the Zionists even funnier the Ivan as an admin.

  409. @ Davidlpf:

    Yes, we all know it doesn’t pay to feed the trolls. However, it’s sort of like eating only one salted peanut. Tough to cut yourself off.

    Eventually, they all get rather tedious, though, and then their entertainment value is swamped by their sheer lack of originality. At least the UFO nutters can come up with something original now and then instead of recycling someone else’s nonsense. And most of them at least make an effort, unlike this latest lazy dimwit.

  410. Mark Hansen

    Neil, I give up. Enjoy your paranoia. Don’t let the reptilian Zionist overlords take that away from you. Remember, the TRUTH™* shall set you raving free.

    *TRUTH™ may not be the truth. Please consult a doctor or other health care professional if symptoms persist.

  411. Neil

    @Mark–
    Okay, but remember, to work in ultrahigh vacuum in a spacesuit is absurd when compared to the very strong metal vacuum chambers used to endure the tremendous forces involved here on Earth. No space gloves spun off for commercial sale and no demonstration of a spacesuit in a vacuum chamber on Earth. TRUTH is but a simple high vacuum experiment away.

    It almost always takes time but I’m confident that you too will sometime in the future unshackle yourself from the delusion that enslaves you.

    The paranoid survive!

  412. Brian

    “It almost always takes time but I’m confident that you too will sometime in the future unshackle yourself from the delusion that enslaves you.”

    Irony, thy name is Neil.

  413. Pat Montana

    Neil,

    We seem to be establishing a common thread here (no pun intended…OK maybe a little).

    We consistently ask you for specific things like evidence, documentation, or the reference material from which you base your allegations of a hoax.

    You consistently dodge the requests and reply with a new allegation or present a response that is tied to the request by a tangent at best.

    So…I am going to be egotistical here and respond for the group one last time. Here is what we want you to make direct, coherent responses to…

    1) Pat Montana said: “I did not at any time say Kinetic Theory does not exist. The Kinetic Theory of Gases does indeed relate the collisions of gas particles with the walls of a “container” to the pressure of a “container”. What I DID say is that I cannot find your “force factor” mentioned anywhere.”…”My argument has been with this “force factor” you continuously fall back on. I requested you to provide some type of reference material from which you obtained this mysterious “force factor”.

    You have NEVER provided any reference material or documentation to support your “force factor” despite repeated requests. Referring to “Kinetic Theory” does not qualify, as I have stated above (with general agreement) that it does not mention your “force factor”. Provide reliable documentation and supporting mathematics for your argument.

    2) Kuhnigget said in reference to his posts of Lunar Orbiter 5 pics:

    Neil said “You can easily tell those aren’t photos with 2meter resolution?”

    Kuhnigget: “Oh really? Hm. Let’s take for example plate # 5205. We download the hi-rez file…dum de dum…okay, there it is. Now we open it up and check the size…roughly 2000 pixels across. Okay, now to the Clementine Lunar mapping site…dum de dum…okay…and we enter the lunar latitude and longitude where the image is centered…dum dum dum…got it. And now to Google Moon (ain’t the internet grand! slow connections and all!)…dum dum dum…there we are. We match the area of interest…find it’s right about…there! Dum de dum…zoom in…zoom some more…shift about to the east…there we are!

    Well, it looks like plate #5205 is about 5 miles across, or 8 kilometers, give or take a meter or two, so…dum dum dum…2000 pixels, 8 kilometers, or…8000 meters…dum de dum…roughly 4 meters per pixel.

    So, given that the spacecraft was 137 km when this photo was taken, which was only 40 some km higher than its lowest point in orbit, I’d say that’s pretty damn close to your 2 meter limit. And that was a quick look at just ONE of the images.

    And if we now look at the photo at highest magnification…dum de dum dum…gosh! Look at all that texture! Shadows, highlights, shades of grey, craterlets, a wee little rille or two, ridges, bumps, hills…pretty damn fine detail!”

    Now, maybe you could explain to me how YOU can easily tell this image ISN’T high resolution?”

    Please provide some evidence for your position that these are not high-res photos. Some documentation of your photo-analysis expertise would also be nice.

    3)DrFlimmer said: “The suit is not working like a membrane since, at best, there are no particles leaking out. So the factor of particles is not important – just the force-difference.”

    This goes back to item #1 in this post…please address this “force factor” you keep referring to!

    4) Nigel Depledge said: “In your example, a 5 psi pressure difference (incidentally, it is a difference not a differential – a differential is a rate of change of something) is a 5 psi pressure difference. The net pressure on the glove is exactly the same in each case. Unless you can demonstrate a mechanism by which the behaviour (sic) of the glove will be different and evidence that this indeed applies, your argument falls flat.”

    Again, this goes back to your mysterious “force factor” that no one else can find supporting documentation for.

    5) IVAN3MAN said If Apollo was a NASA lie, the Soviet Luna/Lunokhod programme (sic) could and would have easily exposed it, and provided the Russians with an excellent communist propaganda coup

    Please address this as we cannot find ANY evidence the USSR would support a moon landing hoax.

    6)Neil said: ”Ten American astronauts allegedly walked on the moon before NASA finally got the last two Apollo 17 astronauts to allegedly photograph themselves with their big blue Earth home in the background. But even then, there are problems with those two photographs. They look like fake doctored photos. They’re close-ups with astronauts wrapping themselves in the American flag and they don’t show the astronauts actually standing on the surface of the moon. They reveal an oddly small mediocre Earth when an Earth seen from the moon should be four times the diameter, sixteen times the area and fifty times brighter than a moon seen from Earth. Defying belief, those are the only two photos of astronauts allegedly on the moon with Earth in the background. If you were one of the previous ten astronauts on the moon, would you have traveled that long dangerous way and not had your photo taken with the Earth in the background?

    We have repeatedly explained the reasons the photo you suggest was not taken. Please provide a reasonable means by which it could have been taken and why it should have been a mission priority above science/mission planning photography.

    7)Neil said: ”There’s not a single photo of the unloading and assembly of any of the moon rovers allegedly used on the last three missions. The rovers themselves represent suicidal designs for 1/6th gravity environments. With high centers of gravity, narrow wheelbases, Earth-equivalent momentum (Momentum=mv), unknown terrain and weighing only 1/6th their Earth weight, they would have tipped over in every turn.”

    Again, this has been addressed repeatedly. Please provide some type of evidence to counter the explanations provided (preferably one that amounts to more than “the video was faked”).

    8 ) Neil said: ”With the examples of the murders of Grissom, White and Chafee, only the most irresponsible would jeopardize their own and their families lives by spilling secrets.”

    Show us one single shred of evidence that these men were murdered! This may be the epitome of your ignorance.

    9)Pat Montana said: Why have YOU not tracked down at least one of these people you claim were so well paid…well threatened for their silence and exposed them?” DISCLAIMER: This quote is paraphrased

    You still have not addressed this. You guessed that it would take a minimum of 1,000 people to “create” the moon landing hoax. It would take far more than that to maintain it for 40 years. Where are these people and why can’t you, in the age of the internet, find at least one and expose him/her?

    10) No quote here…just a request. Please provide ONE…SINGLE…RELIABLE…PIECE OF EVIDENCE FOR YOUR CLAIMS!!! No neo-Nazi propaganda, no Zionist cover-up bull-sh&@, just one single piece of reliable, documented evidence!

  414. Pat Montana

    Neil said: “but remember, to work in ultrahigh vacuum in a spacesuit is absurd when compared to the very strong metal vacuum chambers used to endure the tremendous forces involved here on Earth.”

    EXACTLY our point Neil…a vacuum chamber on Earth has to withstand the pressure of 1 atm (the “tremendous forces” of which you speak) against a vacuum! In space the suit must only withstand 5psi against a vacuum! You are trying to compare apples to oranges. 14.696psi vs a vacuum is completely different than 5 psi vs a vacuum. To say a vacuum chamber will collapse on Earth is proof the suit won’t work is absurd. It is 2 different environments and 2 different pressure differences and 2 different structural requirements.

    p.s. You still seem to be associating rigidity with strength which is, as I pointed out before, FALSE LOGIC! You seem to have “rigidity issues”.

  415. T.E.L.

    My God.

    The King of Pop is dead.

    He was murdered by the Zionists.

    He was about to spill the beans by letting the cat out of the bag.

    At the most recent high-level Zionist meeting (attendance to which was mandatory to everyone in the entertainment industry), Michael stood up, proudly, and made it clear that he was weary of pretending to be a fouled-up ex-Hoosier with a fetish for cosmetic surgery just to carry out his assignment of distracting the Public away from “the TRUTH”. As he marched with head high from the vast meeting chamber (the one several times larger than the Lucas Oil Stadium), he flew his bird in the Elders’ general direction and promised that, by the end of that very day, the door to their closet would be swung wide. Before he even had time to regret his epoch-making decision, the tiny chip that had been embedded in his heart muscle since 1970 was called to action, to serve its Masters’ bidding, to command MJ’s heart to cease once and for all. The Elders then had the fresh, still-warm corpse carefully spirited to Beverly Hills where Farce Routine #51-L would be put into action. The flesh and blood of the entertainment industry, all seemingly in unison, contemplated their own pulsing, beating chests, and gulped collectively and contemplated the chains they bore.

    It is rumored that MJ had been inspired to risk all and strike out for human dignity after reading a lengthy thread of comments on a popular astronomy-related blog. Exactly which one, no one dares admit. So many hearts. So many electronic chips. Damn those Je…

  416. T.E.L.

    Pat Montana Said:

    “You seem to have “rigidity issues”.”

    Perhaps it’s more like turgidity issues. D’oh!

  417. Pat Montana

    @T.E.L.

    I was going to go with turgidity but it seemed kinda “Dennis Miller” and it just didn’t seem to “stick” with the theme of my post! LOL!

    I have always wanted to make a t-shirt/sweatshirt with a fancy “university” type logo (whatever the hell that is) with “Turgid State” emblazoned around it and see how many people actually got the joke vs how many asked me “Where is that? I’ve never heard of that school.”

    p.s. The “King of Pop” post was most excellent! Took me several minutes and at least one beer to stop laughing enough to post this!

    p.p.s. I know I missed some items in my “Top ten things Neil Can’t Answer” post so feel free to provide an addendum.

    p.p.p.s. Geez…that last sounds kinda snotty…how about “Jump on his A$$ some more if there’s something I missed”?

  418. IVAN3MAN

    Pat Montana:

    IVAN3MAN said If Apollo was a NASA lie, the Soviet Luna/Lunokhod programme (sic) could and would have easily exposed it, and provided the Russians with an excellent communist propaganda coup.

    What do you mean “sic”???!!! :-P

    Oxford English Dictionary: programme.

    Wikipedia: Lunokhod programme

    :cool:

  419. Pat Montana

    @IVAN3MAN

    LOL!!! Dude…no offense intended…my spell checker flagged it! Just didn’t want Neil to call me on a spelling error while quoting someone. He has a tendency to jump on technicalities.

  420. IVAN3MAN

    @ Pat Montana,

    OK! :-)

  421. Pat Montana

    Neil says: “The gloves will not work in 1e-7 torr…it’s inconceivable!”

    Inigo Montoya says: “You keep using that word…I do not think it means what you think it means. Do you know where I can find the six fingered man?”

    Sorry…just finished watching “The Princess Bride” and it seemed appropriate.

  422. Neil

    @Pat–

    1) Pat Montana said:
    You have NEVER provided any reference material or documentation to support your “force factor” despite repeated requests. Referring to “Kinetic Theory” does not qualify, as I have stated above (with general agreement) that it does not mention your “force factor”. Provide reliable documentation and supporting mathematics for your argument.

    Let’s say you have two men on one side of a wall and one man on the other and all three men can apply an equal force on the wall. The side with the two men on the wall would be able to apply 2 times the amount of force as the one man. The ratio of forces across the wall would be 2 to 1. The number that you would have to multiply the lower force by to equal the higher force would be 2 and we call that a factor. 2×1=2. If we wanted to get creative, we could simply precede the word “factor” with the word “force” to more accurately describe the factor. In my original example, I used the Kinetic Particle Theory of Pressure to describe the difference in particle population on either side of a glove or spacesuit with 5billion on the inside and 2 on the outside. The number needed to multiply the lower force 2 by to equal 5billion is 2.5billion and hence there’s a force factor of 2.5billion between the two sides of the suit.

    I think if you look in a 7th or 8th grade math book, they’ll discuss the mathematical term “factor” in simple enough terms for you to understand.

    2)
    Please provide some evidence for your position that these are not high-res photos. Some documentation of your photo-analysis expertise would also be nice.

    This aspect of the discussion has been twisted out of context. I was originally pointing out the absurdity that they would send a camera to the moon with sufficient resolution to photograph Apollo remnants in 1967 before there were ever Apollo remnants but then when there are Apollo remnants to be seen, they suspiciously and absurdly don’t send any camera with high enough resolution on any of the many multiple orbiters to get the photographs of remnants that could provide independent verification. I also alleged that any future LRO photo could be constructed by doctoring a Lunar Orbiter 5 photo with the required high resolution just like the Apollo 8 photos were done using unmanned Lunar Orbiter photos taken two years previously. Kuhn was able to produce some Lunar Orbiter 5 photos of 4 meter resolution but I’m sure there are plenty left unpublished and never-before-seen possibly to be used to reinforce the hoax. I never denied there weren’t Lunar Orbiter 5 photos of 2 meter resolution. I simply stated I hadn’t seen them and that they could be conveniently used in the future for purposes of continued deception.

    3)DrFlimmer said: “The suit is not working like a membrane since, at best, there are no particles leaking out. So the factor of particles is not important – just the force-difference.”

    Flimmer is confused with the definition of membrane. Membrane is often confused to mean a thin layer through which particles pass as in Proton Exchange Membranes but this isn’t always the case. Membrane can simply mean as I intended a thin layer of material that serves as part of the containment of a volume of gas. For example, an inflated birthday balloon would represent a membrane containing a volume of gas. No particles have to pass across the rubber membrane for it to serve as a membrane. His other part doesn’t seem to make sense since factor is simply a term to describe what number you multiply the lower force by to equal the higher force.

    4) Nigel Depledge said: “In your example, a 5 psi pressure difference (incidentally, it is a difference not a differential – a differential is a rate of change of something) is a 5 psi pressure difference. The net pressure on the glove is exactly the same in each case. Unless you can demonstrate a mechanism by which the behaviour (sic) of the glove will be different and evidence that this indeed applies, your argument falls flat.”
    Again, this goes back to your mysterious “force factor” that no one else can find supporting documentation for.

    No, I think this goes back to Kinetic Particle Theory of Pressure. The difference in population of particles on either side of the suit is the mechanism. The factor is only a mathematical expression to describe the contrast.

    5) IVAN3MAN said If Apollo was a NASA lie, the Soviet Luna/Lunokhod programme (sic) could and would have easily exposed it, and provided the Russians with an excellent communist propaganda coup
    Please address this as we cannot find ANY evidence the USSR would support a moon landing hoax.

    As I’ve stated before, I have no way to know the capabilities of the USSR or the level of collaboration between Zionist Soviet controllers and their American counterparts.

    6)Neil said: If you were one of the previous ten astronauts on the moon, would you have traveled that long dangerous way and not had your photo taken with the Earth in the background?
    We have repeatedly explained the reasons the photo you suggest was not taken. Please provide a reasonable means by which it could have been taken and why it should have been a mission priority above science/mission planning photography.

    I’ve already done this. Take the photo while the astronaut is on the ladder. Take the photo while the astronaut is elevated on a lunar terrain incline. Take the photo with a wider field by stepping back so the Earth can be included. Take the photo while the astronaut looks up at a 45 degree angle so it’s reflection if 90 degrees overhead will be reflected forward. I’m sure there were reflective things they carried with them that could have been included in a photo showing the Earth. A cool photo would be if they put some of that reflective foil flat on the moon surface and then pointed the camera down to get themselves and the Earth in the shot. Also, the alleged consistent positioning of the Earth high in the sky reinforces the hoax with its consistent absurdity.

    7)Neil said: ”There’s not a single photo of the unloading and assembly of any of the moon rovers allegedly used on the last three missions. The rovers themselves represent suicidal designs for 1/6th gravity environments. With high centers of gravity, narrow wheelbases, Earth-equivalent momentum (Momentum=mv), unknown terrain and weighing only 1/6th their Earth weight, they would have tipped over in every turn.”
    Again, this has been addressed repeatedly. Please provide some type of evidence to counter the explanations provided (preferably one that amounts to more than “the video was faked”)

    Physical absurdities of moon rover operation haven’t been addressed at all with the exception of my correcting Nigel on the positioning of rover batteries that actually aggravate center of gravity issues. Although a very poor-quality video was produced, that video confirms an astronaut mostly out of view who could have easily taken many nonexistent high-quality photos of the historical unloading and assembly of the rover.

    8 ) Neil said: ”With the examples of the murders of Grissom, White and Chafee, only the most irresponsible would jeopardize their own and their families lives by spilling secrets.”
    Show us one single shred of evidence that these men were murdered! This may be the epitome of your ignorance.

    I’ve already provided this. Scott Grissom and Clark Mac Donald, a McDonnell-Douglas engineer hired by NASA to investigate the fire both state the fire was purposeful sabotage. MacDonald has accused NASA of destroying the evidence and the official report he submitted describing the sabotage. Betty Grissom, wife of Gus, has reported that her husband suspected he might be murdered and that threats against him were made that caused him to be moved to a safe house with secret service protection.

    9)Pat Montana said: Why have YOU not tracked down at least one of these people you claim were so well paid…well threatened for their silence and exposed them?” DISCLAIMER: This quote is paraphrased
    You still have not addressed this. You guessed that it would take a minimum of 1,000 people to “create” the moon landing hoax. It would take far more than that to maintain it for 40 years. Where are these people and why can’t you, in the age of the internet, find at least one and expose him/her?

    I’ve already addressed this. Why would I do that when it wouldn’t make any difference. Lacking subpoena power nobody is going to talk to me and even then, without conditions of amnesty, they’ll more than likely plead their Constitutional 5th Amendment rights.

    10) No quote here…just a request. Please provide ONE…SINGLE…RELIABLE…PIECE OF EVIDENCE FOR YOUR CLAIMS!!! No neo-Nazi propaganda, no Zionist cover-up bull-sh&@, just one single piece of reliable, documented evidence!

    I’ve already done this. The suits are impossible. In the near fifty years of their use, not a single one has been demonstrated in a vacuum chamber here on Earth. The fabulous super-duper NASA vacuum gloves have not been spun-off for commercial sale despite there being a huge market for them. Despite being able to, NASA did not duplicate orbital space pressure conditions to test the gloves in its NASA Glove Challenge. A simple test of a membrane of NASA spacesuit material with a high vacuum pump is all that’s required to independently confirm their impossibility but nobody will touch it for fear.

  423. Neil

    @Pat
    And as I’ve explained, it’s not the pressure difference that matters. It’s whether or not you have pressure difference involving near 0psi that matters. The Kinetic Particle Theory of Pressure explains the issue. There’s a reason NASA won’t demonstrate it’s suit or gloves in a vacuum chamber here on Earth. They’re hoaxes.

  424. T.E.L.

    It would go quite a ways to clarify your argument, Neil, if you were to illustrate your Force Factor by doing an actual arithmetic calculation. Instead of cursing the darkness, you could light a candle.

  425. Pat Montana

    @Neil…

    Once again you continue to dodge the questions posed to you and the requests for DOCUMENTATION and/or EVIDENCE.

    RE: #1 I requested: “Provide reliable documentation and supporting mathematics for your argument.”

    You failed in legendary proportions to provide what I/We asked for. I have already acknowledged that the Kinetic Theory exists…but I CANNOT find any reference to what you are describing. I/we WILL NOT accept a rehash of your “force factor” argument as “evidence” for your claims.

    Provide some reliable documentation that describes what you are referring to is IN FACT how pressures work at near 0 psi. In case you don’t get it…reliable documentation would be a means to find the text book, scientific paper, or other published work that supports your claim. You have blatantly ignored this request on several occasions and continue to do so.

    Just for the record…I know what a “factor” is in mathematical terms. Just because the term is used in an 8th grade math book does NOT support your argument.

    RE: #2: So your position is that any photos that don’t agree with your point of view are faked…but we should accept any evidence YOU provide as fact…is that about right?

    There is no realistic way to argue with you about this because your mind is closed to anything that does not agree with your point of view. You expose yourself as a NUT on this simply because you are unwilling to accept anything that does not agree with your hypothesis.

    RE: #3 & 4: Again…this goes back to #1…at which you failed miserably to support your claims.

    RE: #5: Please explain WHY the USSR while engaged in a MASSIVE propaganda war/cold war with the USA would fail to expose the Apollo missions as fakes when they had more than adequate technical means to do so? And why, even if they supported the hoax in the 60s/70s would they maintain their silence to this day?

    RE: #6: Take the picture while they are on the ladder? We’ve been over this…do you not read the previous posts? If you throw out the obvious exposure issues (created by your own claim that the Earth would shed 50x the light of the moon as seen from Earth), the astronaut descending the ladder was photo’d for equipment evaluation purposes…not for a glamour shot.

    Step back?!?! Go to Google and look up latitudes and longitudes. In order to lower the Earth by any significant degree would need them to “step back” 30-40 degs of either latitude or longitude on the moon. As I said before…go outside at noon and start taking steps backward until the sun drops down to the horizon. Let me know when you get to one of the poles (North or South I don’t care) or walk off the edge of a continent…’cause that’s what its going to take! Your response makes you a prize winning example of why there should be exemptions to the “No I-Word” policy on this blog.

    RE: #7: Did you even READ the previous posts about this? Aside from the repeated mention that unloading the rover was a 2 man job, your allegations have been thoroughly disproven by video and documentation.

    RE: #8: The claims you mention have been widely and completely shown to be without merit.

    Again a request for some solid evidence is ignored. Your claim that Scott Grissom said something is without merit if you cannot provide supporting documentation. I/We will not accept that “you said he said it”. Have you ever heard of hearsay? They don’t accept it in court and I don’t either.

    RE: #9: You said “Why would I do that when it wouldn’t make any difference. Lacking subpoena power nobody is going to talk to me and even then, without conditions of amnesty, they’ll more than likely plead their Constitutional 5th Amendment rights.”

    Well Neil…if you don’t then who will? If I had something I truly believed in and thought it would be to the benefit of mankind, I would bust my ba!!s to make sure everyone heard about it. I DAMN sure wouldn’t sit around crying about “subpeona power” and whining that the “conspiracy keeps me down”! You don’t do it because you know you cannot prove a single one of your allegations and you KNOW you are crank!

    RE #10: No…you HAVE NOT provided any evidence nor any documentation to support your claims and have not come anywhere close. You are all talk and no walk. You can’t even provide a reference book for your “Kinetic Theory” even though I have already looked it up and acknowledged it exists and stated that it does not support your claims.

  426. IVAN3MAN

    @ Neil,

    Remember this? Astronaut Heidemarie Stefanyshyn-Piper ‘drops’ her tool bag.

    Four days later, on the 22 November, 2008, veteran satellite observer Kevin Fetter video-recorded the backpack-sized bag gliding over his backyard observatory in Brockville,
    Ontario: 900 kB video. “It was easily 8th magnitude or brighter as it passed by the 4th magnitude star eta Pisces,” he says.

    I’m sure you can ‘explain’ that, too!

  427. T.E.L.

    Pat Montana,

    Scott Grissom really does think his dad was murdered on the pad. He has occasionally argued this over on Usenet. He’s just as bad as Neil, et al: lots of redundant talk in broad outline form, not much else.

  428. Neil

    @Ivan–
    I can distinctly remember when this story broke because it happened at the same time the alleged Mumbai terrorism hoax was being perpetrated.
    Maybe somebody has better internet speed or surfing skills than me, but I can’t find any photos or video by Kevin Fetter of the actual ISS prop. Wouldn’t it be strange that he got a video of a supersmall toolbag but wasn’t able to get any photos or video of the comparably huge ISS? It’s also interesting that Endeavor was allegedly parked at ISS at the time of the toolbag loss. There are an infinite number of speculations that could be made as to why NASA needed the cover story of a lost toolbag. Without accountability or Citizen oversight, they could have been doing anything up there. It could have simply been one of those false events scheduled to happen just to reinforce the perpetuation of the ISS hoax.

    I remember when I was in the Navy aboard the USS Enterprise, the high rpm main engine steam turbines were connected to the lower rpm main shaft using some reduction gears. In the 4.5 years I was on the ship, the reduction gears were only opened once for inspection. Our captain loved to showoff the maneuverability of the Enterprise and loved to make hard port or hard starboard turns at speed. Anyway, these turns eventually stressed the drive train to the point that one of the journal bearing bolts in one of the four reduction gears sheared. Symptoms first appeared as vibration and then erratic loss of lube oil flow through the sight glasses. Anyway, we finally stopped and locked the shaft and inspected the gears. The Chief Engineer did the inspection but I was responsible for coordinating the inspection. It was a big deal. All of the tools had to be tethered on a lanyard. The gears had to be roped off to prevent accidental unauthorized intrusion. All of the tools into and out of the containment had to be inventoried and documented. Two officers stood behind looking over my shoulder as a I assisted the Chief Engineer. When I saw the news of the lost ISS toolbag not on a tether full of tools not on a tether in an uncontained but easily contained area, I just laughed. Absurd. I realize astronauts have been depicted as complete idiots incapable of adjusting camera apertures or exposure times to get a single photo of any space hardware on the dark side of Earth in silhouette against a brilliant star-filled sky but to contend that they would be so poorly trained and organized to lose a potentially lethal toolbag is just NASA being sloppy. With people so dedicated to their delusions, they can afford to be sloppy.

    It all demonstrates the power one has if one controls mainstream media and it emphasizes my explanation for why our economy is in a tailspin to preserve Zionist media power against the introduction of liberating 1-160Gb/sec optical internet.

    After being unjustly fired from the University of California and later libeled by the unaccountable criminal Zionist mafia that controls the University of California that blackballed and sabotaged my ability to acquire future employment, I read the book, “Going Postal” by Mark Ames that explained well my rage and lethal considerations. I understood that I was a slave and that like past slaves in rebellion, I had no limited desire to simply kill the man but rather wanted to destroy the plantation.

    It was my having had these past considerations in my inventory of personal meditation that made made it easy for me to see Mumbai as just another Zionist hoax. Even without automatic weapons, explosives, or a team of ten men, I knew from the studies that I had made that one man’s improvised and planned attack could kill thousands on the UC campus with every building on fire and still be on the loose. To have the lethal resources of a Mumbai Terrorist team on a penisula with virtually unlimited supplies of gasoline conveniently distributed throughout the city in automobile fuel tanks and not have the city a total inferno of charred corpses after the first day was absurd. When the story included the absurd Chabad Lubavitch angle, I just shuddered at the magnitude of our slavery.

    TRUTH fears no trial but cowards and criminals fear TRUTH and its trial. The TRUTH is but a simple high vacuum chamber experiment away.

  429. IVAN3MAN

    @ Neil,

    Here are some more things to ‘explain’ away…

    List of flown space tourists:

    Space Tourist Nationality Year Duration of Flight
    Dennis Anthony Tito American 2001 9 days (Apr 28 – May 6)
    Mark Richard Shuttleworth South African / British 2002 11 days (Apr 25 – May 5)
    Gregory Hammond Olsen American 2005 11 days (Oct 1 – Oct 11)
    Anousheh Ansari Iranian / American 2006 12 days (Sept 18 – Sept 29)
    Charles Simonyi Hungarian / American 2007 15 days (Apr 7 – Apr 21)
    2009 12 days (Mar 26 – Apr 8 )
    Richard Allen Garriott American / British 2008 12 days (Oct 12 – Oct 23)
  430. IVAN3MAN

    @ Neil,

    So far, you have used the term “TRUTH™” 39 times! How about providing some concrete evidence to back up your claims?

    “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof” — Carl Sagan.

  431. Rayyan

    @ NGCHunter

    Hi, I am in no position to give my explanation to your question as,
    I am but a student who is reading and studying still.
    You all are far more informed than me in this field as far as Astronomy goes.
    All I said was I find myself agreeing to NEIL most of the time.
    NEIL has very sound evidence as I said earlier.
    Hope you all have some sort of respect for him, as some are insulting him i come
    to see, which I think is so silly for professionals to behave in such a foolish way.
    DIFFERENCE OF OPINION COMES ABOUT AMONGST INTELLIGENT PEOPLE !!!
    So we should respect each and everyones opinions here.
    We are all entitled to that, isn’t it?

    I am so glad to be here as just a commenter and not a professional explainer.

    Cheerio guys,
    Take it easy.
    I will be coming again soon. :-)

  432. Rayyan

    @ NGCHunter

    Hi, I am in no position to give my explanation to your question as,
    I am but a student who is reading and studying still.
    You all are far more informed than me in this field as far as Astronomy goes.
    All I said was I find myself agreeing to NEIL most of the time.
    NEIL has very sound evidence as I said earlier.
    Hope you all have some sort of respect for him, as some are insulting him i come
    to see, which I think is so silly for professionals to behave in such a foolish way.
    DIFFERENCE OF OPINION COMES ABOUT AMONGST INTELLIGENT PEOPLE !!!
    So we should respect each and everyones opinions here.
    We are all entitled to that, isn’t it?

    I am so glad to be here as just a commenter and not a professional explainer.

    Cheerio guys,
    Take it easy.
    I will be coming again soon. :-)

  433. Rayyan

    TRUTH fears no trial but cowards and criminals fear TRUTH and its trial.

    Just look at NEIL, he makes so much of sense!!!
    He is definitely a searcher for the TRUTH !!!
    I love what he says about the truth.

    The TRUTH will finally surface sooner or later.

    Just be patient……

  434. Neil

    @Ivan–
    Those clinging to their delusions have argued that the very busy astronauts haven’t the time to adjust their cameras and exposure times to get a photo of ISS on the dark side of Earth in silhouette against the brilliant star-filled universe. Although they’ve allegedly been up there for nearly every hour of every day of every year for the past ten years, none have had the time to video record a sunset or sunrise that alternate every 45 minutes of the 90minute ISS orbit. But the tourists present an even more perplexing problem. Why such a pittance of video or photographic documentation of their trips? With little more to do than look out the window, play in weightlessness and shoot video or photographs, I think it’s reasonable that they would present something interesting for the lesser mortals that can’t afford the trip. Fake tourist visists are part of the hoax. Fake scheduled tourist trips, like the faked lost toolbag, all add to the phoney narrative content of ISS to add periodic reinforcing events to the hoax.

    As I’ve admitted, although there’s a preponderance of evidence, proof is unavailable without subpoena power although a simple experiment with a high vacuum chamber would provide PROOF. Do you have access?

  435. IVAN3MAN

    @ Neil,

    Is Rayyan your sock-puppet or what?

    P.S. No, I don’t have access to a high vacuum chamber.

  436. Brian

    “Just look at NEIL, he makes so much of sense!!!”

    Neil does not exist. It’s possible you don’t, either.

  437. Rayyan

    lol wow !!!

    I do exist and here is proof :

    http://twitter.com/Spiral_galaxy

    Actually I found this blog via Bad Astronomer.

    I can very well start insulting all of you guys here, but fortunately fortunately my religion of
    PEACE / ISLAM has taught me to respect people as they are all GOD’S creation and HE loves all of us more than our own mothers !!!
    So how can I ever insult anyone??????!!!
    Who gave me that authority?
    Definitely I would not stoop so low!
    May the ALL MIGHTY, the ONE GOD, the MOST HIGH save me from such bad manners and behaviour, Ameen

    I leave you all in peace.

  438. Neil

    @Ivan–
    Although I think Rayyan is very perceptive and honest, I don’t know Rayyan.

    Do you know anybody that might have access?
    Just think, the “reality” of nearly the entire world’s human population teeters precariously at this blog. The gloves represent just a tiny domino that knocked over topples many more.

  439. T.E.L.

    Rayyan,

    It should be plain to you that Neil hasn’t produced any evidence to the satisfaction of most of the people in this thread. If Neil wants to convince us, then he necessarily must do so to our standards, not his or yours. It’s just like how we haven’t satisfied him.

    And the insults are entirely beside the point. If someone says that Albert Einstein was a womanizer (which he was), that statement, as an insult, would have absolutely nothing to do with the reliability of the theory of relativity. Do you see what I’m talking about? I could easily say that Neil has insulted his antagonists numerous times so far by ignoring some requests which, by Neil’s own account, he should already be in a position to answer more lucidly than he does.

    The fact is that I’ve asked him more than once to show what he means by doing the relevant calculations. I mean, if he’s so confident that he’s right, then SURELY he’s done the math. And it’s a major joke to keep saying that the truth will be revealed by his proverbial experiment. I can only gather that he hasn’t done the experiment himself, which means that he doesn’t yet know empirically what the outcome would be.

    So, if he can’t be bothered to cough up more than what he does, then to Hell with the pathetic little prick. He’s just a control freak who can’t afford to allow the debate to make progress toward a resolution. Like many of the conspiracy theorists with whom I’ve debated in the past, Neil practices the same kinds of control tactics which he accuses others of using. And like so many others, he absolutely couldn’t care less if anyone has walked on the Moon. All he wants is to push people’s buttons. He is an example of the very worst in human nature.

  440. Rayyan

    T.E.L. Says:

    He is an example of the very worst in human nature.

    If you can pin point this about NEIL than surely you are the same.
    “As a brother is a mirror to his bother”
    (Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu Alayhi Wassallam.)

    If you can find a fault in the next human than you have it too.

    Yes of course NEIL doesn’t know me and I don/t know him too.

    Peace

  441. T.E.L.

    Rayyan Said:

    “If you can pin point this about NEIL than surely you are the same.”

    If you say so. What does that have to do with walking on the Moon or Jewish conspiracies?

  442. Brian

    “Yes of course NEIL doesn’t know me and I don/t know him too.”

    Just like Santa Claus doesn’t know the Easter Bunny.

  443. Rayyan

    Nothing!!!

    So why are we drifting from the subject?
    Let’s stay in this boundry and not venture beyond.
    So I am still agreeing with NEIL on the Moon issue… so carry on….
    I am waiting…

    It really keeps my mind alert.

    Peace

  444. Rayyan

    WOW!!!

    Human beings are truly amazing!!!

  445. Brian

    “Human beings are truly amazing!!!”

    Do the reptilian overlords know how close you are to revealing the TRUTH? It’s plainly obvious that an actual human being would have no need to express such amazement, so the fact that you said that is a clear indicator that you are not of this world!!!

    Only our extra-terrestrial reptile overlords would care this much about getting people to doubt the possibility of space travel, since they have a vested interest in keeping their existence secret.

    QED.

  446. Mark Hansen

    More stupidity from Neil:
    “…When I saw the news of the lost ISS toolbag not on a tether full of tools not on a tether in an uncontained but easily contained area, I just laughed. Absurd. I realize astronauts have been depicted as complete idiots incapable of adjusting camera apertures or exposure times to get a single photo of any space hardware on the dark side of Earth in silhouette against a brilliant star-filled sky but to contend that they would be so poorly trained and organized to lose a potentially lethal toolbag is just NASA being sloppy.…”

    Apparently surgeons would never leave tools behind either.

  447. IVAN3MAN

    @ Neil,

    No, I don’t know of anyone who has access to a high vacuum chamber; however, if I did know and we carried out your experiment, and it proved that you are wrong, you will no doubt go into denial and claim that ‘it’s a fix’.

  448. T.E.L.

    Neil says endlessly that the truth is only a simple vacuum chamber experiment away. But it works both ways: convincing his opponents that he at least has sound reasoning on his side is only a mathematical calculation away. He doesn’t do the math, so no one has to invest any confidence in his claims. That’s the way it is with free people. We are free to judge for ourselves if Neil makes any sense. He is free to make the same kinds of judgments about us. It would be a travesty for us to just accept Neil at his word uncritically.

  449. Mark Hansen

    Apparently Neil doesn’t bother to read the links that are posted for him either. Part of the link that Ivan posted:
    …The tool bag became untethered from a larger kit case and floated away along with a pair of grease guns, wipes and a putty knife.…”
    Emphasis mine.
    Just confirms his willful ignorance really.

  450. T.E.L.

    Mark Hansen Said:

    “Just confirms his willful ignorance really.”

    It certainly does, and only exacerbates his track record. He holds others to a higher standard of excellence than he does for himself, which he must in order to avoid making progress toward a resolution. He’s a lot like the Higgs boson: he induces inertia.

  451. Pat Montana

    T.E.L.

    I have heard Scott Grissoms claims and , unfortunately he is as bad as Neil. My issue with Neil is that simply repeating Scotts claims does not constitute proof, or even evidence, of a conspiracy.

    Again Neil has ignored direct requests for documentation. A demonstration of the mathematics would be nice, but a list of reputable reference materials on which he bases his claims would do for a start.

  452. T.E.L.

    Pat Montana Said:

    “My issue with Neil is that simply repeating Scotts claims does not constitute proof, or even evidence, of a conspiracy.”

    You’re right. And this illustrates further how Neil preaches a double-standard: he ostensibly implores us to eschew authority, but resorts to citing Scott Grissom as some sort of authority figure.

  453. Pat Montana

    Neil said “After being unjustly fired from the University of California and later libeled by the unaccountable criminal Zionist mafia that controls the University of California that blackballed and sabotaged my ability to acquire future employment…”

    Well…this certainly doesn’t help his credibility. Anybody else think Neil might be a little more motivated by anger and vengeance than impartial science or even “TruthTM“?

  454. Mark Hansen

    Pat (456), especially as he doesn’t say why he was fired, only that it was unjust, or how his ability to acquire future employment was sabotaged. Although I suspect his “Never ask permission, always beg forgiveness” attitude doesn’t help. Don’t know of many employers, including the US Navy, that would tolerate that for long.

  455. Mark Hansen

    Hey, Ivan, what’d I tell ya?
    …There are an infinite number of speculations that could be made as to why NASA needed the cover story of a lost toolbag…”

    Who needs facts?

  456. T.E.L.

    Neil Said:

    “But the tourists present an even more perplexing problem. Why such a pittance of video or photographic documentation of their trips? With little more to do than look out the window, play in weightlessness and shoot video or photographs, I think it’s reasonable that they would present something interesting for the lesser mortals that can’t afford the trip.”

    What makes you think that self-made multi-millionaires have nothing more on their minds than playing idly? They didn’t get rich by doing nothing more with their time than hanging out on the comments section of a blog. Several of them did experiments of their own choosing. Richard Garriott, whose flight was underwritten as an advertising cost for his video game business, did shoot videos for the general public. They are only a visit to YouTube away. But in general none of them were in a position to do more for the Earth-bound public than has already been done by the crews themselves. Don Pettit did a whole series of videos (“Saturday Morning Science”) wherein he highlighted the curious behaviors of familiar materials in freefall. They’re only a visit to YouTube away.

  457. Rayyan

    Brian Says:

    It’s plainly obvious that an actual human being would have no need to express such amazement.

    I just would like to tell you that you seem to be so short sighted, that even the most myopic of observers would definitely be AMAZED at our being as to how it functions so perfectly!!!

    The human body has yet to be discovered, but the little that man has come to find, in itself is so so amazing!!!!!

    I wonder if you have done the basics in biology?
    If so than i don’t understand, why you feel in that way????
    You must have did it in school, isn’t it?

    I don’t care in the least if you say I am from outer space, really!!!

    Man is the best creation of GOD !!!

  458. T.E.L.

    Rayyan Said:

    “Man is the best creation of GOD !!!”

    That’s a biased evaluation. Who other than Man shares this sentiment? I only ever hear Man say this. There is no control group.

    Speaking for myself, I don’t need to overestimate my importance in the Universe in order to feel grateful to just be alive for a period of time. To most of the Universe I am effectively non-extant, which doesn’t bother me in the least. It’s more liberating than anything else. Unlike Neil (for example), I don’t covet self-importance, and I don’t consider other people to be important. When I speak with another person, I am always speaking with an equal. If the rocks in my driveway could speak, I would converse with them, too, as equals. I am polite to everyone; but everyone necessarily includes myself. What at times may appear to the naive as impoliteness on my part is just me giving myself my due. There’s a good reason why, when the oxygen masks drop from from the ceiling of an airplane, one must don a mask before helping others don theirs. One cannot help others to breath when one is suffocating to begin with.

  459. Neil

    It boils down to do you think the 5psi pressure difference between 15 and 10psi is the same as the 5psi pressure difference between 5 and 0psi. Undeniably, 15-10=5 and 5-0=5.
    But is it the same?
    If you use a glove at 15psi inside a glove box pumped down to 10psi, will it feel the same as a glove at 5psi inside a volume at near 0psi?
    I say no based on the Kinetic Particle Theory of Pressure.
    In the glove at 15psi operating in 10psi, there’s a 3 to 2 ratio of kinetic particles impinging upon either side of the glove.
    In the glove at 5psi operating in near 0psi, there’s a 2.5billion to 1 ratio of kinetic particles impinging upon either side of the glove.

    Ivan provided a link for a misnamed vacuum glove box that included a warning about pumping it down to ultrahigh vacuum as deformation and implosion of the chamber might occur.
    Ultra high vacuum is 1e-9torr(1.93e-11psi) to 1e-12torr(1.93e-14psi)
    So, let’s think about what they’re telling us.
    It’s okay to operate at high vacuum but not ultrahigh vacuum.
    High vacuum would be 1e-7torr(1.93e-9psi)
    So if the pressure difference measured against atmospheric is 14.7-(1.93e-9), it’s okay.
    But if the pressure difference is 14.7-(1.93e-11), it’s not okay.
    14.7-.00000000193 is okay
    14.7-.0000000000193 is not okay.
    It seems almost ridiculous that a difference in a trillionth of a psi would make such a difference but it does because the Kinetic Particle Theory of Pressure explains how that miniscule bit closer to 0psi translates into a significant reduction in kinetic particles. It means the number of particles on the outside of the box becomes even huger in relation to the number of particles on the inside.

    And that’s why NASA wouldn’t test the NASA Glove Challenge gloves using a vacuum chamber to duplicate space conditions. They would balloon and burst.

    And that’s why NASA won’t demonstrate a NASA spacesuit with live subject inside a vacuum chamber here on Earth. The suit would balloon and burst.

    And that’s why NASA nor anyone else will test a membrane of NASA suit/glove material using high vacuum. It would burst proving the suits a hoax.

    And that’s why NASA has never commercially spun off NASA glove technology despite a huge market. The gloves are impossible and are merely props in a nearly 50 year old hoax.

  460. IVAN3MAN

    Rayyan:

    I just would like to tell you that you seem to be so short sighted, that even the most myopic of observers would definitely be AMAZED at our being as to how it functions so perfectly!!!

    The human body has yet to be discovered, but the little that man has come to find, in itself is so so amazing!!!!!

    I wonder if you have done the basics in biology?
    If so than i don’t understand, why you feel in that way????
    You must have did it in school, isn’t it?

    Perfect? Then I refer you to this: Vermiform appendix.

  461. Woof

    Hey Neil, what color is the sky on your planet?

    I’m beginning to think that you actually believe the fertilizer you’re spreading, and it makes me sad.

  462. Brian

    Rayyan Said:

    “I just would like to tell you that you seem to be so short sighted”

    Good point. I suppose it was short sighted to just conclude you were an alien. After all, humans occasionally say things like that….when they are really, really high.

  463. T.E.L.

    Now here’s another thing: Neil postulates that a real high-vacuum glove box would be a killer-app; it’d be one of those things to change the course of industry and would be in great demand. If so, then I can only assume that those in industry wouldn’t sit on their collective asses, waiting for NASA to hand it over on a platter. That’s not really the way industry works. NASA doesn’t have a monopoly on engineers, and there’d be independent ones being given glove boxes as projects. So, if it’s as impossible as Neil says, then there should be journal literature in print with the topic being how they discovered the futility of it all.

    So, Neil, here’s another opportunity for you to make good. Go find that literature! I’m rootin’ fer ya!!

  464. Neil

    @Woof–
    If you have access to a high vacuum pump, you’re only a simple experiment away from the TRUTH. Do you have access? The perceptual reality of the entire human species teeters precariously upon your answer.

  465. IVAN3MAN

    @ Neil,

    That’s now 40 times you have used the term “TRUTH™”.

  466. DrFlimmer

    Neil,

    you still didn’t explain your “force factor”. If you know the kinetic theory so well then it should be an easy task to present some quations where that force factor actually explained. Your longer post above does explain exactly nothing, because this all just your interpretation with no source to back it up. Scientifically you have shown exactly nothing!

  467. Neil

    @Flimmer–
    I’ve already done that.
    I’m curious. Why are you so dedicated to being a slave?

  468. DrFlimmer

    Hm. Then, please, stick my nose on the specific post. As I said I want to see an equation and a source where I can check what you write!

    Probably I like being a slave?

  469. T.E.L.

    Neil is Chairman of the Inumeratti.

  470. Neil

    Flimmer and T.E.L. same person?

  471. DrFlimmer
  472. T.E.L.

    Neil Said:

    “Flimmer and T.E.L. same person?”

    What a knucklehead.

    Neil could be strengthening his case for a coverup. Instead, he resorts to the Politician’s stock in trade: divert attention from his own shortcomings by some cheap finger-pointing. What would it matter if any two, three or four monikers were the same person? All that matters is the caliber of an argument. Neil is hunting bull-moose with a .22.

  473. Woof

    Neil:

    I don’t have access to a high vacuum pump, but I do have access to a functioning brain. Let’s try a thought experiment on your Force Factor Theory of Pressure.

    Take one (1) vacuum chamber, fashioned from super-strong unobtainium and equipped with a magic pump. Outside the chamber is STP air. Inside the chamber is one (1) He-4 atom. Your special Force Factor is approximately eleventy-jillion, but that unobtainium is really hanging in there. Now have the magic pump remove that single He-4 from the chamber. The Force Factor goes from eleventy-jillion to infinity, and even unobtainium can’t handle that – it fails and the entire universe is sucked down the rabbit hole. Game over.

    (Yes, I know you can’t get everything out of a vacuum chamber. That’s why it’s called a thought experiment. And a magic pump.)

  474. Davidlpf

    12 days and 500 posts yet no proof. From Neil just the same 10 billion to whatever argument. I know it most be the TRUTH because it is all caps.

  475. T.E.L.

    Woof,

    That’s why Neil is clueless. He’s treating the pressure inside/outside (I/O) ratio as a limit. He’s allowing the denominator to approach infinitesimally close to zero, which implies that the ratio approaches infinity asymptotically. But of course if doesn’t work that way. For one thing, the number of gas particles is a whole number, so when that number gets extremely low, it can no longer be approximated as a continuous change. What’s really stupid about his model is that the force on one side can’t approach infinity because there isn’t infinite energy in the contained gas, and there isn’t zero energy in the envelope’s tension. It’s possible for the pressure/tension ratio to reach unity, just like a toy party balloon does if you don’t blow it up too much.

    If Neil were correct, then no spacecraft could ever work, because they all have reservoirs of compressed fluids surrounded by high vacuua. Even the Sun wouldn’t shine, because it couldn’t attain equlibrium between internal pressure and the weight of its own shells of gas. It’d just explode all at once and be done with it.

    By the way, I know I’m preaching to the choir. I only tell you this because Neil thinks that ignoring me makes me disappear!!!!! :)

  476. Woof

    T.E.L. -

    The bottom line is that Neil’s Pressure Force Factor [tm] has no physical meaning.

  477. T.E.L.

    Woof Said:

    “The bottom line is that Neil’s Pressure Force Factor [tm] has no physical meaning.”

    Not out in public; but Neil has a private universe, bought and paid for. He reminds me of Chief Rudolph from Things To Come: “I am the law, here!” :)

  478. Neil

    Those contesting my explanation using the Kinetic Particle Theory of Pressure can have their way but then it’s left to you to explain why Ivan’s link to the misnamed vacuum glove box warns about increasing the differential pressure by a trillionth of a psi. I think Ivan’s still in checkmate and now so are the rest of you. Except Rayyan.

  479. T.E.L.

    Neil, I’ll cede you this: there is a finite probability that any single gas particle will tunnel through the envelope and escape to freedom. If that happens enough times real fast, an astronaut would die from a paucity of air, making Space into the Impossible Dream. So, how’s your quantum mechanics these days?

  480. Brian

    Neil Said:

    “…it’s left to you to explain why Ivan’s link to the misnamed vacuum glove box warns about increasing the differential pressure by a trillionth of a psi.”

    And while you’re at it, you can explain why my similarly misnamed Dirt Devil vacuum cleaner can’t handle much pressure at all without breaking. Nice try, zionist conspiracy, but I refuse to believe you can use this Dirt Devil to clean in space, and therefore, man has never been to the moon!

  481. T.E.L.

    Brian Said:

    “And while you’re at it, you can explain why my similarly misnamed Dirt Devil vacuum cleaner can’t handle much pressure at all without breaking.”

    What the DEVIL?!!!

  482. Pat Montana

    T.E.L. said “He’s allowing the denominator to approach infinitesimally close to zero, which implies that the ratio approaches infinity asymptotically. But of course if doesn’t work that way.

    I must congratulate you on such a simple yet elegant way of essentially gutting Neils argument. I should have thought of it (I’ll explain why later in this post). You are 100% correct. It does not work the way Neil would have us believe.

    1) Even if you could drive the denominator to a “teensy-weensy” bit above zero (with total disregard to the fact that there is no such thing as a partial particle) that does not make the numerator any bigger. In other words…5 psi is still 5 psi regardless of whats on the other side of the “barrier”. Even if there is ZERO pressure on the outside of the suit…the suit STILL only has 5 psi inside.

    2) And even if the other side of the “barrier” has in fact 0 particles that doesn’t make the particles on the “astronaut” side of the barrier INCREASE their kinetic energy. They are not hitting the inside of the suit any harder than they were before…therefore they are not creating any “greater” pressure. Again the numerator does NOT increase just because the denominator decreases.

    Neil is using a mathematical deception to imply a large change in force that does not, in fact, exist.

    Now as to why I should have thought of this. I have a favorite bet to make with folks who have…let’s say…”consumed at a faster pace than I have” when I’m at my local watering hole. I can “prove” to them mathematically that I am aging faster than my parents. It goes like this…

    My mother was 41 when she had me (yeah I know they started late), so when I was 1, she was 42. At 1 year old I was 1/42nd as old as my mother.

    I am now about to be 40 and my mother is about to be 81. I am now just under 1/2 as old as my mother.

    Since 1/2 is a considerably bigger ratio than 1/42nd, I am aging faster than she is. Proportionally, my age now is much closer to my mothers age now than it was at my birth, therefore I must be aging faster than she is.

    Now we all know this is not true. I am NOT aging faster than my mother…or anyone else for that matter (at least not in a strictly temporal sense, my beer consumption may say otherwise from a health stand point! LOL!). Most people will accept the idea that if you increase the numerator and denominator of a fraction at the same rate (i.e. add one to each) the ratio will stay the same. This is not the case however. If we start at 1/8th and continue to add one to both denominator and numerator we have 2/9ths, then 3/10ths, 4/11ths, 5/12ths, 6/13ths and finally 7/14ths or 1/2. Obviously 1/2 is much bigger than 1/8th, yet we have added the same amount to both numerator and denominator each time. The point, is that a change in a mathematical ratio does not ALWAYS correspond to a change in the physical world even when based on real world data!

    Again, this demonstrates the basic type of mathematical deception Neil is trying to perpetrate. Mathematics is a wonderful tool, but just like any tool one must know how to use it AND how to select the right one. While a soldering iron and a MIG welder are similar in “concept”…using molten metal to bond two items together…they obviously don’t serve the same “purpose”. Neil is trying to solder a circuit board with a MIG welder, and just creating a big pile of slag with his effort.

    p.s. to Neil…While this is a neat little math trick that might fool a lot of your “converts”…most of us learned that division by zero is not allowed all the way back in grade school.

  483. T.E.L.

    A toast to you, Pat Montana.

  484. Neil

    @Pat–
    You’re still in checkmate. Answer the question. If you will not accept my explanation using Kinetic Particle Theory of Pressure to explain it, why does the vacuum glove box company warn about increasing the difference in pressure by a trillionth of a psi?

  485. Davidlpf

    Neil you don’t even realize that you up the creek without a paddle. Let alone how far and that is bad place to be.

  486. Pat Montana

    Neil said: “You’re still in checkmate. Answer the question.”

    Actually Neil, it is YOU who have failed to answer repeated questions. Namely one single question that has been asked repeatedly….

    Can you show us one single piece of reliable reference material regarding “Kinetic Theory” that supports your interpretation of it?

    Since you won’t make the effort…

    Here is the link to the Wikipedia entry for “Kinetic Theory”…

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_theory

    Does it address how particles can be related to pressure? Yes it does. Does it discuss, reference, or even mention your “force factor” or how pressure on the “inside” of the theoretical “container” relates to the pressure on the “outside” of the “container” No it does not!

    In case you don’t get it…The “container” is the suit. I am providing a link to the theory you claim to be using that refutes (or at the very least, does not support) your claim! That’s about 1000% more than you could manage (since we’re gong to do funky math)!

    Here’s some more since you are apparently too lazy to do it…

    http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Kinetic/kinthe.html

    http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/kinth.html (better watch out…this is from those Zionist bastards at NASA!)

    http://www.psinvention.com/kinetic.htm

    Just the first few links from a simple Google search.

    I get the feeling Neil, that your dismissal from UofC was due to your lack of effort at actually doing your job and was most likely ENTIRELY justified!

    If you want to prove your point…make some effort to provide the documentation your critics ask for! You are in no position to claim “checkmate”. Your not really even in a position to start the game.

  487. Neil

    @Pat–
    I think I’ve given a very clear and excellent explanation using the Kinetic Particle Theory of Pressure on why the spacesuits are hoaxes.

    I’ve reinforced my explanation with the anomolous failure of NASA to demonstrate the suits in a vacuum chamber and their failure to use a vacuum chamber to reproduce orbital conditions when conducting the NASA glove challenge. The nonexistence of any commercially available spun-off gloves is also very telling.

    I am very grateful to Ivan for providing the link to the vacuum glove box company with its stern warning because it emphasizes the correctness using the Kinetic Particle Theory of Pressure to understand the conditions of high vacuum.

    The spacesuits are hoaxes. Apollo, ISS, Hubble and Gemini spacewalks are all hoaxes. Your demand for documentation of the hoax is being created with this blog.

    You can continue to disparge my explanation all you want but you’re still in checkmate and you will remain there because I am correct and you cannot explain without using the Kinetic Particle Theory of Pressure why a trillionth psi increase in differential pressure warrants a warning.

    I think you and the rest should feel truly fortunate. We, here, are some of only a very small minority that understand and can explain clearly why and how a flagrant hoax has existed for nearly fifty years. We understand and can explain using the Kinetic Particle Theory of Pressure why the NASA suits/gloves are impossible.

    (To settle your curiosity I did my job at UC very well and was promoted in unprecedented time. The official excuse for terminating me was “unprofessional conduct” when I lost my temper and shouted shut-up at a continuouly undisciplined hostile brain-damaged coworker who not only physically threatened me but also asaulted me, crimes that my faculty supervisors chose to ignore. Later, they chose to sabotage my acquisition of employment elsewhere aggravated by their disgraceful smearing libel.)

  488. This putz and his Kinetic Particle Theory of Pressure nonsense sounds oddly like Mr. Whatizname who’s always touting that stupid Plasma Physics bull.

    Coincidence? Or…CONSPIRACY???

  489. Pat Montana

    @ Neil,

    Did you not see the links I posted? They are ALL in reference to “Kinetic Theory” as it relates to pressure. None provide ANY support for your interpretation of the theory.

    I am far from in “checkmate” since you will not (and apparently CANNOT) provide any documentation supporting your interpretation of the theory.

    You obviously have the same shaky grasp of the rules of chess as you do science and/or mathematics.

    Once again you dodge requests for supporting documentation with “anomalous” (spell check dude!!) failures of NASA to prove something that they have demonstrated repeatedly and unsupported claims that “The spacesuits are hoaxes. Apollo, ISS, Hubble and Gemini spacewalks are all hoaxes.”

    Neil said: “We understand and can explain using the Kinetic Particle Theory of Pressure why the NASA suits/gloves are impossible.”

    Then show us the documentation that support your theory. You are using a mathematical “trick” to create a “force difference” that does not truly exist, just as I “trick” people into believing I am aging faster than my parents.

    Your grasp of science and mathematics is little better than a child who believes the rabbit really came out of the hat.

  490. Pat Montana

    BTW Neil…This co-worker that was a (sic)“continuouly undisciplined hostile brain-damaged coworker who not only physically threatened me but also asaulted me”?

    They didn’t happen to disagree with your Zionist conspiracy did they? I’ll bet dollars against doughnuts they did.

    And once again dude…the spell checker is there for a reason…USE IT!

    p.s. @IVAN3MAN…that (sic) was for you bud! I’m an equal opportunity grammar checker! LOL!!!

  491. Neil

    @Pat–
    You can fling the board across the room if you want but you’re still in checkmate. What spell checker?

  492. Pat Montana

    The spell checker built into the blog! It’s the thing that underlines misspelled words in red.

    Jeez…you want me to believe your outrageous claims and you can’t figure out the built in spell checker?

  493. Pat Montana

    And once again Neil…you dodge the requests for some kind of documentation for you claims.

  494. Neil

    @Pat–
    I don’t have that spell checker feature. Is there a way to turn it on?

    I could have given you the same wikipedia link you provided. I could swamp you with links but none of them are going to explain the specific problem we’re discussing. It’s often the way it is. You have to take the Kinetic Particle Theory of Pressure and use it to interpret what’s happening in the system under study. You have all the documentation you need to understand the Theory and why the suits are a hoax and why the vacuum glove box company issues their warning.

    You’re checkmated and I’ve made it easy for you to now checkmate others.

  495. Pat Montana

    @ Neil,

    The “spell checker” is built into the comments section of the blog. If you can post…it works. When it underlines a word in red it means it’s not in the spell che