I sometimes think that comedians wield more skeptical leverage than bloggers. Case in point: Dara O’Brian. (NSFW language)
I love hearing people laugh at silliness. Sometimes it really is the best medicine.
Tip o’ the 30C nitrous oxide to Steve Lavoie.
If you went to BadAstronomy.com and found yourself here, never fear: the BA Blog has moved to its new home at Discover Blogs. The original BA site (with the Moon Hoax debunking and all that) is still online, too.
Phil Plait, the creator of Bad Astronomy, is an astronomer, lecturer, and author. After ten years working on Hubble Space Telescope and six more working on astronomy education, he struck out on his own as a writer. He has written two books, dozens of magazine articles, and 12 bazillion blog articles. He is a skeptic, and fights misuses of science as well as praising the wonder of real science.
Contact me: The Bad Astronomer "at" gmail "dot" com
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July 30th, 2009 at 11:18 am
along with this should be posted this great beat poem by Tim Minchin called “Storm”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB_htqDCP-s
it’s 9 minutes but it is sooooooo good
July 30th, 2009 at 11:24 am
Excellent!!!
’tis often true, comedians have the upper hand when it comes to pointing out silliness. That is, after all, their job.
I also recall a concert by Robin Williams where he held up a picture of Albert Einstein, pointed at Alberts eyes and said” Look! All the lights are on and everybody is at home,,,”. Robin is one of the brighter people on this old earth,,,
But these are stand up, often improv, comics and that takes a really quick mind. Slap stick comedians like Jim Carey seem no brighter than the run of the mill human. They just have egos big enough to allow them to get on stage and make an idiot of themselves.
,,which is consistent with Careys other passion, Jenny,,,
Thanks for the laugh connect. It starts my day off in a fine manner.
GAry 7
PS: What does 30C mean?
July 30th, 2009 at 11:44 am
Dara O’Briain (note the extra I) has a Master’s degree in theoretical physics, and then he went on to become a comedian. Just goes to show how life can throw some curve balls.
July 30th, 2009 at 11:49 am
30c is an indication of dilution.
1x is a 1:10 dilution
2x is a 1:100 dilution
1C is a 1:100 dilution
2c is a 1:10000 dilution
12C: no more molecules of starting material anymore
30C? there isn’t enough water on the planet to make it without reuse.
July 30th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
“Science doesn’t know everything? Well science KNOWS it doesn’t know everything… otherwise it’d stop.” Friggin’ awesome!
July 30th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
I agree wholeheartedly that humor is appropriate for nutters.
First, counter their claims with evidence-supported fact. Second, give them an opportunity to counter with their own evidence-supported fact. When that fails to materialize (which it will), then, in my humble opinion, they are valid targets for satire and outright mockery.
P.S. I love the bit about putting ‘em in the sack. “Get in the freakin’ sack!” Haw haw!
July 30th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Brilliant. Abso-frakkin’ brilliant!
Next question: when’s he going to be in Boston? I will gladly go to see him!
July 30th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
Guysmiley beat me to it.
“…otherwise it’d stop.”
What a wonderful line.
July 30th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
3. Darren Landrum Says:
Dara O’Briain has a Master’s degree in theoretical physics, and then he went on to become a comedian. Just goes to show how life can throw some curve balls.
Q:What does a zombie physicist say?
A: Branes!
/duck/cover
I have to admit, I created a playlist of his stuff, I always appreciate intelligent humor. Same reason I have several VHS tapes (which I should turn into DVDs) of George Carlin.
LINK:
The Huffington Post’s woomeisters are attacked in a current article in Salon:
http://www.salon.com/env/vital_signs/2009/07/30/huffington_post/
J/P=?
July 30th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
C = 100 or 10 raised to the power of 2 or 10^2
30C is C raised to the power of 30 or 100 raised to the power of 10^30
When you raise one power of 10 to another power of 10 you multiply the exponents which gives you 10^(2*30) which is a 1 with 60 zeros after it.
The mass of the earth is about 6*10^24 kg which would be 6*10^27 grams
Avagadro’s number essentially says that it will take 6*10^23 atoms of hydrogen to make up one gram of hydrogen. So to get enough hydrogen atoms to equal the mass of the earth we would need roughly 1.2*10^51 atoms which still isn’t 30C. Water is H2O not just H but the order of magnitude is about the same.
So essentially, the Homeopath is telling you that a 60C solution had ONE ATOM of the active ingredient dilluted into an amount of water greater than the mass of the earth and that by some magical “water memory” it will help cure you of whatever symptom.
But it gets better. Some homeopaths will tell you that they’ve dilluted the active ingredient to 1024C or 10^2048. A mass of water with that many molecules would be a drop of water with a diameter roughly the size of the orbit of pluto into which they have dropped a SINGLE ATOM of the active ingredient.
And they will tell you that the more dilluted it is, the more powerful it is.
What a bunch of wankers.
July 30th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
“I love hearing people laugh at silliness. Sometimes it really is the best medicine.”
I just read that Americans spend $34 billion annually on “complementary and alternative medicine”. They would’ve been better off buying tickets to see this guy.
July 30th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
That guy is hilarious; make sure you all check out his other stuff on YouTube.
July 30th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
Great stuff…
July 30th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
Dara O’Brian – fekkin’ brelliant!!
July 30th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Great stuff. It’s an important message (i.e. science has better answers than the ones you make up at home) and it needs as much coverage as it can get.
Stuff like this will never convince the true believers, of course, but it does help ordinary folk realize how dumb some of those claims are.
July 30th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
Off-Topic, anyone know what Global Coherence is? It sounds like some fringe pseudo-science-spiritual thing. It’s an some sort of project/initiative by Gregg Braden…I can’t make up my mind as to whether this guy is a loon or not…The only reason I’m aware of it is because my mother forwarded me an email (she’s constantly on the latest spirituality trend)
July 30th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
I want one of those sacks.
July 30th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
Dara Ó Briain is also one of the people who signed the “Keep the Libel Laws out of Science” document at http://www.senseaboutscience.org.uk/index.php/site/project/334 — definitely one of the Good Guys.
This video is an edited selection of a couple of bits from “Dara Ó Briain Talks Funny”, which is available on DVD from Amazon.co.uk, or in audiobook form on iTunes. It also has some good bits about psychics.
If you go looking for his stuff, keep in mind that he spells his name “Ó Briain”, not “O’Briain”, though you’ll find it listed both ways.
July 30th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
“Science knows it doesn’t know everything, otherwise it would stop.” Classic.
July 30th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Brilliant.
…and @ Spencer. Brilliant.
July 30th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
This is wonderful, absolutely wonderful. I’ve found it in the past quite annoying the way that people seem to find anyone who is funny to be right (if you can make your point with humour, you’re right), but it’s awesome to see someone who is right being funny. Yaay!
July 30th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
And now for the other side. My knee was going south. I could not go up or down stairs without holding onto the hand rail. I went to a sports doctor who said learn to live with it. I went to a chiropractor who did manipulation and ultrasound and recommended orthotic inserts for my shoes.
Even before I got the inserts, I was back to running within a few weeks of beginning treatment. No doubt it was all a placebo affect
. Or maybe, just maybe, there are other means of treating problems with the body besides potential lethal (100K deaths a year from PROPER use of prescription drugs) drugs or cutting up the body 
July 30th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
Dara is awesome! Especially on Mock The Week
He’s also one of us – a fellow science geek!
(Absolutely unintended rhyme there lol)
If you need a laugh at religion he’s the one to go with http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0123R6vjIoE&feature=related
July 30th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
Another great quote along those lines is from Stephen Fry: “Just because science doesn’t know everything, does NOT mean that science knows nothing.”
July 30th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
One of the funniest comedians working today. One small nitpick: his name is spelled “Dara Ó Briain”.
July 30th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
A quick nitpick. He says you never seem them try to do the balance with “really really hard stuff, like physics.”
To that I only have to make mention of the LHC and blackholes. That is all.
July 30th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
’tis nice to see a bit of Irish representation on this blog. Particularly Dara Ó Briain, who is probably my all-time favourite comic. Also Ed Byrne is most excellent.
Go to the youtube page to see the related video from Mitchell and Webb sketch on a homeopathic hospital. HILARIOUS!
(Also nice to see some pedantry about Irish spelling)
July 30th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
He makes one little mistake. When he says we don’t get a guy from NASA on and to give balance here’s a guy that believes that the sky is a carpet painted by god, he obviously has forgotten about moon hoax proponents.
Otherwise, fantastic clip!
July 30th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
@TechSkeptic just to carry on: 30C is dilution of one in 100^30 (or 10^60), that is 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
@GregB I did the math a bit more carefully and this is what I came up with: if you take a sphere with diameter of 1 AU (150 mil. km) and put one molecule of the substance in such a sphere, the resulting dilution would be 30.9C
Some homeopathic dilutions are given to be 200C – If you filled the entire universe with molecules of water and have one molecule of your substance in it, the resulting dilution would be approximately 55C.
Thus, just as astrology, homeopathy is BULL!
July 30th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
There’s things about which I disagree with you, and about which I agree with you. But sadly, by now, it doesn’t matter which is which. A person, and an intelligent one at that, going around writing blog posts about “slamming” and “mocking” things they have a problem with (even if justified), just looses any sympathy and credibility in my book.
“Hey, let’s just tie the idiot we disagree with to a pole in the town square and fling rotten vegetables at him ! Woohoo, that’s the intelligent response to go with ! We’re such an educated, cool bunch !”
Seriously Phil, don’t you think just calm and sober addressing of people’s intellect will do the job ? Do you really think appealing to lower behaviours like “slamming” and “mocking” is the way to go ? Instead of some intellect and sobriety winning the day by speaking for itself ?
July 30th, 2009 at 3:39 pm
@Leander there is no point in having an intelligent debate with someone who’d scream “blah blah blah” off top of his lungs at any piece of evidence you present. All these myths have been debunked numerous times by expert recognized worldwide. It is the same old stuff with astrology, antivaxxers, psychics, nutritionists, creationists and so on and so forth. So forgive us the indulgence for taking a second to mock those pathetic individuals whom countless keep trying to set straight every second on every day.
July 30th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
Leander, pointing out logical inconsistencies, and then finding their absurdity amusing, is a legitimate form of criticism. Coddling illogic in the name of not appearing offensive is how these problems are allowed to persist.
July 30th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
@scribuff
I forgive you, if you need it. I just think it makes you look really stupid and childish. No offense, if that’s possible.
@Travis
You know, pointing out illogic in a civilized way is not “coddling”. It’s civilized discourse, and not offensive in the least. “Slamming” and “mocking” illogic however, is not very civilized. Like I said, just go and tie ‘em to a pole and throw vegetables at them. That’s what “mocking” and “slamming” is – NOT civilized.
July 30th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
I love the point he makes about herbal medicine in response to woos that make the claims that these “cures” have been around for hundreds of years. Yes, they have, and the stuff that worked formed the basis of medical science
July 30th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
if a homeopath mixes up a 30C concoction to cure an illness, how do they segregate the “active” ingredient from impurities?
the EPA guidlines for inorganic impurities in drinking water include maximum concentrations (of about 0.001 to 0.1 mg/L) for:
antimony
arsenic
asbestos
barium
beryllium
cadmium
chromium
copper
cyanide
lead
mercury
selenium
thallium
plus there are organic impurities and microbes like fecal coliform, e. coli and cryptosporidium.
as people have calculated above, when you get the ridiculous dilutions the homeopaths claim, there are NO molecules of the “active” ingredient. but there sure will be plenty of other contaminants left in the water.
homeopath says “well, the 30C eye of newt ought to cure your insomnia, but the arsenic is going to dissolve your circulatory system. the barium is going to explode your heart. the selenium is going to make your arms go numb. the thallium is going to make all of your hair permanently fall out. but you’ll be able to sleep! that will be $50 please.”
homeopathy is ridiculous.
July 30th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
Leander, calm and sober addressing of a person’’s intellect will NOT do the job. If it would, it would have done so already.
How precisely is mockery a “lower behaviour”? I’m not even sure what that means. I am sure, however, that homeopathy deserves mockery, if for no other reason than what scibuff pointed out. The math is bad. Also, no evidence.
July 30th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
@Leander:
Seriously Phil, don’t you think just calm and sober addressing of people’s intellect will do the job ?
Unfortunately, that can be proven false just by reading some of the responses to earlier posts on similar topics.
July 30th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
Excellent video!
The more people realize that homeopathy is a fraud, the better.
July 30th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
@Leander…I honestly can’t tell whether that’s a Poe.
Also, I just can’t stop myself from submitting a ”me three“ comment: “…otherwise they’d stop” actually had me pounding on my desk.
July 30th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
@Robert E
Okay, I wouldn’t dispute that you got a point, at least with some of the cases – but please tell me this: what are you gonna accomplish with mocking and slamming then ? Other than having the pleasure of making yourself feel clever and cool by laughing at the stupidity of others..which, to me, seems pretty primitive.
@Bill
I honestly don’t really care about your predicament.
July 30th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
Apparently you don’t have to act civilized when you’ve got righteous indignation on your side. Or perhaps the folks in these comment threads bash and slam because deep down they know there is some truth to alternative medicine and being wrong terrifies the hell out of them, so they resort to converting all that scary doubt into negative outward criticism towards anything “different”, hiding behind their convenient “facts” in the process.
As though scientific theories weren’t at some point considered “different” themselves.
In other news, this comedian happily washed away the bad taste in my mouth left from watching Dane Cook reruns on Comedy Central. Now THAT guy is closet anti-science.
July 30th, 2009 at 4:09 pm
Leander, he isn’t mocking people who “disagree” with him. He is mocking liars. They don’t deserve respect and neither do their long-discredited claims.
Treating liars with the same respect as honest people just empowers them to lie even more.
July 30th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
Watched Mock the Week tonight actually, a TV show Dara hosts over here in England. One of the shows I have to watch every week, even if I watch it on iPlayer.
July 30th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
Pointing out to onlookers how stupid the liars’ claims are. This is one of the great powers of satire and humor, and it is a job they have done well for thousands of years. Rather than being uncivilized, mockery and satire are an essential component of civilized culture.
July 30th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
@Damon
“being wrong terrifies the hell out of them”
Personally, I think you’re on to something there
@ndt
“Leander, he isn’t mocking people who “disagree” with him. He is mocking liars.”
Apart from the fact that they’d most likely *disagree* with him in a debate…even if they’re liars, same thing. Do you respond to them by just calmly exposing their lies and letting that speak for itself, or do have to go and make a mockfest out of it to feel cool and all sophisticated ?
“Pointing out to onlookers how stupid the liars’ claims are. This is one of the great powers of satire and humor, and it is a job they have done well for thousands of years.”
First: Pointing out to onlookers the stupidity of certain claims can be done in a neutral, dignified way. To “slam” and “mock” them is going beyond simple pointing out, and I assume you’re intelligent enough to see that. About satire and humor…I laughed my ass off at the clip. Because it’s actually presented as satire and humor. By a COMEDIAN. No matter if he really thinks that way or not, it was a comedic performance. Not a friggin’ science blog. I agree with you on the role of satire and humor – as long as it it exactly that. Phil is not a comedian, and I’d argue his blog posts don’t attempt to come across as such. So this excuse is not applicable to him, in my opinion.
July 30th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
@Leander-
Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.
Are you going to make any new points, or just wring your hands and say “don’t be mean?”
July 30th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
Reminds me of my Today in parody blog entry at facts, not fantasy. http://www.factsnotfantasy.com/2009/07/today-in-parody-14-jul-09.html
July 30th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
@Buzz Parsec
I’ve made my point clear enough by now – if you still equate it with “don’t be mean”, I don’t know how to help you. Maybe one of the guys around here will assist you.
To, for a second, entertain your interpretation though – what do you think you’ll accomplish by being mean ?
July 30th, 2009 at 5:18 pm
@Leander,
Are you stating that this blog is not funny?
Are you mocking BA?
I find this blog to be funny. I think that Phil uses satire effectively. Humor is an important tool in education. This blog seems to be a science education blog, and a very successful one. Perhaps a part of the reason is the use of humor.
It is even fun to mock NAZIs.
You are not opposed to satire, only opposed to scientists using satire to point out that these anti-science people mock themselves. Maybe you’ve been reading Joseph Heller lately? Do you object to his satirical portrayal of the war? Should he have only used logic to make his point? Or do you only object to references to it?
July 30th, 2009 at 5:23 pm
Leander, maybe we’re just pissed off and not interested in taking it anymore. Mockery has the function of making a thing not-sacred anymore. Hear the gospel of Sam Singleton, atheist evangelist on docility and deference expected of the minority by the majority.
July 30th, 2009 at 5:25 pm
Here’s another really funny mockery of homeopathy and other alternatives to medicine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0
July 30th, 2009 at 5:52 pm
Leander:
Mean is unscrewing someone’s head and inserting reduced organic residue(down their neck hole).
Mocking stupid statements is meant to show it is, in fact, STUPID and as already stated, satire is a fine old art form, probably dating back to our earliest adventure with language.
The Devils Dictionary by Ambrose Bierce is a classic of satire and mockery, pointing out how religion is used to excuse every form of bad action. I highly recommend it. It was written over a century ago and his observations are just as pertinent today as they were then.
I’ve tried being logical and cooly rational to damn fools and idiots,,,it just pisses them off even more, with accusations of being a “heartless robot,,,”etc. Humor is a much more refined and civilized way of pointing out the obvious, that there are a lot of damn fools in this world and they need to be constantly informed that their idiocy really IS foolish and laughable.
GAry 7
July 30th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
@Leander
Is this the same Leander who on the TAM 7, the man version thread posted this
July 30th, 2009 at 6:03 pm
Shane:
I went back and checked it.
Good catch, Dude! I guess he’s just sore that some comedian is having fun at the expense of his friends,,,
GAry 7
July 30th, 2009 at 6:03 pm
Leander (#30): have you noticed the Moon hoax is still around? How well did my calm and sober addressing of those claims go? It helps, but sometimes it’s OK to make fun of goofiness. If you disagree, that’s fine, but you might wanna gird your loins. I’ll be doing more of it here as time goes by.
July 30th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
@Leander
“Phil is not a comedian, and I’d argue his blog posts don’t attempt to come across as such”
Just how long have you been reading this blog Leander? 9 out of 10 (non scientific guesstimate) blog posts by Phil are so heavily loaded with puns and in jokes that anybody would think I had stomach cramps with the amount of groaning that occurs when reading the blog.
Anyway, thankfully proponents of woo have filled the niche formerly filled by the village idiot in the middle ages. I’m not laughing at you, I’m… no I guess I am laughing at you.
I wanted to be a comedian but I couldn’t handle people laughing at me.
July 30th, 2009 at 6:42 pm
And don’t forget, slamming and mocking is fun.
July 30th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
@Rogue Medic
“Are you stating that this blog is not funny? Are you mocking BA?”
“Not really” to both questions. Supported by anything I wrote so far, if not, point out. And I’m not opposed to anybody pointing out anybody mocking themselves – only I think if that were true, they’d name it “Anti-science and alt-med practicioners mocking themselves”, instead of “Mocking antiscience and alt-med”, wouldn’t you think ?
And mocking f*cking Nazis ? It’s so bloody hilarious, only when you grow up in f*cking Germany it isn’t. I’m not gonna get into sentimetal details, but maybe you wanna work on your tactfulness in face of people on the net whose heritage you’re unfamiliar with.
“Mocking stupid statements is meant to show it is, in fact, STUPID and as already stated, satire is a fine old art form, probably dating back to our earliest adventure with language.”
Ostracism, banning and shunning date far back as well. So do human sacrifices, etc. Does that make them right ? I don’t think so. It’s quite a fallacy you’re sitting on there. As “already stated”, to show that statements are stupid can be done in a dignified way that just points out obvious facts, that let the viewer decide for themselves. Or it can be done as comedy, and in danger of repeating myself, I don’t see the posts Phil titles as “mocking” and “slamming” as comedic endeavours. It’s a science blog, not a comedy blog.
He’s outside of the context of comedy, mocking and ridiculing stances of other human beings like him, and it just makes him look childish and irrational – distracting from very valuable things he might have to say.
@shane
You will grant a man his booze every once in a while, will ya ? Not making excuses, I stand by that. Just mentioning, I was not really in the basic state at that time. Geez, nobody would give a damn if it was Christopher Hitchens.
“Anyway, thankfully proponents of woo have filled the niche formerly filled by the village idiot in the middle ages.”
It just shows what you’re really after…a village idiot. Someone seemingly inferior to you, someone you can put down to elevate yourself. What a Shane. Oh my god, was that comedy ? I just said “shane” instead of “shame” !!! Does that make me a comedian ? Why yeah, I guess it does ! Seriously.
@Phil Plait
I know you’ll be doing more of that, I didn’t give myself to the illusion some comments of mine would keep you from that. Regarding the moon hoax though…yeah, it’s still around, and I find it to be hilarious. Did it go away from ridicule and mockery though ? Doesn’t seem like it.
I feel honoured that you’d respond directly to my comments, so I’ll use it for this – I despise blind belief, I embrace critical investigation, and I think you’re not always right, and the amazing universe we both, and innumerable others, marvel at is not what it seems to be from our limited points of view. Please, for every post in the spirit of making fun of seeming goofiness that you’ll post here, make one that questions your convictions and ideas to the deepest core, and be true to the scientific spirit.
July 30th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
Just to clear up for the occasional misunderstanding…I’m not, nor have I been affiliated with Nazis. But growing up in Germany sometimes makes things more complex than that.
July 30th, 2009 at 6:57 pm
@Leander
The people who are taken in by the lies of the Jennys of the world deserve well reasoned logical arguments. Jenny and the woomeisters themselves deserve nothing but scorn, derision, ridicule, mocking and the waving off buttocks in their general direction. So, yes they are the village idiots. Unfortunately a lot of people listen to these idiots.
Humour is very subjective and you can find humour in almost any circumstance. Have you never laughed during a funeral? There’s gallows humour too. There’s the old cliche if you don’t laugh you’d cry.
July 30th, 2009 at 7:04 pm
@Leander
OT sort of, but you’ve just reminded me of the Fawlty Towers episode “The Germans”.
July 30th, 2009 at 7:08 pm
@shane
“So, yes they are the village idiots. Unfortunately a lot of people listen to these idiots.”
YES. So how are you gonna treat them ? Demonstrate their idiocy by demonstrations that are obvious to anybody watching, illustrating the idiocy of their claims without mentioning it (you know, somethimg you’d wanna use the term “sophisticated” for), or by binding them to a pole and flinging rotten vegetables at them ? Easy choice, please let me know though.
“OT sort of, but you’ve just reminded me of the Fawlty Towers episode “The Germans”.”
Bah, maybe I overreacted. You can mention the war, it’s all cool. I just tend to get a bit upset about it all. You know, your grandfather actually breaks out in tears when you’re a little boy of five years old, recounting his barely-twenty-years-old buddies being torn to shreds by Russians and Americans. Or your Dad sharing his first childhood memory, which is phosphorus bombs falling from the sky, shining oh so beautifully while your grandmother is trying to drag him to safety. Of course the Nazis were a bunch of lunatics, but not everybody suffering the wrath aginst them was one of them, and some of us even today have heartfelt connections to that.
July 30th, 2009 at 7:22 pm
@Leander,
Wow, you really are a meanie.
Mocking NAZIs is a bad thing because we need to be sensitive to the feelings of NAZIs.
I guess we all have to goose step to your approved method of disagreement.
Sieg Leander.
I’ll remember that I should not laugh at anything where Mel Brooks makes fun of NAZIs. He obviously has no clue, when it comes to NAZIs.
Does my Godwin’s Law invocation trump your Poe’s Law?
Remember, laughter is the best medicine.
July 30th, 2009 at 7:43 pm
“Mocking NAZIs is a bad thing because we need to be sensitive to the feelings of NAZIs.”
Now if you can point out where I said you should be sympathetic to the feelings of Nazis, you might have a point.
Thing is, I didn’t advocate being sympathetic for Nazis. If anything at all, I advocated being sympathetic for people prematurely associated with Nazis. It’s not really the topic of this discussion, but you don’t really wanna understand it any other way, do you ? It’s easier to focus on this crap than on what is really being discussed.
I didn’t bring up this Nazi sh*t, I just reacted to it. Not everybody suffering from the responses to the actions of the Nazis was a Nazi, and some people still vividly remember that today, like it or not. So if some dimwit mindlessly brings that sh*t up on the web, I think I’m entitled to react to it. Doesn’t mean you get around an *intelligent* answer by just associating me with Nazis.
July 30th, 2009 at 7:54 pm
@Rogue Medic
To any impartial observer, the fact that you should tread out this Nazi thing should really demonstrate how helpless you are without any other means of argumenting. Must have been a Godsent I mentioned it, huh ? “Sieg Leander” just shows how much of a low-life you are. And I doubt Mel Brooks would have agreed to sh*t like that, because he was pretty damn close to the real thing, not the distanced mud-slinging you are used to.
July 30th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
Dara O’Briain
Brilliant! I immediately looked at all of his other YouTube clips.
Our kinda guy. Makes me proud to be half Irish.
Rogue Medic:
Mocking Nazis is a good thing because we need to help Germans mock them too.
That way they can heal the wounds of 2 wars that didn’t turn out well. For all involved.
Leander:
We mock the idiots of today to help unmask them. Too often they gain followers that they don’t deserve. By holding them up to ridicule it might help keep some of the more gullible folks from following the nutjobs.
The anti-vaccine crowd is a good example. If we hold its ringleaders like Jenny McCarthy up to ridicule, maybe some of the followers will come to their senses & get their kids vaccinated. We can only hope, eh?
July 30th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
Though homeopathy is a joke, it is important to stay hydrated when sick! But that won’t work for vaccines I’m afraid.
Also, nice video, props to Mr Plait for finding it for us!
P.s. don’t feed the trolls, I hear they bite. Lure them into the sunlight, let ‘em turn to stone.
July 30th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
Wouldn’t it be faster to simply go straight to the step where we determine what we can laugh about without hurting anyone’s feelings on teh intertubes?
July 30th, 2009 at 8:13 pm
“Mocking NAZIs is a bad thing because we need to be sensitive to the feelings of NAZIs.”
Now if you can point out where I said you should be sympathetic to the feelings of Nazis, you might have a point.
Thing is, I didn’t advocate being sympathetic for Nazis. If anything at all, I advocated being sympathetic for people prematurely associated with Nazis. It’snot really the topic of this discussion, but you don’t really wanna understand it any other way, do you ? It’s easier to focus on this crao than ot what is really being discussed.
I didn’t bring up this Nazi sh*t, I just reacted to it. Not everybody suffering from the responses to the actions of the Nazis was a Nazi, and some people still ividly remember that today, like it or not. So if som dimwit mindlessly brings that sh*t up on the web, I think I’m entitled to react to it. Doesn’t mean you get around an *intelligent* answer by just associating me with Nazis.
July 30th, 2009 at 10:43 pm
There’s one problem with using science and rational thought to attempt to dispel the myths fo homeopathy and anti-vaxxers.
A very large number of people are intellectually lazy. They don’t *want* to have to think for themselves. They just want someone to provide them with an answer that is easily memorized and parroted. And selling fear with it works. The news channels have been using that tactic for years.
If a scientist talks about the studies and research, to the intellectually lazy they come off as elitists talking above the little people. If an anti-vaxxer comes up and says “Children get autism because they use the mercury from thermometers in vaccines and we have statistics to prove it.” That’s enough for someone who doesn’t know how a vaccine is produced, and doesn’t want to spend an afternoon reading about it, or find out that most of the names associated with Wakefield’s study backpedaled from it when his numbers were found to be fudged.
People want easy answers. It’s why God “exists”, Creationism survives, and con men peddle everything from salvation to snake oil and still get rich doing it.
July 30th, 2009 at 11:11 pm
For everyone’s sake, enough about the Nazis.
Leander, I am going to address you for this one, since your posts have stirred most of the controversy here.
This isn’t about mocking and slamming, at least, not for me. Scientists who want to help people by protecting them from sometimes dangerously incorrect pseudoscience have to avoid falling into the classic trap. That trap is thinking it is possible to have a reasonable dialogue with proponents of pseudoscience. When a scientist treats one of these people as an equal (not equal in the sense of humanity or intelligence, but the idea that proponents of pseudoscience deserve to be considered on the same level as a credentialed expert).) it grants them credibility by proxy.
By ridiculing the pseudoscience (not the proponents themselves), scientists can avoid making it seem like pseudoscience is worth anything more than a quiet chuckle.
This is isn’t about witch-hunts or village idiots, it’s about using humor instead of scare tactics to keep people who might not know better from making dangerous errors in judgment.
July 30th, 2009 at 11:32 pm
The Young Aus Skeptics have a link to blog post by Meryl Dorey from the Anti Vaccination Network, sorry, Australian Vaccination Network. http://www.nocompulsoryvaccination.blogspot.com/2009/07/flu-is-not-biggest-danger-its-vaccine.html
The author links vaccinations with the Illuminati and the NWO and the UN.
Please please please can we mock and ridicule now? Seriously these people have no credibility and if they weren’t directly responsible for the deaths of babies they’d only have comedic value.
The article from Meryl apparently is a cut’n'paste from Pakistani Islamist conspiracy site and the full article is here…
http://www.daily.pk/7471/flu-is-not-the-biggest-danger-its-the-vaccine/
July 31st, 2009 at 1:01 am
Well I learn something new everyday. Today, thanks to this blog post, I finally realized why my friend the nutritionist crank wholeheartedly endorses homeopathy. I wasn’t aware of the difference between a dietician and a nutritionist–I always assumed they were one and the same.
Thanks for the link Phil!
Oh, yeah, that comedian is really funny. I’ll definitely be looking up more of his stuff.
July 31st, 2009 at 1:03 am
>58. Leander Says:
And mocking f*cking Nazis ? It’s so bloody hilarious, only when you grow up in f*cking Germany it isn’t. I’m not gonna get into sentimetal details, but maybe you wanna work on your tactfulness in face of people on the net whose heritage you’re unfamiliar with.
Well, as someone who hasn’t just grown up but is still living in Germany, let me tell you:
Yes, mocking stupid nazis is fun. And it certainly happens quite a bit, over here.
I’ll always fondly remember the skit about the neo-nazi getting a talking-to from his grandma about his (typically neo-nazi) behaviour, with her concluding “under H*tler,
this wouldn’t have been possible!”.
What’s seriously unfunny is people in faraway places who don’t understand the difference between nazis and Germans, but that is really a completely different thing.
July 31st, 2009 at 1:50 am
This isn’t properly “mockery” anyways. To be “mockery” it would have to entail a snide dismissal of the persons beliefs without any substantiation. For example, “he believes in homeopathy, what an idiot. Let’s make fun of the idiot.” This, on the other hand, is merely pointing out the logical, and factual, shortcomings of a movement and the resultant physiological response to acknowledgment of this is to laugh. Remember what Hobbes said, “if we couldn’t react to things that make no sense we couldn’t react to a lot of life.”
That what these people believe is so absurd that it causes us to laugh at it is their fault, not ours.
July 31st, 2009 at 3:03 am
@Leander,
When was this a serious discussion?
You are being ridiculously sensitive. I am just providing some ridicule.
Some German (I believe the de indicates a German location) video for your entertainment.
Heil myself!
Hitler Rap.
From To Be Or Not To Be.
Springtime for Hitler – The Producers(1968).
July 31st, 2009 at 3:56 am
[...] O’Brian, Irish comedian, says it the way it is, and as Phil Plait said, “I sometimes think that comedians wield more skeptical leverage than bloggers.” This [...]
July 31st, 2009 at 3:57 am
Greg B (10) said:
This is not quite right. 30C is 10(2*30) or 1060 (and I think this is the same as 10030), which I think is a rather smaller number than 100^1030.
July 31st, 2009 at 4:06 am
Doug Nusbaum (22) said:
Yes, and, IIRC, chiropractic is one of the very few alt-meds that has some evidentiary support (but only for back and joint problems), albeit not as rigorous as proper clinical trials. Did you have a point?
BTW, irrespective of the evidentiary basis of chiropractic, your anecdote does not count as evidence. Why not? Simple:- no control. Your anecdote does not demonstrate any link between the chiropractic treatment and your improvement. (Assuming it does is the logical fallacy known as post hoc ergo propter hoc – “after this, therefore because of this”.)
BTW, what does the death rate of normal medical practice have to do with this issue? We know that modern medicines have a biological activity, and that it can be different for different people. We also know that surgery carries risks with it – but pretty much every time, the risk of not having the surgery is greater.
July 31st, 2009 at 4:13 am
Leander (30) said:
OK, so what is the intelligent, educated response to people who insist, despite all of the evidence and repeated refutations of their “arguments” that (for instance) diluting a medicine (in a special way) makes it more potent?
How should we respond when someone makes a ridiculous claim and outright refuses to submit it to rigorous testing? What response is more appropriate than ridicule?
July 31st, 2009 at 4:17 am
Leander (33) said:
But in every case of (to name a paltry few) creationism, homeopathy, crystal healing, the moon hoax, 9/11 conspiracies, every supposed argument that is used to propose the woo has already been thoroughly and rigorously refuted and debunked over and over again. The proponents of such woo simply do not accept logic or reason or evidence. Therefore, they are indeed fair game for mockery and ridicule.
July 31st, 2009 at 4:17 am
[...] via Bad Astronomy [...]
July 31st, 2009 at 4:21 am
Rob (35) said:
Ah, yes, but it’s alright, you see, because all homeopathic “remedies” start out as poisons anyway. (The principle is to dilute a substance that causes the symptoms being treated.)
Or maybe they use WFI (Water For Injection, which is a pharmaceutical industry standard substance, prepared by quadruple distillation of reverse-osmosis-purified water).
July 31st, 2009 at 4:27 am
Leander (40) said:
Mockery of the calibre practiced by Dara O’Briain (that’s how it is spelled in the credits for Mock the Week!) does serve a function – it helps to sway people who are undecided or uncertain without requiring that they actually understand or investigate the detail. It was precisely this tactic than Ben Stein attempted to use in advertising the movie Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed. It failed, not because the movie was just a bunch of lies (although, of course, it was), but because the movie and its trailer were so dire.
July 31st, 2009 at 6:38 am
Yes, it can, but mocking is more effective. Dignity is for funerals.
July 31st, 2009 at 9:27 am
Dara is good in ‘Three Men in a Boat’ It’s a fun recreation of the book by Jerome K Jerome. He travels up the Thames with Gryf Rhys Jones, Rory McGrath and a Tent.
There is a sequal where they enter a Yacht race off the South Coast.
July 31st, 2009 at 9:51 am
Fantastic. I had a recent homeopathy encounter which makes me really appreciate what people like O’Brian are doing. My son’s sweet lil’ ol’ piano teacher was having the exterior of her house painted and said the fumes had made her sick. But it was okay, she said, because her homeopathist had given her something to sniff which made her feel better. After I was able to process what she said (and that she wasn’t joking) I told her she HAD to sleep somewhere else that night, and that we had a spare bed if she couldn’t reach her daughter. She assured me that the painting was done, it was all earlier in the week, etc. I couldn’t shake the thought of showing up for a lesson and finding her passed out (or worse) on the floor from paint fumes because of an unshakable belief in homeopathy.
July 31st, 2009 at 12:20 pm
zombies!!!
July 31st, 2009 at 1:05 pm
As noted above, this is an abridged clip from Dara O’Brien Talks Funny. You can also find it on YouTube if you want to check out the rest of his stuff before buying. The whole routine mocking erroneous beliefs is about twenty minutes long, and takes up, as I recall, most of clips 3 and 4 (out of 9).
July 31st, 2009 at 1:51 pm
Darn… can’t find his stuff in the US. Stupid media publishing regions.
July 31st, 2009 at 2:14 pm
Firstly TEchSkep – you can’t count.
1x = 1:9
1c = 1:99
Secondly, homeopathic medicine is made using distilled water.
Thirdly, I wonder if ANY one of you have ever even seen a Materia Medica or homeopathic repertory (about 2,000 pages) ?
July 31st, 2009 at 3:13 pm
That’s a great sketch. In addition to the Mitchell and Webb one below it bodes well for skeptical British comedy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsTwW938hxs&feature=related
July 31st, 2009 at 5:00 pm
@ spencer
> along with this should be posted this great beat poem by Tim Minchin called “Storm”:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB_htqDCP-s
> it’s 9 minutes but it is sooooooo good
There’s also the much-longer-titled-but-much-shorter-in-runtime “If You Open Your Mind Too Much Your Brain Will Fall Out (Take My Wife!)”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFO6ZhUW38w
@ Darren Landrum:
> Dara O’Briain (note the extra I) has a Master’s degree in theoretical physics, and then he went on to become a comedian. Just goes to show how life can throw some curve balls.
And Harry Hill used to be a doctor, and Chris Morris (The Day Today/Brass Eye) did a degree in Zoology. I’m sure I’ve heard about other comedians in the British TV comedy community who studied sciency subjects at university, though I can’t remember them off the top of my head…
August 1st, 2009 at 3:12 am
LouHom (91) said:
Quite obviously, you have never seen the inside of a lab.
Dilutions are not quoted as “1 + x”, because when two solutions mix, the final volume is never the sum of the two component volumes, unless the solutions were identical. Of course, for homeopathy, after about the 12C dilution, you are simply diluting water with water.
Dilutions are most commonly described in relation to the final volume as a factor of the starting volume. Thus, a 1C dilution is a 100x dilution, because the final volume is 100 x the starting volume. Unless, of course, the homeopaths insist on performing their dilutions in a way that isn’t reproducible (i.e. if they literally take 100 µL of starting extract and add 9.9 mL of DW, they will only ever achieve a final volume of 10.000 mL once the starting extract has been diluted down to nothing).
Yeah? And what regulations govern the cleaning of the apparatus used to perform that distillation? Food hygiene regs?
And I wonder if you can take one page of that and show me its evidentiary basis …? Nonsense is still nonsense no matter how many pages it takes up.
August 1st, 2009 at 3:36 am
Damon (41) said:
Righteous indignation has nothing to do with it, as you would well know had you paid attention to comments in previous threads on topics like this. Civilised behaviour (BTW, which part of mockery and ridicule of the ridiculous is “uncivilised”?) has failed to get the purveyors of snake-oil to accept or acknowledge that, for the most part, they have no support for their claims at all. Homeopathy, for instance, has been shown to be no better than a placebo.
Whether there is “truth” to it or not, the alt-med practitioners don’t bother to find out. Many of them don’t even want to find out. Some alt-med remedies have been investigated in rigorous trials, and have been found to be no better than a placebo. Few or no alt-med remedies have any theoretical basis, and very nearly none at all have any evidentiary support.
However, if there is “truth” in these alt-med remedies, most of us would be more than happy to accept being proven wrong. However, I judge this unlikely because the alt-med community (if I may generalise) isn’t even trying to acquire any high-quality data.
Instead of whinging and whining about being criticised, you should be petitioning the professional organisations of the alt-meds and saying “why the hell aren’t you sponsoring trials to show that this stuff really works?”.
Our convenient “facts”, as you put it, just happen to be the truth, so suck it up and live with it. Or simply go back to your fantasies. Some of us really do want to understand reality the way it is.
Seriously, though, you are way off the mark here. The existing evidence indicates that almost none of the alt-meds is any better than a placebo. Of course, some of them are very effective placebos, but most medical professionals consider the practice of prescribing a placebo to be unethical.
Again, you miss the point, either deliberately out of disingenuousness, or through sheer bloody-minded adherence to your creed of ignorance. The “difference” is irrelevant. What matters is evidence. Alt-meds have (almost) none. (I will accede that there is some evidence that chiropractic has some benefit for back and joint problems.) Most alt-meds have no link to known science or medicine at all (this is particularly true for things like crystal healing and reiki, which seem to be mere mumbo-jumbo). This is why we object to this stuff being sold as if it were medicine. And we ridicule the purveyors and adherents because (a) it really is ridiculous, and (b) rational argument has failed.
August 1st, 2009 at 3:39 am
Ndt (42) said:
I had not thought of it in these terms before, but you are right.
August 1st, 2009 at 6:02 am
Leander (45) said:
What you seem to have missed is that the lies have already been exposed calmly, rationally and respectfully. The liars then repeat the same lies over and over again. There is no quicker way to make the point that what these people claim is ridiculous than to ridicule it. Treating them with respect after they have ignored every refutation of their idiocy imparts a degree of credibility to their claims that they simply do not deserve.
Fine, you’ve said your piece, now let me ask you something: To what extent must something be inherently ludicrous before you will accept a scientist simply laughing and pointing at it? How crazy must someone be before you will call a spade a spade, or must it forever be an earth-inverting horticultural implement?
What these liars want above all else is respect for their viewpoints; but when it comes to claims about reality, respect can only be earned.
August 1st, 2009 at 3:39 pm
True. [And I too sat up and took notice of Ntd analysis.] (Also, believers hate being laughed at, because they always rely on special pleading at the very base of their faith. So it is a sure way to pry away the grit and gravel and Gish galloping that they try to hide this ugliness behind.)
But I would add that if there isn’t ridicule there is something wrong. Ridicule is a great tool to keep sanity in the face of perverse stupidity.
The day we stop laughing at these
jokersliars, I will be afraid. Very afraid.August 1st, 2009 at 8:40 pm
If you want to see the whole Dara show, start here at clip 1 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYBWA7wX_LM&NR=1
and at the end of each clip just click on the next one in the series. All 9 are up. If laughter is the best medicine I’m going to be completely healthy for the next year. I’m a definite fan of this guy now. He’s so quick and you should see him when he interacts and ad-libs from the audience. Brilliant.
August 2nd, 2009 at 7:36 am
Dara is one of my favorite rotating panelists from Stephen Fry’s show QI, which if you haven’t seen it go find an episode now. It’s an amazing bulwark against ignorance and for intellectualism.
August 2nd, 2009 at 10:28 pm
Excellent! Reminds me of this great bit from another Brit TV show, “That Mitchell & Webb Look”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0
August 3rd, 2009 at 4:37 pm
Doug Nusbaum Says:
“Or maybe, just maybe, there are other means of treating problems with the body besides potential lethal (100K deaths a year from PROPER use of prescription drugs) drugs or cutting up the body”
Good to hear from a voice of sanity on the otherwise inance comments on this topic.
August 17th, 2009 at 1:03 am
RickW,
Where is there any indication that these numbers are from the proper use of the medications?
What are inance comments?
Why would people want to take a treatment that has side effects, but no benefits? All of the alternative treatments have this problem.