The AVN is reaping what they sowed

By Phil Plait | August 7, 2009 6:00 am

I’m not shedding too many tears over the tsunami of bad press the Australian Vaccination Network (AVN) is receiving right now.

I’ve written about them before, oh yes. They are the ones headed by Meryl Dorey, the woman who says vaccinations are dangerous, who says no one dies of pertussis, who says that it’s better not to vaccinate, who insinuates (at the 11:50 mark of that video) that doctors only vaccinate children because it’s profitable for them. She says that, even though on that live TV program she sat a few feet away from Toni and David McCaffery, parents who had just lost their four week old daughter to pertussis because she was too young to be vaccinated yet and the herd immunity in Sydney was too low to suppress the pertussis bacterium. This year alone, three babies in Australia, including young Dana McCaffery, have died from pertussis.

Not enough parents are vaccinating their children. And groups like the AVN spread misinformation about vaccines, spread it like a foul odor on the wind.

As I wrote a few days ago, the AVN will be investigated for their propaganda about vaccines. And now Dick Smith, an Australian businessman and founding skeptic there, has sponsored a devastating ad created by the Australian Skeptics. The ad ran in The Australian, a national newspaper, on Thursday:

Click it to see it full-size.

The ad has picked up some press of its own; it was covered by the Australian Broadcasting Corporation website. The AVN claims they are not antivax, but instead are pro choice. Dick Smith disagrees:

They are actually anti-vaccination and they should put on every bit of their material that they are anti-vaccination in great big words.

The evidence is on his side.

There’s an article on the ad on ITWire, too. Word is spreading. You can help: blog about this. Tell people about this. Put it on Facebook, on Twitter.

By spreading misinformation about vaccinations the AVN is scaring parents. The herd immunity is low in part because parents are scared to vaccinate their children. The low herd immunity is killing babies. It really is just that simple.

My daughter recently found my cache of old home movies from when she was a baby. We’ve been laughing, watching her eat and play and be silly when she was just a few months old. Then I think of Toni and David McCaffery and a piece of my heart dies. Then I think of the AVN, and it screams.

Vaccines are one of the greatest triumphs of humanity; the ability to save hundreds of millions of lives through a simple inoculation. But because some people cannot accept reality, innocent human lives will be lost.

I applaud Dick Smith and the Australian skeptics, including my friends Rachael Dunlop and Richard Saunders, for undertaking this heroic effort of shining a bright light on the AVN.

Antivaxxers must be stopped.

CATEGORIZED UNDER: Alt-Med, Antiscience

Comments (165)

  1. MarkW

    Good work. The anti-vaxxers need to be resisted at every step.

  2. BUNNY

    DON’T DO IT! IT CAUSES AUTISM!

  3. Thorne

    @ Bunny: “DON’T DO IT! IT CAUSES AUTISM!”

    Please show the evidence for this statement.
    (And if you quote any non-scientists, you are only exposing your own lack of intelligence.)

  4. BUNNY

    @ Thorne

    You’ve just been poe’d!

  5. Glad to see continued press coverage of this. And, as usual for vaccine-related posts, I recommend people pay a visit to http://antiantivax.flurf.net before commenting on how bad vaccines are. A lot of the myths and misinformation is handled there, and hopefully some questions can be answered, if not by that info, then on the sites linked under Additional Resources.

  6. Thanks Phil. Good to see this getting out across the world. It’s a bold step and all involved are to be congratulated. Let’s hope it has some impact.

    @ Bunny: The problem with a Poe is that the believers will believe you too.

  7. BUNNY

    @ Andy

    Ah, that’s s sad!

  8. Blondin

    Dick Smith is one of my heroes. It’s people like him that give Geekdom a good name! I think he would make an excellent TAM speaker if you could get him.

  9. It surely is good news. I don’t think it will kill them off but it will limit their reach and push them further toward the fringe

  10. Ariane

    Just put it all over my facebook profile. Proud to be Aussie right now, go Dick!

  11. I’m feeling pessimistic about this. Not that the ad is bad, just that people are so bad at discerning truth from fiction.

  12. Thorne

    @ #4, Bunny: “You’ve just been poe’d!”

    Can anyone explain to me what this means? As near as I can tell, this is an aspersion cast by imbeciles against intelligent people who wish to engage in meaningful discourse.

    Or not!

  13. @Thorne

    Poe’s Law basically states “Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won’t mistake for the real thing.”

    Originally, it referred solely to parodies of creationism on creationism vs. evolution threads, but it’s since expanded to cover pretty much any and every silly idea.

    So, Bunny’s comment, with its large, bold font, was a parody of anti-vaxers. But, without any indication of humor, you took it for the real deal. Hence, you’ve been Poe’d.

  14. amphiox

    “Vaccines are one of the greatest triumphs of humanity”

    In terms of number of lives saved and years of quality life preserved, vaccination probably ranks second only to sanitation all time in the entire history of medicine. And if you separate out sanitation into comparable individual developments (ie flush toilet, running water, sewage treatment, etc), vaccines might rank number 1.

  15. Thorne

    @#12 Todd:

    Ahh, I see. Thank you for that.

    So the purpose is to make someone feel foolish by getting them to defend their beliefs? In that case, I have been properly fooled, Bunny. You can feel quite proud of yourself now, I presume.
    ;-)

  16. PaleGreenPantsWithNobodyInsideThem

    Thorne,

    A Poe is usually a phoney religious type who says superbly stupid things but you’re not able to discern if it’s a troll because some religious types actually believe those superbly stupid things.

  17. “Oh, and visit http://factsnotfantasy.com.”

    Not accessible?

  18. @Thorne: Being told you’ve been Poed is equivalent to being laughed at for not having telepathic abilities.

  19. james wheaton

    I have a new take on all this (at leasts new for me). I observe that mistrust of Big Pharma and the medical community is a large factor in the antivax movement. Scientific evidence that we take as convincing is mistrusted as well, as many feel it is disinfo ginned up by scientists whose pockets are lined with payola from industry.

    I know this feeling is out there partly becuase my wife who is a RN, who is as skeptical as the next person and whose opinions I largely respect, believes there is something to the antivax arguments. By the way I do not agree with her, and have tried to convince her otherwise.

    But look at what is happening with the health bill in the US right now. The insurance industry and Big Pharma are showing the world just what blood suckers they really are, who would stop at nothing to protect their turfs. And it is the same industry (Pharma) that we are trying to absolve from culpability with the vaccination issue. I am sure many think we are talking out of both sides of our mouths. It should not be too hard to understand that many refuse to trust Big Pharma.

    You want to place some blame? Let’s blame big industry in the US, and the Reagan era deregulations, for creating such a climate of mistrust where John Q citizen cannot know what is accurate and what is not any more. We can also blame the news media for not doing the homework necessary to tell what is right and what is wrong. Instead they take the lazy way out and give air time to anyone who shouts loud enough, and/or anyone who may help ratings.

    This will take a long time to fix. The question in my mind right now is how do you better convince an audience who is rightfully distrustful of Big Pharma that Big Pharma isn’t doing something unsavory with vaccines…..

  20. If you think your brain can stand it, I’ve got a transcript of Meryl Dorey’s webinar Voodoo Children that originally aired 31 July 2009. Keep your tinfoil hat firmly attached. The AVN is a very bad joke with a deadly punchline.

  21. I lived in Panama and Venezuela 7 of my first ten years in the late 40s. It was a third world then, children in the general population were only given under pants until they were 5. No vaccinations for them so they had to live through every thing if they could. Every time we left stateside I was shot up for everything the State Department could think of. Just from the Canal Zone to outside was a shock to my parents and they had been in the interior of Columbia before I was born. Vaccination make a difference. I am a great odds with my oldest because she will not vaccinate my Grandson

  22. PaleGreenPantsWithNobodyInsideThem

    James Weaton….is your middle name Lorenzo?

  23. I just wish that ad hadn’t used Comic Sans font.

  24. BUNNY

    @ everyone,

    I wanted it to last longer(poe others too), but there weren’t many people so I stopped it after Thorne!

  25. Nomen Publicus

    These antivaxers are evil, plain and simple.

    They want to return medical science to the 19th century when mothers would organise “pox parties” so that their children would catch and hopefully survive chickenpox so they would have a better chance at later surviving smallpox. Many, many children didn’t survive, struck down by some disease that now is trivially prevented.

    Vaccines are not perfect, but they are vastly safer than catching the diseases they are designed to prevent.

    Meryl Dorey if she truly believes what she claims must also believe that having 10 or 20 percent of children dying before they reach their teens is an acceptable consequence.

    As I said, evil.

  26. @paraphen

    Thanks. I think the commenting software included my final period as part of the web address. Try this: http://factsnotfantasy.com/

  27. Can someone point me to where I can find out just how much Mercury is in vaccinations? Someone I know is claiming that, although a single vaccination only contains a small amount, that the combined amount in all the childhood vaccinations is “dangerous”. Reputable sites only, please.

    Thanks.

  28. Gary Ansorge

    21. Naked Bunny with a Whip:

    What, you mean everybody ISN’T telepathic? Dang!

    I expect it has more to do with the global perception of incongruity or the lack thereof. I’ve known many highly intelligent, logical, analytical, rational people whose sense of humor, by my reckoning, was impeded. They kept trying to analyze a joke for its cultural significance, instead of seeing it’s inbuilt contradictions. Puns are my favorite form of humor, though I also love a good, structured joke. Unfortunately for most jokers, I anticipate punch lines, and start laughing about 5 seconds before the joke is finished being told,,which really irritates most comedians,,,

    Whip,,,hmmm, reminds me of an old political party,,,and why are they called parties? Are they supposed to be fun?

    GAry 7
    PS. Anti-vaxers are just another manifestation of paranoid, delusional conspiracy freaks which, I fear, we shall always have with us,,,though if we try real hard, we can minimize the damage they do,,,

  29. Gary Ansorge

    30. Ken B:

    That’s ethyl mercury,Thimerosol, as opposed to methyl mercury, which is highly toxic. Thimerosol is no longer used as a preservative in vaccines.

    Check out the Center for Disease Control Vaccines page,,,most authoritative source I know.

    GAry 7

  30. Gary Ansorge:

    Anti-vaxers are just another manifestation of paranoid, delusional conspiracy freaks which, I fear, we shall always have with us,,,though if we try real hard, we can minimize the damage they do,,,

    While the damage caused by the anti-vaxxers is pretty direct and devastating, other “anti-reality” groups can be damaging as well.

    For example, while less direct, consider the moon hoaxers. Imagine if they spent the same time and effort writing books about all the great things that came from the space program, looking at what was accomplished to get us to the Moon, and saying “why aren’t we still there?”

  31. kathleen johnson

    I’m tired of the Crazies! Vaccinations DO NOT CAUSE AUTISM! The increase in Autism is due to better more rigorous diagnosis of the problem. Previously these kids were called retarded and locked up in a room.

    Don’t vaccinate you kids and you will be facing more than flu pandemics in the future. Back in the early 1930′s my mother lost a whole year of her life to whooping cough because her parents didn’t trust the ‘new’ vaccination. She recovered, but do you want your kids quarantened from school for a year (or die) because you let them catch a preventable disease?

  32. Gary Ansorge:

    That’s ethyl mercury,Thimerosol, as opposed to methyl mercury, which is highly toxic.

    You mean, not all Mercury is the same? :-)

    Thimerosol is no longer used as a preservative in vaccines.

    Is it not used at all, or just used less? Also, I am aware of the fact that autism rates didn’t drop after its removal/lessening. Not that that stops the “Mercury in vaccinations causes autism” advocates.

    Check out the Center for Disease Control Vaccines page,,,most authoritative source I know.

    Will do. Thanks.

    Edit: CDC page: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/updates/thimerosal_faqs_thimerosal.htm

    BTW, is there a reason you use “,,,” rather than “…”?

  33. unvaccinated in Illinois

    I need some advice. I wasn’t given the MMR vaccine when I was a kid in the 60′s. I don’t know why. Now that I’m 46 should I have it done? I keep forgetting to ask my doctor when I’m in the office.

  34. Flavio

    @ Jim Lippard

    So true! It’s difficult to make a point if you use silly laughable fonts. Seriously.

  35. Thanks for the link Todd. :) In particular http://factsnotfantasy.com/vaccines.html That’s the info. The sub menu pages are quite telling as well.

  36. Mick

    Good to see there is still smart people here, thank goodness for tricky dick smith! ;)

    BTW Phil, you refer to the ABC as the “Australian Broadcasting Network”, when it’s actually the “Australian Broadcasting Corporation”. Just a small nitpick =)

  37. Jay

    @Jim Lippard:

    Nice catch on the font…

  38. @Ken B

    Thimerosal is still used to preserve some of the ingredients that going into vaccine production, I believe, but it is removed from the final product for nearly every vaccine used in the US. Thimerosal is still used in multi-dose formulations of vaccines (i.e., one vial provides multiple doses) that are used in other parts of the world, especially third-world countries, where storage facilities and economics make single-use vaccines prohibitive.

    Check out the site I linked to above (or click on my name) for other vaccine myths, but, as Gary said, the CDC is probably the best place to go, though I’ll add that the FDA has a lot of info on it, too.

  39. KC

    >You mean, not all Mercury is the same?

    Just wait until the antivaxxers find out we’ve been secretly putting Jupiter, Saturn and Venus in the vaccines too! Muu-hahahaha!

  40. juz

    ahh someone caught the ABC error. good, i can now read the rest of the article the nit picking grammer nazi that i am.
    great work other wise

  41. You forget you have to teach the controversy.

  42. Gary Ansorge

    Controversy is only controversy when both points of view are equivalent, meaning both sides of the discussion have real evidence but both sides have differing interpretations of the evidence. When you have one side with evidence and the other armed only with opinion, there IS no controversy.
    ,,,but there may be an argument,,,

    35. Ken B: “rather than” ??? In what context? I don’t recall that particular reference.

    GAry 7

  43. Some days it is just too easy.

  44. My wife pointed out that according to Dr. Sears in his vaccine book (“The Vaccine Book: Making the Right Decision for Your Child”, Sears, R.) pertussis vaccination wears off after a while, such that they have recently added a booster shot for teenagers. Given that it is highly contagious and that a large portion of the adult population probably do not have immunity … it is hard to say whether in any particular case the anti-vaccine lunatics are to blame. They certainly make things worse, but even if there were no anti-vaccine types the baby could have died from pertussis. It sounds like we’ll never get sufficient herd immunity from pertussis, which is rather unfortunate.

    BTW, as I understand it thimerosal is being /phased out/ of use in the US but is still in some vaccines. The CDC page someone posted earlier confirms this. Apparently it’s only trace amounts, though.

    Oh, and re Comic Sans: Why? WHY?! Argh.

  45. Dave

    So does that make a Poe squared? :)

    Mmmmm… Square Poes…..

  46. @Gary
    Ken B is refering to 3 commas instead of 3 dots. ,,, not …

  47. Hitler said teach the controversy because otherwise you get autism.

    I see your Poe squared and raise you a Godwin.

  48. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Vaccines are the way to go. My wife is a pediatric nurse, and currently 9 months pregnant. She’s been personally administering vaccines to kids for 5 years now without ever seeing an adverse reaction. Not once, out of who knows how many kids (probably hundreds, leading into the thousand range).

    Despite this really strong personal experience, we still did a TON of investigation into vaccines when she got pregnant. The bottom line was that the benefits far outweigh the very, very small risks.

    As far as autism goes, the truth is that anti-vaxers like to play that card because there isn’t much known about what triggers it. But studies have shown that of kids who are vaccinated and kids who are not, the same percentage develop autism. Another thing to remember is that some types of autism don’t appear at birth. Some come on suddenly, and usually around 6 months or 1 year. Because these are also popular milestones for vaccinations, anti-vaxxers are associating these unrelated events.

    Ultimately, the decision lies with every parent. In some cases, I could understand not vaccinating. But those situations are few and far between. Generally, you should just vaccinate.

  49. PhilB

    @23

    I probably will click on it anyway, but the thought of reading anything from Meryl Dorey makes my brain twitch.

    Todd W, thanks for re-posting that link. I’ve been needing that for a friend of mine.

  50. Scott R

    Just a clarification: Herd immunity is not too low in Sydney where people are generally well informed. It is low in the Byron Bay area, some 800 km north of Sydney – Byron Bay is known for its alternative culture atmosphere which unfortunately too often turns into plain ignorance.

    Shame on the VNC and antivaxxers everywhere!

  51. Fairly Unbalanced

    I posted this on museumofhoaxes.com (forum) under news.
    Keep spreading this post!

  52. Thorne

    @ #35 Ken B: “You mean, not all Mercury is the same? ”

    The mercury is the same, but the compounds are different. Both are toxic in large quantities, but ethyl mercury is rapidly excreted by the body, while methyl mercury builds up to toxic levels over time.

    It’s not unlike drinking ethanol (ethyl alcohol), which can get you blind drunk (and kill you if you overdo), or drinking methanol (methyl alcohol), which can make you blind permanently, or kill you, in even moderate doses.

    The nutballs out there see the word “mercury” and automatically assume the worst. A little knowledge of chemistry can go a long way towards preventing that kind of thing.

  53. tacitus

    The nutballs out there see the word “mercury” and automatically assume the worst. A little knowledge of chemistry can go a long way towards preventing that kind of thing.

    Sort of like telling people not to breath O2 after finding out that CO is toxic.

    (Yay Subscript tags work!)

  54. HCN

    John said “I lived in Panama and Venezuela 7 of my first ten years in the late 40s.”

    If you and I make it to TAM 8, we should have a conversation. I spent a good third of my youth in Panama and Venezuela. With about five out of the the years between 1968 to 1974.

  55. Nora Greenwell

    While some vaccinations are absolutely a great idea, the emerging trend of scaring the public into getting redundant – or even harmful – vaccines is prompting many to become wary of vaccines. There is plenty of evidence to support the claim that the H1N1 vaccine is not only useless in preventing the Swine Flu but that it makes the patient sicker and increases their chances of contracting Swine Flu.

    Common sense and a little research (and plenty of vitamin D) go a long way in these scenarios. However, the rapidly increasing profits of Big Pharma and its increasingly tighter ties with governments is terrifying. I can understand why some people are wary of vaccines in general.

  56. airtonix

    so will there reach a point where we as a community have no natural immunity to anything?

    forever relying on substances created in specialised environment where one out of a thousand people have the required training to understand how such things are made?

  57. @Nora Greenwell

    There is plenty of evidence to support the claim that the H1N1 vaccine is not only useless in preventing the Swine Flu but that it makes the patient sicker and increases their chances of contracting Swine Flu.

    Citation, please.

  58. tacitus

    There is plenty of evidence to support the claim that the H1N1 vaccine is not only useless in preventing the Swine Flu but that it makes the patient sicker and increases their chances of contracting Swine Flu.

    This is laughably false. They haven’t even begun testing the efficacy of any new vaccines yet. Last I heard they had just started safety trials.

  59. I elected not to vaccinate my son for HepB as an infant, based primarily on this study in the peer-reviewed Journal of Pediatric Diseases:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12182372

    which found a weak link between HepB and childhood asthma. Also, HepB is chiefly transmitted by sexual contact or shared needles, neither of which my infant was likely to experience. If he wants to get vaccinated against HepB as a teenager, we’ll cross that bridge when we come to it.

  60. John Foudy

    This is laughably false. They haven’t even begun testing the efficacy of any new vaccines yet.

    True, but Flu vaccines do not always work against the flu strains that end up being prevalent that season…

    But I wouldn’t compare flu vaccines which are constantly being reformulated because influenza is a moving target with other vaccines (measles, whooping cough etc)

  61. tacitus

    True, but Flu vaccines do not always work against the flu strains that end up being prevalent that season…

    Agreed, but you don’t have to hit the bulls-eye with the latest flu vaccine in order to be of some use. Conferring some resistance is still better than none. Certainly they need to give it the best college try, given the risks of not doing anything at all.

  62. Joe Meils

    What’s all this I hear about the AVN being in trouble again? Don’t these folks realize that it’s people’s right to watch adult entertainment in the privacy of thier own homes… Why it’s an outrage! Oh, wait…

    “Austrailian Vaccination Network…”?

    I Thought you meant “Adult Video News” (whew!)

    Nevermind!

  63. If you TRULY are interested in finding out the truth about this topic you are encouraged to attend the Fourth International Public Conference on Vaccines in Washington DC in October

    http://www.nvic.org/Events/overview.aspx

    The top experts in the world on this topic will be presenting and you can really understand the science rather than criticize individuals out of your ignorance.

  64. @J.P.H.

    which found a weak link between HepB and childhood asthma.

    Perhaps you missed this part of the abstract:

    There is no association between diphtheria, tetanus and whole cell pertussis vaccine, oral polio vaccine or measles, mumps and rubella vaccine and the risk of asthma. The weak associations for Hib and hepatitis B vaccines seem to be at least partially accounted for by health care utilization or information bias.

    You also mentioned that:

    HepB is chiefly transmitted by sexual contact or shared needles, neither of which my infant was likely to experience.

    Please note this information from the CDC on how HepB is transmitted (emphasis added by me):

    Transmission: Contact with infectious blood, semen, and other body fluids from having sex with an infected person, sharing contaminated needles to inject drugs, or from an infected mother to her newborn.

    While HepB is primarily transmitted through sex and drug use, there are other modes of transmission. I also found the following information on why infants are recommended to receive HepB vaccination, from the vaccineinformation.org (http://www.vaccineinformation.org/hepb/qandavax.asp):

    Why is this vaccine recommended for all babies when most of them won’t be exposed to HBV for many years, if then?
    There are three basic reasons for recommending that all infants receive hepatitis B vaccine, starting at birth.

    First, babies and young children have a very high risk for developing chronic HBV infection if they become infected at a young age.

    It is estimated that about 1 out of 3 of the nearly 1 million Americans with chronic HBV infection acquired their infection as infants or young children. Those with chronic HBV infection are most likely to spread the infection to others. Infants and children who become chronically infected have an increased risk of dying prematurely from liver cancer or cirrhosis.

    In contrast to other vaccine-preventable diseases of childhood, HBV infection in infants and young children usually produces no symptoms. Thus, the small number of reported cases of hepatitis B among children represents the tip of the iceberg of all HBV infections in children. For every child with symptoms of hepatitis B, there are at least 100 HBV-infected children with no symptoms—hence the increased risk to spread the infection to others without knowing it.

    Second, early childhood infection occurs. About 16,000 children under 10 years of age were infected with HBV every year in the United States before routine infant hepatitis B vaccination was recommended. Although these infections represented few of all HBV infections in the United States, it is estimated that 18 out of 100 people with chronic HBV infection in the United States acquired their infection during early childhood. Clearly, infections occur among unvaccinated infants born to mothers who are not HBV-infected. In addition, unvaccinated foreign-born children account for a high proportion of infections. More effort needs to be placed on vaccinating these unprotected children.

    Most early childhood spread of HBV occurs in households where a person has chronic HBV infection, but the spread of HBV has also been recognized in daycare centers and schools. The most probable ways children become infected with HBV are from skin puncture (e.g., biting) or from having their mucous membranes or cuts and scratches come in contact with infectious body fluids from an HBV-infected person. HBV remains infectious for at least seven days outside the body and can be found on and spread through sharing of inanimate objects such as washcloths or toothbrushes.

    Third, long-term protection following infant vaccination is expected to last for decades and will ultimately protect against acquiring infection at any age.

  65. jojo

    uh. devastating? if you say so

  66. Dr. Mercola said:

    If you TRULY are interested in finding out the truth about this topic you are encouraged to attend the Fourth International Public Conference on Vaccines in Washington DC in October

    [web site snipped]

    The top experts in the world on this topic will be presenting and you can really understand the science rather than criticize individuals out of your ignorance.

    Perhaps we should have a large showing at that conference. Perhaps some real science could be presented to counter the pseudoscience offered by NVIC.

  67. @Todd W.

    Perhaps you missed this part of the abstract:

    Actually I read the entire article, not just the abstract, and found their explanation for the apparent HepB-asthma association to be not entirely convincing.

    from an infected mother to her newborn.

    My wife was tested for HepB during her pregnancy and was found not to be infected. So this is moot with respect to my son.

    About 16,000 children under 10 years of age were infected with HBV every year in the United States before routine infant hepatitis B vaccination was recommended. … Most early childhood spread of HBV occurs in households where a person has chronic HBV infection, but the spread of HBV has also been recognized in daycare centers and schools.

    Neither my wife nor I are infected with HepB, which would put my son at a fairly low risk of infection, relatively speaking. He is not in school yet and does not attend day care.

    It might make sense to vaccinate him prior to starting school. That, however, does not mean that it makes sense to vaccinate all infants as is recommended. Especially given a child following the normal recommended vaccination schedule will already be in a doctor’s office at age 2 mo. for DTaP, Hib, etc.

    I can only assume that HepB is recommended for all infants to account for the fact that some mothers will not have been tested prior to giving birth, and mother-to-child transmission is a distinct possibility. Since my wife was tested, however, having the vaccination at age “1 day” doesn’t seem hugely important.

  68. rvk

    According to a CDC epidemiologist Tom Verstraeten, who had analyzed the agency’s massive database containing the medical records of 100,000 children, a mercury-based preservative in the vaccines — thimerosal — appeared to be responsible for a dramatic increase in autism and a host of other neurological disorders among children….

  69. If you TRULY are interested in finding out the truth about this topic you are encouraged to attend the Fourth International Public Conference on Vaccines in Washington DC in October

    The top experts in the world on this topic will be presenting and you can really understand the science rather than criticize individuals out of your ignorance.

    The real story of the “conference” Dr. Mercola is advertising:

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/08/dr_bob_sears_stealth_anti-vaccinationist.php

    Do check out the video of one of the speakers, Dr. David Ayoub, an aficionado of New World Order conspiracy theories involving the Illuminati, charges that the vaccination program is in reality a mass sterilization program for population control akin to genocide, and all other manner of craziness.

    Basically, Dr. Mercola’s conference is a quackfest of anti-vaccine zealots.

    BTW, if Dr. Mercola is really interested in the science of vaccines, I encourage him to read this:

    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?cat=36

  70. Oh, and if Dr. Mercola wants a discussion of the science, he should check out this:

    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?cat=36

    And for a mix of science and snark, this:

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/medicine/antivaccination_lunacy/

  71. BTW, if Dr. Mercola is really interested in the science of vaccines, I encourage him to read this:

    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?cat=36

  72. so will there reach a point where we as a community have no natural immunity to anything?

    I doubt there can ever be vaccines for every disease out there, nor would it be cost effective to try and create those vaccines.

    If vaccines disappear some day (which seems to be your concern), then the worst that will happen is people go back to getting immunity the way they did before vaccines came along: by children getting sick a lot more.

    In the meantime, continue enjoying the benefits of living in an industrial society that can only exist by relying on specialists in a vast array of fields.

  73. Mark Hansen

    J.P.H.
    …I can only assume that HepB is recommended for all infants to account for the fact that some mothers will not have been tested prior to giving birth, and mother-to-child transmission is a distinct possibility. Since my wife was tested, however, having the vaccination at age “1 day” doesn’t seem hugely important.

    Except that, as you point out, there will be some untested mothers and that there may be some infected children due to this. As Todd points out, there are some ways of transmission that are all too easy at child care centres or schools. There is, unfortunately, at least one other way. Needle stick from a junkie’s discarded needle. They don’t tend to leave them in needle disposal bins, preferring to just drop them when done. Trains, buses, and schoolyards are just some of the places they use. And kids are curious and love to touch.

  74. Kieran

    I knew there was a reason Dick Smith was my favourite store, aside from all the electronics.

  75. free-thinker

    Lots of peer-reviewed research showing ill-effects of vaccines:

    Bichel, “Post-vaccinial Lymphadenitis Developing into Hodgkin’s Disease”, Acta Med Scand, 1976, Vol 199, p523-525.

    Stewart, AM, et al, “Aetiology of Childhood Leukaemia”, Lancet, 16 Oct, 1965, 2:789-790. [Listed under Vaccine Adverse Reactions.]

    Glathe, H et al, “Evidence of Tumorigenic Activity of Candidate Cell Substrate in Vaccine Production by the Use of Anti-Lymphocyte Serum”, Development Biol Std, 1977, 34:145-148.

    Bolognesi, DP, “Potential Leukemia Virus Subunit Vaccines: Discussion”, Can Research, Feb 1976, 36(2 pt 2):655-656.

    Colon, VF, et al, “Vaccinia Necrosum as a Clue to Lymphatic Lymphoma”, Geriatrics, Dec 1968, 23:81-82.

    Park-Dincsoy, H et al, “Lymphoid Depletion in a case of Vaccinia Gangrenosa”, Laval Med, Jan 1968, 39:24-26.

    Hugoson, G et al, “The Occurrence of Bovine Leukosis Following the Introduction of Babesiosis Vaccination”, Bibl Haemat, 1968, 30:157-161.

    Hartstock, , “”Post-vaccinial Lymphadenitis: Hyperplasia of Lymphoid Tissue That Simulates Malignant Lymphomas”, Apr 1968, Cancer, 21(4):632-649.

    Allerberger, F, “An Outbreak of Suppurative Lymphadenitis Connected with BCG Vaccination in Austria- 1990/1991,” Am Rev Respir Disorder, Aug 1991, 144(2) 469.

    Omokoku B, Castells S, “Post-DPT inoculation cervical lymphadenitis in children.” N Y State J Med 1981 Oct;81(11):1667-1668. Vaccines and Chromosome Changes Leading to Mutations:

    Knuutila, S et al, “An Increased Frequency of Chromosomal Changes and SCE’s in Cultured Lymphocytes of 12 Subjects Vaccinated Against Smallpox,” Hum Genet, 1978 Feb 23; 41(1):89-96.

    Cherkeziia, SE, et al, “Disorders in the Murine Chromosome Apparatus Induced By Immunization with a Complex of Anti-viral Vaccines,” Vopr Virusol, 1979 Sept Oct, (5):547-550.

    [Note: SCE means sister chromatid exchange and is an indication that genetic mutations are occurring, which could possibly lead to cancer-causing mutations. Vaccines and Auto-immunity Citations:

    Romanov, V A, et al, "Role of Auto-immune Processes in the Pathogenesis of Post-Vaccinal Lesions of the Nervous System", Oct 1977, Zh Mikrobiol Epidemiol Immunobiol, 10:80-83.

    Grachev, V P, et al, "Formation of Auto-antibodies in Laboratory Animals After Inoculation of Viruses With Different Virulence. I. Results of Studies ..., July 1973, Acta Virol (Praha), 17:319-326.

    Movsesiants, AA, et al, "Experimental Study of the Ability of Different Strains of Vaccinia Virus to Induce Auto-Antibody Formation", Vopr Virusol, May-Jun 1975; (3):297-302.

    Negina, IuP, "Comparative Study of Auto-antibody Formation Following Immunization With Different Types of Typhoid Vaccines", Zh Mikrobiol Epidemiol Immunobiol, May 1980; (5):69-72. Vaccinations and Diabetes Citations:

    Sinaniotis, et al, "Diabetes Mellitus after Mumps Vaccination", Arc Dis Child, 1975, 50:749.66

    Polster, H, "Diabetes insipidus after Smallpox vaccination", Z Aerztl Fortbild (Jena), 1 Apr 1966, 60:429-432.

    Patan, "Postvaccinal Severe Diabetes Mellitus", Ter Arkh, Jul 1968, 40:117-118.

    Classen, JB, MD, "The Timing of Immunization Affects The Development of Diabetes in Rodents", Autoimmunity, 1996, 24:137-145.

    Classen JB, "The diabetes epidemic and the hepatitis B vaccines," N Z Med J, 109(1030):366 1996 Sep 27. [letter]

    Classen JB, “Childhood immunisation and diabetes mellitus,” N Z Med J, 109(1022):195 1996 May 24 [letter]

    Poutasi K, ” Immunisation and diabetes,” N Z Med J 1996 Jul 26;109(1026):283. [letter; comment] Other Articles Linking Diabetes to Vaccines:

    Dokheel, T M, “An Epidemic of Childhood Diabetes in the United States? Evidence from ….”, Diabetes Care, 1993, 16:1606-1611.

    Parent ME, et al, “Bacille Calmette-Guerin vaccination and incidence of IDDM in Montreal, Canada,” Diabetes Care 1997 May; 20(5):767-772.

    House DV, Winter WE, “Autoimmune diabetes. The role of auto-antibody markers in the prediction and prevention of insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus,” Clin Lab Med 1997 Sep; 17(3):499-545.

    Zeigler, M et al , “[Autoantibodies in type 1 diabetes mellitus]” Z Arztl Fortbild (Jena). 1994 Aug; 88(7-8):561-5 Vaccines and Nervous System Changes:

    Bondarev, VN et al, “The Changes of the Nervous System in Children After Vaccination”, Pediatria, Jun 1969; 48:20-24.

    Ehrengut W, “Central nervous sequelae of vaccinations,” Lancet 1986 May 31;1(8492):1275-1276.

    Provvidenza, G et al, [On a Case of Benign Acute Cerebellar Ataxia in Childhood], Arch Ital Sci Med Trop, 43:189-194, Apr 1962.

    Katsilambros, L, “[The Phenomenom of Apathy in Man and Animals After the Injection of Viruses in Very High Doses. Clinical Data]“, Rev Med Moyen Orient, 20:539-546, Nov – Dec 1963. Vaccinations and Autism Citations:

    Eggers, C, “Autistic Syndrome (Kanner) And Vaccinations against Smallpox”, Klin Paediatr, Mar 1976, 188(2):172-180.

    Kiln MR, “Autism, inflammatory bowel disease, and MMR vaccine.” Lancet 1998 May 2;351(9112):1358.

    Selway, “MMR vaccination and autism 1998. Medical practitioners need to give more than reassurance.” BMJ 1998 Jun 13;316(7147):1824.

    Nicoll A, Elliman D, Ross E, “MMR vaccination and autism 1998,” MJ 1998 Mar 7;316(7133):715-716.

    Lindley K J, Milla PJ, “Autism, inflammatory bowel disease, and MMR vaccine.”Lancet 1998 Mar 21;351(9106):907-908.

    Bedford H, et al, “Autism, inflammatory bowel disease, and MMR vaccine.” Lancet 1998 Mar 21;351(9106):907.

    Vijendra K. Singh, Sheren X. Lin, and Victor C. Yang, “Serological Association of Measles Virus and Human Herpesvirus-6 with Brain Autoantibodies in Autism,” Clinical Immunology and Immunopathology, Oct 1998, Vol. 89, No. 1, p 105-108. ["None of the autistic children in the study had measles in the past, but all had the MMR" stated David Whalgren. Vaccines and Demyelination Citations:

    Herroelen, L et al, "Central-Nervous-System Demyelination After Immunization with Recombinant Hepatitis B Vaccine", Lancet, Nov 9, 1991, 338(8776):1174-1175.

    Kaplanski G, Retornaz F, Durand J, Soubeyrand J, "Central nervous system demyelination after vaccination against hepatitis B and HLA haplotype." J Neurol Neurosurg Psychiatry 1995 Jun; 58(6):758-759.

    Matyszak MK, Perry VH, "Demyelination in the central nervous system following a delayed-type hypersensitivity response to bacillus Calmette-Guerin." Neuroscience 1995 Feb;64(4):967-977.

    Tornatore CS, Richert JR, "CNS demyelination associated with diploid cell rabies vaccine." Lancet 1990 Jun 2;335(8701):1346-1347.

    Adams, JM et al, "Neuromyelitis Optica: Severe Demyelination Occurring Years After Primary Smallpox Vaccinations", Rev Roum Neurol, 1973, 10:227-231.

    In 1988, Dietrich used MRI to show that developmentally delayed children had alterations in their myelin. Coulter described that central nervous system damage can be exhibited as abnormal behavior of the child. In 1935, Thomas Rivers, experimental allergic encephalitis (EAE) can be the result of a viral or bacterial infection of the nervous system. "The fact of the matter is that it is a matter of record that it was known that vaccination produced encephalitis since 1926." The authors stated, "In regions in which there is no organized vaccination of the population, general paralysis is rare. ... It is impossible to deny a connection between vaccinations and the encephalitis (brain damage) which follows it." Vaccines have been linked to seizures, convulsions and epilepsy. Vaccinations and Seizures:

    Hirtz DG, Nelson KB, Ellenberg J H, "Seizures following childhood immunizations", Pediatr 1983 Jan; 102(1):14-18.

    Cherry JD, Holtzman AE, Shields WD, Buch D, Nielsen, "Pertussis immunization and characteristics related to first seizures in infants and children,"J Pediatr 1993 Jun;122(6):900-903.

    Coplan J, "Seizures following immunizations," J Pediatr 1983 Sep;103(3):496.

    Barkin RM, Jabhour JT, Samuelson J S, "Immunizations, seizures, and subsequent evaluation," JAMA 1987 Jul 10;258(2):201.

    Griffin MR, et al, "Risk of seizures after measles-mumps-rubella immunization," Pediatrics 1991 Nov;88(5):881-885.

    Griffin MR, et al, "Risk of seizures and encephalopathy after immunization with the diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis vaccine," JAMA 1990 Mar 23-30;263(12):1641-1645.

    Cizewska S, Huber Z, Sluzewski W, "[Prophylactic inoculations and seizure activity in the EEG],” Neurol Neurochir Pol 1981 Sep-Dec;15(5-6):553-557. [Article in Polish]

    Huttenlocher PR, Hapke RJ, “A follow-up study of intractable seizures in childhood.” Ann Neurol 1990 Nov; 28(5):699-705.

    Blumberg DA, “Severe reactions associated with diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis vaccine: detailed study of children with seizures, hypotonic-hypo-responsive episodes, high fevers, and persistent crying.”Pediatrics 1993 Jun; 91(6):1158-1165. Vaccinations and Convulsions Citations:

    Prensky AL, et al, “History of convulsions and use of pertussis vaccine,” J Pediatr 1985 Aug; 107(2):244-255.

    Baraff LJ, “Infants and children with convulsions and hypotonic-hypo-responsive episodes following diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis immunization: follow-up evaluation,” Pediatrics 1988 Jun; 81(6):789-794.

    Jacobson V, “Relationship of pertussis immunization to the onset of epilepsy, febrile convulsions and central nervous system infections: a retrospective epidemiologic study,” Tokai J Exp Clin Med 1988;13 Suppl: 137-142.

    Cupic V,et al, “[Role of DTP vaccine in the convulsive syndromes in children],” Lijec Vjesn 1978 Jun; 100(6):345-348. [Article in Serbo-Croatian (Roman)]

    Pokrovskaia NIa, “[Convulsive syndrome in DPT vaccination (a clinico-experimental study)],” Pediatriia 1983 May;(5):37-39. [Article in Russian] Vaccinations and Epilepsy Citations:

    Ballerini, Ricci, B, et al, “On Neurological Complications of Vaccination, With Special Reference to Epileptic Syndromes,” Riv Neurol, Jul-Aug 1973, 43:254-258.

    Wolf SM, Forsythe A, “Epilepsy and mental retardation following febrile seizures in childhood,” Acta Paediatr Scand 1989 Mar;78(2):291-295. ________________________________________ Vaccines and Brain Swelling:

    Iwasa, S et al, “Swelling of the Brain in Mice Caused by Pertussis … Quantitative Determination and the Responsibility of the Vaccine”, Jpn J Med Sci Biol, 1985 , 38(2):53-65.

    Mathur R, Kumari S, “Bulging fontanel following triple vaccine.” Indian Pediatr 1981 Jun;18(6):417-418.

    Barry W, Lenney W, Hatcher G, “Bulging fontanelles in infants without meningitis.” Arch Dis Child 1989 Apr;64(4):635-636.

    Shendurnikar N, “Bulging fontanel following DPT” Indian Pediatr 1986 Nov;23(11):960.

    Gross TP, Milstien JB, Kuritsky JN, “Bulging fontanelle after immunization with diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis vaccine and diphtheria-tetanus vaccine.” J Pediatr 1989 Mar;114(3):423-425.

    Jacob J, Mannino F, “Increased intracranial pressure after diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis immunization.” Am J Dis Child 1979 Feb;133(2):217-218.

    Dugmore, WN, “Bilateral Oedema at the Posterior Pole. Hypersensitivity Reaction to Alavac P injection.” Br J Ophthalmol, Dec 1972, 55:848-849. Vaccines and Neurological Damage

    Nedar P R, and Warren, R J, “Reported Neurological Disorders Following Live Measles Vaccine”, 1968, Ped, 41:997-1001.

    Paradiso, G et al, “Multifocal Demyelinating Neuropathy after Tetanus Vaccine”, Medicina (B Aires), 1990, 50(1):52-54.

    Landrigan, PJ, Whitte, J, “Neurologic Disorders Following Live Measles-virus Vaccination”, JAMA, Mar 26, 1973, v223(13):1459-1462.

    Turnbull, H M, “Encephalomyelitis Following Vaccination”, Brit Jour Exper Path, 7:181, 1926.

    Kulenkampff, M et al, “Neurological Complications of Pertussis Inoculation”, Arch Dis Child, 1974, 49:46.

    Strom, J, “Further Experience of Reactions, Especially of a Cerebral Nature in Conjunction with Triple Vaccination”, Brit Med Jour, 1967, 4:320-323.

    Berg, J M, “Neurological Complications of Pertussis Immunization,” Brit Med Jour, July 5,1958; p 24.

    Bondarev, VN et al, “The Changes of the Nervous System in Children After Vaccination”, Pediatria, Jun 1969; 48:20-24.

    Badalian, LO, “Vaccinal Lesions of the Nervous System in Children,” Vop Okhr Materin Dets, Dec 1959, 13:54-59

    Lorentz, IT, et al, “Post-Vaccinal Sensory Polyneuropathy with Myoclonus”, Proc Aust Ass Neurol, 1969, 6:81-86.

    Trump, R C, White, T R, “Cerebellar Ataxia Presumed Due To Live Attenuated Measles Virus Vaccine,” JAMA, 1967, 199:165-166.

    Allerdist, H, “Neurological Complications Following Measles Vaccination”, Inter Symp, Brussels, 1978, Development Biol Std, Vol 43, 259-264.

    Finley, K H, “Pathogenesis of Encephalitis Occurring With Vaccination, Variola and Measles, Arch Neur and Psychologist, 1938; 39:1047-1054.

    Froissart, M et al, “Acute Meningoencephalitis Immediately after an Influenza Vaccination”, Lille Med, Oct 1978, 23(8):548-551.

    Pokrovskaia, Nia, et al, “Neurological Complications in Children From Smallpox Vaccination”, Pediatriia, Dec 1978, (12):45-49.

    Allerdist, H, “Neurological Complications Following Measles Virus Vaccination. Evaluation of the Cases seen Between 1971-1977″, Monatsschr Kinderheilkd, Jan 1979, 127(1): 23-28.

    Ehrengut, W et al, “On Convulsive Reactions Following Oral vaccination Against Polio”, Klin Paediatr, May 1979, 191(3):261-270.

    Naumova, R P, et al, “Encephalitis Developing After Vaccination without a Local Skin Reaction”, Vrach Delo, Jul 1979, (7):114-115.

    Goswamy, BM, “Neurological Complications After Smallpox Vaccination”, J Ass Phys India, Jan 1969, 17:41-43.

    Schchelkunov, SN et al, “The Role of Viruses in the Induction of Allergic Encephalomyelitis,” Dokl Akad Nauk SSSR, 1990,315(1):252-255. [Vaccines contain viruses, too]

    Walker AM, “Neurologic events following diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis immunization,” Pediatrics 1988 Mar;81(3):345-349.

    Shields WD, et al, “Relationship of pertussis immunization to the onset of neurologic disorders: a retrospective epidemiologic study,” J Pediatr 1988 Nov; 113(5):801-805.

    Wilson J, “Proceedings: Neurological complications of DPT inoculation in infancy,” Arch Dis Child 1973 Oct; 48(10):829-830.

    Iakunin IuA, “[Nervous system complications in children after preventive vaccinations],” Pediatriia 1968 Nov; 47(11):19-26. [Article in Russian]

    Greco D, et al, “Case-control study on encephalopathy associated with diphtheria-tetanus immunization in Campania, Italy,” Bull World Health Organ 1985;63(5):919-925.

    Ehrengut W at Institute of Vaccinology and Virology, Hamburg, Germany states, “Bias in the evaluation of CNS complications following pertussis immunization are the following: 1) Notifications of post-immunization adverse events, 2) Publications by vaccine producers on the frequency of adverse reactions, 3) Comparison of permanent brain damage after DPT and DT immunization, 4) Pro-immunization, 5) Immunization associated viral encephalitis, 6) Accuracy of statistics, 7) Personal. A review of these points indicates an underestimation of CNS complications after pertussis immunization.”

    Reference: Ehrengut W, “Bias in evaluating CNS complications following pertussis immunization.” Acta Paediatr Jpn, 1991 Aug; 33(4):421-427. Vaccinations and Unexplained Diseases:

    Hiner, E E, Frasch, C E, “Spectrum of Disease Due to Haemophilus Influenza Type B Occurring in Vaccinated Children”, J Infect Disorder, 1988 Aug; 158(2): 343-348.

    Olin P, Romanus, V, Storsaeter, J, “Invasive Bacterial Infections During an Efficiacy Trial of Acellular Pertussis Vaccines — Implications For Future Surveilance In Pertussis Vaccine Programmes”, Tokai J Exp Clin Med, 1988; 13 Suppl: 143-144.

    Storsaeter, J, et al, “Mortality and Morbidity From Invasive Bacterial Infections During a Clinical Trial of Acellular Pertussis Vaccines in Sweden”, Pediatr Infect Disorder J, 1988 Sept; 7(9):637-645.

    Vadheim, CM, et al, “Effectiveness and Safety of an Haemophilus Influenzae type b Conjugate Vaccine (PRP-T) in Young Infants. Kaiser-UCLA Vaccine Study Group,” Pediartics, 1993 Aug; 92(2):272-279. [The vaccines caused fevers, irritability, crying, and seizures, but were declared to be "safe and ... effective ... ".]

    Stickl, H, “Estimation of Vaccination Damage”, Med Welt, Oct 14, 1972, 23:1495-1497.

    Waters, VV, et al, “Risk Factors for Measles in a Vaccinated Population”, JAMA, Mar 27, 1991, 265(12): 1527.

    Stickl, H, “Iatrogenic Immuno-suppression as a Result of Vaccination”, Fortschr Med, Mar 5, 1981, 99(9);289-292. Vaccine Citations Linking the Vaccine to the “prevented” Disease:

    Nkowane, et al, “Vaccine-Associated Paralytic Poliomyelitis, US 1973 through 1984, JAMA, 1987, Vol 257:1335-1340.

    Quast, et al, “Vaccine Induced Mumps-like Diseases”, nd, Int Symp on Immun, Development Bio Stand, Vol 43, p269-272.

    Green, C et al, “A Case of Hepatitis Related to Etretinate Therapy and Hepatitis B Vaccine”, Dermatologica, 1991, 182(2):119-120.

    Shasby, DM, et al, “Epidemic Measles in Highly Vaccinated Population”, NEJM, Mar 1977, 296(11): 585-589.

    Tesovic, G et al, “Aseptic Meningitis after Measles, Mumps and Rubella Vaccine”, Lancet, Jun 12, 1993, 341(8859):1541.

    Johnson, RH, et al, “Nosocomial Vaccinia Infection”, West J Med, Oct 1976, 125(4):266-270.

    Malengreau, M, “Reappearance of Post-Vaccination Infection of Measles, Rubella, and Mumps. Should Adolescents be re-vaccinated?” Pedaitric, 1992;47(9):597-601 (25 ref)

    Basa, SN, “Paralytic Poliomyelitis Following Inoculation With Combined DTP Prophylactic. A review of Sixteen cases with Special Reference to Immunization Schedules in Infancy”, J Indian Med Assoc, Feb 1, 1973, 60:97-99.

    Landrigan, PJ et al, “Measles in Previously Vaccinated Children in Illinois”, Ill Med J, Arp 1974, 141:367-372.

    NA, “Vaccine-Associated Poliomyelitis”, Med J Aust, Oct 1973, 2:795-796. Vaccine Failures Citations:

    Hardy, GE, Jr, et al, “The Failure of a School Immunization Campaign to Terminate an Urban Epidemic of Measles,” Amer J Epidem, Mar 1970; 91:286-293.

    Cherry, JD, et al, “A Clinical and Serologic Study of 103 Children With Measles Vaccine Failure”, J Pediatr, May 1973; 82:801-808.

    Jilg, W, et al, “Inoculation Failure Following Hepatitis B Vaccination”, Dtsch Med wochenschr, 1990 Oct 12; 115(41):1514-1548.

    Plotkin, SA, “Failures of Protection by Measles Vaccine,” J Pediatr, May 1973; 82:798-801.

    Bolotovskii, V, et al, “Measles Incidence Among Children Properly Vaccinated Against This Infection”, ZH Mikrobiol Epidemiol Immunobiol, 1974; 00(5):32-35.

    Landrigan, PJ, et al, “Measles in Previously Vaccinated Children in Illinois”, Ill Med J, Apr 1974; 141:367-372.

    Strebel, P et al, “An Outbreak of Whooping Cough in a Highly Vaccinated Urban Community”, J Trop Pediatr, Mar 1991, 37(2): 71-76.

    Forrest, JM, et al, “Failure of Rubella Vaccination to Prevent Congenital Rubella,”Med J Aust, 1977 Jan 15; 1(3): 77.

    Jilg, W, “Unsuccessful Vaccination against Hepatitis B”, Dtsch Med Wochenschr, Nov 16, 1990, 115(46):1773.

    Coles, FB, et al, “An Outbreak of Influenza A (H3N2) in a Well-Immunized Nursing home Population,” J Am ger Sociologist, Jun 1992, 40(6):589-592.

    Jilg, W, et al, “Inoculation Failure following Hepatitis B Vaccination,” Dtsch Med Wochenschr, Oct 12, 1990, 115(41):1545-1548.

    Hartmann, G et al, “Unsuccessful Inoculation against Hepatitis B,” Dtsch Med Wochenschr, May 17, 1991, 116(20): 797.

    Buddle, BM et al, “Contagious Ecthyma Virus-Vaccination Failures”, Am J Vet Research, Feb 1984, 45(2):263-266.

    Mathias, R G, “Whooping Cough In Spite of Immunization”, Can J Pub Health, 1978 Mar/Apr; 69(2):130-132.

    Osterholm, MT, et al, “Lack of Efficacy of Haemophilus b Polysacharide Vaccine in Minnesota”, JAMA, 1988 Sept 9; 260(10:1423-1428.

    Johnson, RH, et al, “Nosocomial Vaccinia Infection”, West J Med, Oct 1976, 125(4):266-270. Vaccines Causing Another Vaccinal Disease:

    Basa, SN, “Paralytic Poliomyelitis Following Inoculation With Combined DTP Prophylactic. A review of Sixteen cases with Special Reference to Immunization Schedules in Infancy”, J Indian Med Assoc, Feb 1, 1973, 60:97-99.

    Pathel, JC, et al, “Tetanus Following Vaccination Against Small-pox”, J Pediatr, Jul 1960; 27:251-263.

    Favez, G, “Tuberculous Superinfection Following a Smallpox Re-Vaccination”, Praxis, July 21, 1960; 49:698-699.

    Quast, Ute, and Hennessen, “Vaccine-Induced Mumps-like Diseases”, Intern Symp on Immunizations , Development Bio Stand, Vol 43, p 269-272.

    Forrest, J M, et al, “Clinical Rubella Eleven months after Vaccination,” Lancet, Aug 26, 1972, 2:399-400.

    Dittman, S, “Atypical Measles after Vaccination”, Beitr Hyg Epidemiol, 19891, 25:1-274 (939 ref)

    Sen S, et al, “Poliomyelitis in Vaccinated Children”, Indian Pediatr, May 1989, 26(5): 423-429.

    Arya, SC, “Putative Failure of Recombinant DNA Hepatitis B Vaccines”, Vaccine, Apr 1989, 7(2): 164-165.

    Lawrence, R et al, “The Risk of Zoster after Varicella Vaccination in Children with Leukemia”, NEJM, Mar 3, 1988, 318(9): 543-548. Vaccination Citations and Death

    Na, “DPT Vaccination and Sudden Infant Death – Tennessee, US Dept HEW, MMWR Report, Mar 23, 1979, vol 28(11): 132.

    Arevalo, “Vaccinia Necrosum. Report on a Fatal Case”, Bol Ofoc Sanit Panamer, Aug 1967, 63:106-110.

    Connolly, J H, Dick, G W, Field, CM, “A Case of Fatal Progressive Vaccinia”, Brit Med Jour, 12 May 1962; 5288:1315-1317.

    Aragona, F, “Fatal Acute Adrenal Insufficiency Caused by Bilateral Apoplexy of the Adrenal Glands (WFS) following Anti-poliomyelitis Vaccination”, Minerva Medicolegale, Aug 1960; 80:167-173.

    Moblus, G et al, “Pathological-Anatomical Findings in Cases of Death Following Poliomyelitis and DPT Vaccination”, Dtsch Gesundheitsw, Jul 20, 1972, 27:1382-1386.

    NA, “Immunizations and Cot Deaths”, Lancet, Sept 25, 1982, np.

    Goetzeler, A, “Fatal Encephalitis after Poliomyelitis Vaccination”, 22 Jun 1961, Muenchen Med Wschr, 102:1419-1422.

    Fulginiti, V, “Sudden Infant Death Syndrome, Diphtheria-Tetanus Toxoid-Pertussis Vaccination and Visits to the Doctor: Chance Association or Cause and Effect?”, Pediatr Infect Disorder, Jan-Feb 1983, 2(1): 7-11.

    Baraff, LJ, et al, “Possible Temporal Association Between Diphtheria-tetanus toxoid-Pertussis Vaccination and Sudden Infant Death Syndrome”, Pediatr Infect Disorder, Jan-Feb 1983, 2(1): 5-6.

    Reynolds, E, “Fatal Outcome of a Case of Eczema Vaccinatum”, Lancet, 24 Sept 1960, 2:684-686.

    Apostolov. et al, “Death of an Infant in Hyperthermia After Vaccination”, J Clin Path, Mar 1961, 14:196-197.

    Bouvier-Colle, MH, “Sex-Specific Differences in Mortality After High-Titre Measles Vaccination”, Rev Epidemiol Sante Publique, 1995; 43(1): 97.

    Stewart GT, “Deaths of infants after triple vaccine.”, Lancet 1979 Aug 18;2(8138):354-355.

    Flahault A, “Sudden infant death syndrome and diphtheria/tetanus toxoid/pertussis/poliomyelitis immunisation.”, Lancet 1988 Mar 12;1(8585):582-583.

    Larbre, F et al, “Fatal Acute Myocarditis After Smallpox Vaccination”, Pediatrie, Apr-May 1966, 21:345-350.

    Mortimer EA Jr, “DTP and SIDS: when data differ”, Am J Public Health 1987 Aug; 77(8):925-926. Vaccines and Metabolism Citations:

    Deutsch J, ” [Temperature changes after triple-immunization in infant age],” Padiatr Grenzgeb 1976;15(1):3-6. [Article in German]

    NA, “[Temperature changes after triple immunization in childhood],” Padiatr Grenzgeb 1976;15(1):7-10. [Article in German]

    [Considering that the thyroid controls our Basal Metabolism, it would appear that vaccines altered (depressed) thyroid activity.] Vaccines Altering Resistance to Disease:

    Burmistrova AL, “[Change in the non-specific resistance of the body to influenza and acute respiratory diseases following immunization diphtheria-tetanus vaccine],” Zh Mikrobiol Epidemiol Immunobiol 1976; (3):89-91. [Article in Russian] Vaccinations and Deafness Citations: So I did a background check to see if there was any scientific evidence linking vaccines to deafness and hearing loss. Here are some of the articles I found:

    Kaga, “Unilateral Total Loss of Auditory and Vestibular Function as a Complication of Mumps Vaccination”, Int J Ped Oto, Feb 1998, 43(1):73-73

    Nabe-Nielsen, Walter, “Unilateral Total Deafness as a Complication of the Measles- Mumps- Rubella Vaccination”, Scan Audio Suppl, 1988, 30:69-70

    Hulbert, et al, “Bilateral Hearing Loss after Measles and Rubella Vaccination in an Adult”, NEJM, 1991 July, 11;325(2):134

    Healy, “Mumps Vaccine and Nerve Deafness”, Am J Disorder Child, 1972 Jun; 123(6):612

    Jayarajan, Sedler, “Hearing Loss Following Measles Vaccination”, J Infect, 1995 Mar; 30(2):184-185

    Pialoux, P et al, “Vaccinations and Deafness”, Ann Otolaryng (Paris), Dec 1963, 80:1012-1013.

    Angerstein, W, et al, “Solitary Hearing and Equilibrium Damage After Vaccinations”, Gesundheitswesen, May 1995, 57(5): 264-268.

    Brodsky, Stanievich, “Sensorineural Hearing Loss Following Live Measles Virus Vaccination”, Int J Ped Oto, 1985 Nov; 10(2):159-163

    Koga, et al, “Bilateral Acute Profound Deafness After MMR Vaccination- Report of a Case”, Nippon Jibiin Gakkai Kai, 1991 Aug;94(8):1142-5

    Seiferth, LB, “Deafness after Oral Poliomyelitis Vaccination – a Case Report and Review”, HNO, 1977 Aug; 25(8): 297-300

    Pantazopoulos, PE, “Perceptive Deafness Following Prophylactic use of Tetanus anittoxin”, Laryngoscope, Dec 1965, 75:1832-1836.

    Zimmerman, W, “Observation of a case of Acute Bilateral Hearing Impairment Following Preventive Poliomyelitis Vaccination (type 3)”, Arch Ohr Nas Kehlkopfheilk, 1965, 185:723-725. Vaccinations and Kidney Disorders Citations:

    Jacquot, C et al, “Renal Risk in Vaccination”, Nouv Presse Med, Nov 6, 1982, 11(44):3237-3238.

    Giudicelli, et al, “Renal Risk in Vaccination”, Presse Med, Jun 11, 1982, 12(25):1587-1590.

    Tan, SY, et al, “Vaccine Related Glomerulonephritis”, BMJ, Jan 23, 1993, 306(6872):248.

    Pillai, JJ, et al, “Renal Involvement in Association with Post-vaccination Varicella”, Clin Infect Disorder, Dec 1993, 17(6): 1079-1080.

    Eisinger, AJ et al, “Acute Renal Failure after TAB and Cholera Vaccination”, B Med J, Feb 10, 1979, 1(6160):381-382.

    Silina, ZM, et al, “Causes of Postvaccinal Complications in the Kidneys in Young Infants”, Pediatria, Dec 1978, (12):59-61.

    Na, “Albuminurias”, Concours Med, Mar 1964, 85:5095-5098. [vaccination adverse reactions]

    Oyrl, A, et al, “Can Vaccinations Harm the Kidney?”, Clin Nephrol, 1975, 3(5):204-205.

    Mel’man Nia, “[Renal lesions after use of vaccines and sera].” Vrach Delo 1978 Oct;(10):67-9, [Article in Russian]

    Silina ZM, Galaktionova TIa, Shabunina NR, “[Causes of postvaccinal complications in the kidneys in young infants].” Pediatriia 1978 Dec;(12):59-61, [Article in Russian]

    Silina EM, et al, “[Some diseases of the kidneys in children during the 1st year of life, following primary smallpox vaccination and administration of pertusis-diphtheria-tetanus vaccine].” Vopr Okhr Materin Det 1968 Mar; 13(3):79-80, [Article in Russian] Vaccines and Skin Disorders Citations:

    Illingsworth R, Skin rashes after triple vaccine,” Arch Dis Child 1987 Sep; 62(9):979.

    Lupton GP, “Discoid lupus erythematosus occurring in a smallpox vaccination scar,” J Am Acad Dermatol, 1987 Oct; 17(4):688-690.

    Kompier, A J, “Some Skin Diseases caused by Vaccinia Virus [Smallpox],” Ned Milt Geneesk T, 15:149-157, May 1962.

    Weber, G et al, “Skin Lesions Following Vaccinations,” Deutsch Med Wschr, 88:1878-1886, S7 Sept 1963.

    Copeman, P W, “Skin Complications of Smallpox Vaccination,” Practitioner, 197:793-800, Dec 1966.

    Denning, DW, et al, “Skin Rashes After Triple Vaccine,” Arch Disorder Child, May 1987, 62(5): 510-511. Vaccinations and Abcesses:

    Sterler, HC, et al, “Outbreaks of Group A Steptococcal Abcesses Following DTP Vaccination”, Pediatrics, Feb 1985, 75(2):299-303.

    DiPiramo, D, et al, “Abcess Formation at the Site of Inoculation of Calmette-Guerin Bacillus (BCG),” Riv Med Aeronaut Spaz, Jul-Dec 1981, 46(3-4):190-199. Vaccinations and Shock:

    Caileba, A et al, “Shock associated with Disseminated Intravascular Coagulation Syndrome following Injection of DT.TAB Vaccine, Prese Med, Sept 15, 1984, 13(3):1900. Vaccines: The Weird, The Wild and The Hilarious Citations: Sometimes there are articles published about the strangest facts related to vaccines that defies our imagination and ability to understand them. They were written seriously by well-meaning scientific persons, but their titles can be seen differently. Some are funny, some are sad and some are purely scientific folly. See if you can figure these out:

    Pathel, JC, et al, “Tetanus Following Vaccination Against Small-pox”, J Pediatr, Jul 1960; 27:251-263. [Now you need a tetanus vaccination!]

    Favez, G, “Tuberculous Superinfection Following a Smallpox Re-Vaccination”, Praxis, July 21, 1960; 49:698-699. [Super means large/big/great!]

    Bonifacio, A et al, “Traffic Accidents as an expression of “Iatrogenic damage”, Minerva Med, Feb 24, 1971, 62:735-740. [But officer I was just vaccinated!]

    Baker, J et al, “Accidental Vaccinia: Primary Inoculation of a Scrotum”, Clin Pediatr (Phila), Apr 1972, 11:244-245. [Ooops, the needle slipped.]

    Edwards, K, “Danger of Sunburn Following Vaccination”, Papua New Guinea Med J, Dec 1977, 20(4):203. [Are vaccines phototoxic?]

    Stroder, J, “Incorrect Therapy in Children”, Folia Clin Int (Barc), Feb 1966, 16:82-90. [Agreed.]

    Wehrle PF, “Injury associated with the use of vaccines,” Clin Ther 1985;7(3):282-284. [Dah!]

    Alberts ME, “When and where will it stop”, Iowa Med 1986 Sep; 76(9):424. [When!]

    Breiman RF, Zanca JA, “Of floors and ceilings — defining, assuring, and communicating vaccine safety”, Am J Public Health 1997 Dec;87(12):1919-1920. [What is in between floors and ceilings?]

    Stewart, AM, et al, “Aetiology of Childhood Leukaemia”, Lancet, 16 Oct, 1965, 2:789-790.

    Nelson, ST, “John Hutchinson On Vaccination Syphilis (Hutchinson, J)”, Arch Derm, (Chic), May 1969, 99:529-535. [Vaccinations and STDs!]

    Mather, C, “Cotton Mather Anguishes Over the Consequences of His Son’s Inoculation Against Smallpox”, Pediatrics, May 1974; 53:756. [Is it for or against?]

    Thoman M, “The Toxic Shot Syndrome”, Vet Hum Toxicol, Apr 1986, 28(2):163-166. [Animals are not exempt from vaccination damage either!]

    Johnson, RH, et al, “Nosocomial Vaccinia Infection”, West J Med, Oct 1976, 125(4):266-270. [Nosocomial means a disease acquired in a doctor's office or hospital.]

    Heed, JR, “Human Immunization With Rabies Vaccine in Suckling Mice Brain,” Salud Publica, May-Jun 1974, 16(3): 469-480. [Have you had your suckling mice brains today?]

    Tesovic, G et al, “Aseptic Meningitis after Measles, Mumps and Rubella Vaccine”, Lancet, Jun 12, 1993, 341(8859):1541. [AM has same symptoms as poliomyelitis!]

    Buddle, BM et al, “Contagious Ecthyma Virus-Vaccination Failures”, Am J Vet Research, Feb 1984, 45(2):263-266.

    Freter, R et al, “Oral Immunization And Production of Coproantibody in Human Volunteers”, J Immunol, Dec 1963, 91:724-729. [Guess what copro- means .... Feces.]

    NA, “Vaccination, For and Against”, 1964, Belg T Geneesk, 20:125-130. [Is it for or against?]

    Sahadevan, MG et al, “Post-vaccinal Myelitis”, J Indian Med Ass, Feb 16, 1966, 46:205-206. [Did I mention myelitis?]

    Castan, P et al, “Coma Revealing an acute Leukosis in a child, 15 days after an Oral Anti-poliomyelitis Vaccination,” Acta Neurol Bekg, May 1965, 65:349-367. [Coma from vaccines!]

    Stickl, H, et al, “Purulent [pus] meningitides Following Smallpox Vaccination. On the Problem of Post- Vaccinal Decrease of Resistance”, Deutsch Med Wschr, Jul 22, 1966, 91:1307-1310. [Vaccines are the injection of viruses cultured from pus ... ]

    Haas, R

  76. Thorne

    @ #71 J.P.H. : “Neither my wife nor I are infected with HepB, which would put my son at a fairly low risk of infection, relatively speaking. He is not in school yet and does not attend day care.”

    Does your son have no contact with anyone else? No babysitters? No cousins? No other children? No one AT ALL? That would be sad, indeed.

    I can understand your reluctance, but unless you plan to isolate your son completely for the first five years of his life, which would impose a severe mental and emotional handicap upon him, there is no way you can protect him from diseases, of any kind. Vaccination provides the greatest protection possible with a minimum of risk.

  77. I would like to add to Mark Hansen’s comment. Last year I organized a trash clean-up at one of the local beaches. Over the course of four hours we found four or five discarded syringes. So I would not underestimate the possibility of accidental exposure if I were you.

  78. Tsu Dho Nimh

    @60 “There is plenty of evidence to support the claim that the H1N1 vaccine is not only useless in preventing the Swine Flu but that it makes the patient sicker and increases their chances of contracting Swine Flu.

    Oh really? It’s odd that “plenty of evidence” could be available for a vaccine that has only been administered to a few thousand people … it’s still in the clinical trials stage.

    Where did this “evidence” of yours come from?

  79. @Thorne, @Mark Hansen, @Ian Fallon:

    While I think JPH is playing with fire if he doesn’t vaccinate his kid for HepB at all, I think delaying it until 2-3 months of age is pretty reasonable (to just before /school/? that seems really risky) — assuming the mother has been tested (which in his case she apparently was). I think minimizing the number of shots that a very, very newborn baby gets is worthwhile, especially if those shots are given to prompt the baby’s immune system into working extra hard to produce immunity.

    I believe in our research we found that the reason HepB is given at birth is that so many parents don’t bring their baby in for vaccinations at all thereafter (which is dumb as hell — and it sucks that that is such a problem that they have to make it standard on day 1) and that vaccinating at 2-3 months was as effective especially given that infants of that age are very unlikely to be exposed.

    Later, when they’re up and about and running around in parks or playgrounds or what have you, heck yes — you definitely want them vaccinated for HepB well before that point. Honestly, though, the thought of needles in parks/playgrounds scares me far more because of the prevalence of HIV in the drug-using populace.

    In Japan they use a vaccination schedule which is slightly delayed with respect to the US vaccination schedule which seems relatively sensible. Also, as a parent who’s had a couple of really sucktastic days following 2- and 4-month vaccinations due to a sick, feverish, unhappy baby … I was relieved to hear that spacing them out a little can help, so we spaced out the 6mo shots over a few weeks. That was *so* much less stressful.

  80. @free-thinker

    I assume you got your gigantic spam list of FUD from some lunatic fringe anti-vaccine lobby. Ugh. If you wish to participate in the discussion, the way to do so is to *discuss*, not to carpet-bomb.

    Also, even if one is to take your tactic as anything but spam, posting a gigantic list so long that nobody will be able to follow up on all of them, especially given that all you included were references to articles (with snide little comments [like "OMG pus! ew!"] beside some), but not discussion of their content — not a single link to an on-line abstract for any of them — is tantamount to a DoS attack on the discussion.

  81. @Thorne:

    Does your son have no contact with anyone else? No babysitters? No cousins? No other children? No one AT ALL? That would be sad, indeed.

    The active phrase in what I wrote was “relatively speaking”. Compared to a child who has an infected parent, attends day care, or attends school, my son is at a reduced relative risk of contracting HepB. Is there still some risk? Sure. But immunizing also (arguably) increases the risk of asthma, which both my wife and I deal with already. To whatever extent asthma has a genetic component, my son is already at risk, and I’d prefer not to exacerbate that if possible.

  82. Deb

    To quote the Dick Smith article: “they will tell you that vaccines cause diseases such as autism, despite the fact that as a result of concerted scientific research, a link between vaccines and autism has been unequivocally dismissed”

    Can I say “quote your source”?

    How is it possible to unequivocally dismiss the possibility of a link between autism and vaccines when we DO NOT KNOW the cause of autism?

    I have a problem with the blanket generalisation that vaccines are good, and that anyone who chooses not to vaccinate their child is ill-informed and backward (which is the clear assumption of most posters on this blog).

    Review the details above – you had a guy whose wife is a nurse, who made a researched and considered decision not to vaccinate his infant for Hep B, and instead of being encouraged for bothering to do the research, he got FLAMED!

    Doctors are human, they don’t ALWAYS get it right, and the more informed you are as a patient or a parent, the more likely that you’ll get the best medical care. I would like to see people encouraged to read and understand the impact of vaccines, and then lauded for making their own decisions.

    One more thing – it’s stated above that mercury (however it’s compounded) is no longer being used in US formulations, but is still used in the third world. Is it even remotely possible that research might have discovered that it’s a bad idea to inject mercury, and that while removing it from the US market was a priority (due to adverse publicity), removing it from other markets was not? If so, is there even the remotest possibility that there are other potentially harmful compounds in existing vaccines, which will only be removed if people challenge the drug companies and walk away from those they deem potentially harmful?

  83. Dawn

    OK. First…@Freethinker: next time you copy/paste a list of articles, can you PLEASE post recent ones? Most of those articles are at least 10-15 years old, have been refuted, withdrawn or found to be inaccurate.
    @Deb: No studies have found that thimerosol led to any issues. The US pulled it out of formulations, actually several years after many other first world countries. None of them have noticed decreases in autism diagnoses. However, most first-world countries can afford the higher cost single dose vaccines. Most third-world countries cannot. To prevent bacterial infestation of a multi-dose vial, thimerosol remains in the multi-dose vials that are often used for vaccinations in those poorer countries.

    All the compounds in vaccines are listed on any reputable drug label. There is no antifreeze, formaldehyde, fetal monkey or human cells, contrary to the anti-vax sites information. There is a very small amount of aluminum, which acts as an adjuvent (something that “powers up” the vaccine so that smaller amounts of disease cells – AKA toxins – can be used, rather than the far larger amounts of toxins in vaccines when I was a child).

    Please read Todd W’s site; he does a great job at giving information in a readable format.

  84. Deb asked: “How is it possible to unequivocally dismiss the possibility of a link between autism and vaccines when we DO NOT KNOW the cause of autism?”

    Epidemiology.

    Autism cases have continued to rise even as vaccination rates have gone down (and after thimerosol was removed from the vaccines on the standard schedule).

    Your reasoning about “potentially harmful compounds” in existing vaccines is missing an important factor–we already know, from pre-vaccination experience, that failure to vaccinate has a potential cost of hundreds of millions of lives per year, if nobody does it.

  85. D. C. Sessions

    How is it possible to unequivocally dismiss the possibility of a link between autism and vaccines when we DO NOT KNOW the cause of autism?

    You don’t have to know the cause of hypothermia to rule out a link to elephant stampedes, because the incidence of hypothermia is not greater absent stampeding elephants than it is in connection with them.

    Correlation may not prove causation, but lack of correlation does a pretty fine job of ruling it out.

  86. @68 Dr Mercola – no ignorance just good science here, and your flogging that conference in which you are a speaker, in every vax forum you can find, is getting quite tiresome. Take out an ad.

  87. Thorne

    @ #89 J.P.H.: “But immunizing also (arguably) increases the risk of asthma, which both my wife and I deal with already. To whatever extent asthma has a genetic component, my son is already at risk, and I’d prefer not to exacerbate that if possible.”

    You hadn’t mentioned the asthma before, so I wasn’t factoring it into my thoughts. I can certainly understand you reluctance there. I don’t know of any correlation between asthma and vaccinations, but I’m not a health professional. I concede that you’ve done your homework on this.

    And I agree with Stephen Jacob (#86) that delaying the vaccinations for several months is a reasonable step since the child’s exposure to outside threats will be very minimal. But once he’s reached the age where he’s walking around and playing outside the risks increase dramatically. I don’t think waiting until he’s at school age is a good idea. Just my opinion, though.

    I’m certainly not criticizing your decision to delay the vaccinations, especially considering the potential for asthma. I was just trying to point out to you, and possibly others who might be on the fence, that your son won’t be spending his early years in an isolation bubble. And the more contact he has with those besides you and your wife the higher his risk is. And even then, from what I’ve read it would be possible for you or your wife to have contact with the virus and carry it into the home on your clothing. If, as was stated elsewhere here, the virus can survive for several days outside the body you could inadvertently bring it into the home and infect your son that way.

    My wife and I raised two sons. We had our fair share of trips to the emergency room. I know what it’s like to worry about such things. All you can do is to do what you think is best for your child. You and your wife seem to be keeping on top of these things and not making arbitrary decisions based on wishful thinking. I most certainly wish you all well.

  88. Dave

    @unvaccinated in Illinois: Yes, it would be a good idea to get yourself vaccinated. The so-called “childhood diseases” can be far more severe in adults. In addition, rubella is a Very Bad Thing for pregnant women, and if you’re vaccinated, you don’t need to worry about catching it or spreading it.

    The chickenpox (varicella) vaccine would also be a good idea if you haven’t had that. Chickenpox is really nasty in adults. A very healthy man I know got it as an adult and for days he was about as sick as you can be without heading to a hospital.

    @free thinker seems to be confusing freethinking with being free *of* thinking.

    @richard (80): an article by the Geiers? In the first edition of a brand-new journal? Oh, you *are* a card.

  89. @Freethinker
    Nice cut’n'paste job. Have actually read any of those? How about some from the 21stC next time… or not.

    @Deb
    How is it possible to unequivocally dismiss the possibility of a link between autism and vaccines when we DO NOT KNOW the cause of autism?
    We don’t have to know what causes something to rule out what doesn’t. The studies have been done. No link.
    One more thing – it’s stated above that mercury (however it’s compounded) is no longer being used in US formulations, but is still used in the third world.
    Even if this is true there is no link between mercury based preservatives and austism. There has not been an explosion of autism cases in the third world and since mercury based preservatives have been removed in the US there hasn’t been a decrease in the rate of autism in the US.

  90. @Deb –

    Children are born with the brain nonneurotypicality of autism, though it usually does not manifest itself until the child is a toddler. That’s another way that we know that vaccinating children doesn’t make them autistic.

  91. tacitus

    Regarding the “freethinker list”… so what?

    Nobody is arguing that there are no risks associated with vaccines. I am sure that many papers are written every year about adverse reactions to one vaccination or another. That’s how we understand the risks and the problems, and make them even safer.

    But *all* the scientific evidence shows that the world is a much healthier place because of vaccinations. Anti-vaxxers would still have us wrestling with outbreaks of smallpox, and dealing with the deaths of tens of thousands of children each year from entirely preventable diseases, if they had their way.

  92. Dangerous Bacon

    According to Dr. Mercola “the top experts in the world” will be speaking at the antivax conference he’s promoting.

    Those “experts” include Mercola himself, known for baseless scaremongering about not only vaccines but water flouridation and aspartame as well. Mercola’s real skill is at garnering FDA warnings for making illegal claims in connection with supplement sales (will you be taking advantage of the conference to sell more of this gunk, Doc?). Mercola not only blames vaccines for autism, he’s also singled out alleged causative factors like aluminum, pasteurized milk, flouride (surprise), lactose, glutamine, drinking any fluids other than water, and (my favorite) “an excess of grains, sugars, (and) underground vegetables”.

    Another conference speaker is the disgraced researcher Andrew Wakefield, currently facing ethics charges in Great Britain after he published a now-refuted paper linking the MMR vaccine to autism, resulting in the plummeting of vaccination rates in England and subsequent resurgence in measles cases. Dr. Wakefield didn’t bother to tell the journal editors that he was being paid huge sums by trial lawyers hoping to cash in on lawsuits, or that he was planning to market his own allegedly safer vaccine.

    And those two are probably the most qualified speakers at the conference. How pathetic.

  93. @ Deb – do you know why thimerosol is/was used in vaccines?

    As a preservative.

    Now have a guess why it still might be found in the developing world.

  94. Michael Kingsford Gray

    @Bunny:
    Your sense of humor is both infantile and potentially dangerous.
    Grow up, if you are able.

    You are ‘joking’ in an absolutely puerile way about someone’s tiny loved baby dying in an excruciating and prolonged manner in her distressed and grieving father’s blood-spattered arms.
    Have you no emotion for the feelings of the McCaffery family whatsoever?
    They may well be reading your appallingly irresponsible words right now.
    Can you imagine how that might make them feel???

    If you are really a ‘mental adult’, I expect an immediate and full retraction and apology for your egregiously childish and viciously unctuous and anti-human display.

    If you cannot apologise to us, then at least apologise to Dana McCaffery’s grieving parents.
    If you are not utterly ashamed of yourself, then you may well be beyond sane help.

  95. Is it even remotely possible that research might have discovered that it’s a bad idea to inject mercury, and that while removing it from the US market was a priority (due to adverse publicity), removing it from other markets was not?

    Thimersol was removed solely because of anti-vax hysteria. Removing a useful preservative in favor of more expensive and no safer alternatives increases the cost of vaccinations, so of course they don’t remove it for third-world markets, where cost is more critical.

  96. Thimersol was removed solely because of anti-vax hysteria. Removing a useful preservative in favor of more expensive and no safer alternatives increases the cost of vaccinations, so of course they don’t remove it for third-world markets, where cost is more critical.

    Actually, it wasn’t solely because of anti-vax hysteria. A good account of what happened can be found in Paul Offit’s Autism’s False Prophets:

    http://scienceblogs.com/bookclub/2008/10/finally_science_pushes_back_ag.php

    It was largely the work of one man, acting on the “precautionary” principle and bullying his agenda through the committees charged with vaccine safety.

  97. And where refridgeration is more difficult to maintain – it is a damn fine preservative and safe in the form in which it was used and in the quantities and schedules approved by the CDC – those who have suggested otherwise had better go back to school because they have missed the repeated studies that have demonstrated that fact.

  98. I wish anti-vaxx crowd would go away and take Comic Sans font with them. Far, far away.

  99. @Bunny 103:

    I’ve yet to see anyone address the article linked in comment #80. Its a peer-reviewed article from 2009 which claims:

    “Thimerosal at low nanomolar (nM) concentrations induced significant cellular toxicity in human neuronal and fetal cells. Thimerosal-induced cytoxicity is similar to that observed in AD pathophysiologic studies.”

    AD = autistic disorders. I’m not suggesting thimerosal is responsible for, or even a primary contributing factor to the increase in autism over the past 20 years. But that study certainly argues against the idea that its “entirely safe”.

  100. k

    @unvaccinated in Illinois – I’m an IL resident in the same age cohort as you. You probably were vaccinated for measles and rubella (“German measles”). No mumps vaccine was available at the time. If you had mumps as a child, have your doctor order titers for proof of immunity to measles, mumps, and rubella, and go from there. (Found out about this when I went to grad school – apparently state law requires proof of vaccination/immunity for university students.)

  101. Chris

    Because the “article” in 80 is from a less than reputable website and not worth bothering to even click on. If you bother to give the link to PubMed index we might bother.

  102. Chris

    So I did click on it, and looky, looky… who are the authors:
    : D. A. Geier a; P. G. King b; M. R. Geier … with their very own institute!

    Their testimony is not even allowed in several court rooms. For more on the Geiers see:
    Significant Misrepresentations: Mark Geier, David Geier & the Evolution of the Lupron Protocol (Contents) at (munged URL):
    neurodiversity dot com/weblog/article/109/

  103. Chris

    Oh, and it addressed in comment #96:

    @richard (80): an article by the Geiers? In the first edition of a brand-new journal? Oh, you *are* a card.

  104. @J.P.H
    You should get a little background on the Geiers before taking any article of they’ve written with anything more than a grain of salt…
    http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Geier

    Oh, and a little something about chemical castration of austistic kids.

  105. @J.P.H.

    They also set up their own IRB, on which Geier per et fil sit, and which includes a number of people who are all, in some way, related to the research they do (e.g., parents of a child patient seen by the Geiers, etc.), to approve their studies. Just a bit dishonest and unethical, dontcha think?

    More info here: http://neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/98/an-elusive-institute-significant-misrepresentations-mark-geier-david-geier-the-evolution-of-the-lupron-protocol-part-two

  106. @Chris 113:

    The Journal’s not brand new, as far as I can tell:

    http://www.tandf.co.uk/journals/titles/02772248.asp

    The Geiers’ article was published in Vol. 91.

    But yeah, he looks a little sketchy. Still, it would be interesting to see an expert address his results.

  107. IBY

    @Phil
    You just put Orac to shame by attracting freaking Dr. Mercola to the comments. That is special. ^_^

  108. David M.

    Dear Phil, Orac and everyone on this chain:

    I am jumping into this late, but I am AMAZED that the comment (below) was allowed to be posted (the buck stops with Phil on this) and that no one called out the utter lack of humanity of this poster. (Orac, Mr. Bacon, etc. the buck sticks to you as well.)

    @34 – Kathleen wrote:

    I’m tired of the Crazies! Vaccinations DO NOT CAUSE AUTISM! The increase in Autism is due to better more rigorous diagnosis of the problem. Previously these kids were called retarded and locked up in a room.

    Do you ALL think retarded people should be locked up in a room?

    Phil? Orac? Mr. Bacon – what do you say about that comment and that belief…so far I am just hearing Crickets. Your silence speaks volumes.

    Also, NOBODY, even the all knowing Orac, KNOWS what really causes autism. In fact, I wish they did know the cause. But I can tell you for a fact that my child’s autism was not caused by a change in the diagnosis criteria.

    I think there should be more research into everything regarding autism. Genetics, the environment, vaccines, food, household cleaners…nothing should be sacred or ruled out until the REAL cause is found.

  109. Chris

    J.P.H.

    @Chris 113:

    The Journal’s not brand new, as far as I can tell:

    Do you see that the writing above it a bit different? It is inside of a blockquote. I was quoting comment #96. Bring up your issues about the how old the journal is with Dave.

    Still, the Geiers are quacks. Including Baby Geier who is not a doctor.

  110. Chris

    David M.

    Phil? Orac? Mr. Bacon – what do you say about that comment and that belief…so far I am just hearing Crickets. Your silence speaks volumes.

    Except that it is not that far off of the truth. My son is twenty, I was told that if he had been just ten years older he would have been considered retarded and his education would have been much different.

    Also, why are you expecting some kind of reaction about one comment?

    For more information see Orac’s posting here from couple of years ago, and be sure to read the one after:
    scienceblogs dot com/insolence/2006/04/evidence_against_an_autism_epi.php

  111. Chris

    Speaking of what causes autism, has Mercola made up his mind? From the website dub dub dub dot ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/mercola.htm Mercola has this list of autism causes:

    Pasteurised milk – dub dub dub dot mercola.com/2003/jul/2/pasteurized_milk.htm
    Flouride – dub dub dub dot mercola.com/2001/jul/25/tooth_decay.htm (when consumed by pregnant women)
    Aluminium -dub dub dub dot mercola.com/2006/apr/11/there_are_more_toxins_in_vaccines_than_mercury.htm
    Mercury (of course) – dub dub dub dot mercola.com/2004/nov/3/mercury_vaccines_medicine.htm
    MMR (of course) – dub dub dub dot mercola.com/2001/jan/28/mmr_autism.htm
    Malnutrition – dub dub dub dot mercola.com/2004/jun/26/autism_malnutrition.htm
    Lactose – dub dub dub dot mercola.com/2004/jun/26/autism_malnutrition.htm (it goes with the malnutrition)
    Glutamine – dub dub dub dot mercola.com/2004/may/1/glutamine.htm (makes autism worse)
    “An excess of grains, sugars, underground vegetables, and any fluid other than water” in the diet – dub dub dub dot mercola.com/2000/may/21/ritalin_prozac_adhd.htm (Mercola lies about achieving “near miraculous improvement” by following his advice.)

  112. Leon Charittle

    Obviously, those who promote vaccination are doing more harm than good. Disease kills the week and provides room for the strong to survive in. Vaccinating disrupts this, creating a week species. Those who vaccinate their children may be doing their families a favour, but they are spelling out the end of the human race.

  113. Jeff Keogh

    @David M,

    Try reading for comprehension some time.

    Kathleen had said, “The increase in Autism is due to better more rigorous diagnosis of the problem. Previously these kids were called retarded and locked up in a room.” She was describing the state of affairs in a prior generation. Fortunately attitudes and treatments have changed.

    It would seem, however, that rather than taking the time to read her comment in context, you decided to misread it and then accuse *her* of being dreadful.

    David, some advice.

    1. Grow up, and

    2. Fornicate to somewhere else.

  114. Chris

    Leon Charittle:

    Disease kills the week and provides room for the strong to survive in. Vaccinating disrupts this, creating a week species.

    So what do you call the people who survive measles, mumps, pertussis, and others… a year species? Or a century species? (Once is a typo, twice is a very weak speller!)

    Seriously, are you one of the 8 year old Space Campers that showed up on Orac’s blog last week? Because you are obviously clueless about history, including eugenics, and that many children did not survive to their fifth birthday. Shall we go back to the days of the polio wards? Shall we resurrect the institutions that housed those who did not die from the disease but were rendered permanently disabled? How do you know that you would not be one of those who would end up both blind and deaf, or with permanent lung damage?

    And don’t go and say “I’m not vaccinated and I am perfectly healthy” … because if you are, you are leeching off of your community’s herd immunity.

  115. Eleri Hamilton

    Dave M Said: I think there should be more research into everything regarding autism. Genetics, the environment, vaccines, food, household cleaners…nothing should be sacred or ruled out until the REAL cause is found.

    Amen, and amen. Autism is a psychiatric diagnosis, based on patterns of behavioir, and, in most cases a *symptom* of something, not the disease in and of itself.

    It is entirely possible that some Autism Spectrum Disorder symptoms in a child could be food related, or genetic (as in my daughter’s case), or exposure based. There is no one smoking gun in Autism.

  116. Leon Charittle

    I may be a weak speller, or maybe my talents are in other things. You are right. maybe _I_ would be one of the unlucky diseased. But today the world has 6 billion people and cannot sustain them all. Very likely many people will need to die to make room for the strong. Maybe swine flu will be the answer. After all, they said that world peace would happen when pigs fly, and this year swine flu!

  117. @#125. Seriously. Please tell me you’re being sarcastic. Oh wait a minute, you’re serious. You’re pathetic.

  118. trrll

    @J.P.H. writes, ‘I’ve yet to see anyone address the article linked in comment #80. Its a peer-reviewed article from 2009 which claims:
    “Thimerosal at low nanomolar (nM) concentrations induced significant cellular toxicity in human neuronal and fetal cells. Thimerosal-induced cytoxicity is similar to that observed in AD pathophysiologic studies.”’

    Even if this work had been done by a reputable lab, it would be hard to take it seriously. As anybody who has done cell culture can tell you, killing cells in culture is not a reliable test of toxicity in the real world. Even under the best of conditions, mammalian cells do not do well in the foreign environment of a cell culture death, and many of them die even if you don’t do anything do them. Cells in culture frequently pretty much die if you look at them funny. And constant exposure in the medium of a cell culture dish is not a good model of the brief exposure to thimerosal that occurs with injection, as this particular form of mercury is very rapidly eliminated from the body.

    So I wouldn’t give it much credence even if it had been done by a reputable lab with no financial interest in the mercury-autism issue. But in fact it wasn’t; it was done by a couple of quacks who make big bucks hawking dangerous “anti-mercury” treatments and testifying in vaccine-injury lawsuits, and who have previously engaged in fraud to evade regulations designed to protect children from being used as guinea pigs for dangerous human experimentation.

  119. Chris

    Then Mr. Charittle, with your concern about the planet I hope that you have followed through and have had yourself sterilized, and have not had a tetanus vaccine.

    Also, if you become ill you should refuse all medical care including antibiotics.

  120. Freethinker: Do you have any citations regarding current vaccines in use, and not the cesspool of anti-vaccination history?

    Orac: As for Dr Mercola visiting, he is an intellectual coward who will never, ever enter into an online discussion with anyone on a 1:1 basis. In this way, even Dr.l Jay is his intellectual superior.

  121. A Nonny Moose

    FSM help us, but we’re starting to get low level anti-vax chuntering in New Zealand at the moment, with Measles making a reappearance. The Woo invading our national newspapers comments section is incredibly disconcerting.

  122. Gary Ansorge

    Wealth is the principle determinant of health, as in:
    1) Able to afford sanitation
    2) able to afford decent food
    3) able to afford dentistry
    4) able to afford vaccinations

    ,,,and the resultant is:
    Bigger bodies
    maybe bigger brains

    Now, if we could just get them educated.

    126 Leon Charittle:

    Yours is the Malthusian ethic, a decidedly dystopian view of reality.

    Not a Darwinian view. Survival of the fittest refers only to successfully reproducing in a changing environment. So, we have 7 billion people? So what? According to Malthus we were all supposed to go to hell 6 billion people ago. He was wrong and so are you. We create our own environmental challenges. We will solve the problem in our uniquely human, compassionate manner. After all, that’s what our Great Teachers taught us, right? Right??? Because if we don’t do it that way, we aren’t humans, we’re just mutant, naked apes,,,

    GAry 7

    Gary 7

  123. Nigel Depledge

    Airtonix (61) said:

    so will there reach a point where we as a community have no natural immunity to anything?

    forever relying on substances created in specialised environment where one out of a thousand people have the required training to understand how such things are made?

    All immunity is natural.

    A vaccine provides immunity by exposing your body’s immune system to a weakened or partial form of a pathogen. For example, flu vaccine is typically live virus that has been rendered non-virulent by repeated passage through generations of chicken cells (the virus adapts to the chicken cells and is thus rendered incapable, or almost incapable, of giving rise to infection in humans, but it still stimulates an immune response).

    The information required to make vaccines is typically available in any good library (and will certainly be in any university library). If you wish to understand how vaccines are made, the information is there for you to find.

  124. Nigel Depledge

    Free-thinker (82) said:

    Lots of peer-reviewed research showing ill-effects of vaccines:

    . . .

    OK, and how much of that lot have you read?

    I’m going to instantly discount everything from before 1990, because nothing that is 20 years out of date is all that relevant to modern vaccination practice, except insofar as these studies have informed modern vaccination practice. In order to show off how many papers there are that have found adverse reactions to vaccines, you seem ot ignore the fact that science learns.

    There seem to be two clusters of about 4 – 6 papers remaining, from around 1996 and 1998. The papers from 1996 investigate a possible link between one particular vaccine and diabetes. The other cluster deals with Wakefield’s claims of a link between MMR and autism, and most of the papers you cite either refute or argue against Wakefield’s claim.

  125. Nigel Depledge

    Deb (90) said:

    To quote the Dick Smith article: “they will tell you that vaccines cause diseases such as autism, despite the fact that as a result of concerted scientific research, a link between vaccines and autism has been unequivocally dismissed”

    Can I say “quote your source”?

    You can, but it has been linked to before, and the data are in the public domain. Anyone wishing to wade in and contradict or criticise the current state of science should first of all find out what that state is.

    How is it possible to unequivocally dismiss the possibility of a link between autism and vaccines when we DO NOT KNOW the cause of autism?

    Because studies have been done with very large numbers of individuals (about 500,000 children in Denmark IIRC), and the conclusions are statistically sound: If there were a causal link between MMR vaccination and autism, we would have seen it in the data. Therefore, we know that MMR vaccine is not a cause of autism.

    In the same way, we can be fairly confident that living in the northern hemisphere (to pluck an example at random) is not a cause of autism.

    Do you, for example, avoid eating apples because we don’t know what causes autism? Do you avoid going to the seaside because we don’t know what causes autism? No, of course you do not. By the same token, it would be stupid to avoid having your children protected from transmissible diseases merely because we don’t know what causes autism, and, in this case, we have good evidence that MMR does not cause autism.

    I have a problem with the blanket generalisation that vaccines are good, and that anyone who chooses not to vaccinate their child is ill-informed and backward (which is the clear assumption of most posters on this blog).

    It is not an assumption, it is a conclusion.

    There are a few people who cannot be vaccinated (i.e. the vaccine has a significant adverse effect). These few are protected by herd immunity, but only where the general level of vaccination is high enough that herd immunity exists.

    Seriously, the current state of knowledge is that there are good reasons to have your children vaccinated against the range of common (or “once-common”) childhood diseases. Conversely, unless your child suffers from significant adverse reactions, there is no reason not to vaccinate.

    Review the details above – you had a guy whose wife is a nurse, who made a researched and considered decision not to vaccinate his infant for Hep B, and instead of being encouraged for bothering to do the research, he got FLAMED!

    No, his argument got criticised. Because it was quite weak. This is not to say that there is no argument for delaying the “day 1″ HepB vaccination until 2 or 3 months, merely that the reasons given were weak.

    What else would you expect from a discussion thread populated by sceptics?

    Doctors are human, they don’t ALWAYS get it right, and the more informed you are as a patient or a parent, the more likely that you’ll get the best medical care. I would like to see people encouraged to read and understand the impact of vaccines, and then lauded for making their own decisions.

    This would be fine if there were a grey area, but the evidence is very clear. MMR does not cause autism. The other arguments thrown out by the anti-vaxxers are largely specious. There is no good reason for failing to have your child vaccinated. The benefits of vaccination outweigh the risks by several orders of magnitude. Additionally, most people don’t bother or won’t bother to become informed – instead, they blindly accept celebrity endorsements, which is one reason that adverts like the one placed by the Aussie sceptics are needed.

    One more thing – it’s stated above that mercury (however it’s compounded) is no longer being used in US formulations, but is still used in the third world. Is it even remotely possible that research might have discovered that it’s a bad idea to inject mercury, and that while removing it from the US market was a priority (due to adverse publicity), removing it from other markets was not?

    Thimerosal isn’t mercury, in the same way that water isn’t hydrogen.

    But, assuming your question is genuine, thimerosal is, as far as can be determined, harmless.

    If so, is there even the remotest possibility that there are other potentially harmful compounds in existing vaccines, which will only be removed if people challenge the drug companies and walk away from those they deem potentially harmful?

    What the hell does “potentially harmful” mean?

    Gasoline is potentially harmful. Does that mean its sale should be prohibited? Vinegar is potentially harmful. Does that mean its sale should be prohibited?

    What qualifies some random member of the public to judge what is or is not suitable for medical use? Not to sound elitist, but it takes a substantial knowledge of chemistry and pharmacokinetics to make that judgement. Our universities train experts for a good reason.

    OK, maybe that does sound elitist, but perhaps you should consider the depth of knowledge, understanding and experience you are trying to cast aside by suggesting that everyone’s opinion is equally valid on this matter.

  126. @Nigel Depledge

    But, assuming your question is genuine, thimerosal is, as far as can be determined, harmless.

    I’d just add a little more to that sentence: “in the amounts that exist(ed) in vaccines”.

  127. Hi Phil.

    This has nothing to do with the AVN, but it is, I promise, the most perfect example of ‘quackery’ you’re likely to see on this or any other world. I’d have emailed you direct but couldn’t figure out how, so here is the link:

    http://failblog.org/2009/06/30/police-fail-4/

    Hope you find it as laugh-out-loud hilarious as I did…
    Indy

  128. Nigel Depledge

    Todd W (137) said:

    @Nigel Depledge

    But, assuming your question is genuine, thimerosal is, as far as can be determined, harmless.

    I’d just add a little more to that sentence: “in the amounts that exist(ed) in vaccines”.

    You are quite correct. At low doses, thimerosal is harmless. At substantially higher doses than have ever been used in vaccines, it is, indeed, harmful.

  129. Nigel Depledge

    D.C. Sessions (93) said:

    You don’t have to know the cause of hypothermia to rule out a link to elephant stampedes . . .

    Oh, man! So that’s why I keep getting hypothermia, no matter how far away I get from those elephants!

  130. Nigel Depledge

    Tacitus (99) said:

    But *all* the scientific evidence shows that the world is a much healthier place because of vaccinations. Anti-vaxxers would still have us wrestling with outbreaks of smallpox, and dealing with the deaths of tens of thousands of children each year from entirely preventable diseases, if they had their way.

    Perhaps more significantly, antivax propaganda in Nigeria is directly responsible for preventing the worldwide eradication of polio.

  131. Nigel Depledge

    JPH (109) said:

    @Bunny 103:

    I’ve yet to see anyone address the article linked in comment #80. Its a peer-reviewed article from 2009 which claims:

    “Thimerosal at low nanomolar (nM) concentrations induced significant cellular toxicity in human neuronal and fetal cells. Thimerosal-induced cytoxicity is similar to that observed in AD pathophysiologic studies.”

    AD = autistic disorders. I’m not suggesting thimerosal is responsible for, or even a primary contributing factor to the increase in autism over the past 20 years. But that study certainly argues against the idea that its “entirely safe”.

    Of course, with only the abstract available without a subscription, we cannot evaluate the quality of that study. However, a couple of factors are notable by their absence: first, the relevance of low-nanomolar concentrations; and second, the effect of thimerosal on whole organism.

    So, before you go making any claims about thimerosal I suggest you look up its ADME profile.

  132. Nigel Depledge

    OK, I missed a few posts about the article linked in #80.

    JPH (116) said:

    @Chris 113:

    The Journal’s not brand new, as far as I can tell:

    [url removed]

    The Geiers’ article was published in Vol. 91.

    But yeah, he looks a little sketchy. Still, it would be interesting to see an expert address his results.

    The methods are probably more important than the results, and this has probably already happened. Have you looked?

  133. Daniel Raffaele

    Just to clarify a small detail, herd immunity in Sydney is fine. However, the Northern Rivers region of New South Wales is where the issue is. Centred around the city of Lismore, this region is home to the AVN and is where they are doing the most damage. It is also where the McCafferys live.

    Apart from that, the article was dead on. The AVN are a scourge on our society. We are working to have them shut down.

    Now I find out that Meryl Dorey is an AIDS denier! She really is stupid. BTW: She’s American – you guys want her back? Please say yes. Please take her back – please? I’ll make you a deal. You take back Dorey and we’ll take back that moron who runs the creationist museum. Or, we could just sell them both to North Korea.

  134. Chris

    Daniel Raffaele:

    BTW: She’s American – you guys want her back? … I’ll make you a deal. You take back Dorey and we’ll take back that moron who runs the creationist museum. Or, we could just sell them both to North Korea.

    Deal.

    Oh, and Nigel Depledge, did you notice who wrote that article? It is also addressed in the comments (just search for chemical castration).

  135. I agree, Vaccinations are one of the greatest breakthroughs in medical history ever. So many people are living longer now due to them. Fear and ignorance continues to spread because well…people are human. But good things are still coming for the future in Vaccines. Maybe those will sway…

  136. Nigel Depledge

    Chris (145) said:

    Oh, and Nigel Depledge, did you notice who wrote that article? It is also addressed in the comments (just search for chemical castration).

    Yeah, I kinda caught up after having already commented. The authors of the piece seem to be, shall we say, not the most reliable of sources.

  137. Daniel M

    I thought thimerosal was another one of those big scary words dreamt up like mercury that sound oh-so-evil, but that the amounts found in actual vaccines range from zero (thimerosal) to near-enough-it-makes-no-difference-to-zero (mercury, which isn’t in them any more)?

    so, uh, yeah, I’ll take vaccines over death due to non-herd-immunity any day.

  138. Paula S

    I have an autistic 3 and half year old son. I beleive my son was born autisitic as everything that I know points to that fact. But I would also like to point out my son has been vaccinated, but about 9 weeks ago my son was vaccinated for his second Hep A vaccine and we have seen serious regression in my son, behaviourly, eating and sleeping and has got to the point my husband and I are out of our tree. Nothing has changed over the past 2 months apart from the fact that he was vaccinated. My other son who is 5 was vaccinated at the same time and we have seen no affects on him.
    Now I am not a scientist I know very litte in regard to what are in vaccines. But I am very reluctant to take him back at 4 years of age and have him vaccinated again. If my son was healthy and mentally well, I would not even be here talking about this, but I am afraid that I am not willing to take the chance. And people can critise me about this, but come and live a month in my shoes and maybe you may start to think differently. When you have good health everyone takes it for granted, but when you have a child who does not it is then that you start looking into everything.
    You can’t tell me that we know all there is to know about vaccinations, we get told what they want us to know. And why is it that mercury has been showing up in my son’s system. I can tell you I am not prepared to take the risk my with sons health and life anymore. My son will just have to survive on the vaccinations he has had. Iam sorry that this offends people, but in Australia we still have the constitutional right to say no.

  139. @Paula S

    Your concern for your son is understandable, and whether to vaccinate or not is, ultimately, your decision (even in the U.S., there are exemptions). Your best course of action is to discuss the issue with your pediatrician.

    And why is it that mercury has been showing up in my son’s system.

    First off, how was this determined? By whom? Why was the testing done? When was it first done, and how long have followup measurements been taken? Second, what type of mercury compound has “shown up”? There are numerous sources of mercury (air, fish, etc.), including potential problems with the tools used to measure the mercury.

    I understand the concerns and fears you have. It is natural. It is also natural to ascribe meaning to an event that is notable, but otherwise unrelated to the condition. Is the regression possibly linked to the vaccine? Yes, but not likely. More probably is that the timing correlated with the natural course of the disorder. But, not knowing the fine details, I can’t say with absolute certainty.

    So, I’ll just leave by saying again that you should consult your pediatrician and discuss, as much as possible without getting emotional (though that may be very difficult), what is best for your son, for your family, and for those with whom you come in contact.

  140. Mark Hansen

    Paula, one thing that is known about vaccines is how much mercury is in them. For childhood immunisations, the amount is nil. The only vaccine to contain thimerosal is the flu vaccine and there are thimerosal-free flu vaccines available.
    As Todd asks, it is important to know how the mercury levels in your son were determined. Have you had the rest of your household family checked? Even if it was possible that the mercury was coming from vaccines, it may be that there is another source that is getting into your son and the rest of your family. As one example, compact flourescent lights (CFL) do contain mercury in small amounts.

  141. @Mark Hansen

    For childhood immunisations, the amount is nil. The only vaccine to contain thimerosal is the flu vaccine and there are thimerosal-free flu vaccines available.

    Well, I’m not sure what the supply is like in Australia (where it seems Paula S. is from). What you say is true for the U.S., but I’m not entirely familiar with Australia’s vaccine products.

    That said, the amount of ethylmercury in vaccines from thimerosal still is likely to be small and is quickly eliminated from the body. Assuming that the testing procedures and materials are accurate (and there is room for doubt, depending on the lab), other, more mundane and ubiquitous sources would be more likely, I think.

  142. Mark Hansen

    It’s out of all childhood vaccines here in Aust. as well according to the Dept. of Health (A wholly-owned subsidiary of Teh Ebil Gummint™ (Oz Division)). The web link is a little long to post but easily accessed through our good friend Google.

    If the levels of mercury are high in her son, I really think she should have all her family members tested. One should never assume that one source is the only possible source unless there is good reason to.

  143. @Mark Hansen

    Thanks for the clarification. Agreed regarding testing all family members, though again, with the caveat of which lab is doing the testing. Are they affiliated with anti-vax groups? Do they return elevated levels of mercury in all samples provided to them? In the U.S., there are labs that seem to return elevated mercury results in just about every sample provided them, and which labs are also affiliated with anti-vax groups, making their testing a wee bit suspicious.

  144. john fryer chemist

    Hi

    Yes, vaccines are a confidence trick today.

    I had mine years ago but only for the deadly illnesses and not many minor illnesses or endless repeat vaccines. And in the good old days they were safe.

    The evidence against vaccines is as long as the history of vaccines but modern research from 1960s has identified dozens of ways that vaccines harm.

    Before the mad rush for vaccines, USA ranked first in the Western world for good health and low deaths.

    Today it ranks bottom and has more vaccines than any other country.

    If you look at the breathing of an infant after a vaccine there are huge increases in difficulty which can in rare circumstances (1 in 2000 or less) cause death.

    The case of the death to an infant from whooping cough is expected from the adverse effects of vaccines to the mother.

    And for every case that is sad there are a thousand that show harm from vaccines. Eg the death of Taylor Brynn Alexander just 6 days after a series of vaccines. The doctor who administered the vaccine has seen it before and before but cant seem to link the death of an infant 6 days after she gave a vaccine even though it has happened many times to this doctor.

    To be fair if she shouted any louder about what she has observed she would be kicked out of the club: Murder Incorporated.

  145. john fryer chemist

    I have to say that most of the comments here do show little or no knowledge of what people talk about.

    It takes about ten years or certainly a lot of careful thought and reading to get up to speed. See for example the list of adverse effects carefully gained and totally ignored.

    Thimerosal has many accepted spellings but those here given are often new additions to the language.

    One alternative correct spelling is merthiolate and smacks of name changing of Windscale et al for similar reasons.

    Those that say thimerosal is not as dangerous as methylmercury are sadly uninformed as it is or was placed in the same group until many in the vaccine industry woke up to the fact that thimerosal had mercury in it with just that hint MER which could be misinterpreted as short for MERDUR if I adopted that lack of rigidity in spelling seen here.

    In fact far from being reference levels the accepted level of harm from thimerosal is some hundred times less than that quoted as not be exceeded.

    Safety from mercury in vaccines comes simply from the fact that it is mopped up by the first things it encounters so is like playing Russian Roulette except of course the Ruskies got rid of their mercury nearly 50 years ago and in the USA they probably use more of the stuff than ever.

    Like many things we are kept in the dark etc.

  146. john fryer chemist

    The research publication referred to in 80 is by the Geier team et al and probably duplicates what is already known and referred to by me already.

    Thimerosal is not deadly at the levels quoted by the EPA, CDC, FDA et al but at levels way way down.

    The only safety factor being that as mentioned it has to reach delicate areas to reap the maximal damage.

    The death of Harry Clark in 6 hours after a mercury vaccine shows that there is this capability in 1 child in 2000.

    Is this a risk worth taking?

    Cancer from a vaccine comes at a time interval many times past any current safety testing regimes.

    A person I know died of Non Hodgkins Lymphoma of which nearly half have SV40 identified of which the only source is previous vaccine identified as being contaminated by careful research but put out on the market as vaccines are always safe.

    The estimated deaths from just this one mistake will never be known but will amount to hundreds of thousands many of whom grew up healthy with a ticking time bomb inside them.

    The Geier team are regularly put down as ignorant and non expert even though they have been working in the field for decades and making many discoveries now accepted by all.

    Work by epidemiologists used to refute this sort of careful measurement is rather funny in that often they take old or incomplete data, change the diagnosis, eliminate those that are sensitive, as they may give the impression of harm. This may mean cutting the original sample down to half.

    And if all else fails they do get high sums of money from Big Pharma for doing no work. Funny?

    I don’t expect to change the false view that vaccines work or cause no adverse effects as the argument is 200 years old but I hope those that support vaccines are well paid by BIG pHARMER or have extremely healthy children.

    As said USA has dropped from top place to bottom and now has one child in three neurologically ill and one in two with signs of diabetes. There are of course ten times as many ways that vaccines can cause illness.

    But you know this already.

    To a simple mind like me – if you get one person crying wolf and ten saying its fine, I still want to know why one bad result is thrown out of the window. for Harry and Sally it meant DEATH.

    For others long stretches in prison as INNOCENTS. USA currently has several thousands in prison and all claiming vaccine harm.

    No one much is listening to convicted felons.

    YET.

    While BIG pHARMER calls the same tune and SEEKS and DESTROYS dissenters they will rot in prison as INNOCENT victims while the real villains pick up pay checks as high as TEN MILLION DOLLARS a year to keep MURDER INCORPORATED in business.

  147. john fryer chemist

    Nigel 136

    It takes chemists to realise what is a dangerous level of mercury.

    The levels have been worked out.

    The class in which thimerosal is put was correct – the alkyl group.

    Thimerosal in vaccines are still dangerous and have passed the accepted level by 50 fold.

    Vaccine makers got it wrong.

    Vaccine regulators didn’t know it was there; thimerosal doesn’t seem as bad as putting mercury compound on the bottle.

    For the record, thimerosal isn’t mercury anymore than hydrogen is water.

    Correct but you get it wrong, mercury compounds are highly toxic and mercury metal is practically inert.

    While it was fine to use gallons of mercury while a teacher, it was FORBIDDEN to use ANY mercury compound and alkyl mercury is the most toxic of the three accepted classes until 21st science put thimerosal into its own little class and pretended we have no knowledge of it.

    We have the knowledge and its called SIDS.

    MURDER INCORPORATED having political exemption from prosecution for more than ONE MILLION MURDERS and RISING.

  148. john fryer chemist

    To Todd and Nigel

    Mercury in vaccines is harmless?

    Where is your evidence that seems to go against 2 000 years of chemistry and alchemy.

    Mercury is harmful at substantially higher amounts.

    So what level would you chicken out of a mercury vaccine? 0.011 per cent? surely not 0.100 per cent when it is 100 per cent lethal?

    I am not aware of any research that proves mercury compounds are harmless has ever been done even by those that want to show it was right to put it in vaccines.

    If thimerosal was at 100 times less we know full well it can still harm people.

    A rough estimate puts AD cases with just the amount of mercury found in 4 mercury vaccines.

    Now that is worrying when an infant is probably ten times less in weight than a man.

    But we can hide behind – we don’t know.

    It seems that even when we do know there are plenty to argue – we dont know.

    The health of the USA is in a big mess and every addition to the vaccine schedule just makes it WORSE.

    As a clue, there is at least one paper published that showed 100 per cent harm (death) using mercury in the form of thimerosal at the level in a vaccine.

    The reason mercury rested in vaccines for decades longer is simple and easy to explain.

    INCOMPETENCE.

  149. @john fryer

    I know I shouldn’t feed the trolls, but… My response is broken up into separate posts so it won’t get blocked by the spam filter.

    If you look at the breathing of an infant after vaccine there are huge increases in difficulty which can in rare circumstances (1 in 2000 or less) cause death.

    Citation please.

    The case of the death to an infant from whooping cough is expected from the adverse effects of vaccines to the mother.

    Citation please.

    And for every case that is sad there are a thousand that show harm from vaccines. Eg the death of Taylor Brynn Alexander just 6 days after a series of vaccines. The doctor who administered the vaccine has seen it before and before but cant seem to link the death of an infant 6 days after she gave a vaccine even though it has happened many times to this doctor.

    Can’t really comment on Taylors case as you did not provide any details or links about her. I did a search and only came across the story told by her mother, but it was lacking in pertinent information. While it may have been the vaccines (which ones?), we cannot conclude with certainty that that is the case. Were there other underlying health issues that had not been diagnosed previously? Were there any other things that occurred that might explain her death that either the mother is not reporting or that she does not remember.

    Also, according to the anecdote, the doctor had seen it 3 times in her career, not the “many times” that you say.

    See for example the list of adverse effects carefully gained and totally ignored.

    Citation please.

    The rest of your post about thimerosal is rather incoherent. What are you trying to say about the levels?

    Thimerosal is not deadly at the levels quoted by the EPA, CDC, FDA et al but at levels way way down.

    Okay, so what is the LD50 of thimerosal? Include your citation.

    The death of Harry Clark in 6 hours after a mercury vaccine shows that there is this capability in 1 child in 2000.

    Citation please.

    Cancer from a vaccine comes at a time interval many times past any current safety testing regimes.

    Citation please.

  150. A person I know died of Non Hodgkins Lymphoma of which nearly half have SV40 identified of which the only source is previous vaccine identified as being contaminated by careful research but put out on the market as vaccines are always safe.

    First, citation please. Second, was SV40 detcted in your friend? A citation would be nice to back up your claim.

    The Geier team are regularly put down as ignorant and non expert even though they have been working in the field for decades and making many discoveries now accepted by all.

    Accepted by “all” who? The majority of the medical establishment would disagree with them. They are also guilty of many serious ethical violations. For example, creating their own IRB, on which they and their friends and clients served, to approve their study. Then there’s using Lupron to chemically castrate kids. Putting kids at serious risk of injury and death with chelation. Then there’s the fact that Mark Geier studied genetics, not epidemiology or infectious diseases. David Geier also has no training in epidemiology or infectious diseases. They have significant financial interests in promoting their anti-vax stance (money from expert witness testimony, services “treating” purported vaccine injury, etc.).

    And if all else fails they do get high sums of money from Big Pharma for doing no work.

    Citation please.

    As said USA has dropped from top place to bottom and now has one child in three neurologically ill and one in two with signs of diabetes. There are of course ten times as many ways that vaccines can cause illness.

    Citation please. Specifically, citations showing that vaccines are related to any of those illnesses, and they should be from reputable journals (i.e., no Medical Hypotheses or JPANDS).

    For others long stretches in prison as INNOCENTS. USA currently has several thousands in prison and all claiming vaccine harm.

    This sounds a bit like a lie. Citation please.

    Thimerosal in vaccines are still dangerous and have passed the accepted level by 50 fold.

    In case you hadn’t heard, thimerosal was removed from almost every single vaccine (and even the flu vaccine is available in thimerosal-free versions) in the U.S. (thanks to pubic/Congressional pressure, as there was no clear link in any of the science).

    Where is your evidence that seems to go against 2 000 years of chemistry and alchemy.

    Wait, wait, wait. Alchemy? Seriously?

    If thimerosal was at 100 times less we know full well it can still harm people.

    Citation please.

    A rough estimate puts AD cases with just the amount of mercury found in 4 mercury vaccines.

    Hey. There’s a very simple way to determine whether thimerosal is responsible for autism. Take a look at the rates from the ’90s and compare them to the rates from 2005 to present (that allows for ages up to 6 years old who have not received thimerosal-containing vaccines). If the numbers have not dropped, then thimerosal was not responsible. Guess what? Autism rates have not decreased.

    As a clue, there is at least one paper published that showed 100 per cent harm (death) using mercury in the form of thimerosal at the level in a vaccine.

    You realize that if what you are saying is correct, then everyone that has ever received a thimerosal-containing vaccine should be dead. (Poke, poke. Yep, I’m still alive.)

    The reason mercury rested in vaccines for decades longer is simple and easy to explain.

    INCOMPETENCE.

    Or, it could be that it was safe to use and kept costs of vaccines down, prevented microbial contamination of the vaccines and so on.

    You’re big on claims and stupendously short on citations to quality science.

  151. Jerico

    I thought AVN stood for Adult Video Network

  152. Steve

    I seriously fear that 99% of the population of the world are a group of main-stream-media programmed automitans that are destroying all civil liberties by their inability to see what is happening in the world.

    I have an autistic child who started showing symptoms a few months after she was vaccinated. My life has been a living hell ever since and the rates that this neurological disorder is rising at is alarming, especially in Africa where the only descernable link with the West is vaccination programs.

    There is a good reason why many health professionals in Australia are refusing these mandatory vaccinations. Health professionals are not stupid, but I guess if the TV or a Medical Journal tells the general public that you’re a lunatic for not vaccinating then the mind-zombies who believe everything they are told and who think the world is a perfect wonderland at the moment are all EXPERTS. Yes, Expert morons.

    I guess GMO food is all safe as well, even though the scientific studies that gave extremely bad results for human and animal health were replaced with ‘Marketing Science’ from companies like Monsanto that are getting a monopoly on world seed banks and technology and are Genetically Engineering EVERYTHING.

    NEWSFLASH – The world is run by maniac control freaks who are trying to reduce the worlds population dramatically so that they can maintain their total control on the human race. Why do all of the UN philanthropists like Ted Turner say that the worlds population should not exceed 500 million, and say that the UN is on target to meet its world population targets by 2050???

    Why is it that when you look at Ted Turners major donations to the UN cause it is 90% Vaccination funding??? Ted Turner also spends 90% of his time talking about how the human race is a disease and there’s too many of us, so I wonder why he spends 90% of his donation funds vaccinating the humans he refers to as a disease??? How if vaccinations were helping mortality rates would he achieve his population goals??

    6.5 billion people to 500 million is 12 in 13 people being exterminated by 2050 with zero population growth……The UN says it’s on target, so I wonder what they are doing/using to achieve this.

    ANSWER – GMO & Vaccines – not that I’m saying vaccines didn’t start as a good idea and that in essence they are not a good idea, what I’m saying is that they are being used for an entirely different purpose now and the game has changed.

    If you don’t see any sense in what I’m saying then by all means go back to sleep, but if you start preaching that EVERYONE should be mandatorily vaccinated because you are too dense to see the truth, then stay the hell away from my face and my family – CIVIL LIBERTY…..Some people think they inherited freedom for some reason when reality is un-ravelling RIGHT NOW. WAKE UP BEFORE IT’S TOO LATE.

    If you own a bio-tech/big-pharma company that produces vaccines by culturing a virus and then creating anti-bodies for that virus, then you have access to release this virus into the general populace in order to increase sales and to get pay outs from the UN (on the sly) for helping them with their population reduction goals. And a really good way to spread these viruses is to contaminate the very vaccines that your marketing is promoting with the very virus (or the next strain) so as to complete the cycle and to create great sales and growth opportunities.

    If people think that hegelian dialect of this sort doesn’t/isn’t in every business at the moment then you’ve never sat in a board room with a bunch of money hungry blood sucking leeches who would do ANYTHING to increase their profits, especially if it is sanctioned by your new World Government the United Nationsm wo will protect your company from litigation using its supra-national laws that can by-pass the laws of sovereign countries whenever they see fit.

    There’s enough info out there to see what is going on and also who is ‘controlling’ this financial collapse to bring in a one world currency… If you can’t descern simple logic from media BS then I pray for your soul, you and the 99% of the rest of the public who have lost their minds and think we live in a mostly benevolent world with pixies and faries dancing in the streets and world leaders who hate money and just love to help people.

    WAKE UP!!!!

  153. Lisa psychologist

    Thank you Steve, It takes great courage to say your piece and fly in the face of mass media and ignorance. In my degree I studied statistics to a very high level and none of the statistics of the vaccination propaganda machine figure out. Other well created and supported arguements get thrown out because of the lack of ability to see past the hype and fear that the vacination arguments use. It sadly often takes caring for a damaged child to give people courage. I have two children that have never recieved anything injected into their bodies. One has never had antibioticss, the other 1 course, used just as it should, in an emergency. Both refuse pain killers. They are very alive, very energetic and very bright. It takes a lot of mindful parenting to circumnavigate issues of their health and usually I know their bodies will deal with it if I provide good hygiene, good nutrition and lots of care and on-the-job love.

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