… so charts, x-rays, and increased mobility don’t count as data when coming from chiropractors. Hmm… I suppose annecdotal evidence IS pretty useless, otherwise MD’s might ask how a certain medication makes a patient “feel”, which is an unscientific, unqualified observation based on their perceptions at the time… oh wait.

“Show me double blind tests or large scale epidemiological studies. THAT’S evidence.”

As soon as you (not YOU, but scientific community You) can quantify that a back/joint/mobility issue is caused by the same thing to the same degree in seperate people, I guess science will be all over that. But since a lot of shoulder/back/etc. pain is hard to isolate to a specific cause, Dr.’s just try to mask it with pain meds and hope it goes away. Surgeries are often a last ditch effort and are definitly NOT guaranteed to work.

Do your research, check out the reputation of the WHATEVER medical professional you intend to see. I know, I know, it’s only that primitive annecdotal nonsense, but I haven’t noticed any full body scanning technology that gives you an accurate rating on the person’s abilities or training.

The one chiropractor I know socially, kept her children home from pre-school because they were administering the flu vaccine through nasal mist. She was scared the “live” virus would become airborne and infect everyone. So far, no one in attendance that day has come done with symptoms. As much as I adore her children, I almost wish they would come down with the flu, just so we can ask her how that happened.

I once had a spontaneous mystical experience. So have thousands of others through out history. Despite its powerful emotional effects I must still say, IT AIN’T EVIDENCE for ANYTHING, other than the complexity of the human nervous system. It certainly isn’t evidence for god, or the validity of religion, yet people consistently refer to some other humans self reported experience as “evidence” of ,,,something,,,significant.

I occasionally have lower back pain. Strained muscles will do that, Ya Know? It’s part of our evolutionary history. I deal with the problem with heat and specific exercises designed to slowly stretch the muscles. After a day or two, the pain dissipates. Gee, I must be a chiropractor,,,NOT.

Anecdotes are not objective evidence. I love my children. That’s subjective and anecdotal. I raised, clothed, educated and would die to defend them from harm. THAT’S a little closer to OBJECTIVE evidence. I hope all those well meaning people who regale us with their personal, anecdotal tales of success with alternative treatment understand, they’re just spinning tales. Not one of those tales has any objective validity. The best that can be said for them is that they MAY indicate something we should check with experimental research to see if they have any connection with reality.

Gary 7

Granted these are not definitive studies, but they do provide evidence of efficacy beyond back pain, and indicate the need for more robust studies.

The Council on Chiropractic Guidelines and Practice Parameters (CCGPP) has published comprehensive reviews of the scientific literature on the efficacy of chiropractic care for conditions such as low back, neck pain, lower extremities, soft tissue injuries, etc. Inquiring (read: not closed) minds can check themselves at http://www.ccgpp.org. US organizations including the US Agency for Health Care Policy research has concluded that chiropractic care is safe and effective.

Speaking of safety: doctors of chiropractic (DC’s) pay the lowest malpractice premiums of any kind of doctor. Premiums are based on risk, and if the risk was really as bad as many of the contributors here believe, surely that number would be higher.
Most uninformed critics cite the fear of neck manipulation and stroke. As “what the heck” notes, a 10 year study of the issue was published in Spine (the top orthopedic journal in the world) last year (SPINE Volume 33, Number 4S, pp S176–S183) and concluded that the attribution of these injuries to chiropractors was unfounded. They looked at EVERY stroke case in a certain Canadian province, and then checked to see if the pt had seen a DC sometime near the incident. They also looked to see if the stroke pt had seen a family practitioner before.

What they found was that the incidence of stoke associated with seeing the MD was higher than that associated with seeing a DC. What is the point? Association versus causation. There is an association with stroke and chiro visits, but it is lower than that association with MD vists. Why? Because pts with evolving vertebral artery dissections, which can lead to stroke, have as their symptoms severe neck pain and headache. Whom do these folks consult? Their family MD or DC. Thus there is an association, but not causation. The sun coming up doesnt cause newspapers to appear on doorsteps, but it is associated with it.

The authors concluded there is no increased risk associated with artery dissection and chiropractic care. Previous risk assessments put the risk at one in a million to one in 5.85 million adjustments. Contrast that to the use of ibuprofen, which kills 30,000 in the US annually and has an estimated risk of serious liver, kidney or gastrointestinal injury of one in 3000. Which is safer?

Finally, yes, there are DC’s who promise ridiculous things, and are more in it for the money than their patients. That is wrong, and the profession is trying to rid the barrel of the bad apples. The vast majority of DC’s are hard working, ethical people who want to help others, and spend 7-8 years learning the science, art and philosophy associated with the profession, in order to serve their patients.

One last thing: the chiropractic profession originated many of the interventions which would later become used by the physical therapy profession.

I hope the injection of some actual facts doesnt deter the discourse.

I have had two very distinct events that I have personally had resolved by a chiropractor. Both times I took muscle relaxant drugs for my back and neither time did they do anything useful other than make me pass out. Both times took a chiropractor doing a variety of things such as heat therapy, muscle movement and some stretching that I could not do by myself. After each of these I was “cured” effectively. I know some people that haven’t been helped by chiropractors with the same symptoms I have had.

Does this make it bad medicine? No. Is it a tool that doctors can use? Yes. Does it work 100% of the time? No. Do drugs work 100% of the time on everyone? No. Have I found many M.D.’s who are just as ignorant about the drugs they offer and the solutions they give? Yes. Are the M.D.’s that serve up these drugs blindly just as bad as the chiropractors that sell their services as a cure all? I think most would agree as Yes.

That all being said I think this has been good article on the fact that some Chiropractors are Honest and have Integrity and know what they can/can’t do. You do your article some injustice by dismissing it as “false medicine” and “I would never go to one”.

Please give up your comic books and read something published about chiropractic by a member of the majority of the profession. The profession has advanced beyond 1895 and so should your research into the subject. “bone out of place” “subluxation theory” is not a mainstream chiropractic concept anymore. Look into viscero-somatic and somato-visceral reflex arcs. Look into look into the innervation of joints and sympathetic and parasympathetic reflex actions. Mechanical dysfunction does impact function.

Medicine TRIES

I try to stay away from heavy pain pill use and the good doctor helps a ton. I would not be going to any doctor repeatedly if the results weren’t as good as they are. The doctor has even recommended a type of exercise that I would have never thought of to strengthen my back and keep things in check. When I row (yes, like a boat) regularly and often I do not make appointments, unfortunately I don’t always have the time for it, I get lazy like everyone else.

A definite selling point for my chiro is that he has told me that if he didn’t feel like he could help with my problem that he wouldn’t treat me. He chided me after a four month hiatus from treatment because I had cut back rowing and needed adjustment. I truly get the feeling from this particular doctor that he would be elated if I only came in to visit for the holidays because I no longer needed treatment.

All that said, I think most chiros are quacks and snake oil salesmen and only started chiro because the used car lots wouldn’t take them. I have known far too many people who have continued to see a chiro for years only to be told that the reason they are still being treated is because they are asking for appointments. My chiro does confidence counseling as well but has never pushed whack job neo-holistic crap that I hear is floating around these days.

Chiropractic works just fine. Otherwise there wouldn’t be Chiropractic Clinics everywhere you go.

Also, that is one of the most illogical, convoluted statements I’ve ever read about chiros. Sheesh, there are psychic palm readers everywhere you go to, doesn’t make it true or real.

What I thought of was Payday Loans, there are dozens of them within a few miles of me (live in a ‘low income area’), but that doesn’t mean that they are a better idea than loans from a bank or credit union. Ironically, one of the Payday Loan shops right around the corner from me had a Hollywood Video go out of business, and it was replaced with a Pawn Shop!

J/P=?

I went to a chiropractor a few years back, for chronic lower back pain. After attending a “mandatory” evening meeting to tell me how chiropractics can cure everything, because keeping the spine healthy keeps nerves healthy, keeping you healthy, I started getting adjustments about 3 times a week. X-rays showed a “subluxation” in my neck, which was obviously a horrific thing, and needed immediate care, and all my requests regarding my lower back were pretty much ignored. Finally, an adjustment was performed, where I had a strap placed under the back of my head (with the doc holding the ends of the strap), my legs hooked over the exam table, and the doctor pulled. At first the gentle stretch felt good, but when he JERKED the strap, I felt two things pop, lower back, and shoulder. I nearly cried.

The next day, I could barely move my neck, and my back was incredibly stiff and sore. The day after that, a long time family friend told me of his experiences with a chiropractor, which ended in cortizone shots, and several painful surgeries. He no longer has full range of motion in his neck, and can barely bend over, due to the damage the chiro inflicted. He begged me to stop seeing the chiropractor.

I returned the gear to my chiro the next day, and stopped seeing him.

Now, here’s the odd thing. My friend’s wife still sees a chiro on occasion, but he is the type who knows what he can and cannot do. He took one look at my friend, and was the one who said “I will not touch you, I can’t help you”, and regularly sends people to specialists when he knows he can’t, or shouldn’t, help. I will never see a chiro again, but I don’t think they’re all bad apples, so long as they realize they aren’t the gods of medicine a lot of them seem to think they are.

At least Gadfly persisted in finding someone to help him. Most of you post with the attitude of “eating one bad apple equals all fruit is bad” when it comes to chiropractic and then you go to biased websites and books to back up your uninformed presumption. You have one bad experience and that is it or even worse, you know nothing about the subject and yet think you are an expert and display your ignorance. Neither medicine or chiropractic is good or bad, they both are inexact sciences attempting to treat a human body that neither profession knows much about (sorry to disillusion you folks). And the biggest problem for either practitioner is that most patients will not take responsibility for the condition they are in and expect the “magic cure” in pill form or one magic manipulation that does not inconvenience them and in one visit that somebody else pays for.

To those of you that throw out irrational fears of neck manipulation, please be advised that the number of incidents related to chiropractic manipulation is statistically insignificant according to the research and that the number of artery dissections occurring after visiting a family doctor are much higher and in any event the condition was progressing long before visiting the GP or the chiropractor. Going to stop going to your GP? (that would be as stupid as are the irrational fears of going to a chiropractor)

By the way, chiropractic education is associated with universities in Australia, the US, Spain and other countries and your ignorance shows when you compare chiropractic with physical therapy; PT’s can’t interpret x-rays, can’t make a diagnosis, have no clinical lab training etc, etc. PT’s do a great job in helping people with significant disabilities and injuries, but they are limited by law and training.

Not that my post will change any minds, but it is really amazing how willing people are to display their ignorance of a subject in this kind of forum. Analogy would be just reading “liberal” literature and then considering oneself an expert on “conservatism” (or in some cases looking at a picture on the cover of a liberal magazine and then being an expert on conservatives).

Carry on, and I am sure you will.

Also, I have a few points to make about anecdotal evidence and skepticism. For one thing, there’s nothing wrong with being covinced by anecdotal evidence WHEN IT’S YOUR OWN ANECDOTE. For instance, I don’t believe in alien abductions — but if I, personally, was abducted by aliens, and was able to convince myself that I had not dreamed or hallucinated the entire experience, then I’d be forced to revise my beliefs. I’d understand if you chose not to, though.

Also, not all anecdotal evidence is of the same value. If someone says that lemon grass tea cured their cancer, we are right to dismiss their evidence, as there’s no way of telling whether or not the cancer would have gone away without it. That’s what scientific trials are for. On the other hand, if someone says that they take lemon grass tea every time they get asthma, and the asthma always clears up within fifteen minutes, and when they don’t have access to the tea then it lasts for several hours, then I think we can provisionally agree that the tea clears up the asthma, at least for that particular individual.

Finally, just because a few people are injured by chiropractors is not proof that they’re all bad; conventional medicine messes up frequently as well (hence the malpractice industry) but that doesn’t mean it’s worthless.

“My personal Chiropractor would kindly put you in your place. With the charts, data and testimonials to back it up.”

Forget about the charts and testimonials, as those aren’t relevant, but that data you speak of? It’s too bad that the BCA doesn’t have access to that. It would certainly speed up their litigation against Mr. Singh!

It’s even sillier than that: party A complains about party B to party C – even though party C has no jurisdiction over party B – because party D wrote something about party E and party B reprinted it.

I suspect the reason Phil regards this as serious is two-fold. First, chiropractors can do real, serious, physical harm. That’s important – heck, that’s enough to warrant this type of response. But to my mind, that’s secondary – after all, we also let people drink, smoke, and do abusive sports, etc.

Perhaps more importantly, allowing this sort of wrong thinking to go on encourages others to think it’s all right – that it’s a valid way to go about understanding reality, and making rational informed decisions. It’s not. And if people think that it is, and they start (or in our case continue) running the world this way, well, we all suffer. Including Phil, me, and a lot of other people who have learned how to tell reality from fantasy, belief from evidence.

Also, that is one of the most illogical, convoluted statements I’ve ever read about chiros. Sheesh, there are psychic palm readers everywhere you go to, doesn’t make it true or real. Try some critical thinking backed by facts. Oh, wait, who needs facts when biased assumptions will do. Glenn Beck, is that you?

It’s time for these people to start producing evidence or just disappear. I’m so sick of coddling nonsense. Stick it to these ignorant fools Phil!