<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: The Stonemaker&#8217;s nitpicking Argument</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/11/02/the-stonemakers-nitpicking-argument/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/11/02/the-stonemakers-nitpicking-argument/</link>
	<description>I am an astronomer, writer, and skeptic. I likes reality the way it is, and I aims to keep it that way. My real name is Phil Plait, and I run the Bad Astronomy blog.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 00:46:56 -0600</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Markle</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/11/02/the-stonemakers-nitpicking-argument/comment-page-2/#comment-224733</link>
		<dc:creator>Markle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 06:58:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=6935#comment-224733</guid>
		<description>All this kerfluffle and nobody noticed that the pedantic cartoonist painted the crescent moon 90 degrees off?  A just risen waning crescent would have its &#039;horns&#039; pointing away from its rising location.

There&#039;s another option, of course.  Since we&#039;re talking about a bedtime story that doesn&#039;t appear to be illustrated, a retrograde moon could rise in the same part of the sky(wasn&#039;t mentioned) that the sun set.  It would then be a crescent and rise towards fullness in the synodic period.  We haven&#039;t had orbital or even planetary rotational periods defined either.  There are lots of ways to make everything but the way the artist painted the moon with respect to the horizon work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All this kerfluffle and nobody noticed that the pedantic cartoonist painted the crescent moon 90 degrees off?  A just risen waning crescent would have its &#8216;horns&#8217; pointing away from its rising location.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s another option, of course.  Since we&#8217;re talking about a bedtime story that doesn&#8217;t appear to be illustrated, a retrograde moon could rise in the same part of the sky(wasn&#8217;t mentioned) that the sun set.  It would then be a crescent and rise towards fullness in the synodic period.  We haven&#8217;t had orbital or even planetary rotational periods defined either.  There are lots of ways to make everything but the way the artist painted the moon with respect to the horizon work.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: The Stonemaker Argument &#124; Genetics News</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/11/02/the-stonemakers-nitpicking-argument/comment-page-2/#comment-224704</link>
		<dc:creator>The Stonemaker Argument &#124; Genetics News</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 00:03:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=6935#comment-224704</guid>
		<description>[...] (via Bad Astronomy) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] (via Bad Astronomy) [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Nigel Depledge</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/11/02/the-stonemakers-nitpicking-argument/comment-page-2/#comment-224605</link>
		<dc:creator>Nigel Depledge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 12:23:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=6935#comment-224605</guid>
		<description>Nekura (31) said:
&lt;blockquote&gt;I have to agree with Jeremy, there is a distinction between questioning the science, and questioning the fiction, i.e. future technology. Stating that FTL is impossible, or demanding a justification for it, shows a lack of an ability to accept new ideas. Any scientist who thinks they already know the answer before they try an experiment is not a good scientist.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I disagree with you on this.

While it is true that dismissing something as impossible is, in principle, poor judgement, there are plenty of situations in science where we actually do know enough to dismiss something as impossible (such as a modern mammal species evolving into a new species of insect).

The best scientists are those that ask the right questions in such a way that they obtain a new answer.

&lt;blockquote&gt;@AliCali #28

When she asked “Why is the sky red with no atmosphere?” she was not asking “Is there something strange that we haven’t discovered yet?” she was just being pedantic.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

But not wrong.

Why should we not expect fiction to exist in the same universe - with, ergo, the same laws of physics and chemistry - as we do?  If there is no atmosphere, the sky should be black.  If the sky is coloured, &lt;i&gt;that means there is an atmosphere&lt;/i&gt;.  A simple observation leading to a rock-solid conclusion.  But (potentially) undermined by sloppy fiction.

&lt;blockquote&gt;It is okay to question, but there is a point in reading sci-fi where the answer should be “This is the fiction, so it’s okay” and the question never goes beyond the readers head.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Why?  You state this as a given, but you make no attempt to justify your claim.  I accept that most sci-fi must ignore basic rules of how the universe works in order to create and drive the story.  However, why should not the background details be correct?  Why should we not care about ignorance or carelessness?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nekura (31) said:</p>
<blockquote><p>I have to agree with Jeremy, there is a distinction between questioning the science, and questioning the fiction, i.e. future technology. Stating that FTL is impossible, or demanding a justification for it, shows a lack of an ability to accept new ideas. Any scientist who thinks they already know the answer before they try an experiment is not a good scientist.</p></blockquote>
<p>I disagree with you on this.</p>
<p>While it is true that dismissing something as impossible is, in principle, poor judgement, there are plenty of situations in science where we actually do know enough to dismiss something as impossible (such as a modern mammal species evolving into a new species of insect).</p>
<p>The best scientists are those that ask the right questions in such a way that they obtain a new answer.</p>
<blockquote><p>@AliCali #28</p>
<p>When she asked “Why is the sky red with no atmosphere?” she was not asking “Is there something strange that we haven’t discovered yet?” she was just being pedantic.</p></blockquote>
<p>But not wrong.</p>
<p>Why should we not expect fiction to exist in the same universe &#8211; with, ergo, the same laws of physics and chemistry &#8211; as we do?  If there is no atmosphere, the sky should be black.  If the sky is coloured, <i>that means there is an atmosphere</i>.  A simple observation leading to a rock-solid conclusion.  But (potentially) undermined by sloppy fiction.</p>
<blockquote><p>It is okay to question, but there is a point in reading sci-fi where the answer should be “This is the fiction, so it’s okay” and the question never goes beyond the readers head.</p></blockquote>
<p>Why?  You state this as a given, but you make no attempt to justify your claim.  I accept that most sci-fi must ignore basic rules of how the universe works in order to create and drive the story.  However, why should not the background details be correct?  Why should we not care about ignorance or carelessness?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Gary Ansorge</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/11/02/the-stonemakers-nitpicking-argument/comment-page-2/#comment-224564</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Ansorge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 03:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=6935#comment-224564</guid>
		<description>31.   Nekura

(And just to be pedantic myself, the most time-efficient way to travel, especially interstellar travel, would be to constantly accelerate to the halfway point, and then constantly decelerate to the destination, thus arriving in the shortest amount of time.)

Actually that&#039;s inaccurate. After accelerating half way to Alpha Centauri, you&#039;d be traveling .9999999999 % of C. (approx.) I expect you&#039;d never have enough fuel to decelerate (unless you&#039;re using a Bussard ram scoop). Unless we use the magical FTL, a story gimmick I&#039;m willing to accept for consideration of aliens, etc. Unfortunately, Einstein MAY be right. If so, then we&#039;re probably limited to generation ships to the stars. Oh well, that&#039;s been done too,,,

John W. Campbell(editor of ANALOG SciFi) was basically the father of 20th century SciFi, in which he required his writers to use no more than one IMPOSSIBLE idea in a story. All else had to be within the realm of what we knew to be possible(and, of course, believable characters).

But, for me, the whole story panel was just hilarious!

GAry 7</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>31.   Nekura</p>
<p>(And just to be pedantic myself, the most time-efficient way to travel, especially interstellar travel, would be to constantly accelerate to the halfway point, and then constantly decelerate to the destination, thus arriving in the shortest amount of time.)</p>
<p>Actually that&#8217;s inaccurate. After accelerating half way to Alpha Centauri, you&#8217;d be traveling .9999999999 % of C. (approx.) I expect you&#8217;d never have enough fuel to decelerate (unless you&#8217;re using a Bussard ram scoop). Unless we use the magical FTL, a story gimmick I&#8217;m willing to accept for consideration of aliens, etc. Unfortunately, Einstein MAY be right. If so, then we&#8217;re probably limited to generation ships to the stars. Oh well, that&#8217;s been done too,,,</p>
<p>John W. Campbell(editor of ANALOG SciFi) was basically the father of 20th century SciFi, in which he required his writers to use no more than one IMPOSSIBLE idea in a story. All else had to be within the realm of what we knew to be possible(and, of course, believable characters).</p>
<p>But, for me, the whole story panel was just hilarious!</p>
<p>GAry 7</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: amphiox</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/11/02/the-stonemakers-nitpicking-argument/comment-page-2/#comment-224449</link>
		<dc:creator>amphiox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 19:08:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=6935#comment-224449</guid>
		<description>On the question of the fuel, the storyteller could also have said that the fuel was for generating the power necessary to maintain the life support systems.

The kid&#039;s questioning of the planet detection, however, is bang on. The vast majority of possible paths between Star A and Star B should not be intersected by any Star C. Even if such a Star C did exist, it&#039;s presence should have been readily known and accounted for before the trip from A to B was planned. So even if Star C exists and had a previously undetected planet circling it, the crew of the spaceship should have been aware of the existence of Star C, and the detection of a planet around it should have been an expected possibility, for which contingency plans should have been made. And if the planet detected was not near the flight path of the spaceship, it strains credulity that it would have been so easy to divert the mission to go study it. The scenario in the comic suggests either a very incompetent navigator, or a very badly planned mission from the start.

Well, maybe that&#039;s why they were running out of fuel, too. Someone at mission control asleep at the switch. . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the question of the fuel, the storyteller could also have said that the fuel was for generating the power necessary to maintain the life support systems.</p>
<p>The kid&#8217;s questioning of the planet detection, however, is bang on. The vast majority of possible paths between Star A and Star B should not be intersected by any Star C. Even if such a Star C did exist, it&#8217;s presence should have been readily known and accounted for before the trip from A to B was planned. So even if Star C exists and had a previously undetected planet circling it, the crew of the spaceship should have been aware of the existence of Star C, and the detection of a planet around it should have been an expected possibility, for which contingency plans should have been made. And if the planet detected was not near the flight path of the spaceship, it strains credulity that it would have been so easy to divert the mission to go study it. The scenario in the comic suggests either a very incompetent navigator, or a very badly planned mission from the start.</p>
<p>Well, maybe that&#8217;s why they were running out of fuel, too. Someone at mission control asleep at the switch. . . .</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Nigel Depledge</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/11/02/the-stonemakers-nitpicking-argument/comment-page-2/#comment-224403</link>
		<dc:creator>Nigel Depledge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:48:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=6935#comment-224403</guid>
		<description>Jeremy (30) said:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Yup, and also when she tries to figure out how things work, or how they might work. You know when scientific breakthroughs don’t happen? When people curtly dismiss as impossible things they can’t immediately explain with known science. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

And do you know when scientific careers go down the toilet?

When a scientist refuses to accept that his hypothesis is impossible.  Cold fusion is a good example of this.  Whether or not cold fusion is possible &lt;i&gt;at all&lt;/i&gt; was irrelevant to the fact that whatever Fleischman and Pons detected was not nuclear fusion.

Most scientists, when encountering something they cannot explain, are unlikely to dismiss a hypothesis as &quot;impossible&quot;; but they are likely to dismiss one (or several) as &quot;unlikely&quot;, based on what is already known.

What you seem to have missed is that, while we have much still to learn, there is quite a lot of stuff that we do know with a high degree of confidence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeremy (30) said:</p>
<blockquote><p>Yup, and also when she tries to figure out how things work, or how they might work. You know when scientific breakthroughs don’t happen? When people curtly dismiss as impossible things they can’t immediately explain with known science. </p></blockquote>
<p>And do you know when scientific careers go down the toilet?</p>
<p>When a scientist refuses to accept that his hypothesis is impossible.  Cold fusion is a good example of this.  Whether or not cold fusion is possible <i>at all</i> was irrelevant to the fact that whatever Fleischman and Pons detected was not nuclear fusion.</p>
<p>Most scientists, when encountering something they cannot explain, are unlikely to dismiss a hypothesis as &#8220;impossible&#8221;; but they are likely to dismiss one (or several) as &#8220;unlikely&#8221;, based on what is already known.</p>
<p>What you seem to have missed is that, while we have much still to learn, there is quite a lot of stuff that we do know with a high degree of confidence.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Nigel Depledge</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/11/02/the-stonemakers-nitpicking-argument/comment-page-2/#comment-224399</link>
		<dc:creator>Nigel Depledge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:42:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=6935#comment-224399</guid>
		<description>Jeremy (22) said:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Self-evidently true. Of course, it take far more imagination to come up with a way something COULD happen that has scientific legs than it does to simply declare “that can’t happen,” which is all this kid ever seems to do.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

In principle, you are correct.

However, in this example, you are wrong.  The child never actually says that FTL travel is impossible, she merely questions how it works, and the storyteller is unable to reply.

&lt;i&gt;However&lt;/i&gt;, you must also acknowledge that there are instances where we &lt;i&gt;know&lt;/i&gt; that certain things are indeed impossible (such as a klingon transforming into a cricket).  Or to contain a black hole by means of magnetic fields (as is used in the movie &lt;i&gt;Event Horizon&lt;/i&gt;) - magnetic fields can often counteract gravity, but they cannot nullify it. In that movie, the ship should have collapsed into the black hole.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeremy (22) said:</p>
<blockquote><p>Self-evidently true. Of course, it take far more imagination to come up with a way something COULD happen that has scientific legs than it does to simply declare “that can’t happen,” which is all this kid ever seems to do.</p></blockquote>
<p>In principle, you are correct.</p>
<p>However, in this example, you are wrong.  The child never actually says that FTL travel is impossible, she merely questions how it works, and the storyteller is unable to reply.</p>
<p><i>However</i>, you must also acknowledge that there are instances where we <i>know</i> that certain things are indeed impossible (such as a klingon transforming into a cricket).  Or to contain a black hole by means of magnetic fields (as is used in the movie <i>Event Horizon</i>) &#8211; magnetic fields can often counteract gravity, but they cannot nullify it. In that movie, the ship should have collapsed into the black hole.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
