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	<title>Comments on: When antiscience kills: dowsing edition</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/11/04/when-antiscience-kills-dowsing-edition/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/11/04/when-antiscience-kills-dowsing-edition/</link>
	<description>I am an astronomer, writer, and skeptic. I likes reality the way it is, and I aims to keep it that way. My real name is Phil Plait, and I run the Bad Astronomy blog.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 11:44:56 -0600</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Benji</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/11/04/when-antiscience-kills-dowsing-edition/comment-page-2/#comment-226964</link>
		<dc:creator>Benji</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:47:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=7091#comment-226964</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t the people in this UK company feel like they have blood on their hands?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t the people in this UK company feel like they have blood on their hands?</p>
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		<title>By: sophia8</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/11/04/when-antiscience-kills-dowsing-edition/comment-page-2/#comment-225078</link>
		<dc:creator>sophia8</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 22:36:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=7091#comment-225078</guid>
		<description>Lonnie @ 71: Please stop demonstrating your bigotry and ignorance.  I&#039;d ask you for a cite for your statement that Muslims believe that touching a dog will make them as a dog - except that I&#039;m certain you just pulled that statement out of some orifice or other.
Muslims have always used dogs for hunting, farming and guarding.  They have no problems whatsoever with working dogs; they even use guide dogs, which are allowed inside mosques.  There&#039;s even a &lt;em&gt;hadith&lt;/em&gt; (an improving parable)  about Muhammed giving water to a thirsty dog.
Dogs are regarded as &#039;unclean&#039; in Islam because, well, they&#039;re not clean animals and (in ME countries at least), it&#039;s rather easy to get diseases from them.   It&#039;s &lt;em&gt;haram&lt;/em&gt; to touch dogs with bare hands and not wash straight away, to eat them, to keep them in your living quarters or to keep them as pets.  It&#039;s perfectly permissible to work with them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lonnie @ 71: Please stop demonstrating your bigotry and ignorance.  I&#8217;d ask you for a cite for your statement that Muslims believe that touching a dog will make them as a dog &#8211; except that I&#8217;m certain you just pulled that statement out of some orifice or other.<br />
Muslims have always used dogs for hunting, farming and guarding.  They have no problems whatsoever with working dogs; they even use guide dogs, which are allowed inside mosques.  There&#8217;s even a <em>hadith</em> (an improving parable)  about Muhammed giving water to a thirsty dog.<br />
Dogs are regarded as &#8216;unclean&#8217; in Islam because, well, they&#8217;re not clean animals and (in ME countries at least), it&#8217;s rather easy to get diseases from them.   It&#8217;s <em>haram</em> to touch dogs with bare hands and not wash straight away, to eat them, to keep them in your living quarters or to keep them as pets.  It&#8217;s perfectly permissible to work with them.</p>
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		<title>By: Noah Voss</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/11/04/when-antiscience-kills-dowsing-edition/comment-page-2/#comment-224821</link>
		<dc:creator>Noah Voss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 20:41:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=7091#comment-224821</guid>
		<description>Nice work Phil, 

In my research into the paranormal, I always take the stance that I don&#039;t believe in anything but possibility. I was in over 20 different states last year alone researching and investigating reports of paranormal phenomena.  I have worked with dowsing rods many times for many years (only becuase I take the approach of since we don&#039;t have all the answers yet I will remain open to any possibility, HOWEVER I do not hold any information gathered by dowsing as objective, or quantitative [have yet to find it very useful either]).  Some of your visitors might enjoy reading all about my crazy real life supernatural adventures in my free Legend Trippers Journal
(http://www.w-files.com/legendtrippersjournal.html).

For those of you who are a bit more scientifically minded, I just released
some level headed scientific method op eds on www.GetGhostGear.com with
links right on the home page.  I think this crowd might really enjoy (and have plenty to comment on) my new op eds.  I always love constructive feedback!

Keep up the good work!
Noah Voss</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice work Phil, </p>
<p>In my research into the paranormal, I always take the stance that I don&#8217;t believe in anything but possibility. I was in over 20 different states last year alone researching and investigating reports of paranormal phenomena.  I have worked with dowsing rods many times for many years (only becuase I take the approach of since we don&#8217;t have all the answers yet I will remain open to any possibility, HOWEVER I do not hold any information gathered by dowsing as objective, or quantitative [have yet to find it very useful either]).  Some of your visitors might enjoy reading all about my crazy real life supernatural adventures in my free Legend Trippers Journal<br />
(<a href="http://www.w-files.com/legendtrippersjournal.html)" rel="nofollow">http://www.w-files.com/legendtrippersjournal.html)</a>.</p>
<p>For those of you who are a bit more scientifically minded, I just released<br />
some level headed scientific method op eds on <a href="http://www.GetGhostGear.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.GetGhostGear.com</a> with<br />
links right on the home page.  I think this crowd might really enjoy (and have plenty to comment on) my new op eds.  I always love constructive feedback!</p>
<p>Keep up the good work!<br />
Noah Voss</p>
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		<title>By: Randomness for 11/6 &#171; Twenty Palaces</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/11/04/when-antiscience-kills-dowsing-edition/comment-page-2/#comment-224762</link>
		<dc:creator>Randomness for 11/6 &#171; Twenty Palaces</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:03:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=7091#comment-224762</guid>
		<description>[...] Death by anti-science: Iraqi General to use dowsing rods to detect IEDs. From the article: &#8220;He is such a believer that the Iraqi military are abandoning proven [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Death by anti-science: Iraqi General to use dowsing rods to detect IEDs. From the article: &#8220;He is such a believer that the Iraqi military are abandoning proven [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Gus Snarp</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/11/04/when-antiscience-kills-dowsing-edition/comment-page-2/#comment-224753</link>
		<dc:creator>Gus Snarp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 14:49:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=7091#comment-224753</guid>
		<description>@PaulMurray - No, the guys who make predator drones are making a lot of money off blowing people up, not letting people get blown up.  I don&#039;t support this war, I don&#039;t support the way it has been waged, nor the one in Afghanistan, but there is a difference between making a product that does what it claims (kills people) for the military (which may be morally wrong, but is legally right and is viewed as morally acceptable by a large number, perhaps the majority of the people of the nation) and making a product that you KNOW doesn&#039;t do what you claim (protect people from being bombs) and intentionally selling that product at an over-inflated price to the gullible, all the while knowing when you see a news report about 100 innocent people killed by a car bomb, that people were counting on your product to prevent that bombing, even though you knew there was no way it could.

@Donovan Colbert - the makers of this device, and any one who uses it in the face of all recommendations that it is ineffective, are guilty of negligent homicide, at the least.  The bombers are of course guilty of a higher crime, but to say that no blame falls to the makers of this device flies in the face of reason and of the law.

If this device were used in the U.S. and failed to detect a bomb that killed hundreds of people, I guarantee you that the manufacturers and those who selected the device would be prosecuted in criminal court and sued in civil court, successfully.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@PaulMurray &#8211; No, the guys who make predator drones are making a lot of money off blowing people up, not letting people get blown up.  I don&#8217;t support this war, I don&#8217;t support the way it has been waged, nor the one in Afghanistan, but there is a difference between making a product that does what it claims (kills people) for the military (which may be morally wrong, but is legally right and is viewed as morally acceptable by a large number, perhaps the majority of the people of the nation) and making a product that you KNOW doesn&#8217;t do what you claim (protect people from being bombs) and intentionally selling that product at an over-inflated price to the gullible, all the while knowing when you see a news report about 100 innocent people killed by a car bomb, that people were counting on your product to prevent that bombing, even though you knew there was no way it could.</p>
<p>@Donovan Colbert &#8211; the makers of this device, and any one who uses it in the face of all recommendations that it is ineffective, are guilty of negligent homicide, at the least.  The bombers are of course guilty of a higher crime, but to say that no blame falls to the makers of this device flies in the face of reason and of the law.</p>
<p>If this device were used in the U.S. and failed to detect a bomb that killed hundreds of people, I guarantee you that the manufacturers and those who selected the device would be prosecuted in criminal court and sued in civil court, successfully.</p>
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		<title>By: Nigel Depledge</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/11/04/when-antiscience-kills-dowsing-edition/comment-page-2/#comment-224746</link>
		<dc:creator>Nigel Depledge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 12:15:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=7091#comment-224746</guid>
		<description>Derek Martin (80) said:
&lt;blockquote&gt;I’m not saying that dowsing works 100% of the time, but it does work more often than it should if there were nothing to it (i.e. it is more accurate than chance).&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Please cite the appropriate double-blind trials that have demonstrated this.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Part of the problem is that Thought influences Outcome, as demonstrated by the Heisenberg Principle.
Belief is a type of thought.
Skepticism taints the experiment.
If it were done in an environment of enthusiasm instead of skepticism, you would find that dowsing totally works. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

And you will find that no experiment can produce a reliable result unless one approaches it with scepticism.  Experiments must be performed in such a way that they &lt;b&gt;convince&lt;/b&gt; sceptics, but you seem to require &lt;i&gt;a priori&lt;/i&gt; belief in an outcome before you start your experiment.

BTW, you have not understood the Uncertainty Principle.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Look no further than the experiments of Tom Lethbridge, archaeologist &amp; former curator of Anglo-Saxon antiquities exhibit at the Archaeological Museum in Cambridge. He was a famous archaeologist, and made many of his best discoveries using “pendulum dowsing”.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I find myself feeling sceptical about this.

&lt;blockquote&gt;That being said, I probably wouldn’t want to bet my life on it.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Whereas I &lt;i&gt;would&lt;/i&gt; bet my life on scientifically-proven methods (e.g. I do it every time I get into an aircraft).  Case closed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Derek Martin (80) said:</p>
<blockquote><p>I’m not saying that dowsing works 100% of the time, but it does work more often than it should if there were nothing to it (i.e. it is more accurate than chance).</p></blockquote>
<p>Please cite the appropriate double-blind trials that have demonstrated this.</p>
<blockquote><p>Part of the problem is that Thought influences Outcome, as demonstrated by the Heisenberg Principle.<br />
Belief is a type of thought.<br />
Skepticism taints the experiment.<br />
If it were done in an environment of enthusiasm instead of skepticism, you would find that dowsing totally works. </p></blockquote>
<p>And you will find that no experiment can produce a reliable result unless one approaches it with scepticism.  Experiments must be performed in such a way that they <b>convince</b> sceptics, but you seem to require <i>a priori</i> belief in an outcome before you start your experiment.</p>
<p>BTW, you have not understood the Uncertainty Principle.</p>
<blockquote><p>Look no further than the experiments of Tom Lethbridge, archaeologist &#038; former curator of Anglo-Saxon antiquities exhibit at the Archaeological Museum in Cambridge. He was a famous archaeologist, and made many of his best discoveries using “pendulum dowsing”.</p></blockquote>
<p>I find myself feeling sceptical about this.</p>
<blockquote><p>That being said, I probably wouldn’t want to bet my life on it.</p></blockquote>
<p>Whereas I <i>would</i> bet my life on scientifically-proven methods (e.g. I do it every time I get into an aircraft).  Case closed.</p>
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		<title>By: Nigel Depledge</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/11/04/when-antiscience-kills-dowsing-edition/comment-page-2/#comment-224745</link>
		<dc:creator>Nigel Depledge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 12:07:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=7091#comment-224745</guid>
		<description>Dubliners (77) said:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Better get Jennifer Oulette to teach you all how to un-wad your panties. Umm,let’s see $millions to irobot who produced…..uh, how’s bout Foster-Miller’s little robbie that took hundreds of millions, 4 years to get to Iraq and then turned its guns on US troops. Or the $billions on GPR/metal detectors which work great if NO water (so forget fields and waterways)is present or plastic mines are buried in dry sand. Oh yeah can’t be any Al cans around either. Oh, what happened to DOE’s melt ‘em all ray gun of 2004?
And all those airborne platforms that were to find everything?

Any officer that tries to save my kids’ lives has my vote.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

But you are confusing those things that don&#039;t work &lt;i&gt;yet&lt;/i&gt; (but are founded on genuine science) with something that will never work because it is founded on fantasy (dowsing).  The two categories are qualitatively different.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dubliners (77) said:</p>
<blockquote><p>Better get Jennifer Oulette to teach you all how to un-wad your panties. Umm,let’s see $millions to irobot who produced…..uh, how’s bout Foster-Miller’s little robbie that took hundreds of millions, 4 years to get to Iraq and then turned its guns on US troops. Or the $billions on GPR/metal detectors which work great if NO water (so forget fields and waterways)is present or plastic mines are buried in dry sand. Oh yeah can’t be any Al cans around either. Oh, what happened to DOE’s melt ‘em all ray gun of 2004?<br />
And all those airborne platforms that were to find everything?</p>
<p>Any officer that tries to save my kids’ lives has my vote.</p></blockquote>
<p>But you are confusing those things that don&#8217;t work <i>yet</i> (but are founded on genuine science) with something that will never work because it is founded on fantasy (dowsing).  The two categories are qualitatively different.</p>
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