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	<title>Comments on: UPDATE: Simon Singh libel case</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/02/23/update-simon-singh-libel-case/</link>
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		<title>By: Showcase Listing</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/02/23/update-simon-singh-libel-case/#comment-222989</link>
		<dc:creator>Showcase Listing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Mar 2010 19:48:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=12178#comment-222989</guid>
		<description>So, is he having a hard time proving that what he said was true? Libel laws seem kind of whack.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, is he having a hard time proving that what he said was true? Libel laws seem kind of whack.</p>
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		<title>By: Ginger Yellow</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/02/23/update-simon-singh-libel-case/#comment-222988</link>
		<dc:creator>Ginger Yellow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 17:00:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=12178#comment-222988</guid>
		<description>As I&#039;ve argued before, the main problem with libel law in England and Wales (and in NI, Australia and other places that follow English law closely) isn&#039;t the burden of proof aspect. It&#039;s the extremely broad jurisdictional claim, combined with the enormous cost of defending a libel case (most claims are brought on a conditional fee basis). Basically something is deemed to have been published in the UK if it was able to have been read in the UK, no matter where it was actually published. US books, US websites, US newspapers - these all come under English jurisdiction &lt;i&gt;even if there is no active distribution in the UK&lt;/i&gt;. Moreover, anyone involved in the chain of publication (author, publisher, bookseller, ISP) is a potential defendant, giving vexatious claimants a rich variety of targets depending on their goal. On top of that, libel costs excluding damages are 140(!) times the European average.

There are also lots of other smaller issues that undermine a defendant&#039;s ability to prove the truth of the defamatory statement - see for instance the Bower/Black case, where the judge tried to exclude extremely pertinent evidence but thankfully was overruled on appeal.

Taken together that provides a pretty big chilling effect for anyone within the reach of English courts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I&#8217;ve argued before, the main problem with libel law in England and Wales (and in NI, Australia and other places that follow English law closely) isn&#8217;t the burden of proof aspect. It&#8217;s the extremely broad jurisdictional claim, combined with the enormous cost of defending a libel case (most claims are brought on a conditional fee basis). Basically something is deemed to have been published in the UK if it was able to have been read in the UK, no matter where it was actually published. US books, US websites, US newspapers &#8211; these all come under English jurisdiction <i>even if there is no active distribution in the UK</i>. Moreover, anyone involved in the chain of publication (author, publisher, bookseller, ISP) is a potential defendant, giving vexatious claimants a rich variety of targets depending on their goal. On top of that, libel costs excluding damages are 140(!) times the European average.</p>
<p>There are also lots of other smaller issues that undermine a defendant&#8217;s ability to prove the truth of the defamatory statement &#8211; see for instance the Bower/Black case, where the judge tried to exclude extremely pertinent evidence but thankfully was overruled on appeal.</p>
<p>Taken together that provides a pretty big chilling effect for anyone within the reach of English courts.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert E</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/02/23/update-simon-singh-libel-case/#comment-222987</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert E</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:51:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=12178#comment-222987</guid>
		<description>The person should have to show that the statements are true -- it should be much easier for them to prove they are true than for you to prove they are false.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The person should have to show that the statements are true &#8212; it should be much easier for them to prove they are true than for you to prove they are false.</p>
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		<title>By: English libel law is an ass</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/02/23/update-simon-singh-libel-case/#comment-222986</link>
		<dc:creator>English libel law is an ass</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:11:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=12178#comment-222986</guid>
		<description>[...] UPDATE: Simon Singh libel case (blogs.discovermagazine.com) [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] UPDATE: Simon Singh libel case (blogs.discovermagazine.com) [...] </p>
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		<title>By: Ginger Yellow</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/02/23/update-simon-singh-libel-case/#comment-222985</link>
		<dc:creator>Ginger Yellow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 13:31:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=12178#comment-222985</guid>
		<description>&quot;Tricky, isn’t it. A person makes a statement that you consider defamatory. Should you – as the complainant – be required to show that the statement is defamatory, or should the publisher – as the defendant – be required to show that the statement is not defamatory?&quot;

Technically speaking, in English law, a claimant first has to show the statement is defamatory. In other words, the claimant has to prove that the words complained of were published in the UK (this is interpreted extremely broadly by English courts), they are a statement of a fact, they identify the claimant, and that they would lower the reputation of the claimant in the eyes of a reasonable person. If this is done, that&#039;s when the burden of proof switches to the defendant and they have to argue a defence, one of which is truth (aka justification). Now, in practice, because of the way the English courts have construed the statute(s), it&#039;s extremely easy to prove defamation, so that&#039;s why people say the burden of proof is on the defendant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Tricky, isn’t it. A person makes a statement that you consider defamatory. Should you – as the complainant – be required to show that the statement is defamatory, or should the publisher – as the defendant – be required to show that the statement is not defamatory?&#8221;</p>
<p>Technically speaking, in English law, a claimant first has to show the statement is defamatory. In other words, the claimant has to prove that the words complained of were published in the UK (this is interpreted extremely broadly by English courts), they are a statement of a fact, they identify the claimant, and that they would lower the reputation of the claimant in the eyes of a reasonable person. If this is done, that&#8217;s when the burden of proof switches to the defendant and they have to argue a defence, one of which is truth (aka justification). Now, in practice, because of the way the English courts have construed the statute(s), it&#8217;s extremely easy to prove defamation, so that&#8217;s why people say the burden of proof is on the defendant.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/02/23/update-simon-singh-libel-case/#comment-222984</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:14:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=12178#comment-222984</guid>
		<description>Tricky, isn&#039;t it.  A person makes a statement that you consider defamatory.  Should you - as the complainant - be required to show that the statement is defamatory, or should the publisher - as the defendant - be required to show that the statement is not defamatory?

Or, to put it another way, someone makes damaging allegations against you.  Should you be required to show that the allegations are false, or should the person making the allegations be required to show that they are true?

Remembering in both cases a civil court hearing a libel case will make its decision on the balance of probabilities, based on the evidence provided by the parties.

The law generally requires a person who asserts a positive position to show at least prima facie evidence for it, before the other party has to provide evidence in rebuttal.  Is the positive position the original statement / allegation, or the complaint about it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tricky, isn&#8217;t it.  A person makes a statement that you consider defamatory.  Should you &#8211; as the complainant &#8211; be required to show that the statement is defamatory, or should the publisher &#8211; as the defendant &#8211; be required to show that the statement is not defamatory?</p>
<p>Or, to put it another way, someone makes damaging allegations against you.  Should you be required to show that the allegations are false, or should the person making the allegations be required to show that they are true?</p>
<p>Remembering in both cases a civil court hearing a libel case will make its decision on the balance of probabilities, based on the evidence provided by the parties.</p>
<p>The law generally requires a person who asserts a positive position to show at least prima facie evidence for it, before the other party has to provide evidence in rebuttal.  Is the positive position the original statement / allegation, or the complaint about it?</p>
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		<title>By: Ginger Yellow</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/02/23/update-simon-singh-libel-case/#comment-222983</link>
		<dc:creator>Ginger Yellow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:43:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=12178#comment-222983</guid>
		<description>&quot;In the UK, super-injunctions are much-maligned, but they are there for a reason.&quot;

Super-injunctions are rarely (if ever - I&#039;d have to check) granted for potentially libellous material. They&#039;re typically granted for breach of privacy (John Terry) or breach of confidentiality (Trafigura, Barclays).

FYI, the Commons Select Committee for Culture, Media and Sport published a huge &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmcumeds.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;report&lt;/a&gt; today on the press, including many recommendations for libel reform. For non-Brits, you need to bear in mind that select committees have very little power in practice, but they do set the tone of debate to a certain degree and it&#039;s a very good thing that they&#039;re on board. I&#039;m not hugely optimistic that there&#039;s going to be wholesale reform of libel law, but it seems pretty clear now that there will be more than cosmetic changes in the next couple of years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;In the UK, super-injunctions are much-maligned, but they are there for a reason.&#8221;</p>
<p>Super-injunctions are rarely (if ever &#8211; I&#8217;d have to check) granted for potentially libellous material. They&#8217;re typically granted for breach of privacy (John Terry) or breach of confidentiality (Trafigura, Barclays).</p>
<p>FYI, the Commons Select Committee for Culture, Media and Sport published a huge <a href="http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmcumeds.htm" rel="nofollow">report</a> today on the press, including many recommendations for libel reform. For non-Brits, you need to bear in mind that select committees have very little power in practice, but they do set the tone of debate to a certain degree and it&#8217;s a very good thing that they&#8217;re on board. I&#8217;m not hugely optimistic that there&#8217;s going to be wholesale reform of libel law, but it seems pretty clear now that there will be more than cosmetic changes in the next couple of years.</p>
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		<title>By: W J</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/02/23/update-simon-singh-libel-case/#comment-222982</link>
		<dc:creator>W J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:27:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=12178#comment-222982</guid>
		<description>Phil,

Thanks for alerting me to this - I&#039;m English but hadn&#039;t heard about this case until reading it on your blog, so first off - keep posting things like this! I&#039;ve signed the petition.

I and many of my friends have been taking chiropractic treatment for (in my case) severe upper-lower back pain, probably hereditary, and for other back/shoulder/neck issues, but not for any of the really alternative things some chiro&#039;s suggest they can fix..

We probably share the same views on whether/not Chiro can fix all sorts of weird illnesses, but specifically I was wondering about your views on the treatment of back pain - specifically, do you know of any cases where it&#039;s been detrimental to sufferers of back pain to visit a chiropractor?

Cheers!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil,</p>
<p>Thanks for alerting me to this &#8211; I&#8217;m English but hadn&#8217;t heard about this case until reading it on your blog, so first off &#8211; keep posting things like this! I&#8217;ve signed the petition.</p>
<p>I and many of my friends have been taking chiropractic treatment for (in my case) severe upper-lower back pain, probably hereditary, and for other back/shoulder/neck issues, but not for any of the really alternative things some chiro&#8217;s suggest they can fix..</p>
<p>We probably share the same views on whether/not Chiro can fix all sorts of weird illnesses, but specifically I was wondering about your views on the treatment of back pain &#8211; specifically, do you know of any cases where it&#8217;s been detrimental to sufferers of back pain to visit a chiropractor?</p>
<p>Cheers!</p>
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		<title>By: Gary</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/02/23/update-simon-singh-libel-case/#comment-222981</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:02:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=12178#comment-222981</guid>
		<description>I think that if Simon Singh loses this appeal we should stage a mass-libel against the BCA. If the 100,000 people who signed the petition to rid us of these stupid libel laws were to all write a piece saying the BCA promotes bogus cures, the BCA wouldn&#039;t be able to sue everyone and the entire libel system wouldn&#039;t be able to cope, that would force Britain&#039;s judges to reform it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that if Simon Singh loses this appeal we should stage a mass-libel against the BCA. If the 100,000 people who signed the petition to rid us of these stupid libel laws were to all write a piece saying the BCA promotes bogus cures, the BCA wouldn&#8217;t be able to sue everyone and the entire libel system wouldn&#8217;t be able to cope, that would force Britain&#8217;s judges to reform it.</p>
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		<title>By: Messier Tidy Upper</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/02/23/update-simon-singh-libel-case/#comment-222980</link>
		<dc:creator>Messier Tidy Upper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 06:37:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=12178#comment-222980</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The way it’s set up, the burden of proof is on the accused to show what they said was &lt;b&gt;not&lt;/b&gt; libel, rather than on the accuser to show that it is libel. &lt;/i&gt;

I&#039;m no lawyer but doesn&#039;t that principle seem to totally contradict the key legal justice idea of  &lt;b&gt;Presumption of Innocence&lt;/b&gt;?

Shouldn&#039;t Simon Singh &amp; others accused of libel be presumed&lt;u&gt; innocent&lt;/u&gt; until proven guilty of libel with it being up to the prosecution - those saying he is guilty of libel - to prove guilt *beyond reasonable doubt* here?

The truth &amp; the right to express your views - esp. true ones - freely should be a paramount defence too.

PS,. Just seen that (# 7.)   Steve Huntwork has beaten me to it. Oh well. I agree &amp; add my voice to his. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The way it’s set up, the burden of proof is on the accused to show what they said was <b>not</b> libel, rather than on the accuser to show that it is libel. </i></p>
<p>I&#8217;m no lawyer but doesn&#8217;t that principle seem to totally contradict the key legal justice idea of  <b>Presumption of Innocence</b>?</p>
<p>Shouldn&#8217;t Simon Singh &amp; others accused of libel be presumed<u> innocent</u> until proven guilty of libel with it being up to the prosecution &#8211; those saying he is guilty of libel &#8211; to prove guilt *beyond reasonable doubt* here?</p>
<p>The truth &amp; the right to express your views &#8211; esp. true ones &#8211; freely should be a paramount defence too.</p>
<p>PS,. Just seen that (# 7.)   Steve Huntwork has beaten me to it. Oh well. I agree &amp; add my voice to his. <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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