More truth-based weapons against the antivaxxers

By Phil Plait | March 31, 2010 12:10 pm

A few antivax links for your amusement:

1) When challenged about their bizarre and provably false beliefs, a lot of antivaxxers claim that they have personal experience with their kid. That’s anecdotal and uses a small sample size, and so is prone to all sorts of logical failings. But what if the sample size is much larger and uses scientific reasoning? Then you get something like this good spanking of antivax nonsense by an actual pediatrician.

Tip o’ the syringe to David Whalley.

2) The Australian Vaccination Network is one of the most pernicious and awful of the antivax groups, as regular readers know. They may be on their way out — science, apparently, can inoculate us against such infections — but it’s still worth keeping up with the sort of offal they spew, since other groups do it as well. This article by The Australian Skeptics is an excellent exposé of AVN mendacity.

3) Healthday has an alarming article about the San Diego 2008 measles outbreak which exposed over 800 people because one family decided not to vaccinate their kid. Yes, one family started an minor epidemic that cost over $170,000 to contain and nearly killed one infant. I hope antivaxxers are proud of that one.

4) Orac once again leaps into the fray with a magnificent exposure of some bold antivax lies. It’s amazing to me just how low some antivaxxers are wiling to go — cheating, twisting, distorting, and out-and-out lying — to promote their agenda of bringing back preventable diseases.

They say they care about kids. Maybe they do. But making sure children get measles, rubella, pertussis, and other life-and-limb-threatening diseases is sure a funny way of showing it.

CATEGORIZED UNDER: Alt-Med, Antiscience, Debunking
MORE ABOUT: antivax, Orac

Comments (96)

  1. And for a quick, one-stop resource to learn some of the basics of the anti-vaccine arguments, please visit antiantivax.flurf.net.

    Oh, and Science-Based Medicine’s Topic-Based Reference is quite extensive.

  2. Greg in Austin

    We have seen a large increase in the number of cases of pertussis (whooping cough) here in Central Texas. This is completely due to lack of vaccinations or boosters.

    http://www.goodhealth.com/articles/2010/02/17/whooping_cough_on_the_rise

    http://www.kvue.com/news/health/AustinTravis-County-health-officals-keep-a-close-eye-on-Whooping-Cough-outbreak-89050952.html

    8)

  3. Chris

    I think a lot of people view these diseases as a nasty flu or chickenpox. The kid may get sick but he’ll be better in a week. Autism is for a lifetime. We don’t have anything like polio which made parents so fearful they had their kids vaccinated in the testing trials even though they didn’t know if it would work. Could you imagine something like that happening today? Well I guess it kind of did, just the opposite way. People will continue to be controlled by the fear of “I know someone with autism” vs “Who get measles anymore?” Since autism doesn’t have a known cause, people will continue believing the old wives’ tales that vaccines are bad.

    Speaking of which, what did the V’s put in the vaccines?

  4. NewEnglandBob

    Keep doing THIS type of reporting, Thanks, Phil.

  5. Claudio

    I’m from Brazil and I am shocked to know that in the U.S. there are people who actully think that vaccines are bad. They are not perfect but it’s way better than the diseases they prevent. Can anyone imagine what would have happened in the 50′s and 60′s if there was no vaccine against smallpox?

  6. Zucchi

    What exactly is the goal of the anti-vax people? A world where no one is vaccinated? Do they have any earthly idea of the scale of epidemics we could see if that happened?

  7. Menyambal

    In support of Chris at #2:

    There’s an old Ma and Pa Kettle skit in which a young man says he fell off the bluff. “Wasn’t there a warning sign?” “There was, but people quit falling off so they figured they didn’t need the sign no more and took it down.”

    It ends, “That boy is wanderin’ in his mind.” “Don’t worry, he won’t get far.”

  8. @Zucchi

    What exactly is the goal of the anti-vax people? A world where no one is vaccinated? Do they have any earthly idea of the scale of epidemics we could see if that happened?

    Generally speaking, they tend to be parents of autistic children, and their focus is on their children. They view autism as far worse than anything any disease could do. They also tend to be of the opinion that as long as everyone else is vaccinating, why should it matter what they, individually, do, totally ignoring the fact that as more and more people take that attitude, the risk of diseases gaining a foothold increases. Another commonly held belief is that natural infection grants better immunity than vaccines. This is often coupled with the idea that since vaccines are not 100% effective, then they must not be effective at all. Therefore, the risks of injury far outweigh any possible benefit, since there is no benefit.

    So, in their minds, their goal is to fight autism by eliminating vaccines, or by making them “safer” (though they never clearly define what “safe” means for them). Nothing is as important as autism.

  9. kevbo

    “…their agenda of bringing back preventable diseases”?

    That’s a little harsh, I would think. I suspect that this is more of a deep-seated need to point the blame for personal tragedy at something – anything; and running around spewing this nonsense gives them a feeling that they are doing something about it.

    I doubt they are actually wanting a return of preventable diseases. That said, I wonder where they would next point their energies if they were ever successful in eliminating vaccination?

    (shudder)

  10. kevbo

    btw, there’s a new outbreak of measles in Vancouver…sigh:

    “Ten laboratory-confirmed and four suspect cases of measles were identified in the past two weeks, including an out-of-province visitor, the BCCDC said Tuesday in a news release. Eight of the 14 cases are associated with a single household with unvaccinated members.”

    http://www.canada.com/Measles+alert+issued+after+dozen+cases+diagnosed/2747596/story.html

  11. rob

    kevbo:

    well, if they eliminated vaccination, i suppose they would have to go after contraception cause child mortality would be so high.

  12. kevbo

    Hmm. If they eliminated fertilization instead, they could *guarantee* a drop in autism incidence…

  13. Wikinews has an interview about the H1N1 virus: As of March 26, 2010, 213 countries, territories, and other communities have laboratory-confirmed cases and there have been at least 16,931 confirmed deaths, including 4,653 deaths in Europe and 7,673 in the Americas. This is a large underestimation of total deaths with total figures unavailable.

  14. Pocket Nerd

    In b4 “STICK TO ASTRONOMY!!” whines.

    On a related note: I read this blog primarily for the astronomy, but I also enjoy your posts debunking antivax mummery… or pretty much anything else. Keep doin’ just what you’re doin’, Dr. Plait, because it is full of high-awesome win.

  15. Ad Hominid

    @ rob

    “well, if they eliminated vaccination, i suppose they would have to go after contraception cause child mortality would be so high.”

    A cruel but valid point, rob. The overwhelming grief of losing a child is fortunately rare today, but many people forget that it was commonplace within living memory. People who doubt the efficacy of vaccination and medical science need to spend some time looking around a well-preserved 19th century cemetery. A heartbreakingly high percentage of the graves are of young children. I have always thought that very high child mortality had a lot to do with the seeming grimness and melancholy of our not-too-distant ancestors. My grandmother, who is now 104 years old, has remarked that she was from the first generation of women who had a reasonable expectation that all of their children would survive childhood. She had four children herself. All of them are still alive. Her maternal grandmother, born in 1860, had 8 children, of whom only two survived to adulthood. It is something to ponder: What is that experience like? How has its declining frequency changed the world?

  16. Cairnos

    Oh, and a moment from last week I will never forget, at work we were filling out our vaccination consent forms and vaguely discussing vaccination in general. Some one mentioned smallpox and one of my younger co-workers said “What’s smallpox?” and a stunned silence fell.

    Epic win for medicine!

    Epic fail for NZs history classes :-(

  17. dragonet2

    Ad homonid, that is more than true.

    I felt luck to have survived most of the childhood diseases (mumps, rubella, chicken pox – 2x) without any apparent problems. My mother was probably grateful they had started giving polio vaccinations / oral vaccine before I was born, and the measles vaccine was already established too. I know people who have survived the bad side effects of those “childhood diseases” and those side effects suck. Polio comes back when you get old, it hides out in the nervous system and presents again… yikes.

    And I also question the statement that I keep hearing, “parents should not have to grieve their children’s death.” It is in the news, statements, etc. Yet children, until about the 1940s, had a fairly high mortality. Infection, ‘childhood diseases,’ other conditions and just a hard life made for about a 50% average survival rate.

    I wish I could figure out where that statement about parents not having to grieve about their children’s death comes from. I’ve tried on the Internets but have failed.

  18. Lucide

    @dragonet2

    I’m not sure but that statement could have a high probability of coming from the Chinese/Asian proverb of ‘White haired should not send the Black haired off’ – equivalent of the meaning, parents/grandparents and such should not grieve/mourn/attend the funeral of their offspring. In fact, its a custom/tradition since long ago not for living ancestors to attend a funeral of the young ones – it is deemed unlucky and might shorten the lifespan of the living ancestors. (I’m modern Chinese :) )

    and yay for the anti-anti-vax! My whole country’s vax-ed from birth usually – since the anti-vax movement would hold no ground here where the government considers its people as its only resource. Furthermore, epidemic on a small island country would be disastrous. In fact, most of us get anxious about whether or not to take a new vax when its issued. We would like to but most of us are skeptic about the newer ones and would wait for them to be tested before we go, but if its safe – I’d say most of us would. It’s like a standard to take an immunization jab before going overseas where there’s sickness.

    (Singapore)

  19. “Healthday has an alarming article about the San Diego 2008 measles outbreak which exposed over 800 people because one family decided not to vaccinate their kid. Yes, one family started an minor epidemic that cost over $170,000 to contain and nearly killed one infant. I hope antivaxxers are proud of that one.”

    Phil, you are a high-profile antivaxer, a high-profile sceptic, a voice of reason in the ignorant wilderness of the USA. Don’t you think it is CRIMINALLY NEGLIGENT if you don’t advocate mandatory vaccinations with the same enthusiasm with which you attack the anti-vaxers?

    And if you continue to ignore this issue, which is the only realistic way to bring the benefit of vaccination to all people, can you at least have the honesty to admit that your libertarian bias is what is holding you back?

  20. Lawrence

    @Phillip – we’ve had this conversation in the past & Phil pretty clearly spelled out his reasons for not advocating 100% mandatory vaccinations (you’d really think that in the 21st Century, people would be intelligent enough to know the benefits, but I also realize we can be a very stupid species).

    I personally have no problem mandating vaccinations for all those who can receive them (medically) – and strictly limiting the reasons for exemptions. But getting that passed in today’s climate – good luck.

  21. Could someone explain to me how unvaccinated people can give rise to epidemics? I’ve never understood how that works. (I don’t disbelieve it, I just don’t understand, and I’m sure I’m not the only one.)

  22. fred edison

    Those poor babies who were too young to be vaccinated, how horrible to think one or more might have died or suffered serious after-effects from a high fever. No thanks to that traveling family who thought their choice mattered to no one but themselves. They could not be more wrong.

    How these supposedly educated ‘natural born anti-vaxers’ are intellectually oblivious and blind to the real world benefits of vaccine related herd immunity is baffling. It’s clear that the protection against disease that it gives their children, AND how it protects other children they come in contact with, makes vaccination the only and right choice (unless physical conditions disallow).

    I wonder if they will finally switch on the light in their head and read the writing on the wall, or prefer to remain in dark denial with minds shut tight to the actual facts about positive vaccine benefits and safety. All we can do is to keep hammering them with common sense to displace the nonsense filling their anti-vax minds.

  23. “@Phillip – we’ve had this conversation in the past & Phil pretty clearly spelled out his reasons for not advocating 100% mandatory vaccinations”

    I remember him mentioning that he didn’t, which surprised me, but I don’t recall him spelling out the reasons. Do you have a link?

  24. Mark Hansen

    dragonet2, it may have come from the LotR movies. The exact line there is “No parent should have to bury their child.”

  25. Gary Ansorge

    19. Lucide

    Saw an article yesterday about a Chinese practice of ignoring dead children, for pretty much the same reason you mention. It was pointed out in that article that in the agrarian society, child death is so high that the only way people had to assuage their pain over those losses was to pretend the child never happened. In the comments section, there was a great deal of vociferous language criticizing China for being so heartless. It just goes to show that many Americans think we’re the only standard by which all people should organize their lives,,,we’re SO parochial.

    I have a friend who interprets for the deaf. She pointed out that business has declined over the last several decades because most cases of deafness in this country are caused by measles and vaccination has produced far fewer people so afflicted. I expect the very same people so concerned with autism would be horrified to have a child that was deaf, caused by a preventable disease.

    My great-great-grandmother had 8 children. Three lived long enough to reproduce and from the tin type I’ve seen of her she certainly didn’t seem a happy camper. Perhaps those losses were the principle reason she seemed so dour.

    Gary 7

  26. TheBlackCat

    I have a friend who interprets for the deaf. She pointed out that business has declined over the last several decades because most cases of deafness in this country are caused by measles and vaccination has produced far fewer people so afflicted.

    I would suspect that cochlear implants also had something to do with the drop. They were developed a few decades ago and have been steadily growing in both numbers and effectiveness since then.

  27. FoodMagick

    The ONLY way parents can safely NOT vaccinate their children is if they also feed those kids a preponderance of fresh fruits and non-starchy veggies, strictly limit or prevent intake of processed foods and animal proteins, and practice good food combining.

    If we all did that, no one would ever need vaccinations. We also would only need emergency medical care, the entire fitness/manufactured nutrition/vitamin and health supplement industries would be wholly unnecessary, and we would live with no illness or disease right up until the day we expired (which would also be much longer than 100 years).

  28. FoodMagick (#29): What you have said is complete and utter baloney. The kind of advice you are giving is exactly the kind of antivax garbage that is spreading illness and sickening our kids. Shame on you. Shame.

  29. FoodMagick

    30 Phil: I am not anti-vaccination; I am pro-health–TRUE health from the inside out–which is what we get if we eat as described. Shame on you for not knowing that.

  30. amphiox

    Phillip Helbig, it is a question of cost-benefit balance. Forcing everyone to vaccinate would certainly provide a public health benefit, but it also comes with a cost – the cost of accepting a society where it is permissible for any and all individuals to be compelled to undergo an invasive medical procedure against their will by government fiat.

    Does the benefit outweight the cost then? It is something of a value judgment, of course. Some would say, right out, no, the health benefit does not outweigh the restriction of individual freedom, and for them the debate is over.

    For others, it is not so clear-cut. It may seem that the health benefits accrued from a mandatory 100% vaccination rate can indeed outweigh the small limitation of personal freedom entailed by a carefully regulated program of mandatory vaccination. After all, there are jurisdictions that have mandated the use of seatbelts in cars, with criminal charges for noncompliance, and democracy has not come crashing down into dystopian dictatorship as a result. Vaccinations are more invasive than seatbelts, of course, but not enormously so.

    But then these people must consider and weigh in balance the alternative strategies – namely, voluntary mass vaccination with heavy government and social encouragement and aggressive educational campaigns. Such an alternative would not achieve a 100% vaccination rate, and so would have a lower public health benefit, but this alternative has NO cost in terms of individual freedom. Thus, is the NET benefit of this approach then superior to the NET benefit of the mandatory vaccination approach?

    If the answer is yes, and for me it is, then there is no need or reason to consider universal mandatory vaccination enforced with threat of criminal charnges.

    And therefore it is NOT, in any way, shape or form, hypocritical to advocate for vaccination and against the anti-vaxxers and at the same time not favor mandatory vaccinations.

    Indeed, for those among us who value personal freedom, it becomes even more imperative to speak out against the anti-vaxxers. Because if the anti-vaxxers win, and voluntary mass vaccination really starts to fail as a strategy as a result, then the justification for forced mandatory vaccination becomes ever more compelling, and ever harder to argue against. So it is in fact consistent for people like Phil who favor vaccination but oppose mandatory vaccination to be EVEN MORE VOCAL against anti-vaxxers than those who favor mandatory vaccination.

    The world, you see, is not black and white, but shades of grey, with sparkles of red, blue, green, ultraviolet, and infrared scattered in between.

  31. rob

    @food magick: an apple a day keeps ebola away.

  32. @FoodMagick

    If we all [ate healthy], no one would ever need vaccinations.

    It is April 1, so you might just be a Poe. But, on the off chance you’re serious, got some citations to back that claim up?

  33. Chris

    If FoodMagick is not an April’s Fool Day Poe, I want him/her to explain how vegies would have saved Dana McCaffery and Callie Van Tornhout.

  34. FoodMagick

    33 rob: Yeah, something like that ;)

    34 Todd — Here are just a few resource sites:

    drbassdotcom
    naturalhygienesocietydotorg
    orthopathydotnet
    soilandhealthdotorg
    drfuhrmandotcom
    hcawellnessdotcom
    healselfdotorgslashFood Combiningdothtml

    True health and immunity are a matter of choice. Eating too much processed foods and animal proteins, coupled with not eating enough fresh fruits and non-starchy veggies, is why we ever get sick in the first place–even when germs are the catalyst.

    When we eat in accordance with nature’s laws, we can heal ourselves and eliminate our susceptibility to future illness and disease.

    35 Chris: It’s terribly sad when little ones are taken so early, but this is where we are now. Generations of deficient eating are producing evermore weakened offspring… Teenagers are getting nasty health problems that usually strike in our 30s or later… Toddlers are having poop problems… There seem to be more and more frequent unusual birth defects… More and more kids are being born with terrible health problems instead of getting the luxury of earning them the hard way like we did, etc. Unfortunately the only way veggies could have helped those babies is if their parents had started eating better roughly 5 years before they conceived.

  35. ihateaphids

    I wish we lived in a world where people actually considered the effects of their decisions on everyone else (you know an actual society and such)…my solution would be for parents who declined to vaccinate children to be injected with every known vaccinatable disease! (kidding, of course, but it might make people think twice!)
    Or we could force unvaccinated children to sit in rooms with infected individuals to thin the susceptibles from the population?

    I only am advocating (un-seriously) such approaches because by not vaccinating their children, parents are potentially exposing other parents’ children to a reservoir of illness and endangering herd immunity.

  36. ihateaphids

    one excellent way to refute anit-vaccers is thus:
    Any academic who tested and discovered significant evidence for a vacc-autism link would immediately get a paper in Science or Nature, would likely get guaranteed tenure if the results held up to scrutiny, and be at heralded as one of the best discoverers of the century. There is no “big pharma” censure on basic research (if you think this you are silly), and if any research scientist actually believed there was a link between autism and vaccines they would do a study. And they have. And they find no link. If a scientist found a link his/her career would be made. It’s silly to think there is an academic bias against finding a link. Silly silly non-scientists.

  37. Cairnos

    @ FoodMagic

    First define ‘processed’. This word gets tossed around as much as ‘Big [thing you hate]‘

    “Eating too much processed foods and animal proteins, coupled with not eating enough fresh fruits and non-starchy veggies, is why we ever get sick in the first place–even when germs are the catalyst.”

    Germs are not the catalyst, they are the cause.

    “There seem to be more and more frequent unusual birth defects”

    No, it’s just that they tend to live and be noticed, in the past they just died and were listed as stillborn. See other previous comments about how infant mortality used to be a ‘shrug’ “Well sh*t happens” event.

    And as for the whole avoid animal protiens, would you care to explain why there are some vitamins that you can only get from animal sources if that is true? I believe (I haven’t checked so someone correct me if I’m wrong) that B12 is only found in animal products and a couple of remarkably rare plants. Strict vegans have to take supplements or risk neurological damage over the course of years.

    Having said that the average diet could indeed be improved with more fruit and veg and less meat and salt with obvious health benefits. However pretending that this will eliminate all sickness is just dumb.

  38. @Food Magick

    I guess I should have been more clear. By citations, I meant scientific studies published in high-quality, peer-reviewed journals, comparing the effects of nutrition in diseases prevention. If it includes comparison to vaccination, even better. The study should be controlled and, preferably, randomized and blinded.

    As a suggestion, perhaps a study showing that nutrition alone can prevent, say, infection with tetanus.

  39. Matt T

    So assuming that FoodMagick isn’t an April Fool’s joke (and, even then, there are many others like her/him)… shouldn’t these claims be easily demonstrated? Surely there’s at least one of these people that never received vaccinations, but claims mighty health by strict adherence to the Magick Food Diet, right…? So all they need to do is subject themselves to a faceful of H1N1/measles/bubonic plague/etc and laugh as we watch them continue to be perfectly healthy for the next month (and as we then apologize for doubting them). Right?

    That’s an actual, non-rhetorical question, by the way. Wouldn’t this be a simple demonstration of the truth of such claims? If not, why not? What am I failing to understand about their beliefs? And if so, why hasn’t it been done…? (OK, that one’s rhetorical.)

  40. Mike, SD&D

    A long sentence, perhaps.

    I’m thinking most so-called anti-vaxxers want the vaccination schedule *individualized* to their individual child’s condition with respect to risks of complication to vaccination, (which there are risks, or would we wish to debate that? and if not science then what, for as much?) and to be given the choice of going with what to innoculate/inject into “their” bodies (or would they be ours? and by what law?) of whatever schedule might better work more specifically for them and their situation (vs. being forced/abused? into their primordial jurisdiction/space, on another’s terms? so what would be theirs again?) of their constitutional right to understand and agree to as much (of at least being treated so respectfully, or how should they react? to invasion if not abuse? of what consequences they would have to bear with in that respect of taking a risk where a pre-existing condition is concerned, (and herd immunity would give us all some breathing room in that respect, of each other? that there would be if we wanted to be so honest? and considerate? of each other?) where the truth about vaccines and autism with respect to the individual, of justice, as the matter, cannot be considered done as far as science is really concerned with respect to science being about continuing the research to establish “greater” certainty (of fact, as wrong as science has been in the past, otherwise) as it applies to individuals and individual realities in that respect, where it would be science if not a more comprehensive science at all, of all, of the necessary facts to the qualities of life, other factors somewhat being treated as less relevent where justice and health for the individual is concerned, where we would be about as much, I mean, thereof, of, I can’t think of a better way of serving “justice” (individual justice, that there would be any other kind) in such an injustice world otherwise, where I realize me of this alone wouldn’t make it just enough

    Why not individualize the vaccination schedule where there are grounds for as much, and a safety margin for as much, might be the more meaningful question to be asking, rather than mischaracterizing anti-vaxxers and the issue, as I feel we too often do, with respect to eliciting the trust such an issue demands.

  41. Michael Glavic

    A long sentence, perhaps.

    I’m thinking most so-called anti-vaxxers want the vaccination schedule *individualized* to their individual child’s condition with respect to risks of complication to vaccination, (which there are risks, or would we wish to debate that? and if not science then what, for as much?) and to be given the choice of going with what to innoculate/inject into “their” bodies (or would they be ours? and by what law?) of whatever schedule might better work more specifically for them and their situation (vs. being forced/abused? into their primordial jurisdiction/space, on another’s terms? so what would be theirs again?) of their constitutional right to understand and agree to as much (of at least being treated so respectfully, or how should they react? to invasion if not abuse? of what consequences they would have to bear with in that respect of taking a risk where a pre-existing condition is concerned, (and herd immunity would give us all some breathing room in that respect, of each other? that there would be if we wanted to be so honest? and considerate? of each other?) where the truth about vaccines and autism with respect to the individual, of justice, as the matter, cannot be considered done as far as science is really concerned with respect to science being about continuing the research to establish “greater” certainty (of fact, as wrong as science has been in the past, otherwise) as it applies to individuals and individual realities in that respect, where it would be science if not a more comprehensive science at all, of all, of the necessary facts to the qualities of life, other factors somewhat being treated as less relevent where justice and health for the individual is concerned, where we would be about as much, I mean, thereof, of, I can’t think of a better way of serving “justice” (individual justice, that there would be any other kind) in such an unjust world otherwise, where I realize me of this alone wouldn’t make it just enough

    Why not individualize the vaccination schedule where there are grounds for as much, and a safety margin for as much, might be the more meaningful question to be asking, rather than mischaracterizing anti-vaxxers and the issue, as I feel we too often do, with respect to eliciting the trust such an issue demands.

  42. Cairnos

    A long sentence? Barely an english sentence. God I hope this is a Poe, even St Peter didn’t write this badly.

    For a start you have at least one unclosed parentheses in there, next you should really think about breaking up your points into well…points. But incoherency aside:

    Yes, there should be the ability to individualise the schedule where there are grounds for such, for instance allergies, damaged immune system, etc. And we can afford to do this only if the rest of us get vaccinated as standard to allow sufficient herd protection for those with specific individual needs. We’re in this for the species dude, it’s not all about ‘me’.

  43. Holly

    I am not anti-vaccine…but, I am PRO screening. IE, better metabolic screening at birth. My son seized after his two part flu shot. We had no idea that he had mitochondrial dysfunction..and unfortunately, the way we learned of it, was via his seizure and subsequent skill regression after the shot. There are simply some children who can’t handle every ingredient in every vaccine – much like there are some children who can’t handle getting stung by a bee. Why this is so hard to accept, I will never know. In the meantime, as more kids like mine “pop up,” I pray that there’s actually research being done that will help avoid more situations like ours.

  44. FoodMagick

    I guess my point was that we shouldn’t lump all natural hygiene followers in with a few who don’t do it right. That would be kinda like blaming all Catholics for the sins of those certain priests.

    There will always be people who try to take shortcuts, and unfortunately that can affect others in the vicinity. But really we could apply that description to myriad situations in the world today that have nothing at all to do with vaccinations. (How many times do people go to work sick and pass the crud around to others in the office??)

    The best thing we can do for ourselves (and our children) is learn how to eat more naturally–to adhere more closely to the diet we are designed to eat–thereby fortifying ourselves against all health problems.

    I wish I knew where there were some specific studies to point toward (give me some time to research per the various suggestions, if there are any to be found on the web), but if anyone checks out the articles and case studies on some of the sites I mentioned before, the fact that diet is all-important in the control, reversal, and prevention of all manner of illness and disease should become obvious.

    Also look into the written works of Dr. John Tilden, Dr. Herbert Shelton, or Dr. William Hay (some are available to read on the soilandhealth website), wherein they discuss their various clinical experiences using diet to heal patients of almost every imaginable disease, and how those patients went from being told they should get their affairs in order, to having complete vitality and totally clear health in a matter of months, and they stayed healthy and lived many years longer than expected. These consistently successful results led to the reasoning for shunning innoculation since diet alone could control health and susceptibility.

    It seems this anti-vax argument has been raging since just about the time they started vaccinating.

    I can only speak to my own experience with the healing power of eating correctly, but frankly it’s hard to talk about without sounding like I’m preaching (or selling something), because the changes so far have seemed pretty miraculous from my point of view. Plus it would make this more of a book than a comment (it’s long enough already!).

    I will say this… I don’t know how anyone could get a “faceful” of whatever germs (LOL), but I can honestly say that I don’t fear H1N1 or any other bug anymore. I also no longer fear old age, and that’s really saying something when one considers the extent of sudden, unexpected death as well as long, drawn-out, miserable death-by-disease that decorates my family tree.

    Time plus continued healthy, non-infectious state are the only evidence I will be able to give, for myself. Other evidence can be found by searching the web. There are case studies to be found for practically every illness, disorder, and disease known to man.

  45. Mark Hansen

    Cairnos, you ain’t seen nothin’ yet…

  46. FoodMagick

    Cairnos: If germs are really the cause, why doesn’t everyone get sick when some bug is going around? Why are some people more or less susceptible than others? Immunity? What makes one person’s immunity stonger or weaker than another’s?

    Part heredity, part genetics, but more than any other factor, it’s the food. It’s how we replenish and rebuild our bodies on a daily basis that determines our overall health and resistance to attack.

    Germs are around us everywhere, all the time. Only when we haven’t rebuilt and replenished our bodies with high quality nutrients for too long do we begin to suffer effects from any germs which take residence. (See myriad articles on sites mentioned earlier.)

    “Processed” means any food to which we have added chemicals or excessive heat, or which we have denatured in some other way (or, any food that doesn’t exist in that form in nature and/or has had its nutrients stripped away by something we have done to it before eating). When we eat these foods, we rob our bodies of the very things we are supposed to be getting from food.

    One of Dr. Hay’s books talks about an experiment where some rats were fed a diet of only processed foods, and some were fed nothing at all. Guess which ones lived longer?

    Amino acids are the main reason we should eat flesh from time to time, to get the 9(?) we don’t make ourselves; however, there are grains that contain those amino acids, so we can get them from those sources instead. Most people don’t eat enough of those to get what we need, however, which is why we need to supplement with meat.

    Also, as you acknowledge, vegans can go for years without eating animal protein before suffering any deficiency problem. This clearly shows that we don’t need it every day, and certainly not 3 servings of dairy PLUS 3 servings of meat PLUS 5 servings of grains.

    Looking to nature, every other omnivore on the planet eats a whole lot of plant material and very little flesh. Our teeth and digestive tracts more closely resemble those of herbivores than carnivores, and we also have enzymes in our saliva which begin the digestive process for carbohydrates; carnivore saliva does not contain these enzymes.

    We are designed to eat mostly plants, less animals.

    The clinical results reported by doctors in the last century are the same results reported by the many practitioners today: eating more fresh fruits and non-starchy vegetables and less meat, dairy, and grains nearly always brings about a reversal of current health problems and prevents future issues. No pretending possible there.

  47. Mark Hansen

    FoodMagick, have you considered testing your “germs only the catalyst, not the cause” “good nutrition will defend me” hypothesis with a rabid animal?

  48. Chris

    FoodMagick, I missed the citation that if the babies’ parents had eaten the diet you prescribed they would not have died from pertussis. All I see is argument from blatant assertion. This is not acceptable.

    Please provide proper citations. They must be from peer reviewed studies. Until you provide the science to back up your statements I will assume you are a totally clueless idiot who decided to fall back on the basically cruel “it is the parents’ fault” gambit.

    Do you know anything about basic cell biology? How bacteria work? Or the toxins produced by bacteria?

    Please show exactly what biologic processes will protect you from tetanospasmin and pertussis toxin. And remember that April Fools Day is over. No more preaching, jokes… just science.

  49. Argus

    FoodMagick: If water in the lungs causes death by drowning, why doesn’t everybody on a sinking ship die at exactly the same instant?

    Also, how do you reconcile your claims with Koch’s Postulates (especially the third one)?

  50. Michael Glavic

    English teachers may be more the problem than the solution? Where are the psychologists and people of science I have to wonder. My daughter (of tender years) also points out the same things with respect to my style, Cairnos, etc., in trying to correct me? (with what they understand? that I wouldn’t know) and I remind her, of her seeking career options, do you want to be an English teacher (or law enforcement officer?) or do you want to be a psychologist (and/or fellow of science?) in understanding them and serving them and getting along with them and she seemed to be silenced (briefly) just like you.. “Justice” is the issue, unless you want to be part of the problem of a system and society not to much of that, I Feel as Understand

    I “personally,” don’t need any more English teachers, (in paying the bills and coming up with the goods? if not the better language?) I don’t know about anyone else here, but I’m thinking this is really the wrong place for English teachers and that approach

    On calling you out for what you are? (to me? of doing the job? my job?) otherwise, and hopefully putting you on track by as much, as wrong (and abusive) as I feel you would be otherwise, (of what you seem to be prioritizing, instead) and sure, let that battle rage, in your mind, (as I feel it does!) ’cause, it isn’t in mine, (anymore) and where you would need help with that I be here for as much, Thereof.

    And where you censor me (beyond your insulting me as you do, I mean) as so many do, I merely identify you/them as the problem if not of what they actually stand for and represent, as propaganda, by as much (So don’t let this blog and Discover Mag stand for *progaganda* as it would otherwise, of it’s seemingly always changing the subject, (perhaps?) away from *Justice,* of Understanding More, that anything else should matter? .. . of the power and the glory, Thereof, that you should have gotten that far with It?

    I realize that identifying abuse and calling people abusive isn’t (so positive?) enough to prosecute justice (that anything else would be so meaningful? to Understanding More, as much as we can, of being about that) but I’m figuring it’s a great start

    No more correcting language *please,* that we need such abuse, from the more meaningful issue of understanding more for our selves, of Justice, Thereof, which you (we?) still haven’t addressed as far as I’m concerned by y/our response

    I’m not about winning a popularity contest, (of politics?) that I would only appeal to the lowest common denominator in what I say and do, but I suspect many of us are, (of our conditioning? of our science? of our problem?) and I’ll not stand for it any longer than I have to, where you can read me of as much, of what I’m about, Thereof

    I believe humanity needs to be taught a lesson in this respect of as much.

    But that would be just me.

    Self-described and describing. What I wish for all of Us that *we* would be in such control

    No, I don’t want my daughter (who is not so autistic, as my son?) to be an English teacher, but I still let her go where her heart takes her, of going so far myself.. .

    Best wishes, Thereof

  51. Everyone, Mr. Glavic showed up in a previous thread. He appears to suffer from word salad (but, IANAP). Several of us told him to get some help. It is probably best to just ignore his posts for now.

    @Food Magick

    Again…provide proper citations to support your claims. Argument by assertion will not work here.

  52. Michael Glavic

    Oh, oh, it’s the academic (of the political academia?) police, Todd trying to speak for the phenomena again

    Tch, Tch. I’m not thinking that’s so smart, but, at least we know how he feels, about those facts? that any other should matter? Seems you’re quite the authoirty around here, “Todd,” that we’d be needing authority, over The reason, of God? (God of as much? where you can do the analysis for your self? or maybe where the English language is easier to police and get your plum of as much? as shallow as that is?

    Why is the Discover Mag blog on to science not so much for “justice” (for the individual, that it would be justice, weird educated people otherwise? of a buffet, perhaps?) speaks of its injustice and abuse and immorality (and lack of objectivity) as far as I’m concerned. That should be enough of a sentence in your language to figure at least that much out I’m thinking, of my hope for you, of Us, where our feelings would be concerned, of Understanding More, but how and what else is not so much a question for me alone (as nice a being as alone as I am really is.. .

    Oh, yeah. Why would I want to be, stupid?!. (Confused) I don’t.. . So I’m feeling you should wise up Todd, and others, by helping where I can in that respect, like It or not

    Mike Glavic

  53. Michael Glavic

    Oh, oh, it’s the academic (of the political academia?) police, Todd trying to speak for the phenomena again, is my sense of It

    Tch, Tch. I’m not thinking that’s so smart, but, at least we know how he feels, about those facts? that any others should matter? Seems you’re quite the authority around here, “Todd,” that we’d be needing authority, over reason, The reason, of God? (God of as much? where you can do The analysis for your self? or maybe where the English language is easier to police and get your plum of as much? as shallow as that is?

    Why is the Discover Mag blog on to science not so much for “justice” (for the individual, that it would be justice, weird educated people otherwise? of a buffet, perhaps) speaks of its injustice and abuse and immorality (and lack of objectivity, of sensitivity?) as far as I’m concerned

    That should be enough of a sentence in your language to figure at least that much out I’m thinking, of my hope for you, of Us, where our feeling/s would be concerned, of Understanding More, but how and what else is not so much a question for me alone (as nice as being as alone as I really am is? .. .

    Oh, yeah. Why would I want to be, stupid?!. (Confused) I don’t.. . So, I’m feeling you should wise up Todd, and others, by my helping where I can in that respect, like It or not

    Mike Glavic

    Evolved version, of how that works, of The phenomena, Thereof. Just add to It (in a more complementary way? for as much?) for more of as much I would recommend for Us, Thereof. Not a contest (No (Of my being able to judge that for my self, Thereof

    Best wishes in that respect, of The “phenomena,” where it might not be language to you, otherwise.. .

  54. Mark Hansen

    John (way back at #22),
    Sorry for not seeing your post there; you wished to know how unvaccinated people can give rise to epidemics, including amongst vaccinated people I assume. The reason it happens is that no vaccination is 100% effective. As more and more amongst a population can not or will not be vaccinated, the herd immunity drops. Herd immunity is what helps out those who cannot be vaccinated or whose vaccination doesn’t work, for whatever reason. Unvaccinated people and those whose vaccination doesn’t work can bring into their community (through travel, for example) the diseases that have been vaccinated against.

  55. Chris

    John, another thing to consider is that families that have bought the whole anti-vax rhetoric tend to gather together. So if a child who goes to a school where many parents do not vaccinate their children goes on a vacation where a disease is endemic and gets sick. He then spreads the disease to others in his/her school. This is what happened in San Diego. Also, that same child was taken to the doctor where he infected at least two babies with measles who were too young to get the vaccine (one of those babies ended up in the hospital with a high fever and severely dehydrated. You can listen to that story on the Dec. 19th, 2008 edition of NPR’s “American Life” show titled “Ruining It For the Rest of Us.”

    To also help you understand, here is some herd immunity arithmetic:

    Take 1000 people (ignoring the infants under 2 months who cannot be vaccinated, or babies under a year who can only be partially vaccinated), if 5% refuse vaccines then the numbers are:

    950 vaccinated persons (assuming full schedule)
    50 unvaccinated persons

    The pertussis vaccine is actually only 80% effective at worse, so the numbers are:

    760 protected persons
    190 vaccinated but vulnerable persons
    50 unvaccinated persons

    There is an outbreak and it gets spread to 20% of the population, then:

    760 protected persons without pertussis

    38 vaccinated persons get pertussis
    152 vaccinated person who may still get pertussis

    10 unvaccinated persons get pertussis
    40 unvaccinated persons who may still get pertussis.

    This is how more vaccinated persons get the disease than unvaccinated. Even if the infection rate was at 100%, there would still be more of the vaccinated getting the diseases because there are more of them!

  56. FoodMagick

    Argus: From Wikipedia… “The third postulate specifies ‘should’, not ‘must’, because as Koch himself proved in regard to both tuberculosis and cholera, NOT ALL ORGANISMS EXPOSED TO AN INFECTIOUS AGENT WILL ACQUIRE THE INFECTION. Noninfection may be due to such factors as general health and proper immune functioning; acquired immunity from previous exposure or vaccination; or genetic immunity, as with the resistance to malaria conferred by possessing at least one sickle cell allele.”

    Notice the first reasons listed for non-infection: general health and proper immune functioning. If our immune system is functioning properly, we are natually resistant to infection.

    It might interest anyone who doesn’t already know… the government has a program set up for the litigation and payout of damages to persons who have suffered injury or death from vaccines, called the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP). The government has compensated 2,428 claims since 1989, totalling $1.84 billion. This is paid for with OUR TAX DOLLARS. hrsadotgovslashvaccinecompensation (check out the statistics… looks like we’re due for another uptick in cases, maybe by 2015)

    The flu vaccine was added to the actionable list in 2005.

    Here’s some interesting reading — Testimony from a medical doctor given to the Chairman of the Health Committee, Ohio House of Representatives 3/1/99 (whaledottoslashmslashincaodothtml). Some highlights:

    “1. In 1994 a special committee of the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences published a comprehensive review of vaccine safety which had been commissioned by federal law. Of five possible and plausible adverse effects of the hepatitis B vaccination which the committee investigated, they were unable to come to any conclusion for four of them because they found to their dismay that the relevant research had not been done!

    2. In contrast to the lack of research on the adverse effects of hepatitis B vaccination found by the Institute of Medicine, the National Vaccine Information Center in its recent special report on hepatitis B vaccination sites 38 reports in the international medical literature, some dating back to 1987, that hepatitis B vaccination is causing chronic autoimmune and neurological disease in children and adults.

    4. Since July 1990, 17,497 cases of hospitalizations, injuries and deaths in America following hepatitis B vaccination have been reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) of the U.S. government. This figure includes 146 deaths in individuals after receiving only hepatitis B vaccine without any other vaccines, including 73 deaths in children under 14 years old.

    In 1996 alone there were 872 serious adverse events in children under 14 years old reported to VAERS. 658 of those injuries were following hepatitis B vaccination in combination with other vaccinations and 214 of these injuries were after hepatitis B vaccination alone. In these children under 14 years old, there were 35 deaths after hepatitis B vaccination in combination and 13 deaths after hepatitis B vaccination alone, for a total of 48 deaths. Compare these statistics with the total number of hepatitis B cases nationwide reported that same year (1996) in children under 14, just 279, and the conclusion is obvious that the risks of hepatitis B vaccination far outweigh its benefits.

    5. The best way to determine the risk-benefit profile of any vaccination is well known and in theory is quite simple: Take a group of vaccinated children and compare them with a matched group of unvaccinated children. If the groups are well-matched and large enough and the length of time the children are observed following vaccination long enough, then such a study is deemed the “gold standard” of vaccine research because its data is as accurate a reflection as medical research is capable of achieving of how vaccinations are actually affecting our nation’s children.

    Incredible as it sounds, such a common-sense controlled study comparing vaccinated to unvaccinated children has never been done in America for any vaccination.

    This means that mass vaccination is essentially a large-scale experiment on our nation’s children.

    Three controlled studies comparing vaccinated to unvaccinated children in England and New Zealand have shown that the vaccinated children have significantly more asthma, ear infections, hospitalizations and inflammatory bowel disease than their unvaccinated cohorts.

    Since vaccinations have a lasting effect on the immune system, and since it is known that many vaccines shift the balance of the immune system away from its acutely-reacting “Th1″ side and toward its chronically-reacting “Th2″ side , it is a very plausible scenario that vaccines are contributing greatly to the large-scale and unprecedented increase in chronic conditions such as allergies, asthma, diabetes and a wide range of neurological dysfunctions including learning disabilities, attention deficit disorder, seizures and autism in U.S. children today.

    When the Institute of Medicine published its Federally mandated reports on vaccine safety in 1991 and 1994, their disturbing conclusion was that there is very little data on vaccine safety because the necessary research is simply not being done.

    8. My final comments are drawn from my 27 years of experience as a general practitioner of medicine. Twenty-three of those years were in a rural farming community in upstate New York where as many as 50% of my pediatric patients were unvaccinated due to their parents’ conscientious personal choice.

    When I started my practice I believed, as I had been taught in medical school, that the benefits of vaccinations outweighed the risks. I also believed that the right of parental choice in vaccinations ought to be respected.

    For 23 years I had the opportunity to observe my young patients grow from infancy to young adulthood and to appraise their overall health and vitality. It was out of this experience that my present views took shape. I observed that my unvaccinated children were healthier, hardier and more robust than their vaccinated peers. Allergies, asthma and pallor and behavioral and attentional disturbances were clearly more common in my young patients who were vaccinated.

    My unvaccinated patients, on the other hand, did not suffer from infectious diseases with any greater frequency or severity than their vaccinated peers: their immune systems generally handled these challenges very well.”

    *************
    Might not be peer-reviewed, double-blind, etc. but it seems pretty compelling. Surely it’s not just this one doctor who can report the same. In fact, there’s plenty more compelling reading from other MDs at vaccinetruthdotorgslashdoctors_against_vaccinesdothtm

    Are all these doctors just crazy?

  57. @Food Magick

    And you’ve invoked Scopie’s Law.

    Rather than addressing your post point by point, I’ll just recommend that you visit antiantivax.flurf.net and do some reading. In particular, take a look at the information about VAERS. I suggest following the links in the text, as well.

    I also recommend you bone up on research ethics. Part of your quote included this:

    Incredible as it sounds, such a common-sense controlled study comparing vaccinated to unvaccinated children has never been done in America for any vaccination.

    Visit the Department of Health and Human Services’ Office for Human Research Protections web site (a link is included in the resources section of antiantivax) and read The Belmont Report, as well as the other ethics information there. A randomized, controlled study of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated is unethical and would not be approved by an institutional review board. This issue has been addressed numerous times here, at Respectful Insolence and at Science-Based Medicine, among many other places.

    I find it telling, though, that you still have not given us any evidence to support your claims.

  58. Chris

    Yes, I am very disappointed and disgusted at the lack of evidence that what the parents’ ate has any bearing on the chances of a newborn baby surviving pertussis.

    Just as I am dismayed at the National Vaccine Information Center’s lack of recent data on pertussis. Their page on pertussis (which is still labeled “whooping cough”) makes claims of events that happened in the 1990s, yet the most recent reference in the bibliography is from the 1980s. There is no recent research, especially since the present vaccine is DTaP (which has shown to prevent SIDS).

    Food Magick, you really need to try harder. For one thing you might try educating yourself in basic biology, and actually try to learn how to interpret information on the Internet.

  59. Michael Glavic

    Good job Foodmagick (message #59) where other studies (validated of what? What peers?) are compromised with regard to their relationship to the political state challenging as much, (of policy? if not worse) I’d say.. .

    Where individuals are ruining it for the rest of us in doing what’s best for themselves (as otherwise of a group, for as much?) I would say that’s the group’s problem, as *I’m* saying here to any group of as much.. (Put up your intellectual dukes? where you have them, of as much? of said merits?) What are you going to do about it if we fight for ourselves? Thereof? Defer to abusive methods as you usually do if not further do, (of intimidation, lying, censorship, omission) I would speculate of what you do of your being about as much if not more of as much as you are, as I Feel you are, more than you should be, of carrying on a more intelligent discourse

    Correcting/trying to correct my language (any language) is like, oh, so, *unintelligent?* (if not worse) as far as I’m concerned, and I’m about the justice of understanding more for what’s best for the individual of individualizing things (that anything could be more fair, and just? and objective? of as much) that cost or anything else should matter, over such ethics, priority and value/s (?) says more about you than me as far as what you seem to be concerned about, otherwise, *whatever* of your not so much being for this, of telling folks to ignore me of as much? Ignore me for Intelligence, you may as well be saying as far as I’m concerned, of your basis in the official if not the official language, of as much?

    I’m aware of what the “official” is from what history has taught me in that respect.. .

    Uphold speech of reason by reinforcing it or deal with the consequences otherwise, of the power of reason, Thereof, vs. the power of authority otherwise, where I’m saying I feel I have more than “any authority otherwise,” (!) be sure, (of being able to do the analysis so far for your self?) of as much, of the “primary” evidence, (if not of the Primary authority) Thereof (where I Feel you haven’t made it anywhere nearly that far with understanding things, of Everything, Thereof, (bite me, Einstein?) of what I do, of what I’m challenging that you’re not really about, (somewhat by example if not object lesson) so much.. . as by Definition of Understanding, of Course, that you could make so much sense I mean of as much, of The phenomena, where I’m feeling It should have something to say of the Primary facts, as It does, whether you like It or not? .. .

    On The phenomena, where it isn’t so much a language to you, of whatever the hell you’re about otherwise, that I should care about that

    I go with *faith,* Thereof, of the “Primary” facts, as I like to call them, of The “results” I get from as much.. . (I don’t “need” your understanding, otherwise, for as much, Todd, and Chris, and whoever

    Others, please? .. . I want to hear from others in this respect of as much, so feel free to go beyond Todd and Chris in that respect, of, they’re also providing you that opportunity, to do as much, where they are, and I would say that especially says a lot for “them,” of the Primary things, Thereof.. .

    Others please?

    Not so much corrected/checked for lesser mistakes to the greater perfection/value of as much, is my sense of my form of expression and what I get and provide by as much, for as much, of Communication. (Or, I probably wouldn’t be communicating?!. Is my sense of It, of what I Feel, Thereof

    Best wishes in that respect, where the more intelligent choice of choice itself is y/ours, Thereof, I Feel as Understand.

    Where nothing is more fair and ethical and just than the pursuit of justness for the individual, that anything else would be so meaningful, to Understanding, of The feeling/s (which means that *everything else* and/or less is relatively *abusive* (including science) where you can do the analysis for your self.. .

    I Feel I’ve made that simple enough even for human beings to understand. (This sort of thing just keeps going.. . where you’re doing It? .. . But I’ll break now for your sake

    Leader of my world. And what I hope for you of yours.. . (of self-control, Thereof

    Of Understanding More.

  60. Cairnos

    @ 47 Mark Hanson:

    Oh God, you were serious.

  61. Chris

    Somewhere that word salad is being mined for a report in a psych class.

  62. Mark Hansen

    Cairnos @ 63
    This is one instance where I wished that I was wrong. The thing is, he can, when he wishes to, express himself clearly.

  63. “Phillip Helbig, it is a question of cost-benefit balance. Forcing everyone to vaccinate would certainly provide a public health benefit, but it also comes with a cost – the cost of accepting a society where it is permissible for any and all individuals to be compelled to undergo an invasive medical procedure against their will by government fiat.

    Does the benefit outweight the cost then? It is something of a value judgment, of course. Some would say, right out, no, the health benefit does not outweigh the restriction of individual freedom, and for them the debate is over.”

    Let me get this straight: some people actually believe that personal freedom is more important than saving innocent children from death? Confirms my suspicion that libertarianism = lack of all moral responsibility.

  64. Dave

    Dear Mr. FoodMagik

    “Might not be peer-reviewed, double-blind, etc. but it seems pretty compelling. Surely it’s not just this one doctor who can report the same. In fact, there’s plenty more compelling reading from other MDs at vaccinetruthdotorgslashdoctors_against_vaccinesdothtm
    Are all these doctors just crazy?”

    Ah, Yup. Most of them are not actually doctors but naturopaths with “medical training” acquired by mail order. There are a few G.P’s with a basic undergraduate education but without anywhere near the expertise to properly evaluate either the evidence or the science. I can’t do this analysis myself, but I don’t need to because I can look at the vast preponderance of true expert opinion and be guided by that. Your entire argument assumes a conspiracy of idiocy involving every major teaching hospital, health department, research institution and specialist researcher on the planet.

    Your true AntiVaxx colours are showing here mate. A real, live medical doctor giving evidence to the Ohio state legislature ? WOW – what compelling evidence. No referencing, citations or anything resembling “peer-reviewed, double blind” watchmacallums but who needs those smart alecks who actually decide things based on research when half an hour at Google U can give you just as much expertise ?

    As to your “food can cure anything” hypothesis – umm, well “bollocks” is the only response I can come up with. Sorry it is not more erudite. For the majority of human history we have lived a subsistence lifestyle – eating whole food, grown straight from the soil by our own labour with very little saturated fat and almost no processing. A pretty good diet, in fact.

    Throughout that whole time we were at the mercy of an endless number of plagues, infections and illnesses that killed the majority of our children and led to a life expectancy in the thirties.

    You want to live a long an healthy life ? Eat right, exercise and be fortunate enough to live in a wealthy western society with good sanitation and the majority of communicable diseases controlled through vaccination. If you choose to spend the fruits of this incredible good fortune reading nonsense on the internet – please keep it to yourself.

  65. Michael Glavic

    Hi Phil, and others, of All

    You’re getting there, Phil, (! ) of message #66, except your saying as much as you do makes you more of a *libertarian* (despite how you might prefer to deny that, for what that’s worth? to you not so, fill in the blanks? Leader of such faith?) of the high ground (higher morality, ground? Thereof? including of The evidence, of Communication, Thereof) and not so much a socialist otherwise (that would compromise as much, of ulterior motives? perhaps?) How’s that for giving you *y/our* world.. . your more *meaningful* world, I mean.. . As if anyone came up with anything good (that good?) without folks like me (Us?!. of as much)(Let’s be getting *that* straight, if not All, of that, straight, shall we?

    Not a real question, perhaps, unless you should take It so, seriously (Which I don’t feel you do, so far.. .

    Michael Glavic

    Leader of my world. What I wish for you/Us, Thereof.. . that you could do about anything so meaningful, otherwise? .. .

    Best Whatever Thereof (That also *empowers* me, of my own form of expression.. of being such, an individual, of as much.. (of, think, something “bigger,” and smaller, of as much? .. . of Feeling as Understanding. [That is never concluded, of being of as much?!. Hello] You might want to work on that (The *real* Connection, I’m saying of saying, of as much, where you would want to *live* so much? .. . of Understanding More, Whatever.

    My sense of It.. Have a nice day, where, The meaning is on *me,* of as much, (of such Objectivity?) of Course, of such course, of that thread if not The thread? of science? unless you or someone else can do as much and/or do better, of as much, of what I sense and feel, Thereof? .. . (That *science* would/could be worth a sh*t [so much?] otherwise.. .

    Yes, you could say I *Feel* (“F” Descartes? Therefore I Am?!.) I’m developing our Sense/s and Feeling/s, of *Communication*.. [Libertarianism, even, if not Especially?] that we could amount to so much, otherwise.. .

    Giving It, to someone (if not every one..) who could understand It, of as much, if not you, of as much, of my being about as much.. of my not only deferring to the lowest common denominator of, fill in the blanks? of filling in the blanks, if you Will, as Feel, Thereof, of Understanding More! (and, of how *that’s* done?!. Would be my sense of It, of The “connection”.. . of the connection that matters so much, as you shall see for your self

    Good-day people, in that respect of my moral position, and Whatever, of as much.. .

    I’m more than hoping that we would be more *individualizing* of the vaccine schedule (and everything else, actually, of which way I’d like to see us if not science going) and in our treatment of abuse/punishment/reinforcement, for individuals, for individual justness, Thereof, that there would be any other kind of justness, of Understanding More (of such world?) that anything but an Individual could understand as much, (of what defines an Individual? of such analysis? of such world) of what defines an individual and everything else so meaningful, I mean, for those who can or would try to come close to understanding as much, I mean, of as much, Thereof, not knocking you otherwise, (so much) but wishing as much for you of Us, Thereof

    Rarely do I find I have to get more punishing than that.. . (Where that would be punishing at All..

    Thanks for openning up to such objectivity, where you do.

  66. FoodMagick

    I have pointed you to many sites run by medical doctors (not naturopaths) who help their patients heal themselves with food. Dr. Montgomery (hcawellness) is a cardiac surgeon in Houston who prescribes a vegan diet to reverse disease in his patients. Dr. Fuhrman is a family practitioner who helps his patients reverse and prevent disease with food, and he’s written several books on the subject (including one called “Disease-Proof Your Child”). Drs. Tilden and Hay, whose books are available to read online for free anytime, were medical doctors whose patients also somehow managed to reverse their diseases with food. Their books detail more of the science behind it than you could ever want to learn–including how eating correctly before and during pregnancy prevents weakened offspring–and they also give step-by-step instructions for exactly how to eat to heal whatever ails us right now as well as prevent future illness and disease.

    Try reading them for yourselves.

  67. @Food Magick

    You said:

    The ONLY way parents can safely NOT vaccinate their children is if they also feed those kids a preponderance of fresh fruits and non-starchy veggies, strictly limit or prevent intake of processed foods and animal proteins, and practice good food combining.

    If we all did that, no one would ever need vaccinations.

    It’s that “eating healthy means we wouldn’t need vaccinations” bit that I’ve been focusing on. You seem to be familiar with the sites you recommended, so you should be able to find and post some peer reviewed research cited on those sites that back up this claim. You have yet to do so. You made the claim, you need to provide the evidence, rather than sending us off to search around for what may not be there.

    And a tip: a book is not peer-reviewed research. They might cite some research, but they are not, themselves, research. Sylvia Brown and Deepak Chopra have written lots of books, but that doesn’t mean that their claims are valid. Also, web sites are not peer-reviewed research. Give us articles published in respected, high-quality, peer-reviewed journals that support your contention that eating healthy would prevent infection by vaccine-preventable diseases.

    We’ll start with that, then address another glaring problem for your proposal.

  68. Chris

    Food Magick, you have still not answered how the parents’ diet would protect newborn babies from pertussis. Post the actual peer reviewed research including the journal, title, date and authors that shows the diet you propose would eliminate the need for vaccines, not suggestions of books to read.

    An example of a viable form of evidence is:
    J Natl Cancer Inst. 2010 Apr 6. [Epub ahead of print]
    Fruit and Vegetable Intake and Overall Cancer Risk in the European Prospective Investigation Into Cancer and Nutrition (EPIC).

    Boffetta P, Couto E, Wichmann J, Ferrari P, Trichopoulos D, Bueno-de-Mesquita HB, van Duijnhoven FJ, Büchner FL, Key T, Boeing H, Nöthlings U, Linseisen J, Gonzalez CA, Overvad K, Nielsen MR, Tjønneland A, Olsen A, Clavel-Chapelon F, Boutron-Ruault MC, Morois S, Lagiou P, Naska A, Benetou V, Kaaks R, Rohrmann S, Panico S, Sieri S, Vineis P, Palli D, van Gils CH, Peeters PH, Lund E, Brustad M, Engeset D, Huerta JM, Rodríguez L, Sánchez MJ, Dorronsoro M, Barricarte A, Hallmans G, Johansson I, Manjer J, Sonestedt E, Allen NE, Bingham S, Khaw KT, Slimani N, Jenab M, Mouw T, Norat T, Riboli E, Trichopoulou A.

    PMID: 20371762

    (You’ll find a discussion of that paper at Orac’s Respectful Insolence blog at ScienceBlogs)

    So either put up the evidence, or apologize for this disgusting evidence free comment “Unfortunately the only way veggies could have helped those babies is if their parents had started eating better roughly 5 years before they conceived.” Especially since one pair of parents tried for five years to have the daughter that was killed by pertussis.

    (by the way, babies have died when the mother had a vegan diet, and then put the baby on a vegan diet, see the WhatsTheHarm dot net section on Child Vegetarianism)

  69. Michael Glavic

    I doubt FoodMagick will be apologizing for doing his best, (my guess) and a fine job it is, much like most of ours, I’d say (with what we’ve got for what we get? Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha?) Heck, the Vatican is merely apologizing for serious “serious” sexual crimes of abuse against children no less (leaving much of history and collaborations with political and military and terrorist organizations out of it?!. Oh, yeah) of a serious “serious” breach of faith and whatever and for that it is mostly only “apologizing,” as where caught! no less (The sh*t-pail that it is, of such socialist/political slime? or perhaps that would the state for not doing its job, where justice is concerned? Take you pick? where not both? where you’re such a leader in that respect? .. .) I’d say, there’s a *lot* more to be apologizing for (and more than just apologizing for) in the world than what FoodMagick believes and says, don’t you think so, Chris?

    To forgive is to “sin,” to forgive “before” its time, and especially where it isn’t for you (the sinner?) to be forgiving, I’d say

    Someone is just not doing their job is my sense of It, and I’m not talking about “us” so much, that we are paid for that? It’s not really that funny. No. Not funny at all.

    Good-day (night, here, where I’m at) ladies and gentlemen, and All

  70. Michael Glavic

    I doubt FoodMagick will be apologizing for doing his best, (my guess, of what could be more meaningful than “communicating,” of our feeling/s? for what that’s worth and for what we could do about as much, by as much? .. .) and a fine job it is, much like most of ours, I’d say (with what we’ve got for what we get? Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha?) Heck, the Vatican is merely apologizing for serious,
    “serious” sexual crimes of abuse against children no less of a serious, “serious” breach of faith and
    whatever and for that it is mostly only “apologizing,” as where caught! no less
    (The, “whatever?” that it is? of such socialist/political, stuff? or perhaps that
    would be the “state,” [*of* the state? of a state, Thereof?] for not doing its job, where *justice* (what’s for the Individual? what’s best/most meaningful for the Individual?) is concerned? Take your pick? where not picking both? where you’re such a leader in that respect? of being able to do the analyis for your self, of our selves of as much? and proving as much?) I’d say, there’s a *lot* more to be apologizing for (and more than just apologizing for, of such degrees, where degrees should matter?) in the world than what FoodMagick believes and says, don’t you think so, Chris?

    To forgive is to “sin,” to forgive “before” its time, and especially where it
    isn’t for you (the sinner?) to be forgiving, I’d say

    Somebody is just not doing their job is my sense of It.. and I’m not talking
    about “us” so much, that we are paid for that? It’s not really that funny. No.
    Not funny at all (and I’m not just talking about our shallow/inadequate language, otherwise, no

    Good-day (night, here, where I’m at) ladies and gentlemen, and All

    —–

    Cleaned-up (evolved) version.. (On how Communication works?!. Where It works at All) Sorry where either one is found “offensive,” to you (to you, otherwise? but what otherwise?) That doesn’t mean I’ve “forgiven” anyone on that matter before its “time,” no, not at all, “never” before its time (as good as I can do that if not never?!.) despite what I may say in torture, that that would be fair? .. . (just, of Justice, “Whatever”

    On “Justness.” On how *that’s* done.. (I Feel as Understand.. . (Thereof! (and I Feel I have The goods to prove It.. . (Them, There? Of .. . for those who would understand, that I should care about those who wouldn’t, or don’t? .. . I’d care if I were *you* (*I* won’t be forgiving any time soon, otherwise, and that’s just little ol’ me.. .

    I’ll be leaving you alone for now, as alone as that *really* is where you get It, which I believe you *have,* gotten It, also thanks to me if not Especially thanks to me, Whatever

    I don’t expect anyone will *like* me for saying as much as I do.. I’ve *never* found that to be, (Really ) with Us, so far.. . You don’t *have* to like It, as you Go.. .

    Do The Math For Your Self? Best wishes, Thereof

    I Feel you’ve been Served, so far

  71. FoodMagick

    When a pharmaceutical company grows big enough balls to conduct and publish standardized research which challenges their own existence, I will be happy to show it to you.

    If I had that kind of time and money, I would fund it myself. Until then, proof can be found in the 150+ years of successful reversal of all manner of disease in millions of people, and in the consistent observations of these results by myriad doctors of various specialties.

    And for the record, I am NOT antivax. We must absolutely be vaccinated if we are going to eat the “Standard American Diet,” for it is eating that way (incorrectly) which makes us susceptible to illness and disease in the first place.

    That’s what those doctors’ books–which are based on years of their own and their peers’ clinical results–will tell you. Five-a-day doesn’t do squat for us when it’s up against 11 of everything else (and certainly not if any of those 5 are starchy!); the correct ratio for full healing benefit is 4:1 or better.

    That’s 4 or more servings of fresh fruits and non-starchy veggies for every single serving of anything else each day. Not completely vegan or even vegetarian, but mostly… (Vegans and Veggies have to take special care to get the amino acids the rest of us get from meat. The whatstheharm article clearly states the same thing I’ve said before: some people don’t do it right, and unfortunately harm can come to others as a result.)

    The human body is naturally immune to nearly everything as long as we keep our internal environment in the right condition. Eating at anything less than 4:1 for too long reduces our internal alkalinity, which in turn creates fertile grounds for germs, bacteria, virii, etc. to flourish.

    Since eating correctly (4:1) reverses disease, then it stands to reason that whatever cures also prevents. It also stands to reason that if simply eating correctly can reverse disease, then eating incorrectly must have caused it. Otherwise, how could simply eating better do any good?? Now, if you just want to argue about whether eating correctly reverses disease or not, I will again refer you to the many doctors’ clinical results which consistently prove that it does.

    To address the 5-year veggie comment, I was asked to explain how veggies could have helped those babies. I was NOT blaming the parents. It’s not their fault they weren’t taught how to eat correctly. If they had known to eat at 4:1 for the five years prior to conception and they didn’t do it, then and only then would it have been their fault.

    Had they eaten at 4:1 for 5 years prior to conception, then they would have rebuilt their own bodies to a more perfect state of health and immunity in that time, thereby passing along a greater level of immunity to their offspring at conception. Starting immunity is further impacted by the mother’s diet during pregnancy, since it is her diet alone that nurtures the fetus during gestation.

  72. Chris

    Where is the actual evidence for your contention?

    All I see is you saying such and such would happen, with absolutely no evidence. Why do you think us asking for evidence is an open invitation to post your rambling assertions? That is not proper documentation. Do you have some kind of learning disability that impairs your understanding of the standards of evidence?

    Please show us the actual scientific data and studies that support your opinion. Show us exactly that pertussis in infants is prevented through diet. Link to the PubMed articles.

    In short, you have failed. We cannot take you seriously. Until you provide real scientific evidence (not your own ramblings) you are just another nut ball sitting in the corner muttering to yourself.

  73. Michael Glavic

    Chris “seems” to be speaking from the strength of the regime otherwise, otherwise of Communication? (of the more direct democracy where it be democracy at All?) or he would have been more understanding if not civil if not nurturing of what you’re trying to do FoodMagick? I Feel as Understand.. He takes what opposes you, Us? (as Individuals first? of the primary facts, of our Feeling/s/Understanding, of Justness, Thereof, where he could do the analysis so far, of what is Primary?) perhaps, as what’s legitimate, as a given, (of social studies?!.) as if there is no conflict there with that.. I would consider helping those more appreciative and worthy of help if I were you, of the primary things, Thereof, as shallow (and worthless) as this blog seems to be, to me, otherwise

    I respect those who pick their death more wisely than Chris and his state (of the stupidity/confusion of our lives belong to the state, of their BS? Thereof? Laws of such, incongruity?!.) There is nothing to fear, only to be understood, from the person (one M. Curie) who they say died of “radiation exposure,” believe what you will? .. . Me feels she died for the right, Reason, of Authority, Thereof (that we would even need an authority, us Individuals, Otherwise? .. .

    I appreciate your representing yourself FoodMagick. I suspect Chris and others here have their conflict with as much..

    Science and the “US” authority (of political authority?) *doesn’t represent me* (particularly? particularly well.. of what more than just the vaccine issue is about, I’d say, of what’s wrong with the state, as it is) be advised, in what I do and am about, in dealing with It, Thereof, of, where we are not about Individualizing the matter, we are definitely on the “wrong” (abusive) track, is my sense of It, of what needs to be done.. .

    It was nice meeting you FoodMagick, that I need anyone here, otherwise.. .

    Best Whatever Thereof?!.

    Michael Glavic

    It still disappoints me (disturbs me?!. Somewhat) that an official/political language is not considered illegal/immoral/unconstitutional/not Especially helpful? (with some, if not too many, bent on as much? That there isn’t more advancing languages out there, of Communication, of true Communication? that we could understand as much.. .) Oh well, there’s more to be done in that respect, I Feel as Understand! (of as much.. .

    I somewhat feel sorry for folks, Otherwise

  74. Mark Hansen

    …To address the 5-year veggie comment, I was asked to explain how veggies could have helped those babies. I was NOT blaming the parents. It’s not their fault they weren’t taught how to eat correctly. If they had known to eat at 4:1 for the five years prior to conception and they didn’t do it, then and only then would it have been their fault.
    Had they eaten at 4:1 for 5 years prior to conception, then they would have rebuilt their own bodies to a more perfect state of health and immunity in that time, thereby passing along a greater level of immunity to their offspring at conception. Starting immunity is further impacted by the mother’s diet during pregnancy, since it is her diet alone that nurtures the fetus during gestation.

    How do you know what the parent’s diets were like? If they were following your cure-all advice, whom do we blame?

  75. Michael Glavic

    Individualizing more (of the facts? of The truth, no so abusive, otherwise) would be *better* I Feel, as Understand, which would also likely encompass a more meaningful vaccination schedule (along with the dietary, of the more natural? to the individual, as well) and all the results (of Justness, Itself?) that I would more than just hope for, of as much, Thereof

    Best wishes, and thanks for communicating, *as you can,* if not as best you can, Thereof.

    Michael Glavic

    I sense It’s All, coming along.. . (But I’m aware of the bumps along The way.. . (Thereof

    It’s been my pleasure

  76. FoodMagick

    All I see you saying is that if the evidence doesn’t exist in exactly the format you wish, then you will continue to ignore the mountains of clinical results. Not very scientific of you, Chris.

    Try searching “Rockefeller Institute feeding experiments” for some really interesting reading.

    Here’s just one:
    MICROBIC VIRULENCE AND HOST SUSCEPTIBILITY IN PARATYPHOID-ENTERITIDIS INFECTION OF WHITE MICE.
    V. THE EFFECT OF DIET ON HOST RESISTANCE.
    BY LESLIE T. WEBSTER, M.D., And IDA W. PRITCHETT, Sc.D.
    (From the Laboratories of The Rockefeller Institute for Medical Research.)
    (Received for publication, May 8, 1924.)

    Highlights:

    The results of these two experiments show that mice fed on the McCollum diet are more resistant to mouse typhoid infection than are similar mice nourished on a bread and milk diet.

    … in this experiment, as well as in Experiments 1 and 2, the mice fed on the McCollum complete diet were far more resistant to the infection than were those fed on our regular breeding room diet, despite the fact that before the experiment was begun the control diet mice were to all appearances as healthy as were those on the McCollum diet.

    Since we had observed that the resistance of our mice to mouse typhoid infection can be modified through diet, we wished to know whether under similar circumstances they would also prove to be more resistant to bichloride of mercury given by mouth.

    It will be seen from Text-fig. 4 that the mice on the McCollum diet were distinctly more resistant to the injection of bichloride of mercury than were those on the control diet. The McCollum diet curve is very much more gradual and the final mortality rate of these mice is 15 per cent below that of the mice on the control diet.

    Additional evidence in support of the non-specific nature of the resistance conferred by the McCollum diet was obtained from an experiment kindly made for us by Dr. J. Bronfenbrenner in which he compared the resistance of McCollum diet-fed mice and bread and milk diet-fed mice to botulinus toxin.

    The curves (Text-figs. 5 and 6) indicate that the mice fed on the McCollum diet were distinctly more resistant to botulinus toxin than were similar mice maintained on a bread and milk diet.

    CONCLUSIONS. White mice from the Rockefeller Institute breeding room fed on a McCollum complete diet, consisting of whole wheat (67.5 per cent), casein (15 per cent), milk powder (10 per cent), NaCI (1 per cent), CaCQ(1.5 per cent), and butter fat (5 per cent) are more resistant to mouse typhoid infection, mercury bichloride intoxication, and botulinus toxin than are similar mice fed on bread and pasteurized milk supplemented by an oatmeal and buckwheat mixture and dog biscuit.
    _______

    Notice the date of this report. The knowledge that diet affects susceptibility and immunity across generations has been around a while.

    I realize it’s not popular to say that our health is totally in our own hands, and that every single thing we put into our mouths really does matter, but that doesn’t make it any less true.

    Mark, if you’re looking for someone to blame, try Uncle Sam. The government has been aware of these facts for nearly 100 years, yet they continue to recommend far more starch and protein than we need, resulting in our ever-expanding list of illnesses, disorders, and diseases as we continue eating incorrectly across generations.

    Imagine what we could do with all the resources currently being spent identifying, naming, tracking, and studying these health problems, when we can actually prevent them by simply eating correctly.

  77. Chris

    FoodMagick:

    then you will continue to ignore the mountains of clinical results. Not very scientific of you, Chris.

    What mountains of clinical results? You have not provided any. A mouse study is not a clinical study (it is defined as being done in groups of humans), mice are not human and typhoid is not pertussis. And a diet that includes milk is not vegan.

    And if the study was done in 1924, there must be the human equivalent somewhere. Keep digging.

    Just provide the PubMed ID numbers of the studies that show that parents who eat a specific diet for five years would have children resistant to pertussis. You made the claim, it is up to you to provide the evidence in the form that is scientifically acceptable.

  78. Chris

    So this evening I went to my local Drinking Skeptically gathering. I discussed this thread with a recently retired internal medicine doctor. I told him that Food Magick presented a mouse study as an example of a “clinical study”… but the definition of “clinical study” is that it is done on people (not mice!), usually in a clinic…

    His response was… “We usually try to keep mice out of the clinic!”

    There was much laughter. Then the master of ceremony presented the recent Insane Clown Posse music video, followed by the Saturday Night Live parody, where there was more laughter.

  79. FoodMagick

    Wow Chris… if you and your doctor friend truly believe that the laws of nature, physiology, biology, and chemistry apply only to everything else on earth and not humans, then you really are quite obtuse (defined as “not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull”).

    For reports of actual clinical studies on actual groups of humans actually studied in actual clinics, you would actually have to read some of the material actually reported by actual medical doctors and actually linked in previous comments.

    In the meantime, they say ignorance is bliss, so fortunately you still have that. Hey look, now I’m laughing, too!

  80. @FoodMagick

    if you and your doctor friend truly believe that the laws of nature, physiology, biology, and chemistry apply only to everything else on earth and not humans, then you really are quite obtuse

    Psst…mouse biology is different from human biology. Not everything has the same effect. That’s why all drugs need to be tested in humans before they can be marketed for human use.

    For reports of actual clinical studies on actual groups of humans actually studied in actual clinics, you would actually have to read some of the material actually reported by actual medical doctors and actually linked in previous comments.

    You didn’t link to any studies. You provided some web sites, not studies, and told us to go do your homework for you. You made a claim, that eating a particular type of diet will render vaccines obsolete (i.e., that the diet prevents infection and subsequent illness). It is your responsibility to provide the studies that back up your claim. Don’t give us “reports of studies”. Give us the actual studies themselves. Study title, journal title, date of publication, authors, PubMed ID if available, etc.

  81. Mark Hansen

    Actually, foodmagick, I was looking for an answer to my question. You know, the one about how you know what the parents diet is like. And the second question was if they were following the diet you prefer and the child still contracts pertussis, who or what then do we blame? Please try to address the questions asked.

  82. Chris

    Food Magick, you made the claim, therefore you need to provide the evidence. With the easy availability off http://www.pubmed.gov, you have absolutely no excuse for not doing your homework and providing us the evidence that supports your claims.

  83. Chris

    Food Magick, they need your advice in California:
    http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local-beat/Whooping-Cough-Outbreak-in-California-Kills-Two-91888419.html

    Since the start of this year, 219 people have contracted pertussis, and two have died. Both deaths were infants, under 3 months old. One in L.A. county and the other in Fresno county. It’s an alarming number, health leaders say, because at this time last year, there were only 118 cases statewide.

    You should also contact the family mentioned in the article and tell them that your special diet would have been better than the pertussis vaccine.

  84. FoodMagick

    Psst… we study and test on animals first because their physiology is similar enough to our own that we glean useful information for ourselves from the results; otherwise, those results would mean nothing for humans, and there would be no reason to study or test on animals.

    Honestly, if I have to explain something as simple as that to a supposedly scientific-minded group, then it would be an incredible waste of my time to even consider delving into subjects as complex as cellular regeneration, mechanisms of digestion, vitamin and nutrient deficiency and the resulting multitudinous symptoms and health problems, how proper nutrition affects the way our bodies repair and rebuild themselves over time, how rebuilding ourselves with superior nutrition prior to conception and maintaining proper nutrition during pregnancy directly affects the health and immunity of our offspring, and how health and immunity are first inherited from development to birth and then fortified by proper nutrition thereafter.

    It would further be a waste of time for me when those good doctors—whose books I have previously referenced—have already explained it all in great scientific detail therein, and much better than I ever could. But you won’t even give them a glance, much less conduct the tiniest amount of investigation on your own.

    Truly inquisitive minds investigate for themselves. That mouse test report was linked from the National Institutes of Health’s PubMed Central (PMC2128570). In other feeding experiments on mice, scientists denied groups of mice certain essential nutrients each, and they were able to reproduce in each of those nutrient-deficient groups differing aspects of the entire range of human ailments.

    Here’s a question for you: If diet doesn’t directly affect susceptibility to disease, then why would the NIH fund research for Prioritizing Molecular Targets for Cancer Prevention with Nutritional Combinations (R01)?
    Applications are encouraged to consider either multiple dietary bioactive components, intact foods or multiple foods utilizing physiologically relevant concentrations of the agents. New genetic technologies may be employed to study the impact of dietary components on complex cellular and molecular networks, as part of the effort to better understand the basis for the multifaceted interactions of food components with cancer prevention mechanisms.

    They (finally) recognize that correct use of food can prevent disease, and now they want to learn how and why. This is the beginning of the sea change, gentlemen, and sorry but the obdurate will be washed out by the tides.

    To satisfy your slavish single-source fetish, here’s a tiny sampling of the myriad studies that illustrate what I’ve been saying about the awesome power of food (PubMed ID numbers in links):

    Regulatory Function of a Malleable Protein Matrix as a Novel Fermented Whey Product on Features Defining the Metabolic Syndrome.
    Previously, we reported that a malleable protein matrix (MPM), composed of whey fermented by a proprietary Lactobacillus kefiranofaciens strain, has immunomodulatory and anti-inflammatory properties… Results from this study suggest that MPM is a functional ingredient with beneficial effects on lipid metabolism, blood glucose control, and hypertension that might contribute to the management of MetS and thus reducing the risk of cardiovascular diseases.

    The ScanBrit randomised, controlled, single-blind study of a gluten- and casein-free dietary intervention for children with autism spectrum disorders.
    Our results suggest that dietary intervention may positively affect developmental outcome for some children diagnosed with ASD.

    Gene expression changes in mononuclear cells from patients with metabolic syndrome after acute intake of phenol-rich virgin olive oil.
    This study shows that intake of a breakfast based in virgin olive oil rich in phenol compounds is able to repress the in vivo expression of several pro-inflammatory genes, thereby switching the activity of peripheral blood mononuclear cells to a less deleterious inflammatory profile.

    Protective Effect of Sulforaphane on Human Vascular Endothelial Cells Against Lipopolysaccharide-Induced Inflammatory Damage.
    The results showed that sulforaphane inhibited the expression of COX-2 and iNOS stimulated by lipopolysaccharide in a dose- and time-dependent manner.

    The role of caveolae in endothelial cell dysfunction with a focus on nutrition and environmental toxicants.
    Nutrition can modulate the toxicity of environmental pollutants, and evidence suggests that these affect health and disease outcome associated with chemical insults… Functional properties of caveolae can be modulated by nutrition, such as dietary lipids (e.g. fatty acids) and plant-derived polyphenols (e.g., flavonoids), which change activation of caveolae-associated signaling proteins.

    Maternal dietary restriction and selenium supply alters mRNA expression of angiogenic factors in maternal intestine, mammary gland, and fetal jejunal tissues during late gestation in pregnant ewe lambs.
    Data indicate that expression of angiogenic factors and receptors in maternal intestine, mammary gland, and fetal jejunum are responsive to maternal nutrition and likely explain observed changes in tissue vascularity.

    Effect of a worksite-based intervention program on metabolic parameters in middle-aged male white-collar workers: A randomized controlled trial.
    Habitual food group intakes changed significantly in the LiSM group, showing improvements in 14 anthropometric and biochemical parameters contributing to inter-group differences in body weight, body mass index, fasting plasma glucose, insulin and HOMA-IR changes (p<0.01).

    Growth suppression of mouse pituitary corticotroph tumor AtT20 cells by curcumin: a model for treating Cushing’s disease.
    The curcumin-induced growth inhibition was accompanied by decreased NFkappaB activity. Further, curcumin down-regulated the pro-survival protein Bcl-xL, depolarized the mitochondrial membrane, increased PARP cleavage, which led to apoptotic cell death. Finally, curcumin had a concentration-dependent suppressive effect on ACTH secretion from AtT20 cells.

    Dietary iron deficient anemia induces a variety of metabolic changes and even apoptosis in rat liver: a DNA microarray study.
    Combined, these results suggest that iron deficiency exerts various influences, not only on nutrient metabolism, but also on apoptosis, as a consequence of ER stress in the liver.

    Effect of length of exclusive breastfeeding and mixed feeding on hemoglobin levels in the first six months of life: a follow-up study
    In conclusion, inadequate food practices appear to be directly involved in the etiology of iron deficiency anemia during infancy.

    Role of carnitine in disease.
    Nutritional supplementation of L-carnitine, the biologically active form of carnitine, is ameliorative for uremic patients, and can improve nerve conduction, neuropathic pain and immune function in diabetes patients while it is life-saving for patients suffering primary carnitine deficiency. Clinical application of carnitine holds much promise in a range of neural disorders such as Alzheimer’s disease, hepatic encephalopathy and other painful neuropathies. Topical application in dry eye offers osmoprotection and modulates immune and inflammatory responses.

    Alpha-tocopherol transfer protein disruption confers resistance to malarial infection in mice.
    Various factors impact the severity of malaria, including the nutritional status of the host. Vitamin E, an intra and extracellular anti-oxidant, is one such nutrient whose absence was shown previously to negatively affect Plasmodium development… Inhibition of alpha-tocopherol transfer protein (alpha-TTP), a determinant of vitamin E concentration in circulation, confers resistance to malarial infection as a result of oxidative damage to the parasites.

    The influence of gestational zinc deficiency on the fetal insulin-like growth factor axis in the rat.
    Gestational zinc deficiency is teratogenic, resulting in intrauterine growth retardation and structural abnormalities… Fetal growth was significantly reduced by zinc deficiency compared with the Paired and Control groups. Fetuses from the Paired group were smaller compared with the Control, but only ZD fetuses had structural malformations.

    Iron deficiency in infancy and neurocognitive functioning at 19 years: evidence of long-term deficits in executive function and recognition memory.
    Participants with chronic, severe iron deficiency in infancy performed less well on frontostriatal-mediated executive functions, including inhibitory control, set-shifting, and planning. Participants also exhibited impairment on a hippocampus-based recognition memory task. We suggest that these deficits may result from the long-term effects of early iron deficiency on the dopamine system, the hippocampus, and their interaction

    I’m sure I’ve broken some other rule of engagement and/or you’ll pick apart everything I’ve said or quoted here and/or it’s still not enough, but I think I’m done explaining for now. You guys keep fighting what you consider the “good” fight, and I’ll catch you on the flipside.

    P.S. In my small amount of digging I’ve noticed that lots of information found on PubMed also exists on whale.to (shocker!).

    Some parting food for thought:

    How do we honestly calculate vaccine efficacy when we have destroyed the evidence?

    Excerpt from Dr. Hay’s address to the Medical Information Society on 6/25/1937:

    When you have protected anybody, as we denote protection in medicine, you have at the same time destroyed your evidence. If that man doesn’t take the disease against which he is supposed to be protected, how can you ever know he would have taken it if he hadn’t been protected?

    We can’t. All we can do is infer efficacy, but when noting the pattern of decline already in progress before wide-spread compulsory vaccination—and how it hasn’t really changed since—all that inference seems moot.

    As a matter of fact, perhaps it is safe to say that not more than 10 per cent of the people ever would take smallpox if sleeping in the same bed with an infected smallpox victim. We know there is a large immunity to smallpox. Very few people are subject to it, and these usually in the filthiest surroundings. Now, if we carry that natural immunity to smallpox as we do other diseases, and we have been protected by vaccination and then we are exposed to smallpox and don’t take it, don’t you see there is no proof there? We may be carrying a natural Immunity. If one case that has been successfully vaccinated afterwards develops smallpox, that is proof that it isn’t protection, now, isn’t it?

    I know of one epidemic of smallpox comprising nine hundred and some cases in which 95 per cent of the infected had been vaccinated, and most of them recently. I have had in my own experience one very small epidemic comprising 33 cases, of which 29 had vaccination histories a “good” scar, and some of them vaccinated within the last year. There was no protection there.

    An outbreak of whooping cough in a highly vaccinated urban community.
    An outbreak of whooping cough occurred in Cape Town between 1 June 1988, and 31 May 1989, with 292 children admitted to hospital for whooping cough during this period (hospital admission rate in children under 5 years of age = 187 per 100,000). In an investigation of 239 children attending four pre-primary schools in the city, the whooping cough attack rate was 33 per cent, while pertussis vaccine coverage was 95 per cent.

    What is true of smallpox is true of every other disease. We are not all equally subject to all the diseases that occur. We know that without thinking. An epidemic of influenza sweeps over the country. Why doesn’t everyone have it? The germ… is ubiquitous. They are everywhere. You can’t hide from them. And yet perhaps but 10 per cent of the population of any region will be infected. What protects the 90 per cent? Natural immunity.

    We may have natural immunity this year and we may not have it next year, but we can’t create it artificially by using a so-called immune serum. As I say, when we do use an immune serum we have destroyed every possibility of using that case as evidence, because we have no way of knowing whether it would ever have been infected.

    What is true of vaccination is exactly as true of all forms of serum immunization, so called. There is no such thing as immunization, but we sell it under the name, “immunization.” We jab a needle full of pus germs, we will say the streptococcus, for instance, in attenuated form so it won’t pollute too badly, and we increase the dose or potency of that little by little until we build up what we call a resistance to it. You can do the same thing with the rattlesnake venom. You can be bitten just a little by a rattlesnake and not die, and if you are bitten often enough, you can be bitten in a vital part and not die; you have built up a resistance to the venom of the rattlesnake, but have you improved your physique by doing so? If we could by any means build up a natural resistance to disease through these artificial means, I would applaud it to the echo, but we can’t do it. The body has its own methods of defense. These depend on the vitality of the body at the time. If it is vital enough, it will resist all infections; if it isn’t vital enough, it won’t, and you can’t change the vitality of the body for the better by introducing poison of any kind into it.

  85. FoodMagick

    Links were stripped.

    Regulatory Function of a Malleable Protein Matrix as a Novel Fermented Whey Product on Features Defining the Metabolic Syndrome.(20406141)

    The ScanBrit randomised, controlled, single-blind study of a gluten- and casein-free dietary intervention for children with autism spectrum disorders.(20406576)

    Gene expression changes in mononuclear cells from patients with metabolic syndrome after acute intake of phenol-rich virgin olive oil.(20406432)

    Protective Effect of Sulforaphane on Human Vascular Endothelial Cells Against Lipopolysaccharide-Induced Inflammatory Damage.(20405237)

    The role of caveolae in endothelial cell dysfunction with a focus on nutrition and environmental toxicants.(20406324)

    Maternal dietary restriction and selenium supply alters mRNA expression of angiogenic factors in maternal intestine, mammary gland, and fetal jejunal tissues during late gestation in pregnant ewe lambs.(20407071)

    Effect of a worksite-based intervention program on metabolic parameters in middle-aged male white-collar workers: A randomized controlled trial.(20403374)

    Growth suppression of mouse pituitary corticotroph tumor AtT20 cells by curcumin: a model for treating Cushing’s disease.(20405005)

    Dietary iron deficient anemia induces a variety of metabolic changes and even apoptosis in rat liver: a DNA microarray study.(20388835)

    Effect of length of exclusive breastfeeding and mixed feeding on hemoglobin levels in the first six months of life: a follow-up study(20396856)

    Role of carnitine in disease.(20398344)

    Alpha-tocopherol transfer protein disruption confers resistance to malarial infection in mice.(20403155)

    The influence of gestational zinc deficiency on the fetal insulin-like growth factor axis in the rat.(20404036)

    Iron deficiency in infancy and neurocognitive functioning at 19 years: evidence of long-term deficits in executive function and recognition memory.(20406573)

    An outbreak of whooping cough in a highly vaccinated urban community.(2027168)

  86. Chris

    Absolutely none of those studies in your Gish Gallop show that a certain diet protects against pertussis.

    The only thing that was about pertussis was a study that shows the importance of herd immunity and that the vaccine wears off, plus it is not on the DTaP.

    Some herd immunity arithmetic:

    Take 1000 people (ignoring the infants under 2 months who cannot be vaccinated, or babies under a year who can only be partially vaccinated), if 5% refuse vaccines then the numbers are:

    950 vaccinated persons (assuming full schedule)
    50 unvaccinated persons

    The pertussis vaccine is actually only 80% effective at worse, so the numbers are:

    760 protected persons
    190 vaccinated but vulnerable persons
    50 unvaccinated persons

    There is an outbreak and it gets spread to 20% of the population, then:

    760 protected persons without pertussis

    38 vaccinated persons get pertussis
    152 vaccinated person who may still get pertussis

    10 unvaccinated persons get pertussis
    40 unvaccinated persons who may still get pertussis.

    This is how more vaccinated persons get the disease than unvaccinated. Even if the infection rate was at 100%, there would still be more of the vaccinated getting the diseases because there are more of them!

  87. Mark Hansen

    …P.S. In my small amount of digging I’ve noticed that lots of information found on PubMed also exists on whale.to (shocker!)…
    Yep, and a stopped watch is right twice a day. Creationists would also say we need to breath to live. Doesn’t make all of what they say any more accurate though.

  88. Chris

    In reference to whale.to: I wonder if Food Magick has also had his bum burned by a satanic ley line. ;-)

  89. Mark Hansen

    Oh wow. I had never really given whale.to the respect it deserves. It is a really good laugh. I particularly like the bit about Randi being a psychic and using his powers to “scupper anyone doing a dowsing demonstration.” That is priceless! Thanks for the tip, Chris; laughter may not be the best medicine but it is the most affordable.

  90. Chris

    For fun, look up “Scopie’s Law” at the RationalWiki. The owner of whale.to, John Scudamore, is a farmer in the UK who believes all sorts of weird stuff.

    I first encountered Scudamore on Usenet almost ten years ago. I actually tried to read some of his stuff, and found some weird stuff. I was taken aback by one smallpox screed that had lots of blatantly racist comments about American Indians. Then I looked and saw that it was dated in the late 19th century. Scudamore is not much into recent medical literature. I believe it has to ripen for half a century before he will use it, and only if it agrees with him (classic cherry picking).

  91. Chris

    Food Magick, I looked at your list and only one condition mentioned was a vaccine preventable disease, smallpox. Oddly enough, smallpox is no longer around.

    An immune system is a delicately balanced system. Go one way and a person will get ill from minor things (immune deficiency, which can be genetic) or go the other way and a person will get autoimmune disorders like allergies, arthritis, Type 1 diabetes and on and on. Vaccines do not make the immune system “stronger” but more like smarter (and some humans have immune systems with learning disabilities, so vaccines are not 100% effective, and sometimes they forget the previous education and boosters are needed, which if you noticed I place the effectiveness of the DTaP vaccine at 80% for pertussis).

    Anyway, good nutrition is not disputed in the prevention of hypertension (not a vaccine preventable disorder), Type 2 diabetes (not a vaccine preventable disorder), anemia (not a vaccine preventable disorder), and on and on…including disease resistance. But food is only one part.

    Your insistence that (quoting you) “The ONLY way parents can safely NOT vaccinate their children is if they also feed those kids a preponderance of fresh fruits and non-starchy veggies, strictly limit or prevent intake of processed foods and animal proteins, and practice good food combining……If we all did that, no one would ever need vaccinations.”

    … and admiration for whale.to seems to indicate you are a “germ theory” denier.

    (Scudamore claims diseases have been renamed. He says smallpox is not monkey pox, a completely different disease… and that polio is now meningitis — totally ignoring that there are methods to actually genetically identify the virus. The reason he ignores it is that he does not believe germs exist, and if they did exist “the invisible things” cannot hurt you. Yet, he insists that his bum was burned by a satanic ley line in his basement!)

    Which is why you should be ignored. After this I will no longer respond to you.

    It is obvious there are severe gaps in your education. You have obviously never taken a quality course in either biology or chemistry. You can remedy that deficit by enrolling in courses at your local community college, but that might require you to open up your mind to ideas that go against your beliefs (FoodMagick indeed!).

  92. FoodMagick

    Only if by germ denier you mean I am someone who denies germs the ability to flourish inside my body by keeping internal pH at the proper levels via a more alkaline diet, then you would be correct.

    I know of whale.to only from making the one link here, being scolded about it, and then making the back-handed comment on an observation gained while searching the internet. So label me what you want, and ignore me if you wish. Doesn’t bother me in the least.

    Go ahead and also ignore the study (20403155) that shows how certain nutritional status of the blood causes oxidative damage to the malaria parasite.

    Here’s a clue for you: when the body has the correct pH balance, it neutralizes all foreign invaders.

    Just as some plants grow better in acidic soil, and some grow better in soil that’s more alkaline, so it is even with the tiniest flora and fauna of the earth. The beneficial bacteria and symbiotic parasites that belong inside us flourish and function properly only in a more alkaline environment. The ones that don’t belong inside us flourish only under less alkaline conditions, and they don’t even survive in a more alkaline environment.

    You are correct, too, that food is only one part of it, but that part is easily 99%. Improper use of food causes the pH imbalance, which is the first cause behind every single one of our health problems–including infection–and causes generational deficiencies as we continue in our incorrect food habits.

    Proper nutrition can overcome environmental, inherited, and even genetic factors. It reverses disease, lessens the severity of environmental pollutants, changes immune response, and even affects gene expression. So yes, it’s just one part… but it’s far and away the most important part.

    Thanks for introducing me to PubMed. What a fascinating source for scientific studies to demonstrate what Dr. Hay already proved 100 years ago! And it’s especially exciting to see that they’re apparently getting closer and closer to the truth.

  93. Wow!

    “denies germs the ability to flourish inside my body by keeping internal pH at the proper levels via a more alkaline diet”

    ROFL! That is not even wrong.

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