You see people, that’s how you deal with atheist skum. With LOGIC! Hit that bullseye and the rest of the dominoes will come down like a house of cards… CHECKMATE!

And on that note…

Dunt dun duuh DAAAAHHHH!

!!!!!!!!!MY ATHEIST STORE!!!!!!!!!

Aristotle’s Muse

This is my store. Maybe wearing an atheist T-shirt won’t change the world, but enough of them just might.

“We’re all in this together” sure sounds nice, but the reality is not nearly so pleasant. There really are people in the world that actually want us dead because of what we don’t believe. I don’t think they can be reasoned out of that position.

Education and reason works for a select few, whom I think would shed their delusions with or without us. Thinking that it will work on a large percentage of the population seems to be an exercise in futility. I’d be tickled pink if nearly everybody could be persuaded with logic and reason. My experience, however, tells me that’s not the case. So at some point I’ve got to be logical about my own expectations and methods and realize that a shift in aim and strategy is probably warranted.

Aren’t we, for the most part, working toward a common goal and isn’t cooperation also preferable? Perhaps you think not, but I continue to think that people have enough in common to do so. We all seem to want to get through life with as little true suffering as possible, and extend that to not wanting to watch other people suffer either. There are many obstacles to acknowledging that we’re all playing the same game, but most of us are anyway. Creating more “us” and “them” situations just muddies the field.

I really don’t think using the same silencing methods that were used to combat racism and sexism over the last 50 years are the most effective tools. Look at the evidence we have today that bigotry of all sorts has been bubbling under the surface somewhat quietly for years, only to be brought to light again, as ugly as ever. I don’t think it’s a truly effective method, this attempt to shame people into keeping their mouths shut. Education and reason worked for many people, and I think that’s the way to go.

But we can certainly differ in opinion.

http://www.physorg.com/news125155198.html”

Interesting, but not relevant to what I’m talking about. This study assumes everyone is playing the same game, working toward a common goal. It says that punishment doesn’t lead to increased cooperation.

That’s all well and good, but when I’m dealing with a recalcitrant believer, I don’t want cooperation. I’ve already tried that and he doesn’t move. If he is unwilling or unable to honestly consider his beliefs and continues to proclaim them publicly, my only goal at that point is to get him to quiet down and to let others see the ridiculousness of his position. It’s about creating peer pressure against those beliefs. It’s about getting people to say “wow, that guy really looks silly, I’m sure not going to say the kinds of things he says”.

Is that being a dick? Maybe. But we’re not going to win everyone over to our way of thinking. In fact, we’re not going to win very many over. I think we should be focused on mitigating the harmful effects of magic belief more than trying to get everyone to agree with us.

Do you really think a series of studies that demonstrated solid evidence for what does cause autism would actually make Jenny McCarthy change her mind?

I do contribute money to that cause, but I also correct people when they say vaccines are the cause (because while we may not know what does cause it, we know for a fact it isn’t vaccines). When those people refuse to listen to the facts and rational arguments I present, I see no reason to continue being nice or even polite to them.

I think the problem you and I are having is in describing the mindset of believers. You seem to think (please correct me if I’m wrong) that they believe what they believe because they don’t have enough information or haven’t been exposed to the facts. While I agree that is the case for some, I think there is something deeper than that. To paraphrase Dr. House: if logic and reason worked on believers, we wouldn’t have any more believers around. I think there is a big cultural component to belief and while they can believe almost any amount of ridiculous things without fear of having to be accountable for those beliefs, they will almost certainly continue to do so. I also think that if someone is so inclined to abandon those beliefs, they don’t need any help from us to do so. Deconversion is a deeply personal process and while someone might get a little bit of information from us, they’re going to do most of the work alone. Plus, all the facts and arguments they need are already out there. We don’t need to reinvent the wheel here.

I think the best we can do is create situations where the believer must face his beliefs and give them honest consideration. I also think it’s tough to create those situations without hurting some feelings. And keep in mind, the truth, no matter how nicely you put it, is going to hurt some feelings. What I fear is that we’re more concerned with hurting feelings than we are with speaking truth.