Isn’t it better to realise that nations as a whole are not reflections of a small number of their more insane inhabitants, and that individuals from a particular country are not always fully indoctrinated robots, automatically sinking to the worst level of that nation?

I know that – it’s not what I’m saying at all.

A few nutjobs in Ireland or Indonesia do not make me think worse of those nations as a whole, just as I can read your posts and still think of Australians as a decent bunch of people I’d like to have a beer with.

Well I’m happy to have a beer with you & I think I’m a decent person too.

Discussing such issues face to face rather than over the net is probably better – I think you & others are really misunderstanding what I’m saying here.

I’m not saying *all* Indonesians are bad but there are elements of Indonesian culture – & Muslim culture more broadly – which are very troubling and which are incompatible with Western civilisation & Western values.

I think President Obama is overly infuenced by his background into overlooking the worse side of Islam and Islamic nations which is not good when we are at war with these people. I think the Western world needs to be led by someone who is unapologetically proud of Western ideals such as equality of everybody incl. women and gays, freedom of expression and all the other good things that have made the West what it is.

The President of the United States is effectively the leader of the Western world – so I think it is reasonable to have misgivings over Obama seeming to identify with and support the culture and beliefs – some incredibly nasty – of our current enemies. Does that not make sense to y’all?

“The fact that Obama was raised in Indonesia means the nurture / socio-cultural environment part of Obama’s nature /nurture equation was Indonesian. Indonesia is the world’s largest Muslim nation and is a hotbed of terrorism with such things as the Bali bombings which killed many Aussies among other Westerners and the headquarters of the Jemaah Islamiya terrorist group among others. Given Obama lived many of his formative years there it does raise certain legitimate questions over his cultural and political identity and where his sympathies lie. ”

What sort of stand do you take against, for example, concert tours or sales of recorded music by the likes of Enya, The Corrs or Van Morrison? Never mind whether or not you like those people or their music: they’re from (and grew up in) Ireland, the home of the IRA and other terrorist groups which have killed a few thousand people over the years (including some Aussies) – by your argument, we should assume they’re likely to be implicit if not explicit accomplices in every death caused by an Irish terrorist shooting or bombing. Heck – given that many Americans supported the IRA financially – I should be justified in wanting to see that nation disappear from the planet entirely, and given CIA activity here and there over the years I’d rightly be joined by most of the people on the planet. Using (as I say) your argument, which I think (to put it politely) is specious.

Isn’t it better to realise that nations as a whole are not reflections of a small number of their more insane inhabitants, and that individuals from a particular country are not always fully indoctrinated robots, automatically sinking to the worst level of that nation? A few nutjobs in Ireland or Indonesia do not make me think worse of those nations as a whole, just as I can read your posts and still think of Australians as a decent bunch of people I’d like to have a beer with.

“Can’t I voice my opinion?”

Of course you can – but equally, everyone else can voice theirs. If your opinion is silly, well, others may have (and voice) an opinion on that… them’s the perils of you not living in your own monocracy.

@ 30. jfb Says:

@MTU: “It should also be noted that Obama being African-American is a common misunderstanding – Obama is actually biracial half European American and half Kenyan-Indonesian-American.”
Kenya was part of Africa, last I checked. Secondly, BHO Sr. was not part Indonesian; both of his parents were Kenyan.”

The fact that Obama was raised in Indonesia means the nurture / socio-cultural environment part of Obama’s nature /nurture equation was Indonesian. Indonesia is the world’s largest Muslim nation and is a hotbed of terrorism with such things as the Bali bombings which killed many Aussies among other Westerners and the headquarters of the Jemaah Islamiya terrorist group among others. Given Obama lived many of his formative years there it does raise certain legitimate questions over his cultural and political identity and where his sympathies lie.

Plus “African-American” isn’t necessarily the same as recently coming from Africa to America. There’s an African-American community that has been generations in the USA with a culture and history of its own and then there’s Kenyan-Americans which are Americans from a recent Kenyan migrant background. “African-American” refers to those of real previous generations of African-slave-originating-American background – which Obama isn’t. Politically Correctness really does make it hard to communicate plainly sometimes.

[Pro-Muslim] Meaning, he’s [Obama's] not out to blow them off the face of the Earth just on general principle.

Aaand ‘blowing Muslims off the face of the Earth on general principle’ is a bad thing because..??

Okay, not really. But the thing is that all too many Muslims (not *all* I know, but more than enough) want to blow *the West* off the face of the Earth – and are actively trying to do so. Westerners then cannot fairly be blamed for responding in self-defence or viewing Muslims negatively as a result of, y’know, such Islamic terrorism & rhetoric.

Besides Obama goes wa-ay further on the pro-Muslim side ledger than you suggest to the point of activly favouring Islam over the Western (incl. Israeli) interests – in my view anyhow.

@27. llewelly Says:

Indonesia is one of the places he grew up in, not part of his race.

I know that – I was referring to the fact that he was raised in Indonesia by a Kenyan Muslim father & an American-Amercian mother and thus his idenity is part Kenyan part Indonesian and part American. Obama is two thirds non-American in reality. Non-American Kenyan Muslim father, non-American Indonesian upbringing, partly American by descent on his mothers side only – and she was atypical enough to be non-American in choice of her life partner and living overseas for a considerable time. You can call Obama many things but “all-American” is certainly NOT one of them.

@22. MaDeR Says:

did you know that Obama’s grandma was Armenian, and he himself is in fact Jude?

Obama is very clearly NOT Jewish. Claiming that is far more absurd and unfounded by any reasonable evidence than suspecting based on his evident pro-Islamic bias that he’s secretly Muslim or knowing he used to belong to Jeremiah Wright’s radical anti-American “Christian” group.

You claimed it is free and democratic. I consider USA neither. I already told about duopoly and you ignored this.

Well *I* consider the USA both free and democratic.

To support this I’ll note the United States has elections, has a free press & a constitution & Bill of Rights full of checks & balances and so forth. Americans – and Westerners also value freedom and human rights in a way much of the rest of the world – notably Communist China and the Islamic totalitarian theocracies just don’t.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

We are so lucky to be born in nations that take that for granted.
That take elections and freedom of expression for granted.
Isn’t it time we stopped attacking & undermining our own culture and started standing up for it proudly against those who would take those freedoms and rights away and replace them with nastier less free, less ideal ways?

As for duopoly – that’s just not so. Do the names Ralph Nader and Ross Perot mean anything to you?

Do you claim that democratic goverment cannot possible lie or practice propaganda?

Well *all* governments try to spin things and use proganda in their favour -but the extent and the checks & balances & the ways of detecting and countering this are vastly different – especially comparing this between USA Vs North Korea – for …heaven’s.. sake!

“The Iraq war was in retrospect a mistake but it sure wasn’t that simple.” Do you deny that official reason to start this war was based on complete lie? And I claim this was known already by deciders.
“you consider them do you really think the go to war just for the fun of it without good reason like pantomine villains” No, not for fun, but for reasons that have nothing to do with anything what I would consider “good reason”.

Yes I do indeed deny that your ridiculous (if sadly all too common) allegation of “going to war for a lie” is true.

I consider there were at least three good reasons why we invaded Iraq (& Australia sent troops there too along with the UK and others don’t forget) :

1. Saddam was trying to aquire and suspected of developing WMDs which he had a record of using ruthlessly.

2. Saddam was a regional threat to peace and stability and a state sponser of terrorism.

3. Saddam was brutally oppressing and slaughtering his own people and there was the hope that removing his regime would create a positive example for other nasty Islamic nations in the vicinity.

We now know Saddam probably didn’t actually have WMDs and was bluffing – but he had used them in the past and was seeking to aquire them in the future. The invasion prevented this from happening.

We also know Saddam sponsered terrorism – eg. the Palestinians – & was athreta to our allies liek Arabia and Kuwait. Well we took care of that. Saddam’s regime no longer poses a threat to its neighbours. Some of the Iraqui insurgents still do – but they are mostly Iranian-aided and motivated and that’s another complex story again ..

We freed the Iraqi people from Saddam. The rest of it hasn’t gone as planned – long story & yes, alot of political & military mistakes contributed there – but that’s still more the Iraqi peoples fault than ours IMHON.

Lies? Nup, no lies. Some wishful over-optimistic thinking sure. Soem mistaken judegmenst probably but tomake Bush outas some war criminal for doing what he thought was the right thing basedonthe information he had at hand at the time is going too far. I’m no huge fan of Bush’es – but I’m also sensible enough not to make him into a melodrama villain caricature either.

Clearly we’re not going to see eye-to-eye on such issues. But I hope I’ve given you some cause to think again and to understand why I think as I do.

Its just that whenever I hear anything about the Moon now I can’t help but think :

“Durnnit,we should be going there already! Thanks Obama – NOT!”

Then I start feeling steamed up. Its a hot button issue with me. I don’t mean to spoil things for people here but .. sheesh. Can’t I voice my opinion?

I think it *is* important for our futures – not just for Americans but Westerners more widely and the rest of Humanity in general & I do strongly feel that Obama has betrayed the human space program and science and our collective futures with it. I hate him for that. Really hate him.

Also note that the Bad Astronomer also referred to politics and raised the issue of Obama’s background & religious beliefs in the opening article – or was I the only one to actually click the link in that post?

@44. Grand Lunar :

@ 2. Messier Tidy, Sorry, but your closing statement in that post isn’t very smart.

Yeah, maybe not in retrospect.

@24. MT-LA Says:

Then, to fully complete the circle of (I dont even have an adjective for this), you announce to all that you will not even bother checking the responses to your many and varied questions.

Not true. Saying I’m going to go for a walk and then sleep isn’t at all the same as saying I’m not going to check or reply later. Don’t you have to sleep sometimes too? I’m in a (very) different timezone & was just letting people know that if they didn’t already. Okay?

Naturally, I don’t agree with the rest of your assessment of my conduct on this thread either.

Thanks for your comments in #45. I won’t try to address them here; I’ll just make some changes in the table. As you noted, it is intended to reflect what’s in that particular book.

I’ve generally been quite critical of books by Ward & Brownlee. I really liked Ward’s Under a Green Sky, however, and am now reading his new one, The Flooded Earth.