But when we’re teaching our kids history doesn’t it seem reasonable to teach them our own history – where we came from and how our culture came to be what it is – first and foremost?

Here’s your first problem. In our multi-cultural society, ‘where we come from’ is pretty much meaningless. Yes, let’s teach kids the history of our own country: but for many kids, to only do this would leave out much of their own past. Should we only teach about White settlement in Australia, and leave out Indigenous culture? Should we leave out the importance of Asian countries, which were very much a big part of the gold rush era? Should we really pretend that the only successful people in Australia are white males?

The point being that if we leave nothing out, then everyone gets to learn about everything. (Oh, I guess you missed the bit about “balance”)

Western culture is superior to other cultures – I feel this is demonstrably true. The USA is a superpower. Russia was but isn’t, China is trying to be but still isn’t .. India ..can’t even run a sporting festival judging by the current Commonwealth Games fiasco, Iran & the rest of the Muslim world .. don’t make me laugh!

Once again, I see plenty of opinion, but no evidence to back it up. I think you’re trying to put a modern/future POV on historical issues. Just because China isn’t the superpower yet doesn’t mean we have to downplay their role in past issues or ‘progress’. Just because the games are a joke (oh yeah, cause we never ever hear about how the games are going to fail in the weeks before they happen!) doesn’t say much about a country which is technologically competing with the US. Not to mention the fact that ‘West’ itself is not really definitive, since everything is west of something. Would India be called ‘West’ if it were still part of the British empire?

Frankly, I have no opinion over which way is better. I really don’t care that much. What I take issue with is this: you haven’t convinced me, because all you have given me is opinion. Where are the stats? Where’s the proof? Or as it is oft said: the burden is on you to prove that the West is the best. And I don’t see anything but your say so here.

What, Flip, do have against the Western civilisation? Why do you wish to downgrade and downplay the importance of it? Why would you rather Western kids were taught with less emphasi on who they are and how they have come to be themselves annd more emphasis on irrelevant, arguably backwards cultures?

Hmm, yep, you *did* miss my bit about balance. Thanks for creating that nice burning strawman on a cold night. Irrelevant is in the eye of the beholder, and very much dependent on which part of the world you reside in, and what happened before. I’d particularly love to hear you say that last sentence to someone of Indigenous background in Australia. But then I suppose, that’s only a PC response, not one based on rationality, like I dunno… teaching kids about who they are and where they come from in the context of their own country, history and culture.

For the record, I never had studies on Aboriginal culture at my Australian schools, outside of the extremely brief comparitive religion class – about 20 min. worth. I would have liked to have learned about every culture, not just the White European one that was so loftily taught in all my history classes which lasted many semesters over many years. It’s like nothing happened before Cook got here. That’s *not* balance. That’s exactly the type of bias that is referred to in this post.

(You also didn’t reply to that most interesting link I posted)

… Also, what Black Cat said.

Putting for the Landru argument I see?

If you honestly think that liberals ‘love Islam’ you really need to get out more.

What I find remarkable in this is being reminded, once again, just how frightened and INSECURE conservatives are. They seem to feel like if American schoolchildren are *allowed* to learn about Islam, somehow they’ll all ‘catch Islam’ or something. If Western Christian culture is as superior as conservatives claim, shouldn’t exposing children to other cultures just further CONVINCE American children of the superiority of American Christian Conservatism? It’s amazing how conservatives are always so certain that Americans must be kept ignorant for conservatism to be ‘safe’.

>Then I am sure you can explain exactly what the flaws are with it. Or are we just supposed to take your word for it?

No, you are supposed to look at both the complaint – which I linked to – and the refutation that you linked to a couple posts above mine. One is reasonably specific, one cherry picks and tries to refute the other – and in the process pretty much reinforces the validity of the complaint.

e.g., the complaint mentions that women’s rights issues aren’t covered very well – the refutation says, “oh no – they said right here that it might be harder for women to get a divorce and they inherit less property.” Would you really sum up women’ s rights issues in the islamic world as, “it is harder to get a divorce and you might inherit less property”?

What, Flip, do have against the Western civilisation? Why do you wish to downgrade and downplay the importance of it? Why would you rather Western kids were taught with less emphasi on who they are and how they have come to be themselves annd more emphasis on irrelevant, arguably backwards cultures?

Once again, where has Flip, or anyone else here, said anything remotely similar to this?

It is common knowledge – and I have experienced it personally in my days at schooland uni – that there is a strong bias towards the left wing, towards trendy Post Modernism, Cultural Relativism and Political Correctness.

Fascinating. But you were accusing us, or at least one of us, of holding that position. Where has anyone here said anything even remotely similar to this? It is a strawman because neither the person you were addressing nor anyone else here has said anything even remotely similar to this. Pointing out that some people somewhere hold a position is not the same of accusing a specific person of holding that position with no basis whatsoever.

Those dead old white guys – the explorers, the inventors, the kings and leaders, may be uncool but they are (with a few notable exceptions like Queen Elizabeth & Madame Curie) the one’s who had the most significance for making our modern Western civilisation what it is.

Your ignorance of the contributions of other cultures to our modern western society is staggering.

In the USA I think kids should focus mainly on what made the USA the USA it is today.

So in other words, in the modern, global era, we should just ignore influences that have a major role on societies that have massive influences on our economy and global political position?

This does not really include the Muslim world to any large extent.

That is because you are not familiar with the role the Muslim world played in shaping our modern society. You are a poster child for why this education is necessary.

Here’s a challenge for you : name three Muslims who have had a major beneficial affect on our Western civilisation in the past 300 years. Who invented or dicovered or led their nation or military well and wisely in constructive allience with the Western world. I bet you can’t do it!

Why are you suddenly talking about the last 300 years? I specifically explained that the major Muslim influence on our society lasted until around A.D. 1500. Now you are expecting me to defend their role at least 200 years after I said it became much less?

In both cases, an overview of world history should cover the rise of the Western & European civilisations at the expense of the regressing, stagnant Islamic world.

But I take it you think they shouldn’t include the rise of Muslim and Eastern civilizations at the expense of the regressing, stagnant Western & European world that happened prior.

The Renaissance was four centuries ago.

So…? Are you saying we should ignore the Renaissance, or anything that came before? Otherwise I don’t understand the relevance of this point.

Even then while Islam was a threat to European civilisation it wasn’t exactly a dominant power although they did control parts of Spain and menace the gates of Vienna. Essentially, they were antagonists to civilisation and not bringers of it;

That is only true if you define “civilization” as “Europe”. At the time, Muslims were the civilized ones, Europe was the backward, regressive area.

And even if they were just antagonists, they were still a key driving force for a lot of major events in European history, so it is important to understand them from that regard.

a large threat but not quite as severe as the Mongol hordes or the barbarians who brought down Rome.

The “barbarians” that brought down Rome were Europeans themselves, not an external threat. And Muslims were a major threat, if they hadn’t been defeated at the Battle of Tours it is possible (although still debated) that Europe would have been conquered.

On the positive side, I’ll grant you they managed to keep some of the Greek records and philosophies alive and pass them along to Europe – but the Arabs themselves did precious little with them.

That is simply false. They made a great deal of progress.

This is NOT what I’m arguing for! Talk of strawmen, sheesh.

Teach Islam briefly where necessary and where it touches on our civilisation, sure. But let’s not focus too much on it and let’s keep it in perspective. Oh and especially let’s not overlook Islam’s negatives such as jihads, burkas, “honour killings” and terrorism for the sake of being Politically Correct.

First, although you claim this, the specifics you provide explicitly downplay the real role the Muslims had in shaping modern Western society. Second, as I keep pointing out but you keep ignoring, that is exactly what I and the members of the board who voted against the resolution wanted. The side you are agreeing with wanted to downplay the role of anyone other then Christian Europeans in shaping modern society.

Is it me or does MTU think the whole world is only in the West?

Of course, I don’t think that.
I am very well aware that the West isn’t all there is to the world.
Of course, I know cultures interact and we pick up things from other cultures.

But when we’re teaching our kids history doesn’t it seem reasonable to teach them our own history – where we came from and how our culture came to be what it is – first and foremost?

Isn’t that what is most relevant – & isn’t it also true to note that the world is increasingly Westernised or, put more plainly, Americanised?

Western culture is superior to other cultures – I feel this is demonstrably true. The USA is a superpower. Russia was but isn’t, China is trying to be but still isn’t .. India ..can’t even run a sporting festival judging by the current Commonwealth Games fiasco, Iran & the rest of the Muslim world .. don’t make me laugh!

I am not a Cultural Relativist, I am not PC. The heck with that!

The West is number one and deservedly so. Our way of life is better – that’s why refugees are fleeing from there to here & why they are trying to reach our standard of living and not vice-versa. Why we are leading the world and they aren’t. Our economic system is better than others – that’s why Capitalism won over Communism in the Cold War. Our values and lifestyle are what other nations and cultures are measured by and what they are trying to acheive. That’s the un-PC reality for y’all.

Western civilisation is the dominant one. It is our one and I think it is the best. it is something I beleive in and think is worth supporting and arguing for. Don’t you?

What, Flip, do have against the Western civilisation? Why do you wish to downgrade and downplay the importance of it? Why would you rather Western kids were taught with less emphasi on who they are and how they have come to be themselves annd more emphasis on irrelevant, arguably backwards cultures?

What’s with so many CR PC Left-Wingers and their hatred for their own kind and own culture? Where’s their pride in their ancestors and their culture?

Whatever the guy’s opinions on other issues (and I’m on the extreme opposite side of his), this makes some interesting reading:
gordonmoyes dot com/2010/09/02/is-islamophobia-the-new-white-australia/

I will gladly admit to being a lazy skeptic and not having done any fact checking of the research quoted in the piece, so if there are any problems with it I am prepared to get an earful (er, eyeful).

EDIT: My previous comment I mentioned that some harassed are not Muslim or migrants, but I can’t see that in the article. Either I’m skimming too fast to find that reference, or my memory was faulty. Anyway, my point is the same.

Does it not occur to you that issues in one part of the world affect the rest of it? Or did the Chinese cultural revolution happen on its own, without influence from Western ideas?

The problem with your idea of ‘teach the Western point of view’ is that it is much like ‘teach the creation myth’ fallacy of creationism. If you want to teach one, you have to teach the others too. Whether or not you think the Western world is the greatest thing since sliced atoms, it’s no more or less equal – in the cultural/historical sense – than the view that ‘Eastern’ societies are better than yours. The entire point of this post is *balance*, not “lots of one, and some of the other, because one side seems to be more prosperous/scientific/democratic/whatever MTU defines as progress, than the other”.

“Teach Islam briefly where necessary and where it touches on our civilisation, sure. But let’s not focus too much on it and let’s keep it in perspective.”

Why not leave the perspective up to graduate students, and not primary or high school students? I’d rather balance given to everything, since we’re living on a globe, not two mountains with an abyss in between. We can come and go from all areas, and in a society which is globalised, a more general perspective will aid in solving future problems. A course or two in ‘Eastern’ culture for US presidents might actually get something done; people who can see Russia from their backyard – when it’s Alaska – are more likely to screw things up. The very fact that Islam is left out of the discussion only serves to create more frustration from those who believe Islamic POVs are not being heard; and encourage non-Muslims to ostracize those who are.

MTU might want to go read a piece (I had written a short article for my ex-employer, but it seems they’ve removed the site… if I find the link again I’ll post it. It was from a Family First senator. – I know, I know, but the essay and links are worth reading. It was posted around election time and the site/name of person eludes me) which shows stats that state that Muslim immigrants and those from Middle Eastern countries – legal migrants mind you – have faced increasing prejudice, including harassment, rape, etc in Australia. I’ll add a number of people who have been harrassed aren’t Muslim; some weren’t even migrants, but second-generation or third. Perhaps if *more* education about Islam were happening, other people wouldn’t be dealing with that sort of thing. If we’re comparing Western society with Muslim countries and how they treat people, then Australia should be in the firing line just as much.

(And I wish that were the end of your high horse, but I know I’m wasting my breath. I’ll gladly agree that the West has some good things to offer, but it’s not perfect. I can see some good in the ‘East’ – wherever that is, and I’m on the same side of the world as you – along with some bad. Do we have a ruler around here, anyone? Anyone?)

Yeah, keep beating that strawman! It’s almost down!

You calling this a strawman doesn’t make it so.

It is common knowledge – and I have experienced it personally in my days at schooland uni – that there is a strong bias towards the left wing, towards trendy Post Modernism, Cultural Relativism and Political Correctness.

I do think we need to redress this issue and return education especially in the Humanities and history area to a more balanced focus on the people and events that really mattered. Those dead old white guys – the explorers, the inventors, the kings and leaders, may be uncool but they are (with a few notable exceptions like Queen Elizabeth & Madame Curie) the one’s who had the most significance for making our modern Western civilisation what it is.

In the USA I think kids should focus mainly on what made the USA the USA it is today.

This does not really include the Muslim world to any large extent.

Here’s a challenge for you : name three Muslims who have had a major beneficial affect on our Western civilisation in the past 300 years. Who invented or dicovered or led their nation or military well and wisely in constructive allience with the Western world. I bet you can’t do it!

OTOH, When children are studying history in Muslim nations I have no problem with them focusing on Islam and how it has affected their societies.

In both cases, an overview of world history should cover the rise of the Western & European civilisations at the expense of the regressing, stagnant Islamic world.

They were the dominant power in Europe and the Near East, politically and scientifically, from around the end of the Roman empire to the Renaissance.

The Renaissance was four centuries ago.

Even then while Islam was a threat to European civilisation it wasn’t exactly a dominant power although they did control parts of Spain and menace the gates of Vienna. Essentially, they were antagonists to civilisation and not bringers of it; a large threat but not quite as severe as the Mongol hordes or the barbarians who brought down Rome. On the positive side, I’ll grant you they managed to keep some of the Greek records and philosophies alive and pass them along to Europe – but the Arabs themselves did precious little with them. Science as we know it today was a western idea.

If we were to exclude the role of Islam in the world,

This is NOT what I’m arguing for! Talk of strawmen, sheesh.

Teach Islam briefly where necessary and where it touches on our civilisation, sure. But let’s not focus too much on it and let’s keep it in perspective. Oh and especially let’s not overlook Islam’s negatives such as jihads, burkas, “honour killings” and terrorism for the sake of being Politically Correct.

Also, how do you reconcile the beliefs that hold that people of other religions are somehow inferior (at best) or “going to hell” at worst?

People can find strength and acceptance in lots of different ways and places. To say that this has to be done under the auspices of some “religious” guidance is just plain wrong.

Your personal beliefs are your own. If everyone respected the beliefs of others, things would be much different today. Instead, we have a very small minority of fundamentalist morons who ruin it for the rest of us.

Be angry and VOTE.

Gary 7

“I feel like education is one of those areas where a direct democracy doesn’t work.”

Be careful what you wish for. If you don’t like this system where people we’ve elected are screwing things up I’m sure you won’t like when people you have no control over screw things up. At least in the current system the people have a way to correct it.

I hope every member of the SBOE who voted for this resolution, though it’s non-binding, is thrashed in the next election.

“Are these people still the same species as we are?”

Don’t know about you, but I mutated a long time ago,so, at least as far as I’m concerned the answer would be,,,NO!

Gary 7

Does anyone really think that public schools in Texas were spending ANY time teaching about Islam? This is Texas people… earlier this year the SBoE took Thomas Jefferson out of the curriculum because he was too liberal. I’d love to see the data showing that anything involving Islam or Mid-East studies was ever mentioned in a Texas classroom, unless it involved how scary the terrorists are.

Every day I get a little more embarrassed about being from Texas, and a little more embarrassed about being from the United States.

This is from The Houston Chronicle

This is from the side bar (so readers don’t have to read the entire article).

HE ASSERTIONS

The resolution asserts that in some social studies textbooks nationwide there are, in its words:

Patterns of pejoratives toward Christians and superlatives toward Muslims, calling Crusaders aggressors, “violent attackers,” or “invaders” while euphemizing Muslim conquest of Christian lands as “migrations” by “empire builders.”

Politically correct whitewashes of Islamic culture and stigmas on Christian civilization, indicting Christianity for the same practices (e.g., sexism, slavery, persecution of out-groups) that they treat non-judgmentally, minimize, sugarcoat, or censor in Islam.

Sanitized definitions of “jihad” that exclude religious intolerance or military aggression against non-Muslims … which undergirds worldwide Muslim terrorism.

These are some lines from the article itself

The resolution contends that current textbooks glorify Islam with “superlatives” while downsizing Christianity with “pejoratives.”

Barbara Cargill, R-The Woodlands, said the resolution is needed “to ensure that all religious groups are treated equally and fairly .”

“For example,” she said, “many textbooks devote line after line to the massacre of Muslims, but censor Muslim massacres of other religious groups.”

This is what I found most interesting

The books cited in the resolution currently are not used in Texas schools, Diskey said.

Apparently, because the books (from 1999) could still be used, then they are “dangerous.”

For the full article

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/7203033.html

So why play-up and unduly emphaisise Islamic culture & history

What makes you think they “unduly emphaisise Islamic culture & history”? You readily admit that their decision to downplay evolution, and therefore their reasons for doing so, were baloney. Why are you so quick to trust the same peoples’ word on this? Is it because one goes against your biases and one supports your biases? Since they used such terrible reasoning and arguments before, I am disinclined to trust them now.

If I thought they were right, I would be all for what they are doing. I am totally opposed to a decision to “play-up and unduly emphaisise Islamic culture & history”, and in fact the liberal and moderate conservative members of the boards took the same position. However, I am also opposed to the decision to “play-down and unduly exclude Islamic culture & history”.

These people are known to be dishonest, manipulative, and pushing a particular religious agenda. Given that, I am not going to accept their claims at face value.

when it is really more a side issue; far less significant to making us who we are and has contributed so little in the way of new ideas and scientific progress?

Islam had an immense impact on our culture and had a huge amount of new ideas and scientific progress. They were the dominant power in Europe and the Near East, politically and scientifically, from around the end of the Roman empire to the Renaissance. They also had huge cultural impacts on the West. After the Renaissance Europe took over, both because Europe moved forward and the Muslim world regressed, and in the last 60 years or so America did, but from around 500-1500 A.D. Europe was a backwards, theocratic, fragmented, totalitarian, misogynistic society while the Muslim world was the primary scientific, artistic, and cultural center in the West and Near East. They were far from an ideal society, but they were in much better shape than Europe at the time or shortly thereafter.

What is more, the entire Age of Exploration happened due to competition with Muslims. That was the primary motivating factor for the exploration of Africa and the discovery of the Americas.

If we were to exclude the role of Islam in the world, there would be a 1000-year hole in a history classes were relatively little happened besides a plague and a bunch of in-fighting between small feudal kingdoms. The Crusades would just be a Holy War with no understanding of the underlying political reasons for it. The biggest change in military technology since the development of cavalry, the gun, would just magically appear out of thin air, as would a huge amount of other Renaissance thinking, technology, and architectural techniques. The age of exploration would just be done on a whim, without an understanding of the desire to overcome a then-superior competitor that drove much of it.

The fact that you are not aware of this is exactly the reason why this sort of education is needed.

you may prefer a history text book and course that ignored the explorers and inventors in favour of bitter feminist man-bashing or indigneous tribe “noble savage” worshipping.

Yeah, keep beating that strawman! It’s almost down!

Its not like those who really want tostudy islam for whatever reason are prevented from doing so if the rest of tehclas sarent getting it rammed down their throats is it?

If they are taught other cultures aren’t important, why would they waste time learning about them? By your logic, why should we have history class, or any other class, at all? People can just learn on their own.