And most of them aren’t patented, so there are multiple sources that compete on price.

If everyone stopped taking vaccines, drug company profits would soar. All those sick people use a lot more medicine.

The kind of drug that makes a pharamceutical CEO’s eyes light up with dollar signs is a new blood pressure pill. Or some other drug that is taken daily by many many people for many many years. Something that’s a temporary treatment, not a golden-bullet cure.

There are lots of perverse incentives in the pharmaceutical industry, but huge profits generated by vaccines (other than new single-source ones like Gardasil) are purely imaginary.

I trust the science behind vaccines, but NOT the giant corporations.

So isn’t it lucky for all of us that the medicines industry is the most tightly regulated industry the world over?

I work at a site that carries out contract manufacture of biopharmaceuticals, mostly for clinical trials. The FDA and the UK’s MHRA both have the power to shut us down in an instant. We are regularly inspected for compliance to ensure that what we produce is fit to be injected into people.

But knowledge is not perfect, and never can be.

This is why clinical trials occur in three phases (phase I for safety in a small number of healthy volunteers; phase II for efficacy and safety in patients; and phase III to get some better statistical power on the efficacy and safety in patients).

If Scientists and Doctors ran the show and weren’t in a position of getting ruined by some big company blacklisting them or choking their insurance payments, vaccines would be a good thing.

Eh?

Who do you think carries out the R&D in those big companies? Scientists, all of whom believe they are seeking something that will either save or improve people’s lives.

Who do you think carries out those clinical trials? Doctors, all of whom believe they are testing something that has real potential to save or improve people’s lives.

Who do you think carries out the regulatory inspections? Scientists and doctors, all of whom believe they are checking that the candidate treatments will really do what is claimed, and with minimal risk to the patient.

Where is the blacklisting?

But we’ve seen both an inflation of the things they want kids and adults vaccinated for

Yes. What of it?

Given that vaccination is the single most successful medical intervention ever discovered, why should scientists and drug companies not investigate vaccines for diseases for which no vaccine currently exists?

And when a new vaccine is discovered, why should doctors NOT then propagate these vaccines to their patients? Why should governments NOT recommend that these vaccines are administered?

and the manufacture of these has been largely outsourced, notably to escape wage, labor, safety, standards, etc.

Rubbish.

If a plant in India (say) manufactures medicines to be used in the USA, it must still submit to inspection and audit by the FDA. If it manufactures medicine for the UK, it must still submit to inspection and audit by the MHRA. And so on.

Wages may be lower in the developing world, and therefore money may be saved by relocating an operation there, but safety standards cannot be compromised without risking the loss of the licence to sell the stuff being made.

A corporation is literally an organization built to avoid responsibility, save making money for it’s investors the next three months.

Kind of. But this does not mean that all corporations behave this way. It may surprise you to learn that corporations employ people, and these people have consciences.

They drain wells dry, ruining and starving people to death in India to make soda that’s then shipped (tax subsidized) to the USA to cheat wage/labor laws.

What has this to do with vaccines?

. . . These vaccine companies have a guaranteed market,

No, they don’t, because there’s more than one company making vaccines, and they are subject to regulation. None of them has a guaranteed market for their product. Any one of them could be shut down by the regulators for failing to comply with the relevant standards (incidentally, the standards are collectively known as Good Manufacturing Practice, and the full set of them is a stack of books about 3 feet high).

guaranteed profit

Not guaranteed, because they can always be undercut by a competitor.

and they have their own kangaroo court literally a “Vaccine Court” that handles when their poisons kill people.

This is a childish caricature of the reality of this court.

Without the court (I don’t recall its official title), the risk to a company considering the manufacture of vaccines for use in the USA is too great. The court exists to both ensure that anyone adversely affected by a vaccine receives compensation and to ensure that the compensation payment is not crippling to the vaccine manufacturer. Interestingly, it has the lowest standards for evidence in any court anywhere.

Cases awarded in this court would often not be awarded in an actual criminal court due to inadequate evidence. So, is this court a good thing or a bad thing?

That’s a recipe for the worst of the worst corruption.

Do you have any evidence that the court is corrupt?

Do you think a big corporate CEO would hesitate even a SECOND between pouring some toxic poison into a batch of vaccine to extend the dose if his ONLY goal is profit and he faces no consequence?

And do you think for a second that his QC department would let him get away with it?

In fact, in pretty much any plant making medicines, the execs are not allowed into the plant. Not for any philosophical reason, but because their role does not involve being trained in the procedures required to enter a cleanroom environment.

Likewise, is he going to give any real scientist a say in “This will work/this will kill and sicken people” if it interfered with the profit margin?

How can any company exec prevent a scientist from saying this?

In the short term, it is kinda doable, because you hear of clinical trials where the result is undesirable going unpublished. But the point is you hear of them. Sooner or later the people whose work went unpublished will tell.

But we’ve seen both an inflation of the things they want kids and adults vaccinated for and the manufacture of these has been largely outsourced, notably to escape wage, labor, safety, standards, etc.

A corporation is literally an organization built to avoid responsibility, save making money for it’s investors the next three months. They drain wells dry, ruining and starving people to death in India to make soda that’s then shipped (tax subsidized) to the USA to cheat wage/labor laws. They give breast milk formula to women in impoverished countries as free samples then when their natural milk dries charge full retail price, starving babies to death for pennies. Oh, how about BP getting a favor from V.P. Cheney so that they didn’t have to buy a new $100K BLOWOUT PREVENTER!?!?!

These vaccine companies have a guaranteed market, guaranteed profit and they have their own kangaroo court literally a “Vaccine Court” that handles when their poisons kill people. That’s a recipe for the worst of the worst corruption. Do you think a big corporate CEO would hesitate even a SECOND between pouring some toxic poison into a batch of vaccine to extend the dose if his ONLY goal is profit and he faces no consequence? Likewise, is he going to give any real scientist a say in “This will work/this will kill and sicken people” if it interfered with the profit margin?

BTW- they are putting Mercury back in vaccines, look it up. The government won’t let individual states block it either. Look it up on Google.

Oh, and look up a cool site; “Chinasmack.com” A recent article of a few days back shows one of vaccines victims. A healthy little baby getting a mandatory vaccine. Looks like some fake rubber “Pickled Punk” now and dead so might as well shove him in a vat of formaldehyde…. And, just like their toxic pet food filler, date r-pe Aqua Dots, pigs feeding off a garbage dump, it’s stuff that’ll likely get shipped straight to the USA. Wonder how many babies in the USA that batch of vaccine will kill when it gets shipped here?

Are estimated by whom?

I have a child with an ASD. I am sick nigh unto death of anti-vax paranoids trying to hide behind her, and other children like her.

We are not antivaccine.

Okay, which vaccines, specifically, are you against and which do you think are okay?

We are for safer vaccines

As someone else mentioned, who isn’t? There’s research going on all the time to work toward making vaccines safer and more effective.

(get the toxins out of them)

Which ones, specifically? When you answer, please also indicate the level at which the supposed toxin becomes toxic.

on a safer schedule

What schedule? Be specific, and provide evidence that supports that the schedule is safer, both in terms of adverse events and risk of infection and serious complications from infection.

mitochondrial testing for mitochondrial disorders of infants when they are born before any vaccines are ever given. Vaccines ARE contraindicated in mitochondrial disorders.

Hey, if you can come up with an accurate (not too many false positives/negatives) and economical test that will be covered by insurance, go for it. Some things to consider, though: mitochondrial disorders are rather uncommon and take many forms; not everyone that has one will ever develop autism, and not all people with autism have a mito disorder. Second, fever is one particular thing that can exacerbate a mitochondrial disorder. Y’know what can cause a fever, often at more serious levels than a vaccine? Infections! So, even if someone does have a mito disorder, it may in fact turn out to be a good idea to vaccinate them to prevent a disease that would make their disorder worse.

There are plenty of mainstream doctors who are questioning the vaccines right now.

How many and upon what basis do they question? If they base it on science, then what studies do they use?

Dr. Sears is one of them.

You mean the Dr. Sears that created his own schedule based on absolutely no science as to whether it is any more effective or safe than the recommended schedule, who recommends that his patients delay and/or skip some vaccines and who, not being able to recognize measles, allowed one of his measles-infected patients to come into his office, infect other children in the waiting area, said to have “a virus” (no testing other than for strep) and be sent on his merry way to start a measles outbreak? That Dr. Sears?

PBMom Says:
June 2nd, 2011 at 6:32 pm

We are not antivaccine. We are for safer vaccines (get the toxins out of them)

What toxins? What is unsafe about current vaccines, besides their known risks?

on a safer schedule

What’s unsafe about the current schedule?

and to push for mitochondrial testing for mitochondrial disorders of infants when they are born before any vaccines are ever given.

How? Nobody knows how to do that yet.

Vaccines ARE contraindicated in mitochondrial disorders.

Yes, they are. And if the technology existed to screen for mitochondrial disorders, then those kids wouldn’t get vaccines or would get them on a different schedule.

Two thirds of the children with autism are estimated to have mitochondrial disorders.

Citation needed.

No one ever talks about the children who have died getting vaccines, who are permanently brain injured because of the vaccine,

Funny, I hear doctors talk about them, and Phil talks about them right on this web site. That pamphlet your doctor gave you should have mentioned them too.

and the absolute tsunami coming of people with autism that will cost our governments more than you can ever possibly imagine

What does that have to do with this issue? We already know there is no connection between vaccines and autism.

Speaking of Dr Sears (I assume PBMom means Dr Bob, who invented his very own alternative vaccination schedule and published it in a book), exactly how is publicly flaunting the American Academy of Pediatrics vaccine recommendations for profit considered “mainstream”?

This is silly to blame it all on antivaccine movement. My brother and I were vaccinated for Measles and we both contracted a very bad case. My child was vaccinated against Chickenpox still got it. Vaccines are intended to provide protection, but I don’t think they as well for some.

No-one ever claimed vaccines were 100.00% effective. Even if they are only 99.99% effective, you’ll still have a few people who are susceptible despite being vaccinated. This is why herd immunity is important. Once enough people are immune to a disease, there is no longer a reservoir from which susceptible individuals can be infected.

The antivax movement has had a measureable impact on the proportion of the population getting their kids vaccinated. Thus, in some places, there are enough unprotected individuals that an infectious agent can return to being endemic.

Also, polio would have been eradicated globally about 10 or 15 years ago were it not for the activities of antivax activists in Nigeria at the time.

We are not antivaccine.

Who’s “we”?

‘Cos it certainly looks like figureheads such as Jenny McC are pretty much against a great many vaccines. If that’s not “anti-vaccine”, then what is it? Anti-medicine? Anti-health? Anti-responsibility?

We are for safer vaccines

Who isn’t?

Ultimately, though, if you are faced with a reasonably-safe-but-without-zero-risk vaccine, or the prospect of a disease such as pertussis making a widespread comeback, the answer really is a no-brainer.

Do you, for example, expect vaccines to come with no risks at all?

If that is the case, do you also advocate no risks in other areas of public life, such as roads, playgrounds, government buildings etc. If not, why not?

(get the toxins out of them)

What toxins would these be then? Be specific. Do you actually have any idea what you are talking about, or are you merely parroting what the figureheads have been saying?

on a safer schedule,

Such as what?

You seem unaware of the fact that a vaccination schedule entails balancing risks against one another. On the one hand, you have the risk of adverse reaction to the vaccine, while on the other you have the risk of the disease against which the vaccine protects. Don’t forget, too, that when it comes to the prevention of communicable diseases, you are not merely considering your own child’s health, but that of all other people with whom that child comes into contact.

and to push for mitochondrial testing for mitochondrial disorders of infants when they are born before any vaccines are ever given.

Hey, if your health insurance covers this for your child, you go for it. If not, then you have a cost / benefit analysis to conduct.

Vaccines ARE contraindicated in mitochondrial disorders.

Go on, then, let’s have a link to the evidence. Perhaps you could direct us to the randomised trials that have shown this to be so. Or better still, the Cochrane Institute’s summary of meta-analyses. You are making a very clear claim here, that goes against established medical practice. Do you not think you should back it up with some evidence?

Two thirds of the children with autism are estimated to have mitochondrial disorders.

So?

There are plenty of mainstream doctors who are questioning the vaccines right now.

What proportion?

How many doctors are there in the USA? And of them, how many are questioning “the vaccines”? What form does this “questioning” take? Are they supported by evidence or merely jumping on the Wakefield bandwagon? (Remember that Wakefield has been struck off in the UK because his study was unethical, and he made up the results, and he had an undeclared conflict of interest.) Is this proportion of doctors significant or just a bunch of less-than-excellent docs hoping to increase their customer base?

Dr. Sears is one of them.

So?

No one ever talks about the children who have died getting vaccines,

Wrong, the FDA will have details of this. That’s how they compute the risks.

And, IIUC, the risk of dying from a vaccination is very very low (if not vanishingly small). If it were not, the vaccine entailing the high risk would be withdrawn. This is one of the reasons the FDA exists in the first place.

Just because a risk is non-zero, however, does not mean it is not worth taking. Or have you never heard of polio?

who are permanently brain injured because of the vaccine,

Has anyone ever been brain-injured because of a vaccine? If you think yes, then perhaps you can summarise for us the randomised double-blind study that proved it.

and the absolute tsunami coming of people with autism that will cost our governments more than you can ever possibly imagine.

Yes. Strangely, the people who are investigating causes of autism are spending their time looking for the real causes, rather than wasting their time on vaccines that have been shown not to cause autism.

There are always two sides to ever story.

Not true. Stories about facts have only one side – the truth. In this case, the truth is that vaccination has saved more human lives than any other invention or dscovery in human history.

The magical balance fairy has entered the room.

My brother and I were vaccinated for Measles and we both contracted a very bad case.

I had an uncle who smoked five packs of cigarettes every day since he was 14 years old. He died at the age of 102 after falling down some stairs.
Based on this personal anecdote, it would be scientific to conclude…what exactly?

Vaccines are intended to provide protection, but I don’t think they as well for some.

All this new-fangled sciency talk about cancer and tobacco..well…(shrug) what about my uncle, eh? The global medical science community doesn’t know everything. I dare to question and make up my own mind. So there.

Then there’s my poor old grandmother.
Sad story.
She foolishly wore one of those seatbelts as she was driving her car. Her car went off a cliff into the sea and SHE DROWNED because the seatbelt catch got jammed shut!
Seatbelts? Humph. More like “deathbelts” if you ask me.

We are not antivaccine. We are for safer vaccines…

I hear you. Oh how I hear you. I’m not anti-seatbelt or anything. I’m just in favour of safer seatbelts. Keep them out of cars until they can be proven really safe.

The plural of anecdote is not evidence.

Since you’re not anti-vaccine, please name the vaccines that you are in favor of.

These diseases are not trivial!

NY State has started to run TV ads that highlight this problem. It shows a mother talking how
she had to explain to her daughter why her ill brother would not be around anymore.
I don’t know if the lady is an actor or a “real person.”

My older daughter graduates from high school next week and my younger brother is coming. While we’re really excited to see him, he & his wife (mostly his wife) do not believe in vaccinations and I have a horrible fear that he may take it or something equally awful home to my beautiful nephews.

I also finally got up the courage to read Dana’s story, which made me physically ill, as well as breaking my heart. I actually held it together until they said her brother helped carry her coffin. I really think if more people knew this story, their eyes may open just enough to see reason. I like to think so anyway.

I’d would just like to state that biowarfare against children is *NOT* the official skeptical response to the anti-vaxxers. Thank you. That is all.

As it dawns upon them the horror that their wanton ignorance has unleashed upon the world, they will look up to us with streaming tears and desperately shout, “Save us!”

And Homeland Security will show up pretty quickly.

And we will look down upon them and whisper, “No.”

Dude, even Rorschach never advocated attacking the innocent.

Nonsense!

Winning!

Personally – documented in my baby book & verified by my mother – I caught every disease I was vaccinated for – try having Measels, Mumps & Rubella (German Measels) all at the same time….. I survived it but always made sure that my Drs & kids’ pediatrician knew about the circumstances – just in case something similar happened to my kids.