I believe that history needs to be written with a successor to the Hubble. When you mentioned that no matter what (unless your a hermit for Life) you always contribute to history . . . the broader history if only. I believe that Hubble has contributed more to what will be history (in terms of . . . perceptions) than any other invention or instrument ever. I know you were talking about people when shaping history and importantly how ALL of us take a part in that shaping; but in this case what the Hubble does “to” people is on such a fundamentally basic scientific level that it must continue. It is simply too overwhelming to look into the sky and See All that there is to see. Many people are changed forever from one photograph. Many many people. I ll keep my head up and my mind positive

Cheers David C

ps my family is from the London Docks, Southwark (500+ years of bad history there) and in a class ridden system, we looked up to the East Enders as something to aspire to LOL forget the Toffs in the West End of London; Goerings “Demolition Co.” aka the Luftwaffe did us a favour by getting us kicked out

The world is so relative. My perspectives are so limited.

Here I am now, wondering how the whole deal works; so that I can understand what happens to quite possibly the greatest telescope ever built, & I am relying on others to inform me of the process from which I have ducked and hid from my entire Life. I feel…like working harder.

Its hard right here to say anything intelligent or useful, especially while having a horrid understanding of what I know about this apparently quite evident portion of the American Government and its relation to NASA and the telescope. I have a disgustingly bad understanding of politics in America, of how democracy actually works, or what the rules of different parts of a democracy are. In fact, my mind is so vividly imaginative I did not even register that the Senate has to bring something to the Congress. But that makes sense a little now in remembering all the fussing and fighting from various spectrums throughout my Life. And the explanations make sense when you actually pay attention to them.

There is something which literally beckons my mind away from going down that “particular” area of the understanding and learning of the fundamentals of politics. There is an immediate instinctual suppression of any sensory input that comes through me in the form of politics that i just let it flow through without hindering my step in the slightest or paying 2 cents attention to what or why or how the Senate, The Congress, The House of Representatives or even the local levels work. I listen to the president, i listen to mayors and senators and i listen to some news but its more to gauge them as people by reading their demeanor and registering their quarks if you will, I don’t pretend to myself to know “whats really going on”.

I am positive I know exactly why i stray from politics, that is:

First, because even if i did understand every aspect of the procedures, I still would not know exactly what takes place…probably would not even have a fuzzy picture of what actually takes place. And in my mind that is paramount to wasting time to basically misconceive other peoples notions. Now, you could say the same thing about science that I “will never know ultimately” but I choose the natural world over the “evolutionarily created human workings of things”. Even though technically the Natural World would include everything…but I know what I mean

Second, because people become so passionate about things which they are unsure of, or think they know or think they don’t know. People say the president this…the congress that, this senator this, that mayor this, the speaker this, this corporation that. Look, sure they said this or said that or shot the dude with a shotgun while hunting ducks or sumthin down in Texas but I “really” do not “know” people as well as I think I know them. And you don’t know someone based of what they say. You know them based on what they “DO AND SAY”, and what some of these people and companies “do” and then “say” is outright…………….unbelievable? or horrible.

Thirdly, because I believe there is a huge criminal population which resides within the governments of the World. Both, in America and communist and democratic countries. I believe democracy is better than having no choice, but choosing between red apples or green apples (though a safe bet to have an apple) it is hardly a choice & there is always going to be bad apples. And, I am friends with people who grew up in Russia and at one point in my Life I stayed with a Chinese exchange student so I think i have a good understanding of how “good” it is here in America. Where there is mass money you will find mass corruption though. Currently I have no conceptions or ideas on how to govern a mass of people, and consequently should probably keep my thoughts to myself because of it. However, when some people see ignorance, they actually improve themselves. So, maybe I could serve a purpose here

Fourthly, because there has to be that element of the populace who really are good people but frankly don’t care to try and stop the fight by fighting others. I am truly of the belief that the detrimental will always end themselves and the prosperous will always endure. i.e. bad folks take care of themselves in the long run. A sort of natural selection type deal. Or be good to your neighbor type deal. If i need to fight I will, if I see it I will defend it, but politics is shrouded in secrecy. I cant see who to fight.

I just am having a hard time discerning this:

Is the general aura of the Planet Earth leaning towards compassionate being, or is the aura of the Planet Earth being slowly consumed by massive unending doom. I believe that operations such as the James Webb Space Telescope can have superpower effects on the nature of that battle in the long run. I believe Hubble quite literally “saved” (for lack of a better word) many people from just thinking Life was not worth being here for.

And I have a personal intimate relation to the JWST. When I first heard of it as a replacement for the Hubble back in 2008 or 2009 and they announced the original launch date I made a pact with myself to be “there” on that “day” of the “launch” holding my certificates of completion for the Oceanography program from the University of Washington, as a testament to myself and so that I could tell my children i was actually “there” when they launched it. I dropped out of school after holding a 4.0 for just 2 years due to not being able to use my writing hand, and the JWST has yet to be launched. I still would have had some time. I still have time to make my dreams come true and still coincide it with the launch of this telescope (ha). I know it may be silly, but its the truth. I actually had the hand-written date of the launch and my studies all timed out and signed by me with my father as a witness that I would be there at the launch with my degrees of completion. (how naive)

My car was stolen by some “addicts” i think while I was homeless going to school and all my journals and that “note 2 self with launch date and studies completion” were taken and probably burned. But I never forgot. And that is what matters.

I have said some ignorant things looking over this gigananormous post. I do not necessarily know how to phrase things any different or if I should. Part of me just wants to delete everything but the first paragraph. But there it is. I can only hope that it helps someone find the truth or be less ignorant or understand that there are people like this in the world. It is an odd thing to blog. Despite my promises at getting better, I just digressed. But this is old news now and perhaps it wont be read.

{Hey Brother, I’m retired, in Canada, in the region North of Niagara Falls, and I get by on 8000 a year, give or take a dollar, where the cost of living says I should get by on 25,000}
Presser, is modern speech for Press Conference, whether video or audio;
Not sure who WE are, but even less sure who THEY are but “I” don’t trust them any more than a rabid animal; not that I am a Libertarian (politics is something I gave up on in my 30′s, (read 1970′s) when we were constantly lied to (just as they are doing now) just to get in and stay in power) I have learned to keep my head down and listen to the rails been able to dodge a few train wrecks that way;

-The philosophical basis for the reason for NASA’s being; plays a part, in decisions to “commit indirectly” to the support of funding for various projects? What does it mean when a Senator “commits indirectly”?
What Senators did yesterday, was to take the founding articles upon which NASA was based (it’s constitution if you will) and go back to them for the reasoning for their proposals; To Explorer and Advance Science and Secure Mankind’s (the USA’s Economic and Strategic Security Into the Future; a fancy way to say, “to boldly go”
Senator Hutchinson, in an addendum reply, to a question to Senator Nelson, added that the Committee in a bipartisan statement, upon the above principals pledged to keep the funding for SLS, Commercial Space, and the James Webb Telescope; she would NOT have mentioned the latter if it wasn’t agreed upon to fund it; as well, it was a message to the Congress, not to monkey around with the Senate Committee, and THIS ranking member who is head of the Committee writing the budget for the Senate, and will take it to the Joint Congressional Committee for reconciliation with the House Budget, and you can expect a fight; it isn’t over, but this Senator, is looking at it from the standpoint of her last term, and her legacy (read child, and as anyone knows, you don’t come between a mother and child

and as predicted:

Article: Space dot Com
Senate Panel Restores James Webb Space Telescope Funding
Dan Leone, Space News
Date: 16 September 2011 Time: 10:32 AM ET
WASHINGTON — A U.S. Senate panel has proposed giving NASA’s James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) about $150 million more for 2012 than the White House requested for the over budget project, which appropriators in the House of Representatives voted this summer to cancel.

The additional funding for JWST amounts to a 40 percent increase for the project and is part of a 2012 spending bill approved Sept. 14 by the Senate Appropriations commerce, justice, science subcommittee. Overall, the subcommittee’s bill would provide NASA with a total of $17.9 billion for 2012. That is about $500 million less than the agency got for 2011 and $800 million less than what U.S. President Barack Obama sought for NASA in the 2012 budget request he sent Congress in February.

The Webb telescope, which was marked for cancellation in the $16.8 billion NASA spending bill the House Appropriations Committee approved in July, would receive $530 million next year under the Senate’s bill — about 40 percent more than the $374 million the Obama administration included for the project in its 2012 request. [Spectacular Hubble Telescope Photos]

I know I haven’t answered all your questions, and in a lot of ways, I think we have a lot in common with regards to age and the way we think about the past and future; would be interesting to yak with you over a bottle of home made wine or mead;

all I can say for now is,

Cheers,

live long and prosper young grass hopper
and you’ll see that the best is yet to come;

Dave

So I will have to agree here for some QuietDesperation.

I know people don’t all have the same values.

I know people draw vastly different conclusions even from the same set of sensory input, let alone being in different places at different times!

I personally know people who don’t care, in general about happenings, or futures or the worlds or anything. I know people who don’t care about themselves.

By the way I really did want to delete the “we still haven’t figured out their game well enough to put a stop to it” comment immediately after I read it. I really wanted to delete some other things i have said, simply because it is impractical and wrong to bring up certain things in certain places. I am working on it. I still cannot locate the rules for this blog and it is driving me crazy.

“I” STILL HAVENT FIGURED OUT THEIR GAME WELL ENOUGH TO PUT A STOP TO IT!!!

OMG, that sounds even worse, and I wish I could delete it. But there is an “I” at least. There might not be a GAME or a THEIR but I know there is an “I”.

I hope I at least make you smile, perhaps even laugh.
“WE” have to stay positive though.

There is no “we.” Other people don’t value the same things you do, and come to different conclusions. They *want* the government to coddle them and they don’t give a tinker’s cuss how it happens or what affect that has on the world or the future.

So in getting the JWST sound, safe and functional requires teams of people to come up with new solutions, new possibilities, updated methods and yet to be proposed generalities, new hind-sight-ical observations in a field with ever increasing variables and ever increasing fields of research. The difficulties are extremely tested over had coffee over, theorized and argued, voted, vetoed,vetted and betted over, chatted over and discussed over and briefed over dined over wined over and signed over in getting the metrics of the monumental task at hand correct, and in this case… getting the “greatest observatory instrument ever”, possibly the JWST in working order, responsibly above and beyond the clouds.

-anybody think the Large Hadron Collider could deserve that title in comparison to my champion the Hubble, or the electron microscope or any other observatory detection device in history as the “Greatest Observatory Instrument of People”?

63. David C. Says:
September 14th, 2011 at 8:58 am
UPDATE!!
This morning, in a presser regarding the SLS, Senator Kay Hutchinson, committed indirectly to the support of funding for the James Web Telescope; this in part, as a direct result of the philosophical basis for the reason for NASA’s being: To Explore New Environments and bring back the scientific Research and Development benefits to Earth;
there will be fights over the NASA Budget, however, these principals have been accepted by the House and the Senate, in a bipartisan spirit, and while there will be cuts, the SLS, ISS and the JWST, will not be abandoned;
That is the Gist of what she was saying; however, don’t sit on your laurels, we still need to be proactive in the Space Exploration and Science Community; Stick with it, until the job is finally done;
Cheers——-

-The SLS, that is the 320 foot tall Space Launch System, Yes?

-What is a presser?
(a long awaited or belated press release or something?)

-The philosophical basis for the reason for NASA’s being; plays a part, in decisions to “commit indirectly” to the support of funding for various projects? What does it mean when a Senator “commits indirectly”?

-there will be fights over the NASA budget, however these principals have been accepted by the House and Senate.
(which principals? NASA’s philosophical basis for its reason for being?)

(and why is everybody fighting once again?, don’t answer that, it must be 2 or more passionate souls)

A family of four can barely figure out what to have for dinner one night or “where that smell is coming from?”. 8 unhindered cows somewhere where cows are free cannot decide to go left or right or try the clover fields or what they should do with their new found freedom. Some dolphins develop a way to catch fish using tools. Mold is really really old. The records of history give us various “templates” in governing methods. It took all of human history to create the internet. It should be no wonder that three hundred million people cant decide what is ultimately and truly best for itself, both as an individual and as a whole even though it can see smaller and farther away than ever imagined…(brilliance is not without its sense of humor). Let alone 6 or 7 billion.

If the JWST just does prove to be to “difficult” to succeed and other projects would have to suffer as a result from siphoning which has been kinda explained, than I suppose that is a possibility which must be considered. I would survive better knowing which projects exactly took the place of the JWST in hopes that they are just as awe inspiring and important to Humanity (and a better question would be “HOW” could “I” decide what is “the most beneficial projects to undergo in the name of humanity”). I would survive in knowing that some day it will most likely hopefully happen for future generations, and I would survive knowing that I just missed out on the greatest show in the Universe, while simultaneously being part of the greatest show.

The WSJ and the Orlando Sentinel articles were based on a leaked “preliminary” worst case scenario paper, that the Congress Presser spoke about and may be investigating for charges of sabotage; it was what spurred them in the past two days to push the WH and NASA to come clean with their reports which were ready and refused to release to the people, only those within congress, like Senators Hutchinson and Nelson, with the proviso that they not divulge the information; this information is on the record, check the Congress web site for the archived video; as well, the JWST is not to be defunded as I pointed out earlier, but of course no one cares to listen, just to push their rants;

…Under the whole JWST debate are lots of political shenanigans that you or I will never even know about.—

I do not wish to dwell on the “you or I will never even know about”, because it is just a part of Life, but it sure is sad that we are to never know how “elected officials and power people” play out their days. Its one thing to not understand how fusion can be harnessed, or if a rock is made of calcite, or if ghosts are real but these are real people doing real things affecting HUMANITY and WE STILL HAVENT FIGURED OUT THEIR GAME WELL ENOUGH TO PUT A STOP TO IT!!! it is a sad outrage.

What I would like to focus on is the incredible passion with which reasonable people forge through seemingly vast and empty holes and pits of “unreasonableness”. For all the ones who continue to press the issues and find the answers amid the maelstrom of fraud and greed and insane priority making decisions I thank you.

A side note to reading this blog: (to define reasonable is probably the most important discussion on any field, for it appears parties as well as individuals have a tough time if not impossible time determining “just what is reasonable”.)

Messier Tidy Upper said:

–After all, a Space Telescope is worth a thousand times to Humanity what any President or Congress could deliver!—

If i were on my deathbed…I would want to see some pictures from outer space…just one more time, perhaps before or after being with my family. I think, I would want them to look with me, at the marvelousness of the observable nature of things. In fact, I know I would.

Nobody had a clue what was out there. Nobody could have guessed. I wish it were simple enough that private funding could handle it. I survive off of 200$a month and I am willing to give 5 of it a month for Life to the JWST.

In my naivety I hope there are other programs going as I think were mentioned in this blog which will continue to explore. They cant stop the explorers. They can only wish to get them caught up in their bs game of “HOW TO RUN A GOVERNMENT” and still make a ton of money for certain individuals and masses.

Explorers, I got your back from the get go. And so do all the young and impressionable minds wondering what deck of cards the Universe is really playing with.

Hmm. Doesn’t have the same ring, does it?

Cost estimate: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/space/os-nasa-rocket-plan-20110914,0,3595313.story

Cheers

Dave

(BTW. Why do some people still insist on the weary old zero-sum fallacy nonsense that we are obliged to choose either manned or unmanned space exploration when we are NOT. We can and are best off doing *BOTH* and having these programs work together – they are complementary to each other NOT in competition with each other! Sigh.

Because, in the current climate it is a zero sum game.

Re Cheyenne @ #42

It would appear that Mr. Messier and Dr. Plait and others in these parts who claim that Bob Park and, by extension, Steven Weinberg don’t know what they are talking about don’t think it’s so obvious.

Isn’t there any way that NASA cooperates with other space agencies or other countries that are ready to pay for the project? Maybe someone should suggest that to them!

Ahh, if I just had enough money (billions), I would have given it all for the JWST! It’s a new hope, a new door towards a better understanding of our cosmos.
They can’t just kill JWST, I just won’t handle seeing all this hope goes away!

While this argument is often cited, it is not true. I will reiterate what I have said before on the topic. If the program is cancelled, the entirety of program funding is not “wasted.” The work already done on JWST has revolutionized the technological capabilities to manufacture ultralightweight beryllium mirrors and the techniques to perform phase control on multiple mirror systems, as well as numerous technological advances in lightweight structures and deployment. Much of the money spent on JWST went towards developing and maturing enabling technologies. These technologies only exist now because of the money spent on the program. That money is not lost, the technologies have been invented and refined and are a part of the total benefit the program provides. In addition, contrary to popular belief, cancelling the program does not mean putting $3.5B of hardware on a shelf to collect dust. A large portion of that money has gone to keep scientists, engineers, and vendors employed, returning the money to the economy.

Planetary Society gathered 20,000 signatures

Ooooo! They can buy that many votes back home with just the promise of more handouts.

The biggest problem I see with the JWST is that there is only one being built – that’s a hell of a lot of money riding on a flying bomb.

Agreed. The very worst case scenario is that the JWST is built at the expense of other NASA programs then the rocket launching it blows up or it turns out to have a problem post-launch as unlike Hubble it cannot be fixed in orbit.

Still, that is worst case and the odds of it happening are .. what? Pretty small really?

Especially versus the enormous benefits if it all works as planned.

Still I’d be much happier if there were two or more of them under construction – and if we had a manned spacecraft capable of reaching and repairing them should something go wrong.

(BTW. Why do some people still insist on the weary old zero-sum fallacy nonsense that we are obliged to choose either manned or unmanned space exploration when we are NOT. We can and are best off doing *BOTH* and having these programs work together – they are complementary to each other NOT in competition with each other! Sigh. )

It is just so infuriating the way the funding system doesn’t work and NASA gets next to nothing – but is still falsely singled out by ignorant clueless people as supposedly “wasting money” when so much more money gets wasted far more badly for far less benefit.

Instead of Congress cancelling funding for the JWST and NASA generally maybe it should be Congress that gets cancelled and abolished and the funding it wastes put into the James Webb Space Telescope and NASA instead? I know which is more useful, more beneficial to Humanity generally and the US particularly and better able to deliver and it ain’t the politicians!

*****

“I think the human race has no future if it doesn’t go into space.”
- Stephen Hawking, 8th January 2007 – interviewed before taking a zero-gravity flight.

“But out of the whirlwind came a silent bird from the stars, a symbol of our ability to work with nature, to use our intelligence and within the limitations of our world, to do great things.”
- David Levy on witnessing the 4th landing of the Space Shuttle Columbia, Page 28, ‘Astronomy’ magazine October 1982.

“We had our hands on spaceships and we learned how to make them increasingly safer and then Washington pulled the plug. … One half of one percent of the federal budget funds NASA and they can’t afford this program?” [Emphasis added.]
- Gregory Cecil, Space Shuttle tile technician quoted on page 47, “Throttle down” article in ‘Air & Space’ magazine, Nov 2010.

Cheers
Dave

The war in Afghanistan and the JWST are both money pits, and whatever money is already sunk into them is money we are never getting back. What *needs* to be looked at then is what value is being added by each endeavor. The JWST stands to add enormous value; besides the obvious scientific value, it will put people to work finishing its construction, preparing to launch it, launching it, and then maintaining it and analyzing whatever data it gathers. Beyond looking into the IR spectrum, it will allow us to better find and identify exoplanets, and even learn more about our own solar system. The war in Afghanistan does not stand to add any value except to the military-industrial complex in the form of more weapons we don’t need and more violence we don’t want, at the cost of a lot of unnecessarily dead American infantrymen. It’s also going to cost a lot more over five years than the JWST while, again, adding no value except to a tiny fraction.

The choice there should be a clear one. *Should* be.