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	<title>Comments on: Hey, I can see my snow-covered house from here!</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/02/06/hey-i-can-see-my-snow-covered-house-from-here/</link>
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		<title>By: sHx</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/02/06/hey-i-can-see-my-snow-covered-house-from-here/#comment-322799</link>
		<dc:creator>sHx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 18:50:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=44293#comment-322799</guid>
		<description>@Messier Tidy Upper #29

Yes, MTU, I am aware that we&#039;ve had a double dip La Nina in the last year and half. The current La Nina has peaked and the climate models predict it will return to ENSO-neutral conditions by May.

And that&#039;s as far as they can predict with some reliability. After May, the ensemble of climate models looks like a jumbled mess, or a spaghetti graph. We don&#039;t know, for example, whether by next year this time we&#039;ll be in El Nino, La Nina or ENSO neutral conditions.

(WUWT has a reference page for ENSO which has all the latest graphs and figures. The graph I&#039;m talking about is &quot;NINO 3.4 Ensemble Forecast&quot; the second one from the top here:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/reference-pages/enso/)

Although climate models used for ENSO cannot reliably forecast conditions 12 months ahead (or even 6 months ahead), in terms of probability alone, a triple dip La Nina is less likely than a return to El Nino.

We are however in the so-called negative phase of Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO), which is a pattern similar to ENSO but works on multi-decadal scale. When the PDO is in warm (positive) phase, El Ninos are stronger and more frequent than La Ninas. When the PDO is in cool (negative) phase, the reverse happens.

I don&#039;t agree that cool and wet weather for five years in a row will prove either global warming or global cooling. Five years of similar weather would not necessarily signal a permanent regime change for it could well be a multi-decadal natural variation. After a decade of below average rainfall in Australia, many people claimed that drought was now the new norm in this continent in a globally warming world. That&#039;s why those (now useless) desalination plants were built.

BTW, according to the Bureau of Meteorology, the two years from 1 January 2010 to 31 December 2011 was the second wettest two years in a row on record in Australia (1973/74 have the highest rainfall figures). If we get another wet and cool 2012, or a triple dip La Nina, perhaps then the CAGW (with all its predictions of permanent regime shifts) will be out, and the natural fluctuations of PDO will be in as the major driver of climate.

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/current/statements/scs38.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Messier Tidy Upper #29</p>
<p>Yes, MTU, I am aware that we&#8217;ve had a double dip La Nina in the last year and half. The current La Nina has peaked and the climate models predict it will return to ENSO-neutral conditions by May.</p>
<p>And that&#8217;s as far as they can predict with some reliability. After May, the ensemble of climate models looks like a jumbled mess, or a spaghetti graph. We don&#8217;t know, for example, whether by next year this time we&#8217;ll be in El Nino, La Nina or ENSO neutral conditions.</p>
<p>(WUWT has a reference page for ENSO which has all the latest graphs and figures. The graph I&#8217;m talking about is &#8220;NINO 3.4 Ensemble Forecast&#8221; the second one from the top here:<br />
<a href="http://wattsupwiththat.com/reference-pages/enso/" rel="nofollow">http://wattsupwiththat.com/reference-pages/enso/</a>)</p>
<p>Although climate models used for ENSO cannot reliably forecast conditions 12 months ahead (or even 6 months ahead), in terms of probability alone, a triple dip La Nina is less likely than a return to El Nino.</p>
<p>We are however in the so-called negative phase of Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO), which is a pattern similar to ENSO but works on multi-decadal scale. When the PDO is in warm (positive) phase, El Ninos are stronger and more frequent than La Ninas. When the PDO is in cool (negative) phase, the reverse happens.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t agree that cool and wet weather for five years in a row will prove either global warming or global cooling. Five years of similar weather would not necessarily signal a permanent regime change for it could well be a multi-decadal natural variation. After a decade of below average rainfall in Australia, many people claimed that drought was now the new norm in this continent in a globally warming world. That&#8217;s why those (now useless) desalination plants were built.</p>
<p>BTW, according to the Bureau of Meteorology, the two years from 1 January 2010 to 31 December 2011 was the second wettest two years in a row on record in Australia (1973/74 have the highest rainfall figures). If we get another wet and cool 2012, or a triple dip La Nina, perhaps then the CAGW (with all its predictions of permanent regime shifts) will be out, and the natural fluctuations of PDO will be in as the major driver of climate.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/current/statements/scs38.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/current/statements/scs38.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Messier Tidy Upper</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/02/06/hey-i-can-see-my-snow-covered-house-from-here/#comment-322798</link>
		<dc:creator>Messier Tidy Upper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 05:35:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=44293#comment-322798</guid>
		<description>Its worth stressing I think that Global Overheating is a&lt;b&gt; global&lt;/b&gt; phenomenon - not just &lt;b&gt;regional.&lt;/b&gt; Different regions may react in different ways but the overall trend is definitely for hotter rather than cooler conditions despite what you may read intheMurdoch media.

 See :

http://www.skepticalscience.com/December-2009-record-cold-spells.htm

There  is also this rational explanation for why the European climate has had a few unusally cool winters :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_lYbp2zxVg&amp;list=PL029130BFDC78FA33&amp;index=21&amp;feature=plpp_video

@20.   sHx :

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt; Here in the eastern half of Australia, we are having another year without a summer. Sydney has been cloudy and rainy almost every day. Since the beginning of the summer, we have had only a few warm and sunny spells. Floods are again causing havoc, though fortunately with fewer loss of life. According to climate scientists, rain and floods was exactly what climate models predicted.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

But Adelaide, here in South Australia where I live, has had one of its hottest starts to the New Year ever this year and had quite a heatwave a week or so ago. Plus you&#039;re forgetting that last year - and the start of this year - have been affected by the La Nina*-ENSO  climate pattern. With 2011 the hottest La Nina year on record. See :

http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2011/1129/Climate-change-2011-temperatures-the-hottest-ever-during-La-Nina

Among other places.

If it stays as cool and wet for say &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;*five*&lt;/i&gt; years in a row&lt;/b&gt;, if we don&#039;t have any more El Nino years that driver global abverage tenmperature sto new heights then I will  concede you have a point.

But *one* regional summer, even two that are somewhat cooler than average are just noise especially when youlook at teh bigger global picture and teh longer term one time~wise. The last decades have been the hottest on record when Co2 levels are at their highest on record. Co-incidence?

-----------------

* Click on my name to see NASA discussing the La Nina phenomenon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Its worth stressing I think that Global Overheating is a<b> global</b> phenomenon &#8211; not just <b>regional.</b> Different regions may react in different ways but the overall trend is definitely for hotter rather than cooler conditions despite what you may read intheMurdoch media.</p>
<p> See :</p>
<p><a href="http://www.skepticalscience.com/December-2009-record-cold-spells.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.skepticalscience.com/December-2009-record-cold-spells.htm</a></p>
<p>There  is also this rational explanation for why the European climate has had a few unusally cool winters :</p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_lYbp2zxVg&#038;list=PL029130BFDC78FA33&#038;index=21&#038;feature=plpp_video" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_lYbp2zxVg&#038;list=PL029130BFDC78FA33&#038;index=21&#038;feature=plpp_video</a></p>
<p>@20.   sHx :</p>
<blockquote><p><i> Here in the eastern half of Australia, we are having another year without a summer. Sydney has been cloudy and rainy almost every day. Since the beginning of the summer, we have had only a few warm and sunny spells. Floods are again causing havoc, though fortunately with fewer loss of life. According to climate scientists, rain and floods was exactly what climate models predicted.</i></p></blockquote>
<p>But Adelaide, here in South Australia where I live, has had one of its hottest starts to the New Year ever this year and had quite a heatwave a week or so ago. Plus you&#8217;re forgetting that last year &#8211; and the start of this year &#8211; have been affected by the La Nina*-ENSO  climate pattern. With 2011 the hottest La Nina year on record. See :</p>
<p><a href="http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2011/1129/Climate-change-2011-temperatures-the-hottest-ever-during-La-Nina" rel="nofollow">http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2011/1129/Climate-change-2011-temperatures-the-hottest-ever-during-La-Nina</a></p>
<p>Among other places.</p>
<p>If it stays as cool and wet for say <b><i>*five*</i> years in a row</b>, if we don&#8217;t have any more El Nino years that driver global abverage tenmperature sto new heights then I will  concede you have a point.</p>
<p>But *one* regional summer, even two that are somewhat cooler than average are just noise especially when youlook at teh bigger global picture and teh longer term one time~wise. The last decades have been the hottest on record when Co2 levels are at their highest on record. Co-incidence?</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;</p>
<p>* Click on my name to see NASA discussing the La Nina phenomenon.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/02/06/hey-i-can-see-my-snow-covered-house-from-here/#comment-322797</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 19:57:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=44293#comment-322797</guid>
		<description>27- Nigel, correct on all counts.

Yes, I&#039;ve lived here 30 years, and it&#039;s like a time warp because with the constant sameness, there doesn&#039;t seem to be a lot to distingish one time interval from another.  But I really love the sun.  I read that Florida isn&#039;t the sunniest 10 places, I guess Yuma, arizona is number one in annual sun hours.  The humidity here punctuates the days mainly in afternoon with thunderstorms.

I&#039;ve been through one tropical storm/ hurricane after another.  They are spooky and cause real human suffering.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>27- Nigel, correct on all counts.</p>
<p>Yes, I&#8217;ve lived here 30 years, and it&#8217;s like a time warp because with the constant sameness, there doesn&#8217;t seem to be a lot to distingish one time interval from another.  But I really love the sun.  I read that Florida isn&#8217;t the sunniest 10 places, I guess Yuma, arizona is number one in annual sun hours.  The humidity here punctuates the days mainly in afternoon with thunderstorms.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been through one tropical storm/ hurricane after another.  They are spooky and cause real human suffering.</p>
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		<title>By: Nigel Depledge</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/02/06/hey-i-can-see-my-snow-covered-house-from-here/#comment-322796</link>
		<dc:creator>Nigel Depledge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 09:44:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=44293#comment-322796</guid>
		<description>@ Jeff (25) -
I&#039;m not sure I could live in Florida, irrespective of how sunny it is most of the time.  Besides, I think I would get bored with weather being the same for long stretches of time.  At least in Britain the weather is never boring.  Dreary, occasionally, but never boring.

Having said that, I guess hurricanes, to which Florida is susceptible IIUC, are the complete opposite of boring.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Jeff (25) -<br />
I&#8217;m not sure I could live in Florida, irrespective of how sunny it is most of the time.  Besides, I think I would get bored with weather being the same for long stretches of time.  At least in Britain the weather is never boring.  Dreary, occasionally, but never boring.</p>
<p>Having said that, I guess hurricanes, to which Florida is susceptible IIUC, are the complete opposite of boring.</p>
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		<title>By: Tony Mach</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/02/06/hey-i-can-see-my-snow-covered-house-from-here/#comment-322795</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony Mach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2012 18:58:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=44293#comment-322795</guid>
		<description>Good to see that you don&#039;t fall for the correlation trap, like the climate deniers always do. As you explain far better than I could snow does clearly correlate with temperatures, it just isn&#039;t a good temperature proxy. You can see that with the receding glaciers!

Keep up the good work!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good to see that you don&#8217;t fall for the correlation trap, like the climate deniers always do. As you explain far better than I could snow does clearly correlate with temperatures, it just isn&#8217;t a good temperature proxy. You can see that with the receding glaciers!</p>
<p>Keep up the good work!</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/02/06/hey-i-can-see-my-snow-covered-house-from-here/#comment-322794</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2012 17:44:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=44293#comment-322794</guid>
		<description>24 : Nigel, hear ya.  I personally am glad I was lucky enough to get a job in Florida my career, I actually have enjoyed the sunshine here and every winter am glad I&#039;m not freezing; I did that the first half of my life as a kid in Wisconsin.  But I was mother&#039;s perfect student at UW-Madison which helped me get my job in Fla.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>24 : Nigel, hear ya.  I personally am glad I was lucky enough to get a job in Florida my career, I actually have enjoyed the sunshine here and every winter am glad I&#8217;m not freezing; I did that the first half of my life as a kid in Wisconsin.  But I was mother&#8217;s perfect student at UW-Madison which helped me get my job in Fla.</p>
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		<title>By: Nigel Depledge</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/02/06/hey-i-can-see-my-snow-covered-house-from-here/#comment-322793</link>
		<dc:creator>Nigel Depledge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2012 12:55:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=44293#comment-322793</guid>
		<description>Jeff (21) said:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Even BBC london weathermen have been complaining about the cold .&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Well, to be fair, complaining about the weather is what it means to be British.

It&#039;s always too hot, too cold, too wet, too dry, too snowy, too cloudy, too sunny, too windy or too still here. ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff (21) said:</p>
<blockquote><p>Even BBC london weathermen have been complaining about the cold .</p></blockquote>
<p>Well, to be fair, complaining about the weather is what it means to be British.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s always too hot, too cold, too wet, too dry, too snowy, too cloudy, too sunny, too windy or too still here. <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: JB of Brisbane</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/02/06/hey-i-can-see-my-snow-covered-house-from-here/#comment-322792</link>
		<dc:creator>JB of Brisbane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2012 10:42:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=44293#comment-322792</guid>
		<description>@JMW #15 - I think it was one of Will Shakespeare&#039;s plays, wasn&#039;t it?
&quot;One swallow doth not a summer make, nor iron bars a cage.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@JMW #15 &#8211; I think it was one of Will Shakespeare&#8217;s plays, wasn&#8217;t it?<br />
&#8220;One swallow doth not a summer make, nor iron bars a cage.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Ted Player</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/02/06/hey-i-can-see-my-snow-covered-house-from-here/#comment-322791</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted Player</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2012 23:46:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=44293#comment-322791</guid>
		<description>sHx wrote:&quot;We have had extreme weather galore this northern winter and southern summer. More proof we are headed towards a looming catastrophe brought by Human-Induced Rapid Global Overheating.&quot;

My point is that claims like the one you made here are counter-productive because they are so easily countered. I live in a place that usually gets a lot of snow in the winter, but we are having a very mild winter so far. One season does not climate make!  Pretending one storm or one season is good evidence (either way) does a true disservice. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sHx wrote:&#8221;We have had extreme weather galore this northern winter and southern summer. More proof we are headed towards a looming catastrophe brought by Human-Induced Rapid Global Overheating.&#8221;</p>
<p>My point is that claims like the one you made here are counter-productive because they are so easily countered. I live in a place that usually gets a lot of snow in the winter, but we are having a very mild winter so far. One season does not climate make!  Pretending one storm or one season is good evidence (either way) does a true disservice. </p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/02/06/hey-i-can-see-my-snow-covered-house-from-here/#comment-322790</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2012 17:02:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=44293#comment-322790</guid>
		<description>An interesting note on weird Florida weather, again not proof of global warming, but in 30 years here, I have not seen less cold fronts going through this winter than any winter; usually florida is a stage seeing one cold front after another all winter , not this year at all.  Very weird.

It is connected to colorado&#039;s snow, as it was ridging big time in the east and up to Iceland, it caused the snow in the west and a storm in california on the other side.  Europe also had a similar weird event this week with a siberian cP airmass penetrating down to Tenerife and pumping feet of snow in the Adriatic mountains and bitter cold northeast of that.  Even BBC london weathermen have been complaining about the cold .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An interesting note on weird Florida weather, again not proof of global warming, but in 30 years here, I have not seen less cold fronts going through this winter than any winter; usually florida is a stage seeing one cold front after another all winter , not this year at all.  Very weird.</p>
<p>It is connected to colorado&#8217;s snow, as it was ridging big time in the east and up to Iceland, it caused the snow in the west and a storm in california on the other side.  Europe also had a similar weird event this week with a siberian cP airmass penetrating down to Tenerife and pumping feet of snow in the Adriatic mountains and bitter cold northeast of that.  Even BBC london weathermen have been complaining about the cold .</p>
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