Good for you Ludovic. Your a breath of fresh air in a place where everyone else wants others to do their thinking FOR THEM.

I’ve never been vaccinated either and see how sick those who have are. The only thing I’m worried about is catching an off shedding virus from one who was!

All the people yapping about ‘herd immunity’ fail to recognize that IF the vaccines actually WORKED, then they shouldn’t worry about being infected by those who are smart enough not to want them!

I’m not sick. I trust my immune system to do a better job than any shot can. Another thing people fail to consider is that the vaccine makers enjoy legal immunity to any harm their products cause.

What person in their right mind would choose such a standard for treating their loved ones?

Zero accountability if I hurt or KILL you?

NO THANK YOU.

Smart people know better, the dumb ones are going to have to wait and find out. The hard way.

Only relating to water-borne diseases. Against airborne pathogens, hygiene is irrelevant.”

Moot Argument.

Question: Doesn’t the CDC and international authorities like the WHO suggest frequent hand-washing as a disease-prevention mechanism? For example, for the common cold and the flu? (seehttp://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/stopgerms.htm).

Isn’t that why doctors and nurses are supposed to wash their hands between patients (although many don’t). see http://www.cdc.gov/handhygiene/Basics.html

Hygiene is about more than water-borne diseases, it’s about stopping the spread of any illness possibly caused by contact with hands/face/respiratory passages, etc. Death by childbirth was cut pretty much in 1/2 when they started washing hands when catching babies!

@ND : “So you’re saying vaccines have had no positive effect at all?”
I won’t say that because there are no way to be sure of that. I just think it’s possible to live without vaccines, even within a wide non-vaccinated population.

Well, of course it is possible. That’s not the point.

The point is that:
1. Vaccination allows us to prevent the spread of many diseases that once caused widespread suffering; and
2. Choosing not to be vaccinated exposes yourself and people with whom you come into contact to a risk that is wholly unnecessary.

And, no, you cannot control pertussis or measles through fresh air, diet and exercise.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that, for much of human history, population density was very much lower everywhere than it is today. A low population density gives pathogens far fewer opportunities for transmission. Additionally, long journeys overland were rare even 200 years ago, whereas now they are commonplace, and international travel is seen as routine. We are giving pathogens so many more potential opportunities to spread than was the case just a couple of centuries ago.

And yet, they are – for the most part – not. This is due to the success of widespread vaccination, and really nothing to do with diet and exercise.

I know Human history counts terrible episodes of disease and death. I know even now many countries still suffer from epidemics, diseases of many sorts, etc. I just don’t include vaccines in the solution to these problems.

Have you ever heard of smallpox?

Have you ever met anyone who has had smallpox?

Why is that?

As long as we assure very good hygiene, clean water access, healthy nutrition, and a stress-free context for life, the natural capacity of the body to build its immune system is in best conditions to do the work itself.

Again, you contend this, but simply reiterating the same philosophy does not make it any more valid than it was the first time.

Would you, for example, believe me if I were to tell you I had an invisible pink unicorn living in my back garden? Or would you challenge me to prove it? Or would you dismiss me as a crank?

What you are doing is logically identical. You are making claims that seem outlandish and expecting people to accept your word without any corroboration.

This is a science and critical-thinking blog. If you post a claim here, you should expect to be requested to back it up with evidence. You either dismiss or ignore requests to support what you claim. So, why should anyone accept what you say?

A very sad thing those basic life support conditions are absolutely not filled in many places of the world. I don’t just talk about remote places in the heart of Africa. I also include big cities with high concentration of people in insane dwellings, with stressful context (that’s a tough and permanent pressure on our body’s defence), and polluted air.

In the context of disease transmission, it doesn’t matter. Even where those conditions are met, people still contract communicable diseases.

I guess vaccinating such population would no be enough to compensate those very bad life conditions.

And yet, it does. Most of these people in “insane” dwellings will never have to fear polio. Most of them will never even meet someone who has had smallpox. Most of them will never contract whooping cough. And so on.

All because of the widespread use of vaccination.

That’s why I think before thinking artificial help like vaccines, we must treat the basic : a sane environement for life.

Obviously, that would help people’s wellbeing in general, but you seem to be addressing heart disease and diabetes far more than you are communicable, airborne diseases such as pertussis and measles.

As long as we assure very good hygiene, clean water access, healthy nutrition, and a stress-free context for life, the natural capacity of the body to build its immune system is in best conditions to do the work itself.

Again, clean water, good hygiene, healthy nutrition and stress-free living will not do anything to prevent infection with respiratory illnesses like measles, pertussis, Hib, etc.

I guess vaccinating such population would no be enough to compensate those very bad life conditions.

Are you actually suggesting that vaccinating those living in “stressful” conditions would not work to prevent vaccine-preventable diseases?

Thousands of years of Human civilisation happened before vaccines even were imagined. Can you accept the idea that such a long period of human life history has been possible without the help of vaccines ? Seriously, can you ? And please don’t tell me that in those times everybody was ill or died young.

Yes, humans have been around for thousands and thousands of years. And during that time, a great percentage died in infancy, killed by infectious diseases. Those who survived carried on the species. Of course not everyone was ill all the time or died young. That does not mean that there were not a large number of people who were or did. See again my suggestion that you pay a visit to an older cemetery and look at all of the infants buried there.

In modern times, advances in medical technology, sanitation, etc. have played a role in longevity, but vaccines have given more people to actually survive childhood for those advances to make a difference in their overall lifespan.

I don’t see the point of giving citations here. You are apparently here all vaccines-convinced, so I would waste my time searching such matter for you, because as most of my words, it would receive a negative reaction (Nigel is a specialist on that).

As Chris2 and Nigel already pointed out, providing citations is a way to change our minds. You see, we value evidence over fallible human intuition. We are not convinced vaccines work and provide a major benefit to people just because we feel like it does. We are convinced by the vast amounts of evidence from all over the world that they work and are beneficial. If you do not provide evidence to back up your claims, then, as already mentioned, we have to assume that you are either mistaken or just making stuff up.

Do I sound that dumb ?

I don’t think you sound necessarily dumb. Misinformed, ignorant and intellectually lazy, yes.

Thousands of years of Human civilisation happened before vaccines even were imagined. Can you accept the idea that such a long period of human life history has been possible without the help of vaccines ? Seriously, can you ? And please don’t tell me that in those times everybody was ill or died young.

I addressed this point in #31, to whit:

if you look back to the time before we had vaccines, there were still a handful of people who did not suffer from diseases such as polio and smallpox, but this does not lessen the immense suffering that those diseases caused.

You seem to have ignored this, but it still refutes your contention that vaccines are unnecessary because some unvaccinated people live a long time.

Back to #35:

If Life was [sic] impossible without vaccines, we would have been wiped out from Earth right from the start.

Irrelevant. No-one has contended that it would be. What is claimed, and proven, is that vaccines prevent the spread of several diseases that previously caused immense suffering.

Just considering the power of Life along milleniums is enough for me to trust my natural capacity of building a immune system through a healthy way of life.

The existence of polio refutes your contention. So does the existence of diseases such as AIDS, hepatitis, malaria, yellow fever, dengue fever, cancers caused by HPV and so on and on. In fact, any disease in which the pathogen is able to exploit a naive immune system (as opposed to those infections in which the pathogen evades our long-term immune response, such as flu).

And I’m very happy with all the improvements of health that have been brought by the modern era. I count on these gifts of civilisation, but more important, I rely on my inner power.

Is there a difference between “counting on” and “relying on”?

What do you think you “inner power” actually is?

And actually, I really don’t care if that doesn’t mean anything to you. The important is that is means something to me.

Maybe so, but what matters to everyone else in the world is : does your contention mean anything at all?

I’m ok with you thinking differently.

I think this sentence has one word too many (it would be more meaningful without that last word). There is no evidence that your comments are based on anything resembling actual thought. Your contentions have the appearance of a load of intuitive, magical fantasy.

Really. Do what you want. I’m not here to convince. I just want to share a different experience of seeing health.

What is your “different experience of seeing health”? Exactly? I ask because, apart from some peripheral issues that can influence a person’s health to a limited extent, from what you have written so far, your “experience” has the exact appearance of doing nothing and trusting to luck.

@Chris2Says : Sorry, I don’t see the point of giving citations here. You are apparently here all vaccines-convinced, so I would waste my time searching such matter for you, because as most of my words, it would receive a negative reaction (Nigel is a specialist on that).

Woohoo! I’m a specialist!

Seriously, though, as Chris2 points out, you have made some pretty dramatic claims and, as far as anyone else can tell, you are just making it all up.

For example, in #28, you mentioned there being many books written “about the building of a strong immune system through a good diet (junk food doesn’t prepare your body like a balanced diet, and some vegetables for example are considered powerful against cancer), through relaxation, or basically (and that’s key in developping countries) improvement of hygiene.”

In #32 I asked what peer-reviewed research there was to back this up, and you have ignored my request. If you can cite actual evidence from rigorous scientific studies to support what you contend, then you have the power to prove me wrong and change my mind. If you cannot, you do not.

Furthermore, if there is no rigorous evidence to support what you contend, than at best it has not been proven to work, and at worst it has been proven not to work. That, by the way, is more or less the definition of “alternative medicine”, because as soon as alternative medicine has been proven to work, it becomes simply medicine. (With a nod to Tim Minchin for the turn of phrase.)

I am not at all a specialist in health.

This is painfully obvious.

But does it not occur to you that a health specialist (or, indeed, several thousand of them) might just know more about this stuff than you yourself do?

I’m just a human being who feel that steady health can be managed in a much more natural way than vaccines.

Again, is there any evidence to support your view, or is it just wishful thinking?

Is it so shocking ?

Shocking that you are so arrogant in your disregard of medical experts, yes.

… Do I sound that dumb ??

To second Chris2, yes.

By the way, junk food is definitely amongst the worst things that have been brought by the modern world. It’s a key point in the health issue. There’s a very good film about that : http://www.foodmatters.tv/

I agree with you Nigel about that :
“in the developed world, nations are experiencing widespread incidence of diseases relating to over-indulgence in “nutrition”. Namely, diabetes and heart disease. Diet plays a significant role in causing these diseases – specifically, a diet containing excessive amounts of sugar and fat (and, to some extent, the exact types of sugar and fat). So, while improved access to a wide range of foodstuffs has played a role in reducing the incidence of some varieties of ill-health (namely, vitamin deficiencies and starvation), the same factor is causing some diseases to increase.”

Sorry, I don’t see the point of giving citations here. You are apparently here all vaccines-convinced, so I would waste my time searching such matter for you,

Um, the point is that you made a very specific claim. It is up to you to provide evidence of that claim. It looks like you just made it up, because if the claim was true you would be able to find the verifiable documentation very quickly.

In the future don’t make claims unless you have the evidence to back it up.

I’m just a human being who feel that steady health can be managed in a much more natural way than vaccines.

All the while being protected from certain infections by others around you who are vaccinated. You are being a leech on that shield of protection. Though, it seems that there are many holes in that shield if you live in France. All it takes is being in the same room/store/tram as someone with measles (which is infectious a week or more before symptoms) and you will more than likely get it.

Do I sound that dumb ??

Yes.

So you’re saying vaccines have had no positive effect at all?

“If Life was impossible without vaccines, we would have been wiped out from Earth right from the start.”

Nobody said it was impossible. Besides, what does impossible mean? But vaccines do mean less of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poliomyelitis

Do you acknowledge that a vaccines have eliminated polio from most countries? I would have asked you what you would have done instead of using vaccines, but you have no idea what you’re talking about.

I’m ok with you thinking differently. Really. Do what you want. I’m not here to convince. I just want to share a different experience of seeing health.

@Chris2Says : Sorry, I don’t see the point of giving citations here. You are apparently here all vaccines-convinced, so I would waste my time searching such matter for you, because as most of my words, it would receive a negative reaction (Nigel is a specialist on that).
I am not at all a specialist in health. I’m just a human being who feel that steady health can be managed in a much more natural way than vaccines.
Is it so shocking ?… Do I sound that dumb ??