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	<title>Comments on: Kepler finds a planet in a binary star&#039;s habitable zone</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/08/29/kepler-finds-a-planet-in-a-binary-stars-habitable-zone/</link>
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		<title>By: qbsmd</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/08/29/kepler-finds-a-planet-in-a-binary-stars-habitable-zone/#comment-340950</link>
		<dc:creator>qbsmd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Sep 2012 23:32:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=53971#comment-340950</guid>
		<description>How does the habitable zone for moons of gas giants compare to the habitable zone for planets? Since moons are subject to infrared heating from the planet, as well as tidal heating, the moon habitable zone should extend further out (based on evidence liquid water on Enceladus and Europa, the habitable zone should extend that far). Would a moon in the habitable zone for planets be habitable, or too hot to support life?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How does the habitable zone for moons of gas giants compare to the habitable zone for planets? Since moons are subject to infrared heating from the planet, as well as tidal heating, the moon habitable zone should extend further out (based on evidence liquid water on Enceladus and Europa, the habitable zone should extend that far). Would a moon in the habitable zone for planets be habitable, or too hot to support life?</p>
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		<title>By: andy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/08/29/kepler-finds-a-planet-in-a-binary-stars-habitable-zone/#comment-340949</link>
		<dc:creator>andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Sep 2012 15:34:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=53971#comment-340949</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt; Would this gas giant also put out deadly radiation like Jupiter?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Well given the size it is more likely a high-Z (metal-rich, which refers to elements other than hydrogen and helium) planet more like Uranus and Neptune than Jupiter. I use the term &quot;high-Z&quot; rather than the common &quot;ice giant&quot; because the Kepler-47 planets have migrated through the inner system where they may well have picked up substantial amounts of rocky (as opposed to icy) material, and also we don&#039;t actually know how much ice is in Uranus and Neptune anyway (there could be a lot of rock there as well). Uranus and Neptune have &lt;em&gt;weird&lt;/em&gt; magnetic fields, the magnetic axis is substantially offset from the centre of the planet - it looks like the magnetic fields are generated in a fluid layer nearer the &quot;surface&quot; of the planet than the centre. They do maintain radiation belts nevertheless.

We actually know frustratingly little about the structure of Uranus and Neptune, let alone extrasolar Neptune-mass planets. It seems likely that there are significant differences between the two (so much for them being &quot;twin planets&quot;). In particular, Uranus appears to lack an internal heat source so heat from the Sun plays a significant role in its energy budget, while Neptune does exhibit internal heating. We also don&#039;t know if these planets have a well-defined separation between the core, the mantle and the outer atmosphere.

In short, we need another mission to both these planets, preferably with orbiters. Uranus itself seems to have a bit of a reputation for being a bland target and the moons so far appear to lack the cryovolcanic activity seen elsewhere. On the other hand, Hubble reveals significant seasonal variations and the inner moons and ring system seems to be a highly dynamic environment with rings forming and disappearing on timescales of years. Furthermore several of the shepherd satellites have unstable orbits.

And finally, the stupid joke is stupid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p> Would this gas giant also put out deadly radiation like Jupiter?</p></blockquote>
<p>Well given the size it is more likely a high-Z (metal-rich, which refers to elements other than hydrogen and helium) planet more like Uranus and Neptune than Jupiter. I use the term &#8220;high-Z&#8221; rather than the common &#8220;ice giant&#8221; because the Kepler-47 planets have migrated through the inner system where they may well have picked up substantial amounts of rocky (as opposed to icy) material, and also we don&#8217;t actually know how much ice is in Uranus and Neptune anyway (there could be a lot of rock there as well). Uranus and Neptune have <em>weird</em> magnetic fields, the magnetic axis is substantially offset from the centre of the planet &#8211; it looks like the magnetic fields are generated in a fluid layer nearer the &#8220;surface&#8221; of the planet than the centre. They do maintain radiation belts nevertheless.</p>
<p>We actually know frustratingly little about the structure of Uranus and Neptune, let alone extrasolar Neptune-mass planets. It seems likely that there are significant differences between the two (so much for them being &#8220;twin planets&#8221;). In particular, Uranus appears to lack an internal heat source so heat from the Sun plays a significant role in its energy budget, while Neptune does exhibit internal heating. We also don&#8217;t know if these planets have a well-defined separation between the core, the mantle and the outer atmosphere.</p>
<p>In short, we need another mission to both these planets, preferably with orbiters. Uranus itself seems to have a bit of a reputation for being a bland target and the moons so far appear to lack the cryovolcanic activity seen elsewhere. On the other hand, Hubble reveals significant seasonal variations and the inner moons and ring system seems to be a highly dynamic environment with rings forming and disappearing on timescales of years. Furthermore several of the shepherd satellites have unstable orbits.</p>
<p>And finally, the stupid joke is stupid.</p>
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		<title>By: Messier Tidy Upper</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/08/29/kepler-finds-a-planet-in-a-binary-stars-habitable-zone/#comment-340948</link>
		<dc:creator>Messier Tidy Upper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Sep 2012 12:05:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=53971#comment-340948</guid>
		<description>@ ^ andy : Yep. Agreed. :-)

BTW, I gather  Venus probably lost an ocean or manys worth of water which would once have absorbed a lot of carbon dioxide  before the Cytherean oceans boiled and steamed and photodissociated away.

@33.   amphiox :

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;If these two stars merged, would the result be a Sirian type star? The smaller star is 1/3 the sun’s mass, and the larger one is about the same as the sun’s, so the merger would at most produce a star about 1 1/3 the sun’s mass, while Sirius has twice the sun’s mass.
 (IE, wouldn’t the product of the merger still be a G or maybe F class star?)&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yes, for &lt;b&gt;*this*&lt;/b&gt; system the result of a stellar merger would be, I think, an early G or late F type dwarf star given those respective masses.

The system I was imagining there was ER Vulpeculae which consists of two solar twins so would produce a Sirian type star. Sorry, if that wasn&#039;t clear.

@39.   Gunnar :

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;Have you read Robert L. Forward’s &lt;/i&gt;Saturn Rukh? &lt;/blockquote&gt;

No I hadn&#039;t heard of that one before. Cheers - will have to see if I can find a copy. :-)

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ ^ andy : Yep. Agreed. <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>BTW, I gather  Venus probably lost an ocean or manys worth of water which would once have absorbed a lot of carbon dioxide  before the Cytherean oceans boiled and steamed and photodissociated away.</p>
<p>@33.   amphiox :</p>
<blockquote><p><i>If these two stars merged, would the result be a Sirian type star? The smaller star is 1/3 the sun’s mass, and the larger one is about the same as the sun’s, so the merger would at most produce a star about 1 1/3 the sun’s mass, while Sirius has twice the sun’s mass.<br />
 (IE, wouldn’t the product of the merger still be a G or maybe F class star?)</i></p></blockquote>
<p>Yes, for <b>*this*</b> system the result of a stellar merger would be, I think, an early G or late F type dwarf star given those respective masses.</p>
<p>The system I was imagining there was ER Vulpeculae which consists of two solar twins so would produce a Sirian type star. Sorry, if that wasn&#8217;t clear.</p>
<p>@39.   Gunnar :</p>
<blockquote><p><i>Have you read Robert L. Forward’s </i>Saturn Rukh? </p></blockquote>
<p>No I hadn&#8217;t heard of that one before. Cheers &#8211; will have to see if I can find a copy. <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: andy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/08/29/kepler-finds-a-planet-in-a-binary-stars-habitable-zone/#comment-340947</link>
		<dc:creator>andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Sep 2012 00:35:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=53971#comment-340947</guid>
		<description>@Jonathan Ray: actually while Venus does at first appear to be substantially richer in carbon dioxide than the Earth, this difference becomes much less if you consider the amount of carbon stored in the Earth&#039;s crust (carbonate rocks, etc). If you released these reservoirs, you would end up with only slightly less carbon dioxide than is currently contained in the atmosphere of Venus. The current conditions of Venus do not favour carbon storage in that planet&#039;s crust, so Venus is a more thoroughly outgassed planet than Earth rather than one that is substantially more enriched in volatiles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Jonathan Ray: actually while Venus does at first appear to be substantially richer in carbon dioxide than the Earth, this difference becomes much less if you consider the amount of carbon stored in the Earth&#8217;s crust (carbonate rocks, etc). If you released these reservoirs, you would end up with only slightly less carbon dioxide than is currently contained in the atmosphere of Venus. The current conditions of Venus do not favour carbon storage in that planet&#8217;s crust, so Venus is a more thoroughly outgassed planet than Earth rather than one that is substantially more enriched in volatiles.</p>
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		<title>By: Neil</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/08/29/kepler-finds-a-planet-in-a-binary-stars-habitable-zone/#comment-340946</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Aug 2012 13:17:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=53971#comment-340946</guid>
		<description>LOL &quot;Click to tatooineneate.&quot; love it :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOL &#8220;Click to tatooineneate.&#8221; love it <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Diederick</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/08/29/kepler-finds-a-planet-in-a-binary-stars-habitable-zone/#comment-340945</link>
		<dc:creator>Diederick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Aug 2012 08:41:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=53971#comment-340945</guid>
		<description>The Exoplanet app is also available for Android.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Exoplanet app is also available for Android.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Ray</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/08/29/kepler-finds-a-planet-in-a-binary-stars-habitable-zone/#comment-340944</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Aug 2012 04:59:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=53971#comment-340944</guid>
		<description>If our own solar system is any indication, the moons of a gas giant are unlikely to be large enough to hold an atmosphere, especially in the habitable zone.   The only non-gas-giant objects with significant atmospheres in our solar system are Earth, Venus and Titan.  Titan only has an atmosphere because it&#039;s so damn cold that the molecules don&#039;t reach escape velocity.  An object in the habitable zone would need to have mass fairly close to earth&#039;s mass to be able to retain water vapor for billions of years without retaining so many volatiles that no sunlight reaches the surface.   Earth is barely massive enough to leak water into space slowly enough to retain oceans for billions of years, while less-massive Venus has &quot;too much&quot; volatiles.  Earth probably would have had &quot;too much&quot; just like Venus if its volatiles hadn&#039;t been vaporized and escaped during the impact event that formed the moon, and then further removed by life into oil, limestone, etc to compensate for ongoing outgassing of volcanic activity.

So if we invent FTL travel to go check it out, I&#039;ll bet you a thousand to one that it doesn&#039;t have sunny beaches and billion year old liquid water oceans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If our own solar system is any indication, the moons of a gas giant are unlikely to be large enough to hold an atmosphere, especially in the habitable zone.   The only non-gas-giant objects with significant atmospheres in our solar system are Earth, Venus and Titan.  Titan only has an atmosphere because it&#8217;s so damn cold that the molecules don&#8217;t reach escape velocity.  An object in the habitable zone would need to have mass fairly close to earth&#8217;s mass to be able to retain water vapor for billions of years without retaining so many volatiles that no sunlight reaches the surface.   Earth is barely massive enough to leak water into space slowly enough to retain oceans for billions of years, while less-massive Venus has &#8220;too much&#8221; volatiles.  Earth probably would have had &#8220;too much&#8221; just like Venus if its volatiles hadn&#8217;t been vaporized and escaped during the impact event that formed the moon, and then further removed by life into oil, limestone, etc to compensate for ongoing outgassing of volcanic activity.</p>
<p>So if we invent FTL travel to go check it out, I&#8217;ll bet you a thousand to one that it doesn&#8217;t have sunny beaches and billion year old liquid water oceans.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg for President</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/08/29/kepler-finds-a-planet-in-a-binary-stars-habitable-zone/#comment-340943</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg for President</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2012 20:54:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=53971#comment-340943</guid>
		<description>This is an interesting find and the moons of the further planet seem promising for life forms.  Would this gas giant also put out deadly radiation like Jupiter?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an interesting find and the moons of the further planet seem promising for life forms.  Would this gas giant also put out deadly radiation like Jupiter?</p>
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		<title>By: andy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/08/29/kepler-finds-a-planet-in-a-binary-stars-habitable-zone/#comment-340942</link>
		<dc:creator>andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2012 20:26:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=53971#comment-340942</guid>
		<description>One other point to note is the data contains an &quot;orphan&quot; transit which cannot be accounted for by either Kepler-47b or c. If it does actually correspond to another planet in the Kepler-47 system it would have a radius 4.5 times that of Earth, similar to planet c, though until another transit is detected this cannot be confirmed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One other point to note is the data contains an &#8220;orphan&#8221; transit which cannot be accounted for by either Kepler-47b or c. If it does actually correspond to another planet in the Kepler-47 system it would have a radius 4.5 times that of Earth, similar to planet c, though until another transit is detected this cannot be confirmed.</p>
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		<title>By: Gunnar</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/08/29/kepler-finds-a-planet-in-a-binary-stars-habitable-zone/#comment-340941</link>
		<dc:creator>Gunnar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2012 20:12:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=53971#comment-340941</guid>
		<description>@22, MTU:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;Yet there’s been interesting speculations from many science fiction writers already about life inside gas giants such as Jupiter – Arthur C. Clarke in the Space Odyssey series and Ben Bova’s Jupiter novel in his Grand Tour series (click on my name for wiki-link) for instance. &lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Thanks for that tip!  I have placed Bova&#039;s &lt;i&gt;Jupiter&lt;/i&gt; on my must read list.  Have you read Robert L. Forward&#039;s &lt;i&gt;Saturn Rukh&lt;/i&gt;?  It is about 5 explorers who descend into Saturn&#039;s atmosphere and crash land on the back of a rukh, an enormous, sentient, flying creature that becomes aware of them and befriends them.  It lived at a depth in Saturn&#039;s Atmosphere where the pressure and density were just enough to buoy up its enormous mass, and the temperature permitted the existence of liquid water.  I think you would enjoy it.  I certainly did!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@22, MTU:</p>
<blockquote><p><i>Yet there’s been interesting speculations from many science fiction writers already about life inside gas giants such as Jupiter – Arthur C. Clarke in the Space Odyssey series and Ben Bova’s Jupiter novel in his Grand Tour series (click on my name for wiki-link) for instance. </i></p></blockquote>
<p>Thanks for that tip!  I have placed Bova&#8217;s <i>Jupiter</i> on my must read list.  Have you read Robert L. Forward&#8217;s <i>Saturn Rukh</i>?  It is about 5 explorers who descend into Saturn&#8217;s atmosphere and crash land on the back of a rukh, an enormous, sentient, flying creature that becomes aware of them and befriends them.  It lived at a depth in Saturn&#8217;s Atmosphere where the pressure and density were just enough to buoy up its enormous mass, and the temperature permitted the existence of liquid water.  I think you would enjoy it.  I certainly did!</p>
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