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	<title>Comments on: The song of killer electrons</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/10/01/the-song-of-killer-electrons/</link>
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	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2012 15:12:45 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Roger B</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/10/01/the-song-of-killer-electrons/#comment-342595</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Oct 2012 02:15:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=54546#comment-342595</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s the Ether, Stupid! ;-)
Actually, it kinda is.
But it exists in not-yet-directly-observable form.
Intuitive models break at low scales.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s the Ether, Stupid! <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
Actually, it kinda is.<br />
But it exists in not-yet-directly-observable form.<br />
Intuitive models break at low scales.</p>
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		<title>By: Detecting gravity waves</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/10/01/the-song-of-killer-electrons/#comment-342594</link>
		<dc:creator>Detecting gravity waves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2012 14:53:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=54546#comment-342594</guid>
		<description>[...] time -- that is even further away, therefore farther back in time -- using gravitational radiation.&quot;A revolution in astronomy might be just around the corner -- if Einstein&#039;s description of gravity tu...explained by the existence of gravity waves. But no one has managed to detect gravity waves [...] </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] time &#8212; that is even further away, therefore farther back in time &#8212; using gravitational radiation.&quot;A revolution in astronomy might be just around the corner &#8212; if Einstein&#039;s description of gravity tu&#8230;explained by the existence of gravity waves. But no one has managed to detect gravity waves [...] </p>
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		<title>By: Gavin Flower</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/10/01/the-song-of-killer-electrons/#comment-342593</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin Flower</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2012 00:01:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=54546#comment-342593</guid>
		<description>@DanM #42

How did you get your post the number &#039;42&#039; - you do know that is the answer to &#039;the Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything&#039;?  According to the &#039;Hitch Hikers Guide to the Universe&#039;, by Douglas Adams.

The speed of light in a vacuum in Maxwell’s equations, is derived from 2 &#039;constants&#039; εo (the dielectric permittivity of a vacuum) and μo (the magnetic permeability of a vacuum).  Apart from the fact that no explanation is given as to why a vacuum has to have these particular values for those constants, there is also no explanation for why a changing electric field creates a changing magnetic field - AFAIK.

I said “However, you do need to consider Special Relativity when building a GPS system.” this is simply carelessness on my part – you need General Relativity to cope with the acceleration and differences in gravitational potential, associated with the orbit of a GPS satellite.

See 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ-ElsvYKyo&amp;feature=related
for a series of lectures on String Theory by Leonard Susskind (he used to be plumber!).

The facts that light propagates through a vacuum and has a constant speed are found through observation.  However, the interesting problem for me is what is the fundamental nature of Space &amp; Time that makes this so.  Hence, Maxwell’s equations are insufficient to explain why light travels through a vacuum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@DanM #42</p>
<p>How did you get your post the number &#8217;42&#8242; &#8211; you do know that is the answer to &#8216;the Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything&#8217;?  According to the &#8216;Hitch Hikers Guide to the Universe&#8217;, by Douglas Adams.</p>
<p>The speed of light in a vacuum in Maxwell’s equations, is derived from 2 &#8216;constants&#8217; εo (the dielectric permittivity of a vacuum) and μo (the magnetic permeability of a vacuum).  Apart from the fact that no explanation is given as to why a vacuum has to have these particular values for those constants, there is also no explanation for why a changing electric field creates a changing magnetic field &#8211; AFAIK.</p>
<p>I said “However, you do need to consider Special Relativity when building a GPS system.” this is simply carelessness on my part – you need General Relativity to cope with the acceleration and differences in gravitational potential, associated with the orbit of a GPS satellite.</p>
<p>See<br />
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ-ElsvYKyo&#038;feature=related" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ-ElsvYKyo&#038;feature=related</a><br />
for a series of lectures on String Theory by Leonard Susskind (he used to be plumber!).</p>
<p>The facts that light propagates through a vacuum and has a constant speed are found through observation.  However, the interesting problem for me is what is the fundamental nature of Space &amp; Time that makes this so.  Hence, Maxwell’s equations are insufficient to explain why light travels through a vacuum.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrei</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/10/01/the-song-of-killer-electrons/#comment-342592</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrei</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2012 21:52:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=54546#comment-342592</guid>
		<description>@DanM
If it&#039;s evident that Maxwell&#039;s equations describe the electromagnetic wave propagation without the need of a support, then what was the point of Michaelson-Morley experiment (some 20 years after Maxwell first published his equations)?
All I want to say is that there is a net distinction between real phenomena (the intrinsic nature of them - the WHY) and the model (equations) that are describeing them (the HOW). Again, comparing to gravity (let&#039;s stick to Newton&#039;s frame), the apple falls down not because it and the earth have mass, but beacause (in classic physics) mass has an intrinsic property - in Newton&#039;s frame, that intrinsic property has no explanation, his law merely describes the net effects of that intrinsic property when you deal with massive objects.
The same is with Maxwell&#039;s equations - they describe HOW the wave propagates but make no claim on the subjacent nature of electromagnetic waves - i.e. WHY they propagate in vacuum or at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@DanM<br />
If it&#8217;s evident that Maxwell&#8217;s equations describe the electromagnetic wave propagation without the need of a support, then what was the point of Michaelson-Morley experiment (some 20 years after Maxwell first published his equations)?<br />
All I want to say is that there is a net distinction between real phenomena (the intrinsic nature of them &#8211; the WHY) and the model (equations) that are describeing them (the HOW). Again, comparing to gravity (let&#8217;s stick to Newton&#8217;s frame), the apple falls down not because it and the earth have mass, but beacause (in classic physics) mass has an intrinsic property &#8211; in Newton&#8217;s frame, that intrinsic property has no explanation, his law merely describes the net effects of that intrinsic property when you deal with massive objects.<br />
The same is with Maxwell&#8217;s equations &#8211; they describe HOW the wave propagates but make no claim on the subjacent nature of electromagnetic waves &#8211; i.e. WHY they propagate in vacuum or at all.</p>
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		<title>By: DanM</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/10/01/the-song-of-killer-electrons/#comment-342591</link>
		<dc:creator>DanM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2012 21:33:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=54546#comment-342591</guid>
		<description>or, er, cart before horse.   Or whatever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>or, er, cart before horse.   Or whatever.</p>
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		<title>By: DanM</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/10/01/the-song-of-killer-electrons/#comment-342590</link>
		<dc:creator>DanM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2012 20:16:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=54546#comment-342590</guid>
		<description>Who is confusing equations with phenomena?  I don&#039;t think I did that.  

I would not claim that electric fields can propagate in vacuum because of Maxwell&#039;s equations (which I think is what you are implying that I said).  However I &lt;i&gt;would&lt;/i&gt; claim (and I did claim) that Maxwell&#039;s equations embody all of the physics necessary to understand why waves can propagate in vacuum.  And further, that no other physics (which implies: no other equations) are required.  

That&#039;s all I said.  I think.  And I stand by those statements, although I completely agree with your assertion that equations before phenomena is horse before cart.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Who is confusing equations with phenomena?  I don&#8217;t think I did that.  </p>
<p>I would not claim that electric fields can propagate in vacuum because of Maxwell&#8217;s equations (which I think is what you are implying that I said).  However I <i>would</i> claim (and I did claim) that Maxwell&#8217;s equations embody all of the physics necessary to understand why waves can propagate in vacuum.  And further, that no other physics (which implies: no other equations) are required.  </p>
<p>That&#8217;s all I said.  I think.  And I stand by those statements, although I completely agree with your assertion that equations before phenomena is horse before cart.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrei</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/10/01/the-song-of-killer-electrons/#comment-342589</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrei</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2012 18:09:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=54546#comment-342589</guid>
		<description>@DanM
Please don&#039;t confuse the equations (Maxwell&#039;s in this case) with the physical phenomenon. The equations describe only the relations between various parameters of the electromagnetic field but they don&#039;t tell you why those specific parameters are involved.
Think a bit from a mathematical point of view, it&#039;s just like when you have a group / ring / filed and so on. You can define an arbitrary set of functions with specific properties that behave much like Maxwell&#039;s equations but without describeing a physical system (well, maybe it&#039;s isomorphous with the physical system but only from a pure math point of view).
 You can&#039;t say that the gravity exists because you have the relation between the masses and the distance sepparating them (Newton&#039;s equation), in fact, it&#039;s the other way around.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@DanM<br />
Please don&#8217;t confuse the equations (Maxwell&#8217;s in this case) with the physical phenomenon. The equations describe only the relations between various parameters of the electromagnetic field but they don&#8217;t tell you why those specific parameters are involved.<br />
Think a bit from a mathematical point of view, it&#8217;s just like when you have a group / ring / filed and so on. You can define an arbitrary set of functions with specific properties that behave much like Maxwell&#8217;s equations but without describeing a physical system (well, maybe it&#8217;s isomorphous with the physical system but only from a pure math point of view).<br />
 You can&#8217;t say that the gravity exists because you have the relation between the masses and the distance sepparating them (Newton&#8217;s equation), in fact, it&#8217;s the other way around.</p>
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		<title>By: DanM</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/10/01/the-song-of-killer-electrons/#comment-342588</link>
		<dc:creator>DanM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2012 14:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=54546#comment-342588</guid>
		<description>@ Gavin #32:
 &quot;The nature of the light propagating in a vacuum is not classical, as in classical mechanics information travels at infinite speed.&quot;

Actually not quite true.  The speed of light is a direct consequence of Maxwell&#039;s equations.  In fact Maxwell himself calculated the speed of light and was correct within a few percent, if I am remembering my history correctly.  This is firmly in the realm of classical physics.  Now, admittedly, Maxwell and his cohorts were not aware that this speed constituted an upper limit on the speed of information - but that is not a quantum effect, it is a relativistic effect.  And it certainly is not relevant to the discussion at hand, which was &quot;How do waves travel in a vacuum when there is nothing present to do any waving?&quot;  The answer to THAT question does not require an understanding of relativity (although that answer does IMPLY that special relativity must be true).

&quot;Classical mechanics deals in rigid bodies&quot;

My apologies for the use of jargon.  Most physicists use the phrase &quot;classical physics&quot; when they mean &quot;physics prior to the emergence of relativity and quantum mechanics&quot;.  What I (and most other physicists) mean by &quot;classical physics&quot; includes Maxwell&#039;s equations.  Thus, the nature of light propagating in a vacuum IS classical, according to this use of the term &quot;classical&quot;.

&quot;However, you do need to consider Special Relativity when building a GPS system.&quot;

In fact, if I am remembering correctly, it is GENERAL relativity that is relevant here.  The speed of the satellites is not the key consideration.  It is the fact that they are farther from the gravity well, so their clocks run at different rates.  That is a general relativistic effect, not a consequence of special relativity.  Quite different topics, despite the very similar names.




@Nigel #35 AND Gavin too:

My apologies, I should not have called string theory or M-theory &#039;pseudo-science&#039;.  There is an active debate in the field as to whether it is science at all, seeing as many experts believe that it is fundamentally untestable by experiment (and therefore firmly in the realm of philosophy rather than science).  Personally, I am agnostic on this question, since it&#039;s not my field of expertise - my understanding of string theory comes from popularizations (e.g. Brian Greene), not from any actual technical source.  However, I do tend to support the notion that predictions must be testable, at least in principle if not in practice, in order for them to be worth spending time (and research funding) on.  If a prediction is fundamentally impossible to test no matter how big a machine you build, then it teaches us nothing about the world.

On the other hand, I do know a lot about E&amp;M and about quantum mechanics, since I teach both subjects regularly.  String theory, the fundamental nature of the vacuum at the quantum level, and the ultimate consequences of these facts for our perception of space-time may be interesting subjects, but they are all irrelevant to the question I was answering initially.   That question can be answered fully and completely with no reference whatsoever to quantum mechanics.

Let&#039;s remind ourselves that Maxwell&#039;s equations are a perfectly accurate description of every phenomenon involving electromagnetism at any energy scale accessible to human experimentation (even the LHC).  Relativity does not modify Maxwell&#039;s equations at all, and neither does quantum theory.  When light is acting like a wave (i.e., when you have enough field amplitude so that the classical treatment is valid), its behavior is perfectly predicted by this entirely classical theory.  Of course, if the field is very small, so that you are working at the level of a single photon, you have to think differently - then quantum effects become important.  But the question at hand was about fields, not photons.  We weren&#039;t talking about single photons.  Yet :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Gavin #32:<br />
 &#8220;The nature of the light propagating in a vacuum is not classical, as in classical mechanics information travels at infinite speed.&#8221;</p>
<p>Actually not quite true.  The speed of light is a direct consequence of Maxwell&#8217;s equations.  In fact Maxwell himself calculated the speed of light and was correct within a few percent, if I am remembering my history correctly.  This is firmly in the realm of classical physics.  Now, admittedly, Maxwell and his cohorts were not aware that this speed constituted an upper limit on the speed of information &#8211; but that is not a quantum effect, it is a relativistic effect.  And it certainly is not relevant to the discussion at hand, which was &#8220;How do waves travel in a vacuum when there is nothing present to do any waving?&#8221;  The answer to THAT question does not require an understanding of relativity (although that answer does IMPLY that special relativity must be true).</p>
<p>&#8220;Classical mechanics deals in rigid bodies&#8221;</p>
<p>My apologies for the use of jargon.  Most physicists use the phrase &#8220;classical physics&#8221; when they mean &#8220;physics prior to the emergence of relativity and quantum mechanics&#8221;.  What I (and most other physicists) mean by &#8220;classical physics&#8221; includes Maxwell&#8217;s equations.  Thus, the nature of light propagating in a vacuum IS classical, according to this use of the term &#8220;classical&#8221;.</p>
<p>&#8220;However, you do need to consider Special Relativity when building a GPS system.&#8221;</p>
<p>In fact, if I am remembering correctly, it is GENERAL relativity that is relevant here.  The speed of the satellites is not the key consideration.  It is the fact that they are farther from the gravity well, so their clocks run at different rates.  That is a general relativistic effect, not a consequence of special relativity.  Quite different topics, despite the very similar names.</p>
<p>@Nigel #35 AND Gavin too:</p>
<p>My apologies, I should not have called string theory or M-theory &#8216;pseudo-science&#8217;.  There is an active debate in the field as to whether it is science at all, seeing as many experts believe that it is fundamentally untestable by experiment (and therefore firmly in the realm of philosophy rather than science).  Personally, I am agnostic on this question, since it&#8217;s not my field of expertise &#8211; my understanding of string theory comes from popularizations (e.g. Brian Greene), not from any actual technical source.  However, I do tend to support the notion that predictions must be testable, at least in principle if not in practice, in order for them to be worth spending time (and research funding) on.  If a prediction is fundamentally impossible to test no matter how big a machine you build, then it teaches us nothing about the world.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I do know a lot about E&amp;M and about quantum mechanics, since I teach both subjects regularly.  String theory, the fundamental nature of the vacuum at the quantum level, and the ultimate consequences of these facts for our perception of space-time may be interesting subjects, but they are all irrelevant to the question I was answering initially.   That question can be answered fully and completely with no reference whatsoever to quantum mechanics.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s remind ourselves that Maxwell&#8217;s equations are a perfectly accurate description of every phenomenon involving electromagnetism at any energy scale accessible to human experimentation (even the LHC).  Relativity does not modify Maxwell&#8217;s equations at all, and neither does quantum theory.  When light is acting like a wave (i.e., when you have enough field amplitude so that the classical treatment is valid), its behavior is perfectly predicted by this entirely classical theory.  Of course, if the field is very small, so that you are working at the level of a single photon, you have to think differently &#8211; then quantum effects become important.  But the question at hand was about fields, not photons.  We weren&#8217;t talking about single photons.  Yet <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Messier Tidy Upper</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/10/01/the-song-of-killer-electrons/#comment-342587</link>
		<dc:creator>Messier Tidy Upper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2012 14:16:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=54546#comment-342587</guid>
		<description>The Van Allan belts I take it, right?

Strange to have deadly radiation sound so peaceful and sweet.﻿ So much like birdsong.

Fascinating clip. Surreal to hear our planet sing. Cheers! :-)
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Van Allan belts I take it, right?</p>
<p>Strange to have deadly radiation sound so peaceful and sweet.﻿ So much like birdsong.</p>
<p>Fascinating clip. Surreal to hear our planet sing. Cheers! <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Nigel Depledge</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/10/01/the-song-of-killer-electrons/#comment-342586</link>
		<dc:creator>Nigel Depledge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2012 12:19:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/?p=54546#comment-342586</guid>
		<description>Gavin Flower (38) said:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Certainly, though, M-theory is Real Science – but that does not mean it has to fit what people feel is ‘Right &amp; Proper’!&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Agreed!

Classical physics was based on what people felt was right and proper, and it ended up in all sorts of trouble.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gavin Flower (38) said:</p>
<blockquote><p>Certainly, though, M-theory is Real Science – but that does not mean it has to fit what people feel is ‘Right &amp; Proper’!</p></blockquote>
<p>Agreed!</p>
<p>Classical physics was based on what people felt was right and proper, and it ended up in all sorts of trouble.</p>
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