The Robert Kennedy Jr. Anti-Vaccine Tour

By Keith Kloor | April 13, 2015 1:08 pm

My mother-in-law, who lives in New Jersey, recently mailed me a newspaper clipping. It was about a famous person who came to her state to publicly oppose a bill that would make it harder for parents to exempt their children from school-mandated vaccinations.  This same famous person had just visited two other states to lobby against similar legislation proposed in the wake of the Disneyland/Measles outbreak. Local media and wire services have covered the spectacles in Oregon, California, and New Jersey.

Yes, Robert Kennedy Jr. has made headlines again for, as the New Jersey Star Ledger put it in a hard-hitting editorial, “his crazy-talk about a vast government conspiracy to hide the truth that a vaccine ingredient called thimerosal causes childhood autism.” The Star-ledger goes on to correctly note:

He is wrong. Every major scientific and medical organization in the country agrees that he is wrong. Here’s all you need to know about thimerosal: There is no link between it and any brain disorders, including autism. To assuage fears, the government removed it from pediatric vaccines nearly 15 years ago, with the exception of a specific flu vaccine, and childhood autism rates have actually gone up since.

After reading the editorial, my mother-in-law clipped it out and mailed to me with a note:

Keith–

Saw this–I know it’s an “old” topic–but still in the news!

Baba

That’s the infuriating part of this story for many people–that it’s still in the news, from the New York Daily News to the UK’s Daily Mail. Of course, Baba mailed me the story because she had read about Kennedy’s unrelenting and misguided crusade last summer in a piece I wrote for the Washington Post magazine.

I anguished over that story: Before I pitched it, after it was accepted, and each step along the way during the reporting and writing process. I agonized over every sentence, every edit. I agonized because I didn’t want to give any oxygen to anti-vaccine activism, but when it became obvious to me that one of their celebrity crusaders was engaged in newsworthy activities, I felt the story of his obsessive crusade was legitimate. The reactions were all over the map.

I’ve spent enough time with Kennedy and argued with him enough to know that he’s gone down a deep rabbit hole. It’s not just that he can’t let go of the discredited thimerosal/autism connection. It’s his irresponsible conspiracy talk involving the Centers for Disease Control (CDC), calling it a “sock puppet” of the pharmaceutical industry. And his shameless hyperbole, which he has ramped up in recent weeks. For example, here’s what Kennedy said last month before a crowd in California:

“They get the shot, that night they have a fever of 103, they go to sleep and three months later their brain is gone,” Kennedy, 61, said, reported the Sacramento Bee. “This is a holocaust, what this is doing to our country.”

A California state legislator who has introduced a bill to tighten the state rules on vaccine exemptions has a quote in that Sacramento Bee article:

“I think it is dangerous that he [Kennedy] is spreading misinformation about something that’s very important for public health,” Sen. Richard Pan, D-Sacramento, a pediatrician, said in an interview. “Autism rates have continued to rise even though we are not using thimerosal in vaccines for children,” he added. “We still haven’t figured out exactly what causes autism. We do know it’s not vaccines.”

That’s what’s even more puzzling about Kennedy’s rhetoric. The vaccine ingredient he is most hopped up about was removed from U.S. childhood vaccines nearly 15 years ago (out of an abundance of caution and in response to parental fears). So why is he still ranting about vaccines today the way he does? When I was writing my profile on him, his focus was on thimerosal. He got upset, he said, when his critics branded him as anti-vaccine. He made it seem like all he cared about was getting people to listen to him about thimerosal and CDC’s supposed efforts to cover-up the evidence of thimerosal’s harm–which was the story that he and others unsuccessfully peddled in the mid-2000s.

But Kennedy is as disingenuous as he hyperbolic. Several weeks ago, I attended an event held at NYU’s law school, where Kennedy was appearing on a panel about thimerosal and vaccines. The event was combined with a screening of a documentary called, Trace Amounts, which Kennedy has been promoting. (The movie does not have a distributor, so it is being privately screened at various venues.)

Before the film was shown, Kennedy was introduced by an independent scholar affiliated with NYU’s law school. I took notes. Here’s how he started off:

I am fiercely pro-vaccine. I had all my children vaccinated. I believe that vaccines have saved millions of lives. But it is essential we have a safe vaccine supply.

Notice the double talk and the inference–that our vaccine supply is unsafe. He continued, launching into an anti-CDC tirade:

It’s an issue of corruption. The CDC is a cesspool of corruption. The CDC is cataclysmically conflicted. It is no longer focused on human health. It is focused on money.

You get the idea. The CDC is just a subsidiary of Big Pharma, and American journalists are too cowardly to investigate this captive agency. He goes on to mention that, “today, kids get 69 vaccines. When I was a little boy, I had 5 vaccines.”

In actuality, today’s children, from birth to 6, are innoculated for 14 diseases (yes, some with multiple doses), and six diseases between 7-18 years old. (This includes a recommended annual flu vaccine.) The impression Kennedy gives, though, is that today’s generation is receiving more vaccines than is necessary (after all, he only got 5!). Naturally, this is because the CDC is a “sock puppet” of Big Pharma, as Kennedy recently put it to one of his audiences. As the parent of two young children, I’m glad my two boys have received immunity from many more diseases than was possible when Kennedy was 5 years old.

Kennedy’s fear-mongering, combined with his inflammatory language, is toxic. Here’s an AP article reporting on the aftermath of his visit to Sacramento:

A California bill that would sharply limit vaccination waivers after a measles outbreak at Disneyland has generated such an acidic debate that the proposal’s author was under added security this week.

Authorities wouldn’t specify the extra protections around state Sen. Richard Pan on Friday, but the level of anger over the measure has been clear.

Opponents have flooded the Capitol to stand up for parental rights, and images that compare Pan to Adolf Hitler have circulated online.

Let me stop here for a second to point out the danger of media amplification of this tiny fringe element. It is for this reason that I held off on writing about Kennedy’s latest campaign–until now. It is a real quandary for journalists who are obligated to report newsworthy events, but who also don’t want to give undue attention to a tiny minority.

But the more headlines I saw Kennedy generating on his anti-vaccine tour, the more I felt obligated to weigh in on his latest shenanigans. Additionally, as Slate notes:

anti-vaxxers turn out in droves. They are few in number—representing less than single-digit percentage points of most states’ populations—but extremely passionate. Their tendency to cluster means they remain a significant risk for supporting outbreaks of disease. They are organized by well-funded groups financed by family foundations. They still gather at rallies and fundraisers featuring disgraced doctor Andrew Wakefield, whose claim that vaccines cause autism was later found to be a complete fraud. Their voices are amplified by notorious anti-vax celebrity cranks such as Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

As a result of this disparity in activism, anti-vaxxers have been successful in defeating pro­–public health legislation that would eliminate some exemptions in a number of states, including Oregon, Washington, Vermont, and most recently, North Carolina. Bills in Texas, New Jersey, and California are still being hotly contested. Well-organized vaccination opponents flood legislators with a near-constant stream of materials of dubious scientific or legal validity. And, of course, Kennedy participates, traveling around to states in contention, promoting a conspiracy-theory documentary called Trace Amounts. This documentary focuses on the manufactured controversy surrounding thimerosal, an ethylmercury-based preservative that was removed from the vast majority of childhood vaccines in 2001. (Autism rates did not decline.)

So Kennedy is not just whipping up anti-vaccine emotions; he may well be influencing policy. That’s newsworthy.

And yet…I’m still torn. Julie Leask, an Australian public health researcher who is one of my go-to sources on the vaccine communication issue, has recently published an important article titled, “Should we do battle with antivaccination activists?”

She writes:

Radical antivaccination groups, unlike industry bodies, are difficult to regulate. They arise organically, consisting of small core groups of highly motivated and vocal individuals who devote large amounts of time and energy to their cause. As for other such movements, a highly adversarial strategy could give oxygen to antivaccination activists, who may believe that persecution legitimises their efforts within a martyrdom frame. It also affords more attention to them, stimulating highly polarized discussions in social and traditional media, and perpetuating a false sense that vaccination is a highly contested topic.

Julia Belluz, a Vox health reporter, is also vexed by the media amplification concerns I expressed. She hast just published a really smart and helpful piece that asks:

The debate over how to handle peddlers of pseudoscience comes up again and again in the newsroom. With every Food Babe, Dr. Oz, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., and Jenny McCarthy, we mull some combination of the following: Do they deserve to be addressed? Should we seriously engage their ideas? And if we cover them, what’s the best way to do so: mockery? Earnest debunking?

Her probing discussion is music to my hears, including a quote from the social scientist Brendan Nyhan, who says that, “the principle of holding people accountable for saying misleading things is an important one.”

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  • Bearpants42

    You have to confront and embarass the anti-vaxxers. Pretending they don’t exist only fuels their rage and makes neutrals curious and susceptible to their rhetoric.

    People, especially Americans, have a fundamental sense of fair play. Suggesting that some ideas are too dangerous to be even heard makes them want to know more about the ideas, not less.

    Confront them.
    Bury them with the science.
    Mock their attempts to run from it.

    It sounds cruel, but mockery is a powerful tool to combat an ignorant zealot who craves legitimacy.

    • Ari

      I like the “bury in science”.
      Let’s get some current bcontrolled studies happening, so that there finally will be some verifiable statistics. Right now reporting of adverse reactions is only suggested, not required.

      • LisaL

        Absolutely advocate controlled studies for verifiable facts.

        • L p

          Those studies already exist and are ignored. These people simply won’t BELIEVE the science, because in their minds it’s all a “conspiracy”. Though why anyone–let alone any government agency would deliberately harm a significant portion of the population without good cause I can’t fathom. Of course, now they’ll call up every historical instance in which the government, et al HAVE been implicated in ignoring established harm, etc…..basically they are committed to their point of view and nothing anyone says will convince them otherwise–until one of their own kids dies of a perfectly preventable disease.

          • ciaparker2

            The reason is that the vaccine companies make billons worldwide off of vaccines. Theirs is the most powerful and best-funded lobby in the world, and they own the government legislators and agencies which are theoretically in charge of vaccine safety. The FDA, which gets much of its funding from the pharma companies, which pay for their drugs to be approved, and get to do their own testing of the drugs and vaccines, which the FDA accepts. Vaccines are not tested against a true placebo, meaning saline. As S. Craig says below, a new vaccine is only tested against an old vaccine, or a vaccine that has all the ingredients but the disease pathogens. Meaning if the old vaccine killed three babies In a thousand, and the new one also kills three, then the new one gets to say that it is as safe as the old one, which has already been approved. Or the old ones kills five in 800 with its aluminum, and the one being tested doesn’t have the pathogen, but has just as much aluminum, and also kills five in 800. They again get to say it’s safe, because only five in 800 were killed, the same as the old, approved vaccine.
            The vaccines are much more dangerous than the diseases in the US at this time, and would be even if no one vaccinated for anything.

          • http://plus.ly/cr4zyivan Ivan

            Oh cia. Thank God you’re here.

            Ladies and gentlemen, let me introduce you to

            The weird and confusing world of “CIAParker”

            Cynthia Parker’s sole mission in life is apparently to reduce the comment section on any and every vaccine article into a steaming pile of WTF?

            Cynthia Parker, Columbis MO, ciaparker2

            Some people say she’s a paid troll. I say, nonsense. Cyntha Parker is the face of abso-frigging crazy antivax lunacy.

          • ciaparker2

            A remark so asinine and contemptible that no reply from me is needed.

          • suz norkan

            Look at the blog you’re on darlin’! If you intend to stay, ‘duck and cover’! 😉

          • ciaparker2

            Thanks, Suz, you’re right. Now the question is who is taking down a lot of even my shortest, most civil but cutting-edge comments. I guess there’s not much to do about the gadflies that pursue us from site to site.

          • suz norkan

            Damn skippy darlin’! Move along! Nothing to see there.

            Enjoy the advance of troops and todays barrage against State Battle 277!

          • Proponent

            ciaprker2: “Now the question is who is taking down a lot of even my shortest, most civil but cutting-edge comments.”

            Interesting self-narrative..

          • Jack Sprat

            It may well be due to my complaints cia. Comments that suggest an activity that may potentially be injurious to a reader are precluded in Disqus Terms of Usage, and by many of the publishers using Disqus license. You are intelligent and opinionated. Your emotional attachment to some issues obfuscate your judgement. Dr Antonio Damasio, neuroscientist published Descartes’ Error. As you have provided suggested reading to me, please take the opportunity to read and learn something new. Dr Damasio explores the emotional context of decision making.

          • ione murphy

            Are you saying being exposed to germs and viruses at an early age is bad for us Jack Sprat?

            Study suggests that early exposure to germs strengthens …
            http://www.philipcaruso-story.com/study-suggests-that-early-exposure-to...

            Study suggests that early exposure to germs strengthens the immune … the first biological evidence to link early exposure to germs to stronger adult immune …

            Early exposure to germs has lasting benefits : Nature News …
            http://www.nature.com › News & Comment › News › 2015 › March

            Early exposure to germs has … thought to help strengthen the immune system and protect … staphylococcal septicemia after being exposed to such …

            Exposure to Bacteria Boosts Immune System | Men’s Fitness
            http://www.mensfitness.com

            … exposure to bacteria early in our lives is an essential step in developing a healthy immune system, …

            Early exposure to colds may boost immunity – Health …
            http://www.nbcnews.com/…/ask-dr-ty-will-early-exposure-colds-boost-immunity

            Aug 05, 2012 · A child exposed to colds and viruses earlier in life will develop a stronger immune system … exposure to colds boost immunity? … exposure

          • Jack Sprat

            Never even suggested that ione. Are you suggesting any risk at all posed by vaccines outweigh the benefits?

          • ione murphy

            What do you think about viruses and bacteria evolving faster because of vaccines, as this professor and others are claiming now? We know already that vaccines cause selection pressure and mutant escapes with the flu vaccine.Just as bacteria is now becoming resistant to anti-biotics and creating superbugs, we now have many diseases that are mutating and our present vaccines are not effective against that strain or genotype.

            “Vaccination; a driver of virus evolution?”

            Andrew F. Read is a Professor of Biology and Entomology at Pennsylvania State University and director of PSU’s Center for Infectious Disease Dynamics. His research focuses on the ecology and evolution of infectious disease research, particularly evolution driven by drugs, vaccines and insecticides that undermines human and animal wellbeing.

            Best known for his controversial views on malaria evolution, Read argues that the logic of natural selection has profound implications for public health that have yet to be realized. He is a passionate advocate for evolution-proof medicine. This involves the development of medical practices and products that will not be rapidly undermined by pathogen evolution. Just as important, it means identifying evolutionary mismanagement where short-term thinking creates so-called superbugs.”

            Tuberculosis Becoming More Drug-Resistant Worldwide

            August 30, 2012-Experts grow increasingly concerned about the growing resistance of antibiotics to tuberculosis. http://abcnews.go.com/Health/tuberculosis-drug-resistant-worldwide/story?id=17107153&page=2

            Vaccine-resistant polio strain discovered

            http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/11/141104111408.htm

            Hepatitis B: Immunologists discovered mutated vaccine-resistant viruses were causing disease

            Activity..http://journals.lww.com/jaids/Fulltext/2007/11010/Selection_of_Hepatitis_B_Virus__HBV__Vaccine.4.aspx

            The widespread use of vaccinations may trigger bacterial adaptations leading to antibiotic-resistant bacterial diseases and vaccine-resistant viral diseases.

            This can happen through several mechanisms. These include mutation (Hepatitis B vaccine), reversion to virulence (Oral Polio vaccine) or strain replacement (Prevnar 7). Strain replacement, in the case of Prevnar 7, meant that following widespread vaccination with Prevnar 7, other pneumococcal strains that were not included in the vaccine became much more likely to cause pneumococcal infections.

            In the United States ear infections, sinus infections, bronchitis, pneumonia and meningitis, which are often caused by pneumococcal bacteria or hemophilus, have become much harder and more expensive to treat because of increasing resistance to antibiotics. This is due in part to the widespread use of the Prevnar vaccine.

            Pneumonia, Meningitis Evolving To Evade Vaccines.These life-threatening pathogens are capable of evolving rapidly and developing genetic decoys that serve to disguise them from even the most powerful drugs…”http://vaccinenewsdaily.com/vaccine_development/317815-pneumonia-me…

            UGA researcher developing new vaccine to fight resurging mumps virus

            “The virus is always evolving and mutating, and new viruses will emerge,” He said. “It’s only a matter of time until the old vaccine we have doesn’t work.” http://news.uga.edu/releases/article/resurging-mumps-virus-vaccine-development-061312/

            Whooping cough may be becoming resistant to vaccines

            http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2013/02/08/whooping-cough-may-be-becoming-resistant-to-vaccines/1903439/

            Our findings highlight the need to develop new pertussis-containing vaccines that will provide long-lasting immunity

            NEJM 1200850

            There is concern about how long the booster shot provides protection, because many kids who are up-to-date on immunizations, including the booster shot, still have contracted whooping cough. Public health officials agree on one thing: “We need a better vaccine for pertussis”, CDC spokesman Tom Skinner said.

            The live-attenuated measles vaccine is effective, but measles outbreaks still occur in vaccinated populations.This review summarizes recent advances in our understanding of measles vaccine immunogenetics relative to the perspective of developing better measles vaccines

            There is a need for research on determinants of measles vaccine response, and the development of improved measles vaccines.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3570049/

            Skowronski DM, De Serres G, Crowcroft NS, Janjua NZ, Boulianne N, et al. Association between the 2008-09 Seasonal Influenza Vaccine and Pandemic H1N1 Illness during Spring-Summer 2009: Four Observational Studies from Canada. PLoS Medicine, 2010; 7(4): e1000258 DOI: 10.1371/journal.pmed.1000258

            Viboud C, Simonsen L. Does Seasonal Influenza Vaccination Increase the Risk of Illness with the2009 A/H1N1 Pandemic Virus? PLoS Medicine, 2010; 7(4): e1000259 DOI: 10.1371/journal.pmed.1000259

          • Jack Sprat

            Sorry ione, I went through the voluminous post and could not find a concise answer to my question.
            Again, are you suggesting any risk at all posed by vaccines outweigh the benefits?

          • ione murphy

            That entirely depends on the vaccine Jack, now the rabies and tetanus vaccine I see as being worth the risk if you have suffered a deep puncture wound with a rusty implement, or are bitten by an animal that appears rabid.
            On the other side of the equation is the annual flu shot which usually has questionable efficacy, and a high risk of GBS. Then we have the Merck Mumps vaccine, with again questionable efficacy, and in Federal Court as we speak on two Fraud charges.
            Do you think if a pharmaceutical company that made children’s pain reliever, was under investigation and in court for fraud of said product, the government would still insist we should give it to our children till the court case is decided instead of putting a hold on it? If parents were concerned about the fraud allegations and didn’t want to use this product, would they be vilified in the press?

          • Jack Sprat

            Agreed, there are some variable to be considered. Anyone that is around horses or livestock is vaccinated for tetanus as required (10 years I think).
            The tenuous link between GBS and the Flu vaccine been clarified, there is none at least for Canadians, and the questionable efficacy is real; at least this year. No harm no foul, at least I didn’t get the flu.
            I would fully expect a moratorium on the continued use of any product until the propensity of evidence indemnified or condemned the manufacturer, if the alleged fraud were relevant and material to the manufacturing.
            Thoughts on MMR?

          • ciaparker2

            Phenomenal, Ione, thank you!

          • http://dont.bother David Foster

            So in an online form discussing vaccine safety issues (presumably), your argument is that it is not appropriate to discuss…vaccine safety issues…because that could be “injurious to a reader”?

            Got it.

          • Jack Sprat

            I think most can distinguish between discussion and advocacy David.

          • Zogby

            Brava, my good man!

            Your ability to speak out of both sides of your mouth is actually quite impressive.

          • http://dont.bother David Foster

            What’s wrong with advocacy? Just because someone advocates a certain point of view, they aren’t allowed to discuss it? That’s ridiculous.

            I consider myself to be a vaccine safety advocate, I want people to be more aware of vaccine safety issues because for the most part, everyone simply assumes there AREN’T any vaccine safety issues.

            One could argue that discussing that point of view could potentially be “injurious” to readers as well.

          • ciaparker2

            It’s beyond doubt that those who just buy the conventional line that vaccines are safe, while all the vaccine-preventable diseases are killer diseases that would wipe out millions if people stopped vaxing for them, are being led into a course of action which is far more likely to cause them permanent disability or even death than save them from these usually mild or very rare diseases. The question is whether industry interests should be allowed to shut down discussion and the facts on the frequency and severity of vaccine damage. If it is, then we have entered a new age in which freedom of speech and expression is banned, leaving only the propaganda approved by the vaccine lobby.

          • Jack Sprat

            Fairly stated David. Discussing issues and exploring our differences provides us as a group and species the ability to learn and develop, both as individual and towards a collective knowledge.

            What I protest is individuals posting unsubstantiated material, and information that has long been absolutely discredited, as fact.

            ciaparker2 repeatedly posits as fact; where does one begin,

            * Theirs is the most powerful and best-funded lobby in the world, and they own the government legislators and agencies which are theoretically in charge of vaccine safety.

            * Measles is GOOD for the vast majority of children to get.

            *Measles is just not dangerous in previously healthy, well-nourished children

            * Vaccines do cause autism

            * Autism did not exist in Africa (or anywhere else) before the vaccination programs began there

            * It would be better not to give the vaccine anymore, let people get it, and get permanent immunity to start REAL herd immunity when they get the disease and recover from it

            * your child has at least a one in five chance of reacting severely to vaccines, and, after the calculations I did the other night, it might be closer to one in two

            * Mercury is the most lethal non-radioactive element in the universe, lethal at even one nanomolecule per billion

            * So now at least 20% and probably many more are permanently and severely damaged by vaccines, starting with the one in nine with asthma from the pertussis vaccine

            * The formerly universal childhood diseases are rarely dangerous and actively beneficial to get.

            * Pertussis is good to get at any age past early infancy

            * There are truckloads of proof that vaccines cause autism

            * EV-D68 is the new kind of polio.

            cia has labelled herself a “vaccine awareness advocate,” and continues to prosthelytize dangerously inaccurate information; without regard for better (accurate) information or scientific knowledge.

            I acknowledge that there are documented case of vaccine related damages. I also acknowledge that the benefits of vaccines outweigh the risk. These two statements are empirical facts, neither exclusive of the other. I have politely shared new information and knowledge, which she vehemently disclaims. I have corrected posts and provided citations; which of coarse are based in conspiracy. Where is her personal accountability for what she writes? What is the liability should someone believe her and illness befalls them or a child? They should do their own research one may suggest; but what if this is their research?

          • suz norkan

            Bunko warning below, cia. I’m not touching / that with the longest pole on this site. Too ridiculous!

            If you’re game and don’t mind the continued fru fru and insulting assaults, then be my guest.

            That gives you, posters and readers the right to reciprocate and ‘fire back’ by FLAGGING whatever yall deem tentatively dangerous to readers, which may just so happen to be any data supplied by an opponent; vax, cars, the silly ‘too much water’s toxic’ platitude, the ‘too hot; drive thru coffee, the cancerous looking pimple on any Jack ….’s butt, etc., etc., etc.!

            All I can muster regarding your persistent heroism, cia, is ‘good luck and good night!’ 😉

          • Proponent

            But.. you replied?

            Now.. I am confused..

          • ciaparker2

            I have done that maybe four times in the last couple of weeks to let the new shills know that I will be ignoring their comments in the future.

          • Chris

            I actually think it’s great because anyone that takes a look at those types of hateful and crude comments will think twice about the credibility of that person. When hateful comments are made; most people tune out and actually have to wonder about the character on an individual making those types of statements. Trying too hard to discredit someone turns people off…at least decent and intelligent people. Zogby…I believe he’s the one that posts pictures of developmentally challenged people and the one above as well..it goes without saying.

          • Zogby

            “Well well, aren’t you a font of information! A business man and an actual background in science with a patent on a class of drugs as well! It amazes me the amount of ‘experts’ on these forums … I have no desire or need to give my ‘credentials’ but I will say your comments are nonsense.”

            Well, I think we all appreciate you taking time to share your insight with us, Chris.

          • Chris

            Since your buddy failed to back up his nonsensical claims why don’t you?

          • ciaparker2

            ? The Chris here and the Guest who posted above are good guys, while the Guest who said he’s a business man and into making money off of drugs is from the Dark Side. ?

          • Zogby
          • sabelmouse

            what a nasty piece of shill you are.

          • Chris

            He shows exactly who he is. It’s interesting how his colleagues back him and upvote his posts. I guess that shows who they are as well.

          • sabelmouse

            it sure does.

          • Jack Sprat

            Absolutely uncalled for!

          • http://plus.ly/cr4zyivan Ivan

            Hey Jack. Remember last week when you were saying Cia’s misinformation and outright lying about vaccines was a violation of KPBS and Disqus TOS?

            Go find your comments, buddy. They’ve all been deleted.

            Time to pick sides.

          • Chris

            I think Jack was referring to your statement:

            “Oh yeah. She just repeats the same stuff.
            She’s autistic. It’s perseveration.”… Knowing she has an autistic child?? I wonder if you even have children Ivan…how old are you? Deplorable… quite frankly I’d be very hesitant to be with the likes of you, zogby, nurse lilady..(zero compassion) ..even if I were not a vaccine skeptic I’d be staying as far away from the likes of you people.

          • http://plus.ly/cr4zyivan Ivan

            Cia has openly admitted she’s autistic. If you’re unfamiliar with perseveration, take a moment and google it.

            Trolls like Cynthia Parker, Columbia MO who get banned from site after site and keep coming back with yet another sockpuppet don’t deserve compassion. They deserve to be outed and mocked.

            “Hello, Ms. Parker. Spreading lies like this and using sock puppets is why you were banned from this blog.”

          • Chris

            I rest my case; your comments speak volumes. There’s no need for me to say more…

          • Jack Sprat

            Thanks, fortunately the have deleted several of hers as well.

          • http://dont.bother David Foster

            See this is the important distinction here…some of us are here
            commenting on issues that we actually care about…we’re debating topics
            that we are passionate about.

            Shills such as yourself, on the other hand, are only here to try to make one “side” lose.

            Just when I think our opinion of you couldn’t get any lower…

          • Zogby

            Wow. What are the odds? Not 30 minutes after I comment on your sockie *POOF* you appear.

            You got some cajones, Chief. I’ll give you that.

            The important distinction is some of us are here commenting on issues that we actually care about, and then there’s you and your pal Cynthia Parker. Documented liars who use sockpuppets and bully tactics to stifle and derail reasonable discussion.

            The mistake you make is first, thinking your opinion matters, and second, thinking no one’s going to call you out.

            That’s pretty much the point of the article above. Did you bother to read it?

          • sabelmouse

            you and ivan are so obvious.

          • A-

            From an outsider looking in – Ivan doesn’t help his cause.

          • sabelmouse

            no it doesn’t. in that case no shill would be allowed to state that vaccines are safe.

          • Chris

            I commend you Jack Sprat. Although I may disagree with you I admire the fact you are a gentleman and seem a man of intelligence and honour. I cannot actually believe the cruel conduct I’ve witnessed lately; it’s quite inhumane.

          • ciaparker2

            Chris, he’s admitted he’s appealed to the moderators of several sites to get my comments taken down, on the grounds that they are factually incorrect. I posted a long one yesterday with many citations of scientific studies on measles, mumps, and rubella having been proven to prevent and sometimes cure serious diseases. Factual, supported, but goes against the construct of reality the vaccine industry wishes to promote, so Jack Sprat has made it his mission to get me deleted from everywhere. I hope you get this, as I’m 100% sure he’ll take it down as soon as he sees it. Despicable. Too bad he and Ivan can’t delete the millions suffering from permanent vaccine damage as easily.

          • Jack Sprat

            You have not, in my opinion, posted any material resembling scientific citations. I cannot claim to have read all of your postings however. Excerpts from books, and links to questionable domains are not synonymous with research publications.
            I have no mission to have you deleted as you suggest cia, some of your comments could be dangerous if heeded. The erroneous statements you provide here are of no consequence, save my porcelain ego.

            The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

          • ciaparker2

            Chris,
            I’m afraid that Jack has shown that he is not a gentleman at all, but quite the lying, malicious cad.

          • sabelmouse

            where do you get that idea from?

          • ciaparker2

            Ivan,
            Thank you. I wish I knew how to do that.

          • suz norkan

            Aw! Dang that Ivan and his banging porn star gang! He leaves up their tedious, lying slop and delete all the fun stuff!

            I agree cia. I’d love to just figure out how to combine my incidentally accrued [forgotten password] disqus accts., even though Dan of disqus says it’s hard to do.

            Maybe Ivan can tell me how, or better yet, he’s such a great HACKER, perhaps he can just hack right in there and COMBINE them for me.

            Regardless, this playground is riddled with prejudice and bullies in the form of Ivan and his pseudo personsas!

            Suz is going where she can have some fun but where they also play fair!

            Like I said cia, consider the source, then duck and cover!

          • Proponent

            You know what’s fun to do, when it comes to ciaparker2’s posts and comments?

            Google them and that of her username.. to find out just far back into time one has to travel for the first instance or instances.

          • http://plus.ly/cr4zyivan Ivan

            Oh yeah. She just repeats the same stuff.

            She’s autistic. It’s perseveration.

          • ciaparker2

            I think the Disqus system has only been in place for maybe a year and a half. I’ve been commenting since January 2011, when I was appalled at the lies and railroading directed at Dr. Andrew Wakefield.

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            “I was appalled at the lies and railroading directed at Dr. Andrew Wakefield”

            Are you out of your f%^*ing mind??? You’re defending one of the most highly publicized frauds in the history of science? I suppose that was some kind of conspiracy? Maybe chemtrails made him falsify data for monetary gain? In my mind, this puts you at the same level of intelligence as Jenny McCarthy and Sarah Palin, if not lower. We’ll never know how many children you personally are responsible for killing because some desperate mom came in here looking for credible information. Yeah, let that one sink in.

          • ciaparker2

            Thank you, Ivan, for illustrating so perfectly the dichotomy of those involved in this debate: some of us disseminating the facts which those considering the extremely dangerous vaccines need to know before making their decision, and those on your side who bring nothing but insults and lies, sponsored by the pharma companies, hoping to bring back the erring sheep and their money to the pharma fold.

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            Disseminating facts??? Facts? You keep using that word, but I do not think you know what it means.

          • ciaparker2

            I just learned that there is an Ivan Forsch who uses the same avatar photo as you do, who markets a product called Fast Pe— Enlargement which can be found at that name dot com. Would that be you or is one of you an impostor? Would this knowledge have any effect on whom the reader would tend to believe on the subject of vaccine safety? Moonlighting because your business isn’t doing that great?

          • http://plus.ly/cr4zyivan Ivan
          • BeStrong

            Are you denying that you wrote the articles, “Pen** Stretching – Traction Devices”, 3/16/12 and “Pen** Enlargement Pumps”, 12/27/12 ??

            When I searched “Ivan Forsch, disqus” in order to see the profile of the person who posts such offensive remarks, these articles were listed on the first page.

            I bet if someone wanted to verify your authorship of these articles, they would find a link to a face book page that bears your name and displays the same Avatar that you use here.

            Just wanted to know if you and Zogby are the same person…

            You have the same writing style, use the same type of memes, and take seem to take pleasure in mocking people with disabilities.

            And both of you are connected to the same phantom “Web Design” company which doesn’t have it’s own web page.

            Bet that isn’t good for the “Web Design” business. But if works just fine for those, like you, who are astroturfing.

            Astroturfing: the deceptive tactic of simulating grassroots support for a cause undertaken by people or organizations with an interest in shaping public opinion.
            (dictionary dot com)

          • ione murphy

            I’m wondering if Ivan Forsch markets this product because of a long history of his feeling inadequate and being very insecure about it. How many products do you think Ivan has tried for his condition?

          • http://dont.bother David Foster

            Well we already knew he was a d*ck…

          • BeStrong

            He sure is, David.

            “Ivan Forsch” has been busy in these last 11 hours. He has removed his name as author on the Pen** Enlargement Articles. As of now, the name “Ivan Forsch” still remains as author on the search engine listings.

            These astroturfing companies can manipulate information, create online identities, and make any information that may potentially incriminate them disappear from the web.

            At least we know why “Ivan” and his “Web Design Friends” all sound alike. They were all generated from the same office.

          • ciaparker2

            You’re right, Strong. I saw his website with the dancing, completely naked girl on the right side, yesterday morning, and in the evening sent a friend the link so we could laugh over it together, but Ivan’s site promoting the pe– enlargement method or device had been blocked. I’m a little surprised that the shills leave evidence of their shill associations hired to make people trust vaccines (bad idea, people!) with many of the shills’ names (nyms, at least) on the published networks of the companies they work for.

          • Cap’n Jack

            Hello Love, I think you found a honeypot. Better wipe your hard drive.

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            and her chin.

          • http://plus.ly/cr4zyivan Ivan

            Fascinating. When I search for “Ivan Forsch, disqus” your comment appears at the top.

            https://www.google.com/search?q=ivan+forsch+disqus

            I don’t see this other stuff.

            If this was the first time you’ve played this litte game, I would probably just ignore it.

            But it’s not.

            You did this exact same thing with another user just 3 weeks ago.

            A guy could almost get the impression you’re deliberately lying to try to damage my reputation.

          • FsmPastapharian

            I would be very interested in the outcome of this little gem, as I am currently being harassed by similar anti-vaxx nutjobs..

          • Ivan

            You’re being harassed by the very same antivax nutjobs. Watch the skidmark who owns that site selectively enforce the TOS. Credibility: Zero.

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            Thanks Ivan. I figured as much. As for that mod, yes, I have noticed that he makes up excuses for banning people if they challenge him on his baseless anti-science posts.

          • Katia

            Yes, and just two hours ago, days after banning me, he asked me a question, which he knows I can’t answer (because I’m banned from his site). What a jag, as we Pittsburghers like to say!

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            The guy is a total douche canal. He’s either that ignorant, or he is selectively painting an inaccurate picture to advance his agenda. Though, frankly, I think he’s just a worthless clickwhore who decided he could generate a lot of comments by writing that POS article. At this point, I have a feeling that if I told him to fck himself I might get banned. Oh well, that many less comments for his obscure little page.

          • Don

            Once again such decorum demonstrated and from a person of such education. Let’s see how many derogatory things are in this one little post: 1. douche canal (classy), 2. ignorant, 3. a worthless clickwhore, (again keeping it classy,) 4.POS article, 5. his obscure little page. Jeremy does have an agenda and that’s giving people the truth. I’m sure he knew the terrain he was in before doing so, and really doesn’t care about the lame discrediting comments. Can’t help but notice how very angry you all are; quite over the top don’t you think? Anyway, it’s not relevant what you think; the readers will see it.

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            Hi Don. I apologize for my admitted lack of decorum. Intellectual dishonesty has a way of making me angry. And you’re right, it is what the readers will see that is important, which is why those of us with actual expertise in this field take great exception to the spread of misinformation, pseudoscience, quacks, misrepresented cherry-picked data, and propaganda by those who have an agenda far misplaced from “giving people the truth.” It would appear from researching the histories of many of these posters, that they have very poor online reputations, and have been exposed for having underlying agendas. You are, of course entitled to your opinion. I will even agree with some of your criticisms.

            But please also understand that we are not all “shills for BIG Pharma” or in the business of trying to cause injury to those unable to protect themselves. Quite the contrary. But, admittedly, it does become frustrating arguing with people who will not listen to what you say, ignore any useful info you may provide, and simply dismiss your data by posting walls of irrelevant text they don’t even understand. This is NOT civil discourse, nor is it in the best interests of the patients. It also does their side a disservice because their posts will be dismissed as propaganda, thus covering any useful data they may have otherwise been able to provide. Based on current public sentiment towards vaccines, that effect has been far more significant than the angry, frustrated posts coming from the scientific community.

            I hope you have a great day!

            FSM

          • Don

            I have not seen any of your posts demonstrate actual expertise in the field though, and with all the fake accounts and discrediting conduct; it’s kind of difficult to believe anything you say. Of course I am entitled to my opinion, and I am entitled to do my research and discern what makes sense to me; as kaita recently said, god gave us brains… so I like to use mine. I don’t tell people I am a scientist, a doctor or a nurse; but I do have a good education, a brain and great critical thinking skills that I’ve developed because I’ve questioned authority. I read Jeremy’s article and I agree wholeheartedly with what he says in his article. I also shared the article with a doctor in the family who is principled and he agrees wholeheartedly. I’ve seen how Jeremy was open, honest and totally transparent. Those are not the traits of someone with an agenda. Any agenda I can see from him is that he’s saying what needs to be said; the truth. Pretty brave I think given the climate here. Hell, he even came back to face the fast and furious attempts to discredit him and I saw his comments once again made more sense than any of you or your cohorts did. I can also see the anger and maligning of him is just making it that much more clear that you all do feel threatened by him. You want to silence us and you want to silence him. That’s the name of the game here; to completely muzzle any one else who has VALID safety concerns about vaccines. Why is that?

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            I am uninterested in other people’s fake accounts or faked credentials. That’s grade school childish behavior and exists everywhere online. It has no bearing on me or my posts. I do not expect anyone to believe my posts without confirming my statements through researching reputable sources. Again, you are entitled to your opinion.

            The problem with people who do not have formal advanced training in the areas of immunology, epidemiology, virology, or some closely related field is that they are unable to fully comprehend the data they are citing. This is not said to be snide or arrogant, but is simply a fact. People in this field train for 15-20 years in order to critically review the published data to understand this complex field and know enough to know that they still know very little. Science is NOT black and white. It is advanced in small steps, slowly refined and corrected as data is acquired and hypotheses are tested. Online research, no matter how well-intentioned, is not the same, and can be quite dangerous if you are not careful with where you get your information.

            It is that exact complexity that contributes to the successful spread of pseudoscience – people only understanding part of the data, and/or wanting to alter/twist/misrepresent it to fit either their agenda, or their confirmation bias. After this, it is quite simple to paint whatever picture you’d like, and make it very convincing to the majority of your readers. THAT is what’s happening here. I can not speak for Jeremy’s motives, nor do I really care. He is nobody to me other than another random blogger with no expertise in the subject matter on which he writes. I do not consider that brave in any way. That word overstates what it takes to post an unbalanced article on a controversial subject. I would also be careful with your use of the word “truth” as it is far too absolute to apply to scientific conclusions. I do, however, applaud him for posting a well-written, easy to understand article for the average reader. But that is also the problem, since when he has been called out by experts on his site, he seems very unwilling to actually HEAR what they are saying other than to counter with an opposing view. That’s the frustrating part.

            And by the way, it is not difficult to recognize who does and does not have actual expertise in the field *IF* you yourself are in that field. These are people familiar with the literature, posting clear concise data (not walls of irrelevant text with the sole purpose of avoiding answering the question) directly addressing the question being discussed. The tactics of the two sides are quite clear. One make clear statements based on cited literature, and counter with more statement directly responding to the objection. The other post citations to books and blogs well known for their anti-science stance, propaganda, or simply trying to sell alternative medicine products that don’t work, or their latest book about the evils of science. AND I’ll add that you would be able to tell the actual scientist in that discussion as the one who will say “Hey, that’s a good point.” or “I was not aware of that study>” or, most importantly, “I was wrong.” The side swilling their propaganda will never give those responses, whereas in science, we are trained to be critical. Before publishing your first paper, your are taught/warned that if there are any holes in your data or your interpretation of your data, that YOU better tear it apart in the discussion section. And that is good advice, since if you don’t, you can bet the reviewers will. And if your data cannot be reproduced, your colleagues will be more than happy to discredit you (see: Wakefield). That is why it is so difficult to find a scientific consensus supporting the antivax movement – it didn’t the rigors of scientific review. It may in the future, but for now, the data say otherwise. Additionally, if safety concerns are proven in the future, the pseudoscientific antivax movement has made it that much harder for that contrary voice to be heard.

            Trust me, you wouldn’t find me arguing with an engineer on a blog about bridge construction, and I sure as hell would listen attentively to an astrophysicist on the recent blogs related to the flyby of Pluto by New Horizons. That’s just common sense, but common sense which is lost in this arena due to rampant spread of anti-science propaganda and misinformation from conspiracy theorists. Do you realize that there are posts by the people you are defending that SUPPORT “Mr.” Andrew Wakefield? Do you not understand that had it not been for this man’s blatant, destructive, humiliating fraud that the antivax voices may have been given more voice?

            Anyway, I don’t expect to change your mind on any of this, ya know, confirmation bias and all, but thought it important to try to give a measured sincere response to the points you raised. Who knows, maybe you’ll take some of it into consideration and seek out opinions from those on the experts on the opposing side to learn where they are coming from. Have a great day.

          • Zogby

            I don’t know if Don is @Loni Hull or @David Foster, but I do know this:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvYfRiJQIX8

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            Thanks @Zogby:disqus, but I wasn’t really trolled, just oportunistic. I assumed with the over-the-top fawning over Hammond’s “bravery” and Ione’s “beautiful, well researched posts” combined with the private profile and low comment numbers that “it” was one of the bunch. However, my response/explanation of our perspective remains valid. And without all the vitriol, it may even penetrate some of the casual readers. We can only hope.

          • Zogby

            Whatever you need to tell yourself.

            Still gets an upvote. 😉

          • ciaparker2

            “we are not all “shills for BIG Pharma”
            Just 95% of those of you who comment pro-vax? Tecnically true?

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            On what do you base this absurd and ludicrous reply?

          • suz norkan

            Oh! Look at your upvotes cia! A fair portion of the porn star gang seems to enjoy your post & have extended your ‘like’ list.

            However, do ‘ya think this could also be the reason they’ve all gone PRIVATE in the past few days?

            ‘Additionally,’ [haha] maybe once they put the word around to the rest of the gang, they’ll enlarge the list for us! 😉

          • ciaparker2

            It’s funny, unlike most shills these seem to get a charge out of well-executed parries.

          • suz norkan

            I think ‘ya meant to say ‘well-endowed peenies!’ 😉

            More importantly, is how special you are to bring capn jack sprat out of his silence, since you’re one of the few eight comments in his 5 yr. disqus membership! Lucky you cia!

            Winnie would be so proud!

          • http://plus.ly/cr4zyivan Ivan

            Suz, can you tell me why you’re using 3 different Disqus accounts?

            https://disqus.com/by/suznorkan/
            https://disqus.com/by/evie_saleegents/
            https://disqus.com/by/qumahni/

            Seems odd.

          • ciaparker2

            Goodness, YOU think that’s odd?

          • suz norkan

            😉

          • suz norkan

            I could but then I’d hafta KlLL ‘ya! 😉

          • Proponent

            Three (3)?

            Not even close.. try at least six or seven. Lost track of the troll’s number of Disqus sock puppet accounts.

            scuz norkan’s use of the one incarnation that is private.. is particularly deceitful with respect to it’s implementation in these discussions elsewhere.

            (Side note(s): scuz norkan got recently banned from the Mercury News website, as well as, the Shot of Prevention website in the past for doing similarly.)

          • Zogby
          • Proponent

            You’ve just conjured up a number of pc in-game sprays that I’ve come across.. thanks for those visuals?

            😉

          • suz norkan

            Either ‘ya STILL don’t understand the rationale for a ‘sockie’ yet, parrot Pro, or you’re just a LIAR!

            None of my accts. are deceitful or sockies or trollers. I’ve even asked master hacker, Ivan and disqus, if there is an easy way to combine them. Have at it! Figure it out and then let me know. One would have to be a very stupid sock or troll to continue to use the same sobriquet in each acct., with intent to commit such acts. Duh!

            Regardless, suz has plenty to say, billions of interesting and literate nomenclature and the same amount of sites to post them in.

            Scuz and or suz also recognizes the the stench of bullied censorship and the demise of free and uncorrupted speech in sites where she is wrongfully banned; as in Mercury News and Shot of PRETENSION!

            No harm, no foul and no offense taken! Suz moves forward; with focus on saving post and pre vax injured individuals!

            Mwah, parrot Pro!
            Love, suz! 😉

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            Why do you refer to yourself in the 3rd person? This is clearly a sign of narcissism, dissociative identity disorder, or some more serious mental illness. Please seek help. We may fight, but I still love you!

          • suz norkan

            And I absolutely reciprocate your feelings! 😉

            Why so dark, darlin’? It’s more of a ‘grammal’ grandmothering; or as in ‘come to momma’ thang, from years of rehabbing, mommying and grandmothering.

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            I can only go by the information I have in order to draw my conclusions. Thanks for clarifying.

          • suz norkan

            And I just gave you my PERSONAL info as to the reasons for your inquiry; and you’re welcome!

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            I appreciate your care for animals. I’ve never owned a dog that wasn’t either a stray or a rescue. I have also chased down orphaned chicks on busy streets in order to have them rehabbed and reintroduced to the wild, as well as being an active member of a wolf sanctuary. So now I have given you analogous personal info, which is fine because it does not compromise my personal or professional life in any way.

          • suz norkan

            I also admire you for your humanitarian efforts to aide our animal friends. Thank you Fsm! 😉

          • suz norkan

            I could but then I’d have to tickIll ‘ya! 😉

          • suz norkan

            Oh! Look at your upvotes cia! A fair portion of the ‘porn star gang‘ enjoyed your post & extended your like list.

            However, do ‘ya think this could be the reason they’ve all gone PRIVATE in the past few days?

            Additionally’, [haha] maybe once they put the word around to the rest of the gang, they’ll enlarge the list for us! 😉

          • http://cendax.wordpress.com/ Norbrook

            Frankly, they don’t make much of anything on vaccines, in fact, that’s why the government actually has to encourage them to produce vaccines for a number of diseases. They make magnitudes more money from having the latest erectile dysfunction drug than they do in a decade of producing a vaccine.

            Mostly, you’re just spouting the paranoid conspiracy crap, along with the massively scientifically rebutted “factoids” antivaxxers specialize in.

          • ciaparker2

            Yeah, just 25 billion in revenue in 2012.

            http://www.fiercevaccines.com/special-reports/top-5-vaccine-companies-revenue-2012

            You’re just spouting the pharma line that’s disabling so many children (and adults).

          • Proponent

            Oh, by revenue only?

            And for the entire market?

            Must be in the wrong field, then.. as those pharmaceutical firms .. combined .. didn’t even crack the Top 20 by Revenue Worldwide.. ranked individually.

            Actually.. quite a ways to go to get into the top 20, here is the individual company listed in that slot:

            20. AXA …149.4 Billion … France … Life Insurance

            ‘Sides and to the point of this counter-point.. ‘revenue’ is misleading as an overall indicator of how robust a balance sheet may or may not be.

            (Source: http://www.bloomberg.com/visual-data/best-and-worst//top-20-by-revenue-worldwide-companies )

          • http://cendax.wordpress.com/ Norbrook

            Yeah, right As opposed to the diseases they prevent which are just a walk in the park.

          • Chris

            Unbelievably nonsensical statement. That is by far one of the most incredibly simplistic statements I’ve heard; one that cannot be backed up at all..It’s laughable! Anyone with any business sense at all would not fall for that one!

          • http://cendax.wordpress.com/ Norbrook

            (snicker) Well, let me see, since I owned two different successful businesses, and currently manage another one, I think I have just a bit of “business sense.” Even more to the point, I have an actual background in science, including having a patent on a class of drugs. By the way, no that wasn’t for a pharmaceutical company nor did I make any money from it. It was for the US Government. Which means that I’m more than aware of what drug companies do, and what vaccines do. Being older, I have personally experienced what many of the vaccine-prevented diseases were really like, and from other work, I do know what many diseases do, as well as the actual “harm” (virtually none) that vaccines do. So I have nothing but scathing contempt for anti-vaxxers and their paranoid conspiracies.

          • Chris

            Well well, aren’t you a font of information! A business man and an actual background in science with a patent on a class of drugs as well! It amazes me the amount of “experts” on these forums; very impressive indeed. However the comments and the conduct tell me the claims of all these marvellous credentials are just that- claims. I have no desire or need to give my “credentials” but I will say your comments are nonsense. Do something positive for yourself and others in the world…get rid of the “scathing contempt” for the so-called anti-vaxxers. It’s not good for you to be so angry and hateful.

          • ciaparker2

            Worse than millions of the vaccine-damaged with autism, seizure disorders, asthma, allergies, bowel disease, etc. etc.?

          • http://cendax.wordpress.com/ Norbrook

            None of which vaccines cause. Sorry, but it’s true. Now, if you want to talk the millions dead, the permanent disabilities, paralysis, late-onset encephalitis, blindness, sterility, and permanent lung damage caused by those diseases? Sure, just wave them aside. Idiot.

          • ciaparker2

            All of which are often caused by vaccines. Read the adverse reaction reports at VAERS, most of which were filed by doctors. Read the package inserts on all the encephalitis, autism, paralysis, asthma, allergies, seizures, etc. etc. etc. , caused by vaccines. Read the bibliographies of books by Mayer Eisenstein and Neil Miller, with citations of thousands of scientific studies done on the many different ways that all the different vaccines can disable or kill those getting them.

          • http://cendax.wordpress.com/ Norbrook

            Which are rare or mild side effects. Which apparently you can’t understand. For example, do you know the adverse effects of the measles vaccine versus the actual disease? Try two orders of magnitude difference, including a 1:500 or 1:1000 death rate for the disease. That’s in healthy populations, in poverty situations that death rate jumps to 10-30%. Now, a mild fever, a 1:100,000 chance of an encephalitis (mild) and no deaths for the vaccine is rather a good deal. Ever hear a case of whooping cough? It’s lethal in some cases, and can give you lung damage. But hey, small price to pay, right?
            Oh, here’s what measles is like.

          • ciaparker2

            I’ve had both measles and whooping cough. At this time we have one in 36 American children diagnosed with autism, one in nine asthma, one in fifty peanut allergy, etc., some of the many serious conditions usually caused by vaccines. In 1960 the death rate from measles was less than one in 10,000 cases in children between three and ten, 450 deaths a year out of four million cases a year. In the last ten years in the U.S. there have been over 1500 cases of measles, no deaths, no permanent disability, while there have been over a hundred deaths caused by the MMR.
            I would choose the diseases over the vaccines any day.

          • http://cendax.wordpress.com/ Norbrook

            (sigh) No, it was higher. Oh, and yes, I’ve had all of those diseases as well, and they were some of the worst memories of my childhood.

            By the way, the evidence is that ASD is genetic. Sorry to break that to you, and there is no correlation between vaccination and autism. However there is a correlation between autism diagnoses and increased screening for autism.

          • ciaparker2

            No, the evidence, accepted even by Tom Insel, is that autism is triggered by one or more environmental factors (vaccines). Sorry to break it to you, but the reason this is such a furor in California is that so many thousands have SEEN their own child or that of someone they know react to vaccines with autism. Normally developing before, autistic afterwards.

          • NeverRandom

            Funny – varicella, measles, and mumps were almost non-events in our household – a total of four days, start to finish, for each; well, except for the fully vaccinated child – two weeks and more severe symptoms. Personal experience shows vaccines neither lessen the disease nor prevent it.

          • http://cendax.wordpress.com/ Norbrook

            Oh please, stop the bullshit. My measles was 2 week, varicella was 10 days of living hell – by the way Christmas vacation, and mumps meant only drinking water because my throat was so swollen.

            “personal experience?” Well, your experience is not indicative of the much larger population, and yes, it does prevent the disease. Isn’t it amazing at how measles and whooping cough have made such big comebacks after morons like you proceeded to drop the vaccination rate below 90% in areas? Good going, please, please tell some parent that just lost their child “Well, at least they weren’t autistic!” By the way, I have two family members with ASD, and and bother were diagnosed before they were vaccinated.

          • NeverRandom

            Um, No, morons like me vaccinated – and our children caught the disease from their vaccinated peers, anyway — enlighten me how this happened?

          • Jack Sprat

            Have you read the insert provided with aspirin?
            That cr4p will kill you. For a long time.

          • NeverRandom

            Which is why many families do not consume any PhRMA product…

          • Jack Sprat

            We can cut some slack with seizure disorders…
            The rest is crap though.

          • NeverRandom

            Generous of you, Jack – in that case, you can count my child among the vaccine injured – she suffers on-going encephalopathy, seizure disorder, autoimmunity to her brain endothelial cells and myelin basic protein, hypotonia, metabolic dysfunction, mitochondrial limitation, focal brain lesions, global developmental delay and much more, since receiving vaccines at 14 weeks of age – she will be disabled for life. Oh, and they call her behaviors that manifest as a result of the health issues her vaccine injury caused, “Severe Autism.”

          • Kepler 48k

            I don’t believe you.

          • NeverRandom

            What, exactly, do you not believe? That a 14 week old gets shots? That a 14 week old can end up with encephalopathy from his shots? That the constituents of those shots can trigger autoimmunity? That the inflammation resulting from the autoimmunity causes lasting damage to brain tissue? Or that the above harm impairs the ability to learn and function for life? Or that these impairments cause behaviors that specialists label “severe autism?”

          • Kepler 48k

            It’s a very common tactic to pretend to be a parent of a sick child to try and win a vaccine argument w/ appeals to emotion.

          • NeverRandom

            Kep – I see. The idea that a parent of a vaccine injured child would have the intrllectual capacity, professional experience and education, and would take the time to attempt to educate other parents, is somehow questionable.

          • http://plus.ly/cr4zyivan Ivan

            Or the idea that you’re a sociopath using multiple user accounts and lies to manipulate the discussion is more plausible than your shifting story. You have no credibility here.

          • NeverRandom

            Multiple user accounts? Shifting story? To whom do you refer?

          • NeverRandom

            Sociopath? Has that been redefined to mean someone who posts links to credible research, encourages people to do their own research, and believes every citizen has the right to bodily integrity and medical sovereignty? If so, then I guess it applies.

          • http://plus.ly/cr4zyivan Ivan

            Yeah, I think this one’s a liar too. A paid poster.

            6 days ago NeverRandom says “count my child among the vaccine injured – suffering on-going encephalopathy, seizure disorder, autoimmunity to her brain endothelial cells”

            4 days ago, NeverRandom told his personal story, stating “Do YOU know what Guillian Barre or encephalomyelitis look ilike in a 14 week old baby? You take your child home, where he continues precipitous decline…”

            Perhaps just an honest mistake. More likely it’s because this one is using at least a half-dozen sockpuppets on this site and others. Can’t keep the story straight.

          • NeverRandom
          • http://cendax.wordpress.com/ Norbrook

            (sigh) Revenue is not “profit,” and much of that increase comes from specialty vaccines that are currently under patent. The standard vaccines, including the flu vaccines? Nope. Also in terms of global, 41 billion is peanuts.

          • NeverRandom

            Peanuts – poor PhRMA…Oh, good news – they plan to ramp-up to $100B+ very soon… And even the WHO will pitch-in to assure they succeed! http://www.who.int/intellectualproperty/news/en/SubmissionBarder1.pdf

          • Chris

            “They make magnitudes more money from having the latest erectile dysfunction drug than they do in a decade of producing a vaccine” That’s completely and utterly ridiculous. Anyone that actually believes this statement is seriously lacking in critical thinking skills, not to mention a total lack of business acumen.

          • NeverRandom

            Really, so, after the initial profit made from injecting every infant with 32 vaccines (for which R&D has long since been paid); PhRMA can count on having 1 in 6 of these (now vaccine-injured) patients, as chronic customers, for a lifetime…Seems plenty profitable, to me.

          • Jack Sprat

            From five days ago:

            As others will diligently preclude your premise, I will point out yet another fallacy. The Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America is the fifth, not first, fifth richest and most powerful lobby. Every misrepresentation diminishes what little credibility remains.

            As for the rest of the drivel, WTF?

          • Jack Sprat

            Yes I flagged it as the information is factually incorrect.

          • http://dont.bother David Foster

            “Those studies already exist.”

            Cite one.

      • http://plus.ly/cr4zyivan Ivan

        Yeah. Thought about that, and nah. It’s been studied ad nauseum.

        Bearpants was right

        Confront them.
        Shout them down
        Mock them ruthlessly.

        When they open their lying pie holes, club em like a baby seal.

        I don’t care you if agree. The kids that read science blogs aren’t the ones you take to a street fight.

    • David

      This arrogant and idiotic attitude defeats your point of view completely. What is the growing and now rapidly growing anti-vaccination movement? It is led by hundreds of medical professionals and thousands of victims who must be heard. And who are pro-vaccination?

      You see I dispute your sources and you dispute mine. Fine.

      This is why BOTH sides must lobby for choice.

      I have my good reasons–you have your sham show. Fine–go ahead and be scammed and shammed. I just want to be healthy and so does my family.

      Both sides need to just agree to have medical freedom here. I keep saying the same thing here and it needs to be dealt with–if you are crazy enough to get your child injected for MMR–go ahead. I will not stop you even if you create illness as a result.

      But you simply cannot rightly complain if I follow my science with conviction and refrain from the poisons and get healthy.

      The natural health movement is growing exponentially and this is because the claims and performance of drug based medicine is failing the people. It is failing so rapidly all diseases are now epidemics and some people simply do not wish to sign up for more abuse.

      And yet you are here to chase us down for trying to get healthy, you add insult to injury as our children’s lives are ruined and our financial resources are decimated.

      You go rigjht ahead pal and try to confront me. I know the science, I know the topic. You show me one study—one–that demonstrates the schedule is safe and effective=-even for the vast majority. MNo study has never been done and it will not be done. So vaccinating the entire population is the study–the real fact. And what do we have–epidemic level of automimmune dysfunction–rampant intestinal dybisbiosis, autism, viruses that do not clear–remnants of a variety of live viruses, cancer, heart disease, It seems like the more we inject the population the sicker we become BECAUSE the more we inject people, the sicker we become. A collective “DUH” is in order here. And it begins with arrogant people like you stop trash talking those who want to be healthy and start learning a bit about the topic before spraying your mouth off all over the place. This also demands some decency and respect for the victims who have payed the ultimate price for these insane compounds no scientist has a prayer in justifying before Congress. If not for the fact less than 1% of those injured by vaccines can apply for compensation-if we could all go to court and sue–there would no longer be a penny in the Federal Treasury.

      Great idea therefore to leave health decisions to the PEOPLE in consultation with their doctor. Can you hear? Can you listen? Monopoly medicine is ruining us.

      It does not matter if the vaccines kill only a few thousand on contact. This horrible bit of collateral damage is a scandal in itself. But you cannot sit here with a straight face and claim less than many millions are negatively affected by the poisons. That is just plain stupid and not simply counter intuitive. People are waking up. We want an end to the program. People who want to get injected are fee to do so if they can find a doctor that finds these things beneficial.

      Excuse me–I cannot find a single PHD, MD , ND, microbiologist or research scientist that finds vaccines beneficial. So why must I comply with your belligerence?

  • Tom Scharf

    “the principle of holding people accountable for saying misleading things is an important one.”

    Thought police. Define “accountability”. You really mean punishment and banishment right? Perhaps you should re-read 1984 again. It’s on most academic reading lists for a reason.

    Being wrong is not a crime. Being stupid is not a crime. Being crazy is not a crime. We don’t need 100% lock step (or should I say goose step) agreement in our world.

    I fully agree that everyone should be forced to drive on the right side of the road, but people such as KK seem to always favor these authoritarian solutions under the premise that the judges of correctness will always agree with their views (because they are so obviously right).

    Stupid, crazy, wrong people have the same rights everyone else does. We can simply choose to ignore them. Kennedy should not be held “accountable” for anything. Our esteemed lawmakers should ignore him.

    The problem here is with the supposedly sane lawmakers, not the insane Kennedy.

    • kkloor

      I think you are taking “accountability” a wee bit literally. I’m not saying he should be punished in any way. Can you point to the authoritarian part in my post?

      Because he’s a public figure with a big soapbox, his words reverberate more than yours. He advocates for positions that are detrimental to public health. Why shouldn’t someone be held accountable in a blog post or a news article for misinformation?

      • Tom Scharf

        It will clear things up if you define what you mean by accountability. If it is simply high profile counter-argument then we agree. If it is suppression of dissent enforceable by the government, we do not agree.

        authoritarian: favoring or enforcing strict obedience to authority, especially that of the government, at the expense of personal freedom

        In this case it is scientific authority. I generally favor this, but I would never give the keys to the kingdom to a self elected scientific consensus.

        Detrimental to public health is too broad (cigarettes, alcohol, Big Gulps…)

        I favor strict immunization requirements for admission to public schools. Kennedy doesn’t need to be shouted down to make this happen, you just need to compel the legislature to favor your argument. Your blaming the wrong people. Kennedy doesn’t make laws. The legislature can be held accountable through elections.

      • JH

        Keith, how are is speaking tours funded and how much does he earn from them? That might provide an explanation as to why he keeps after the issue.

        • lilady R.N.

          I don’t think Mr. Kennedy earns any money from this latest road trip.

          He’s selling his book with his same old, same old “belief” that Thimerosal preservative (present now in only 30 % of seasonal influenza vaccines and not present in any childhood vaccine) is responsible for the onset of autism. He appeared at an anti-vaccine conference two years ago claiming that he paid $200,000 for researchers to find that supposed link between Thimerosal. His rant at that conference used the same dreadful phrases regarding those diagnosed with autism and the Holocaust reference.

          Mr. Kennedy also threatened to publish that book for which he paid researchers, if Congress did not hold yet another sham autism hearing. The 2012 Hearing was a major fail for him and his anti-vaccine groupies.

          He’s a public figure who uses his considerable fortune and his name to gain entry into Congress and State Legislatures. Now he is being held accountable for his behaviors.

          • JH

            OK, well, so you’re saying he’s using his fortune to fund a campaign that makes him look like a moron? He believes that deeply? I guess it’s possible. Belief is a powerful motivator.

  • Ari

    What an emotional article.

    What we need are the US statistics on adverse reactions to vaccinations.
    According to our pediatrician, it is only “suggested” that adverse
    reactions to vaccines be documented in the US. There are no requirements
    at this time. The CDC has a program where adverse reactions can be
    entered, but again it is a voluntary program and no one has any idea on
    what numbers may go unreported.

    There needs to be controlled
    studies done with all vaccines (not just one additive) in order to put
    to bed the emotional rhetoric from both sides of the debate.

    Until that happen both sides fall into the pseudo-science category.

    • LisaL

      I agree,both that: this article is full of emotional rhetoric
      and that:

      “There needs to be controlled studies done with all vaccines (not just one additive) in order to put to bed the emotional rhetoric from both sides of the debate.”
      Less chest-beating and more empirical evidence, please.

      • Jeremy Klondike

        No emotions from the pro-vaccinations side. There are tomes of evidence. If the current literature doesn’t suffice as proof then I am afraid your have inconceivable standards for truth. As it is, scientific realities influence policy, regardless of ignorant people.

        • LisaL

          Most drugs will have had controlled studies in order to assess their safety. Most require that adverse reactions be reported. Any debate would end once these studies were conducted.
          I prefer empirical evidence from controlled studies, rather that the unspecific “tomes of evidence” and “current literature” .

          • Brian

            Sorry, but the research has already been done, but the denial continues.

            Did you know that the medical community had already concluded that vaccines did NOT cause autism back in 1990, by compiling several studies that had already been conducted decades before? This was 10 years before Wakefield.

            Every year, thousands of scientists report on studies they’ve conducted over the past year, and many of those studies reaffirm the truth, yet the deniers continue.

            If people aren’t convinced with 25 years of continuous research, why would they be convinced now?

          • seniorcraig

            Sorry Brian, but the research has not already been done. The trouble is, is the use of the word “autism”. That is the collective term for a set of behaviours. No, vaccines do not cause behaviours. What they do cause is brain damage and this brain damage can result in autistic behaviour.

            There is plenty of evidence, starting in 1948 that vaccines cause brain damage.

          • Katia
          • lilady R.N.

            There are controlled studies (clinical trials which are sufficiently powered…thousands of subjects in each study arm), that are published in each “Vaccine Insert” (which is the latest gambit being touted by anti-vaccine groups).

            Every “Vaccine Insert” is available on the internet and every study done before licensing by the FDA, is required to be published in those 30-pages long “Vaccine Insert”.

            If you find a “Vaccine Insert” that indicate to you that there are an excessive number of vaccinated subjects who experience serious adverse events not seen in the unvaccinated arm of the study, please post it here.

            Thank you.

          • seniorcraig

            The trouble with the clinical trials you mention is that they are not valid. No vaccine has been tested with a Randomized Control Trial. Instead they compare one vaccine with another which is nonsense. So when the test group gets adverse reactions they are compared with the so-called control group, who have received another vaccine and shown adverse reactions also.

            And you call this Science!!!

          • Katia

            http://www.redwineandapplesauce.com/2013/12/21/the-one-study-or-why-the-anti-vaccine-movement-doesnt-really-understand-science/
            “The One Study or Why the Anti-vaccine Movement Doesn’t Really Understand Science

            I concur!

          • Brian

            As a scientist myself, you apparently have no clue what makes for a valid study. You would not pass my class.

          • seniorcraig

            If you think it’s okay for the control group in an RCT to be given other than a placebo, then god help your students.

          • DaveJR

            I don’t think you know anything about medical ethics if you believe that.

          • Mike Stevens

            “If you think it’s okay for the control group in an RCT to be given other than a placebo, then god help your students.”
            Would love to see you justifying your “new insulin” trial as being one that has to have a comparator diabetic group given placebo.
            (They would die pretty quickly, making “new insulin” look marvellous, even if only partially effective. That is why “new insulin” would need to be compared to “current insulin”, stoopid)

          • lilady R.N.

            She’s pathetic with her misinformation.

            Per Ms. Craig…

            “Instead they compare one vaccine with another which is nonsense. So when
            the test group gets adverse reactions they are compared with the
            so-called control group, who have received another vaccine and shown
            adverse reactions also.”

            One need only locate the product insert for Gardasil vaccine to see that there were three arms in the multiple clinical trials. There were no other vaccines administered during those clinical trials:

            https://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/g/gardasil/gardasil_pi.pdf

          • NeverRandom

            Oh yes – and it is definitely sound science to COMBINE the outcomes of the SALINE placebo arm with those of the ALUMINUM ADJUVANT arm and report them as one result against the HPV vaccine results…If YOU read the link, maybe you’d actually understand the vaccine company’s “research” proves exactly nothing, regarding the safety profile of the vaccine…

          • Mike Stevens

            “No vaccine has been tested with a Randomized Control Trial”

            A patently false claim, as a simple Google search would tell you.

            You might start with the rotavirus vaccine trials if you wish (190,000 kids participating in a randomised, double blind, placebo controlled study).

          • seniorcraig

            Oh don’t say that — Lululady will be terribly upset at how unethical that is.

          • Mike Stevens

            It’s only unethical if there is already a currently available option as treatment or prevention, silly.
            That’s why new vaccines for diseases that don’t already have a vaccine are usually tested against placebo,

          • seniorcraig

            Tell that to Lulu.

          • Mike Stevens

            She knows that. She was referring to the unethical proposal to test vaccines currently on the schedule.
            Those could not be compared to placebo, it would be highly unethical.

          • seniorcraig

            Then the testing of vaccines does not reach the Gold Standard. Period.

          • Mike Stevens

            Who set out this “Gold Standard”?
            Can you link me to its text please?

          • seniorcraig

            I am talking about RCTs of drugs.

            Who sets the standards for many things? Medical education for one?

            For me, it was Walter Spitzer, former Emeritus Professor of Epidemiology, McGill University. (Died 2006), with whom I studied in days of yore.

          • ciaparker2

            Ivan Forsch has blocked his site since this morning, I just tried to send the link to a friend so we could laugh together at the naked woman dancing on the business site of Brooke’s co-worker, but was disappointed to find that, doubtless due to our mockery of it and him, that he’s shut it off to us. The future books that will be written about this moment in history will be spell-binding, the New Mafia, the Vaccine Cartel and Prostitution Ring.

          • ciaparker2

            Keeping your head down? Very wise. A lot of weird stuff is happening, we’re going to keep ours down too.

          • Mike Stevens

            ???

            And the Gold Standard, Cia…..????

          • NeverRandom

            I LOVE it when people argue it is unethical or immoral to do a study of the life/death, and long-term overall health outcomes for fully vaccinated teens and young adults, compared to the entirely un-vaccinated teens and young adults. Um, they are ALREADY un-vaccinated or fully vaccinated; what is immoral or unethical about studying their outcomes?! What is unconscionable, immoral, and unethical is the fact NOBODY has actually performed this study (or any other study of the safety or efficacy of today’s 32 shots by 24 months of age schedule)! What is unconscionable, immoral, and unethical is claiming the “science” is final – real science is NEVER final – science evolves; that is its very mission and nature! What is unconscionable, immoral, and unethical is people who have never read the actual construct, premise, and results of the studies whose headlines they parrot from the PhRMA-funded news outlets – here’s a hint, if you can’t or won’t take the time needed to understand what a study really proves – shut your mouth, roll up your sleeve, and leave those who have done the work to their own devices…

          • Mike Stevens

            And I LOVE it when antivaxers reveal their crass stupidity by being unable to differentiate between prospective studies and retrospective studies, or between case control studies and cohort studies.

          • NeverRandom

            How does your comment even apply? PhRMA needs to present research ; anyone with a brain knows an argumentative non sequitur is the comeback of choice for two types – bullies and clueless.

          • Katia
          • Mike Stevens

            That is great Katia, pity the antivaxers won’t even read it.

          • ciaparker2

            I read it. Are you serious? It didn’t say one single thing about testing a vaccine against a placebo, the only way to demonstrate safety.

          • Mike Stevens

            Only if there is not already an available effective vaccine.
            That is why rotavirus and HPV vaccines could be tested against placebo. But you wouldn’t now test say measles vaccine against placebo – that would be unethical.

            You know this Cia.
            Surely you can’t have forgotten this so soon after I explained it to you before?
            Is your memory really that bad?

          • ciaparker2

            Oh, of course, much better to kill and disable children than to test the safety of the vaccine you’re about to give them. You can’t be serious. Measles is GOOD for the vast majority of children to get. The LEAST you could do would be to test it against a placebo to see how many of the children who didn’t get it or any other vaccine got autism, asthma, peanut allergy, seizure disorders, bowel disease, etc. etc., as compared to the number of vaxed children who got these conditions.
            My memory is excellent, but your explanations leave a lot to be desired in the way of honesty and candor. As in the present instance, you’ve been insisting for weeks that vaccines ARE tested against a true placebo, and now you’re admitting that they’re not.

          • Jack Sprat

            Moderators; please this is ridiculous!

            ciaparker2 continues to post medical advocacy: “Measles is GOOD for the vast majority of children to get.”

            This blatantly contravenes Terms of Usage by Disqus and Discover.

          • lilady R.N.

            She’s also on record, multiple times, when she is on her frequent commenting binges, as hoping her special needs child contracts measles.

          • lielady, R.N. BS

            Speaking of frequent commenting binges, where’s the science in yours?

          • Mike Stevens

            No, I was suggesting that some vaccines are tested against placebo.
            Recall you claimed that “No vaccines are tested against placebo”? Your memory failing again?
            I showed you that some were, proving you wrong.
            However, for the reasons explained, not all are.

      • kkloor

        Fascinating.

      • JH

        LisaL, if you want evidence there’s more than enough. What you need to do is GO FIND IT YOURSELF.

    • JH

      ARI: That’s absolutely nuts.

      If there were significant “adverse reactions” to vaccines, it would jump out at us just as quick as the mini measles outbreak did – a mere 100ish cases.

      There are very, very few or no significant adverse reactions to vaccines. THATS why you don’t see any of them in the news.

      • ciaparker2

        There are significant adverse reactions, but most of them do not manifest immediately the way anaphylactic reactions do. But they still wind up causing autism, seizure disorders, asthma, allergies, bowel disease, etc.

        • JH

          Right. They manifest so it’s impossible to tell that they’re there! The same way unicorns manifest.

    • Nom de Plume

      Actually, adverse reactions are noted during vaccination trials. These are always weighed against the risk of the disease or complications from the disease the vaccine protects against.

      A good example exists with vaccines for diseases found in other parts of the world, but not the US. Here, the risk of contracting the disease is so low that the risk of reaction outweighs the benefits of the vaccination. But if someone is traveling to that part of the world, then vaccination is often suggested because now there is a risk the traveler will come in contact with the disease.

      • Skeptologist

        But if all stopped vaccinating ourselves, the risk of contracting vaccine preventable diseases would quickly go up.

        • Nom de Plume

          Exactly. In this case I was thinking of diseases not normally encountered in the US, or no longer encountered in the US. For example, I picked the Ivory Coast at random and found that Yellow Fever vaccine is recommended. Yellow Fever once was a huge problem in parts of the US, but as this is no longer the case, vaccinations for it are not common in this country. Checking Laos, the Japanese Encephalitis vaccine is recommended if staying over a month. And so on.

          Since these diseases aren’t regularly encountered in the US, they are not part of the standard US immunization schedule. What the anti-vaxxers fail to notice is:

          1. Vaccines where possible risk outweighs the benefits are normally discouraged. The risks are well known and are known to be slight compared to the diseases they protect against. Thus the risk of one can be compared to the risk of the other.

          2. If the issue was “big pharma,” these vaccines and more would be pushed as part of routine inoculations.They aren’t.

          • Skeptologist

            Gotcha. Makes sense to me. I’ve taken the same approach when travelling.

    • Skeptologist

      There are controlled studies done with new vaccines before approval.

    • Katia

      Your pediatrician is full of it! And anyone can report to VAERS; you don’t have to be a pediatrician or any kind of health care provider. Do you really think a parent who believes his/her child was injured by a vaccine is going to just say “oh, well?”

      As for some numbers, you might be interested in these:
      In Colorado in 2013, $29MILLION to treat vaccine-preventable diseases in kids up to age 19. $29thousand, 1000X less, to treat immunization reactions.
      http://www.denverpost.com/News/Local/ci_27483375/Report:-Low-vaccination-rates-in-Colorado-result-in-illnesses-costs

      • NeverRandom

        Since adverse events are rarely recognized – these statistics are of little use. The cost, to date, for a local child’s adverse reaction to vaccination: $1.8M – significantly greater than any hospital visit for a “vpd.”

        • Katia

          Oh, what a total crock of compost! If your kid were having an adverse reaction, wouldn’t you take him/her in for treatment. I see you have no link for this stat of yours. We’re just supposed to believe you, LOL!

          • http://lnkd.in/br3EkfM Brooke Dunne
          • Proponent

            Lol.. and.. some more lolol.

          • NeverRandom
          • Zogby
          • NeverRandom

            Actually, Katia & Proponent – I can tell you EXACTLY what happens when your 14 week- old suffers a severe adverse reaction to vaccination…First, you call the pediatrician, panicked, multiple times over the first 24 hours post-vaccine; each time you call, with progressive symptoms, like non-stop shrieking for many hours, then limp, comatose “sleep,” then loss of motion in the legs, and loss of eye gaze, then fixed staring episodes – with each call, you are informed these are “normal” reactions to vaccination,” and are referred to the Vaccine Information Statement, which basically informs you that severe adverse events almost never happen, and lists all of the things you are seeing as “mild” or “moderate” events requiring a call or visit to the doctor (odds are good you have no idea there is a far more descriptive informational statement available in the Prescribing Information for doctors, which is included with each of the 4 vaccines your child just received, nor that those will clearly detail the harm your child might suffer in a more straight-forward manner than the VIS the Government deems “informed consent -” which whitewashes the risks and plays-up the benefits of the shots.But, eventually, after about a week of terrifying issues, which the doctor’s receptionist insists are “normal” because they are listed as such in the VIS, you arrive at a symptom that, even the VIS, considers “serious.” You take the child to the hospital, with the VIS and try to explain the week of hell you have been through as your child arches his back and shrieks in the same high-pitched wail you have been trying to calm any way possible for four hours. Eventually, a physician makes it into your exam room. You have no idea the doctor looking at your child is a generalist with no education at all, regarding vaccine injury, nor is he even a pediatrician – you are relieved to finally have someone look at your child. He attempts to approach with an otoscope, but succeeds only at several inches distance to look into your child’s ears, while you hand over the VIS that says this could be a severe adverse event. The generalist gives you a scathing glare, wads-up the VIS, tosses it into the trash, declares your child has an ear infection (despite blood and urine showing only inflammation, no infection), prescribes amoxil and more Tylenol (which you have been dosing since the vaccines, per the VIS), and dismisses you. Do YOU know what Guillian Barre or encephalomyelitis look ilike in a 14 week old baby? You take your child home, where he continues precipitous decline, and keep bringing your child to the pediatrician who ignores your concerns. Your child’s head has zoomed from the 50% to the 99%, but nobody seems to care. Your previously, perfectly healthy, child never recovers, and is left with epilepsy, metabolic dysfunction leading to mitochondrial insufficiency, antibodies to brain endothelium, and antibodies to Myelin Basic Protein, hypotonia, chronic encephalopathy, GI dysfunction leading to chronic, putrid diarrhea up to 14x a day, failure to thrive, and global developmental delay. It takes YEARS, but eventually you are able to get referrals to specialists who look at the behaviors your child manifests from the pain he is suffering, and call the behaviors “Severe Autism.” You are told your 2 year old child will never speak with intent or toilet train and that you should put him on a wait-list for institutional care because he will soon grow to uncontrollable to have in your home (and there is at least a three-year wait-list for this care); the doctor scoffs when you ask if maybe bagging groceries would be possible for your child as an adult and says, “no way.” You are then dismissed to go home with your “Autism.” You, then, out of desperation, begin the long, slow process of understanding what is really wrong with your child, and begin hemorrhaging cash to provide treatment for the biomedical issues causing your child’s “Autism.” By the time your child is biochemically functioning reasonably enough the pain receded somewhat, and some of the worst behaviors lessen, you have spent more than you had in the bank, retirement accounts, inheritances, salaries, and fundraisers. But your child has lost 5 years of valuable learning opportunity. Since the brain injury is permanent, and has injured the frontal and temporal lobes, and the hippocampus – intensive 1:1 training, breaking every task down to its tiniest components, and teaching step-wise, is required in order for your child to learn any new word, task, or skill. So, in addition to the carefully controlled diet, supplementation to normalize your child’s biochemistry, and extraordinary effort you make to care for your child and keep him safe (he doesn’t understand the danger in jumping into a body of water or running into a roadway, nor can he tell anyone his name or address if he is lost (he likes to escape through doors or windows if unattended for even a moment), you must pay for 25 – 35 hours of 1:1 therapy each week. You must pay for the therapy, the supplements, and special allergen-free diet out-of-pocket – these are not covered by insurance, nor are these expenses seen in hospital bills – so they are not counted in your “research.” Further, the human cost of parenting “Autism” are incalculable, as are the human costs of growing up “Autism.” The figure I provided, $1.8M is not seen in any study, because nobody researches the devastating result of vaccine injury; nobody follows-up after a VAERS report is made, long-term (they do verify with the pediatrician, and hospital, the event, but this is it).This is the amount shown in the receipts in our file drawers – and this investment is yielding a teenager who is toilet trained, fully verbal, able to participate at grade-level (with directed subject matter – learning only the core facts, and is provided study guides to complete and study that only reflect material for tests, and a 1:1 tehrapist 25 hours a week, every week, after school hours to teach the material through mass trials) in mainstream classes. Our child will never be entirely independent, but we seek to maximize potential and safety while minimizing outward behaviors that people call “Autism.” My child suffered a sever adverse event from vaccination – it was misdiagnosed in my child’s medical record; the sequela are serious, life-long, and life-altering. My child lost a chance at a typical and pain-free childhood and my child lost the opportunity for an independent and pain-free adulthood. My spouse and I have lost our ability to retire at 70, despite saving since our teens. Our other children lost their own typical childhood and will get no help for college or cars or starting their adult lives. $1.8M in the first 14 years post-vaccine-injury. If you think this unusual – take a look at the Poling settlement from vaccine court – Hannah’s family was one of the lucky few, recognized and compensated by vaccine “court -” luckily for Hannah, her dad is a neurologist and mom is an RN and attorney…LOL? Yeah, I think not.

          • Katia

            I am sorry for your problems.

          • NeverRandom

            Thank you, Katia. I am sorry I was not provided fully informed consent before allowing my child to receive the shots; at least then, I would have been aware of the risks as well as the benefits of undertaking these medical procedures. I might have decided the risk was worth it, and still vaccinated – but at least if I had,I would have nobody to blame but myself, if my child ended up with the vaccine injury that resulted…Frankly, though, having spent over a decade in classes and researching, I can see that vaccination is not immunization, that studies purported to demonstrate safety and efficacy are designed to show something entirely different, and that the manufacturers and administrators of these products are entirely exempt from liability in the event of injury or death; this equation leaves me certain this industry is all about making money and not at all concerned with health of their consumers.

          • Proponent

            I am not posting the following as a continued affront, NeverRandom.

            Rather.. to serve up some more background information on ADEM that you and your family is living with.. and in case you are unaware of the following association’s existence.

            “The Transverse Myelitis Association (TMA) is a not-for-profit
            international foundation dedicated to the support of children,
            adolescents, and adults with a spectrum of rare neuro-immunologic
            disorders including: Acute Disseminated Encephalomyelitis (ADEM), Acute Flaccid Myelitis (AFM), Neuromyelitis Optica (NMO), Optic Neuritis (ON) and Transverse Myelitis (TM).”

            “Post-immunization Less than 5 percent of ADEM cases follow immunization. The association between an inflammatory attack following an immunization has been temporal and the direct connection between a vaccination and an immune attack has not been established. Post-vaccinial ADEM has been associated with immunization for: rabies, hepatitis B, influenza, Japanese B encephalitis, diphtheria/pertussis/tetanus, measles, mumps, rubella, pneumococcus, polio, smallpox, and varicella. Currently, the measles, mumps, and rubella vaccinations are most commonly associated with post-vaccinial ADEM. No infectious agent is isolated in most cases. The incidence of ADEM associated with the live measles vaccination is 1 to 2 per million. Neurologic symptoms typically appear 4 to 13 days after a vaccination.”

            (Source: http://myelitis.org/about-the-transverse-myelitis-association/ )

            That you had to endure two (2) years before getting some answers.. well, not sure what to say. Anything would be an understatement.

            Your initial post that I responded to.. was devoid of the information and the story that you have (now) shared in your reply.

            It was on this note of absence of information.. that I asked for something more substantive. It did not seem unreasonable to request more, to my mind, in light of your initial assertions.

            No ‘LOL’ here.. nor, was there ever one implied or inferred.

            That said.. and for what’s it worth.. you have my sympathies.

          • NeverRandom

            Ironically – Proponent, nobody has given my child’s symptoms an official diagnosis, yet. ADEM is as good a guess as any, but try and get any diagnosis, beyond “developmental encephalopathy,” or any specialist to really dig in to identify the root causes and resolve them – nobody seems to care or even know how to begin. Sadly 1 in ~300 children is facing virtually the same struggle, today. It is a tragic waste of human potential, and, were doctors educated that vaccination can and does cause harm, and that things like IVIG, administered timely, could mitigate the harm done – and vitamins A, C, E, D, and other supplements, administered well before vaccination could support the body and lessen the odds of injury from vaccines, imagine how many fewer children would be left chronically ill, brain-injured, or dead. But no, instead PhRMA ghost-writes pithy little articles about how wonderful and safe their products are and creates a rift in the consumer population. Ultimately, every single pro-every-vaccine-for-every-person believer will pay for his belief with more years to work before retirement, an uncertain future benefit from SS (because SS pays out for every disabled person to subsist – and there are now well over 500,000 that will never be independent, in addition to the usual background number of disabled persons), in less quality time for education of his children as teachers struggle to educate the severely disabled in mainstream classrooms with little additional classroom support, in tax dollars for medicaid physician, hospital,and pharmaceutical expenses, and being forced to live out his senior years in a world shaped by many who suffered minor vaccine injury that left them less able to think, create, and become…

          • ciaparker2

            Exactly! That’s what happened to my newborn when she reacted to the hep-B vaccine at birth, given without permission and even though I had made a special trip to the pediatrician a month before she was born, ONLY to say I didn”t want her to get that vaccine, because I had read it often caused autism. And they gave it to her at midnight, without asking permission. And she reacted with four days and nights of screaming 16 hours a day. I held her and rocked her all night, for four nights. My mother took over for several hours on the last two of the four nights. At dawn she would pass out into a limp, comatose sleep as you put it, for several hours, only to wake and immediately start screaming again. My mother told the pediatrician, who just said his older daughter had suffered from colic, which wasn”t a real condition anyway in his opinion. He didn”t mention that colic never occurs in the first week of life, as this did, it doesn’t interfere with feeding, as this did, and this met the criteria for an encephalitic vaccine reaction.
            I let her get the DTaP at 2, 4, and 6 months, she caught pertussis anyway at 8 months, the pertussis was unpleasant and long-lasting, but not dangerous. She had started saying two words by 18 months, uh for up at the playground and uff for dog. Both words were erased as soon as she got the DTaP booster, and she was diagnosed with autism two months later. She’s nearly 15 now, and still very low-verbal and developmentally delayed.
            In school in the early years both her teachers and I noticed the blank staring episodes when she didn”t seem aware of her surroundings, petit mal seizures. I am more fortunate than you, that she never had more severe seizures. There”s no question but that she reacted to the vaccine with encephalitic brain damage and autism. But watch for it. Now everyone is going to say how I”m lying. So go ask the pediatrician, Dr. Douglas Boudreau.

          • Proponent

            ciaparker2: “And she reacted with four days and nights of screaming 16 hours a day.”

            And.. what did you do, ciaparker2?

            Take your child to the doctor? Emergency room?

            What happened exactly?

        • Proponent

          Here’s some food for thought for you, NeverRandom..

          “The average cost of measles cases and adverse events following vaccination in industrialised countries”

          “From the perspective of society, we estimated the average cost per
          measles case to be US$276, US$307 and US$254 for the NL, the UK and Canada, respectively, and the average cost of adverse events following immunisation per vaccinee to be US$1.43, US$1.93 and US$1.51 for the NL, UK and Canada, respectively.”

          “These average cost estimates could be combined with incidence estimates and costs of immunisation programmes to provide estimates of the cost of measles to industrialised countries. Such estimates could be used as a basis to estimate the potential economic gains of global measles eradication.”

          (Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC128813/ )

          Where is your supporting information to back up your.. assertions?

          And in case you didn’t notice.. this site does allow links to be posted.
          Arguing by assertion only.. is not convincing. Sorry.

          • ciaparker2

            I think the parents of every autistic child would much rather have risked the diseases. Very few measles cases are serious, most of those that are put in the hospital now are because of paranoia or for quarantine more than from need. The $276 is just the cost of one office visit. So don’t go to the doctor unless there are alarming symptoms from a possibly dangerous complication. Measles is nearly always a relatively mild, ultimately beneficial disease.

          • Proponent

            ciaparker2: ” Measles is nearly always a relatively mild, ultimately beneficial disease.

            Sure.. ok, then.

    • Mike Stevens

      “What we need are the US statistics on adverse reactions to vaccinations.”

      You can try the Vaccine Safety Datalink if you wish.

      Or read this:
      http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/06/26/peds.2014-1079.full.pdf

  • bpatient

    Kennedy appeared in California to claim that a preservative which was long ago removed from pediatric vaccines and which (by law) cannot be administered to young children or pregnant women in California will somehow cause a “holocaust” (apparently of autism) unless parents in California can refuse to allow their children to receive vaccines that don’t have that preservative in it. That makes sense to him, somehow.

    Kennedy is touring the country and appearing at presentations of the movie “Trace Amounts,” which is billed as “the true story of [the filmmaker’s] painful journey through mercury poisoning that he believes resulted from a thimerosal-loaded tetanus shot.” Yes, the filmmaker claims that the injection of a tuna sandwich’s worth of mercury changed his life by poisoning him as an adult. That makes sense to Kennedy, too.

    • Bearpants42

      There’s a lot of money being made by people capitalizing on moral panic.

    • sabelmouse

      keyword here is injection!

    • Jonathan Murphy

      How in the world did we eradicate scarlet fever without a vaccine?

      • ibid

        Penicillin

      • David

        Improved sanitation completely wiped out the incidence of scarlet fever. Tie and again it has been shown that this diseases were eradicated without the evil antibiotics or vaccines that have foolishly claimed credit for something they had not a hand in helping to eradicate. This is an old and repeated story through the history of medicine I urge you to consider. There is no “plague vaccine”–but why not. Ooops–same story. My Jewish ancestors were not so vulnerable since they practiced hygiene and were then murdered for not getting plague when everyone around them was getting it.

        I urge all persons on this blog to stop being scammed.

        Vaccines are neither safe nor effective. They are simply poisonous and extraneous to the claimed disease they are supposedly addressing while at the same time promoting and spreading many real diseases throughout the world. Robert Kennedy is fine to complain about mercury but that is the very tiny bit of the problem.

        I urge all parents to refuse vaccines and watch their children grow up healthy and end this cycle of disease states.

    • ciaparker2

      Coy as usual. Removed in 2002 from pediatric vaccines designed to be given mostly to children. Three years after the congressional hearing which found that thimerosal was extremely dangerous and should never be given in shots. BUT they let the vaccine companies keep marketing stores until the expiration date in 2002. And so they gave my baby the hep-B vaccine at midnight the day she was born, WITH mercury and WITHOUT permission, and she reacted with vaccine encephalitis and autism. But hey, couldn’t let that good vaccine go to waste!
      Still in most vaccines in “trace” amounts that are still say higher than the hazardous waste limit.
      AND, it’s still in most injected flu vaccines at the same amount as ever, 50 mcg thimerosal per dose, including 25 mcg mercury. And since 2004 it’s been on the recommended schedule for children six months and over. BUT since it’s not designed PRIMARILY for children, they DON’T have to take the mercury out. Our supermarket had a flyer advertising Fluzone, which said that it was recommended that pregnant women and older people get the “preservative-free” version (they didn’t want to draw people’s attention to the fact that the preservative was mercury), it said that everyone else should get the standard version (that has the full amount of mercury).
      My daughter has autism and I have MS (from a reaction to a tetanus booster which paralyzed both my arms the same day: I was later diagnosed with MS by MRI). Kennedy does well to advocate for the complete removal of mercury from vaccines (and everything else), but I wish he would go further. Aluminum is extremely dangerous as well, and any vaccine, even live ones like the MMR with no chemical ingredients, can cause the immune system to react with too much inflammation and cause vaccine encephalitis and all the kinds of brain damage that that can entail.

      • Proponent

        ciaparker2: “Our supermarket had a flyer advertising Fluzone, which said that it was recommended that pregnant women and older people get the “preservative-free” version (they didn’t want to draw people’s attention to the fact that the preservative was mercury), it said that everyone else should get the standard version (that has the full amount of mercury).”

        This was just.. just, addressed in the last couple of days.

        And is the same nonsense that you tried to pass off nearly three years ago.

        Why do you persist in outright lies, ciaparker2?

        • ciaparker2

          Someone has taken down the reply I had put here. You said I had first mentioned the flyer three years ago, when the date you included in the screen shot you had from a year and a half ago bore the date of December 2013. Schnucks put out stacks of the exact same flyer this past flu season 2014-5), so presumably has not changed its policy of recommending the mercury-free vaccine for pregnant women and older people, but thinks it’s fine for babies over six months old and children to get its mercury-containing standard version which STILL contains as much mercury as it ever did.

      • Mike Stevens

        “And so they gave my baby the hep-B vaccine at midnight the day she was born, WITH mercury”
        You don’t know that – the thimerosal stocks were almost completely replaced then, she could very easily have been given some of the new supply.
        I assume, since this was such a big thing, that you will have requested her notes, verified vaccine batch numbers, and also sued the hospital for negligently giving a vaccine against your wishes? You are a lawyer, so that would be automatic.

        • ciaparker2

          She had symptoms of mercury poisoning. And the VAERS employee called me back to say that she had called the hospital, which told her that they no longer knew the brand or batch number of the vaccine that had been used. It is illegal not to keep the record of the batch number and brand, but that’s what she said that they had said. I have her baby teeth, I’m hoping that when this all blows, I can have her teeth analyzed, I’m sure they have a lot of vaccine mercury in them.

          • Mike Stevens

            Your narrative keeps getting more and more implausible, Cia.
            1. What was the sign of “mercury poisoning”? The fact she cried? What…no chelation stimulated toxicology studies? No quack hair analysis?
            2. So they not only gave a vaccine you forbade them to give, but they forgot to document they had given it? And you still didn’t sue? Unbelieveable. Anyone would think you weren’t a lawyer, but some shelf stacker.

          • ciaparker2

            The sign of mercury poisoning was that she had a rash for several days, she sweated all over her forehead even in cool rooms for several weeks, and she drooled a lot until she was ten. And of course mercury poisoning also causes all the symptoms of autism, like echolalia, pronoun reversal, delayed or absent speech, hand or arm flapping, spinning, lining things up, loss or lack of eye contact and desire to interact with people, sleep disorders, digestive disorders, etc. etc. She had all but the spinning.
            They documented that they had given it, I asked for the hospital records, and they checked that I had given consent. I called and said Show me the form that I must have signed, I did not sign any form, and Dr. Boudreau came in to apologize for having forgotten to tell them I didn’t want it. I said show me the form, there is no form or copy of consent form in the record. The girl just said Well, I sent you everything we had. It had nothing on it about the brand or lot number, just as the VAERS girl had said. What do you want to bet that it was because they KNEW it contained mercury, since it was still legal to sell it and give it even after the congressional hearing that found it should NEVER be given with mercury? And so, if they had noted it at all, once they heard how angry I was about it, maybe they just threw away that section? I have the records, you can see them if you like, or we can request them again from the hospital so you can be assured I didn’t tamper with them. Why ELSE would they tell the VAERS girl that they no longer knew what brand or lot number it was? Yes, when this blows, I WILL have a case.

          • Jack Sprat

            I asked some time ago if you had your Hg levels (both urine and blood) checked. It is not unreasonable for transference to occur in utero, as you previously mentioned you had been exposed to it yourself. Have you?

          • Mike Stevens

            Good point, seeing how a single tuna sandwich during pregnancy would have amounted to more mercury than from the vaccine, even if it had thimerosal, which is unlikely since Cia’s child was born after the moratorium to stop thimerosal and withdraw stocks of vaccine.
            But I have no doubt that if Cia had eaten 3 tuna baguettes a day for her entire pregnancy, it would still be due to “the vaccine”

          • ciaparker2

            You appear to have forgotten that mercury-containing vaccines continued to be sold and used in the US until their expiration date in 2002. My daughter, born in 2000, was born AFTER the congressional hearing which found that the hep-B vaccine at birth and in infancy was very dangerous in itself and should never be used with mercury, as it was, but THERE WAS NO LAW TO FORCE THE VACCINE COMPANIES TO STOP SELLING IT, AND THEY DIDN’T! So they disabled my baby for life with a mercury-containing which caused vaccine encephalitis and autism. Given without permission and against my express wishes. And you know all of this. Is your memory slipping or is it just malice and pharma lies that you’re channeling?

          • Mike Stevens

            No, there were no sales of mercury containing vaccines other than multidose flu shot. When they did a stock survey of surgeries in 2002, they found a few with old unused stock, that is all.
            You have absolutely no evidence the Hep B vaccine given to your child had mercury.
            All it would take is a request to see stock records for the time your child was born, and verify that new stock was being used, or not.
            Why don’t you go do it. What is stopping you? I think you’d prefer not to know, so you can make up your own narrative as you go along. Bet she got Recombivax.

          • ciaparker2

            Thank you, I had not thought that the hospital would probably have stock records showing what brand they were using in 2000. I will call them and also write them to ask. My father used to say that if you don’t get satisfaction at one level, ask to speak to that person’s manager. It’s the case that they’re supposed to keep a record of the lot number used in perpetuity, isn’t it? I have found a homeopath in Australia who’s willing to consult with us by Skype for $130 each, which is not enough to even get you a drink of water at the Green Meadows Clinic. I could say that I need to know the lot number (to then do my own research) because, even though they got away with seriously brain-damaging my daughter, I need to know about the mercury for homeopathic detox treatment. One in London a couple of years ago told me he couldn”t treat that kind of injury, but this woman says she can.

            Oh, and about Merck not selling mercury-containing vaccines after it said in 1999 it would stop making them. SO distraught at the realization of how many babies they had killed and damaged for life with their thimerosal. Merck ADMITTED in a letter that it had continued to see it until the expiration date.

            http://momsagainstmercury.org/news/merck-mislead.htm

            And the FDA just didn’t think all those ruined lives important enough to act quickly on the realization, but dragged their feet and permitted mercury in vaccines up until 2002, in 2001 refusing to even state that vaccines shouldn’t have mercury, even after the furor in 1999 about it.

            http://vaccines.procon.org/sourcefiles/Burton_Report.pdf

            “In 1999, the FDA was criticized by some for not taking more forceful action to remove thimerosal from vaccinations; as a result of the FDA decision to s
            eek a gradual removal, many
            children continued to receive injections of the DTaP, Hib, and Hepatitis B vaccine that contained mercury well into 2001. Mercury-containing vaccines manufactured in the United States, up to
            today, continue to be administered to infants and small children in the United States and abroad. ”

          • Mike Stevens

            “When this blows, I will have a case”

            The case I wanted you to make, as a lawyer, is for professional malpractice in the hospital negligently giving a vaccine without your consent.
            Of course, you never brought that case, because I suspect you had trumped up the tale after the event to sound more “serious” than it ever was.
            The Statute of Limitations is long passed, Cia, you can’t do anything now.

  • bpatient

    I wonder if Mr. Kennedy can explain why “children with ASD as a whole have significantly elevated rates of a range of neurologic, respiratory, inflammatory, and metabolic problems in the neonatal period [birth to four weeks of age] compared to the general population,” as shown by a recent study of all children born in Denmark from 1994 through 2010, given that in Denmark children do not receive thimerosal-containing vaccines, HepB vaccine, or influenza vaccines (which are recommended only for the elderly,) and receive no vaccinations at all until three months of age–months after children who go on to be diagnosed with ASD have already shown “significantly elevated rates” of neurological problems.

    Atladóttir HÓ, Schendel DE, Parner ET, Henriksen TB. A Descriptive Study on the Neonatal Morbidity Profile of Autism Spectrum Disorders, Including a Comparison with Other Neurodevelopmental Disorders. J Autism Dev Disord. 2015 Mar 11. [Epub ahead of print]

    Of course, children later diagnosed with ASD have been previously shown to display as neonates abnormal neurological traits that will not be apparent to their parents, and, indeed, the available evidence suggests that abnormal neurodevelopment in ASD begins in mid-gestation, long before the children are exposed to the postnatal vaccines that Kennedy and others have erroneously blamed for the development of autism.

    • Walt French

      Methinks you’re thinking that logic will prevail. I’m a co-author of a paper on chemistry (tho not a real scientist) and *I* found it necessary to read your point carefully.

      Sociological studies likewise find that failed predictions—eg, the Apocalypse—cause cult members to reject outside reason even more strongly.

      If this were to be decided by simple epidemiology, as you &I the author both note, there’d be little or no debate.

      • JH

        “Methinks you believe irrationally that logic will prevail ”

        I believe that. For all practical purposes it’s prevailing now. Kennedy’s success in promoting his viewpoint from a policy perspective has been pretty much zero.

        Note also that since the (inevitable) measles outbreak provided a dose of reality, team Nutcracker is getting it’s butt kicked.

    • ciaparker2

      While mercury can certainly cause autism, it is not the only cause: vaccine encephalitis can be caused by any vaccine (think MMR, a live vaccine which has never contained mercury), just by the brain damage caused when the immune reaction to the vaccine causes inflammation of the brain, which cuts off circulation, just the way a stroke would. My baby suffered vaccine encephalitis reacting to the hep-b vaccine at birth, and was later diagnosed with autism.

      • Jack Sprat

        Genetics, autism is principally genetic.

        • sabelmouse

          it has a genetic predisposition that get’s triggered by something.

          • Proponent

            Excellent juncture to pose this question.. so, sabelmouse.. what do you think would happen to a genetically predisposed individual if they were:

            i) .. vaccinated against measles?
            ii) .. exposed to the wild measles virus?

          • sabelmouse

            nwmt to all your unsolicited replies.

          • Jack Sprat

            That is what is currently being researched. In the absence of knowledge there is an overabundance of noise.

          • sabelmouse

            ???

          • Jack Sprat

            Ah, there is only speculation into the trigger or trigger mechanism. Environmental, encompassing vaccines, is presently under the figurative microscope.

        • NeverRandom

          So, Jack, shouldn’t we look for genetic predisposition to harm BEFORE subjecting an infant to ~32 vaccination needles in its first 24 months of life?

          • Jack Sprat

            That sir, is a very good point.

      • Proponent

        ciaparker2: “My baby suffered vaccine encephalitis reacting to the hep-b vaccine at birth, and was later diagnosed with autism.”

        Fabrication.. and.. lie.

  • RobertWager

    Over a decade ago I had a rather heated discussion at a biotechnology conference with a man from a biotech company about whether it was a good thing to confront (call-out if you will) false information about GE crops and derived foods. His and his company’s position was ignore the false information. I completely disagreed. I thought and still think it is very important to challenge (with documented facts) false information each and every time it appears. Jump ahead a decade and it is very obvious to everyone how the silence approach worked out. Now fortunately the biotech industry is becoming far more public with their positions, data, and arguments in favour of this technology. It is definitely a catch-up situation for them.

    This article about anti-vaxxers seems to be a replay of my experience a decade ago.

  • mem_somerville

    Nyhan said. “I advocate naming and shaming, not just naming and shaming the public figures who mislead people but the institutions that give them platforms.”

    (In Julia Belluz’s piece)

    Huh. I feel like I’m getting conflicting information about what works. I saw a lot of distaste for shaming, by people who I’ve seen like to quote Nyhan otherwise.

    • kkloor

      Yeah, i wondered about that, too. But in fairness to Brendan, I believe he was referring to the enablers. But still, worth clarifying.

    • http://lnkd.in/br3EkfM Brooke Dunne

      Respectfully, it’s no longer just an academic discussion or about persuading a few fence-sitters to do the right thing. As I’m sure you know, there are several state legislatures considering changing their laws for exemptions from mandatory school vaccinations. A slightly different game book applies.

      What you call “Naming and shaming,” I’ve seen expressed elsewhere as, “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Let me give you an example:

      During RFK Jr’s speech in Sacramento he’s quoted as saying, “They get the shot, that night they have a fever of a hundred and three, they go to sleep, and three months later their brain is gone.”

      Thank you Robert Kennedy Jr. Children with autism are brain dead.

      Now we have an individual we can name, caught expressing in unvarnished terms one of the central pillars of the antivaxers belief system. In fact, you can find that quote on all the usual crank websites. None of them disavows it.

      There are a lot of parents, teachers and others who hear that and think, “What a horrible thing to say.” Couple that with the fact Kennedy’s Rolling Stone “bombshell” exposé was retracted 4 years ago because it was chock full o’ errors, and you can very effectively inoculate people from not only his nuttery, but the entire antivaxer argument. In fact, that’s how it played out last week in the committee vote on California SB277.

      See how that naming and shaming works?

  • lbhajdu1 .

    I was injured by a vaccine I got when I was two. It still effects me today at 35. Trying to force people into vaccines is evil. People forcing others into vaccines are selfish no matter how they try and spin it. The writer of this bilge is condescending.

    • Bearpants42

      You’re not forced to vaccinate. If you don’t want to vaccinate your kids, home school them or send them to a private school that doesn’t require it.

      • lbhajdu1 .

        What makes you think I don’t, but should I then also be required to pay double school tax for other peoples kids when mine don’t have the right to the same education.

        • Bearpants42

          Do you get to stop paying your school taxes when your kids are no longer in school?
          No.

          Do you get to stop paying your school taxes if you don’t even have kids?
          No.

          Because you’re not paying for your kids. You’re paying for everyone. Because educating children to be decent citizens is a lot cheaper than incarcerating them when they become criminals.

          • NeverRandom

            You pay your taxes for Public Schools because, this way, Public Schools are available to your children, should you CHOOSE (again, operative word) to have them…

        • Bearpants42

          For the record, I’m willing to let unvaccinated kids attend public schools so long as the parents sign a liability agreement that makes them personally financially responsible if their child ends up being a vector of transmission for a harmful virus.

          It’s only fair. If you want to hold bullshit showboating anti-science views, you should accept the consequences. If your choices end up harming or killing someone’s child, you should have to pay for it. Afterall, isn’t that what the anti-vaxxers claim they want from big pharma?

          • NeverRandom

            Excellent, Pants, then you will be signing a liability agreement stating you will be financially responsible when your child, shedding his most recent live virus vaccine, or having failed to build appropriate immunity (or having lost his artificially induced, temporary, immunity), contracts a disease and infects his peers? Done deal.

          • Bearpants42

            “Shedding his most recent live virus vaccine”
            lol, you guys kill me with this nonsense.

            It’s not the parent’s fault if the vaccine doesn’t take because they did everything they could to protect their kid and others.

            Anti-Vaxx parents deliberately do not do everything, in order to take a bullshit anti-science showboating stand. That’s the choice that requires you take responsibility.

  • NeverRandom

    The problem with the vaccine apologists, in a nutshell, is they never, ever, ever, peek behind the curtain. Since they have no idea Oz is fiction and all Oz decrees is less fact than fiction, they feel they have the right to declare the fiction fact. Vaccine apologists will never succeed in swaying the populous screaming fro informed consent, BECAUSE THEY HAVE READ THE POORLY CONSTRUCTED STUDIES, analyzed the study construct and data and found it lacking when queried regarding proof of the safety and efficacy of modern day vaccines. Until the studies are not conceived to come to a particular conclusion, and include real-world, life/death, and long-term health outcomes of teens and young adults in a fully-vaccinated versus ENTIRELY unvaccinated study, there will be dissent. Particularly because the pro-informed choice crowd has usually witnessed, first-hand, the long-term harm vaccines can cause. When facing the choice of the possibility of a week or two of illness (which grants lifelong immunity, and very, very, very rarely, lifelong sequellae) versus the rampant autoimmune and neurologic issues many see post-vaccination, which result in chronic, lifelong illness and or death, they choose what any sane person would. There is no need for an infant to get 32 shots between 8 hours and 24 months of age. Period. Well, unless you are a Pharmaceutical company…

    • lilady R.N.

      The idea that has been floated repeatedly by anti-vaccine groups which calls for a double blinded randomized vaccinated-vs-unvaccinated study is not feasible and unethical, because it would leave huge numbers of children unprotected from serious, sometimes deadly, vaccine-preventable-diseases.

      • seniorcraig

        Absolute BS. Vaccines do not reach the Gold Standard of testing a drug. Period. Never mind the tissue-soaked “unethical” nonsense. If you don’t know how the drug works, how can you possibly say children are unprotected? that has got to be the most ludicrous argument vaccine zealots come up with, and there are plenty of ludicrous arguments to choose from.

        And anyway, it’s not the test of the drug, that’s at issue. A comparison of vac vs. unvax does not need an RCT. There are plenty of unvax children to be the comparison group.

        No, you people don’t want to see that done because you know damn well the unvax group will be healthier. Two small studies have already shown that.
        IAS. Unvaccinated children are healthier. Waves, Spring/Summer, 2002.

        • L p

          The unvaccinated children would be unprotected from the diseases that the vaccines are designed to prevent. I would say that the huge drop in mortality rates from those specific diseases is a very good indication that they do exactly what they say they do.

          • http://lnkd.in/br3EkfM Brooke Dunne

            Hi L p. seniorcraig is Jennifer Craig, PhD. She’s widely regarded as a complete frigging idiot, and now has been reduced to trolling comment sections like this. Here, check out interesting article Jennifer Craig wrote on how the small pox vaccine didn’t actually eradicate small pox. It’s good for a laugh.

          • lilady R.N.

            Good for more than a laugh…with the claim that smallpox has been reclassified as chicken pox or monkey pox.

          • seniorcraig

            Can’t read, as usual, Lulubaby.

          • Mike Stevens

            Sorry, I think she meant koalapox.
            That is the disease you think smallpox is disguised as today, isn’t it?

          • seniorcraig

            Ha ha ha, you are hilarious in your ignorance.

          • Señor Craig

            I read it. From start to finish. You are a genius. Misunderestimated by your peers. Do not listen to these simple minded fools.

          • Meth Scented Shart

            My kid laid a fat turd in the toilet the other day. He was pretty proud of that too. Anybody ever tell you you’ve got the personality of a 3 year-old?

          • lilady R.N.

            Read further down to find that Ms. Craig does not believe that smallpox has never been eradicated from the face of the earth.

            She believes that another pox (chicken pox? monkey pox? squirrel pox?) was the renaming of the smallpox virus.

          • seniorcraig

            Thank you for your interest in my article. It is a pleasure to see you trying to educate yourself. However, you seem to have missed one or two points in what amounts to about 1% of the whole article. This is what I wrote. Please point out where I say chicken pox.

            In 1967 the World Health Organization (WHO) began a campaign to eradicate smallpox, a campaign that was carefully monitored. In 1979 Arita and Breman wrote “Interhuman transmission of smallpox, which continued for more than 3000 years, appears to have come to an end on 26 October 1977, when the world’s last known case developed his rash in Merca, Somalia.” 41

            The disease was officially declared eradicated on May 8, 1980. Part of the statement was, “” since there is no human carrier state of epidemiological importance and no recognised animal reservoir of the disease, the absence of clinically apparent cases in man may be assumed to signify the absence of a naturally occurring smallpox.” (Emphasis added).

            No animal reservoir? Scheibner follows a discussion about the inability to distinguish between various pox viruses “” monkeypox, whitepox, camelpox “” and the smallpox virus in the laboratory. These pox-family viruses have been known for many years but the public has been reassured that they have nothing to do with smallpox and that the human species is safe.

            Since 1970, pox viruses found in captive monkeys have been isolated in humans and a new disease, first known as ‘monkeypox’ and now ‘human monkeypox’, has materialised. So what is the difference between smallpox and monkeypox? A 1977 Lancet article informs us that, “Human monkeypox is a systemic exanthema, resembling smallpox, that occurs as a sporadic zoonosis in rural rainforest villages of western and central Africa. The disease is caused by an orthopoxvirus, which is transmitted to human beings by handling infected animals; serosurveys have implicated squirrels ” as the probable reservoir. Secondary human-to-human spread by aerosol or direct contact accounts for about 28% of cases.” 42

            ‘Exanthema’ means a rash and in this case it resembles smallpox. Apparently this look-alike smallpox is quite infectious since there were 42 cases, including 3 deaths, reported in a village with only 346 inhabitants. 43

            The difference between the smallpox virus and the human monkeypox virus is a difference in protein structure. As health authorities have never worried about the difference between cowpox virus and smallpox virus, why should they be concerned now? Concerned enough, that is, to say that monkeypox is not smallpox. They can’t have it both ways: saying the cowpox virus prevents smallpox but then denying that the monkeypox virus can cause smallpox.

            Please try and read with comprehension beyond Grade 9.

          • lilady R.N.

            You’re quoting the anti-vaccine activist Viera Scheibner, Ms. Craig?

            Really?

            You must be kidding:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viera_Scheibner

            “….The difference between the smallpox virus and the human monkeypox virus is a difference in protein structure. As health authorities have never worried about the difference between cowpox virus and smallpox virus,
            why should they be concerned now? Concerned enough, that is, to say that monkeypox is not smallpox. They can’t have it both ways: saying the cowpox virus prevents smallpox but then denying that the monkeypox virus
            can cause smallpox.”

            If only…we had some laboratory tests available to tell the differencces between zoonotic diseases and the variola (smallpox) virus….

            http://emergency.cdc.gov/agent/smallpox/diagnosis/casedefinition.asp

            Please try and read for comprehension beyond kindergarden

          • seniorcraig

            Yes I’m quoting Dr. Scheibner. Too bad her work is above your head.

            And you’re quoting wikipedia? You must be kidding.

          • lielady, R.N. BS

            “Too bad her work is above your head.”

            So’s Dr. Seuss

          • Mike Stevens

            Her work was on geology, from what I recall.
            Did she ever do any research on vaccines, or infectious diseases?
            No.

          • seniorcraig

            Your other ref starts by saying “Surveillance for a disease that does not currently exist anywhere in the world presents unique challenges.”

            Does that not strike you as ridiculous? Because smallpox has been “declared” gone, therefore it has, but what to do if a case shows up??

          • lilady R.N.

            How about opening the link I provided and scrolling down to the differential diagnosis for smallpox and the laboratory tests that are done at State Health Department reference laboratories and confirmed by the CDC laboratory?

          • seniorcraig

            How about reading my article which is about how the vaccine did not prevent smallpox and not try these diversion tactics?

          • Señor Craig

            ha ha! Excellent repartee, mi amor. But of course this pretender cannot. It is beyond her. I await the publication of your work. Indeed I cannot wait to hear which prestigious journal has accepted it.

            By the way, it is most embarrassing. Who is this Viera Scheibner?

          • Mike Stevens

            Hmmm…..Difficult choice…..
            Should we read what the virology experts say about smallpox as Lilady suggests, or read what a bone collector without any medical knowledge (let alone a specialist medical degree) says about it, as SeniorCraig suggests…???

          • Mike Stevens

            I know what to do if a case shows up – I am a member of the UK SMART team (smallpox acute response team).
            Cases of chickenpox and monkeypox don’t count, Jennifer.
            We would fast-track samples to Colindale for immediate analysis. Fortunately they have virologists who actually know about viruses, and we don’t have to rely on the opinion of a decrepit retired bone collector who has never seen down a microscope, and who wouldn’t know a PCR primer from her elbow.

          • seniorcraig

            What’s a bone collector? An archaeologist?

          • Mike Stevens

            Well, seems like she looked at crystalised bone fragments in geological formations.
            Micropalaeontology.

          • seniorcraig

            Are you referring to Viera Scheibner? You talk in riddles.

            It doesn’t really matter what names you hurl or what she did in her life. One amazing thing she did is a review of the medical literature that resulted in “Vaccination. 100 years of orthodox research show that vaccines represent a medical assault on the immune system.”

            Now i suppose you’re going to say a Ph.D. can’t do a literature review without looking down a microscope. But that’s vaccine zealots for you — can’t deal with the information but have to attack the messenger. Tell me, do you all learn that in your training?

          • Mike Stevens

            Anyone can publish a book.
            Can she tell the difference between the pox viruses?

          • seniorcraig

            I never mentioned chickenpox, Lulu did. But i am interested in how you distinguish monkeypox from smallpox seeing, according to the CDC, the s&s are the same.

          • Mike Stevens

            The diseases are superficially similar, but monkeypox is less severe. It also causes lymphadenopathy which you don’t get with smallpox. There is usually a history of contact with primates, and testing readily distinguishes the 2 viruses if there is still some concern.

            Any other questions?

          • seniorcraig

            Yes. If someone shows up with the S&S of smallpox and no lymphadenopathy, how would you make the dx? If it’s on the basis of which pox virus, how come this matters when the distinction between cowpox and smallpox didn’t?

          • Mike Stevens

            You’d fast track pustule fluid for PCR testing, and pray like hell it’s not variola

            In the US, they’d want you to fill in one of these, too.
            http://emergency.cdc.gov/agent/smallpox/diagnosis/pdf/spox-patient-eval-wksheet.pdf

          • seniorcraig

            Does PCR testing distinguish between the various pox viruses? If so, what are the differences? How many pox viruses are there?

          • Mike Stevens

            You can look this up you know.
            Of course it tells the difference between viruses.

            Tell you what, you can sign up for an online workshop series if you wish to know more about smallpox diagnosis.
            https://www.aphlnet.org/eweb/DynamicPage.aspx?webcode=EventInfo&RegPath=EventRegFees&REg_evt_key=1ef191b7-5623-4a88-aba6-d2e948c12f83
            I believe they are still running, despite the datestamp being for 2012.

          • seniorcraig

            Thank you.

            I notice the course description says ” Newly recognized monkeypox, vaccinia and cowpox infections often present as diagnostic dilemmas. Other poxvirus infections of humans, such as Molluscum contagiosum and parapoxvirus infections continue to cause protracted human disease. Differentiation of smallpox from other vesicular rash illnesses, such as varicella zoster may pose diagnostic challenges. Therefore, this six module program was developed by professionals for professionals, in order to provide education and insight into the world of poxviruses, their disease characteristics, and the methods utilized to provide accurate diagnoses.”

            Which is more or less what I said in my article and was subsequently subjected to derision by Lulu and her gang.

            SO, although smallpox has been ‘declared’ eradicated, we cannot be blase. Other poxes, such as monkeypox, with virtually the same signs and symptoms as smallpox, are still around.

            Mike, I don’t see koala bear pox listed.

          • Mike Stevens

            Yeah, as we say, to an uneducated individual, the diseases may appear similar.
            Your ridiculous notion was that smallpox exists, masquerading as these other pox viruses, and that none of the experts even has a clue.

            I am glad that following your 6 module “education” you will come to realise the error of your idea.

          • seniorcraig

            Here’s the CDC uneducated view: “What are the signs and symptoms of monkeypox?

            In humans, the signs and symptoms of monkeypox are like those of smallpox, but usually they are milder. Another difference is that monkeypox causes the lymph nodes to swell.

            About 12 days after people are infected with the virus, they will get a fever, headache, muscle aches, and backache; their lymph nodes will swell; and they will feel tired. One to 3 days (or longer) after the fever starts, they will get a rash. This rash develops into raised bumps filled with fluid and often starts on the face and spreads, but it can start on other parts of the body too. The bumps go through several stages before they get crusty, scab over, and fall off. The illness usually lasts for 2 to 4 weeks.”

            “Your ridiculous notion was that smallpox exists, masquerading as these other pox viruses, and that none of the experts even has a clue.” I didn’t say that.

            Seems to me the difference is in the words of the diagnosis. If you have all the signs and symptoms of smallpox but the diagnosis is monkeypox, what the hell does that matter to the patient?

            “It’s okay, Mr. Smith. You haven’t got small pox because Dr. Stevens has said it’s non-existent. You’ve got monkeypox. You’re going to die anyway but at least you know it wasn’t from smallpox.”

            Get off it.

          • Mike Stevens

            You have a choice.
            Go around claiming smallpox still exists and is rife on the planet, or go on the education module.

          • seniorcraig

            this is a great ploy to deviate from the main point of my article which is that vaccination did not great of smallpox. Repeat, vaccination did not get rid of smallpox.

            What i actually said, that you have misinterpreted is: The difference between the smallpox virus and the human monkeypox virus is a difference in protein structure. As health authorities have never worried about the difference between cowpox virus and smallpox virus, why should they be concerned now? Concerned enough, that is, to say that monkeypox is not smallpox. They can’t have it both ways: saying the cowpox virus prevents smallpox but then denying that the monkeypox virus can cause smallpox.

            Clinically, the diseases are the same. Even the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) on its webpage admit that the signs and symptoms of monkeypox are like those of smallpox. They go on to say that the death rate in Africa is 1-10% but the risk would be lower in the US because of better nutrition and hygiene. It is odd that they’ve never acknowledged the role of nutrition and hygiene before “” but that was when they were advocating vaccination.

            One benefit that has resulted from the declaration that smallpox has been eradicated is that vaccination is no longer mandatory or advocated. So that is something to be thankful for.

            Good bye.

          • Mike Stevens

            For heaven’s sake… the diseases are similar, not “the same”. (In the same way meningococcal meningitis is similar to pneumococcal meningitis, for instance).

            They are both caused by pox viruses, but they are different viruses and readily distinguished virologically.
            Pretending smallpox still exists is plain crazy.

            Are you sure you aren’t a pharma shill paid to post stuff here to make the antivax kooks seem like total wingnuts? If you are, you deserve a raise.

          • seniorcraig

            I have a third choice. Bugger off.

          • Mike Stevens

            No… That would be my choice, not yours.

            (PS: I won’t)

          • seniorcraig

            Mike Stevens is ignoring the point of my article,
            http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2010/02/26/smallpox-vaccine-origins-of-vaccine-madness/
            is to show that vaccines did not get rid of smallpox.

            Deviation from the point is a common tactic of vaccine zealots.

          • Mike Stevens

            Go back to your first comment in this thread. You were asking about distinguishing monkeypox and smallpox.
            I have scrupulously remained on topic throughout.
            Now your excuses have run dry, you accuse me of “deviating” from some original point you made in some article you wrote?

          • lilady R.N.

            I actually was part of the Emergency Preparedness Team at the local department of health, during the run up to the WMDs scare.

            I was among a small group of nurses and doctors who volunteered in my State to receive the New York City Department of Health Dryvax smallpox vaccine. (Dryvax smallpox vaccine was the only vaccine in use in the United States for childhood smallpox vaccinations up to 1972 when the CDC removed smallpox vaccine from the Recommended Childhood Vaccine). Dryvax was also used for travelers to foreign countries, until shortly before the WHO declared smallpox eradicated from the face of the earth.

            Only a small number of doctors and nurses from each hospital received the vaccine from out team; members of the armed services received Dryvax as well.

            There are now 3 smallpox vaccines in the nation’s stockpile and the nation is well-prepared for any medical emergency:

            http://nacchopreparedness.org/?p=4507

          • lielady, R.N. BS

            You always have these unverifiable anecdotes to back up your claims…you’re own, built-in appeal from authority.

          • lielady, R.N. BS

            Did you notice how in an earlier comment she was complaining of cherry-picking, and here she is doing the same?

          • Mike Stevens

            Mousepox? Goatpox? Camelpox? Koalapox?
            Is there any imaginary disease Craig will not use to disseminate her lies?

            I am sure that the reliance for virology expertise on a long-retired failed paleontologist has nothing to do with the idiocy of the claims?

          • seniorcraig

            The huge drop in mortality rates took place BEFORE vaccines were introduced.

            http://www.dissolvingillusions.com/graphs

            You cannot argue that a vaccine protects against anything unless it has been tested following the gold standard of all other drugs.

        • Nom de Plume

          The cemeteries say otherwise.

      • NeverRandom

        I LOVE it when people argue it is unethical or immoral to do a study of the life/death, and long-term overall health outcomes for fully vaccinated teens and young adults, compared to the entirely un-vaccinated teens and young adults. Um, they are ALREADY un-vaccinated or fully vaccinated; what is immoral or unethical about studying their outcomes?! What is unconscionable, immoral, and unethical is the fact NOBODY has actually performed this study (or any other study of the safety or efficacy of today’s 32 shots by 24 months of age schedule)! What is unconscionable, immoral, and unethical is claiming the “science” is final – real science is NEVER final – science evolves; that is its very mission and nature! What is unconscionable, immoral, and unethical is people who have never read the actual construct, premise, and results of the studies whose headlines they parrot from the PhRMA-funded news outlets – here’s a hint, if you can’t or won’t take the time needed to understand what a study really proves – shut your mouth, roll up your sleeve, and leave those who have done the work to their own devices…

  • Maurinemeleck

    This article is filled with misleading statements like: copious amounts of mercury in most flu vaccines recommended for pregnant women and children over 6 months. And this author should be held accountable for misleading information. And yes, drug companies and the CDC are attached at the wallet. This dude lives in a bubble or has read nothing about vaccine injuries

    • bpatient

      Amazingly, in countries where influenza vaccines (whether or not they contain thimerosal) are not administered to children or pregnant women, the prevalence of ASD mirrors that in the US, and is markedly greater than it was when exposure to thimerosal-containing vaccines was much greater. The “thimerosal caused an epidemic of autism” meme has been dead for years.

      For example, the incidence and prevalence of autism-like disorders in Denmark began to rise in the late 1980s, and the rate of increase accelerated in the early 1990s as exposure to thimerosal-containing vaccines decreased and then was eliminated. The prevalence of ASD in Denmark following the elimination of thimerosal has been repeatedly reported as higher than that prevalence before the elimination of thimerosal. Similarly, the prevalence of ASD in California and in other study sites (e.g., Iceland) continues to climb years after exposure to thimerosal was curtailed.

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12880876

      Similarly, a study that included all of the half-million children born in Denmark in a seven year period showed that there was no difference in the prevalence of ASD between the groups that did and did not receive thimerosal-containing vaccines.

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14519711

      • Maurinemeleck

        you people are full of hazel nuts. The Denmark study has even been repudiated by the CDC. You ought to keep up to date. I know you are trying to say that mercury injected into an infant decreases their chances of getting autism.

        • bpatient

          You seem to be confused by the fact that there are many more than just a single “Denmark study.” Perhaps you should discuss this with someone who regularly reads and can understand the biomedical literature, which emphatically refutes your position.

          • joejoev1 .

            All based on rigged studies, no one believes anything a shill as yourself has to say.

          • L p

            And you’ve just proved the point that some people refuse to be convinced no matter what. What exactly WOULD it take to change your mind? If you aren’t willing to accept the mounds of existing studies? If you don’t accept the science now why would you accept any future studies? Is there ANYTHING that would be convincing that vaccines are safe?

          • lilady R.N.

            You’re replying to a conspiracist who haunts science blogs and whose sole purpose is to insult other commenters.

          • lielady, R.N. BS

            Is he responding to you?

          • joejoev1 .

            So what about over 500 hundred studies in Kennedy’s book showing autism link and symptoms all peer reviewed? You contradicted yourself, studies showing a link, and you say science won’t change my mind no matter what, it just show’s your hipocracy, lack of education, very shameful on your part.

        • bpatient

          BTW, given your fixation on the failed autism-related memes of thimerosal in particular and vaccines in general, could you please indicate why the prevalence of ASD in Iceland is like that in the US, where:

          1. As in other countries where exposure to thimerosal-containing vaccines has been dramatically curtailed, the prevalence of ASD continued to increase after thimerosal was banned.
          2. “Too many too soon” is again refuted: (a) children in Iceland receive ½ the vaccines given in the US, but the prevalence of ASD in the two countries is comparable; (b) the vaccination schedule in Iceland is generally somewhat delayed compared to the US schedule
          3. The anti-vaxxer’s goalpost-shifting “it’s the aluminum!” cry must account for how half as many vaccines in Iceland provide as much aluminum as is instilled by the US schedule–although, of course, the fact that children receive much more aluminum via intake of breast milk or formula than they get from vaccines might be a problem
          4. The “it’s the birth dose of the dreaded HepB vaccine” that causes ASD meme is of course refuted by the fact that babies in Iceland are not vaccinated–ever–against HepB.
          5. Note that children and pregnant women in Iceland don’t receive influenza vaccines, which might contain thimerosal.

          [Saemundsen E
          et al. Prevalence of autism spectrum disorders in an Icelandic birth
          cohort. BMJ Open. 2013; 3(6): e002748.]

          • joejoev1 .

            Lies and missrepresentation, which is what the vaccine program us based on.

          • Nom de Plume

            No, it’s based on all the tiny graves in old cemeteries. An old undertaker, circa 1990s, was asked what was the biggest change he’s seen, and he answered he didn’t see as many small caskets. You can thank vaccines for that.

          • joejoev1 .

            yes nutrition has got better, not vaccines, wake up.

          • Nom de Plume

            I grew up beside a cemetery, and will always remember the graves of an entire family, from the smallest to the parents, who died from disease. I know from talking to the old timers who knew them and the sad story behind those graves.

            I’ve also know those who grew up in fear of Polio and Smallpox, who heard the distinctive cough that gives Whooping Cough its name, who nearly died from contracting measles in adulthood.

            To put it politely, you don’t have a clue.

          • Mike Stevens

            Has it? I thought nutrition and diet had worsened overall. Many diseases are now of dietary origin.

          • joejoev1 .

            Famine is whay we don’t see much, also foods have been fortified with vitamins and minirals.

          • Mike Stevens

            I have it on good authority that nutrition was better in the 1960s than it is now.
            Talk of “famine” in the US doesn’t cut the mustard.
            The reason people died was the infections. Poor nutrition will make them more vulnerable, that is all.

          • joejoev1 .

            And antibiotics eliminate infections, not vaccines, what’s your point.

          • Mike Stevens

            Antibiotics treat infections.
            Vaccines prevent infections.

          • ciaparker2

            You need to read Dissolving Illusions, by Dr. Suzanne Humphries, on the reasons why death rates from contagious diseases plummeted between the nineteenth century and the early twentieth century. Your old undertaker is a mythical figure, even when he was young there was no longer a high rate of child or infant deaths from any disease in the US.

        • bpatient

          Please provide a link to CDC in which the agency indicates that “the Denmark study has even been repudiated by the CDC.”

          Thanks.

          • joejoev1 .

            What a joke.

          • Mike Stevens

            Of course she can’t provide a link. She was lying.

      • joejoev1 .

        Rigged outcome, said it all along.

    • lilady R.N.

      You’ve already been informed, dozens of times, that the ACOG (American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists), concurs with the CDC and AAP recommendations for pregnant women to receive a seasonal influenza vaccine. Here, again the ACOG statement about influenza vaccines, with a list of studies about better pregnancy outcomes for the mother and the fetus she is carrying. The ACOG Policy Committee is fully informed about Thimerosal which is not an issue for pregnant women of their fetuses…or for any other vaccine recipient.

      Vaccine.Do.Not.Cause.Autism.Period

      http://www.acog.org/Resources-And-Publications/Committee-Opinions/Committee-on-Obstetric-Practice/Influenza-Vaccination-During-Pregnancy

      P.S. You’ve been posting these same comments on the People Magazine blog and I provided the 70 % availability of Thimerosal-free vaccines for the current seasonal influenza vaccine.

      • NeverRandom

        Wow – and we should just BELIEVE; because, who needs studies to determine if the vaccine is actually safe for mother and fetus? You do understand the Prescribing Information clearly states they have NOT studied the use of vaccine in Pregnancy? So, like, this makes these women guinea pigs…BTW fetal demise SKYROCKETED after this policy went into play. And, oh yeah, they have never studied administration of 32 vaccine shots in 24 months to determine whether it causes Autism, so it is disingenuous to state vaccines don’t cause Autism – nobody knows if they do or they don’t until this has been studied…

    • L p

      “copious amounts of mercury”? Really?

      • Bearpants42

        A kid gets more mercury into his system by playing outside in the dirt for 20 minutes than what he got in any vaccine.

        • NeverRandom

          Pants – you are so right, I mean, really, there is no difference between being exposed to a toxic substance through normal mucus pathways, designed to filter toxic elements and protect the body, versus bypassing the body’s natural defenses by injecting the toxic element directly into the tissues….Clearly, it’s all the same – just like it is perfectly fine to either apply purell to your hands or inject it into the deltoid – it’s all the same thing, really.

          • Bearpants42

            To continue your sarcastic retort, there’s no difference between any types of mercury, they’re all exactly the same and turn you into a drooling mess upon contact. ALL OF THEM…

            On a more serious note, chemistry and molecular structure of these substances matter. Just because it has mercury in the name doesn’t mean it’s going to turn you into a drooling mess upon contact.

      • NeverRandom

        Just because the EPA says 25 mcg of mercury must be disposed of as hazardous waste, that doesn’t mean it should be considered copious when we are injecting it into people’s bodies,,,I mean, really, the nerve of people; they should be grateful they are getting injected with one of the most toxic substances known to man!

    • Katia

      What a crock of compost! 2/3 of the flu vaccines manufactured in the US are mercury-free!

      • NeverRandom

        Surely, it is a total crock, Katia! It’s not like EVERYONE is being injected with mercury, right? I mean, we are only injecting mercury into 33% of the population, so, who cares?!

  • joejoev1 .

    Kloor is a bought shill, this is easy to see, watch trace amounts and then ask yourself who do you believe? you then will see for yourself and never trust a word that comes out of that pharma mouth again, which is in fact mostly lies. Kloor has no credibilty as a reporter as well, his sole purpose is to smear, lie, coverup the truth, which doesn’t buy him respect.

    • Skeptologist

      If you want to be taken seriously, don’t throw your hat in the anti-vaxxer camp.

      • joejoev1 .

        Over 500 studies proving Kennedy’s point in his book, how can one take you as credible? You’re morevof a joke speaking like that.

        • Skeptologist

          Yeah, I’m one of those weird people who prefer to get health advice from actual experts instead of celebrities.

          • NeverRandom

            Some of us taught the celebrities how to help their children, after the “actual experts” cause severe, lifelong harm to their children.

      • lilady R.N.

        I should have warned you about joejoe who is now going to evoke G-d for his arguments against vaccines. He has a sense of entitlement and he seems to think that the Vaccine Court is a social welfare program.

      • NeverRandom

        If one wants to be taken seriously, one should demonstrate an ability to use logic, reason, and critical thinking skills to communicate meaningful information; the “camp” in which one pitches a tent should be a solidly researched foundation along with the ability to consider facts outside one’s realm of comfort.

        • Skeptologist

          Yep. That’s why I accept the science behind vaccination.

    • Bearpants42

      So if we watch some propaganda we’ll believe you? Promise?

      What do I get if I watch it and still laugh at the anti-science nonsense pushed by people taking advantage of moral panic?

      • joejoev1 .

        Well, if you laugh at what you see, there is a lot wrong with you, and only God could help you.

        • Bearpants42

          Yes, it is quite distressing to see the suffering of children exploited by snake oil salesmen and con artists.

          • NeverRandom

            Exploited how, exactly? Is someone making money off of the unfortunate disabled children who were vaccine injured? Oh, you mean the pharmaceutical companies who fulfill the myriad prescriptions these children must take each day, and the doctors, and specialists, who each collect fees for each and every visit these children must have to obtain refills for their prescription drugs, and care for their chronic symptoms, and expensive laboratory tests which insurance companies don’t pay for…You are right – these poor kids really ARE being exploited! It probably would have been better if we hadn’t vaccinated them into chronic disease.

          • ione murphy

            The US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) is faulting 3 pharmaceutical companies for not complying with a federal law that requires them to study their products in children.

            The FDA chided the companies in noncompliance letters mailed out this spring. The letters were posted on the FDA Web site August 27, along with responses from the pharmaceutical companies.

            In a blog post on the agency’s Web site, an administrator in the FDA’s Center for Drug Evaluation and Research (CDER) said the letters demonstrate “our ongoing commitment to get these studies done for the benefit of all infants and children.”

            Before the passage of PREA and a similar 2002 law called Best Pharmaceuticals for Children Act, which financially rewards companies for conducting pediatric studies, more than 80% of drugs approved for adults also were used in children even though their effectiveness and safety in that population had not been determined, according to Dr. Yao.

            “We all know that children are not just small adults,” said Lynne Yao, MD, associate director of the pediatric and maternal health staff in CDER’s Office of New Drugs. “Many changes occur in children as they grow and develop that can affect how a drug works. In fact, some drugs that may work in adults may not work at all in children. There may be different safety concerns compared to when they are used in adults, or they may need to be given in a different dose.”

            http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/810124

          • Bearpants42

            I mean the people who sell homeopathic cures for autism, and charge you money for memberships to their tinfoil websites.

            So eager to create these fantasies in your head of grand conspiracies, you can’t see the scammers right in front of you.

          • NeverRandom

            So, if PhRMA sells me an SSRI that masks behaviors of Autism, while allowing on-going neurologic harm – this is ok, but if I buy a sugar pill that offers the same result for 1% of the price of PhRMA’s product, I am somehow being scammed? One does not need to “join” to obtain homeopahics – they are readily available mail-order, in stores, or even at home; I can create a homeopathic remedy, called a nosode, with only pure water, a glass, a dropper bottle, and a small bottle and lid (in other words, FREE), with no membership and no outside intervention at all. So if that’s all you’ve got, you clearly haven’t anything…

          • Bearpants42

            Why do you have to do either one? Are you obligated to waste your money on non-cures to your problems?

          • Bearpants42

            No drug/vaccine is 100% perfect. Setting that standard would make all of us dead at 30 like the good ol days before modern medicine. The risk of harm in a vaccine is so small that you are more likely to get struck by lightning.

            That being said, when you vaccinate millions of people, You roll the dice millions of times. Some are unfortunately going to suffer the side effects. That’s why those people are supported.

            There’s no perfect cure to the ills of the world. Stop demanding one to justify your paranoia.

          • NeverRandom
          • Bearpants42

            About what?

          • NeverRandom

            Pants – it would seem your ilk is demanding a cure for the world’s ills – my team simply eats well, exercises, sleeps adequately, and drinks pure water – we have no need of PhRMA’s 70 year drug plan, nor fear of illness…

          • Bearpants42

            …and reopen polio wards so little kids can grow up crippled. You think Healthcare costs are insane now? Just wait.

          • NeverRandom

            First off, Pants, IPV does not prevent the transmission of Poliovirus. Secondly, after the OPV was introduced, Polio incidence went UP 50%. And, thirdly, for the majority who contract Polio, it is a mild illness they do not even know they have (meaning, you could have it at this moment and have absolutely no idea… http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/polio/dis-faqs.htm

          • Bearpants42

            Are you really going to suggest that we shouldn’t have eradicated Polio in almost every portion of the planet?

            I know anti-vaxxers are off the rails, but this is getting pathetic.

          • NeverRandom

            Kep – in case you didn’t know. There is STILL Polio – it is now vaccine-strain (for the most part), and named either “Vaccine Associated Paralytic Polio” or “Acute Flaccid Paralysis.” In places like India and Africa, there are hundreds of cases…

          • Kepler 48k

            That’s why I said, “Almost every portion.”

            Why is it that you anti-vaxxers can’t even pretend to read what people write? Are you so terrified of reality that you can’t even show others the common curtesy of listening to them?

          • Realist

            THESE are US STATISTICS in the chart…I was describing the fact there are MANY cases of vaccine-induced “Acute Flaccid Paralysis” in places like India and Africa, compared to many fewer in the US…It appears it is not me afraid of reality, nor failing to “listen” to what I see…

          • Kepler 48k

            You deliberately didn’t read what I said to try and zing me about Polio’s continued existence. It’s very cowardly.

  • Lisa Gatti-Arnold

    Doesn’t matter if vaccines cause anything–the government should not be forcing people to have medical treatment.

    • http://lnkd.in/br3EkfM Brooke Dunne

      “forcing” hmmm. I won’t quibble over semantics.

      I respect your opinion, Lisa, but the Supreme Court decided this over 100 years ago in Jacobson v. Massachusetts. In January, the 2d Circuit cited Jacobson in upholding New York’s mandatory school vaccinations. (Philips v City of New York)

      The state has a right, and a responsibility, to protect citizens from epidemic. It’s a public health issue.

      • NeverRandom

        It is only a Public Health issue if the un-vaccinated are actually spreading disease in the classroom – as yet, I have seen ZERO evidence of this (though, we have had Pertussis and Chicken Pox outbreaks in our vaccinated student population).

        • lilady R.N.

          Not true. *Dr. Bob Sears’ deliberately non vaccinated patient who traveled to Switzerland with his parents was the “index case”, responsible for the 2008 huge measles outbreak in San Diego:

          http://blogs.plos.org/thepanicvirus/2012/03/26/bob-sears-bald-faced-liar-devious-dissembler-or-both/

          *Dr. Sears testified yesterday before the California Senate Hearing claiming he “represents the 77,000 autistic children in California and he is against passage of the pending legislation”.

          • NeverRandom

            Ah YES, I remember this! The outbreak was quite terrifying – a total of 11 cases, and NOBODY was disabled or died – it was just the worst thing to ever happen; imagine, those 11 children are now immune to Measles for life – how will they handle the horror? There was an EXCELLENT article written in Pediatrics about this! What was it, ah yeah – how the Measles spread through a HIGHLY VACCINATED POPULATION: Measles Outbreak in a Highly Vaccinated Population, San Diego, 2008: Role of the Intentionally Undervaccinated
            Sugerman, et al.Pediatrics 2010; 125:4 747-755

          • NeverRandom

            Of course, what is the risk of death from Measles? Well – this. http://www.shiftfrequency.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/US_MeaslesMortalityRate.jpg

          • Guest

            What is the real risk of contracting Measles, without vaccination? This. http://www.iayork.com/Images/2009/9-2-09/USMeaslesCases.jpg

          • NeverRandom

            Before vaccines, what was the risk of contracting Measles? This. http://www.iayork.com/Images/2009/9-2-09/USMeaslesCases.jpg

      • NeverRandom

        So, if you are going to exclude the un-vaccinated from Public Schools – I guess you will be excluding ALL the un-vaccinated? Or will you make exceptions for those who are un-vaccinated because of cancer? What about un-vaccinated due to defective immune system? If so, isn’t this allowing un-vaccinated students into the school (and who gets to be the arbiter of whether a child is “justifiably” un-vaccinated?)?!

    • JH

      Public school vaccination requirements aren’t forced vaccinations. You don’t have to send your kids to public school.

      • NeverRandom

        …And I don’t need to fund your, now exclusive, private schools with my tax dollars…Have fun with tuition :)

        • ciaparker2

          I’m laughing, great comeback!

    • Bearpants42

      Don’t like it? Home school.

      • NeverRandom

        OK, and I’ll keep those lovely tax dollars that fund the Public Schools, which are no longer Public.

        • Bearpants42

          I don’t drive on most roads in my state, why should my tax money go to support them?

          You sound like a petulant child.

          • NeverRandom

            Pants – you are confused – I will explain it: I did not prohibit you from driving on the roads, you CHOSE not to, thus the roads are still Public roadways. When you PROHIBIT any sub-group of taxpayers from use of a Public facility in a discriminatory manner, that facility loses its status as a Public facility and becomes Private; as would any Public school system that closes its door to a particular class of taxpayers, become Private.

          • Bearpants42

            And you chose not to properly take care of your children and it puts other kids at risk. Therefore you prohibit yourselves.

          • NeverRandom

            Pants – let me understand; if you believe in corporal punishment in parenting your children, am I, “not properly taking care of my children,” as they have never, ever been spanked or starved? As far as I know, the standard for caring for our children is a tad less specific, than making my children undergo risky, invasive medical procedures, because another parent likes to make their children do so…

    • lilady R.N.

      Sorry, you are mistaken. The government (in this case the individual States) have every right to determine which vaccines are required for entry into public schools.

  • NeverRandom

    If vaccines are perfectly safe, why does the US Government deem them, “unavoidably unsafe,” and exempt the manufacturers and those who administer them from any and all liability for injury or deaths they cause?
    National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986

    • http://plus.ly/cr4zyivan Ivan

      You lie. Next.

      • seniorcraig

        No, he doesn’t lie. Next.

        • http://plus.ly/cr4zyivan Ivan

          Actually, he does and so do you. Vaccines have not been deemed “unavoidably unsafe.” If you believe they have been, cite the statute or the court case.

          Further, manufacturers and those who administer them are not exempt from “any and all liability for injury or deaths.”

          I would offer you some light reading, but you’re a ridiculous braindead troll that just stalks lilady rn from thread to thread, so really there’s no point.

          • Nom de Plume

            Actually, they’re telling the truth. The phrase “unavoidably unsafe” is a legal term, and covers a wide variety of things. The link below uses a kitchen knife as an example: Making the knife safe requires making it dull so that it cannot cut, but a kitchen knife that cannot cut is useless. See:

            http://www.lawfirms.com/resources/personal-injury/product-liability/unavoidably-unsafe-products.htm

            Like it or not, there is risk with all medications. Even blood transfusions carry risk, and blood is classified as “unavoidably unsafe.” And yes, since there’s a slight possibility of reaction, vaccines fall into the category, too. Anti-vaxxers make a great deal of this, claiming it as an admission of unacceptable risk. They probably talk about it as they zoom along on the freeway, or as they pump gas, or as they split wood with an ax . . .

            Yes, vaccine producers are protected by the Vaccine Act of 1988, through the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. See:

            http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/vaccine-program-readmore

            Which is probably considered a bad thing by those who’d like to litigate vaccines out of existence.

          • http://plus.ly/cr4zyivan Ivan

            Yes, I’m familiar

            What I want to see is either the 8 comment sock or its puppetmaster, Señor Craig explain

            1) Where, exactly the US Government deemed vaccines “unavoidably unsafe.” That’s a meme Jenny commonly uses, so she should be able to support it;

            and,

            2) What Act exempted “the manufacturers and those who administer them from any and all liability,” Anyone familiar with the law knows that’s not true either.

            Thanks for the reply.

          • NeverRandom

            Let’s look at the actual legislation “National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program,” rather than some random blog: “Sec. 300aa-22. Standards of responsibility
            -STATUTE-
            (a) General rule
            Except as provided in subsections (b), (c), and (e) of this
            section State law shall apply to a civil action brought for damages
            for a vaccine-related injury or death.
            (b) Unavoidable adverse side effects; warnings
            (1) No vaccine manufacturer shall be liable in a civil action for
            damages arising from a vaccine-related injury or death associated
            with the administration of a vaccine after October 1, 1988, if the
            injury or death resulted from side effects that were unavoidable
            even though the vaccine was properly”

          • http://plus.ly/cr4zyivan Ivan

            “some random blog” gee … Who do I remember that uses that expression?

          • NeverRandom

            In 2011, the Supreme Court, essentially, foreclosed the possibility of pursuing a design defect claim against a Pharmaceutical company, for vaccine injury, in Civil Court. The Supreme Court decision in the case, Brueswitz v. Wyeth shields the vaccine manufacturers from design defect liability and eliminates the option of setting-aside the decision made by the Special Master in the administrative hearings, provided under the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986. This Act, was written to allow the vaccine-injured to pursue a Civil Case, and that right has been taken away; leaving only one pathway to compensation – and it is administered by the same Government agency that holds patents on vaccines, determines if vaccines are safe, and sets and mandates the vaccine schedule…In this “court,” you have no right to a jury of peers, Discovery, Subpoena, Deposition, or even Precedent – can you say “Kangaroo?” tens of thousands of disenfranchised, vaccine-injured people can, and do.

          • http://plus.ly/cr4zyivan Ivan

            If you’re going to borrow from an opinion article at the American Bar Association, the proper thing would be to cite the source, David.

            Regarding Wyeth, there’s an interesting footnote at Fixing the Vaccine Act’s Structural Moral Hazard BL Boxler – ‎2012

            “[V]accines became, one might say, victims of their own success. They had been so effective in preventing infectious diseases that the public became much less alarmed at the threat of those diseases, and much more concerned with the risk of injury from the vaccines themselves.” Bruesewitz v. Wyeth LLC, 131 S. Ct. 1068, 1072 (2011). In other words, the American public became complacent with the successfulness of vaccines, which made “it easier to forget the value of vaccines and to focus on their potential risks.

            That seems to be true here, as well.

            Another outcome of Wyeth as Boxler notes, is “Petitioners who prove by a preponderance of the evidence that they suffered an injury listed on the Table within the requisite post-immunization timeframe are presumptively entitled to compensation; no showing of actual causation is required.”

            That’s a fair deal. Manufacturers can be held liable for manufacturing defects, and plaintiffs can appeal to civil court. The statement that vaccine manufacturers are exempted from any and all liability is false.

            There is no evidence of “tens of thousands of disenfranchised, vaccine-injured people.” There are some, and the system has been designed to reduce litigation, expedite their claims, and compensate those who have adverse events. At this point, 90% of us are immune to the antivaxers tantrums. I can say without equivocation, it’s the tactics of people like you that have made that so.

          • NeverRandom

            Ivan , until you have, personally pursued a claim in vaccine “court,” I respectfully submit you are talking out of your nether region. I did not crib from the Bar, I have firsthand, real-world experience. Anyone who believes it is simple to prove vaccine injury and receive compensation is Ill informed and naive. Further, when the Supreme court bars your path and rules you cannot pursue your claim in Civil Court, despite this right being clearly stated in the legislation, you have been effectively disenfranchised – with both paths blocked. Tens of thousands have found no justice, compassion, or support from the system implemented to provide for their care. Even for those who manage to prevail in this rigged system , are forced to quibble for years over each item in their life care plan; with the Government arguing over the cost of name brand diapers and wipes versus generic , in-home care versus institutional, cotton sheets versus rubber, et cetera, as nauseam.

          • NeverRandom

            By the way. In case you were wondering – the value of your loved one’s life, should they die from vaccine injury, is $250K.

          • NeverRandom

            “NATIONAL VACCINE INJURY COMPENSATION PROGRAM:” “…HEADSec.
            300aa-11. Petitions for compensation
            -STATUTE-
            (a) General rule
            (1) A proceeding for compensation under the Program for a
            vaccinerelated
            injury or death shall be initiated by service upon the
            Secretary and the filing of a petition containing the matter
            prescribed by subsection (c) of this section with the United States
            Court of Federal Claims. The clerk of the United States Court of
            Federal Claims shall immediately forward the filed petition to the
            chief special master for assignment to a special master under
            section 300aa-12(d)(1) of this title.
            (2)(A) No person may bring a civil action for damages in an
            amount greater than $1,000 or in an unspecified amount against a
            vaccine administrator or manufacturer in a State or Federal court
            for damages arising from a vaccine-related injury or death
            associated with the administration of a vaccine after October 1,
            1988, and no such court may award damages in an amount greater than
            $1,000 in a civil action for damages for such a vaccine-related
            injury or death, unless a petition has been filed, in accordance
            with section 300aa-16 of this title, for compensation under the
            Program for such injury or death…”

          • http://plus.ly/cr4zyivan Ivan

            http://wayvs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Obvious.gif

            Now show me anything in the Act which deems vaccines “unavoidably unsafe.”

            Stupid brain dead troll.

          • lilady R.N.

            Let’s put that into perspective. Lawyers suing manufacturers work on a contingency fee…which is paid only if they prevail on behalf of their client.

            There have been ~ 4,000 awards from the United States Court of Federal Claims during the time the Vaccine Court has been in existence, yet every one of the nonsensical claims for “autism” from vaccines have been tossed by the court due to lack of evidence. The attorneys who take on those claims are all paid by the court. It’s a very lucrative practice for these attorneys whose clients have not prevailed in the Vaccine Court which has a far lower burden of proof than any State civil court.

            P.S. Billions of vaccines have been administered since the establishment of the Vaccine Court and no claim for autism has ever been awarded.

          • NeverRandom

            Actually, the attorneys for both the Respondent and the Claimant are paid from the taxes levied upon each and every vaccine administered. Further, the claimant, if he prevails, also is compensated from the pool of taxes the Government collected. Also, the Government takes, as profit 33% of each tax levied on each vaccine. If the claimant “wins,” what he receives is an annuity administered by the Government, which only allows for expenses laid out in the Government-negotiated life-care plan (and up to $250K (I believe) for pain and suffering). The Claimant’s attorney might not be paid for a decade, and when he is paid, is only paid what the Respondent’s attorney believes is fair (in a number of cases, significantly less than the hours put into bringing the case).

      • NeverRandom

        Actually, I truth…

      • ciaparker2

        That was the SCOTUS Wyeth vs. Bruesewicz case, 2011. It’s true. Everyone knows that vaccines can and do kill or disable.

    • lilady R.N.

      Let’s put that “unavoidably unsafe” anti-vaccine meme to bed right now:

      Here, from science blogger Tara Haelle, who refers us to the excellent legal analysis of that phrase by a respected law school professor:

      http://www.redwineandapplesauce.com/2014/07/17/guest-post-vaccines-and-unavoidably-unsafe-products/

      • NeverRandom

        Let’s just read the authorizing legislation: “Sec.
        300aa-22. Standards of responsibility
        -STATUTE-
        (a) General rule
        Except as provided in subsections (b), (c), and (e) of this
        section State law shall apply to a civil action brought for damages
        for a vaccine-related injury or death.
        (b) Unavoidable adverse side effects; warnings
        (1) No vaccine manufacturer shall be liable in a civil action for
        damages arising from a vaccine-related injury or death associated
        with the administration of a vaccine after October 1, 1988, if the
        injury or death resulted from side effects that were unavoidable
        even though the vaccine was properly prepared and was accompanied
        by proper directions and warnings…”

      • NeverRandom

        Let’s look at the actual legislation “National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program,” rather than some random blog: “Sec. 300aa-22. Standards of responsibility
        -STATUTE-
        (a) General rule
        Except as provided in subsections (b), (c), and (e) of this
        section State law shall apply to a civil action brought for damages
        for a vaccine-related injury or death.
        (b) Unavoidable adverse side effects; warnings
        (1) No vaccine manufacturer shall be liable in a civil action for
        damages arising from a vaccine-related injury or death associated
        with the administration of a vaccine after October 1, 1988, if the
        injury or death resulted from side effects that were unavoidable
        even though the vaccine was properly”

  • lilady R.N.

    The anti-vaccine groups and their spokespeople have shown their true colors, by threatening California State Senator Dr. Richard Pan who now requires police protection. That’s not a new stunt; they’ve threatened Dr. Paul Offit, as well. They are unreasonable, irascible and dangerous.

    Mr. Kennedy’s speeches at rallies and during press conferences are filled with hate for Dr. Paul Offit and others who are pro vaccine and pro science…indeed they are duplicates of the speech he made at a recent anti-vaccine organization’s annual conference. His sickening opinion of autistic children as “losing their minds” and the public health initiatives to protect babies and children as an evil plot by the CDC which will lead to a “Holocaust”, should be rejected as hate speech, by every American…even those who support his junk science.

    • seniorcraig

      It’s interesting to watch the US slide deeper and deeper into fascism. Cheered on by Lululady.

      • Jack Sprat

        senior, fascism? You certainly do not have a working knowledge of Italian history.

        • lbhajdu1 .

          Mr. Richard Pan and Mr. Offit are just as bad as Joseph mengele forcing people into medical procedures is unethical, you can’t call yourself a doctor if you do evil stuff like that.

          • Jack Sprat

            That is an opinion that is shared by many. My brief note was, however, a comment on seniorcraig’s dramatic yet inept use of fascism.

          • http://plus.ly/cr4zyivan Ivan

            That is an opinion that is shared by a few.

            Mandatory school vaccinations are not “just as bad as Joseph mengele.” If you think there’s any merit to that notion, you need your head examined.

          • Jack Sprat

            Nice pick Ivan, I was referring to “forcing people into medical procedures is unethical.”

        • ciaparker2

          When industry owns government? I think she does.

          • Jack Sprat

            And that dear cia, is not fascism.

    • lielady, R.N. BS

      Of course, you have proof that he has received threats, yes? Actual proof, not hear-say?

      Or, is this more of your, “Believe me because I say I’m a nurse so I don’t have to provide proof of anything?”

      • Meth Scented Shart

        You seem like fun. Can we be friends?

        • Proponent

          Welcome to the circus that is this discussion, Meth.

      • bpatient

        Sen. Richard Pan, a Sacramento Democrat who introduced SB 277, said the in-house law enforcement unit has provided him with extra security in recent weeks, after his office began receiving alarming phone calls, e-mails and Facebook comments from opponents of the bill…. Pan said his staff has forwarded all of the threats to the Senate
        Sergeant-at-Arms office, as is procedure, which has assessed them and
        responded as needed. Additional guards attended a community forum last
        month.

        http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article18533915.html

        • Reality022

          Nice folks those crazy, maniacal, anti-vaccine cultists.
          Between death threats and placing curses on him it seems Pan has brought out the “best” in the anti-vaccination loonies.

          Surely these are our best and brightest and most insane…
          (snicker)

      • lilady R.N.

        Why didn’t you read Mr. Kloor’s post?

        Why don’t you get your own ‘nym Imposter?

        • lielady, R.N. BS

          I did…it did not mention that Dr. Pan had received threats, only that he increased police protection (which could be for a variety of reasons). Why didn’t you read it?

          Why don’t you stick to the science and quit hurling your venomous hate and hypocrisy?

          • lilady R.N.

            See bpatient’s reply to you directly below, “Imposter”.

          • lielady, R.N. BS

            Did Mr. Kloor’s article mention the information below, lying, hypocritical pseudo-nurse?

            I do appreciate bpatient’s response, however.

      • Skeptologist

        From the look of your user needs, you’re just here to be argumentative.

        • lilady R.N.

          That’s my nasty fact-free cyber-stalking “Imposter”

          • lielady, R.N. BS

            Says the nasty cyber-stalker.

          • Skeptologist

            What grade are you in?

          • Skeptologist

            Yeah, I figured as much. So people just never mature.

          • Zogby

            When your friend shows up (and she will,) I would like you to do everything you can to ignore her. Please. Same with seniorcraig

            Downvote, Flag, Ignore.

            You don’t know me, but I have a patented solution for this problem.

            New, Improved Troll Spray®

            What’s in our new Troll Spray®, you ask? Magic Water, infused with 1 nanomolecule per billion thimerosal and just a hint of aluminum salts. Perfectly safe for humans, but kills vaccine trolls on contact.

            http://images58.fotki.com/v510/photos/2/292835/5750312/TrollBGone-vi.jpg

          • lilady R.N.

            Thanks for the advice and the laughs.

            The Imposter only posts insults and seniorcraig posts really inane fact-free comments, which at times, require push back.

          • lielady, R.N. BS

            “The Imposter only posts insults to my fact-free personal attacks and insults.”

            There…ftfy

          • Meth Scented Shart

            Look, I am probably your biggest fan, but I do have a question

            Why do your comments always show up right about the same time sabelmouth is online?

            I like you. I really do. But the thought that you and sabelmouth are wearing the same undies is a little disconcerting to me.

          • Zogby

            That’s what trolls do.

            You’ve been around long enough and you know the players. What I see is some really good comments you make that get derailed, and a lot of other good comments get pushed “below the fold.”

            I understand this has been going on for a while, but it’s only recently been brought to my attention. Let me take some of this off your plate.

          • lilady R.N.

            Thanks so much for your offer. I mostly ignore The Imposter; seniorcraig is great for target practice:

            http://www.jennifercraig.net/

            And here, taken apart by Dr. Mark Crislip an infectious diseases specialist and science blogger:

            https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/medical-voices-always-in-error-never-in-doubt/

          • Zogby

            Thanks. I see you enjoy sparring. In a lot of places the discussion with her has been informative. I don’t want to appear presumptuous, but I would suggest to only reward the behavior you want. Throw her an occasional upvote for comments which further the discussion, even if you don’t agree. Don’t reply to off-topic or inflammatory comments. Avoid flame wars. You probably won’t see me again, but I am here.

    • NeverRandom

      I received HUNDREDS of death threats, and people were calling and knocking on my door, and I was so scared I asked to police to perform extra patrols, too – it’s amazing ANYone can say that, and it simply becomes…Reality…

  • GuestWhom

    Children in public schools should be vaccinated for the benefit of everyone in society. Home school your children if you don’t want to have them vaccinated.

    • Bearpants42

      That’s the choice, ultimately. If you want to take advantage of public schools, you need to protect all the children with basic preventative medical care.

      • NeverRandom

        What brilliance – allow any child at school who has been vaccinated, because they are all protected (it’s like they are sheathed in condoms and cannot catch, carry, or spread any disease. Vaccines are magical like that! Live virus vaccines shed for up to three months, but this is not really disease, because it’s a vaccinated kid shedding it into his environment – and only the apparently healthy un-vaccinated can spread disease! Oh, and the outbreaks of Pertussis that occur only in vaccinated populations; those actually are because some healthy-looking un-vaccinated child was in a room with the vaccinated children! And that disease that looks just like Polio (which is also only found in the vaccinated) – THAT is from some un-vaccinated person, too! And let’s face it, if we keep the un-vaccinated out of the classroom, we don’t have to worry at all about all of the other places they go – like the library, the park, the grocery, the country club or YMCA, dances, theme parks,or restaurants, because they aren’t in our CLASSROOMS (where, you just KNOW they will spread disease)! Oh, and, never mind if one of the vaccinated kids in class has HIV, or Hepatitis, or Staph, or poison ivy, or lice, or any other contagious thing, because all the kids are VACCINATED! And, bonus — there are 300 more vaccines currently being developed, so soon you can make your children ever SAFER from disease!!! :)

        • Bearpants42

          This is what hysterical moral panic looks like. Thank you for the real world example.

          • NeverRandom

            This is what you reap with what you sew, Pants…

          • Bearpants42

            Look up moral panic. That’s you.

          • NeverRandom

            So, you propose the moral panic is not fear of virus’ and bacteria so intense one would force everyone in the world to inject themselves with pharmaceutical cocktails from providers with absolutely no liability for harm they might cause, as many products as the manufacturer decides to create, and as many times as the manufacturer recommends, with absolutely no guarantee of protection from bacteria and virus’ the products are meant to protect against; but rather the moral outrage over such practices becoming law? Wow.

          • Bearpants42

            “PHARMACEUTICAL COCKTAILS!”
            “NO LIABILITY!”
            “NO GUARANTEE!”

            Wow indeed.

          • NeverRandom

            Pharmaceutical COCKTAIL – yup.

          • NeverRandom

            NO GUARANTEE

          • NeverRandom

            NO LIABILITY

  • Karen Hansen
  • Harrison

    Not having your kids vaccinated is reckless and a danger to society. Diseases thought to have been eradicated, like polio and the mumps, are now on the rise again. Not vaccinating children also promotes these diseases to mutate and infect vaccinated children making the diseases even more difficult to control. Children who are not vaccinated should not be allowed to attend public school or participate in other institutions like summer camps and organized sports. Herd immunity is the best defence against infectious diseases, and those who choose not to vaccinate should be left out of the herd.

    • NeverRandom

      Wow. Someone’s been drinking the Kool Aid. The vaccine-induced “immunity” is temporary. The vaccinated shed the measles virus for up to two months, post-vaccine, exposing others to the disease with every mucal secretion. The measles strain from the vaccine is then transmitted, and can mutate, just as does each and every disease as it progresses through carriers…Herd immunity by vaccination has never been proven, only assumed. And, even if you plan to euthanize the unvaccinated (otherwise, your herd will come into contact with them on the playground, in the grocery, at the movies, in the restroom, etc – how will you prevent exposure of your herd to those whose vaccine-“immunity” wore off, or never took? Hello – you cannot inject health.

  • Buddy199

    Each succeeding generation of Kennedys are like photocopies of photocopies of the original, Old Man Joe. This is the worst nightmare of successful people, that their heirs will be trust fund dunces.

  • Bearpants42

    How do the anti-vaxxers rationalize the rates of autism not falling after the removal of the additive? If it was causing the issues, shouldn’t rates have started to fall after 1999?

    • Reality022

      They use page 6 in their Handbook of the Anti-Vaccine Cult.

      pg6:
      “When cornered by the facts, bail out with the tried and true – “It’s all a giant conspiracy111!!!111″ gambit. You’re target audience is too stupid to see how vacuous this statement really is.”

      hth.

    • NeverRandom

      How about the fact the additive was NOT removed, in the USA, from the 2 RhoGAM shots given in pregnancy, nor from the Flu shots given in pregnancy, nor from the DTaP some were given in pregnancy, nor from some of the HepB shots given the day of birth? How about the fact, when they did reduce some of the shots’ amounts of mercury, they amped-up the aluminum? How about the fact they added anothe 6+ shots to the schedule for birth to 2 yrs? AND the fact the shots still contain other mutagens, neurotoxins, carcinogens, and teratogens? Or maybe the point that the Danish study was authored by a felon who will be extradited and tried in the USA? The point that the poorly constructed study looked only at in-patients for the “before thimerosal removal,” then included every citizen in the Autism count for the “after?” Duh.

      • lilady R.N.

        There’s an awfully lot of whataboutery you’ve written in your comment.

        Scroll down to see that your whataboutery statements have already been addressed.

        • lielady, R.N. BS

          Science?

          • NeverRandom

            Aluminum in vaccines, from the vaccine inserts:

            FDA recommendation: limit aluminum exposure to 5 mcg per kilogram per day. A 2 month old child wil weigh in the range of ~5 kilograms/11 pounds, meaning a mximum of 25 mcg aluminum exposure per day. What are infants receiving?

            HepB (Hepatitis B) = 250 mcg (Engerix or Recombivax)

            DTaP (diptheria, tetanus and acellular pertussis) = ranges from 170 mcg (Tripedia), 330 mg (Daptacel), 625 (Infarix)

            HiB (Haemophilus influenzae B. This is NOT the flu vaccine.) = 225 mcg (PedvaxHIB), or 0 mcg (ActHIB)

            PCV (Pneumococcal) = 125 mcg (Prevnar-13)

            Hep A (Hepatitis A) = 250 mcg (HAVRIX and VAQTA)

            COMVAX (Hib + HepB) = 225 mcg

            Pediatrix (DTaP + HepB + IPV) = 850 mcg

            Pentacel (DTaP + IPV + Hib) = 330 mcg (note: the package insert says it has 1500 mcg of aluminum phosphate, which is equivalent to 330 mcg of elemental aluminum)

          • NeverRandom
          • NeverRandom

            Birth to age 18 vaccine schedule (read the sub-noes, to achieve the correct # vaccines administered: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolescent.html

          • NeverRandom

            OIG Fugitive: Poul Thorsen
            From approximately February 2004 until February 2010, Poul Thorsen executed a scheme to steal grant money awarded by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). CDC had awarded grant money to Denmark for research involving infant disabilities, autism, genetic disorders, and fetal alcohol syndrome. CDC awarded the grant to fund studies of the relationship between autism and the exposure to vaccines, the relationship between cerebral palsy and infection during pregnancy, and the relationship between developmental outcomes and fetal alcohol exposure.
            Thorsen worked as a visiting scientist at CDC, Division of Birth Defects and Developmental Disabilities, before the grant was awarded.
            The initial grant was awarded to the Danish Medical Research Council. In approximately 2007, a second grant was awarded to the Danish Agency for Science, Technology, and Innovation. Both agencies are governmental agencies in Denmark. The research was done by the Aarhaus University and Odense University Hospital in Denmark.
            Thorsen allegedly diverted over $1 million of the CDC grant money to his own personal bank account. Thorsen submitted fraudulent invoices on CDC letterhead to medical facilities assisting in the research for reimbursement of work allegedly covered by the grants. The invoices were addressed to Aarhaus University and Sahlgrenska University Hospital. The fact that the invoices were on CDC letterhead made it appear that CDC was requesting the money from Aarhaus University and Sahlgrenska University Hospital although the bank account listed on the invoices belonged to Thorsen.
            In April 2011, Thorsen was indicted on 22 counts of Wire Fraud and Money Laundering.
            According to bank account records, Thorsen purchased a home in Atlanta, a Harley Davidson motorcycle, an Audi automobile, and a Honda SUV with funds that he received from the CDC grants.
            Thorsen is currently in Denmark and is awaiting extradition to the United States.

            https://oig.hhs.gov/fraud/fugitives/profiles.asp

          • NeverRandom

            Oops, I think I understated…That would be an addition of 7 vaccines (2 new vaccines, 5 additional shots, for the age 11 – 18 crowd; and 5 new vaccines, 9 additional shots for the birth to age 2 crowd, plus 2 additional shots for 4 year-olds) introduced between 1995 and 2006. http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/history-immunization-schedule

          • NeverRandom

            Lie lady, see below for “science.”

          • lielady, R.N. BS

            Where’s the science in her insulting screed? She’s a self professed “defender of science,” but all I see are smug insults and hypocrisy.

          • NeverRandom

            Thimerosal – DANGERous, wear a respirator, face shield and gloves – but don’t worry, it is perfectly safe to inject into newborns and pregnant women…

            Safety Information

            Symbol

            GHS06, GHS08, GHS09

            Signal word

            Danger

            Hazard statements

            H300 +H310 + H330-H373-H410

            Precautionary statements

            P260-P273-P280-P301 + P310 + P330-P302 + P352 + P310-P304 + P340 + P310

            Personal Protective Equipment

            Eyeshields, Faceshields, full-face particle respirator type N100 (US), Gloves, respirator cartridge type N100 (US), type P1 (EN143) respirator filter, type P3 (EN 143) respirator cartridges

            Hazard Codes (Europe)

            T+,N

            Risk Statements (Europe)

            26/27/28-33-50/53

            Safety Statements (Europe)

            13-28-36-45-60-61

            RIDADR

            UN 2025 6.1 / PGIII

            WGK Germany

            3

            Flash Point(F)

            482 °F

            Flash Point(C)

            250 °C

        • NeverRandom

          The what about was not supposition – it was statement of reality, see below.

      • Bearpants42

        What you just did here is called piling up the bullshit. You make a ton of unsourced claims and flat out lies, which would take any reasonable person hours or days to refute. By that point, you will have spread even more intellectual vomit all over the place.

        • NeverRandom

          Pants, see below – no need to accuse and name call, any monkey with a keyboard can got to the CDC website…

          • Bearpants42

            Who name-called?

          • NeverRandom

            “Intellectual vomit ” creative…

          • Bearpants42

            You aren’t your rhetoric. I can call your ideas idiotic without calling you an idiot.

            Perfectly intelligent people have lots of idiotic ideas. For example, not vaccinating your children because of what you read on the Internet.

          • NeverRandom

            Clearly, Kepler, some don’t even have any research to post – only vitriol (I find that entirely more compelling than those difficult to understand research studies and textbooks)…

          • Kepler 48k

            Some don’t even have to read what other’s write in order to reply. You should try actually reading before responding, then you won’t appear so uninformed.

    • ciaparker2

      Because any vaccine can cause vaccine encephalitis, caused when a vaccine, any vaccine, provokes TOO MUCH of an inflammatory reaction, it involves the brain, and when the inflammation cuts off circulation for long enough, stroke-like damage results, especially to the language and social center of the brain. MMR never had mercury, but causes a lot of autism anyway, from the excessive reaction to the vaccine.

  • TCBronson

    After prominent CDC researchers accuse the CDC of manipulating data and hiding connections between vaccines and autism, seek whistleblower status and turn over incriminating documents; after Congressional investigations have on several occasions found the CDC to be dysfunctionally corrupt, this vapid ad hominem tactic is disgraceful. Your only recourse is to the last resort of the intellectually outflanked, “b-but that would be a conspiracy”. Logically equivalent to “the CDC could not be lying about the safety of vaccines because that would mean the CDC was lying about the safety of vaccines.” Forgive us if we are not convinced by your reliance on a priori assumptions. Any parent who was aware of the research of the scientists who have conscience, of the allegations of the whistleblowers who have found a conscience, as well as the blatantly incriminating released documents revealing shameful attempts to cover up the connection between vaccines and neurolgical damage, would be guilty of child abuse were they to follow the official vaccine schedule. Keep up the good work.

    • lilady R.N.

      Looks, like someone is cherry picking some random quotes from unknown sources. How about providing those sources?

      • TCBronson

        Hey you guys are working full-time here! Maybe “vacuous” rather than “vapid” in my first sentence. What do you think? Any substantive comment about anything I wrote? Didn’t think so.

        • lilady R.N.

          I’d comment, but your comment is undecipherable.

          Learn sentence and paragraph structure.

          Show us which cherry trees you stripped for your phrases.

          • lielady, R.N. BS

            Science? Where is it?

            You’re really bringing up grammar, sentence and paragraph structure? Really? Aren’t you the one who doesn’t know how to use a comma?

            Observe:

            “Looks, like someone is cherry picking some random quotes from unknown sources.”

            A nurse with a college education would know that the comma after the word “Looks” in the quoted sentence is unnecessary. Why don’t you?

          • Jack Sprat

            Ah, do you have your very own pet troll now? You must be flattered.

          • lilady R.N.

            I’ve got trolls and Disqus cyber-stalkers including the “Imposter” and Ms. Craig and the ones who provide up votes to their comments. :-)

          • lielady, R.N. BS

            Aaaand, still no Science, just whining and personal attacks.

          • seniorcraig

            Oh diddums! You obviously don’t like getting a taste of your own medicine.

          • Jack Sprat

            Wow. That almost sounds like an infestation. Hope it’s not contagious.

    • Skeptologist

      I love cherries! Do you pick them often?

  • Greg

    And yet this article again demonstares a characteristic irony of pro-vaxxers. They will rant on to no end about ‘anti-vaxxers’ motivations and beliefs, yet to solicit ‘anti-vaxxers’ directly for their views is considered strictly off-limits, because that would afford them ‘false balance’.

    • Skeptologist

      Should we solicit the views of young earth creationists to provide balance on the science of evolution?

      • Buddy199

        All views should be given a full airing at some point for, as Thomas Jefferson said, “Daylight is the best disinfectant.” Full blown kook-disinfection shouldn’t take too many treatments I would think.

        • lilady R.N.

          It really could have been Thomas Jefferson’s quote. :-)

          It was Louis Brandeis who was later to become the first Jew to be appointed to the USSC, who stated that “sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants”.

          https://sunlightfoundation.com/blog/2009/05/26/brandeis-and-the-history-of-transparency/

          “….Brandeis made his famous statement that “sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants” in a 1913 Harper’s Weekly article, entitled “What Publicity Can Do.” But it was an image that had been in his mind for decades. Twenty years earlier, in a letter to his fiance, Brandeis had expressed an interest in writing a “a sort of companion piece” to his influential article on “The Right to Privacy,”
          but this time he would focus on “The Duty of Publicity.” He had been thinking, he wrote, “about the wickedness of people shielding wrongdoers & passing them off (or at least allowing them to pass themselves off) as honest men.” He then proposed a remedy:

          If the broad light of day could be let in upon men’s actions, it would purify them as the sun disinfects….”

          • Buddy199

            You are correct, madame! I bow to your superior intellect.

          • lilady R.N.

            Heh….my “superior intellect” comes from the Wikipedia entry for Justice Brandeis.

        • Jack Sprat

          And we all know how well daylight disinfects internal organs now.

    • lilady R.N.

      Hmm, Mr. Kloor did not contact me for my pro vaccine, pro science view.

      You should free free to comment without a personal invitation from Mr. Kloor.

      • lielady, R.N. BS

        “my pro vaccine, pro science view.”

        That gets more hilarious every time you say it!

  • lilady R.N.

    Mr. Kennedy has issued an apology for his latest misuse of the phrase “Holocaust”. He claims that it was an extemporaneous remark, even though he’s been referring to the “autism Holocaust” for years.

    http://www.latimes.com/local/political/la-me-pc-robert-kennedy-jr-apologizes-for-likening-vaccine-impacts-to-holocaust-20150413-story.html

    Perhaps one of Mr. Kennedy’s advisers told him that Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day) begins tonight at sundown.

    • Buddy199

      Every time I hear some nincompoop exploit the Holocaust or its derivative slanderous term “denier” – Kennedy, PETA, AGW. etc. – I just want to punch them in the nose.

  • Mike Stevens

    CBS:
    Anti-vaxx mom abandons movement — after all seven her of her kids get whooping cough.
    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/04/anti-vaxx-mom-abandons-movement-after-all-seven-her-of-her-kids-get-whooping-cough/

    • lilady R.N.

      I saw that post and I hope that she is not targeted by some nasty anti-vaccine groups.

      • Jack Sprat

        too late

    • NeverRandom

      Let’s see, an adult came to the house, sick with a “cold…” Then her three fully vaccinated and four unvaccinated kids suddenly caught Pertussis, and now she doesn’t want to be against vaccination, because the vaccinated kids caught Pertuissis, too…Forgive me if I fail to understand the rationale for this inane article…

      • ciaparker2

        I thought it was inane too. Yes, anyone these days can catch pertussis, vaxed or not, because the vaccine is miserably ineffective. I know they’re just champing at the bit to bring back the old DPT, maybe waiting for those who remember the furor in the ’80s about all the death and disability it caused to die? These days they know that all they have to do is deny it when babies die or scream with vaccine encephalitis for days.
        But on the good side, the disease stopped being dangerous many decades ago, to all but a tiny fraction of the youngest newborns, who should be kept sheltered at home for their protection, and treated with high-dose vitamin C if they get it anyway.
        So big deal. Seven children in the same family caught pertussis and coughed ten coughs per breath for several weeks, maybe as long as two months, like me, when I caught it from my VACCINATED baby who got it anyway at 8 months old. All seven children got well uneventfully. The unvaxed ones now have permanent immunity.

      • Mike Stevens

        Well, both the unvaxed and delayed/partially vaxed kids kids got pertussis.
        If all had been fully vaxed on time, they likely as not would not have got pertussis.
        Is that so hard to understand?
        Mom has reflected on her stupidity in irrationally rejecting vaccines, and had second thoughts. Good for her, but pity she couldn’t have thought through the consequences of mucking around with vaccination schedules in the first place.

        • Realist

          “Collectively, these national and local data provided estimates of the frequency of infection, complications of infection, admission to hospital and death in children with whooping cough for comparison with local, national and published estimates of the frequency and severity of adverse reactions, encephalopathy, permanent brain damage and death after injections of pertussis vaccine. It is concluded that, in children living in non-deprived circumstances in Britain, the risk of pertussis vaccine during the period 1970-83 exceeded those of whooping cough. In some deprived sectors, the risks from whooping cough might have been marginally higher but there was no evidence that this was associated with any increase in deaths or permanent disabilities.”

          • Mike Stevens

            That is a commentary written by Gordon Stewart, the antivaccinationist and AIDS denialist.
            Independent analysis of the cases of supposed pertussis vaccine encephalopathy has revealed that the damage was not due to vaccine but because the afected children were suffering a genetic problem, namely Dravet’s syndrome.
            http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/128/3/e699.full

          • NeverRandom

            I can speak for my child – no genetic disorder…No Dravet, no Fragile X, none of the “Autism” genes – a big, fat, nothing…

          • Mike Stevens

            There are hundreds of genetic SNPS and polymorphisms. Most of these are research tools only, but in time they may be able to do fuller genetic screening to help you.

          • NeverRandom

            Whole exome, clean, specific genetic tests, clean, genome, clean. No genetic syndrome to blame – though there is genetic reduced methylation capacity…

          • Mike Stevens

            OK. Not all autism is genetic.
            Viral infections and other triggers can cause it.
            [Congenital rubella was a common cause – making autism the first neurodevelopmental problem to be prevented by vaccination.]

  • LinnieMae

    His uncle Ted would be rolling over in his grave.

  • Ted Kuntz

    Attacking Kennedy is avoiding the issue. Are vaccines safe? If you have evidence, kindly provide it. Otherwise, you are not adding to the conversation. Also recognize that virtually ever anti-vaxxer is a parent whose child was injured by a vaccine. Time to wake up and deal with reality.

    • Jack Sprat

      Ted, I will accept your premise “that virtually ever anti-vaxxer is a parent whose child was injured by a vaccine.” with minor qualifications. That virtually ever anti-vaxxer is a parent that claims without scientific basis, their child was injured by a vaccine, in their opinion.

      • Ted Kuntz

        Thanks Jack. I know it very challenging to accept that vaccines cause injury. The miracle of vaccines is such a good story. We just want to believe its true. I wish it were true. It just wasn’t true in my son’s case.

        • Jack Sprat

          I am sorry to hear of anyone sustaining an injury. As a father my heart goes out to you.
          What is the nature of your son’s injury?

          • Ted Kuntz

            My son developed an uncontrolled seizure disorder from his DPT shot. This was in 1984. They have since revamped the shot to reduce the amount of adverse reaction.

          • Jack Sprat

            It is not easy to reconcile, as parents. We make a lifetime of decisions for our children with the best information we have available at the time. Unfortunately medicine is not perfect and your son is on the other side of the afflicted ratio. No solace is found there.
            Vaccines have been one the greatest benefit to our species, that is unarguable. They are not without toll. I have seen both sides.

            I am home now, on a sanctioned or rather forced sabbatical. When armed groups surround an NGO hospital that provides the medical needs of IDP’s; you leave or get shot. We provided, in the last year, over 112,000 vaccines in situ. Measles, and DPT were the most prevalent, when available. We saw mothers and children that had walked for weeks to “come camping” as we darkly called it. And we saw, I saw the tiny corpses.
            Vaccine programs are not perfect. Science has improved exponentially since Josh was diagnosed. Vaccines do save lives, just not all of them.

          • Ted Kuntz

            Hi Jack. Thank you for your thoughtful and respectful comments. And I honour you and your passion. I also appreciate your humility in acknowledging the limitations of what we know.

          • NeverRandom

            Certainly, you must realize that what would save far more of those lives, Jack, would be clean water, proper sanitation, nutritious and adequate food, solid housing, and the opportunity to sleep soundly with both eyes closed? The idea that injecting starving people with vaccines, saves their lives is a tad ridiculous; a fine supposition, but I’d like to see historical data from the last century. Particularly, as I have peers working in the region, with contacts in local tribes, who have told stories of hiding in the bush when the vaccine pogroms (er, I mean programs) come to visit…

          • Jack Sprat

            You have made many assumptions.

          • NeverRandom

            No, I have looked at historical morbidity and mortality data and studied the history of America’s climb from the outhouse through indoor plumbing and into the 20th century marvels of abundance… And I have befriended peoples of many nations, worldwide. Why, simply giving malnourished children vitamin A (for instance children of Zambia), can significantly lower the risk of the children contracting Measles-related pneumonia…

          • Reality022

            Why, simply vaccinating children with MMRII (for instance children of Zambia) can significantly lower the risk of the children contracting measles itself and all the associated measles-related comorbidities.
            Then feed them Vitamin A “Golden Rice”.

            Why pay for supplements when you can eliminate them contracting the disease altogether?

          • NeverRandom

            So you propose it is better to provide a temporary immunity through injection with a product with known side effects, including chronic brain injury; rather than allow natural disease to occur, supported by quality vitamins, clean water, and ample whole food nutrition, providing lifetime immunity across the herd, with less likelihood of neurological sequela? “Feed them ‘Golden Rice?'” Wow, you really are on-board with the population reduction agenda – bravo! Certainly, a GE product will quickly finish the job…

          • Katia

            Immunity is from measles vaccine is long term, thought to be lifetime. Most original immunizees from 1963 (with live virus vaccine) are still immune, these 52 years later.

          • NeverRandom

            Katia – that is a very general statement, and not necessarily true. Most of us, from the 60’s not only got vaccinated, but also caught and recovered from the measles, anyway (active immunity) – can you document our immunity is not from naturally occurring virus? Frankly, this is how the immune system is designed to work – circulating disease in the community constantly challenges the immune system to produce a response, often leading to what is known as a case of sub-clinical disease (we never know we had it), which maintains our status as immune; this form of immunity is shared by pregnant woman with her fetus, and a nursing mother with her infant, and is called passive immunity – those who have been vaccinated, but never caught and recovered from a disease (artificial, temporary immunity) cannot protect their nursing infants from disease, through this method, for more than a couple of months.

          • Katia

            Have you seen the graphs of the decrease in the incidence of measles after the vaccine came out? It dropped pretty fast. Now some docs back then may have given the vaccine even if the patient had a history of measles disease, I don’t dispute that. However, most people born 1962 or later would have been vaxed at a year of age and not have gotten measles disease.

            Don’t need your little lecture on active/passive immunity. For some strange, and I do mean strange, reason, anti-vaxers think that immunized moms do not pass antibody on to their babies. This is bunk. In either case, immunity is pretty short lived, about 3 months for the immunized moms and 5 months for the moms with disease-induced immunity. Very little measles antibody passes through to breast milk. That is not a reliable form of “immunization”.

            I have posted links about both these issues; you may search my posts for them if you don’t believe me.

          • NeverRandom

            Have you actually looked at the data for measles mortality from 1900?! https://vaccinefactcheck.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/fp0416_measle_rates_us_b_ab1.jpg

          • Katia

            We’ve gotten better at keeping people alive. But even today, 30% of cases have complications.

          • NeverRandom

            Inflating statistics does not make you look well informed – the last two years of statistics show 8% – 14% are hospitalized (most for pneumonia, not Measles)…Which came first? Who knows. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6414a1.htm?s_cid=mm6414a1_e

          • Katia

            Complication does not always mean hospitalization.

          • Kepler 48k

            Nice scale on that graph. Do you get off on being so intellectually dishonest?

          • Realist

            The scale is even, across the board and staggered at consistent intervals, what exactly is your issue? I think you prefer the chart that only reflects from mid-60’s forward – THAT would be intellectually dishonest…

          • NeverRandom

            Katia – You are mistaken about passive immunity in infants whose mothers were not vaccinated – it is shown to last significantly longer the 5 months in some… http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7651776

          • Katia

            That’s not what the article says.

          • NeverRandom

            Katia – My point was, just because you are vaccinated does not mean you did not catch the disease, either subclinically or even full-blown – it happens all the time…

          • Katia

            Linky. You can’t get a disease that’s not circulating.

          • NeverRandom

            Um, Measles never stopped circulating… http://www.cdc.gov/measles/images/measles-cases-616px.png

          • Katia

            You obviously don’t understand what “circulating” means, epidemiologically.

          • NeverRandom

            Katia – Just for your edification, here is the incidence of Measles in historical perspective: https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS66Ggzs-JA-_iUISgWT9B4YX69HbV4fKkrwT08wjFcsxUoata8mg

          • Katia

            Snort! That’s a mortality chart, nohttp://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=incubation%20period%20for%20polio&source=web&cd=3&sqi=2&ved=0CCIQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.immunize.org%2Fcatg.d%2Fp4215.pdf&ei=RPspVZDyMsS_sAXmq4DIDA&usg=AFQjCNEp7EtccAqj2LvlYQOtYAynyTUZ5Q&sig2=yZUXc5PDZGKQaSRVrIEE6w&bvm=bv.90491159,d.b2wt an incidence graph.

          • NeverRandom

            Yes, Katia, the last time I checked – the DEFINITION of INCIDENCE is not mortaliy…

          • Katia

            Well, you claimed your graph shows incidence. It does not.

          • Katia

            Let’s look at the vaccines Jack Sprat was talking about.

            Measles is spread by the airborne route, and it is the most contagious disease on earth. 90% of non-immune people, regardless of their water supply, sanitation level, etc, will get sick. The virus can stay in the air for two hours after the sick person has left.

            “Diphtheria-spread (transmitted) from person to person, usually
            through respiratory droplets, from coughing or sneezing. Rarely,
            spreading may occur from skin lesions (like an abnormal sore) or clothes
            that are contaminated with discharges from lesions (like a sore) of an
            infected person.
            A person also can get infected with diphtheria by
            coming in contact with an object, like a toy, that has been
            contaminated with the bacteria that cause diphtheria.”
            http://www.cdc.gov/diphtheria/about/causes-transmission.html

            I have a special interest in diphtheria as my great-grandmother lost THREE KIDS in THREE WEEKS during a diphtheria outbreak. She also had a stillborn baby at that time.

            No dirty water or hygiene issues there.

            Pertussis-The whooping cough bacteria are spread from person to person in airbornedroplets or by direct contact with infected throat or nasal discharges.Coughing and sneezing are the most common modes of transmission.
            https://www.southerncross.co.nz/AboutTheGroup/HealthResources/MedicalLibrary/tabid/178/vw/1/ItemID/100/Whooping-cough-symptoms-diagnosis-treatment-vaccination.aspx

            No dirty water or hygiene issues there.

            Tetanus-The bacteria can get into the body through broken skin, usually
            through injuries from contaminated objects. Certain breaks in the skin
            that are more likely to get infected with tetanus bacteria. These
            include:
            Wounds contaminated with dirt, poop (feces), or spit (saliva)
            Wounds caused by an object puncturing the skin, like a nail or needle (puncture wounds)
            Burns
            Crush injuries
            Injuries with dead tissue

            Tetanus bacteria are everywhere in the environment, including soil, dust and manure.

            http://www.cdc.gov/tetanus/about/causes-transmission.html

            Nothing about sanitation or hygiene there.

          • lilady R.N.

            DPT vaccine did cause febrile seizures for some children. While a febrile seizure is frightening to watch, it does not affect the child’s neurological outcome.

            There were a number of instances where the Vaccine Court awarded damages for the onset of a seizure disorder associated with the whole cell pertussis antigen in the DPT shot. Since that time, studies have been conducted which found those seizures disorder were not caused by the DPT vaccine, but rather a genetic disorder (Dravet Syndrome):

            http://www.thelancet.com/journals/laneur/article/PIIS1474-4422%2810%2970107-1/abstract

  • NeverRandom

    I LOVE it when people argue it is unethical or immoral to do a study of the life/death, and long-term overall health outcomes for fully vaccinated teens and young adults, compared to the entirely un-vaccinated teens and young adults. Um, they are ALREADY un-vaccinated or fully vaccinated; what is immoral or unethical about studying their outcomes?! What is unconscionable, immoral, and unethical is the fact NOBODY has actually performed this study (or any other study of the safety or efficacy of today’s 32 shots by 24 months of age schedule)! What is unconscionable, immoral, and unethical is claiming the “science” is final – real science is NEVER final – science evolves; that is its very mission and nature! What is unconscionable, immoral, and unethical is people who have never read the actual construct, premise, and results of the studies whose headlines they parrot from the PhRMA-funded news outlets – here’s a hint, if you can’t or won’t take the time needed to understand what a study really proves – shut your mouth, roll up your sleeve, and leave those who have done the work to their own devices…

    • Jack Sprat

      NeverRandom, well said! I am glad that we finally have a participant that has “done the work.” For the benefit of readers could you please tell us where your research paper has been published.

      • NeverRandom

        Jack – To which paper do you refer?

        • Jack Sprat

          That is my point exactly.

          • NeverRandom

            So, your point would be, because you assume I am not published, facts become less valid? Since you’ve no idea my academic , nor professional training and affiliation, this seems a touch illogical. This is like saying, if a consumer posts the nutritional panel of a food product and declares the product contains x grams of protein, he is not correct, as he is not a nutritionist – regardless of who posts the fact, the fact remains a fact.

          • Jack Sprat

            You state you have “done the work,” NeverRandom. Precisely what work have you done?

    • lilady R.N.

      You’re displaying your anti-vaccine proclivities. Time now for you to post links to prove your assertions.

      • seniorcraig

        Once again, you go for the messenger. Now, how about looking at the argument presented and refute that?

        Lulu, quit using the word “anti-vaccine” as if the phrase confers some sort of moral deficit. Thousands of people oppose vaccination. That’s what these blogs are all about. Get used to it. AND, yes, the sources they use are “anti-vaccine”. Of course they are. Get used to it.

        • Jack Sprat

          It is interesting that you openly state “the sources they use are “Anti-vaccine”.”
          Science and those that partake of science are pro-knowledge. Having established or preconceived outcomes immediately discredits both the researcher and the research. Thank you for validating what has long been suspected.

          • seniorcraig

            Oh yawn, I’m talking to a poster who dismisses every reference people who oppose vaccines make, as anti-vaccine. She uses the expression, not me. There is more “science” to be seen on the sites Lulu dismisses than any she uses. You are simply picking an argument to support your idea of science. Yeah, you have it but people who reach other conclusions do not. Get lost.

          • Jack Sprat

            Not true senior, however good bye.

      • lielady, R.N. BS

        Personal insults, zero facts.

        No science.

      • NeverRandom

        PROVE IT?! Unfortunately, the research has never been funded; hence my comment that the study must be done, and until it is done, science has not spoken on this issue…

      • Jack Sprat

        Anti-vaccine has such a negative ring to it, and people are finding it unsettling. A positive “pro” stance should work. How does pro-disease or pro-death sound?

        • Reality022

          Pro child neglect?

          • NeverRandom

            Show me statistics from any first-world country where unvaccinated children are more chronically ill, or dead in higher numbers than their fully vaccinated peers? When you do, then we can determine neglect.

      • Kathy

        I am taking this classic lilady post to say RIP lilady. May you rest in peace and enjoy your journey to wherever you go. You will be missed in vax debate land.

  • Ted Kuntz
    • Jack Sprat

      It is a rubuttal Ted; however the information presented as fact is dated. New(er) information supplanting your submission is available. If I find time I will post it.
      Kindest

    • lilady R.N.

      For a rebuttal of everything you read on that anti-vaccine blogger’s post (with links to prior endeavors of Mr. Solomon) see:

      http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/03/23/no-lawrence-solomon-unicef-and-who-are-not-trying-to-sterilize-women-with-tetanus-vaccines/

      • Ted Kuntz

        No where does Mr. Solomon present as an anti-vaxxer. His purpose is to investigate and present vaccine facts. When those who express concern about the safety of vaccines are labeled as anti-vaxxers it distorts the discussion and undermines the integrity of those who use this label. Can I suggest you use the label – “individuals questioning the safety of vaccines” or “individuals who have experienced vaccine injury”. It is akin to labeling individuals who are pro-vaccine as ‘anti-freedom’ or ‘anti- choice’. Thanks.

        • Katia

          Oh, they all say they’re not “anti-vax”! Jenny McCarthy says she’s not anti-vax!

          • Ted Kuntz

            Not sure what your point is.

          • Katia

            Many people say, “I’m not anti-vax but. . . ” The but, being, “they cause autism, SIDS, MS, diabetes, yada, yada”.

          • Ted Kuntz

            There is a difference between being against vaccines and expressing concern about the safety of vaccines, or declaring that vaccines were not safe for one’s child.

            Being concerned about the safety of a car does not make one anti-car.

            The pro/anti vaccine is an artificially constructed polarity that distracts from the real issue – the safety of vaccines. We would all benefit if we discussed this issue.

          • Katia

            There is no evidence that vaccines are UN-safe now. Let me amend that, no SCIENTIFIC evidence. There is absolutely NO connection with vaccines for autism, SIDS, or a myriad of other conditions for which they have been blamed. There are a VERY few cases where vaccines have been a triggering factor for some problem, e.g. Hannah Pohling.

            When people start out “I’m not anti-vax but. . . “, as the conversation continues, it turns out they’re very anti-vax.

          • Ted Kuntz

            The fact is there is no long term clinical evidence that the vaccine program is safe. It is the responsibility of the industry and government to demonstrate safety. This has not been done. If you have scientific evidence of the long term safety of vaccines, please provide the citation.

            You will find very little safety research, and what reseach is done is short term and most fail to use a genuine control group. Instead they compare a vaccinated population with another vaccinated population and declare that a vaccine is safe because the rate of autism, etc is no different. This is deception, not science.

            There is an abundance of evidence of the connection between vaccines and autism, SIDS, and a myriad of other conditions. I invite you to read the admission of William Thompson, the whistleblower from the CDC who has admitted the CDC has been falsifying data for ten years to deny the vaccine-autism relationship.

          • Katia

            Oh, bull puckey!

            Here is a very good article about vaccine safety testing, from the Colorado Children’s Immunization Coalition, of which I am a member.
            http://www.path.org/blog/2015/04/rigors-vaccine-testing/

            There is absolutely NO evidence that vaccines cause any of the diseases/conditions you listed.

            Thompson admitted nothing, and said he absolutely supports vaccination, and that reasonable scientists can disagree. He also has not been heard from in public since he lawyered up. He was beyond stupid. He talked on the phone with that anti-vax nut Brian Hooker several times, and had no clue Hooker was recording him.

          • Ted Kuntz

            Your link is a nice story but is not evidence of the long term safety of vaccines. I trust you are a smart person and have done extensive investigation to conclude vaccines are safe. Can you kindly provide your evidence?

            Contrary to your statement, Thompson did admit something quite significant. He admitted the CDC has been falsifying autism-vaccine data for 10 years. Merck also has two senior researchers who also have taken whistleblower status and have disclosed extensive fraud at Merck.

            With regards to your statement that there is no evidence that vaccines cause any serious conditions, I invite you to read the product information monograph for any one vaccine much less all of them.

          • Katia

            That’s all bull. It’s not clear if anyone has been given “whistleblower” status. Thompson did not admit to falsifying data for 10 years. The dumb fool spoke to Booker 10 years after the research was done. Thompson has not been heard from in public since his letter in August, where he said reasonable scientists can disagree, leaving open the possibility he was wrong.

            Your condescending tone, which gives me the creeps just reading it, makes this my last reply to you.

          • Ted Kuntz

            I was hoping you would provide the scientific evidence of your position. Unfortunately this is the response I usually receive from pro-vaxxers when I ask them for evidence of long term safety. They find a reason to withdraw from the conversation. And yes, all three have been granted whistleblower status ans are reporting directly to congress this Fall.

          • Proponent

            Ted Kuntz: “I invite you to read the product information monograph for any one vaccine much less all of them.”

            Your choice.. pick one.

            Then, let’s take a look at the product monograph.. and more importantly.. which section/part of the monograph is referenced.

            Health Canada
            Guidance Document – Product Monograph:

            http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/dhp-mps/prodpharma/applic-demande/guide-ld/monograph/pm_mp_2013-eng.php

          • Ted Kuntz

            Thanks for sharing the link. I was referring to the product information monograph specific to each vaccine. This link is a generic guidance document.

          • Proponent

            Again..

            “Your choice.. pick one.”

            Pick a vaccine.

          • Ted Kuntz

            You don’t seem to understand the difference between the word “choice” and “anti”. The organization I support is Vaccine Choice Canada, not Vaccine Anti Canada. We support an individuals right to choice.

          • Proponent

            So you ardently stand by this statement found via Vaccine Choice Canada’s website..

            “It is recognized that informed patients, and their parents or guardians, will make the best healthcare decisions.”

            … as opposed to parents talking with their health care providers/doctors/pediatricians?

          • ciaparker2

            Obviously. Parents care about their individual children’s health and well-being, while health care providers are more worried about their careers and professional standing, and their need to stay on the good side of the pharma and vaccine companies. Enough said.

          • Proponent

            Are you speaking for Ted Kuntz?

          • Jack Sprat

            It is a shame you are so jaded by the medical profession. What GP or Paediatricians is more concerned with their careers or professional standing? Name three. Support your statement in anyway you can.

          • Ted Kuntz

            Thank you for your interest in Vaccine Choice Canada.

            Yes, we stand by our mandate to preserve and support the right and the medical ethic of informed consent. Informed consent involves two actions – being informed and the ability to choose. Unfortunately efforts are underway to deny individuals the right to choose whether they will participate in this invasive medical procedure. Additionally, there are efforts to deny the potential risks of vaccines. In Canada there is a black out in the major media with regards to reporting on issues of vaccine safety. It is challenging to make an informed decision when information is methodically being withheld.

            To your question, health providers, doctors, pediatricians, researchers, immunologists, amongst others are all good resources to deepen one’s understanding of this issue. Unfortunately Doctors receive little or no formal training on diagnosing and treating vaccine injury.

          • Proponent

            So.. and correct me if I am wrong.. you stated;

            “Unfortunately Doctors receive little or no formal training on diagnosing and treating vaccine injury.”

            .. to support your assertions and the statement found via Vaccine Choice Canada’s website (re: About VCC – Policy Statement on Vaccination) that;

            “It is recognized that informed patients, and their parents or guardians, will make the best healthcare decisions.”

            .. is this a fair representation?

            And what evidence do you have that there is a ‘black out in the major media with regards to reporting on issues of vaccine safety?

            As but one example.. Mr. Solomon of the National Post.

            Things are not adding up in my mind.. sorry, to say.

          • Ted Kuntz

            I appreciate this is new information for you and for many. I have been personally told by reporters that their efforts to report on vaccine injury are not allowed. I personally have written to the CBC and Globe and Mail to request balance in reporting, only to be told that “the science is clear”, “vaccines are safe” and they have no requirement to provide balance in reporting in the media.

            We like to believe that our media is independent and telling us the truth. Unfortunately, this is not true. As a result most individuals whose only source of information on vaccine safety is the media are under informed.

            An example of the bias is the persistent use of the label “anti-vaxxer” to describe anyone who questions the safety of vaccine. When I have been interviewed I have repeatedly requested that I be described as a parent of a vaccine injured child. Consistently they refuse my request and describe me as an “anti-vaxxer”.

            Most individuals who are labeled by others as “anti-vaxxers” are parents who vaccinated their children only to experience vaccine injury. It is disingenuous to describe parents who vaccinated their children as “anti-vaxxers”.

            There is a concerted effort to deny vaccine injury. I understand these efforts coming from an industry that wishes to protect its revenues. It is more difficult to understand from individuals who don’t have a financial interest. I suspect it is a need to protect a belief system.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Choice” usually means one has to determine between 2 or more courses of action, based upon all the evidence presented.
            How is it then that you only provide “evidence” of vaccine harms, and nothing about the dangers/risks from the diseases themselves?
            Surely informed choice depends upon full disclosure?
            Have you nothing to say that points out the benefits of vaccines?

          • Katia

            Look at his woo site. It tells you about alternatives to vaccines and how to cure VPDs with woo!
            http://vaccinechoicecanada.com/category/alternatives/alternatives-general/
            http://vaccinechoicecanada.com/category/alternatives/alternatives-specific-infections/
            Polio: http://vaccinechoicecanada.com/wp-content/uploads/vran-rodale-polio-history.pdf (Special nutrition program)
            Tetanus: Magnesium (seems to be legit, but who wants tetanus?)
            Chickepox: Homeopathy, which would work as well as anything else, as it’s a viral disease. But you’d be wasting your money as it’s useless.
            http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2015/04/20/398806514/fda-ponders-whether-homeopathy-is-medicine
            Pertussis: Homeopathy and herbs. (Standard treatment is antibiotics)
            Measles: This is just too funny! “Treatment was essentialy anthroposophic and homeopathic, e.g. giving
            Pulsatilla and Pneumodoron 1 and 2. Almost all children were given
            expectorants. Strict bedrest was considered most important. The exanthem
            (rash) was enhanced by means of external applications. One child who
            had pneumonia was given an antibiotic. Children with otits (ear
            infection) did not require antibiotics. The incidence of diarrhea and
            vomiting was remarkable, but probably does not rate as a complication.
            60 children had the accompanying condition for up to one week, 19 took
            longer to recover.”” (Diarrhea and vomiting can, of course, cause dehydration.)
            Also, Vitamin A (effective only in kids who are malnourished), garlic, echinacea, herbal teas such as camomile,
            catnip, elderflowers, linden blossoms, peppermint and yarrow, and essential oils. They believe ” the dangers of measles as a disease is grossly exaggerated, and the risks and side effects of the vaccine are minimized.”
            Flu: Fever, in an article written by a retired orthopedic surgeon, surely an expert in infectious influenza in kids, not.

          • Ted Kuntz

            HI Mike. Thanks for your question. Its a good one.

            I think you would agree the the perspective of benefit of the vaccine and risk of the illness is well documented in the media and by the medical system.

            The perspective that is under reported is the risks of the vaccine and the lack of long term clinical evidence of vaccine safety.

            We also have a recommended list of books on our website. Some do a very good job, in my view, of evaluating the risk/benefit of each individual vaccine. I much prefer this kind of evaluation than the kind that is most often presented – all vaccines are safe and effective and one size, one schedule fits all. What is missing is clinical evidence of the safety and effectiveness of giving multiple vaccines at once.

            For a history and assessment of disease risk today, I suggest “Dissolving Illusions -Disease, Vaccines, and the Forgotten History” by Dr. Suzanne Humphries.

          • Mike Stevens

            Gotcha – so because you feel the scientific case for vaccines is dominant in other outlets, you feel justified in promoting your own site as offering a true independent “choice” even though it presents but one side?
            Bizarre.

          • Ted Kuntz

            We offer information that is not readily available so that people can make a choice. Difficult to make a choice without full information. It really makes a mockery of informed consent.

            I agree with you. It is bizarre that both sides of the discussion aren’t fairly represented in the media and the medical establishment. It would be better for individuals and families if it were.

          • Mike Stevens

            I think the antivax side is over-represented in the media, in the pursuit of “balance”.
            So I don’t agree with you.

            It is also telling you accept you have a biased narrative, yet pretend to those dropping in on your site that you are all about fully informed choice and that you are objective.
            You are not, so maybe you should just tell people on your home page why you aren’t, and be more honest.

          • Ted Kuntz

            Thanks Mike. I appreciate your opinion. Thanks for the questions and the interest.

          • Mike Stevens

            Actually thank you Ted for your polite and considered responses. I appreciate we are at opposite ends of this topic but thanks all the same.

          • Ted Kuntz

            Thank you Mike. I actually think we are on the same end. We both are interested in healthy children and healthy adults. We have different ideas of how best to achieve that end.

          • sabelmouse

            i love your style!

          • sabelmouse
          • Proponent

            Think I fully understand now, as to the why you ‘rarely’ provide backing support for your assertions, sabelmouse.

            A couple of examples of the bunk contained in the webpages of that *blog..

            “Why hasn’t the autism rates dropped since thimerosal was phased out of two vaccines?

            “The timeline demonstrates as thimerosal was phased out of two vaccines in 2000 it was added to the flu vaccine and SIX new vaccines were added to the recommend schedule many containing the neurotoxin aluminum.”

            (*And don’t forget about how your other cohorts feel about.. blogs.)

            Cites the contents of a package insert as ‘evidence’ of harm.

            And and…

            .. go.. fish.

          • sabelmouse

            cia and others have explained this over and over.

          • http://dont.bother David Foster

            “Thompson admitted nothing”.

            Have you heard the recordings of the telephone conversations? Have you read the press release at least?? Thompson admitted a great deal, and there are documents already in the public domain which show he had serious concerns with how the CDC was handling the 2004 DeStefano study. It is clear he was pulled from testifying before the Govt Revorm committee because of these concerns.

          • Katia

            In his letter, he said he totally supported vaccines and that reasonable scientists can disagree.
            http://www.morganverkamp.com/august-27-2014-press-release-statement-of-william-w-thompson-ph-d-regarding-the-2004-article-examining-the-possibility-of-a-relationship-between-mmr-vaccine-and-autism/
            He has not been heard from in public since. He was incredibly, incredibly stupid in talking to Hooker and not asking Hooker why he was mining him like that. He blew his career out of the water.

            I will not give Wakefield and Hooker the sastisfaction of adding to their count of who watched their despicable video, making comparsions of vaccine supporters to Hitler and Pol Pot. Plus, they didn’t tell little Billy they were recording him. If Billy-boy had some misgivings, he’d have done better to talk to his minister, who could have probably counseled him on the appropriate approach and would have kept the conversation confidential.

          • http://dont.bother David Foster

            Yeah I saw that he included the requisite boiler-place pro-vaccine verbiage.

            Funny how you just ignore the part where he also said:

            “I regret that my coauthors and I omitted statistically significant information in our 2004 article published in the journal Pediatrics. The
            omitted data suggested that African American males who received the MMR vaccine before age 36 months were at increased risk for autism. Decisions were made regarding which findings to report after the data were collected, and I believe that the final study protocol was not followed.”

            He is even more blunt in the audio recordings.

          • Katia

            Do you know what “suggested” means? He admitted nothing.

            Did I say Thompson was dumb? Good grief! I’ve actually read a lot about this incident, and it’s not clear who sought out who to discuss this stuff, Thompson or that crook, Hooker. If Thompson sought out Hooker, he should have gone to a counselor or his pastor instead. If Hooker sought out Thompson, Thompson should have questioned his motives from the beginning.

          • http://dont.bother David Foster

            If you really had “read a lot about this incident” then you would have been aware that Hooker had been submitting FOIA’s for 10 years to get the raw data from various questionable CDC studies supposedly proving that vaccines do not cause autism. This was well known.

            What is evident from the recordings is that Thompson’s conscience finally got to him, he was tired of being part of the massive coverup that us “conspiracy whackos” have been talking about for many years.

            If the Congressional hearings happen and this all sees the light of day, then you will finally be forced to acknowledge the coverup.

        • Proponent

          Ted Kuntz: “No where does Mr. Solomon present as an anti-vaxxer. His purpose is to investigate and present vaccine facts.”

          But.. Mr. Solomon didn’t present ‘facts’ (i.e. his distortion and misrepresentation of Dr. Gregory Poland words on the measles vaccine) in a number of his articles posted to the National Post website.

          Have you read them?

          And did you read the *Respectful Insolence article that lilady R.N. linked to in her reply to your post?

          (*This one; “No, Lawrence Solomon, UNICEF and WHO are not trying to sterilize women with tetanus vaccines!”)

          • Ted Kuntz

            The statement I was addressing is the claim that Mr. Solomon is anti-vax. I don’t see anything in your reply that supports this statement. Questioning the safety of a vaccine does not make one anti-vax. We should all be questioning the safety of any invasive medical procedure that has known risks including death.

          • Proponent

            Once again..

            Have you read all of Mr. Solomon’s articles? Yes? No?

            He does not present ‘facts’, as you stated.. and my counterpoint was simply just that.

            And once more..

            Did you read the Respectful Insolence article? Yes? No?

          • Ted Kuntz

            I’m not sure what article you are referring to. Kindly send me the link and I will review it. Thanks.

          • Proponent

            Ted Kuntz: “No where does Mr. Solomon present as an anti-vaxxer. His purpose is to investigate and present vaccine facts.”

            What article (or articles) are you referring to in the above?

            Or..

            How did you come to view Mr. Solomon as not being ‘anti-vax’?

  • NeverRandom

    It’s funny how many here will, virtually, point a finger and stamp their feet, and name call – what this tells readers is, you have nothing of value to add to meaningful debate, but believe your opinion is more important than the reasoned and researched explanations presented by those on the opposite side of the discussion…This behavior makes you the troll.

    • Zogby

      Do you always upvote your own comments?

      I think ti’s funny how many of the phrases you use (eg. “nothing of value to add to meaningful debate”) are exactly word for word the same as David Foster

      Sockpuppets and fresh user accounts used to “shift” the discussion (to borrow another of Foster’s expressions) make the troll, amigo.

      • Katia

        Don’t forget Ted Kuntz. He’ll badger you for “peer-reviewed studies” and send you scurrying off to Google, with a supercilious condescending tone, but the group of which he is a board member cites Suzanne Humphries as an”expert”!

      • http://dont.bother David Foster

        We all know each other as we have all become concerned about vaccine safety through our own personal histories.

        Why are you interested in vaccine issues John?

        I find it fascinating that you and a bunch of the other brand new commenters popped up just a few months ago out of nowhere, and you are all inter-related, with many of you being affiliated with one Jennifer Allen, Communications Director of a “company” called Liquid Logic which supposedly creates websites for people. This “company” doesn’t even have a working phone number, and does anyone believe that this company actually expects people to pay them to create their website?

        http://www.liquidlogic.dot.us

        • http://plus.ly/cr4zyivan Ivan

          Looking at Zogby’s profile, it shows his join date as Dec 2, 2013. Not really a “brand new commenter.”

          • http://dont.bother David Foster

            Right. When was his oldest post on vaccine issues? Ditto for Brooke and Cathy. I’ll be waiting…

          • http://plus.ly/cr4zyivan Ivan

            Nice deflection tactic, but I think your association with Age of Autism and some 2000 plus comments under this “David Foster” nym on Disqus and other comment platforms has been brought up before.

            When did the Disneyland measles outbreak make this national news?

            That actually seems more legit than a guy who sits on the internet day after day using sockpuppets and bully tactics to shift the discussion, compadre.

          • suz norkan

            Even for the tec turd that suz is, she can smell funkiness with the the porn gangs join dates and oldest comments.

            Nice deflection tactic on your deflection tactic.

            Naughty naughty, Ivan! 😉

          • Proponent

            “When did the Disneyland measles outbreak make national news? How about SB277?”

            / This.

      • http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org David Gorski

        Ah, yes. That explains why elsewhere one of them whom I will not name wouldn’t even click links to posts about vaccines on Science-Based Medicine. Antivax to the core, which was obvious just from a perusal of comments…

        • http://dont.bother David Foster

          We just choose not to read or trust random blogs by random bloggers.

          I have read a fair amount of your stuff before. You write well, and you are actually quite convincing. But you always manage to leave out key details, and fail to mention anything that disagrees with your biased and predetermined perspective.

          Which explains your appeal. To someone who is less familiar with a topic, you appear to be an expert. To someone who is more familiar with the subject matter, you just look like a Tool.

          • http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org David Gorski

            Uh-huh. So tell me: What, specifically, did I get wrong about RFK, Jr. ?

            Nothing, that’s what.

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            Wow, this exchange just blows my mind.

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            I know, it always makes me suspicious when someone actually has knowledge in a particular field, articulates his thoughts clearly, and backs it up with proper interpretation of the literature and citations from tier-1 journals. That stuff drives me CRAZY! I would never trust someone like that.

            I’d much rather follow the ideas of a non-scientist who prefers to reference sources like the anti-vaccine crank group SafeMinds and the even nuttier Age of Autism. This is the most obvious case of cognitive dissonance I’ve seen in awhile.

          • Katia

            Or a computer programmer, who likely has never taken a bio course in his life!

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            Or even worse, just enough to think he knows something.

      • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

        A veritable who’s who of woo.

      • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

        Almost a clinic in astroturfing.

        • Brooke Dunne

          And how to defeat it.

          Nice job at Baghdad Bob’s, kiddo. 😉

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            Sorry, I missed your BB reference. I know the expression, but who is BB?

          • Brooke Dunne

            Sometimes I stumble upon old articles. It’s always the same names

            https://twitter.com/jeremyrhammond/status/545317315831926785

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            That’s what I thought. Hey, he deleted nearly 25 posts of mine, but AFAIK, I’m still not banned. I’m sure it’s just a matter of time. Probably for the better. I couldn’t take much more of the sock puppet brigade. Can you imagine what they must be like IRL?

            I was also appalled to see the way those socks went after David Gorski in those older posts. Really offensive to me to have a pseudoscience-swilling mouth breathers like them attacking the credibility of a guy who has earned his accolades.

          • Banzai Otis

            Oh my goodness, that is a complete disaster and poor @disqus_0bT5QNRHDf:disqus was mostly alone fighting the good fight. No wonder Hammond wanted a double standard for the suz norkan crowd, they are his groupies.

            Did you catch the post where ciaparker refers to “Expert Alain Couvier” ??

            And Suz’s tactics are on full display. She pulls the same ‘reverse ad-hom, prove your credentials with personal info’ thing that she did with @noodlyappendage1:disqus.

          • Brooke Dunne

            Yep. Mike is a warrior. Speaking of reverse ad-hom prove your credentials thing:

            Richard Falk’s Publisher ‘Foreign Policy Journal’ is just a 1-man, Truther-run website
            http://blog.unwatch.org/index.php/2013/04/28/richard-falks-publisher-is-911-truther-foreign-policy-journal-just-a-1-man-website/

          • Andrew Lazarus

            Quite a comedown from refereed journals. I would have expected better from Falk.

          • Zogby

            That Marathon bomber article that got the attention is a post from Falk’s WordPress com blog that Hammond lifted.
            https://richardfalk.wordpress.com/2013/04/19/a-commentary-on-the-marathon-murders/

            I’m curious if Falk even knew before it turned into a brouhaha.

            Just dropped a message on Falk’s article “Opposing Hillary Clinton, Supporting Bernie Sanders” which Hammond has on his front page.
            https://richardfalk.wordpress.com/2015/07/15/a-postscript-campaign-for-bernie-sanders/

            Let’s take this one for a walk.

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            How interesting.

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            This is just perfect:

            In reality, “Foreign Policy Journal” appears to be a one-man website, dedicated to extremist anti-American and anti-Israeli rants, with that one man, Jeremy R. Hammond (@jeremyrhammond) who describes himself as self-employed and living in Cross Village, Michigan, being a prolific 9/11 Truther.

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            Paradoxically, with Hammond, the deeper you dig, the more shallow the hole appears to be.

          • Banzai Otis

            And down the rabbit hole we go. I searched “9/11” on FPJ. Trigger alert for anyone with severe reactions to crazy.

            http://www.donotlink.com/fyr7

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            With such gems as “The U.S.’s Policy of Supporting Israel’s Illegal Colonization of Palestinian Land,” you’d think he would have enough people to ban from his fiefdom without venturing into the medical world. As Jeesus said to Elder Price in Book of Mormon, “what a d!ck.”

          • NoMoBongo

            You and “palestine” suck Israel’s d!ck. hahaha!

          • Zogby

            Don’t respond to NoMoBongo, please, Just flag it.

          • suz norkan

            Yep! For years… ‘tout it then out it’… because it’s nothing but ad hom if you exaggerate your creds to influence pov.

            Poor newbie Banzai! So much to learn!

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            Why do you think everyone on here is a newbie? It’s so odd. Plus, remember, one is ALLEGEDLY exaggerating their creds. They may actually have creds. And again, just because it rhymes doesn’t make it true 😉

          • suz norkan

            I know the asd/vpd circles! It’s done all the time on the internet!

            ‘And again’, it worked for Johnnie Cochran! 😉

          • Banzai Otis

            Are you a chat bot Suz, or do you claim to be an actual human?

          • suz norkan

            Nope! Haven’t you read? Suz doesn’t make claims!

          • suz norkan

            No and I don’t make claims either!

          • Banzai Otis

            So, you’re claiming that (1) you aren’t a chat bot and that (2) you don’t make claims? I’m not sure what to say to that. Both of those claims disprove (2), and the fact that you would make a claim that you don’t make claims is pretty strong evidence against (1).

            At any rate, you are saying you are an actual human?

          • suz norkan

            No! Nor do I make online claims!

          • suz norkan

            There is language on here which is far worse than mine. I’ve switched the words that I thought may have been found offensive. Neither is my content vulgar. Why are my posts all being tied up in mod?

            It’s not the recipients fault that these johhny come lately newbie posters decided to call us back to commentary that most have moved on from.

            Regardless, no! Not a bot & I’ve said before that I don’t make claims!

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            Looks like I got banned from WND. How did that happen? I only posted there once. Could it have been my lone post offended one of those Breitbart-worshipping mods???
            ——————–
            Savage: Disneyland measles part of Obama’s ‘medical genocide’
            FsmPastapharian 6 months ago Removed
            “You people are a bunch of ignorant fcking morons. Don’t breed. Seriously.”

    • Zogby

      Do you always upvote your own comments?

      I think ti’s funny how many of the phrases you use (eg. “nothing of value to add to meaningful debate”) are exactly word for word the same as David Foster

      Sockpuppets and fresh user accounts used to “shift” the discussion (to borrow another of Foster’s expressions) and abuse other users make the troll, amigo.

      • http://dont.bother David Foster

        Looks like some of your own are even turning on you Zogby, why would that be?

        Do you find it interesting that a Director at Liquid Logic (LV NV), Jennifer Allen (who herself does not comment), has within her Google circle no fewer than 5 of the folks (including Brooke) who have suddenly popped up on the comments sections of vaccine-related articles, out of nowhere? These are all seemingly unrelated folks across the country, but what links them together is being in the Google circle of Liquid Logic’s Communications Director. Does that seem odd to you?

        And I mean out of nowhere…”Ivan” has 84 Disqus comments and his oldest comment on vaccines is from just a month ago. Similar stories for Brooke Dunne, Cathy [McLaughlin], Doug [Mayes], Mike [Davis], [John] Zogby.

        Do I have proof? No. But we know astroturfing when we see it.

        Tell me, does this really look like the website of a company which is actually asking for people’s money to design their web sites?

        http://www.liquidlogic.dot.us

        • http://plus.ly/cr4zyivan Ivan

          Hey David,

          Thanks for copying your anonymous post from BigThink. That’s actually quite helpful. It shows how you use guest posts to intimidate other users, and apparently think it’s okay to creep on the social profiles of friends and coworkers of anyone who disagrees with you.

          I notice your Linkedin shows you left Qualcomm in October 2013.

          How are you paying the bills?

          • http://dont.bother David Foster

            I had actually deleted that BigThink post and was surprised when I saw it still there; I’m not sure why it turned into a Guest post unless the Moderator thought it should stay. Perhaps they thought there was something to it.

            I’ve never looked into any poster’s business until you and your gaggle showed up just a short time ago, out of the blue, all suddenly posting on the same articles and all upvoting just about every comment from anyone in the pack…it is clearly choreographed and the fact that so many of you supposedly disparate folks from across the country have connections to a Communications director for a company that supposedly creates websites for people, but the company has no working phone number and a “website” that would never be used to advertise a website company…

            We all know astroturfing when we see it.

            And we all know how you pay your bills…you authored many ads for pe**is enlargement products, but have since made your profile private and covered other tracks to the stuff you involve yourself with.

          • http://plus.ly/cr4zyivan Ivan

            “We all know astroturfing when we see it.”

            Well, not everyone. I’m thinking most people are probably unaware of the shady tactics commercial sites like naturalnews and for-profit “advocacy groups” like Age of Autism use, and where they got the idea.

            My profile is not private. I already replied to your sockpuppet about “the stuff you involve yourself with.” The internet is forever. Screenies are everything.

            So… deflection noted, but you raised the issue. You haven’t worked in a year and a half. How are you paying the bills David?

          • suz norkan

            Hey Ivan! Can you do a ‘screenie or such’ and combine my disqus acts. so I can keep all in one place with one password and sign in technique; even for sites requiring dual email verification?

            Thanks! I appreciate your hacking expertise!

          • http://dont.bother David Foster

            I’m a male model for Chippendales.

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            That would probably explain your desperate need to make some extra money by selling fear, confusion, and pseudoscience through your antivax sites.

          • Katia

            figures.

          • Proponent

            David Foster: “I had actually deleted that BigThink post and was surprised when I saw it still there; I’m not sure why it turned into a Guest post unless the Moderator thought it should stay.”

            “Removing and Editing Your Comments | DISQUS”

            “Registered commenters can only anonymize comments — comments can never be deleted except by a moderator.”

          • http://dont.bother David Foster

            Thanks for the info.

            I’m a programmer and that’s just irritating user interface behavior…if it gives you the option to delete it then it should delete it!

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            “I’m a programmer and that’s just irritating user interface behavior”
            I think Ione and the other socks would refer to this as “title touting.”

          • suz norkan

            No! Just suz!

  • Jonathan Murphy

    Why vaccinate children so much and so early when so many adults aren’t and it’s adults who make up the vast majority of herd immunity? Aluminum is in most vaccines and it is neurotoxic. Why is researching new, possibly improved vaccines banned? It seems wrong to give one corporation a monopoly on vaccines when it’s generally agreed on that competition makes things better. Measles only vaccine outperforms MMR in measles prevention and isn’t available in USA. CDC study shows 3.92 fold higher rate of autism in males who receive MMR before 2 years old so there is some epidemiological evidence of an association. If we say that thimerosol has been removed from vaccines do we ask why? Can a pregnant woman safely receive a flu vaccine or will her fetus bear the cost of the thimerosol? Statistically speaking, autism rates increase as the total number of vaccines increases and the amount of aluminum injected into a person increases. I’ve witnessed and cared for 2 children with SIDS who had multiple vaccines in the previous 2 weeks and no researchers will even look at SIDS and vaccinations. Give me a break. We can see the incidence of autism has dramatically risen.

    • Katia

      What woo publication told you all that? Researching new, possibly improved vaccines is banned. Could you cite a source? One corporation has a monopoly on vaccines. There are many vaccine manufacturers, and some vaccines are made by multiple manufacturers. How about a source for measles only vaccine outperforms MMR in measles prevention? The CDC study showed no such thing, to my knowledge. If you have a CDC source that says otherwise, post it. We know why thimerosal was removed from vaccines-parental pressure. The removal also made vaccines cost more. Thimerosal-free flu vaccines are available, and are widely used. Show a source for this increase in autism as vaccine rates increase.

      • NeverRandom

        How about immunization with the MMR simply fails to impart immunity? Highly vaccinated populations can and do contract the disease… http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2910058

        • Katia

          Sweet Home Alabama! Do you read this stuff?
          Here’s the conclusion: “A comparison of the first 45 cases and 90 matched controls suggested
          that cases were less likely than controls to have provider-verifiable
          school vaccination records (odds ratio (OR) = 8.1) and more likely to
          have been vaccinated at less than age 12 months (OR = 8.6) or at age
          12-14 months (OR = 7.0). Despite high vaccination levels, explosive
          measles outbreaks may occur in secondary schools due to 1) airborne
          measles transmission, 2) high contact rates, 3) inaccurate school
          vaccination records, or 4) inadequate immunity from vaccinations at
          younger ages.”

          Get it? More cases (kids who got measles) than controls (kids who did NOT get measles) had an absence verifiable records of immunization, and a vaccination date before one year of age, a non-standard practice even in 1985, the date of the article.

          That outbreak and others like it, including a huge outbreak in 1989-91 caused the ACIP to recommend a second dose of vaccine.

        • Mike Stevens

          You realise that the finding that highly vaxed populations can experience cases of disease in the vaccinated is NOT a sign of vaccine ineffectiveness, I hope?
          No vaccine is 100% effective, meaning that even in a 99% vaxed population of 1 million people, there will be 10,000 who are vulnerable.
          An outbreak of measles might affect 5000 of those, or maybe even all 10,000. The other 990,000 are protected by the vaccine.

          But if the 1 million were completely unvaxed, an outbreak would affect 1 million! That’s how these things work.

          • Realist

            Mike – Let’s see, at the worst, there were 775,000 cases of measles reported in the US (it was ~1958) the population of the US at that time was ~175M people; meaning that technically, the rate of contracting Measles, when not vaccinated, in the US is at-worst 0.4%. Therefore, your statement, “But if the 1 million were completely unvaxed, an outbreak would affect 1 million,” is, in fact, NOT “how these things work…” And the risk of death from Measles at this time of no vaccination and high outbreak numbers? 0.001%

            http://media.historyofvaccines.org/images/999991_540.jpg http://www.vaclib.org/images/graphs/US-Measles.jpg

          • Mike Stevens

            You are wrong.
            Each year there is a birth cohort of around 4 million kids born.
            Without vaccination, the number of unvaccinated kids soon rises.
            If measles is introduced into this completely unvaccinated subpopulation, it is likely that all those vulnerable would get measles.

            This was the situation prevaccine, when there were around 750,000 notified measles cases reported but between 3 and 4 million infections actually occurring every year. With no MMR vaccination, this situation will soon resume as the status quo. And we will start to see hundreds dying of measles every year once again.

      • Jonathan Murphy

        Russell Blaylock MD March 12, 2008.

      • Jonathan Murphy

        Dr Blaylock is an esteemed physician. He is a board certified neurosurgeon in practice for 25 years and a graduate of LSU and Medical College of South Carolina neurosurgery fellowship and residency. Dr Blaylock wrote the book on excitotoxins an and wrote a blog titled Vaccines, Neurodevelopment, and ASD.

      • Jonathan Murphy

        Thimerosal is banned in Italy because of its neurotoxicity. On May 23rd, 2012, Italian Judge Lucio Ardigo ruled that MMR given to a 15 month boy caused autism. The child immediately developed bowel and eating disorder and was diagnosed with regressive autism with cognitive delay his decision was based on expert medical opinion. Revealed as well is a confidential GSK report, the vaccine manufacturer documents 5 cases of autism, heretofore unreported, during its clinical trials. Source Vaccine Impact

        • Katia

          The same Italian court that convicted some scientists of failing to predict an earthquake?http://www.foxnews.com/science/2012/10/22/italian-court-convicts-7-scientists-for-failing-to-predict-earthquake/#

          • Jonathan Murphy

            Fox News Science? No not the same court. That CDC covered and a whistleblower released data showing 3.8 times higher autism risk in boys who got MMR before age 24 months says we should change vaccine schedule to place MMR at 24 months to reduce risk of neurotoxicity from MMR.

          • Jonathan Murphy

            Just one double blind placebo controlled trial of any individual or combined vaccine would be the best science to use to show how effective a vaccine or combo vaccine is. Its time to put vaccine, such asMMR, to scientific tests

    • Jonathan Murphy

      Banned was the wrong term to use here though as long as they can demonstrate continued efficacy, the current manufacturers have the federal contracts as I understand. My apology as I was feeling passionately that folks need to actually look at facts as to how the industry controls things.

    • Jonathan Murphy

      Source is CDC/MMWR 2008 Index of Notifiable Diseases United States. The raw data show the difference in the number of cases of measles when measles vaccine was used and after MMR was introduced.

  • Katia

    ATTENTION MODS: Ted Kuntz is a sock puppet for another poster from a few weeks ago. Unfortunately, I don’t remember that person’s name. The writing style and the condescension are exactly the same.

  • Katia

    Do note that Ted Kuntz’ group, “Vaccine Choice Canada”, which he says is not anti-ANYTHING, but pro-choice; formerly called themselves “VRAN (Vaccination Risk Awareness Network)”. The website is full of anti-vaccine baloney and woo. Ex: “Unvaccinated children are overall healthier with fewer allergies, developmental disorders and chronic diseases”. This is the first message on their home page. Also, ” “to understand the safety of vaccines, you have to know how a baby’s
    immune system works and what vaccines do biochemically in the body. That
    work has never been done” – Hilary Butler”

    DO NOT believe this man when he says he’s just “pro-choice”.
    http://vaccinechoicecanada.com/

  • NeverRandom

    Fear – it sells. For the pro-vaccinate-every-infant-32-times-in-the-first-24-months – do you realize that infants and children represent approximately 25% of the entire population of the USA? If your vaccine-induced herd “immunity” requires vaccinating 95% – even if you vaccinate every child, you are still woefully short of any “herd.” All the unvaccinated adults walking around represent disease vectors, according to your theory… https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=878442398864405&set=a.382590458449604.81280.100000959600966&type=1

    • Mike Stevens

      Adults were either vaccinated as kids themselves, or had the disease when they were kids. With the possible exception of pertussis, they are highly unlikely to be some form of novel “vector”.

      • NeverRandom

        Mike – the vaccinated as well as those “immune” through previous natural infection can and do still carry and spread diseases they are not expressing (either from transfer or from catching a subclinical case and shedding). Neither condition leaves a person with antibacterial/antiviral skin surfaces, nor with super germ killing power that destroys germs when they arrive in the tissues (however. If previously immunized through previous disease or vaccine that succeeded – the person will build an effective immune response before symptoms are noticeable)…

        • Katia

          You have never been so wrong.

          • Mike Stevens

            No idea where he gets his information, but I hesitate to even give it the name “medical”.

          • NeverRandom

            Hmmmm. National Institutes of Health – ring a bell? How about the Center for Disease Control – ever heard of them?

          • Mike Stevens

            Yes, but neither of them support the claims made.

            Making a false claim, and then falsely suggesting that it is backed up by scientific evidence is dishonest.
            Why do antivaxers lie?
            Because the truth doesn’t support their ideology, that is why.

          • Realist

            BOTH in fact DO host the information, one must actually READ the ENTIRE STUDY or full subject matter.

          • Realist

            Katia – Are you declaring that the vaccinated cannot catch and shed the disease they were vaccinated against? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9700638?dopt=Abstract

          • Katia

            And in conclusion: “Although viral transmission between protected individuals has never been directly demonstrated, the data describe a population in which protected but infectious persons could potentially be of epidemiological importance.”

            Never happened.

            Six years later, another research article: http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/189/Supplement_1/S165.full
            “We found no evidence that persons with inapparent measles virus infections shed measles virus. . . . These data suggest that inapparent measles virus infections are not likely to be highly contagious and are probably not important in measles virus transmission in immune populations. Inapparent infections should not be considered an impediment to measles control and elimination, at least in areas with low prevalence of HIV infection.”

          • NeverRandom

            Katia – How about people with apparent and PCR-proven vaccine strain Measles rash? Oh, that’s right, it is like Polio vaccine-induced Polio, er, I mean Acute Flaccid Paralysis…Measles vaccine strain Measles rash is “not Measles…” What a crock – if you whitewash what it is and fail to collect data on its occurrence, it doesn’t even exist (statistical magic at its finest).

          • Katia

            Not the sharpest point in the tiara there. The article you post is of a recently immunized child with a rash. That is a fairly uncommon, but not rare, side effect of the vaccine. It means the vaccine worked. Sneaky of you to post a screen shot, which I can’t quote from. Here’s the conclusion: “rashes are expected to occur after immunization; nucleic acid testing can be used when it is difficult to differentiate between wild and attenuated strains.”

          • Mike Stevens

            I suspect you will have to explain what a “test” is, never mind what “nucleic acids” are…..

    • Kepler 48k

      “Fear sells” The rallying cry of moral panic snake oil salesmen looking to fleece parents.

      Get a real job and actually contribute to society instead of being a con man.

      • NeverRandom

        Just who would I be conning and what is my gain? And, what do you imagine I do for income?

        • Kepler 48k

          Maybe you’re just a shill who does it for free?

          • Realist

            Kep – That is a, literal, impossibility.Check the dictionary.

          • Kepler 48k

            definition fits, thanks.

          • Kepler 48k

            a person who publicizes or praises something or someone for reasonsof self -interest, personal profit, or friendship or loyalty.

          • NeverRandom

            Seeing as I have no apparent fans (not to mention, this is virtually anonymous), there is no money in encouraging people to do their own research and think for themselves, the definition cannot be made to fit – however it fits your ilk ; you wish others to vaccinate so you will be safe in the herd, at the very least…

          • Kepler 48k

            Shill claims to be doing it selflessly, Film at 11pm.

  • Lindaxox

    Quite the attack on Kennedy, he seems to really bother you and your mother. Take another look – kids vaccines do still have some mercury, the flu vaccine that has plenty is now being recommended for children and children in the womb. There is lots of good independent studies done all over the world but they get no recognition or press in the US. The media is a blackout. I find it amazing that two Merck virologists are suing Merck for falsifying the results of the mumps vaccines doesn’t seem to even phase you. They added rabbit antibodies to boost efficiency. A CDC whistle blower that says their big study published in 2003 still being quoted as no link to autism was also falsified. The drug companies are fined billions for falsifying data, misrepresenting, out and out lying and it’s consistent. In reality very few studies have been done on the safety of vaccines, never a controlled group, never a study using saline solution for comparision, never any study on accumulative effects. The studies are done by the drug companies or their funded universities and none of those studies will ever say there is anything wrong or they won’t see the light of day. There has been some very good studies done in Israel by one of the world best immunologists, one of the severe dangers of mercury on brain neurons from Calgary University, the dangers of Al from the university of B.C. Actually far to mention to list although they have been listed on other sites. Dr. Pan has received substantial political support from the drug companies. He is not even in a position to be bringing that bill forward. That is against the rules. The conflicts of interest at the CDC is unbelievable – you have people going from the CDC to then VP of the vaccine dept at Merck. There are many others not quite that outrageous. Have you ever even looked into it? Have you ever read the amount of vaccines the US is receiving compared to every other country? Have you read any foreign press other than just the ones that confirm your belief? Do you know that the US is the most vaccinated country in the developed world and has the highest mortality rate for infants and children under 5? Do you know that the autism rate is 1 in 50? That should be the biggest concern, that is the epidemic. Do you know that 2 cases in courts in Italy have been settled on the basis that yes the vaccine caused the autism. Do you know that the Vaccine Injury Court has paid out over 3 billion for vaccine injury, two with autism called brain damage, same symptoms. After listening to both Dr. Offit, vaccine salesman of the year and Robert Kennedy, well Kennedy speaks more truth. Seems Dr. Offit’s book is a shallow piece with extreme exaggerations. There is something obviously very wrong and I think Kennedy and many scientists, MDs, virologists, immunologists, PhDs and the millions of parents of vaccine injured children,some of them Drs., are on to it. You might want to read the class action suit from Australia over Vioxx to get a feel for the drug company ethics.

    • Mike Stevens

      “the flu vaccine that has plenty is now being recommended for children and children in the womb”
      Just not true. The multidose flu vaccine comprises around a third of the available flu vaccine in use, and it is not recommended for pregnant women. And it doesn’t have “plenty” of mercury – the quantity is very small, and not shown to have previously caused any significant harm.

      The rest of your gishgallop is just that – a gishgallop.

  • Antivaccine Prochoice

    Oppose Senate Bill 277 – Protect Your Rights​

    The Health committee has a hotline – 916-651-4111 – you can leave a yes or no vote on SB277 on their recording. Don’t tie it up with arguments – just say you are against it. That’s it. Apparently they are counting these up and that may influence the meeting. They will stop counting soon, so call now!!! http://on.fb.me/1c6gJw3

  • A-

    Robert Kennedy Jr. is right. Where there’s smoke – there’s fire. Too many children have been injured or killed by vaccines. People can’t deny it anymore. The pharmaceutical industry can’t hide it. For the sake of children everywhere something has to change. And now the government wants to mandate vaccines, especially while Merck is under investigation for fraud- is inhumane and criminal.

    Robert Kennedy Jr. is one honorable man. A real man. Not afraid to stand alone and refuses to sit down. I applaud you Kennedy!

  • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

    I believe DR. Gorski (you are WELL aware of his credentials and they HAVE been clearly verified) is trying his best to educate your whole astroturf sock puppet gang. As accessible as his writing is to the average reader, I fear that he is not going to reach you – I mean with all those malicious sites he keeps linking to!

    • Brooke Dunne

      “My intellect is fine and it would actually be ‘ignorant’ of me to open links leading to ‘hate’ and ‘porn’ sites.” — suz norkaan http://disq.us/8o01jy

      Science Based Medicine is a porn site? Who knew?

      I’m surprised we’re not hosting it. 😛

      • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

        hahaha! That’s awesome!

        • Banzai Otis

          Hey, at the risk of dragging you back into the Hammond thread and getting you banned, I looked up the Project Censored award he was bragging about and posted some interesting facts. I don’t really know why, except maybe to satisfy a little bit of childish frustration at his narcissistic antics.

          If you’re up for a laugh check it out before he deletes it. It definitely explains a thing or two.
          http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2015/07/05/a-measles-death-vaccines-and-the-medias-failure-to-inform/#comment-2141522479

          • Brooke Dunne

            They got upstaged by InfoWars and PrisonPlanet. Still rockin the 2006 site design.

            But now for the headshot, Banzai: Ask him about the award. There’s nothing at Project Censored to show he ever received it.

          • Banzai Otis

            There was actually an infowars article claiming that Alex Jones had come in 2nd place for the award Hammond is highlighting. But, I couldn’t verify the claim. And, out of fairness, I did run across a Project Censored article that was pretty harsh on Jones. I guess they had a bad breakup. Maybe one of them found out the other was huffing extra chemtrails behind their back.

            http://www.donotlink.com/fydz

          • Brooke Dunne

            Editor: “We’re not going to run your stupid 9-11 piece.”

            Troofers: OMIGERDZ!!!1 CENSORSHIPS

            The only mention of Hammond on the Project Censored site is for a 2009 article he did on Israeli war crimes …

            https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/jet_fuel.png

          • Banzai Otis

            I didn’t see much info on the award one way or the other, so who knows. After getting a look at what Project Censored is apparently about, I can see them giving him an award.

            I don’t know how I missed that xkcd, I thought I’d read them all. Brilliant!

          • Brooke Dunne

            I can see them giving him an award. I can also see him getting a mention for an article he wrote then exaggerating that into the

            Project Censored Super Most Awesomest Investigative Journalist Ever Award!

            Know what I’m sayin?

          • Banzai Otis

            Yeah, I do. I’m just not confident enough either way to push him on it.

          • Zogby

            I got this one.

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            This is GREAT!

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            Thanks! I’ll do that. I’m sure it’ll be pure entertainment, and possibly the final nail in my FPJ coffin!

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            I just totally pussed out. I guess I’m not quite ready to give him a reason to ban me. Here’s the response I wrote before deleting all but the first line:

            This is some pretty impressive stuff! Nice job, Mr. Hammond.
            I have a couple of questions though:

            1. Do you understand that baculovirus vectors are very common tools in molecular biology, as well as canine kidney cells?

            2. Is it possible that a company can produce a product that is both good for society AND generates profits for them?

            3. Are there particular GMOs that you are against? Would you please list them along with the specific gene product, danger to humans, and related SNPs? I’d like to look into them, and avoid them if possible.

            4. This one has always bugged me: on chemtrails, assuming the nano-aluminum particles and elemental cadmium are being dispersed over wide areas (since they are generated at 35,000 feet) how do the pilots and other co-conspirators avoid poisoning their own family and friends, not to mention themselves? I’ve never gotten a straight answer to this one, so I hope you can help.

            5. Re: 9/11, do you think steel has to reach melting temperature of 2750F before suffering structural compromise, or is it possible for a building to collapse while burning nearly 10,000 gallons of fuel between 800F and 1500F, far below the 2750F required to melt the steel supports?

            Please get back to me as soon as you can. I’ll be waiting.

          • Banzai Otis

            lol, that’s okay. It’s the thought that counts. To be clear though, he didn’t write those articles, so I don’t know how much of that crazy he believes. I just thought it was hilarious that he would promote receiving an award from an organization that publishes that kind of garbage, while at the same time getting on his soap box about how crappy he thinks most journalists are.

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            Yes, his blatant hypocrisy is infuriating. But he has his minion of lapdogs and sock puppets patting him on the back for his “brave” article (whatever that means) spewing pseudoscience and half-truths. It’s no surprise that he would be associated with a conspiracy propaganda site. If anything, it’s comforting to know that his craziness is easily identified.

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            This comment takes on a whole new look after reading @brookedunne:disqus’s comment on FPJ and our friend Mr. Hammond.

          • Katia

            I saw Elvis today in Cleveland!

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            You saw Elvis? Cool.
            Was he spraying chemtrails over Ohio?

          • Katia

            Yes, he was!

      • suz norkan

        Who knows with you all, avatar # 92!

        Knowing you aduIt entertaining pro vax, links could have led to yet another of your s & m sites, or pix of sexuaI acts like zogby and ivan linked a while back, while cathy cunniIingus taught how to make a woman $quirt!

        I prefer to keep my hard drive $mut free, av 92 or whoever you are sweetie!

      • suz norkan

        Yes avatar # 92, or whoever you are! You and your crew have led many of us innocent and unsuspecting parents onto ‘white racist’ and other ‘hate’ sites, along with links to sites presenting graphic aduIt nudity and other such entertainment.

        The s&bm site is likely not vuIgar enough for yall yet. However, I prefer to keep my hard drive as $mut free as possible.

      • suz norkan

        I’ve unassumingly opened your links before you disinfected them Brookie dear, and was forwarded to images that should have had parental warnings.

        I prefer to keep my hard drive as prurient free as possible, thank you!

      • suz norkan

        What’s wrong Beakie? :(

        Yall cry about censorship and being banned at FPJ.

        But we know that your m.o. is, ‘when the truth hurts, censor it!

        Don’t you think the readers [and David Gorski] want to know the truth about what we’ve found at some of your links?

        Inquiring minds, ya know? Har d har!

        Contemptible AND cowardly!

        • Brooke Dunne

          If there’s anything inappropriate in any link I’ve ever posted, submit it to Disqus Support, troll.

          Until that happy day, continuing to post false and defamatory comments is a violation of the Discover Magazine TOS.

          “You must not abuse, harass, threaten, impersonate, or intimidate site staff or other site members.”
          http://discovermagazine.com/termsofuse

          Care to add another site to that growing list where you’ve been banned?

    • suz norkan

      Why do you continue to play in a 3 month old commentary? Right! You have the teeny peeny syndrome and need to prove something!

      Sorry! I don’t know who David Gorski is. And yes! I’ve opened some pretty nasty links from the likes of Brookie [aka avatar # 92], et al!

      • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

        Sorry. I took some time off for tending to my real life. I’m still catching up.

        As for Dr. Gorski, I’ll just copy a piece of his bio from the reputable blog site, on which he is the Chairman of the Board, https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org.
        You should check it out sometime, though I doubt you’d survive long on there. You see, the good doctor and his colleagues despise pseudoscience and quackery.

        David H. Gorski, MD, PhD, FACS is a surgical oncologist at the Barbara Ann Karmanos Cancer Institute specializing in breast cancer surgery, where he also serves as the Medical Director of the Alexander J. Walt Comprehensive Breast Center and Cancer Liaison Physician for the American College of Surgeons Committee on Cancer. Academically, he is an Associate Professor of Surgery and Oncology at the Wayne State University School of Medicine, where he serves as Chief of the Section of Breast Surgery, and is a member of the faculty of the Graduate Program in Cancer Biology. Additionally, he serves as chairman of the board of directors for the Society for Science-Based Medicine, a group dedicated to promoting good science in medicine and opposing pseudoscience in medicine. An investigator whose primary research interests include tumor angiogenesis and the role of glutamate receptors in promoting the growth and metastasis of breast cancer, Dr. Gorski also runs an active research laboratory and has recently taken an active interest in the problems of breast cancer overdiagnosis and overtreatment.

        • suz norkan

          Had I cared enough to know who David Gorski was, I’d have researched him myself. Thanks for your trouble, but I don’t get my science data from bloggers!

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            Wow, you’re a nasty disrespectful woman. You’re the one who went on a rampage insisting that I verify my credentials because otherwise my comments carry no more weight than, and I quote, “Alice the lunch lady.” So, here’s a guy whose name ends with “MD, PhD, FACS,” and who is a respected surgical oncologist, and in spite of that VERIFIED information you have the balls to refer to him as a “random blogger”??? Disgusting.

            My advice to you is to read a few of his “random blogs” because you would most certainly learn something. Do it! Go challenge your confirmation bias, get out of your little anti-science antivax bubble, and go learn something from the people who actually know what they’re talking about and are willing to take their valuable time to try to educate people exactly like you. I know you won’t. It would lead to cognitive dissonance on a level that would cause the implosion of your brain. But, how awesome would that be for you???

          • suz norkan

            Listen newb! I NEVER asked you for advice! I NEVER asked you for citations on your research. AND neither do I tell YOU where to research and get your data.

            Apparently, you missed the part where I stated that I’m not anti vax, but it’s typical stereo typing behavior for vax zealots such as yourself.

            I’ve said numerous times that ‘I’m my own drummer!’ I’ve ALSO said that ‘titles mean nothing to me’. Followed by, ‘however, some individuals are easily swayed by them and/or namedropping.’

            I suggested to readers [I assume including you] that without verification of stated credentials, readers should NOT allow any more weight to ‘expert comment’ than that of the ‘non expert’ lunch lady. This was in regard to you showing your alleged phd in science and posting comments on such topics.

            I don’t dispute David Gorskis’ creds as a physician. However, I often question my own doctors and they are frequently WRONG, which would have caused [and has caused in the past] devastating consequences, had they not listened to me. And I’m seen at distinguished medical teaching institutions.

            However, from what I’ve learned of Mr. Gorskis blogging, [as with raptor] his commentaries [and those from regulars of such blog followers] they include many arrogant narcissists and myopic minded, as yourself.

            You’ve been humiliated, and like a child, you’re all over the internet, lying and crying about it. Grow up and get over it! Pffft! Act like the scientist you CLAIM to be.

            But suz will continue to acquire data, open links, investigate credibility, form my own logical theories/conclusions and respond to commentary as I see fit, without interventions from the likes of you!

            You wrongly assume that anyone whose opinion differs from your own, has not had formal training; an erred and pretentious assumption. And many of us have been doing this for 25+ years.

            Come back and get in my face when you have some REAL experience under your belt, grasshopper!

            Mwah! Love, suz!

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            Newb! I love that <3 Thanks.

            Look, your pivot here isn't going to work. Your sentiments and intent are clear for all to see. Humiliated? How so? I feel like people in your sock brigade are angry at me because I will call them out on their bullsh*t. Are you referring to the threats made by Hammond to ban me from his irrelevant page? lol, like I care what that clueless truther thinks. If you want to know who has been humiliated, you need to look no further,

            But honestly, that is all unimportant. The reason that people come across as "arrogant narcissists and myopic minded" to you and your ilk is because they are right, and you are wrong. It's really that simple. Contrary to what you may believe, this is not a debate. That is a fallacy of false equivalence as I've said many times. The only reason for this discussion is because a now-disgraced fraud published a fabricated paper, and lay people with a public platform (Jenny McCarthy, Jim Carrey, Palin, RFK Jr., etc) never got the memo that it was a fraudulent study. And now, people like you and your colleagues refuse to let go of this stupidity. You ignore the science, cherry pick data to fit your narrative, and in many cases, just plain make sh*t up!

            The reason people with experience would assume that you and your gang of socks have had no formal training is because you clearly do not understand the literature, how to interpret primary research, or the difference between a reputable and non-reputable source. It's painfully clear. As for your professional experience, real or imagined, come back to preach to me when you hit 30+ yrs. Just sayin 😉

            Love ya lots! Mean it! FSM

          • kathy_lowen

            But, but… I saw it on the interwebs (LOL)!!

          • suz norkan

            I have the name of a good doctor that can help you with that stutter, sweetie!

          • suz norkan
          • kathy_lowen

            So what’s your point, or do you agree that, “Personal belief exemptions based on rejection of solid medical evidence about vaccine safety should be rejected outright”?

          • suz norkan

            Vax injures. That’s not even disputed by cdc or fda.

            We know our medical history & that of our families. The vax schedule should not be one size fits all, as is the case other medical & pharma interventions.

            What’s YOUR point? You, Pasta and avatar # 92 may do well to comment on what you know best; anyone can see that ain’t vax & vpd’s.

            I’m not sure why your friend called me back to comments I hadn’t visited for 3 mos., except to answer a sporadic love letter here and there. Unless he was too timid to face me where we were actually commenting at FPJ

            Science & medical evidence change everyday. Much has happened in 3 mos. This is an old thread and I’d made my comments & moved on.

            I’ve only revisited because your friend Pasta had dug up my old posts and decided to reply from these.

            We may meet up again in a more current vax war commentary!

          • kathy_lowen

            Your paranoia is misplaced (to put it mildly), as I dunno who you’re talking about. And in any case even your own links don’t support your tedious ‘case’, such as it is. But mostly you’re just rude, you make no sense and worse, you bore me. Buh-bye.

          • suz norkan

            Paranoia is owned by the germphobes, sweetie!

            That’s right! You don’t know WHO we’re talking about. You don’t know WHAT we’re talking about. You DON’T KNOW who I am. And you don’t know VAX!

            So what brought you HERE, kathy?

            Buh bye kathy.

            Mwah! Love, suz!

          • suz norkan

            Your intents are ‘painfully crystal clear’, darlin’!

            Owie! Ione, suz and Hammond made me look like a hiney hole! Wah! You make it worse with each whine you make all over the internet! :(

            I don’t have a sock brigade nor do I sock, or I’d be upvoting myself and talking to my sobriquets to advance my pov. Never happened! Never will! I have too much confidence and tolerance for diversity. So you fail with the infantile ‘sock/sock’ jokes!

            Don’t know about Mccarthy and Carey, except for being movie personalities, and don’t follow them otherwise.

            And if you speak of Wakefiled, I hadn’t even heard of him until last yr.

            And THERE’S the rub, Fsm! You erroneously think parents aren’t bright enough to make medical decisions for themselves and their families. Pffft and bwa haha!

            Oh the arrogance of perceived omnipotence!

            You keep mucking up, because you don’t know your opponent. But I know YOU, grasshopper!

            As yet, there is no unequivocal scientific consensus for pro vax zealotry!

            Come back and see me when there IS such, and I certainly won’t withhold my oxygen awaiting for you to do so, newb! 😉

          • suz norkan

            ‘My own drummer’ does not equate to ‘sock brigade!’

            Your intentions are transparent, Fsm

            I have no knowledge of your misperceptions and allegations of any ‘threat’, but would again point to your overcompensation of retaliation for your humiliating faux pas.

            To the contrary, your actions show that you ‘CARED’ intensely about Hammonds page.

            Of course you can’t see that yall are ‘myopic minded’ because you’re ‘myopic minded!’ 😉

            Per your statement above, ‘if I want to know who’s been humiliated, I need to look no further!’ Of course I don’t! I watched you break down like a baby right before my eyes, as did thousands of other readers.

            Childish assumptions by those who support medical terrorism, who claim that non vax parents are all supporters of Mccarthy and Carey, is nothing more than hackneyed hokum!

            You look foolish telling many of the parents you debate with that they have no ‘formal training’ in cellular bio, etc. You have no clue who you’re speaking with.

            So yeah! The joke [and humiliation] is on YOU, Fsm!

            Come back and try to show how smart you are, if and when yall can show that there is an unequivocal scientific consensus on the matter! I’ll leave the porch light on for ‘ya!

            ‘Mean it’ from the bottom of my <3!'
            Love, suz!

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            You are truly unhinged. I was not humiliated, proven wrong about anything, nor was I embarrassed about anything in front of anyone. I seriously don’t know wtf you’re going on about. Hammond is a tinfoil hat-wearing truther and his opinion means nothing to me. The others on the page posting trash show by their posts that they have no clue. Their abilities to breed have nothing to do with their knowledge of the things they want to blame for their misfortune. And for what it’s worth, I’m a parent, too. And you can bet she had all her shots and on schedule, as is required in my school district.

            Anyway, good luck with that whole joke thing. Go back and read the posts by the sock brigade if you want a joke or 50.

          • suz norkan

            You are extremely unhinged. You were terribly humiliated. You have now changed your profile to ‘alleged’ phd because you were called out regarding your credentials.

            I don’t know why you childishly continue to make reference to tinfoil hats nor do I know who or what the sock brigade it.

            Such delusions are all in your myopic, meme filled minds and lack of logic lobes.

            You want to vax, go for it. Most of us have no intent to stop you. You, don’t however, get to make demands on what we choose for our own medical interventions.

            Since I’ve copied your comment, nearly verbatim for my reply, we’ll certainly have a nice smoking gun regarding biased censorship, should my response be put on hold, while yours remains.

            Further, you called me out over here, because you couldn’t dump your junk on FPJ.

            You have a LOT of fancy footwork to do before you become vax/vpd savvy, and you and Brookie get to remove your training wheels.

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            Lmfao. Truly delusional. I won’t post anything on FPJ for two reasons, first, the tinfoil truther mod there will ban me whether or not I violate the TOS because he is threatened, and I’m not ready to play that card yet. I mean, it’s FPJ! How much can I care if I get banned from what is nothing more than an echo chamber run by a truther afraid to hear anyone contradict him. It’s no different than not wasting my time posting to Breibart very often. I prefer a place where valid ideas are exchanged. Knowing what I know about Truthy now, it’s no surprise how he reacted to being forced to defend his dishonest article.

            As for changing my bio, thanks for checking. You must really care. However, you misinterpret my sarcasm. Couldn’t you tell by my listing as a BIG Pharma shill? Oh well, no bother. Others with a better sense of humor certainly get it. And your misinterpretation based on what you read is kinda consistent with your whole raison d’être, no?

            And again with the newbie reference and training wheels. I’ve been fighting this battle, dear, since before there was a web. This insignificant corner of the net is hardly a blip on anyone’s radar. And as much as I appreciate the offer, I certainly don’t need any help. I can take care of myself just fine, as I’m sure Brooke can too. The science and the law are on our side. There’s a reason for that.

            But don’t worry. After everybody starts getting vaccinated, you’ll see that everything will be just fine. Kids will be fine, there will be no outbreaks of preventable disease, AND the data will not show any increases in autism, and everything else on your laundry list of concerns. some people will still continue with coffee enemas and miracle diets to cure cancer while others actually use the benefits of science to determine their precise genotype, guiding which drugs will specifically attack that tumor type. There are a lot of huge breakthroughs on their way. If you haven’t heard of CRISPR, look it up. It’s going to really revolutionize treatment.

            I’m so glad my favorite random blogger brought that forgettable story to my attention so I could come to spread my love. Aren’t you glad? Ok, big swim meet in the morning, so I better run! Kisses <3 FSM

          • suz norkan

            Oh and much of the science and ABSOLUTELY the law, is corrupt. You’ll see how many will comply with laws bought and paid for by corrupt politicians and lobbyists.

            Now, have a good swim. 😉

          • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

            Not my swim meet; my daughter’s.

            Yes, law, corporations, politicians, even some scientists are corrupt, as are the promoters of woo and pseudoscience. Hate them all! Fortunately, on that list, science is the only one that is self-correcting. Keep that in mind. Pseudoscience will only correct when the profits are to be found elsewhere. Pretty scary stuff, huh?

          • suz norkan

            ‘Science is merely the refinement of everyday thinking’.

            I don’t believe in anything called pseudo science. Just another meme for yall to promote your propaganda.

            Keep that in mind! Good bye Pasta!

          • suz norkan

            Your intentions are crystal clear and predictable. How typical of the hypocritical.

            You feel it’s ok to give yourself a title to subconsciously sway pov [but without any means of verification] while you imprudently accuse all those who oppose you of having ‘no formal training!’

            How could you KNOW that, Fsm?

            Those with the most intellect are confident, and don’t require your pro vax pretentiousness; and are less likely to boast about their training!

            Oh the arrogance of perceived omnipotence!

    • suz norkan
    • suz norkan

      Why are you bothering your new opponents [recent comments] in a 3 mo. old comment section?

      However, it’s true! I’ve opened some very vulgar links from Dunne @ avatar # 92, et al! I don’t know of a Gorski or sbm site!

  • https://www.AntivaxTinfoilHatWearingMoronsSuck.com FsmPastapharian

    Oh suz, you both underestimate and disappoint me.
    From wiki: In media, an echo chamber is a situation in which information, ideas, or beliefs are amplified or reinforced by transmission and repetition inside an “enclosed” system, where different or competing views are censored, disallowed or otherwise underrepresented.
    Try to keep up 😉

    • suz norkan

      I certainly know what an echo chamber is. It hardly correlates to commentary on the internet.

      Really reaching and LAME!

      Didn’t you say you have a swim to prep for sweetie?

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Collide-a-Scape

Collide-a-Scape is an archived Discover blog. Keep up with Keith's current work at http://www.keithkloor.com/

About Keith Kloor

Keith Kloor is a NYC-based journalist, and an adjunct professor of journalism at New York University. His work has appeared in Slate, Science, Discover, and the Washington Post magazine, among other outlets. From 2000 to 2008, he was a senior editor at Audubon Magazine. In 2008-2009, he was a Fellow at the University of Colorado’s Center for Environmental Journalism, in Boulder, where he studied how a changing environment (including climate change) influenced prehistoric societies in the U.S. Southwest. He covers a wide range of topics, from conservation biology and biotechnology to urban planning and archaeology.

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