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	<title>Comments on: How Are We to Make Progress With w?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 18:12:26 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Petabytes &#124; Cosmic Variance</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/comment-page-1/#comment-920</link>
		<dc:creator>Petabytes &#124; Cosmic Variance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Sep 2005 00:36:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/#comment-920</guid>
		<description>[...] Science magazine has a nice article about dark energy by Adrian Cho. But you can&#8217;t read it unless you subscribe. Except that the nice folks at UC Davis have decided that the article is nice publicity for Tony Tyson and the Large Synoptic Survey Telescope, so they&#8217;ve put the article online for free. See Mark&#8217;s post for some of the theoretical background. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Science magazine has a nice article about dark energy by Adrian Cho. But you can&#8217;t read it unless you subscribe. Except that the nice folks at UC Davis have decided that the article is nice publicity for Tony Tyson and the Large Synoptic Survey Telescope, so they&#8217;ve put the article online for free. See Mark&#8217;s post for some of the theoretical background. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/comment-page-1/#comment-919</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Aug 2005 04:52:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/#comment-919</guid>
		<description>Shantanu, it&#039;s just that the error bars were very big on that measurement.  It wasn&#039;t enough to say that the universe was accelerating, only that there wasn&#039;t enough matter to provide the critical density.  And there were a lot of such measurements, albeit also with substantial error bars.  It was one piece of the puzzle.  Nowadays, we think that supernovae or other methods are more precise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shantanu, it&#8217;s just that the error bars were very big on that measurement.  It wasn&#8217;t enough to say that the universe was accelerating, only that there wasn&#8217;t enough matter to provide the critical density.  And there were a lot of such measurements, albeit also with substantial error bars.  It was one piece of the puzzle.  Nowadays, we think that supernovae or other methods are more precise.</p>
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		<title>By: Shantanu</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/comment-page-1/#comment-918</link>
		<dc:creator>Shantanu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Aug 2005 00:59:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/#comment-918</guid>
		<description>Sean and/or  Mark and others,  how about  to my question about using
radio galaxies to measure dark energy?
Thanks</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean and/or  Mark and others,  how about  to my question about using<br />
radio galaxies to measure dark energy?<br />
Thanks</p>
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		<title>By: Gordon Chalmers</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/comment-page-1/#comment-917</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordon Chalmers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Aug 2005 22:01:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/#comment-917</guid>
		<description>Perhaps the &#039;experts&#039; will offer an opinion on these seeming fortuitous numbers?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps the &#8216;experts&#8217; will offer an opinion on these seeming fortuitous numbers?</p>
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		<title>By: Gordon Chalmers</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/comment-page-1/#comment-916</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordon Chalmers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Aug 2005 21:25:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/#comment-916</guid>
		<description>Recall the mass formula 10^i GeV + 2^j 5^k MeV, with almost exactly 5% of the contribution to the fermions coming from the latter.  20/21 is 95.2% and this &#039;number&#039; fits almost exactly the dark matter proportions.  Couldnt there be a bright explanation of this in the &#039;dark matter&#039; context?  The blog as a research tool; it seems reasonable with two Higgs or instantons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Recall the mass formula 10^i GeV + 2^j 5^k MeV, with almost exactly 5% of the contribution to the fermions coming from the latter.  20/21 is 95.2% and this &#8216;number&#8217; fits almost exactly the dark matter proportions.  Couldnt there be a bright explanation of this in the &#8216;dark matter&#8217; context?  The blog as a research tool; it seems reasonable with two Higgs or instantons.</p>
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		<title>By: Arun</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/comment-page-1/#comment-915</link>
		<dc:creator>Arun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Aug 2005 19:56:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/#comment-915</guid>
		<description>http://xxx.arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0508377

Authors:  Mikolaj Korzynski

Abstract:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Recently a new model of galactic gravitational field, based on ordinary General Relativity, has been proposed by Cooperstock and Tieu in which no exotic dark matter is needed to fit the observed rotation curve to a reasonable ordinary matter distribution. We argue that in this model the gravitational field is generated not only by the galaxy matter, but by a thin, singular disk as well. The model should therefore be considered unphysical. &lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://xxx.arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0508377" rel="nofollow">http://xxx.arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0508377</a></p>
<p>Authors:  Mikolaj Korzynski</p>
<p>Abstract:</p>
<blockquote><p>Recently a new model of galactic gravitational field, based on ordinary General Relativity, has been proposed by Cooperstock and Tieu in which no exotic dark matter is needed to fit the observed rotation curve to a reasonable ordinary matter distribution. We argue that in this model the gravitational field is generated not only by the galaxy matter, but by a thin, singular disk as well. The model should therefore be considered unphysical. </p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: The Landscape - For Real This Time &#124; Cosmic Variance</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/comment-page-1/#comment-914</link>
		<dc:creator>The Landscape - For Real This Time &#124; Cosmic Variance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Aug 2005 07:01:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/#comment-914</guid>
		<description>[...] This positivity is important. Such positive contributions to the total energy of the system will break the underlying &#8220;supersymmetry&#8221; of the string theory, and give a postitive value for the cosmological constant. (This potential energy of the system is referred to as the &#8220;vacuum energy&#8221;, being the &#8220;ground state&#8221; energy associated to universe thus constructed - this is the same as what a cosmological constant is, classically anyway.) We care about both of these because we know that the world is not supersymmetric (see the earlier post for what supersymmetry is) and because it is currently believed (and this may well turn out to be wrong (!) see Mark&#8217;s recent post) that our world does have a positive cosmological constant. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This positivity is important. Such positive contributions to the total energy of the system will break the underlying &#8220;supersymmetry&#8221; of the string theory, and give a postitive value for the cosmological constant. (This potential energy of the system is referred to as the &#8220;vacuum energy&#8221;, being the &#8220;ground state&#8221; energy associated to universe thus constructed &#8211; this is the same as what a cosmological constant is, classically anyway.) We care about both of these because we know that the world is not supersymmetric (see the earlier post for what supersymmetry is) and because it is currently believed (and this may well turn out to be wrong (!) see Mark&#8217;s recent post) that our world does have a positive cosmological constant. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/comment-page-1/#comment-913</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Aug 2005 22:02:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/#comment-913</guid>
		<description>Arun,

I think that they are arguing that what you are asserting is true in the usual analysis, but when the co-moving coordinates are used in the analysis this causes w to remain constant at 0 and consequently the field equation becomes non-linear. The justification of this approach comes from the notion of a &quot;gravitational-bound&quot; system, whatever that means.  The upshot is that, not withstanding the weak galactic field, the galactic dynamics are non-linear:

&lt;blockquote&gt;...insufficient attention has been paid to the fact that the stars that compose the galaxies are essentially in motion under gravity alone (&quot;gravitationally bound&quot;). It has been known since the time of Eddington that the gravitationally bound problem in general relativity is an intrinsically non-linear problem even when the conditions are such that the field is weak and the motions are non-relativistic, at least in the time-dependent case. Most significantly, we have found that under these conditions, the general relativistic analysis of the problem is also non-linear for the stationary (non-time-dependent) case at hand.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I can&#039;t argue the merits of this assertion.  All that I can do is ask that someone who can do so.  So far, I don&#039;t think anyone has, have they?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arun,</p>
<p>I think that they are arguing that what you are asserting is true in the usual analysis, but when the co-moving coordinates are used in the analysis this causes w to remain constant at 0 and consequently the field equation becomes non-linear. The justification of this approach comes from the notion of a &#8220;gravitational-bound&#8221; system, whatever that means.  The upshot is that, not withstanding the weak galactic field, the galactic dynamics are non-linear:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8230;insufficient attention has been paid to the fact that the stars that compose the galaxies are essentially in motion under gravity alone (&#8220;gravitationally bound&#8221;). It has been known since the time of Eddington that the gravitationally bound problem in general relativity is an intrinsically non-linear problem even when the conditions are such that the field is weak and the motions are non-relativistic, at least in the time-dependent case. Most significantly, we have found that under these conditions, the general relativistic analysis of the problem is also non-linear for the stationary (non-time-dependent) case at hand.</p></blockquote>
<p>I can&#8217;t argue the merits of this assertion.  All that I can do is ask that someone who can do so.  So far, I don&#8217;t think anyone has, have they?</p>
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		<title>By: Arun</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/comment-page-1/#comment-912</link>
		<dc:creator>Arun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Aug 2005 19:29:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/#comment-912</guid>
		<description>Doug,

What is the physics (as opposed to what is the math) of what the authors are arguing? It is that the rotation of the galaxy provides a contribution to the metric that is much stronger than the Newtonian contribution.  Based on what we know about gravity and various weak field expansions that exist for GR, this is implausible.  How do effects that die off at (1/r)^2, and  or faster sum up to exceed the (1/r) contribution?  Moreover the source of the (1/r)^2 effects is v/c smaller than the source of the (1/r) contribution.

Absolute certitude requires redoing the calculation independently.  For something very implausible, it is not worth the effort, at least, for someone like Sean.   However, it may be a good exercise to give students.

-Arun</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doug,</p>
<p>What is the physics (as opposed to what is the math) of what the authors are arguing? It is that the rotation of the galaxy provides a contribution to the metric that is much stronger than the Newtonian contribution.  Based on what we know about gravity and various weak field expansions that exist for GR, this is implausible.  How do effects that die off at (1/r)^2, and  or faster sum up to exceed the (1/r) contribution?  Moreover the source of the (1/r)^2 effects is v/c smaller than the source of the (1/r) contribution.</p>
<p>Absolute certitude requires redoing the calculation independently.  For something very implausible, it is not worth the effort, at least, for someone like Sean.   However, it may be a good exercise to give students.</p>
<p>-Arun</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/comment-page-1/#comment-911</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:43:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/#comment-911</guid>
		<description>I find it hard to believe that that Cooperstock and Tieu have made such an elementary error.  I don&#039;t think we are addressing the real issue here.  As I read it, they are asserting that the non-linearity arises unexpectedly because, with the use of co-moving coordinates, w acts differently.  In note 7, they write:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;em&gt;7Normally, the fall-off of w with R = (r2 + z2)^-1/2 is used to derive the total mass of an isolated system. However, w is constant in this system of coordinates by (9) and we cannot do so here. The w constancy does not imply that that the mass is zero. In other (non-co-moving) coordinate systems, w would be seen to be variable. With the field being weak and the system being non-relativistic, the mass is well-approximated simply by the integral of p over coordinate volume.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

 The constancy of w seems to be the key to their argument for non-linearity, so if non-linearity fails, as Sean asserts, is it because their argument for the constancy of w fails?  They write:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;em&gt;It is to be noted that it is the freely gravitating motion of the source material (the stars) in conjunction with the choice of co-moving coordinates (2) that leads to the constancy of w within the source. Had there been pressure, w would have been variable... the non-linearity of the galactic dynamical problem is manifest through the non-linear relation between the functions rho and N. Rotation under freely gravitating motion is the key here. By contrast, for time-independence in the non-rotating problem, there must be pressure present to maintain a static configuration, N vanishes for vanishing w and del^2w is non-zero yielding the familiar Poisson equation of Newtonian gravity. &lt;/em&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Is this a valid argument or not?  If not, why not?  It seems to me that we are trying to dismiss their argument rather than trying to answer it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find it hard to believe that that Cooperstock and Tieu have made such an elementary error.  I don&#8217;t think we are addressing the real issue here.  As I read it, they are asserting that the non-linearity arises unexpectedly because, with the use of co-moving coordinates, w acts differently.  In note 7, they write:</p>
<blockquote><p><em>7Normally, the fall-off of w with R = (r2 + z2)^-1/2 is used to derive the total mass of an isolated system. However, w is constant in this system of coordinates by (9) and we cannot do so here. The w constancy does not imply that that the mass is zero. In other (non-co-moving) coordinate systems, w would be seen to be variable. With the field being weak and the system being non-relativistic, the mass is well-approximated simply by the integral of p over coordinate volume.</em></p></blockquote>
<p> The constancy of w seems to be the key to their argument for non-linearity, so if non-linearity fails, as Sean asserts, is it because their argument for the constancy of w fails?  They write:</p>
<blockquote><p><em>It is to be noted that it is the freely gravitating motion of the source material (the stars) in conjunction with the choice of co-moving coordinates (2) that leads to the constancy of w within the source. Had there been pressure, w would have been variable&#8230; the non-linearity of the galactic dynamical problem is manifest through the non-linear relation between the functions rho and N. Rotation under freely gravitating motion is the key here. By contrast, for time-independence in the non-rotating problem, there must be pressure present to maintain a static configuration, N vanishes for vanishing w and del^2w is non-zero yielding the familiar Poisson equation of Newtonian gravity. </em></p></blockquote>
<p>Is this a valid argument or not?  If not, why not?  It seems to me that we are trying to dismiss their argument rather than trying to answer it.</p>
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		<title>By: Arun</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/comment-page-1/#comment-910</link>
		<dc:creator>Arun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Aug 2005 23:56:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/#comment-910</guid>
		<description>Hehe, then obviously the exercise answer is not in any easy place for the authors of the cited paper to find.

Anyway, I see that the paper has been submitted to the Astrophysics Journal. How do referees deal with such?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hehe, then obviously the exercise answer is not in any easy place for the authors of the cited paper to find.</p>
<p>Anyway, I see that the paper has been submitted to the Astrophysics Journal. How do referees deal with such?</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/comment-page-1/#comment-909</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:32:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/#comment-909</guid>
		<description>The non-linearity argument fails.  Again, you are in a regime where the deviations from flat space are extremely small, and linearization is perfectly okay.  Corrections are of order the perturbation squared, which are incredibly tiny.  If nonlinearities are ever important, they are important when gravity is strong, not when it is weak.  Even in the presence of angular momentum, the weak-field GR equations are quite accurate; it&#039;s a standard homework problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The non-linearity argument fails.  Again, you are in a regime where the deviations from flat space are extremely small, and linearization is perfectly okay.  Corrections are of order the perturbation squared, which are incredibly tiny.  If nonlinearities are ever important, they are important when gravity is strong, not when it is weak.  Even in the presence of angular momentum, the weak-field GR equations are quite accurate; it&#8217;s a standard homework problem.</p>
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		<title>By: Arun</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/comment-page-1/#comment-908</link>
		<dc:creator>Arun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:10:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/#comment-908</guid>
		<description>The metric outside a compact body of mass M and angular momentum S is
roughly, in spherical coordinates:


ds^2 = (1- 2M/r) dt^2 - dr^2/(1- 2M/r) - r^2 ( d&#952;^2  + sin&#952;^2 d&#966;^2)
        + ( 4S sin&amp;theta)/r^2 ( r sin&#952; d&#966;) dt

The last term is non-Newtonian and resembles the term with the function N
from the paper.  A rough estimation of its value at the periphery of a
galaxy shows it to be much smaller (by v/c, where v is an average stellar
velocity and by geometric factors - most of the mass contributes very
little to the angular momentum) than the Newtonian potential M/r.

I translate the main claim of the paper to be that the periphery of the galaxy is higly non-Newtonian, and motion is dominated by the angular momentum term. The non-linearity claim I translate to the claim that the frame dragging term accumulates as one moves from the center of the galaxy to the periphery until it dominates the Newtonian potential.  I do not know enough yet to be able to readily rule it out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The metric outside a compact body of mass M and angular momentum S is<br />
roughly, in spherical coordinates:</p>
<p>ds^2 = (1- 2M/r) dt^2 &#8211; dr^2/(1- 2M/r) &#8211; r^2 ( d&theta;^2  + sin&theta;^2 d&phi;^2)<br />
        + ( 4S sin&amp;theta)/r^2 ( r sin&theta; d&phi;) dt</p>
<p>The last term is non-Newtonian and resembles the term with the function N<br />
from the paper.  A rough estimation of its value at the periphery of a<br />
galaxy shows it to be much smaller (by v/c, where v is an average stellar<br />
velocity and by geometric factors &#8211; most of the mass contributes very<br />
little to the angular momentum) than the Newtonian potential M/r.</p>
<p>I translate the main claim of the paper to be that the periphery of the galaxy is higly non-Newtonian, and motion is dominated by the angular momentum term. The non-linearity claim I translate to the claim that the frame dragging term accumulates as one moves from the center of the galaxy to the periphery until it dominates the Newtonian potential.  I do not know enough yet to be able to readily rule it out.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/comment-page-1/#comment-907</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Aug 2005 09:11:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/#comment-907</guid>
		<description>Hello?  Sean, Mark?  Is there anybody out there?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello?  Sean, Mark?  Is there anybody out there?</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/comment-page-1/#comment-906</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Aug 2005 05:13:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/#comment-906</guid>
		<description>But Sean, what about his &quot;gravitationally bound&quot; argument for non-linearity, which he says &quot;applies to the stationary (non-time dependent) case,&quot; even when the field is weak and the motion non-relativistic?&quot;

Does the fact that the constituent stars of the galaxy are large rotating systems that contribute to the field, unlike the constituent planets of solar systems, play into the non-linearity of the field equation so significantly, as he claims?

He writes:

&lt;em&gt;Since the field equation for rho is non-linear, the simpler way to proceed in galactic modeling is to first find the required generating potential phi and from this, derive an appropriate function N for the galaxy that is being analyzed. With N found, (12) yields the density distribution. If this is in accord with observations, the efficacy of the approach is established.&lt;/em&gt;

Equation 12: (N2r+N2z)/r2 = (8piGrho)/c2

If the non-linearity argument fails, then it doesn&#039;t matter, but if it holds, then is this approach valid, as he claims?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But Sean, what about his &#8220;gravitationally bound&#8221; argument for non-linearity, which he says &#8220;applies to the stationary (non-time dependent) case,&#8221; even when the field is weak and the motion non-relativistic?&#8221;</p>
<p>Does the fact that the constituent stars of the galaxy are large rotating systems that contribute to the field, unlike the constituent planets of solar systems, play into the non-linearity of the field equation so significantly, as he claims?</p>
<p>He writes:</p>
<p><em>Since the field equation for rho is non-linear, the simpler way to proceed in galactic modeling is to first find the required generating potential phi and from this, derive an appropriate function N for the galaxy that is being analyzed. With N found, (12) yields the density distribution. If this is in accord with observations, the efficacy of the approach is established.</em></p>
<p>Equation 12: (N2r+N2z)/r2 = (8piGrho)/c2</p>
<p>If the non-linearity argument fails, then it doesn&#8217;t matter, but if it holds, then is this approach valid, as he claims?</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/comment-page-1/#comment-905</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Aug 2005 23:58:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/#comment-905</guid>
		<description>Sorry, I meant to reply to this.  I haven&#039;t read the paper (&lt;a href=&quot;http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0507619&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;astro-ph/0507619&lt;/a&gt;) in detail, but there are enough warning signs that I won&#039;t bother.  First, the Newtonian limit is extremely good for galaxies; corrections will be of order stellar velocities divided by the speed of light, which amount to 0.1% at best.  And as gravity gets weaker, the corrections become less important -- the opposite of what you would need to explain away dark matter.  Second, there are mistakes that are easy to spot -- e.g. you can&#039;t choose the four-velocity to be given by eq. (2), since it wouldn&#039;t be correctly normalized in the metric given by eq. (1).  I don&#039;t know where the important mistakes are, but they must be there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, I meant to reply to this.  I haven&#8217;t read the paper (<a href="http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0507619" rel="nofollow">astro-ph/0507619</a>) in detail, but there are enough warning signs that I won&#8217;t bother.  First, the Newtonian limit is extremely good for galaxies; corrections will be of order stellar velocities divided by the speed of light, which amount to 0.1% at best.  And as gravity gets weaker, the corrections become less important &#8212; the opposite of what you would need to explain away dark matter.  Second, there are mistakes that are easy to spot &#8212; e.g. you can&#8217;t choose the four-velocity to be given by eq. (2), since it wouldn&#8217;t be correctly normalized in the metric given by eq. (1).  I don&#8217;t know where the important mistakes are, but they must be there.</p>
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		<title>By: Arun</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/comment-page-1/#comment-904</link>
		<dc:creator>Arun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Aug 2005 23:22:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/#comment-904</guid>
		<description>Doug, I think a lot of astrophysicists will be kicking themselves if it turns out General Relativity is relevant in galactic dynamics.  But it doesn&#039;t seem intuitive either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doug, I think a lot of astrophysicists will be kicking themselves if it turns out General Relativity is relevant in galactic dynamics.  But it doesn&#8217;t seem intuitive either.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/comment-page-1/#comment-903</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Aug 2005 03:59:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/#comment-903</guid>
		<description>The paper is here:

&lt;a href=&quot;http://xxx.sf.nchc.gov.tw/abs/astro-ph/0507619&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;General relativity resolves galactic rotation without exotic dark matter&lt;/a&gt;

I too am really anxious to hear from the experts on this.  Can you imagine what eliminatiing dark matter from the picture will do?  Dark energy now gets bumped up to about 97%, right?  Sean, you&#039;ll have to redo all those pie charts! LOL.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The paper is here:</p>
<p><a href="http://xxx.sf.nchc.gov.tw/abs/astro-ph/0507619" rel="nofollow">General relativity resolves galactic rotation without exotic dark matter</a></p>
<p>I too am really anxious to hear from the experts on this.  Can you imagine what eliminatiing dark matter from the picture will do?  Dark energy now gets bumped up to about 97%, right?  Sean, you&#8217;ll have to redo all those pie charts! LOL.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/comment-page-1/#comment-902</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Aug 2005 03:18:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/#comment-902</guid>
		<description>Can someone give an expert opinion on the paper by Cooperstock and Tieu,
&quot;General relativity resolves galactic rotation without exotic dark matter&quot;,
astro-ph/0507619 ?
To a non-astro person like myself this seems a pretty big deal if it is correct...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can someone give an expert opinion on the paper by Cooperstock and Tieu,<br />
&#8220;General relativity resolves galactic rotation without exotic dark matter&#8221;,<br />
astro-ph/0507619 ?<br />
To a non-astro person like myself this seems a pretty big deal if it is correct&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Gordon Chalmers</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/comment-page-1/#comment-901</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordon Chalmers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Aug 2005 01:51:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/02/how-are-we-to-make-progress-with-w/#comment-901</guid>
		<description>Oops.  The d and u has m=1.

It seems to be quantization with two contributions, to a high accuracy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops.  The d and u has m=1.</p>
<p>It seems to be quantization with two contributions, to a high accuracy.</p>
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