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	<title>Comments on: Let the kids decide</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: L&#8217;ArrÃªt de mort &#187; Blog Archive &#187; CrÃ©ationnisme et ordinaire de la pensÃ©e</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/comment-page-1/#comment-1179</link>
		<dc:creator>L&#8217;ArrÃªt de mort &#187; Blog Archive &#187; CrÃ©ationnisme et ordinaire de la pensÃ©e</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Sep 2005 13:31:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/#comment-1179</guid>
		<description>[...] Et aussi. The case against intelligent design by Jerry Coyne. C&#039;est un peux vieux mais ce dessin (Teach both Theories, Let the Kids decide) est toujours aussi drÃ´le. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Et aussi. The case against intelligent design by Jerry Coyne. C&#8217;est un peux vieux mais ce dessin (Teach both Theories, Let the Kids decide) est toujours aussi drÃ´le. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Plato</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/comment-page-1/#comment-1178</link>
		<dc:creator>Plato</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Sep 2005 08:09:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/#comment-1178</guid>
		<description>I of course seen this cartoon earlier and had to remember where I had seen it, because like correlations we might see sometimes in terms of a certain landscape, I found this picture relevant in this way. Maybe this cartoon sketch set the course for this photograph? Speculating of course.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://stayfree.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/sciencestamps2.jpg&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://stayfree.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/sciencestamps2.jpg&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I of course seen this cartoon earlier and had to remember where I had seen it, because like correlations we might see sometimes in terms of a certain landscape, I found this picture relevant in this way. Maybe this cartoon sketch set the course for this photograph? Speculating of course.</p>
<p><a href="http://stayfree.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/sciencestamps2.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://stayfree.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/sciencestamps2.jpg</a></p>
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		<title>By: The Quest for Better Science Education &#124; Cosmic Variance</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/comment-page-1/#comment-1177</link>
		<dc:creator>The Quest for Better Science Education &#124; Cosmic Variance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:00:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/#comment-1177</guid>
		<description>[...] Which puts me in mind of an earlier post on this blog. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Which puts me in mind of an earlier post on this blog. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Alejandro Rivero</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/comment-page-1/#comment-1176</link>
		<dc:creator>Alejandro Rivero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Aug 2005 11:48:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/#comment-1176</guid>
		<description>And what kind of astrology do you teach? The problem with all these arts in their non-degenerate form is that there was a coexistence of scientific and supersticious approaches.

Let me to quote &lt;a href=&quot;http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Vitruvius/1*.html#4.9&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; Vitrubius&lt;/a&gt; for a good example of this:

&lt;i&gt;The precepts of the ancients, in this respect, should ever be observed. They always, after sacrifice, carefully inspected the livers of those animals fed on that spot whereon the city was to be built, or whereon a stative encampment was intended. If the livers were diseased and livid, they tried others, in order to ascertain whether accident or disease was the cause of the imperfection; but if the greater part of the &lt;b&gt;experiments&lt;/b&gt; proved, by the sound and healthy appearance of the livers, that the water and food of the spot were wholesome, they selected it for the garrison. If the reverse, they inferred, as in the case of cattle, so in that of the human body, the water and food of such a place would become pestiferous; and they therefore abandoned it, in search of another, valuing health above all other considerations. &lt;/i&gt;

Well, perhaps the translator exagerates by upgrading &quot;experÄ«rÄ«&quot; into a modern &quot;to experiment&quot;, but the thing is that even the activity of a seer can happen to be scientific. Then, what about mathematical operations such as looking for orbit periodicities or even to decide about a notation to divide the sky in equal parts?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And what kind of astrology do you teach? The problem with all these arts in their non-degenerate form is that there was a coexistence of scientific and supersticious approaches.</p>
<p>Let me to quote <a href="http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Vitruvius/1*.html#4.9" rel="nofollow"> Vitrubius</a> for a good example of this:</p>
<p><i>The precepts of the ancients, in this respect, should ever be observed. They always, after sacrifice, carefully inspected the livers of those animals fed on that spot whereon the city was to be built, or whereon a stative encampment was intended. If the livers were diseased and livid, they tried others, in order to ascertain whether accident or disease was the cause of the imperfection; but if the greater part of the <b>experiments</b> proved, by the sound and healthy appearance of the livers, that the water and food of the spot were wholesome, they selected it for the garrison. If the reverse, they inferred, as in the case of cattle, so in that of the human body, the water and food of such a place would become pestiferous; and they therefore abandoned it, in search of another, valuing health above all other considerations. </i></p>
<p>Well, perhaps the translator exagerates by upgrading &#8220;experÄ«rÄ«&#8221; into a modern &#8220;to experiment&#8221;, but the thing is that even the activity of a seer can happen to be scientific. Then, what about mathematical operations such as looking for orbit periodicities or even to decide about a notation to divide the sky in equal parts?</p>
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		<title>By: the one Intelligently designed</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/comment-page-1/#comment-1175</link>
		<dc:creator>the one Intelligently designed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Aug 2005 04:26:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/#comment-1175</guid>
		<description>Well just to let you know I do teach my students about astrology in my astronomy class and let them decide.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well just to let you know I do teach my students about astrology in my astronomy class and let them decide.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/comment-page-1/#comment-1174</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 18:12:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/#comment-1174</guid>
		<description>Saucy -- why do you think I want the black lab coat?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Saucy &#8212; why do you think I want the black lab coat?</p>
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		<title>By: Alejandro Rivero</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/comment-page-1/#comment-1173</link>
		<dc:creator>Alejandro Rivero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 18:11:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/#comment-1173</guid>
		<description>I can not get the point of the cartoon. Looking at the astronomer only, it seems to say that astrology has become as absurd as to be uneffective even as a theory of the sequence of astronomical phenomena. But then, why do magic  and phrenology get different status than astrology in the cartoon?

Secondary questions for a good discussion could be why Physics is shown against Magic instead of, say, Aristotelism? Surely Magic as a whole is closer to Medicine. Mythology could be related to physics, but mostly to astrophysics... And what about alchemy? The failure in alchemy are quantitative aspects, but the main postulate of alchemy is the use of dualities to classify reactions, and this is still taught in chemistry courses.

(If you are going to tell me that alchemy has also qualitative failure because the transmutation from mercury to gold is not exothermic, please check again the table of stable isotopes before clicking the Submit button)

Last, Risa, are you sure that the guy in the first square dress as a scientific? Er what university do you work in? I&#039;d like a position there!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can not get the point of the cartoon. Looking at the astronomer only, it seems to say that astrology has become as absurd as to be uneffective even as a theory of the sequence of astronomical phenomena. But then, why do magic  and phrenology get different status than astrology in the cartoon?</p>
<p>Secondary questions for a good discussion could be why Physics is shown against Magic instead of, say, Aristotelism? Surely Magic as a whole is closer to Medicine. Mythology could be related to physics, but mostly to astrophysics&#8230; And what about alchemy? The failure in alchemy are quantitative aspects, but the main postulate of alchemy is the use of dualities to classify reactions, and this is still taught in chemistry courses.</p>
<p>(If you are going to tell me that alchemy has also qualitative failure because the transmutation from mercury to gold is not exothermic, please check again the table of stable isotopes before clicking the Submit button)</p>
<p>Last, Risa, are you sure that the guy in the first square dress as a scientific? Er what university do you work in? I&#8217;d like a position there!</p>
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		<title>By: Saucy Wench</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/comment-page-1/#comment-1172</link>
		<dc:creator>Saucy Wench</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 18:09:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/#comment-1172</guid>
		<description>Sean went to a Catholic university for his undergrad. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean went to a Catholic university for his undergrad. <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/comment-page-1/#comment-1171</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 17:21:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/#comment-1171</guid>
		<description>Zero,

Ahh... Catholic school. I completely forgot about those. My brain associates Christian with evangelical (which is the type of school I attended). My mistake...

It is my understanding that many Catholic schools are top-notch in their curriculums.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zero,</p>
<p>Ahh&#8230; Catholic school. I completely forgot about those. My brain associates Christian with evangelical (which is the type of school I attended). My mistake&#8230;</p>
<p>It is my understanding that many Catholic schools are top-notch in their curriculums.</p>
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		<title>By: Zero</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/comment-page-1/#comment-1170</link>
		<dc:creator>Zero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 17:13:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/#comment-1170</guid>
		<description>Matt: I have never even heard of &quot;ACE&quot; or &quot;A Beka&quot;. Maybe they did not have such designations back when I was in (Catholic) school. In any case, I thought that I received a pretty good education in science and math -- certainly enough to get started with some serious physics once I got to college.

Zero</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt: I have never even heard of &#8220;ACE&#8221; or &#8220;A Beka&#8221;. Maybe they did not have such designations back when I was in (Catholic) school. In any case, I thought that I received a pretty good education in science and math &#8212; certainly enough to get started with some serious physics once I got to college.</p>
<p>Zero</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/comment-page-1/#comment-1169</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 14:18:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/#comment-1169</guid>
		<description>Zero,

Do you remember which curriculum was used (e.g. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.aceministries.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; ACE&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.abeka.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; A Beka&lt;/a&gt;)? I actually had no teachers using the ACE curriculum. I sat at a desk with work booklet in hand. This was a great way to learn Maths (for me anyway), but it didn&#039;t go far enough. I didn&#039;t know what an integral was until my second year of college.

I&#039;m currently only a Senior working on my B.S. in CS (PHYS minor). So mayhap there is still hope for me...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zero,</p>
<p>Do you remember which curriculum was used (e.g. <a href="http://www.aceministries.com" rel="nofollow"> ACE</a>, <a href="http://www.abeka.com/" rel="nofollow"> A Beka</a>)? I actually had no teachers using the ACE curriculum. I sat at a desk with work booklet in hand. This was a great way to learn Maths (for me anyway), but it didn&#8217;t go far enough. I didn&#8217;t know what an integral was until my second year of college.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m currently only a Senior working on my B.S. in CS (PHYS minor). So mayhap there is still hope for me&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Zero</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/comment-page-1/#comment-1168</link>
		<dc:creator>Zero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 13:52:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/#comment-1168</guid>
		<description>Then again, I went to a Christian school for my elementary-&gt;high school years, and I am a moderately successful astrophysicist today (and still very much a Christian).

Zero</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Then again, I went to a Christian school for my elementary-&gt;high school years, and I am a moderately successful astrophysicist today (and still very much a Christian).</p>
<p>Zero</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/comment-page-1/#comment-1167</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 13:27:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/#comment-1167</guid>
		<description>I went to a christian school for my elementary-&gt;high school years, and I am still trying to dig myself out of the math/science hole that experience put me in. Evil evolution, no labs (no proof no problem!), and no rigourous math/logic were par.

This is all to say that this is painfully humourous to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I went to a christian school for my elementary-&gt;high school years, and I am still trying to dig myself out of the math/science hole that experience put me in. Evil evolution, no labs (no proof no problem!), and no rigourous math/logic were par.</p>
<p>This is all to say that this is painfully humourous to me.</p>
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		<title>By: JoAnne</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/comment-page-1/#comment-1166</link>
		<dc:creator>JoAnne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 05:50:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/#comment-1166</guid>
		<description>Sean, everybody knows that the people in the black coats are the bad guys.  Purple is associated with wizards/magic, so that is out.   Blue, green, or red seem innocuous. I&#039;m thinking about red myself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean, everybody knows that the people in the black coats are the bad guys.  Purple is associated with wizards/magic, so that is out.   Blue, green, or red seem innocuous. I&#8217;m thinking about red myself.</p>
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		<title>By: Zero</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/comment-page-1/#comment-1165</link>
		<dc:creator>Zero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 04:06:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/#comment-1165</guid>
		<description>Another kinda looks like Ed Turner.

Zero</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another kinda looks like Ed Turner.</p>
<p>Zero</p>
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		<title>By: Suz</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/comment-page-1/#comment-1164</link>
		<dc:creator>Suz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 04:02:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/#comment-1164</guid>
		<description>I was always under the impression there was a glut of scientists and not enough jobs. In any case, those high school programs where they bus kids in to places like where I work and try to convince students that scientists are cool people kind of annoy me. I think of scientists as mostly socially inept and ethically challenged. Except, of course, my friends. It&#039;s probably because I&#039;ve been in grad school for too long.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was always under the impression there was a glut of scientists and not enough jobs. In any case, those high school programs where they bus kids in to places like where I work and try to convince students that scientists are cool people kind of annoy me. I think of scientists as mostly socially inept and ethically challenged. Except, of course, my friends. It&#8217;s probably because I&#8217;ve been in grad school for too long.</p>
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		<title>By: Chaz</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/comment-page-1/#comment-1163</link>
		<dc:creator>Chaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 03:49:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/#comment-1163</guid>
		<description>What we really have to worry about are the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.thepaincomics.com/weekly041229a.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Norse Creationists...&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What we really have to worry about are the <a href="http://www.thepaincomics.com/weekly041229a.htm" rel="nofollow">Norse Creationists&#8230;</a></p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/comment-page-1/#comment-1162</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 02:17:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/#comment-1162</guid>
		<description>Pyracantha--  It&#039;s unlikely to change, as the number of &quot;students&quot; will always be dominated by people in their teens and twenties.  But what you&#039;re doing is admirable, and there&#039;s no reason why people should stop seriously educating themselves just because they&#039;ve left school.  There&#039;s a whole virtual genre of books that are not textbooks yet teach individuals the gritty detail of some academic subject -- except nobody ever writes those books.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pyracantha&#8211;  It&#8217;s unlikely to change, as the number of &#8220;students&#8221; will always be dominated by people in their teens and twenties.  But what you&#8217;re doing is admirable, and there&#8217;s no reason why people should stop seriously educating themselves just because they&#8217;ve left school.  There&#8217;s a whole virtual genre of books that are not textbooks yet teach individuals the gritty detail of some academic subject &#8212; except nobody ever writes those books.</p>
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		<title>By: Pyracantha</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/comment-page-1/#comment-1161</link>
		<dc:creator>Pyracantha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 01:46:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/#comment-1161</guid>
		<description>Every article about teaching science in the USA that I have ever read assumes that the students are young, either in middle or high school or just entering college. In fact that article in the NY Times quotes a scientist as saying outright that it is not worth trying to teach adults science, because kids are the future of science.
I am 52 and just learning high school physics because I never knew it before and never was able to take courses in it, and I failed math in high school. I had to re-learn all the math I never knew before I could start physics. I hope to continue studying math and physics. I am not the &quot;future of science,&quot; but there may be other middle-aged types like me who want to learn, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Every article about teaching science in the USA that I have ever read assumes that the students are young, either in middle or high school or just entering college. In fact that article in the NY Times quotes a scientist as saying outright that it is not worth trying to teach adults science, because kids are the future of science.<br />
I am 52 and just learning high school physics because I never knew it before and never was able to take courses in it, and I failed math in high school. I had to re-learn all the math I never knew before I could start physics. I hope to continue studying math and physics. I am not the &#8220;future of science,&#8221; but there may be other middle-aged types like me who want to learn, too.</p>
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		<title>By: Gordon Chalmers</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/comment-page-1/#comment-1160</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordon Chalmers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 01:31:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/04/116/#comment-1160</guid>
		<description>It seems that chemistry is special.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems that chemistry is special.</p>
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