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	<title>Comments on: Paul Krugman on the Politics of Intelligent Design</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/05/paul-krugman-on-the-politics-of-intelligent-design/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/05/paul-krugman-on-the-politics-of-intelligent-design/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: Ian</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/05/paul-krugman-on-the-politics-of-intelligent-design/comment-page-1/#comment-1204</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Aug 2005 16:13:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/05/paul-krugman-on-the-politics-of-intelligent-design/#comment-1204</guid>
		<description>The NYT takes another well-deserved shot at the ID nonsense in the wonderful article: &quot;Independently, Two Frogs Blaze the Same Venomous Path&quot; (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/09/science/09frog.html?).The well-known principle of evolutionary convergence &quot;exemplifies just how non-random and ostensibly purposeful natural selection can be, and how readily it may be mistaken for evidence of supernatural &#039;design.&#039;&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The NYT takes another well-deserved shot at the ID nonsense in the wonderful article: &#8220;Independently, Two Frogs Blaze the Same Venomous Path&#8221; (<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/09/science/09frog.html?).The" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/09/science/09frog.html?).The</a> well-known principle of evolutionary convergence &#8220;exemplifies just how non-random and ostensibly purposeful natural selection can be, and how readily it may be mistaken for evidence of supernatural &#8216;design.&#8217;&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: S. McHugh</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/05/paul-krugman-on-the-politics-of-intelligent-design/comment-page-1/#comment-1203</link>
		<dc:creator>S. McHugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Aug 2005 00:07:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/05/paul-krugman-on-the-politics-of-intelligent-design/#comment-1203</guid>
		<description>I agree, FishEpid, it would be nice if a good understanding of the scientific method didn&#039;t have to be delayed until so late into one&#039;s professional developement.  And it doesn&#039;t need to be.  One of the physics profs here teaches a summer course to high school students in which they construct a geo-centric model for the solar system.  It&#039;s obviously very involved and taught with a straight face.  I think he even manages to convince a lot of students that reality is as such contrary to popular opion.  He eventually reveals an unremediable error in the model if no student finds it first.  Then shows how elegantly the helio-centric model performs.

Teaching an obviously outdated (erroneous) theory draws strong interest from the student since they *know* it&#039;s wrong.  And it seems to be a nice lesson in model-building.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree, FishEpid, it would be nice if a good understanding of the scientific method didn&#8217;t have to be delayed until so late into one&#8217;s professional developement.  And it doesn&#8217;t need to be.  One of the physics profs here teaches a summer course to high school students in which they construct a geo-centric model for the solar system.  It&#8217;s obviously very involved and taught with a straight face.  I think he even manages to convince a lot of students that reality is as such contrary to popular opion.  He eventually reveals an unremediable error in the model if no student finds it first.  Then shows how elegantly the helio-centric model performs.</p>
<p>Teaching an obviously outdated (erroneous) theory draws strong interest from the student since they *know* it&#8217;s wrong.  And it seems to be a nice lesson in model-building.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon DeDeo</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/05/paul-krugman-on-the-politics-of-intelligent-design/comment-page-1/#comment-1202</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon DeDeo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Aug 2005 23:23:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/05/paul-krugman-on-the-politics-of-intelligent-design/#comment-1202</guid>
		<description>I should be working on my thesis, but...

Hi David,

The problem is that companies (and now religious groups) have learned how to purchase the &lt;i&gt;outcome&lt;/i&gt; of a &quot;research&quot; program. It is (most people agree) OK to purchasing advertising, but in this case the companies (and &quot;researchers&quot;) are being unethical by claiming that a form of advertising is actually research. It&#039;s a form of deception.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deception

Note that the Bill of Rights permits unethical actions, and it is not &quot;advocating censorship&quot; to criticize speech or suggest someone should stop saying something because it is deceptive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should be working on my thesis, but&#8230;</p>
<p>Hi David,</p>
<p>The problem is that companies (and now religious groups) have learned how to purchase the <i>outcome</i> of a &#8220;research&#8221; program. It is (most people agree) OK to purchasing advertising, but in this case the companies (and &#8220;researchers&#8221;) are being unethical by claiming that a form of advertising is actually research. It&#8217;s a form of deception.</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising</a><br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research</a><br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deception" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deception</a></p>
<p>Note that the Bill of Rights permits unethical actions, and it is not &#8220;advocating censorship&#8221; to criticize speech or suggest someone should stop saying something because it is deceptive.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/05/paul-krugman-on-the-politics-of-intelligent-design/comment-page-1/#comment-1201</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Aug 2005 23:08:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/05/paul-krugman-on-the-politics-of-intelligent-design/#comment-1201</guid>
		<description>Mark,
Maybe I&#039;m being too picky here but your piece aroused a thought that perhaps there is a contradiction in what you and Krugman have said.  Hopefully you can clear it up for me.

Referring to the quotation in your piece:

&quot;Back in 1978 Mr. Kristol urged corporations to make &quot;philanthropic contributions to scholars and institutions who are likely to advocate preservation of a strong private sector.&quot; That was delicately worded, but the clear implication was that corporations that didn&#039;t like the results of academic research, however valid, should support people willing to say something more to their liking.&quot;

What&#039;s wrong with a private company funding research that advocates for that private company?  Isn&#039;t it a form of censorship to demand that; the private company should spend it&#039;s money in a different way?  If the researcher accepts the money from the private company to develop invalid research is it not the researcher&#039;s fault and not the company&#039;s?  I would say; yes it  is the researcher&#039;s fault.  For all you know, the company believes that the researcher they have hired is ethical and the research valid.  Besides, in the case of &quot;advocating (or not advocating) a strong private sector&quot;, the research is more often than not an opinion at best.
If the research is highly scientific (what I mean by &quot;highly scientific is in effect very close to a &quot;yes or no&quot; answer (which research is not, usually, in advocating or not advocating for a private sector)) well then it is clearly the fault of the researcher, should that research be incorrect.  Indeed in acting to defend itself and protect it&#039;s interests, the company is surely doing a great social good.  It is funding hard research that, assuming the researcher is ethical, will contribute greatly to general knowledge.  How is this a &quot;distortion&quot;?  You might answer &quot;because the scientist is unethical and the company is funding an unethhical scientist&quot;.  Well, if the scientist is unethcial he won&#039;t be a scientist for long, if his peers have anything to do with it!  He will be proved unethical by his peers and the company can no longer associate itself with him.  Am I being naive here?  Do I have too much faith in scientists&#039; ability to police themselves?  You might say here &quot;well, ID advocates have gotten scientists to vouch for them&quot;.  My answer is:  I don&#039;t think these &quot;scientists&quot; are held in very high regard.  The case against them is so strong that only faith can save them!&quot;

I therefore don&#039;t understand the supposed analogy here.  Namely, the public is presented with obviously valid, hard scientific research and obviously invalid, faith-based mysticism concerning ID.  And in the former case (the private sector Krugman quotation) we have the opinion of one side or the other to the validity of the private sector, which is based on a wide number of variables and really is a matter of your political/philosophical persuasion or worldview or &quot;opinion&quot;.

What you are advocating, therefore, isthe equating of censorship with the application of reason.  That (unless clarified) is a contradiction.

Cheers,

David</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark,<br />
Maybe I&#8217;m being too picky here but your piece aroused a thought that perhaps there is a contradiction in what you and Krugman have said.  Hopefully you can clear it up for me.</p>
<p>Referring to the quotation in your piece:</p>
<p>&#8220;Back in 1978 Mr. Kristol urged corporations to make &#8220;philanthropic contributions to scholars and institutions who are likely to advocate preservation of a strong private sector.&#8221; That was delicately worded, but the clear implication was that corporations that didn&#8217;t like the results of academic research, however valid, should support people willing to say something more to their liking.&#8221;</p>
<p>What&#8217;s wrong with a private company funding research that advocates for that private company?  Isn&#8217;t it a form of censorship to demand that; the private company should spend it&#8217;s money in a different way?  If the researcher accepts the money from the private company to develop invalid research is it not the researcher&#8217;s fault and not the company&#8217;s?  I would say; yes it  is the researcher&#8217;s fault.  For all you know, the company believes that the researcher they have hired is ethical and the research valid.  Besides, in the case of &#8220;advocating (or not advocating) a strong private sector&#8221;, the research is more often than not an opinion at best.<br />
If the research is highly scientific (what I mean by &#8220;highly scientific is in effect very close to a &#8220;yes or no&#8221; answer (which research is not, usually, in advocating or not advocating for a private sector)) well then it is clearly the fault of the researcher, should that research be incorrect.  Indeed in acting to defend itself and protect it&#8217;s interests, the company is surely doing a great social good.  It is funding hard research that, assuming the researcher is ethical, will contribute greatly to general knowledge.  How is this a &#8220;distortion&#8221;?  You might answer &#8220;because the scientist is unethical and the company is funding an unethhical scientist&#8221;.  Well, if the scientist is unethcial he won&#8217;t be a scientist for long, if his peers have anything to do with it!  He will be proved unethical by his peers and the company can no longer associate itself with him.  Am I being naive here?  Do I have too much faith in scientists&#8217; ability to police themselves?  You might say here &#8220;well, ID advocates have gotten scientists to vouch for them&#8221;.  My answer is:  I don&#8217;t think these &#8220;scientists&#8221; are held in very high regard.  The case against them is so strong that only faith can save them!&#8221;</p>
<p>I therefore don&#8217;t understand the supposed analogy here.  Namely, the public is presented with obviously valid, hard scientific research and obviously invalid, faith-based mysticism concerning ID.  And in the former case (the private sector Krugman quotation) we have the opinion of one side or the other to the validity of the private sector, which is based on a wide number of variables and really is a matter of your political/philosophical persuasion or worldview or &#8220;opinion&#8221;.</p>
<p>What you are advocating, therefore, isthe equating of censorship with the application of reason.  That (unless clarified) is a contradiction.</p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>David</p>
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		<title>By: Simon DeDeo</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/05/paul-krugman-on-the-politics-of-intelligent-design/comment-page-1/#comment-1200</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon DeDeo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Aug 2005 22:56:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/05/paul-krugman-on-the-politics-of-intelligent-design/#comment-1200</guid>
		<description>Wolfgang,

I think you just blew my mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wolfgang,</p>
<p>I think you just blew my mind.</p>
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		<title>By: Wolfgang</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/05/paul-krugman-on-the-politics-of-intelligent-design/comment-page-1/#comment-1199</link>
		<dc:creator>Wolfgang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Aug 2005 16:22:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/05/paul-krugman-on-the-politics-of-intelligent-design/#comment-1199</guid>
		<description>Simon and Mark

I was also opposed to ID and DI until I found this website:

http://www.venganza.org

I mean the chart explains even global warming ...
It convinced me and maybe it will convince you as well !</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Simon and Mark</p>
<p>I was also opposed to ID and DI until I found this website:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.venganza.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.venganza.org</a></p>
<p>I mean the chart explains even global warming &#8230;<br />
It convinced me and maybe it will convince you as well !</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/05/paul-krugman-on-the-politics-of-intelligent-design/comment-page-1/#comment-1198</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 22:55:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/05/paul-krugman-on-the-politics-of-intelligent-design/#comment-1198</guid>
		<description>Oh yes Simon, I couldn&#039;t agree more. Be sure to scrub well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh yes Simon, I couldn&#8217;t agree more. Be sure to scrub well.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon DeDeo</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/05/paul-krugman-on-the-politics-of-intelligent-design/comment-page-1/#comment-1197</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon DeDeo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 21:48:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/05/paul-krugman-on-the-politics-of-intelligent-design/#comment-1197</guid>
		<description>Take a look at the DI&#039;s so called &quot;wedge strategy&quot;:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy
http://www.antievolution.org/features/wedge.html

The DI is definitely not a scientific group and scientists who claim otherwise are either lying or duped; they are careful not to use words like &quot;Genesis&quot; and &quot;Christ&quot; in the current debates, but forcing a particular form of Christianity into the public schools is definitely part of their goal.

I have to wash my hands now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Take a look at the DI&#8217;s so called &#8220;wedge strategy&#8221;:</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy</a><br />
<a href="http://www.antievolution.org/features/wedge.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.antievolution.org/features/wedge.html</a></p>
<p>The DI is definitely not a scientific group and scientists who claim otherwise are either lying or duped; they are careful not to use words like &#8220;Genesis&#8221; and &#8220;Christ&#8221; in the current debates, but forcing a particular form of Christianity into the public schools is definitely part of their goal.</p>
<p>I have to wash my hands now.</p>
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		<title>By: Andre</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/05/paul-krugman-on-the-politics-of-intelligent-design/comment-page-1/#comment-1196</link>
		<dc:creator>Andre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 15:46:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/05/paul-krugman-on-the-politics-of-intelligent-design/#comment-1196</guid>
		<description>While on the topic of nice articles about intelligent design, here are a couple by H. Allen Orr (in the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bostonreview.net/br21.6/orr.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Boston Review&lt;/a&gt; and the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/050530fa_fact&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;New Yorker&lt;/a&gt;).  Being an evolutionary biologist, he provides good arguments against the weak ID creationist arguments but also puts this latest issue in the larger context of criticisms of evolution.  He highlights two important facts with examples of &lt;em&gt;successful&lt;/em&gt; criticism of evolution (see the end of the first article): evolutionary biologists are not close minded scientific zealots and there are good reasons why Michael Behe will never get a Nobel prize for &quot;irreducible complexity&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While on the topic of nice articles about intelligent design, here are a couple by H. Allen Orr (in the <a href="http://www.bostonreview.net/br21.6/orr.html" rel="nofollow">Boston Review</a> and the <a href="http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/050530fa_fact" rel="nofollow">New Yorker</a>).  Being an evolutionary biologist, he provides good arguments against the weak ID creationist arguments but also puts this latest issue in the larger context of criticisms of evolution.  He highlights two important facts with examples of <em>successful</em> criticism of evolution (see the end of the first article): evolutionary biologists are not close minded scientific zealots and there are good reasons why Michael Behe will never get a Nobel prize for &#8220;irreducible complexity&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Suz</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/05/paul-krugman-on-the-politics-of-intelligent-design/comment-page-1/#comment-1195</link>
		<dc:creator>Suz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 15:06:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/05/paul-krugman-on-the-politics-of-intelligent-design/#comment-1195</guid>
		<description>This post is totally on the mark, Mark.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This post is totally on the mark, Mark.</p>
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