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	<title>Comments on: Stories about Nature</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/12/stories-about-nature/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: Michael Kircher</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/12/stories-about-nature/comment-page-1/#comment-1437</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Kircher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Aug 2005 01:04:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/12/stories-about-nature/#comment-1437</guid>
		<description>From Amis:
&quot;Then the following

&quot;The more important lesson, that finding the right guru isn&#039;t really the path to enlightenment, remained elusive.&quot;

implies that certain lessons can&#039;t be learnt. (how come all the comments?)&quot;


I disagree.

There&#039;s a difference between learning from other various people and spending your life jumping from one guru to another, constantly seeking that special being who has all the wisdom of the world and if only you just follow their &quot;way&quot; all will be right in your world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From Amis:<br />
&#8220;Then the following</p>
<p>&#8220;The more important lesson, that finding the right guru isn&#8217;t really the path to enlightenment, remained elusive.&#8221;</p>
<p>implies that certain lessons can&#8217;t be learnt. (how come all the comments?)&#8221;</p>
<p>I disagree.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a difference between learning from other various people and spending your life jumping from one guru to another, constantly seeking that special being who has all the wisdom of the world and if only you just follow their &#8220;way&#8221; all will be right in your world.</p>
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		<title>By: Amis</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/12/stories-about-nature/comment-page-1/#comment-1436</link>
		<dc:creator>Amis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Aug 2005 06:49:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/12/stories-about-nature/#comment-1436</guid>
		<description>Then the following

&quot;The more important lesson, that finding the right guru isn&#039;t really the path to enlightenment, remained elusive.&quot;

implies that certain lessons can&#039;t be learnt. (how come all the comments?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Then the following</p>
<p>&#8220;The more important lesson, that finding the right guru isn&#8217;t really the path to enlightenment, remained elusive.&#8221;</p>
<p>implies that certain lessons can&#8217;t be learnt. (how come all the comments?)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Benjamin</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/12/stories-about-nature/comment-page-1/#comment-1435</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Aug 2005 15:43:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/12/stories-about-nature/#comment-1435</guid>
		<description>Sean said:

&quot;Science can&#039;t know everything, but it can study how the physical world behaves, and everything we&#039;ve learned about that behavior leads us to conclude that death is the end of consciousness.&quot;

Sorry Sean, consciousness is not in the same category as Russell&#039;s silly teapot orbiting Saturn, since that is totally ad hoc, does not fit in with physics in any way, and has no conceivable reason (unless tea-loving litterbug aliens passed through).  As for consciousness, just think carefully how it could possibly arise from chemicals or electro-chemical impulses.  What is the fundamental difference between chemicals in a test-tube and in the brain?  If you say &#039;organization&#039;, then is a computer conscious and why?  Using a term like &#039;emergent property&#039; is more bogus than so-called &#039;mysticism&#039;.  Consciousness is a tremendous mystery, which does not fit in at all with materialism, and you cannot simply sweep that under the rug.  At the same time, you are right to criticize &#039;What the Bleep&#039;, because that movie implies that we can wave a magic wand and create &#039;our&#039; reality as the say, and that is patently false.  We have no control over the laws of nature.

Also, intelligent design should most certainly not be taught as science, since it totally violates the scientific technique, which is based on correlated observations.  It might be the case, however, that some kind of &#039;God&#039; intended the primordial soup to cook up some life through natural processes, but that idea is still outside of the domain of science.

Physicists are extremely brilliant, but most of them need a good philosophy course.  It&#039;s not quite as trivial as they suppose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean said:</p>
<p>&#8220;Science can&#8217;t know everything, but it can study how the physical world behaves, and everything we&#8217;ve learned about that behavior leads us to conclude that death is the end of consciousness.&#8221;</p>
<p>Sorry Sean, consciousness is not in the same category as Russell&#8217;s silly teapot orbiting Saturn, since that is totally ad hoc, does not fit in with physics in any way, and has no conceivable reason (unless tea-loving litterbug aliens passed through).  As for consciousness, just think carefully how it could possibly arise from chemicals or electro-chemical impulses.  What is the fundamental difference between chemicals in a test-tube and in the brain?  If you say &#8216;organization&#8217;, then is a computer conscious and why?  Using a term like &#8216;emergent property&#8217; is more bogus than so-called &#8216;mysticism&#8217;.  Consciousness is a tremendous mystery, which does not fit in at all with materialism, and you cannot simply sweep that under the rug.  At the same time, you are right to criticize &#8216;What the Bleep&#8217;, because that movie implies that we can wave a magic wand and create &#8216;our&#8217; reality as the say, and that is patently false.  We have no control over the laws of nature.</p>
<p>Also, intelligent design should most certainly not be taught as science, since it totally violates the scientific technique, which is based on correlated observations.  It might be the case, however, that some kind of &#8216;God&#8217; intended the primordial soup to cook up some life through natural processes, but that idea is still outside of the domain of science.</p>
<p>Physicists are extremely brilliant, but most of them need a good philosophy course.  It&#8217;s not quite as trivial as they suppose.</p>
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		<title>By: lago</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/12/stories-about-nature/comment-page-1/#comment-1434</link>
		<dc:creator>lago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:55:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/12/stories-about-nature/#comment-1434</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;Real scientists will take what Nature tells them, and make sense of it as honestly and courageously as they can, regardless of what it says about their own place in the cosmos.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Finally, an explanation of why physicists are so humble.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;Real scientists will take what Nature tells them, and make sense of it as honestly and courageously as they can, regardless of what it says about their own place in the cosmos.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Finally, an explanation of why physicists are so humble.</p>
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		<title>By: Fyodor</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/12/stories-about-nature/comment-page-1/#comment-1433</link>
		<dc:creator>Fyodor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Aug 2005 01:53:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/12/stories-about-nature/#comment-1433</guid>
		<description>&quot;Science can&#039;t know everything, but it can study how the physical world behaves, and everything we&#039;ve learned about that behavior leads us to conclude that death is the end of consciousness. &quot;

Way to go, Sean! This is what we need, scientists who will honestly tell it how it is, and not go in for intellectual multiculturalism [&quot;the question of the so-called truth of statements about the afterlife is not relevant  here...we have to be sensitive to the way different cultures have different *discourses* when dealing with the human condition.....&quot;] or straight-out bullshit of the non-overlapping magisteria kind....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Science can&#8217;t know everything, but it can study how the physical world behaves, and everything we&#8217;ve learned about that behavior leads us to conclude that death is the end of consciousness. &#8221;</p>
<p>Way to go, Sean! This is what we need, scientists who will honestly tell it how it is, and not go in for intellectual multiculturalism ["the question of the so-called truth of statements about the afterlife is not relevant  here...we have to be sensitive to the way different cultures have different *discourses* when dealing with the human condition....."] or straight-out bullshit of the non-overlapping magisteria kind&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/12/stories-about-nature/comment-page-1/#comment-1432</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Aug 2005 22:43:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/12/stories-about-nature/#comment-1432</guid>
		<description>Benjamin, science dismisses things it has not had a chance to observe all the time.  (Whether such dismissal is &quot;arrogant&quot; is a subjective matter.)  As Bertrand Russell mentioned, he confidently rejects the idea of a perfect china teapot orbiting the planet Saturn, even though he had no direct evidence either way.  Science can&#039;t know everything, but it can study how the physical world behaves, and everything we&#039;ve learned about that behavior leads us to conclude that death is the end of consciousness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Benjamin, science dismisses things it has not had a chance to observe all the time.  (Whether such dismissal is &#8220;arrogant&#8221; is a subjective matter.)  As Bertrand Russell mentioned, he confidently rejects the idea of a perfect china teapot orbiting the planet Saturn, even though he had no direct evidence either way.  Science can&#8217;t know everything, but it can study how the physical world behaves, and everything we&#8217;ve learned about that behavior leads us to conclude that death is the end of consciousness.</p>
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		<title>By: Clifford</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/12/stories-about-nature/comment-page-1/#comment-1431</link>
		<dc:creator>Clifford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Aug 2005 22:32:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/12/stories-about-nature/#comment-1431</guid>
		<description>Torbjorn, My point is that this depends upon the religion in question.

-cvj</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Torbjorn, My point is that this depends upon the religion in question.</p>
<p>-cvj</p>
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		<title>By: Torbjorn Larsson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/12/stories-about-nature/comment-page-1/#comment-1430</link>
		<dc:creator>Torbjorn Larsson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Aug 2005 22:15:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/12/stories-about-nature/#comment-1430</guid>
		<description>Clifford, both religion and science can be used for altruistic or selfcentered means. But as David observes in a memorable way, religions glorify the human position.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clifford, both religion and science can be used for altruistic or selfcentered means. But as David observes in a memorable way, religions glorify the human position.</p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/12/stories-about-nature/comment-page-1/#comment-1429</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Aug 2005 22:06:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/12/stories-about-nature/#comment-1429</guid>
		<description>The proper scientific response to &#039;metaphysical&#039; questions such as God or afterlife is &#039;I don&#039;t know&#039; and not arrogant dismissal.  You are quite right that such issues are excluded from the purview of science, but to suppose that science can know everything is not scientific.  You do NOT know what will happen to your consciousness after you die, because you have not yet been able to observe it.  Also, there are well-known serious issues regarding the interaction of consciousness and quantum mechanics.  However, where that movie went wrong was to suppose that we can create the fantasy world that we wish.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The proper scientific response to &#8216;metaphysical&#8217; questions such as God or afterlife is &#8216;I don&#8217;t know&#8217; and not arrogant dismissal.  You are quite right that such issues are excluded from the purview of science, but to suppose that science can know everything is not scientific.  You do NOT know what will happen to your consciousness after you die, because you have not yet been able to observe it.  Also, there are well-known serious issues regarding the interaction of consciousness and quantum mechanics.  However, where that movie went wrong was to suppose that we can create the fantasy world that we wish.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/12/stories-about-nature/comment-page-1/#comment-1428</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Aug 2005 20:34:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/12/stories-about-nature/#comment-1428</guid>
		<description>I agree that you were probably a little hard on the audience.
I gave a talk last year in Santa Monica to the &quot;Los Angeles
Futurist Society&quot; about the age of the universe. I went in
expecting more or less the audience you describe, but I was
pleasantly surprised. Yes, there were the &quot;life coaches&quot;,
 the screenwriters whose plots involved dark matter, the
aged hippie who used the word &quot;grok&quot; without any trace of
irony, but the majority of the audience were pretty down to earth.
There were many people from IT fields, some of whom were doing some seriously cool stuff, and many intelligent questions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that you were probably a little hard on the audience.<br />
I gave a talk last year in Santa Monica to the &#8220;Los Angeles<br />
Futurist Society&#8221; about the age of the universe. I went in<br />
expecting more or less the audience you describe, but I was<br />
pleasantly surprised. Yes, there were the &#8220;life coaches&#8221;,<br />
 the screenwriters whose plots involved dark matter, the<br />
aged hippie who used the word &#8220;grok&#8221; without any trace of<br />
irony, but the majority of the audience were pretty down to earth.<br />
There were many people from IT fields, some of whom were doing some seriously cool stuff, and many intelligent questions.</p>
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