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	<title>Comments on: Fundamental Research and the Technology in Your Life</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/29/fundamental-research-and-the-technology-in-your-life/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: Practical Uses for Black Holes? &#124; Cosmic Variance</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/29/fundamental-research-and-the-technology-in-your-life/comment-page-1/#comment-2626</link>
		<dc:creator>Practical Uses for Black Holes? &#124; Cosmic Variance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Oct 2005 02:34:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/29/fundamental-research-and-the-technology-in-your-life/#comment-2626</guid>
		<description>[...] (This reminds me of a post I did a while ago.) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] (This reminds me of a post I did a while ago.) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bad Physics Joke Explained, Part I &#124; Cosmic Variance</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/29/fundamental-research-and-the-technology-in-your-life/comment-page-1/#comment-2625</link>
		<dc:creator>Bad Physics Joke Explained, Part I &#124; Cosmic Variance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Sep 2005 03:39:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/29/fundamental-research-and-the-technology-in-your-life/#comment-2625</guid>
		<description>[...] In the realm of gravity, you&#8217;ve probably heard about Einstein&#8217;s description of gravity as something to do with the geometry of spacetime. More massive objects warp spacetime more than less massive ones, etc. When you approach things this way, you find that Newton&#8217;s gravity is just an approximation to this more fundamental formulation of the physics of gravity. If you don&#8217;t use Einstein&#8217;s picture, you&#8217;ll get things wrong in many applications. (These are not just &#8220;out there&#8221; applications to astronomy and cosmology: Your GPS navigation system uses it too. But we&#8217;ve spoken of this before.) So, thinking like a good physicist, you can ask something analogous to the quantum situation. Given a mass m, what is the length scale beyond which (relativistic) gravity effects cannot be ignored?  This &#8220;Schwarzschild&#8221; scale involves two fundamental constants of Nature, the speed of light again, and Newton&#8217;s gravitational constant, G. Notice that the larger m is, the larger this scale is. So in fact, most everyday objects and physics lies well below this scale, just like most everyday objects and physics lies well above the scale of quantum physics. The key point to take away from all of this is that a given mass has those particular length scales associated to it, given by the formula. A different mass has new length scales, just use the formulae. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] In the realm of gravity, you&#8217;ve probably heard about Einstein&#8217;s description of gravity as something to do with the geometry of spacetime. More massive objects warp spacetime more than less massive ones, etc. When you approach things this way, you find that Newton&#8217;s gravity is just an approximation to this more fundamental formulation of the physics of gravity. If you don&#8217;t use Einstein&#8217;s picture, you&#8217;ll get things wrong in many applications. (These are not just &#8220;out there&#8221; applications to astronomy and cosmology: Your GPS navigation system uses it too. But we&#8217;ve spoken of this before.) So, thinking like a good physicist, you can ask something analogous to the quantum situation. Given a mass m, what is the length scale beyond which (relativistic) gravity effects cannot be ignored?  This &#8220;Schwarzschild&#8221; scale involves two fundamental constants of Nature, the speed of light again, and Newton&#8217;s gravitational constant, G. Notice that the larger m is, the larger this scale is. So in fact, most everyday objects and physics lies well below this scale, just like most everyday objects and physics lies well above the scale of quantum physics. The key point to take away from all of this is that a given mass has those particular length scales associated to it, given by the formula. A different mass has new length scales, just use the formulae. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Clifford</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/29/fundamental-research-and-the-technology-in-your-life/comment-page-1/#comment-2624</link>
		<dc:creator>Clifford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:43:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/29/fundamental-research-and-the-technology-in-your-life/#comment-2624</guid>
		<description>I love those hand crank ice cream makers! Thanks!

-cvj</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love those hand crank ice cream makers! Thanks!</p>
<p>-cvj</p>
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		<title>By: Athena</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/29/fundamental-research-and-the-technology-in-your-life/comment-page-1/#comment-2623</link>
		<dc:creator>Athena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:39:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/29/fundamental-research-and-the-technology-in-your-life/#comment-2623</guid>
		<description>Clifford, another conversational tidbit!  Here&#039;s the latest cross-fertilization of scientific disciplines reported in the news related to food science.  Since you had mentioned ice cream processed using liquid nitrogen earlier, I thought you might find this intriguing, though I can&#039;t vouch for tastier.

The &quot;ice cream&quot;  (in quotes because this product does not meet the standard of identity for ice cream) was chilled faster, capitalizing on fundamental scientific knowledge.  As quoted in the article...

&lt;blockquote&gt;
She [the MIT graduate student] was seeking a project involving thermodynamics, the science of converting heat into other forms of energy, which is exactly what happens when liquid ice cream mix solidifies.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The associate professor and his graduate student developed the method in MIT&#039;s Cryogenic Engineering Laboratory, which is usually to generate ultra-low temps in investigating superconductivity.  What is of interest to ice cream maunufacturers, besides a novel tactile experience, is the saving of energy, thus reducing costs in ice cream production. Here&#039;s the link to the article:
http://www.boston.com/ae/food/articles/2005/08/28/mit_crew_churns_out_ice_cream_with_sizzle/?page=2


Now, where is that darned hand crank ice cream freezer?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clifford, another conversational tidbit!  Here&#8217;s the latest cross-fertilization of scientific disciplines reported in the news related to food science.  Since you had mentioned ice cream processed using liquid nitrogen earlier, I thought you might find this intriguing, though I can&#8217;t vouch for tastier.</p>
<p>The &#8220;ice cream&#8221;  (in quotes because this product does not meet the standard of identity for ice cream) was chilled faster, capitalizing on fundamental scientific knowledge.  As quoted in the article&#8230;</p>
<blockquote><p>
She [the MIT graduate student] was seeking a project involving thermodynamics, the science of converting heat into other forms of energy, which is exactly what happens when liquid ice cream mix solidifies.
</p></blockquote>
<p>The associate professor and his graduate student developed the method in MIT&#8217;s Cryogenic Engineering Laboratory, which is usually to generate ultra-low temps in investigating superconductivity.  What is of interest to ice cream maunufacturers, besides a novel tactile experience, is the saving of energy, thus reducing costs in ice cream production. Here&#8217;s the link to the article:<br />
<a href="http://www.boston.com/ae/food/articles/2005/08/28/mit_crew_churns_out_ice_cream_with_sizzle/?page=2" rel="nofollow">http://www.boston.com/ae/food/articles/2005/08/28/mit_crew_churns_out_ice_cream_with_sizzle/?page=2</a></p>
<p>Now, where is that darned hand crank ice cream freezer?</p>
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		<title>By: Plato</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/29/fundamental-research-and-the-technology-in-your-life/comment-page-1/#comment-2622</link>
		<dc:creator>Plato</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2005 15:21:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/29/fundamental-research-and-the-technology-in-your-life/#comment-2622</guid>
		<description>In light of athena&#039;s post.

Historically, how about the simple valuation of potatoes chips that are now used with refridgeration technology.:) I am thinking of McCains rise. While the etiquette of the dinner table might be fast foodand  junk food junkies, still they converse heartfelt about the technological wonders.

Physiological extensions of robot arms? Silicon valley, and the transitor?

I remember how proud my brother was when he held his ipod boom box on his shoulder:) Or how 1 and zero&#039;s were punch cards, and vast rooms of reel tape.:)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In light of athena&#8217;s post.</p>
<p>Historically, how about the simple valuation of potatoes chips that are now used with refridgeration technology.:) I am thinking of McCains rise. While the etiquette of the dinner table might be fast foodand  junk food junkies, still they converse heartfelt about the technological wonders.</p>
<p>Physiological extensions of robot arms? Silicon valley, and the transitor?</p>
<p>I remember how proud my brother was when he held his ipod boom box on his shoulder:) Or how 1 and zero&#8217;s were punch cards, and vast rooms of reel tape.:)</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/29/fundamental-research-and-the-technology-in-your-life/comment-page-1/#comment-2621</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:13:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/29/fundamental-research-and-the-technology-in-your-life/#comment-2621</guid>
		<description>Well, Quantoken, either no one wants to discuss the important issues of which you speak, or else maybe no one wants to discuss them with &lt;em&gt;you&lt;/em&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, Quantoken, either no one wants to discuss the important issues of which you speak, or else maybe no one wants to discuss them with <em>you</em>.</p>
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		<title>By: iso42</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/29/fundamental-research-and-the-technology-in-your-life/comment-page-1/#comment-2620</link>
		<dc:creator>iso42</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2005 12:40:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/29/fundamental-research-and-the-technology-in-your-life/#comment-2620</guid>
		<description>Clifford,

of course you are right that in the long run the bad papers are forgotten (since nobody can reproduce the results) and the good ones survive. This is the beauty of science.

But your topic was political and fiscal support for (fundamental) science and thus short term decisions. e.g. When it comes to global warming, many findings are labeld &quot;junk science&quot; and
it is easy for politicians to dismiss scientists using the argument that we do not know for sure
if the majority view is correct. The finding (if it is correct!) that a majority of scientific papers is
flawed will not help in this situation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clifford,</p>
<p>of course you are right that in the long run the bad papers are forgotten (since nobody can reproduce the results) and the good ones survive. This is the beauty of science.</p>
<p>But your topic was political and fiscal support for (fundamental) science and thus short term decisions. e.g. When it comes to global warming, many findings are labeld &#8220;junk science&#8221; and<br />
it is easy for politicians to dismiss scientists using the argument that we do not know for sure<br />
if the majority view is correct. The finding (if it is correct!) that a majority of scientific papers is<br />
flawed will not help in this situation.</p>
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		<title>By: Quantoken</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/29/fundamental-research-and-the-technology-in-your-life/comment-page-1/#comment-2619</link>
		<dc:creator>Quantoken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2005 06:39:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/29/fundamental-research-and-the-technology-in-your-life/#comment-2619</guid>
		<description>Clifford:

    99% of published papers are either wrong one way or another, or outright worthless, &lt;b&gt;that in itself is not surprising and not that big a deal&lt;/b&gt;, because we know 99% of people in the research community really do not have the wisdom of a science researcher, and they are just in this massive modern industry to make a living.

    But the troubling fact is knowing full well 99% of papers could be wrong, yet &lt;b&gt;few&lt;/b&gt; people ever demonstrated a healthy skepticism. They have totally lost their own ability of independent thinking, and their selection criteria boils down to a simple rule that if it is accepted by main stream, then it must be correct, and vise versa.

    Take &lt;a&gt;this as an example&lt;/a&gt;. The one single strongest evidence that the universe is \&quot;accelerating\&quot;, is composed of data compiled from &lt;b&gt;no more than a few dozen photons&lt;/b&gt;, collected from 10 billion light years way, and those few dozen photons are even mixed in a whole bag of a couple thousand other photons, from the sam remote galaxy and indistinguisable. And it is one sole data set, not reproduced by any one else, and there is no other similar observations of similar events to back it up.

    And yet &lt;b&gt;no one&lt;/b&gt; ever questioned the validity of such un-repeated observational data. The original author claimed it was none-repeatable because it was rare to observe a supernova that far away. That\&#039;s nonsense. If you are talking about observing 10 billion light years away, the universe is so huge, containing trillions of galaxies, each galaxy containging trillions of stars, if you calculate the odd you look at any part of the sky, and some where 10 billion light years away there happen to be one or two supernovaes just happen to be exploded right at the moment. Such odd is virtually 100%.

    And there is no indication any one still has any decent wisdom at all. I provided &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.peakoil.org/&quot;&gt;this link&lt;/a&gt; which paints a groomy picture of an imminent oil crisis which could be a complete catastropy to human civilization. I thought if one has a function brain, he/she could either agree or disagree with the opinion. Either way it\&#039;s OK. We can at least discuss why we agree or why we disagree, and find out which opinion is right and which is wrong. But &lt;b&gt;no one said anything&lt;/b&gt;. It\&#039;s like your brains simply become &lt;b&gt;numb&lt;/b&gt; and stop functioning altogether. Why? Where is independent thinking?

Quantoken</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clifford:</p>
<p>    99% of published papers are either wrong one way or another, or outright worthless, <b>that in itself is not surprising and not that big a deal</b>, because we know 99% of people in the research community really do not have the wisdom of a science researcher, and they are just in this massive modern industry to make a living.</p>
<p>    But the troubling fact is knowing full well 99% of papers could be wrong, yet <b>few</b> people ever demonstrated a healthy skepticism. They have totally lost their own ability of independent thinking, and their selection criteria boils down to a simple rule that if it is accepted by main stream, then it must be correct, and vise versa.</p>
<p>    Take <a>this as an example</a>. The one single strongest evidence that the universe is \&#8221;accelerating\&#8221;, is composed of data compiled from <b>no more than a few dozen photons</b>, collected from 10 billion light years way, and those few dozen photons are even mixed in a whole bag of a couple thousand other photons, from the sam remote galaxy and indistinguisable. And it is one sole data set, not reproduced by any one else, and there is no other similar observations of similar events to back it up.</p>
<p>    And yet <b>no one</b> ever questioned the validity of such un-repeated observational data. The original author claimed it was none-repeatable because it was rare to observe a supernova that far away. That\&#8217;s nonsense. If you are talking about observing 10 billion light years away, the universe is so huge, containing trillions of galaxies, each galaxy containging trillions of stars, if you calculate the odd you look at any part of the sky, and some where 10 billion light years away there happen to be one or two supernovaes just happen to be exploded right at the moment. Such odd is virtually 100%.</p>
<p>    And there is no indication any one still has any decent wisdom at all. I provided <a href="http://www.peakoil.org/">this link</a> which paints a groomy picture of an imminent oil crisis which could be a complete catastropy to human civilization. I thought if one has a function brain, he/she could either agree or disagree with the opinion. Either way it\&#8217;s OK. We can at least discuss why we agree or why we disagree, and find out which opinion is right and which is wrong. But <b>no one said anything</b>. It\&#8217;s like your brains simply become <b>numb</b> and stop functioning altogether. Why? Where is independent thinking?</p>
<p>Quantoken</p>
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		<title>By: Clifford</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/29/fundamental-research-and-the-technology-in-your-life/comment-page-1/#comment-2618</link>
		<dc:creator>Clifford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2005 03:07:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/29/fundamental-research-and-the-technology-in-your-life/#comment-2618</guid>
		<description>iso42....Intersting, but I don&#039;t understand this point. Wrong papers do not, by and large, taint science&#039;s positive contributions.... wrong papers largely report irreproducable work,  and then those papers disappear after a while. That is another thing that distiguishes science from art or religion. Stuff that does not work does not get anywhere. It&#039;s not like bad papers are used to produce bad technology that does bad things, while the results of good papers get incorporated into GPS systems and the like...

Of course, there are well known examples of flawed &quot;science&quot; (which might have been written up into papers) being used to justify evil political aims, but that is a different matter, no?

-cvj</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>iso42&#8230;.Intersting, but I don&#8217;t understand this point. Wrong papers do not, by and large, taint science&#8217;s positive contributions&#8230;. wrong papers largely report irreproducable work,  and then those papers disappear after a while. That is another thing that distiguishes science from art or religion. Stuff that does not work does not get anywhere. It&#8217;s not like bad papers are used to produce bad technology that does bad things, while the results of good papers get incorporated into GPS systems and the like&#8230;</p>
<p>Of course, there are well known examples of flawed &#8220;science&#8221; (which might have been written up into papers) being used to justify evil political aims, but that is a different matter, no?</p>
<p>-cvj</p>
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		<title>By: iso42</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/29/fundamental-research-and-the-technology-in-your-life/comment-page-1/#comment-2617</link>
		<dc:creator>iso42</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2005 02:14:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/29/fundamental-research-and-the-technology-in-your-life/#comment-2617</guid>
		<description>If we celebrate science here, we should also acknowledge a darker side ...
I just read an article which claims that a majority of science papers is wrong
(you can get links to this study by clicking on my nickname, warning: evil self-promotion).
Such a finding is obviously not helpful when discussing the value of (fundamental) science [or when discussing with quantoken 8-) ]

By the way what is a reasonable estimate for wrong papers in physics, e.g. as stored on arXiv ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If we celebrate science here, we should also acknowledge a darker side &#8230;<br />
I just read an article which claims that a majority of science papers is wrong<br />
(you can get links to this study by clicking on my nickname, warning: evil self-promotion).<br />
Such a finding is obviously not helpful when discussing the value of (fundamental) science [or when discussing with quantoken <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_cool.gif' alt='8-)' class='wp-smiley' /> ]</p>
<p>By the way what is a reasonable estimate for wrong papers in physics, e.g. as stored on arXiv ?</p>
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