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	<title>Comments on: Painting pictures of astronomical objects</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
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		<title>By: Astrojan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/comment-page-1/#comment-2642</link>
		<dc:creator>Astrojan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2006 04:35:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/#comment-2642</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://160.114.99.91/astrojan/gravity.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Pushing Gravity&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://160.114.99.91/astrojan/gravity.htm" rel="nofollow">Pushing Gravity</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mainstream breakthrough &#124; Cosmic Variance</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/comment-page-1/#comment-2641</link>
		<dc:creator>Mainstream breakthrough &#124; Cosmic Variance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Nov 2005 04:39:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/#comment-2641</guid>
		<description>[...] But all the publicity, of course, is currently associated with Lisa&#8217;s new book more than with any recent breakthroughs. As predicted, I&#8217;ve written a review of Warped Passages, along with Michio Kaku&#8217;s book Parallel Worlds, which has now appeared in American Scientist. You&#8217;ll see that these are very different books, and it shouldn&#8217;t be too hard to figure out which I liked better. The holidays are coming &#8212; if there&#8217;s nobody in your family you like enough to get them my book or Clifford&#8217;s, you wouldn&#8217;t go wrong buying them Lisa&#8217;s. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] But all the publicity, of course, is currently associated with Lisa&#8217;s new book more than with any recent breakthroughs. As predicted, I&#8217;ve written a review of Warped Passages, along with Michio Kaku&#8217;s book Parallel Worlds, which has now appeared in American Scientist. You&#8217;ll see that these are very different books, and it shouldn&#8217;t be too hard to figure out which I liked better. The holidays are coming &#8212; if there&#8217;s nobody in your family you like enough to get them my book or Clifford&#8217;s, you wouldn&#8217;t go wrong buying them Lisa&#8217;s. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Clifford</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/comment-page-1/#comment-2640</link>
		<dc:creator>Clifford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:27:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/#comment-2640</guid>
		<description>Thanks Ed!

-cvj</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Ed!</p>
<p>-cvj</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/comment-page-1/#comment-2639</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:18:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/#comment-2639</guid>
		<description>This is slightly off-topic, but speaking of rotation curves, has anyone looked at the new analysis of the EGRET data? At a very prelimary first glance it looks pretty compelling: http://www.arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0508617</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is slightly off-topic, but speaking of rotation curves, has anyone looked at the new analysis of the EGRET data? At a very prelimary first glance it looks pretty compelling: <a href="http://www.arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0508617" rel="nofollow">http://www.arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0508617</a></p>
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		<title>By: Ed Hessler</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/comment-page-1/#comment-2638</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Hessler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2005 17:34:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/#comment-2638</guid>
		<description>CVj (Blame this greeting, the shortening of your name, on the CV explanation.  I LOLed when I read the comment about it and your name.):

I love the coincidence but not my forgetfulness. In the past few days I&#039;ve clipped two articles which mentioned Henrietta Leavitt who also struggled in ways that are barely imaginable to me.  She is another person for whom I&#039;ve considerable regard and respect, forcing me to ask again how they managed to do their work.  I think it has something to do with the love of science but maybe I ascribe too damn much to love.

I will look at the links again which I didn&#039;t read too carefully, spending too much time on the pictures. Thanks for the reminder.  Again, you have a very nice way about such matters.  I hope sometime that all of you will say a few things about your early years and experiences with science (since my home ground is K-12 science).

I&#039;m glad to learn that no one discouraged you or said a contrary word. I sometimes wonder just how many people have been dissuaded from a career path in science because of sometimes well-meaning/too often, ill-meaning and sometimes downright prejudicial comments.  They can have a chilling effect. Many of us are more fragile than we think.

Take care.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CVj (Blame this greeting, the shortening of your name, on the CV explanation.  I LOLed when I read the comment about it and your name.):</p>
<p>I love the coincidence but not my forgetfulness. In the past few days I&#8217;ve clipped two articles which mentioned Henrietta Leavitt who also struggled in ways that are barely imaginable to me.  She is another person for whom I&#8217;ve considerable regard and respect, forcing me to ask again how they managed to do their work.  I think it has something to do with the love of science but maybe I ascribe too damn much to love.</p>
<p>I will look at the links again which I didn&#8217;t read too carefully, spending too much time on the pictures. Thanks for the reminder.  Again, you have a very nice way about such matters.  I hope sometime that all of you will say a few things about your early years and experiences with science (since my home ground is K-12 science).</p>
<p>I&#8217;m glad to learn that no one discouraged you or said a contrary word. I sometimes wonder just how many people have been dissuaded from a career path in science because of sometimes well-meaning/too often, ill-meaning and sometimes downright prejudicial comments.  They can have a chilling effect. Many of us are more fragile than we think.</p>
<p>Take care.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/comment-page-1/#comment-2637</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2005 05:33:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/#comment-2637</guid>
		<description>Pyracantha, I would say it&#039;s about stereotypes more than importance (although some people may also rank &quot;men&#039;s work&quot; more important than &quot;women&#039;s work&quot;, of course).  I could easily imagine a male student telling an admissions officer that he wanted to design clothes, and being told &quot;Are you sure you wouldn&#039;t rather design ... racing cars?&quot;  Gender roles can be imposed from either side.

Suz, yes, two talks at MIT in fact:  the colloquium next Thursday (the 8th), and the cosmology seminar the following Tuesday (the 13th).  Drop by and say hi if you&#039;re in the audience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pyracantha, I would say it&#8217;s about stereotypes more than importance (although some people may also rank &#8220;men&#8217;s work&#8221; more important than &#8220;women&#8217;s work&#8221;, of course).  I could easily imagine a male student telling an admissions officer that he wanted to design clothes, and being told &#8220;Are you sure you wouldn&#8217;t rather design &#8230; racing cars?&#8221;  Gender roles can be imposed from either side.</p>
<p>Suz, yes, two talks at MIT in fact:  the colloquium next Thursday (the 8th), and the cosmology seminar the following Tuesday (the 13th).  Drop by and say hi if you&#8217;re in the audience.</p>
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		<title>By: Suz</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/comment-page-1/#comment-2636</link>
		<dc:creator>Suz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2005 05:20:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/#comment-2636</guid>
		<description>hey Sean,
I just noticed you are coming to give a talk at my school next week. Hope you have a nice time here when you come!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hey Sean,<br />
I just noticed you are coming to give a talk at my school next week. Hope you have a nice time here when you come!</p>
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		<title>By: Pyracantha</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/comment-page-1/#comment-2635</link>
		<dc:creator>Pyracantha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2005 05:02:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/#comment-2635</guid>
		<description>Regarding Vera Rubin and &quot;painting pictures of astronomical objects&quot; rather than doing real science: Well, as a &quot;career&quot; artist studying math/physics in middle age, that&#039;s all I ever will be able to do, no matter how much physics I study. I&#039;ve painted scads of trivial but pretty astronomical paintings. I can make art that is inspired by science, but I&#039;ll never really do any science. I think science is more important than art, which is also the implication of that anecdote about Rubin, as well as the unspoken, and not unfounded in this era, assumption that art is for girls.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding Vera Rubin and &#8220;painting pictures of astronomical objects&#8221; rather than doing real science: Well, as a &#8220;career&#8221; artist studying math/physics in middle age, that&#8217;s all I ever will be able to do, no matter how much physics I study. I&#8217;ve painted scads of trivial but pretty astronomical paintings. I can make art that is inspired by science, but I&#8217;ll never really do any science. I think science is more important than art, which is also the implication of that anecdote about Rubin, as well as the unspoken, and not unfounded in this era, assumption that art is for girls.</p>
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		<title>By: Clifford</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/comment-page-1/#comment-2634</link>
		<dc:creator>Clifford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2005 03:35:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/#comment-2634</guid>
		<description>Yes, Katie, I agree..... I&#039;m also grateful that I was lucky enough (I believe it was just luck) that nobody pointed out to me too early that I was from a racial group that&#039;s not supposed to be able to &quot;do science&quot;.... Otherwise I might have not  have continued on enjoying it and doing it, blissfully ignorant of the prevailing view. Of course, there were plenty of people lining up to tell me later implicitly or otherwise (I still encounter them), but it was already too late.... I had too much momentum.

-cvj</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Katie, I agree&#8230;.. I&#8217;m also grateful that I was lucky enough (I believe it was just luck) that nobody pointed out to me too early that I was from a racial group that&#8217;s not supposed to be able to &#8220;do science&#8221;&#8230;. Otherwise I might have not  have continued on enjoying it and doing it, blissfully ignorant of the prevailing view. Of course, there were plenty of people lining up to tell me later implicitly or otherwise (I still encounter them), but it was already too late&#8230;. I had too much momentum.</p>
<p>-cvj</p>
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		<title>By: Katie</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/comment-page-1/#comment-2633</link>
		<dc:creator>Katie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2005 03:28:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/#comment-2633</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m surprised every time I hear stories like this.  It makes me realize how lucky I am that no one ever told me I couldn&#039;t or shouldn&#039;t do math or science.  Thanks to all the incredible women who have faced discrimination and ignored it, smoothing the path for future generations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m surprised every time I hear stories like this.  It makes me realize how lucky I am that no one ever told me I couldn&#8217;t or shouldn&#8217;t do math or science.  Thanks to all the incredible women who have faced discrimination and ignored it, smoothing the path for future generations.</p>
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		<title>By: Clifford</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/comment-page-1/#comment-2632</link>
		<dc:creator>Clifford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2005 01:02:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/#comment-2632</guid>
		<description>Ah....Ed, and others, you should look at &lt;a href=&quot;http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/22/the-walk-up-mount-wilson/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; my post &lt;/a&gt; on Mount Wilson, in which I mentioned some of the great physics done up there (Hubble, etc), and focused on the crucial role of Henrietta Leavitt. She&#039;s also long-forgotten, having struggled to do all she did in what was firmly a &quot;man&#039;s world&quot;. See links given there, and consider also my pitch in the post and in the &lt;a href=&quot;http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/17/the-greatest-physics-paper/#comment-1729&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; comment thread of another post&lt;/a&gt; to have her paper considered as a perfect example of a great physics paper.

By time anyone realized that she should be put forward for a Nobel Prize, and wrote to her about it, she&#039;d already died from cancer.

-cvj</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah&#8230;.Ed, and others, you should look at <a href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/22/the-walk-up-mount-wilson/" rel="nofollow"> my post </a> on Mount Wilson, in which I mentioned some of the great physics done up there (Hubble, etc), and focused on the crucial role of Henrietta Leavitt. She&#8217;s also long-forgotten, having struggled to do all she did in what was firmly a &#8220;man&#8217;s world&#8221;. See links given there, and consider also my pitch in the post and in the <a href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/17/the-greatest-physics-paper/#comment-1729" rel="nofollow"> comment thread of another post</a> to have her paper considered as a perfect example of a great physics paper.</p>
<p>By time anyone realized that she should be put forward for a Nobel Prize, and wrote to her about it, she&#8217;d already died from cancer.</p>
<p>-cvj</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Hessler</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/comment-page-1/#comment-2631</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Hessler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2005 00:39:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/#comment-2631</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m looking forward to these reviews since I&#039;m a fan of American Scientist book reviews and often make a book purchase decision based on them.  I don&#039;t think I realized until I read a few reviews of Professor Randall&#039;s book what a difficult task she undertakes with reviewers mixed about how well she achieved it; one was quite negative.

What is there to say about scientists such as Lisa Meitner, Vera Rubin, Rosalind Franklin and their treatment,discriminated against because they were women and/or for religious differences/backgrounds. I just stand in awe, admiring them and their fierce determination as well as intelligence--ever grateful for their deep insights.  I also know that I can only dimly imagine the pain they must have experienced but they went on. What integrity and sense of who they were/are.

I agree with Professor Johnson on the Brenda Maddox biography of Ms. Franklin, a book I wish ended differently. Knowing how it ended made it a more difficult read,  i.e., her death from ovarian cancer, a result of her work and and an unknown/underestimted hazard.  She was a loss.  For me this book is must reading. It also has great insights into how different scientists do science, their use of data and evidenciary claims they are willing to make.  The absence of any reference to her by Wilkins, Crick and Watson in their Nobel speeches as well as subsequent publications borders on the unforgivable, no matter the contributions.

The three women mentioned here are simply remarkable. I&#039;m glad just to know a little more about them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m looking forward to these reviews since I&#8217;m a fan of American Scientist book reviews and often make a book purchase decision based on them.  I don&#8217;t think I realized until I read a few reviews of Professor Randall&#8217;s book what a difficult task she undertakes with reviewers mixed about how well she achieved it; one was quite negative.</p>
<p>What is there to say about scientists such as Lisa Meitner, Vera Rubin, Rosalind Franklin and their treatment,discriminated against because they were women and/or for religious differences/backgrounds. I just stand in awe, admiring them and their fierce determination as well as intelligence&#8211;ever grateful for their deep insights.  I also know that I can only dimly imagine the pain they must have experienced but they went on. What integrity and sense of who they were/are.</p>
<p>I agree with Professor Johnson on the Brenda Maddox biography of Ms. Franklin, a book I wish ended differently. Knowing how it ended made it a more difficult read,  i.e., her death from ovarian cancer, a result of her work and and an unknown/underestimted hazard.  She was a loss.  For me this book is must reading. It also has great insights into how different scientists do science, their use of data and evidenciary claims they are willing to make.  The absence of any reference to her by Wilkins, Crick and Watson in their Nobel speeches as well as subsequent publications borders on the unforgivable, no matter the contributions.</p>
<p>The three women mentioned here are simply remarkable. I&#8217;m glad just to know a little more about them.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Hornby</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/comment-page-1/#comment-2630</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Hornby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2005 22:43:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/#comment-2630</guid>
		<description>&quot;Lise Meitner did amazing work in Physics in spite of being female AND Jewish&quot;

True enough.  She also missed out on the 1944 Nobel Prize in Chemistry, despite playing a pivotal role in the discovery and subsequent explanation of nuclear fission.  The fact that she was a woman played no little part in this omission.

Pete</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Lise Meitner did amazing work in Physics in spite of being female AND Jewish&#8221;</p>
<p>True enough.  She also missed out on the 1944 Nobel Prize in Chemistry, despite playing a pivotal role in the discovery and subsequent explanation of nuclear fission.  The fact that she was a woman played no little part in this omission.</p>
<p>Pete</p>
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		<title>By: Clifford</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/comment-page-1/#comment-2629</link>
		<dc:creator>Clifford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2005 21:16:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/#comment-2629</guid>
		<description>This is a good point to say (as I have already done on the &lt;a href=&quot;http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/24/greatest-popular-science-book/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Greatest Popular Science Book!&lt;/a&gt; thread) that I highly recommend Brenda Maddox&#039;s excellent book, &lt;em&gt;&quot;Rosalind Franklin: Dark Lady of DNA&quot;&lt;/em&gt; for more of these issues, and &lt;em&gt; Great&lt;/em&gt; science, to boot.

-cvj</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a good point to say (as I have already done on the <a href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/24/greatest-popular-science-book/" rel="nofollow">Greatest Popular Science Book!</a> thread) that I highly recommend Brenda Maddox&#8217;s excellent book, <em>&#8220;Rosalind Franklin: Dark Lady of DNA&#8221;</em> for more of these issues, and <em> Great</em> science, to boot.</p>
<p>-cvj</p>
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		<title>By: citrine</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/comment-page-1/#comment-2628</link>
		<dc:creator>citrine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2005 21:07:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/#comment-2628</guid>
		<description>Lise Meitner did amazing work in Physics in spite of being female AND Jewish!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lise Meitner did amazing work in Physics in spite of being female AND Jewish!</p>
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		<title>By: Matt B.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/comment-page-1/#comment-2627</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2005 20:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2005/08/30/painting-pictures-of-astronomical-objects/#comment-2627</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m currently reading the Feynman biography by James Gleick, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679747044/qid=1125435323/sr=8-2/ref=pd_bbs_2/103-4515266-5264618?v=glance&amp;s=books&amp;n=507846&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Genius&lt;/a&gt;. In it, he relates the story of Feynman moving from MIT to Princeton and running up against questions about his type of Jewishness.

The discrimination against Jews pre-WWII was insane. To think that someone would be excluded from anything based off of random chance (Jewish, Woman, etc) makes me wonder how we&#039;ve gotten this far.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m currently reading the Feynman biography by James Gleick, <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679747044/qid=1125435323/sr=8-2/ref=pd_bbs_2/103-4515266-5264618?v=glance&amp;s=books&amp;n=507846" rel="nofollow">Genius</a>. In it, he relates the story of Feynman moving from MIT to Princeton and running up against questions about his type of Jewishness.</p>
<p>The discrimination against Jews pre-WWII was insane. To think that someone would be excluded from anything based off of random chance (Jewish, Woman, etc) makes me wonder how we&#8217;ve gotten this far.</p>
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