It seems to me that this discussion is skirting a basic issue, which is that, at least in the US, most workplaces in most industries still haven’t adjusted to the increase in women in the paid workforce — which means, aside from some of the more obvious effects, that men with kids often have more responsibility for daily childrearing activities than they would have a generation or two ago. (Of course, all of this applies to the way work is structured in industrial and post-industrial economies, where the expectation is that families disperse during the day to work, school, etc. and gather together only in the early mornings, evenings, and on weekends, if then.)

Also, forgive me if this has been pointed out, but some of the accomodations targeted at parents benefit non-parents, too. For example, I have co-worker who is currently out on family leave to be with her mother, who is in the last stages of a long death from cancer.

But, I’m sure you’ve had the spiel, if not in so many words.

And, here I am only half-joking. People do lose their jobs because they have kids, particularly women. And more people make the rational decision to wait for tenure and then find out it is too late, removing any element of choice.

PS: the airplane seat thing:
1) kharma;
2) make eye contact and smile. The little brat will be so surprised s/he’ll forget to cry and reflex smile nicely back. At least often enough to be worth the try.

See you soon hopefully R.

I think I agree with a lot of what you say, except for the “fairly self-evident” part. The selflessness issue is tricky as you point out in your “third hand” paragraph. It is true that I don’t worry about washable tablecloths when we eat out. However, the fact that you need to doesn’t make you selfless in my book. I think it says that you wanted a kid so much more than you wanted to be able to eat out wherever and whenever you could that you just went ahead and gave yourself what you wanted. I could call that selfish.

I think you are in danger of wielding a tautology here. If everyone acts to simply maximize their own perceived satisfaction, then selfishness and selflessness have little meaning for any of us, in any circumstances. My personal satisfaction weighs kids higher than fancy restaurants — yours does not. Both of us value teaching and expanding the boundaries of human knowledge more highly than making pots of money working for the Enron-du-jour. If someone sends money to Amnesty International or a Hurricane Katrina fund, it is not because they care about human rights or the plight people who have lost what little they had in a natural disaster, but because it gives them more pleasure than anything else they might have done with the money.

You are of course welcome to this position if you want it — but I am not sure that I would Insisting on it seems to rob the concepts of selfishness / selflessness of any explanatory power, since they are simply equivalent to “what people choose to do”.

I can’t imagine that you (or anyone I know) would have had a kid if they didn’t think that they wanted it more than the things they’d have to give up to have one. You could have sacrificed your child-wanting needs and been a little more selfless and donated more to the poor high-end restaurateurs who need your help

R.

I realized I did not yet state the obvious, that everyone has the right to make their personal decisions, and those should be respected. Certainly the question of childeren is deep within the personal and autonomous territory.

I had the impression that the dynamics of this thread is to agree that point is patently obvious and move on to other things. For me the constraints placed on those decisions is an interesting issue, but definitely a different issue altogether.

You’ll have to work harder than that to get under my skin. Maybe if I didn’t know you, …, but it’s too late for that

I wouldn’t say it’s gnawing at me. I actually wrote the first post essentially prompted by the Observer article. What I find odd is that I don’t really see any comments on the post from people complaining about people who have kids. they seem to be wished the best by pretty much everyone. However, I see a fair amount of defensiveness by people who do have kids.

I think I agree with a lot of what you say, except for the “fairly self-evident” part. The selflessness issue is tricky as you point out in your “third hand” paragraph. It is true that I don’t worry about washable tablecloths when we eat out. However, the fact that you need to doesn’t make you selfless in my book. I think it says that you wanted a kid so much more than you wanted to be able to eat out wherever and whenever you could that you just went ahead and gave yourself what you wanted. I could call that selfish. I can’t imagine that you (or anyone I know) would have had a kid if they didn’t think that they wanted it more than the things they’d have to give up to have one. You could have sacrificed your child-wanting needs and been a little more selfless and donated more to the poor high-end restaurateurs who need your help

I certainly wouldn’t criticize new parents for their constant kid stories. It’s exciting when you get something you want and you want your friends to share in your excitement. Actually I do share the excitement of my friends who have kids. I love to see them happy. I am allowed to poke fun about it occasionally though.

My post was, at its root, saying (not directed at you personally) “If you want kids please have them – I’ll pay taxes to make sure they get educated, won’t complain that my employer gives time breaks and financial gifts in the form of free tuition to employees who choose to have kids, while giving nothing of equal worth to me, will coo and ooh and ahh over them and over your stories of how cute they are or how interesting their most recent bowel movement was, and will willingly cover your class at the last moment if a kid-emergency should arise. Just don’t get in my face and accuse me of being selfish if I choose not to have a child myself.”

I have been mulling this issue of “selfishness” over — and I completely agree that calling the decision not have children “selfish” is wrongheaded.

However, it also true that even if we can *have* children for selfish reasons — a desire to perpetuate our genes, the idea that might be fun, or whatever else springs to mind, being a parent — even a bad parent — calls for a good deal of selflessness. (Time, money, the likelihood of treading on a small piece of Lego in the dark — the list is endless.) The reality is that every major decision a parent takes — where to live, where to work, whether to work,which house to buy, which car to drive, where to vacation, when to vacation, where to eat, when to eat, what to eat, will be influenced by the existence of your children. And a non-parent may make the exact same decision at each point, but they only have to consult their own desires (and their partners — but I am guessing that when Mark and his missus plan an evening out, “tablecloths that wipe clean” are not a big part of their decision-making when picking the restaurant. Or if they are, the plastic tablecloths are not counted as a plus).

And in that technical sense, I think the decision not to have children is selfish, insomuch as it is an avoidance of selflessness. I don’t mean this as a value judgement, just as a plain statement of a fairly self-evident fact.

On the other hand, it does seem to get under Mark’s skin a little

And on the third hand (every good parent needs at least three hands — they come with the eyes in the back of your heard, and the ears that warn you when things are Just A Bit Too Quiet), the sacrifices and compromises one makes as a parent are often more than repaid by the experience itself. So I suppose it is interesting for parents to label the avoidance of parenting as “selfishness”.

The part of fatherhood I was not prepared for, was how fast and how deeply I would fall in love with child — I remember dancing (gently!) round my apartment with him cradled in my arms just a few days after he was born, and I am *not* much of an apartment dancer. A few days I ago I marvelled when he came into my office and started writing numbers (the 3 was on its side, and the 5 backwards — but who knew where that outburst of numeracy came from) on my blackboard. (That’s right — my son, in my office, in my department!) He knows that “Daddy teaches big kids about numbers, and Mummy teaches big kids about words” and he wanted to try his hand at a spot of big-kiddery. Or the unalloyed happiness of a small boy running into his parents’ room and announcing “We are going to New York City today AND I AM SO EXCITED” — even when I could have done a few more minutes sleep.

There you go Mark, three stories about my kid and not a single mention of bowel movements Although looking at the last paragraph, I think parents of small children should be forgiven their assumption that all their friends will share their enthusiasm for the minutest detail of their children’s existence. Just as a friend in the throes of new love might share details that are excessive or embarrassing, parents are much the same. But I suspect it wears off — parents of teenagers may occasionally allow themselves an anecdote or two, but like all loves the relationship runs it course from infatuation to stability…

So Mark, I’m not trying to wind you up here; just trying to get to grips with something that seems to be gnawing on you And not just at the ankle level.

You are misreading my tone (could be my fault, could be yours) so let me be clear. I don’t resent the tuition. on occasion I do get annoyed that people don’t recognize this as a benefit but seem to think it is a right. I don’t think anyone can read into what I’ve been saying that I am not supportive of my colleagues’ (and your) choices to have kids. I am. It’d be nice if everyone was supportive (and I’m only asking for verbal support) of my choice not to. That’s all that’s being said here.

For my money, Moshe’s last comment hits the nail on the head. Both of you have the non-standard hours part correct, it seems to me, and I agree that it’s a good argument for help. I’ve always felt this way.

I can’t be drawn me into taking a controversial stance on this topic, because I don’t hold one.

All I’m trying to say is: Please have kids if you want them. Please don’t if you don’t. Neither choice makes you more or less selfish than the other as far as I can see. I can imagine extreme hypothetical situations in which that might change. None apply to us. If it helps, my wife and I will pledge that if the survival of humankind depends on us reproducing, we’ll step up to the plate and get it on with abandon – promise! I have a similar agreement with Famke Janssen, although her people have been dragging their feet a little getting the signed papers back to me.

But what is “selfish” is raising your kids like the Christian right do, homeschooling them, sending them to conservative colleges, and farming them out to right-wing campaigns. What is selfish is trying to live through your kids by forcing them to model your own ideas of what their lives should be like instead of living their own lives. What is “selfish” is assuming your choice is right for everyone, instead of allowing people to make their own choices in life.

What is selfish is me thinking my opinion makes any difference to anyone else at all, or that my own two kids will change the world in any way whatsoever. But, hey, we’re all selfish to some extent, now aren’t we?